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Do you want the truth?
Welcome to Do You Want The Truth? where we dive deep into the real raw stories from parents in the trenches of parenthood.
Season 2 is brought to you by Sam Strom and Freelance Journalist Zara Hanawalt, along with guest co-hosts such as Jaime Fisher.
Season 1 is brought to you by Paige Connell & Sam Strom. They bring you candid conversations with parents who share their experiences of parenthood and what they wish they knew before having kids. You'll hear the real stories. The stories that are typically reserved for best friends. The stories with TMI. We believe in the power of truth telling because when someone asks, do you want the truth? We always say yes. Join us as we explore the highs and lows and everything in between so you can feel less alone on your journey.
Connect with Sam: https://www.linkedin.com/samanthastrom https://www.tiktok.com/@samanthastorms
Do you want the truth?
Meet Our New Co-host Freelance Journalist & Twin Mom Zara Hanawalt [ENCORE]
In this special re-release, we are officially introducing a past guest as our new co-host. Learn more about Zara's story in this episode, and tune in next week for part two of her story.
Why does parenting in America feel so much harder than it should? Today, we’re joined by Zara Hanawalt, a freelance journalist who has spent nearly a decade covering parenting, motherhood, women’s health, and culture for outlets like Vogue, Parents, Glamour, and The Everymom. But even after years of writing about reproductive health, she was completely unprepared for her own journey into motherhood.
Zara gets real about her struggles with infertility, the challenges of carrying twins, and the prenatal and postpartum realities that no one warns you about (like PUPPP, Post Preeclampsia and so much more). She also shares her perspective on why the system—not mothers—is setting parents up to fail, how American parenting culture has evolved in the past decade, and what we can do to push back against unrealistic expectations.
Learn more about Zara here > https://www.doyouwantthetruthpod.com/our-guests/zara
Episode Highlights:
[02:00] Zara’s infertility journey & how she conceived twins via IUI
[09:30] The complications of a high-risk twin pregnancy
[18:45] Why postpartum hit harder than she ever expected
[25:10] Feeling completely unprepared for the overstimulation of motherhood
[33:40] The broken “village” and why moms today have less support
[40:15] Why parenting in America feels uniquely hard & how we can change the conversation
[52:00] The unexpected joy of realizing she’s her kids’ safe space
Links & Resources:
📖 Read Zara’s work in Vogue, Parents, Glamour, The Everymom, and more
📢 Follow Zara on Instagram & TikTok for more conversations on modern motherhood
👶 Learn more about fertility & postpartum resources at www.postpartum.net
Website: https://www.doyouwantthetruthpod.com
Connect with Sam:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/samanthastrom
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@samanthastorms
Connect with Zara:
Zara Hanawalt https://www.linkedin.com/in/zara-hanawalt/
TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@zarahanawalt
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/zarahanawalt/
Welcome back to the pod. This week we're doing a re-release of Zara Hanawalt's episode. Zara, welcome to the pod officially. Hi, thanks for having me. So we recorded this. Was it back in November 2024?
Speaker 2:It was late 2024. I know probably November.
Speaker 1:All right. So if you haven't heard the episode, this is that episode. We're going to be doing another part two to Zara's episode, probably even a part three at some point, because there's just so much to cover. But we hope you enjoy the episode and just wanted to welcome Zara officially as co-host to the pod, and we are now co-hosts together so excited, awesome, enjoy.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone Today we are so excited to be talking to Zara. Zara, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Sure, I am a freelance journalist and I'm a mom of twins. I primarily write about parenting, motherhood, women's health, reproductive health all those topics and I have written for outlets like Vogue, marie Claire, elle, glamour, cosmo, parents and many more.
Speaker 3:Elle, Glamour, Cosmo, Parents and many more. Amazing, and can I ask did you start writing about these topics before you became a parent, or was it something you got into after? I did.
Speaker 2:I started writing about these topics about 10 years ago and I started as a full-time job and I was mostly covering reproductive health and fertility initially and then I went through my own fertility journey and, you know, after having kids it turned into more covering actual parenthood.
Speaker 3:Interesting, so you were kind of already dipping your toes into the topic.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, what got you interested before you had kids in the topic.
Speaker 2:Well, I went to journalism school at Northwestern and while I was there I concentrated in health reporting and I really was interested in women's health and while doing that I discovered that I was just completely fascinated with reproductive health and fertility. So that became kind of my I would say, my greatest strength as a journalist. Kind of my, I would say, my greatest strength as a journalist. I initially was doing some fashion reporting out of school and then I sort of transitioned slowly into covering reproductive health and fertility. But my area of interest was always women's lifestyle. So I always wanted to write for a women's magazine, like some of the ones I just mentioned, having freelanced for.
Speaker 1:Amazing. It's like Andy Anderson from how to Lose a Guy in 10 Days.
Speaker 3:You alluded to this, but can you talk to us a little bit about what your journey trying to conceive was like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, I tried to get pregnant for about a year and a half before I conceived my twins, which I know that in the grand scheme of things, compared to what so many people go through, that's nothing, but it does meet the threshold. For you know infertility's clinical definition and I think what was so striking about when I was going through it was I was young, I was 28. And so all of my friends either fell into the category of not being anywhere close to even thinking about having kids, or they had tried to get pregnant and got pregnant immediately, or even got pregnant without trying. So it was very isolating in that sense. And at the same time I was writing about fertility and pregnancy. So I was thinking about these topics all day long, every day, but at the same time I just felt like I never had anyone who got it in my personal life. And then I had one loss, and then I conceived my twins via IUI and we got pregnant on the first try with IUI. So very, very lucky, but yeah.
