Do you want the truth?

Pride, Parenthood & Surrogacy: @BroadwayHusbands’ Journey to Fatherhood [ENCORE]

Share episode

Send us a text

In honor of Pride month, this is an encore release of Bret Shuford (of @Broadway Hubands fame) episiode.  Bret Shuford, renowned for his performances in Broadway hits such as Wicked, The Little Mermaid, and The Lion King. Bret shares his personal journey to parenthood through surrogacy thanks to one of his friends, offering a heartfelt glimpse into the challenges and triumphs they've encountered. We learn some of the most interesting things about insurance, gestational carriers and the overall surrogacy process. 

Delving into his illustrious career, Bret discusses the delicate balance between the demanding schedule of a Broadway performer and the joys of family life. 

Bret Shuford, Broadway, Wicked, The Little Mermaid, The Lion King, surrogacy, theater career, inclusivity, representation, performing arts, family life, authentic storytelling, LGBTQ parenting, gay dads, surrogacy journey, Pride Month podcast, Broadway dads, queer fatherhood, gay family, surrogacy costs, intentional parenting, LGBTQ family building

Long-tail keywords:
how gay couples have kids through surrogacy, Broadway actor talks LGBTQ fatherhood, real stories of gay dads and surrogacy, LGBTQ+ parenting podcast episodes 2025, what surrogacy really costs for same-sex couples, raising kids as a gay couple, Pride Month parenting stories, surrogacy advice from gay dads, how to start a family as an LGBTQ couple, Bret Shuford fatherhood interview

Support the show

Website: https://www.doyouwantthetruthpod.com

Connect with Sam:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/samanthastrom

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@samanthastorms

Connect with Zara:

Zara Hanawalt https://www.linkedin.com/in/zara-hanawalt/

TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@zarahanawalt

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/zarahanawalt/

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Do you Want the Truth? The podcast where we dive deep into the real, raw and unfiltered stories of parenthood. I'm Paige Connell.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Sam Strong. We bring you candid conversations with parents who share their experiences of birth, fertility and parenting.

Speaker 1:

We share the stories that are typically reserved for your best friends, offering a sense of connection and understanding.

Speaker 2:

Here we believe in the power of truth-telling, because when someone asks, do you want the truth?

Speaker 1:

We always say yes. Join us as we explore the highs and lows and everything in between, so you can feel less alone on your parenting journey. Today we're joined by the incredible Brett Shuford, Broadway star and co-creator of the popular Instagram account Broadway Husbands. Brett has graced the stages of Wicked, the Little Mermaid and the Lion King, but today he's here to share the heartfelt journey of building his family through surrogacy with his husband.

Speaker 1:

Brett opens up about the real behind-the-scenes journey of navigating surrogacy, from the finances and logistics to the emotional highs and lows. He shares the practical side as well of how he and his husband made it all work, from finding a surrogate to understanding the costs involved and how they balance it all while also preparing for fatherhood. It's an honest and insightful look at what it really takes to create a family through surrogacy and how those decisions continue to impact their lives as parents. And we also talk a lot about Disney. Brett shares some insider tips on navigating Disney like an expert, because he is from a Disney family. So who better to spill the secrets than somebody who has actually spent plenty of time at the parks? And so, whether you're looking for practical parenting advice, a behind the scenes. Look at surrogacy or just some fun Disney hacks. This episode has it all.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back everybody. Today we're here with Brett Shuford. Brett, can you introduce yourself and give our audience a little spiel about yourself, who you are? Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Hey, I'm Brett Shuford and I'm one half of the account Broadway Husbands. My husband, Stephen, and I had our son two and a half years ago and we love to create content, sharing our joy of family and life. We spent both of us 25 years in New York City working on Broadway. Stephen was a principal dancer at New York City Ballet when we met in 2006. So we have a lot of experience in history and telling stories on the big stage and now we get to do it in short form content and we have really enjoyed building this community and creating representation for LGBTQ families. And, yeah, it's, our big mission is to spread as much joy as we can.