Speaker 3:That's great, and did you feel so? I also did fertility treatments. I did IVF, though, and I never did IUI because I didn't have fallopian tubes. So you can skip right over IUI because it won't work. But did you have an idea of the process? Because I remember coming to the process and feeling really like lost and I was like a deep diving and all different Facebook groups and just trying to understand what are all these medications and how long am I going to be on them? And, yeah, how did you kind of one find community? Because, as you said, you didn't have many friends in this and going through this, but to navigate this as somebody who is probably pretty well versed in it but had never gone through it yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's exactly right. I was really well versed in the experience of infertility and I was, you know, I knew the acronyms there's so many acronyms, infertility and I knew them. But I also didn't know the intricacies of the experience. I didn't know the side effects of some things, I didn't know timelines of how anything would unfold and I think that's, I mean, a really universal part of the experience is just a lot of uncertainty. A really universal part of the experience is just a lot of uncertainty In terms of community. I would say I really didn't have one. I just really found it very isolating and, like I said, none of my friends at the time were going through anything similar.
Speaker 1:I think since then I've known people who have gone through it, but at the time it was just it was just kind of me and for anyone who's listening, who doesn know, like me, what is the definition of infertility. You said that you technically hit that. What is that definition?
Speaker 2:So the definition has changed to be more inclusive recently. But basically when I was going through it it was if you've tried to conceive for a year, you are at that threshold.
Speaker 1:And you said that it changed. What did it change to?
Speaker 2:It changed to you know I can send you what it changed to because it's a little bit long and comprehensive, but basically it is more inclusive of same-sex couples. It's a little bit more inclusive of people who maybe have genetic factors that require fertility treatments. Oh, interesting. So, yeah, it's just really much more inclusive of all the reasons why someone might need third party or assisted reproduction.
Speaker 1:And can that be changed again? Like I mean, we just went through an election and I know we don't get political on here, but I'm curious about you know you write about this Can that be changed? Can that go back or be different at another point.
Speaker 2:You know, I think it could. I do think that well, I mean, you never know what's going to happen with some of these. There's, like the bodies like ACOG or like the AAP that are making a lot of these decisions with just their expert panels, aap that are making a lot of these decisions with just their expert panels, and so I would guess that they probably won't be affected by who's in power, but you just never know. I mean, I think we're going to see some things that we never thought could happen happening.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and you know there's the term right, there's the term infertility or fertility, you know treatments et cetera. But then there's the logistics of it, the insurance of it, all all of these things right, and I think that is probably a place where we might see more potential for change. Unfortunately, not every state right now offers fertility treatments under insurance plans. Mine does. I'm in Massachusetts, so not surprising that we do have it, but not everyone does, right? I have friends who live in Massachusetts but their employer is in New Hampshire. Their fertility treatments are not covered.
Speaker 3:I didn't know that, yeah, and so it's very much based on like. That, I think, is a thing that could change depending on your carrier, where you live, etc. The company that you work for, right, that, I think, is an actual, real concern of a lot of people seeking fertility treatments are the logistics around that, and obviously I'm sure you know this as a journalist who speaks on this topic but the idea of the like fetal personhood part of it, where it's like you have embryos, right, I don't, I no longer have any embryos, but at one point I did, I had a lot of embryos frozen at my fertility clinic and that's a concern, I think, in this conversation probably yeah, yeah, and so IUI, you did one round, which is great. I mean, that's amazing Twins, identical twins.
Speaker 2:Fraternal twins. Yeah, I did IUI with Clomid, so Okay, okay, dropped a bunch of eggs and ended up with twins. But you know, people are still always asking me if twins run in my family and when I say no, they're like, oh, how did you get them? Then I'm like come on, guys, you know this by now.
Speaker 3:I know it's funny because I think people actually default to thinking fertility treatments these days. I'm a twin. My mother did fertility treatments, but I have twin cousins a year older than me. They did not. So it does happen. You know, spontaneous twins do happen, but I think this day and age most people are like I have an inkling that maybe there was something involved here, because even on things like IVF, people don't know this, but you might put one embryo in, but your likelihood of multiples is higher simply because of all of their hormones that you have going on the medications, et cetera. I think it's like 25% chance of multiples even with just one embryo. So there is a heightened chance of multiples in this scenario. Yeah, I didn't know that. Not everybody does.
Speaker 1:And nobody in your family had twins too, so you're going through fertility treatments. That's pretty isolating. And then how was your pregnancy with twins? Because I can imagine that's wild. You know my pregnancy.
Speaker 2:I think in the beginning of my pregnancy I almost wanted something to feel off because I just wanted to know I was pregnant. Like I wanted that constant reassurance and I think a lot of people who have gone through a loss before a pregnancy can probably relate to that but like I wanted morning sickness, I wanted the pain. I wanted like a little bit of something just to kind of reassure me every single day that I was pregnant, that I wasn't like imagining the positive pregnancy test. But it went very smoothly until the end and at the end I would say like all hell broke loose. It started with a rash on my belly. So I had this like very, very intensely itchy rash all over my belly.
Speaker 2:And at my OBGYN practice we did this thing where we would rotate through providers and I remember I was seeing the senior most provider at the practice, who happened to be a man, and I tried to talk to him about the rash that I was experiencing and he literally waved his hand like this and he said it's just stretch marks, your belly's getting kind of big, yeah. And then I went home and over the next few days it just got worse and worse and it started to kind of diffuse down my limbs and I started to feel a lot of itchiness around my wrists and my hands and my feet and so I called back because, again, I was a journalist covering these issues and I knew that there was the chance that something larger was going on. So I asked to be seen again and I got brought in for another appointment with the PA and I asked you know, do you think I should be tested for this condition called cholestasis? And she said you know, I think what you're showing looks pretty classic for another condition which is called PUP P-U-P-P-P. Can't tell you what it stands for anymore. It's basically this harmless condition that causes this really itchy, itchy rash for the mother Doesn't affect the baby, doesn't stick around after delivery or anything, but it's extremely uncomfortable. So yeah, back to the story.
Speaker 2:She said that what I had on my belly looked pretty textbook for that, but she did think that we should test for cholestasis as well. So she ran a blood test and I got a call from my doctor a few days later saying that I essentially had both of these conditions. So I had two conditions that cause itchiness, basically, and the cholestasis can cause stillbirth if it's not treated, and if you're not, it can at any time cause stillbirth. But to minimize the chances of that, they wanted to have me deliver at 37 weeks, so I went. You know, at that point my pregnancy basically became a full time job. I was in every single day for monitoring. I was like, yeah, every day, every day.
Speaker 3:How far along were you when you were diagnosed? I was.
Speaker 2:I want to say like 35 weeks, okay, something like that 34, 35, somewhere in there.
Speaker 3:But how frustrating to be dismissed by that first doctor. I feel like I've talked to so many women who've had a very similar experience, where they're brushed off when they bring up something and only later to be kind of you know confirmed that they actually were dealing with something fairly serious. And what you were dealing with sounds incredibly serious, Like the fact, if you hadn't advocated for yourself, what chances are you wouldn't have gone back till what your 38 weeks, I don't remember. I can't remember how soon you go at that point, like 35, like every two weeks you go in. So you know, with twins.
Speaker 2:You're in with twins. You're in every week at the end. You're getting a lot more ultrasounds. You're getting screened much more closely. But, I, you know, I think there's definitely a world in which someone could be brushed off like that and then just never bring it up again because they think that they're just being dramatic or they think that, you know, they're worried about nothing. So, yeah, I mean, it can absolutely lead to a dangerous situation.
Speaker 1:Luckily you knew about that condition, though, Like that's so random, Something similar happened to you too, Paige, right when you just knew about a condition.
Speaker 3:Well, I knew. I was like I think I have an accreta, and they were like I had a pretty traumatic situation. I was like, was this an accreta? And they're like probably. And I was like, okay, well, why didn't you say that? Like, isn't that going to impact me in the future?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny because I think when you go through fertility treatments too I don't know if you felt this way, zara, but I did so much deep diving. I was in all these forums and you're already in this space, so I'm sure you were much more well-versed than I was but every symptom I had I was online. I was like what does this mean? Is this okay? Is everything all right? And, similar to you, I had losses and there's this just underlying anxiety I had the entire time I was pregnant. Like up until the day my first biological daughter was born. I didn't think she would survive. Like I had it in my mind. I was like she's never going to get here and it was a real fear of mine because I'd had multiple losses and I was just. I was scared and I was deep diving. So I weirdly like knew all of these things and felt confident to bring them up to my care provider, but that's not always the case, right?
Speaker 3:A lot of women don't know how to advocate for themselves in those situations and a lot of people don't know, too, that you can say in a circumstance like yours because I had a similar situation where you see, like, multiple providers, you can say, hey, I'm not seeing that person again, like, don't put me with them for another appointment. Obviously, when you give birth, you don't always have the choice, but at least for your appointments you can choose not to see certain doctors and or nurses. That is something that you're able to do. You can say, hey, actually I don't trust this provider, I don't want to see them for any of my care. Going forward, I think I would have felt that way. I don't know how you handled it, but I think I would have felt that way. I would have felt very nervous to see that provider again, knowing that they didn't take me seriously the first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think that's why so many women turn to the internet for their information, and that is misinformation. In a lot of cases it's because they're so dismissed so often and it just becomes this trap that's really hard not to fall into, because you feel like you have to do your own research and you have to take matters into your own hands. But without the professional skills and sometimes even with the professional skills needed to decipher information and needed to understand what is real and what's not, it can be dangerous.
Speaker 3:And can I ask if your team, your care team early on, even your fertility doctors, talk to you about the realities of having multiples? Because I think that's something that's often not discussed very often, which is the risk of multiples, both for you as the mother but also for the children? I think you always hear like people are, like I can't, I hope I have twins, or you know, wouldn't it be great if I had a boy and a girl and then I could just be done? Like twins are my, my dream scenario, and oftentimes they are kind of put in this like positive light.
Speaker 3:But when I was going through IVF, my doctor he actually had twins himself and he said I don't ever want you to have multiples, he's like because the risk to you and the babies is so high. It is always like the thing I'm trying to like protect against is to not have multiples. And so once you found out you were pregnant with multiple children, did you, did your care team kind of guide you through what that could look like and the care that you would need to receive to make sure that you and the babies were okay?
Speaker 2:Not enough honestly, I would say so. My fertility doctor? Enough honestly, I would say so. My fertility doctor. When we were going through a consult and he was kind of explaining my course of treatment to me, he said something about you know, this is going to increase your risk of multiples. And then he pointed at me and he goes I see you smiling, Don't smile. That's not a good thing, because I had always had this strange hunch that I would end up with twins. I can't really explain it. I just kind of always knew. But then after that I asked if I should go and see an OB who was really well-versed in twin pregnancies and my reproductive endocrinologist said no, there's no need, just see whoever you've been seeing before. So I went back to my OB, who I did really like and who I found really compassionate and really thorough. But honestly I think that was a mistake, not seeing a high-risk specialist through the entirety of my pregnancy. At the end I had preeclampsia and she didn't know what to do, essentially, so she had to call yeah, she had to call a high-risk specialist for a consult because
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I think it wasn't exactly the preeclampsia that she didn't know how to handle, but it was about the degree of severity and it was just about that calculation of prematurity versus the risk to me and the babies via the preeclampsia. But, yeah, she had to call in and consult someone. She had to call in and consult someone and I'm honestly grateful that she had the humility to do that because, listen, I have a lot of respect for medical professionals my dad's a physician but they don't always have that. So, yeah, so I wish I had been either seen throughout my pregnancy by a high-risk specialist or consulted one at the end. So you had three conditions at the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you had three conditions at the end of your pregnancy, plus twins, which is already high-risk. So, wow, so did they induce you at that 37-week mark.
Speaker 2:No. So I went in at 36 weeks and my blood pressure was high. I think part of the reason that happened was because they could only find one heartbeat initially when they started my NST and they were just kind of like really looking around for the second one. So they factored that into account and they said you know, we'll send you home, like your blood pressure is high. But it could just be explained by the situation. But we need you back first thing Monday morning In hindsight probably not the best idea because that was two days that anything could have happened. But I went back in first thing Monday morning and my blood pressure had gone up even more. I was diagnosed with preeclampsia that day and I basically waited around for the entire day for the nurse to just go back and forth trying to get an answer about whether they would let me go or whether they would just keep me and have me deliver, and ultimately they decided they were just going to keep me and have me deliver that day.
Speaker 3:And you got induced, or did you have a C-section? I had a C-section, okay, yeah, and was that for any specific reason? Was it because of the multiples or the conditions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my, I believe they were both breach, or one of them was breach, I think they were. I think one was breach, one was sideways actually, now that I'm thinking about it. So, yeah, they had to do a C-section.
Speaker 1:You just had to do, you had like this on this, on that, it's just like.
Speaker 2:Seriously yeah, which is the reality of a multiple pregnancy. You just had to do. You had like this on this, on that it's just like seriously, yeah, which is the reality of a multiple pregnancy. I mean, you know it puts you at increased risk for pretty much every complication. And all of the complications I had were probably because I had multiples. Because, you know, I was 29 and I was healthy. I was sort of that like ideal pregnancy candidates, but I had multiples, so I was at high risk for everything.
Speaker 1:And Paige and I have both had C-sections. But, Paige, did you have a scheduled C-section or was yours?
Speaker 3:Yes, they gave me the choice. So I had an Acreta with my first and so I was seeing a high risk doctor who specialized in Acretas and I was at high risk of another one. And they were like you can deliver vaginally and then if you have an accreta, we'll just go in and do the hysterectomy. And I was like not for nothing, I don't feel like laboring and pushing for four hours just to end up in the OR anyways. I was like, if this is a high enough risk where we're talking about planning for the hysterectomy, let's just do the C-section. I was like I don't want. I was like I don't need to go through that trauma and then ultimately end up in the OR.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, it was scheduled. It was like a scheduled C-section hysterectomy like at one time. So there was a massive team there to perform both procedures and like transfusion teams and all those things, and so it was like very much scheduled. But I've done both and I really didn't like having a C-section. I don't know, zara, how you felt with the scheduled. I guess it was technically scheduled right, Like it wasn't emergent.
Speaker 3:But I didn't like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't have anything to compare it to, but I do wonder because, you know, I don't think I felt that euphoria after delivering that. A lot of people report. I wonder if part of that is related to the C-section.
Speaker 1:It's also you went in to get a checkup, right, and this is, I also had a C-section, but mine was emergent. Mine was like you got to go in right now. So it was different. Right, you go in. I've always wondered what it's like when you just go in and it's like, oh, you're not going home and we're taking the baby out right now. How was that for you?
Speaker 2:I mean, the biggest thing I remember is that I was starving the entire day because I was just waiting there and they wouldn't let me eat anything. They wouldn't even let me have water, and I was just like just give me a cheeseburger.
Speaker 3:Did they tip you on an IV, like you must have felt so dehydrated. Did they tell you on?
Speaker 2:an IV, like you must have felt so dehydrated. I believe so. I hope so. I can't entirely remember. It's all a little fuzzy, but yeah, I just remember being very, very hungry and thirsty and just kind of wanting an answer. I had planned, I remember I was supposed to go in at 8 am for an NST and to have my blood pressure checked and I remember thinking like, ok, I'll go do that. And then I had an appointment with my OB at like noon, so I was like I'll just, you know, take a book and I'll go get myself a nice breakfast somewhere and enjoy my last few days before I become a mom, and that didn't happen. What is an?
Speaker 1:NST Non-stress test. Ah, non-stress test. Ah, non-stress test. Okay, so you definitely had them.
Speaker 3:Sam.
Speaker 1:I did. We all have them. I just didn't know what they were called. I think they call them stress test but yeah, they might.
Speaker 2:Where they strap the little monitors onto you. I don't think I have that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I have it every week. I think at the end Like the last month I had it once a week a non-stress test or something like that. I don't know To your point, Zara. So much of it's a blur. Right Now, when people ask me I'm like I don't remember what happened. It's hard to remember and even those first days after you give birth, like that, I swear I blacked out, like I don't really even remember the hospital stays with either of my daughters, like what even happened I don't remember With them coming in and waking up.
Speaker 1:You didn't have the euphoria you mentioned, but did you have that immediate bond with them?
Speaker 2:You know, in hindsight I want to say that I did, but I think if I'm being completely honest to what I felt, then I would say probably not. I don't know. To what I felt, then I would say probably not. I don't know. I think I felt so prepared to become a parent because of the work I do.
Speaker 2:But all I had ever heard about the day you give birth is it's the best day of your life. It's, you know, the only blind date where you know you'll meet the love of your life. Like all those adages, I've never heard that one. And I remember those first few days being like what's wrong with me? Like why am I not over the moon right now? Why do I actually feel like I'm sinking into some sort of a depression? Or you know, obviously I knew that postpartum depression was a thing, but I didn't expect to feel like none of that connection or that joy or that euphoria that you only hear about, right, you only hear about that sort of experience post-birth. And I think in hindsight it was like, well, I had a very complicated delivery, I had a very complicated first few days of postpartum and of course I couldn't feel you't feel blind euphoria.
Speaker 1:I also wonder if there's something with C-section moms. I had a friend call me, I wanna say, the day we got home from the hospital and she was like hey, I didn't connect with my baby for months, it's okay if you don't. And I was like, oh, thank God, cause I remember my husband saying oh, I just love him so much, and looking at him and being like but you don't know him. Like I literally said that and he's like what are you talking about? We were in the hospital, so I think it's a lot more common, but I'm curious.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm sure there's no studies on it but how C-section moms are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I was just going to ask if you're curious about that being a difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I've never seen data to back that up. But no, I've definitely heard people theorize that you know your body isn't doing the same thing, so maybe that hormonal shift doesn't kick in in the same way with the C-section.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was just going to say to you. I think there's this like so much pressure put on, like the first time you see your baby and you hold your baby, and I thought that I had think I had that either, zara, like I don't. Like I said, it was kind of a blackout. I don't remember much, but I don't remember having that. I also think we don't talk enough about the level of exhaustion and demand on you immediately after going through this intense whether you vaginally, c-section, whatever it might be your body has gone through a battle and then you come out on the other side and you don't get sleep. You're feeding your baby, you're caring for another person and you don't even really get this time to recover in any meaningful way.
Speaker 3:Like I wonder if women were more supported in that postpartum period and had much more time to rest and to sleep right, like there's this idea too, which I understand, where nowadays and I don't know what it was like in your hospital but babies used to go to the nursery right Now they stay with mom, and my sister has epilepsy and so she actually sent her baby to the nursery because exhaustion puts her at a higher risk of a seizure, and so for those first few days she would send him overnight and she would get a really hard time from the nurses and she's like I understand, but like I really do need this rest, like my life is at risk if I don't get this rest.
Speaker 3:And I actually think that's the case for most women. And there's that running joke in the hospital right when it's like if they're not coming in to check you, they're coming in to check the baby, so you sleep in like 10 minute increments. Coming in to check you, they're coming in to check the baby, so you sleep in like 10 minute increments. You had two babies so I can't imagine the toll that took on you physically, mentally, emotionally. I imagine that was just a lot to deal with and the idea of like forming a bond with anybody at that point in time it feels like a really big ask, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and they even say with C--section, because I remember they told me they're like, oh, your milk isn't going to come in yet and I was like, wait, what so when? I guess it's like a thing I don't know if either of you heard that but because your body doesn't go through the process of birth, so it doesn't release the oxytocin and that whole thing, and so it can make it, so your milk doesn't come in immediately. Mine did, and and they were like, oh, that's really surprising, because your C-section Did.
Speaker 3:Your doctors I came in right away.
Speaker 1:Okay, you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm vaguely remembering that they had me pump pretty early on and they were surprised that I was producing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was like the same thing. So, paige, but I couldn't produce.
Speaker 3:with my first I had a lot of blood loss and they're like you, likely won't be able to produce right away. Your body's trying to like recover and so with that one I didn't. But with the C-section they never said anything to me, but it was. I think they probably didn't want to stress me out because it was during the formula shortage. They were probably like no, we just don't tell her.
Speaker 1:Don't tell her this part part, but isn't it crazy how much of your experience is dependent on your healthcare provider. Like, literally like doctor, doctor, nurse, state, whatever, it's all. We don't have like a uniform experience. No.
Speaker 3:With two of them. You said you felt really prepared when you did get home with your two new babies. Did you, yeah, did you feel prepared for what parenting those twins would be like?
Speaker 2:No, no. And you know I think that I was just thinking about this because I don't know if I was able to articulate this until recently. But I didn't realize how much I would miss myself in the postpartum period. I didn't realize that I would grieve for myself, which sounds so strange, and nobody tells you. You're going to feel that way but at the same time there's no way to prepare someone for that feeling. Nothing you can say can ever really make that make sense until you're going through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it never. It's not like you bounce back either, like there is no, you were that person and now you're this person, and it's also you're grieving your old life too, like, yeah, you can't just do whatever you want ever again. Yeah.
Speaker 3:No, but it's, it's neither, like yeah, it's the old life, it's yourself, but it's yeah, I think it's like it can feel so much bigger than that.
Speaker 3:When you're in those early days, it can really feel like so daunting to be like this is this, is it for me, this is it, this is a new life, and I think we don't hear it as often, so thank you for sharing that, zara. I don't think people say it out loud as often, and I also don't think men often experience it in the same way that women do, due to the expectations placed on new mothers and physically what that looks like, and so I think that it is important to call out, because I think a lot of people feel shame when they feel that grief because you're supposed to be so happy and this is supposed to be your greatest calling, and it's okay if it doesn't feel that way and it might not for a while, I think. I think a lot of people say they don't feel back to themselves for years, like years and years, because it's just parenting is all-encompassing those early days yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you're, did you.
Speaker 1:Oh, go ahead, Jen. Oh no, I was just going to ask if you what your support looked like when you got home.
Speaker 2:So immediately when I got home, it was kind of a mess because I had one kid in the NICU and one kid at home and my parents stuck around. I was, we were living in Chicago at the time and I grew up in Pittsburgh. I live back here now, down the street from my parents. They had come to visit after I delivered and I truly don't know what I would have done if they hadn't been there, because I would leave my son with them and I would go to be with my daughter in the NICU. And you know I don't know what else I could have done if I didn't have that support.
Speaker 2:My husband was also in an MBA program at the time and he was taking finals the week. We had our kids no. So yeah, and he was like I remember he was writing his final paper in the NICU with our daughter on his chest and you know I was on bedrest in our room with my son before we were discharged. So it was just like I don't know how anybody is supposed to do it alone, because even though I had two kids, even with one, there's just no way to do it without any kind of support.
Speaker 3:And you mentioned your daughter was in the NICU. How long was she there? She was there for three nights, okay, so not too long.
Speaker 2:But that's a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and that's scary. That's scary in itself having a baby that can't come home with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's scary. That's scary in itself. You know, when you're breastfeeding you're ravenous, and I think it was like 11 o'clock by the time I got back there the next day and I just remember the guilt of that was so overwhelming. And I also can remember walking up to my daughter in the NICU and feeling like, oh, that's so sad for that baby. She's just been here by herself this whole time. And then another part of my brain saying like that's not a baby, that's your baby. So it was just like it was just so disorienting and so strange.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that disconnect sounds. Yeah, it's strange to walk through, but maybe not unfamiliar for a lot of parents. When do you feel like you got your feet under you a bit, where you felt like, okay, that connection start to happen, not just maybe to the children, but also to just parenthood, this new reality? How long did it take you to get there?
Speaker 2:I think it happened in increments, I don't think it happened all at once, but I think there were. You know, the night that I had both of the kids at home for the first time felt like progress. The first time they smiled felt like progress. I think around that like three to four month mark, when I started to just feel human and I started to feel like I had a rhythm down. That felt like a huge change and that's when I really started to enjoy being a parent. But I can remember that first month, like when we hit the one month mark, people were like, oh, can you imagine it's already been a month and feeling like, you know, it's felt like a year. What are you talking about? But you know, since then everything has just gone by in the blink of an eye.
Speaker 3:But and they're big kids now- yeah, yeah Well, I know it's so funny, Everybody's tolerance for like what they'll call a big kid, you know, versus like a little kid, because they think it. Yeah Well, I know it's so funny, Everybody's tolerance for like what they'll call a big kid, you know, versus like a little kid, Cause I think it. You know, I call my big kids big kids, but then I see a 10 year old and I'm like, oh my gosh, you guys are still little. You know they're like seven, six, but it's all like just perspective to to what's going on in your house. But yeah, I'm sure that went by really fast and we also had a crazy last four years. So I think your parenting journey has happened at a unique time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of funny because I actually feel like in this I don't want to sound insensitive to all of the massive, massive suffering that came during the pandemic, but I actually remember those early months where we were quarantined really fondly now because you know, we were just home all the time and we were a family and that, like my husband, he was working but his work schedule was much lighter and he was 100% from home and I was working like very, very part time at the time but we just had so much time to just be a family and just spend that time together. So, as awful as it was globally, it was kind of nice in our house. I think a lot of people they were 15 months, okay, yeah, that's a lot of people have that experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I agree, sam. I think I remember telling people, you know, I never would have had this much time with my kids like this, because I would have had to go back to an office. And as much as working from home and taking care of toddlers was really, really hard. I also never would have had that amount of time with them, and so I was weirdly grateful for it, even though it was some of the hardest times ever for everyone. It's a lot.
Speaker 3:But how is your perspective on parenting as a parent yourself kind of now influenced, how you think about parenting kind of like on a global scale that you know you work in this space, you think about this all day long. How much does your own lived experience kind of direct where you go and how you spend your time in the work aspect?
Speaker 2:You know, I'm actually working on a story about that right now, about how parenting sharpens so many of the skills that you use in the workplace. We talk about mom brain in this pejorative way, we talk about the mommy track at work, but I have not gone back to working full time since my kids were born and I have no desire to. I keep it to like 20, 25 hours a week now and I feel like my career is in a better place than it's ever been because I am sharper and I'm smarter and I know what's worth my time and what's not. Now in a way that I never did.
Speaker 2:I know, you know I had tried freelancing before having kids and I was just taking anything that came my way. I was just like every single thing I would say yes to and I was just trying to cobble as much work together as I could. And now I'm a lot more selective about what I give my time to, I'm a lot more protective about my time, and I think that's shown in the quality of my work. So, yeah, I think it's just it's made me define what's important to me in a completely different way.
Speaker 1:And does your husband work full time? Yeah, this is something I've seen a lot too, because I also went part time in consulting, just because I. It's just so hard to put two full time jobs together with I don't know. And I know millions of people do it and I don't know how, because I don't know how you can do have two really demanding careers in one household at the same time, Like it feels like something has to give and Paige, I know your husband goes out of town for weeks at a time and, like you know, working full-time.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I just don't know how families I don't know how families do it.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I just don't know how families, I don't know how families do it. Well, I think it depends, right? I think this is the also like it gets into the socioeconomic portions of these conversations, right? Like, when you reach a certain tier or level of wealth, you're outsourcing a lot of this work. There's a lot of childcare support, but the average family can't afford the level of support required to really navigate these demanding careers. And I don't know what you all think, but I've found that even a career that's not quote unquote demanding feels demanding these days. Right, Like, our corporations ask a lot of employees. I'm always shocked at an interview process for, like, a mid level or junior level role and I'm like why is this? Eight interviews? This person is fresh out of college, let's you know. This is we're asking a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're asking a lot of people and I remember as some kid I worked with at one point was like Paige, because we worked in retail, he's like we're not curing cancer here. Okay, Like they're asking a lot of us at this point and like, just go live your life and worry about work less. But I think that's part of the problem, right Is the way our workplaces have evolved and how on everybody is all of the time, and how global our jobs are. And you know you're working with people across the country and the world and you're never off. And so it's like, yeah, you're going to have a demanding career and you're never allowed to turn off. And now I have kids too. I think we're setting everybody up to fail unless they're at a certain level where they can really pretty much outsource the bulk of the work that it takes to maintain a home and a family.
Speaker 1:But then so I also have thoughts about this. I don't know what you both think about this. I get outsourcing chores and everything. But my husband and I talk about this a lot. Where you're like, man, I feel like I'm outsourcing my childcare all the time, and then you don't really have time with your kids when you're like because you have to focus on work and it's like, well then, why did I have kids? I'm just going to outsource, you know, and it's not like a maybe it's a guilt thing on ourselves, but it's also you want, we want to spend time with our kid.
Speaker 1:We only have one, so it's much easier than what you both have.
Speaker 2:But I don't know, do you feel kind of the same way, or yeah, I mean I I yeah, I thought about hiring a part-time nanny a few years ago, and I just couldn't let myself do it at the end.
Speaker 2:And I don't really know what that's all about.
Speaker 2:I think part of it is when you work from home and when you work for yourself, there's this idea that you should just be able to do it while caring for your children, and I think even someone like me who thinks about this professionally and who is so aware of all these issues and what we expect of women and mothers even I am susceptible to that I can't let myself accept the help that I need.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think it's just, it's very, very complicated and I also think you can outsource a lot, but ultimately there is still so much cognitive labor that goes into managing what you're outsourcing so you can never really completely hand over those responsibilities. I mean, parenting is hard, no matter how much help you have and no matter what your village looks like and no matter what resources you have at your disposal. So I think that there's this myth that you can outsource your way out of the difficult stuff, but you can't completely. I mean, you can to some degree, but yeah, it's always a level of privilege to be able to outsource your way out of the difficult stuff, but you can't completely.
Speaker 3:I mean, you can to some degree, but yeah, and there's a level of privilege to be able to outsource and I just think, like I think about my parents, who both had demanding careers and worked full time but nobody was emailing them on a Saturday morning.
Speaker 2:You know like they just said that that didn't happen.
Speaker 3:There was no email. Maybe they had a beeper at the time, right In the 90s, like that just wasn't happening and we're so connected all of the time, and so I've heard women who say, don't even bother going part-time, because the company is still going to expect full-time attention, right, and so obviously, zara, you work for yourself. But I've talked to a lot of women who've gone part-time and they're like but the expectations are still that of a full-time employee and I feel like I can never really catch up and I think we just do a really big disservice to not just parents but like all employees, right, like we all deserve to have this life outside of work and it can be really, really hard to find. I'm sure you talk about this in your work, zara. There's so many topics I'm sure you talk about and tackle. It feels like parenting, is this, like there's this never ending thirst to understand how everyone else is doing it.
Speaker 2:And how best to tackle it. Yeah, and social media has just given us, I think in some ways it's given us community around parenting and motherhood, but in many, many ways it's just given us an even more unrealistic set of expectations, I think, especially now. I think we've kind of taken a turn for the worst recently, so I agree that what my toddler eats in a day.
Speaker 1:I want to pull my eyes out because my toddler eats a yogurt in a day and I'm like, oh, you're telling me that you're yeah, anyway, do you think this is you? Yeah, they're having, like pork loin, a unique challenge to kind of how we parent in America, or is this something that you're seeing globally, I think?
Speaker 2:you know, I think that we have a little bit of a reductive way of talking about it, like people always say, like parents in France don't do this, they probably do. We probably just glorify, you know, especially told me, yeah, yeah, I think we glorify the European way of parenting. Actually, in my opinion, I think Asian parenting is a little bit more of a model, but that's a different topic. But you know, I think parenting is hard, regardless. Wherever you live, wherever you are, it is hard. But I do think that American parents have just unnecessary complications thrown in their way and I think a lot of that is, you know, the big stuff like no paid leave, like a crazy child care landscape. But I also think that there's just these very specific expectations of parents in America, especially mothers in America.
Speaker 2:I was just today, I was on Facebook and I was in this mom group I'm in and somebody commented about traveling to a family member's house for Thanksgiving and was asking about all the toys she should bring, because the house that she was going to didn't have a lot of toys or things to keep kids entertained, and everyone else was chiming in with all these ideas of like magnet tiles and coloring books and Play-Doh and this and that. And I, you know, coming from a different culture my parents are immigrants from India I never have to do that with my kids because the expectation is more that everybody's gonna get in there and entertain the kids and everybody's gonna spend time as a family and it's not this like the kids have to be off in a corner doing something child friendly the way it is in America. So I think you know there's a lot wrapped up in it, but it's it's so funny.
Speaker 3:You say that because I made a video over the weekend and I just in, like a turn of phrase, said, oh, chasing my kids around at a family party, and what I meant by that was like keeping them from falling down a flight of stairs because the house is not baby-proofed at all. I have a two-year-old right, all those things, and so it wasn't like literally chasing a child around. But a man commented and said if you need to chase your children around, then you clearly haven't been a good parent, because your children aren't well-behaved to come to a family party. Like your parenting is subpar or whatever.
Speaker 3:And all the women were like, oh my gosh, like this narrative is so prevalent, right, like the whole idea of like don't bring your kids on a plane unless they know how to act, and it's like, well, they've never been on a plane before, so they don't know how to act. It's this idea that it feels so unfriendly to parents here and to children, but in particular women, right, and so, yeah, the idea that you have to bring things to entertain your child so they don't disturb anybody else is kind of sad. It's like, why don't we want to spend time with those children, right, like people will beg for grandkids and then like not want to entertain them. It's this really strange dynamic that I think you're right really is not not maybe not unique to us, but definitely prevalent here in the US.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think you know you see moms with backpacks full of stuff to entertain their kids and all their snacks and everything in the United States. And as much as I don't want to be that person, that's like France has it all figured out? When my family went to France when my kids were four and we didn't see anybody doing that, and we also I think I mentioned it before when we spoke we went to a few parks while we were there and they were all these very simple structures where they were surrounded by benches and parents were just sitting and talking to each other and the kids were playing, and it was very safe and it wasn't overwhelming. It wasn't that American playground where you have to, like you know, run in a million directions and like, crawl under a structure and climb up something else and still not be able to keep an eye on both of your kids, or all three of your kids, or four of your kids, or whatever the case may be, at once, and it's just incredibly stressful.
Speaker 1:It's just like and then they each get stuck in a different part of the tower and there's like a rope.
Speaker 3:Well it's not even that too. It's like there's been a lot of really viral social media videos where, like people will be like there's this mom at the playground and she just spent the whole time reading a book. She wasn't even watching her kids, and it's like, but that's kind of the point of the playground. Right Is to allow your children to play and to be children and not necessarily have to be entertained by their parent 24-7. And so it does very much feel like in our society it's like people will either tell you you're too hands-on or too hands-off and you can't really win, and it feels really difficult to navigate. For sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really curious Can we go back to Asian culture having it right? I want to hear a little bit more about that because I think I agree with you on there. So I'm curious.
Speaker 2:My son went to Chinese school, so we have a lot of you know I don't feel comfortable getting too deep into it because I don't have the facts in front of me, but I just think postpartum care is better, I think. But I just think postpartum care is better. I think you know the expectations of intergenerational caring for children. I think, again, I see a lot of it with my parents and with their friends. You know, being Indian, the way friends step in to help each other out is something that I just don't see here. So, yeah, I think there's just a lot kind of tied up in it.
Speaker 2:I think America is extremely hyper individualistic and I think part of it also is we have all these conversations about boundaries right now and I think, like when I'm out and about and I see a kid, there's often a part of me that wants to help the parent, you know, wants to hold a door or wants to like smile at the kid just to make them laugh or something. But it's like, am I going to get in trouble for that? Because people are so protective about their kids, as they should be. But I think this American idea of boundaries is almost getting in our way a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, that's also like they're your kids. They're your problem. It's more of that. You're focused on capitalism. Individual. I am working toward retirement. My family is working toward this. Rather than yeah, I would agree yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I would agree. Yeah, Well, I was just going to say. There's this ongoing conversation on the internet like my paid village or like the lack of a village, and there's also criticism of that conversation because of that individualistic nature where a lot of people are like, okay, you're asking for a village, but you don't actually want to participate in the village right Villages are reciprocal.
Speaker 3:So, like you can't just get care from someone else, you also have to provide care, and it goes two ways. And so I think that's probably the missing conversation too, which is I'm sure you see this a lot in your work but parents all over the internet are saying what happened to the village? What happened to the village, and the pushback on that is well, are you participating in the village as well? Are you coordinating meal trains or picking up your parents from the airport when they need a ride, whatever it might be, whatever that looks like to provide care and time and effort to other people? I think that's probably a part we maybe don't acknowledge as often and is likely a big part of this experience overall.
Speaker 1:I think also the intergenerational piece of it is important, because when you're in the thick of it and you're in the trenches, it's really because I feel guilty. I have friends who live close to us who have given birth or adopted recently and I'm like we can't figure out a time to go over and see them or help them, and they don't want to drop baby off because it's nap time or whatever, and so the mail train is definitely helpful. But I think it is one of those things where you're like I have to take care of my kid because I don't have help, but I want to give you help. So I think that's where generational support where there are retired people or people you know, childless people who come in and help- yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm traveling for the holidays. Right now I'm at my sister-in-law's house and they are out with my son, and it's been like the best experience. I'm like I have gotten to relax this whole weekend, which is like a first for us, because I've also been like hey, can you guys like asking for help too, which is newer for me. To be like, hey, do you want to do this? Do you want to put them to bed? Do you want to read them a book? And they're happy to do it. And I think I'm curious if part of that does go back to boundaries, like they don't want to overstep. They don't want to be like, oh, I'll do this because they don't want to. You know, I don't know encroach.
Speaker 3:Zara, we've talked a lot about the difficulties of parenthood and the unexpected nature of parenthood, but something we'd like to ask everyone is what was an unexpected joy of parenthood? What's something that maybe you weren't expecting to find joy in along this journey?
Speaker 2:My gosh, so many things. I mean I don't even know where to begin, but like, oh God, I think feeling like you are your kid's safe space is the coolest feeling I've ever experienced. When your kid, like my kids, are in this phase now where they come into our bed in the middle of the night every night, and just thinking about that and thinking about the fact that they wake up in the middle of the night and the first thing they think about is I want mom. That is just the best feeling in the world. Want mom, that is just the best feeling in the world.
Speaker 2:I also think that now, the phase of parenting I'm in, where I can kind of step back and observe them a little bit more and just see how they interact with the world, is like that. You know, I think parenting doesn't come with a lot of feedback. You don't always know if you're doing a good job day to day, but I think when you can step back and you can watch your kid have a positive interaction with someone, that's like, oh, I'm doing a good job and this is paying off. All the work that I'm putting into this is paying off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't thought of that before. It is kind of like you don't get a performance review.
Speaker 3:No, you don't tell your kids an adult and then you tell their seven and they're like you're the worst. My son this morning at the bus stop was like I want a drone for Christmas and I was like I don't think that's happening. And he literally looked at me and goes Christmas is about joy and that would bring me joy. And I was like that is. I was like all right, dude. And he's like you're no fun. And I was like okay, thanks for the feedback have.
Speaker 1:My four-year-old also asked for a drone and when I told my husband he's like that is so cool, he's like that's, and I was like no, he is four years old. What does he need a drone for? How does he even know that?
Speaker 3:word. That's so funny.
Speaker 2:And I also have a two-parter for you or one or the other. What's something you wish you knew before having kids, and kind of the advice now that you give other new parents or expecting parents I wish I knew that I would feel really lonely, but also really want to be alone all the time, like I wish I knew that I'll never find anyone who knows exactly what my parenting experience is like, and I think you have to get okay with that. You have to realize that your challenges, your approach, your idea of balance is never going to be completely replicated in anyone else, and that's okay. But at the same time, like I didn't know how overstimulated I would be all the time and I think you know if I had been prepared for that, that would have been nice.
Speaker 2:I think my advice for other parents is like the generic advice would be you know, tune out everyone else's opinions and just focus on what feels right for you. But slightly more micro advice if somebody is about to have a baby, I would say take an entire day and just be by yourself, like just you know, soak up your own company because, like we talked about before, the you that you are right now is not going to exist once you have that baby. So just enjoy your company and get to know yourself for one day, just one day. But you know, don't, don't interact with anyone if you can help it.
Speaker 1:Go to a hotel Order room service.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. I wish somebody had given me that advice. I know, obviously you didn't get that, like you didn't even know it was your last day, right like that. Yeah, you didn't get that opportunity, so that's really hard, oh goodness. Well, sorry. Thank you so much for your time. This has been such a fun conversation thank both of you.
Speaker 2:This was so fun. Of course, we'll talk soon, all right, bye, bye.