Speaker 1:

Brett, I don't mean to start the episode off this way, but I'm dying to ask this question because you're wearing a hat. Is that Mickey Mouse on your hat?

Speaker 3:

It is Okay.

Speaker 1:

And I saw a lot of Disney in your content. Are you a Disney?

Speaker 2:

fan, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

You were in Beauty and the.

Speaker 2:

Beast right.

Speaker 3:

And Little.

Speaker 1:

Mermaid probably. I just got back from our first Disney trip with our four kids, literally two days ago. Just got home, welcome back, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Barely barely like by by 4 PM every day, the four year old and two year old were actually like just melting down. I'd be like we've we've hit that point of the day where they are their last cause. At this point we're just going to keep filling up this popcorn hope to keep people quiet. But I'm always in awe of people who are like big Disney people because it's so, it's a lot of work, but maybe if you would go more frequently, it's not. So I would just love some perspective from a Disney family.

Speaker 3:

Well, we lower our expectations, right now. There's only, we only have one kid, right? So it's very different when you have three and you have different age groups and you know, in that situation I'd be like inviting the grandparents and like you take the older ones off, we're gonna go do nap time or whatever. But I think, just understanding, like I think that because it's so expensive to go to the parks, I think people feel like they have to do everything and so we've got to see everything because we're spending all this money.

Speaker 3:

But sometimes, like, just the experience of being there and like the environment is enough and I we've enjoyed, like we took maverick to his first disney park when he was three months old. We took him again when he was like six months, but we maybe rode like two things right like we. We spent time like in air conditioning and he slept a lot, you know. So I think just like lowering expectations and honestly I think it'd be more fun to go and leave the kids behind, which is funny.

Speaker 1:

That's what I said. That's what I said after I was like I would come back without them for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, definitely lowering expectations. I will say we went to Disney and the number one ride, their favorite ride, was the carousel and I was like, guys, we could do this anywhere, like we could do this anywhere, and they did it like six times and I was like this is crazy. I was like we just spent so much money to ride this carousel. It's their like highlight of this whole trip that and the Cinderella lunch. We did the lunch in the castle.

Speaker 3:

In the castle. It's so nice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have three daughters and they were like, they were so happy to see all the princesses.

Speaker 3:

With four kids. It's really fun as the Disney cruises because that's what people were saying. The Disney cruise is this really structured, safe environment where they you know people can kind of do what they want. And then the kids club is amazing, because you can literally check your kid in at the beginning of the day and the kids never want to leave. So you could have a whole day, but full without the kids. Oh yeah, so you could have a whole day, but full of kids.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, maybe we'll have to check that out. We were like we'll do this again when the youngest is maybe five, like two and a half, maybe not, but maybe five.

Speaker 3:

It's hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sorry to sidetrack us, but I saw the hat and I've been dying to ask, since I was watching your content, how people do this, because I'm exhausted.

Speaker 3:

And we would get three days. Yeah, I can just lots of naps and, like you know, we've never stayed for fireworks with Maverick, Like he's not yet to see the fireworks, like we were back in the room and going to bed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, or you can get one of those rooms at the like Bay Lake that faces the fireworks, like you know. Hack it a little bit. Yeah, totally, we're so excited you're here and you know I I would love to learn a little bit more about what the process was like for you all deciding to become parents and how you ended up. So I'm an adoptive mother and so oftentimes people assume that LGBTQ families are going to adopt or surrogacy. Like how did you guys explore that conversation together and kind of navigate it? Cause it's a tricky one to have, it's very complex and they're both paths that people aren't like super familiar with until you start them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and there's a lot of like nuance to it that people don't recognize. They think it's like oh you know, we get a lot of people who, because we did choose surrogacy in the end and I'll get to how but we got a lot of people trying to guilt us into not adopting and saying there's so many kids in these homes, it's like, but it's not that simple, it's not like here's a bunch of kids in these homes and like here's our home, come in, right, it's. It's very complicated, and so we started the discussion around wanting to grow our family, maybe two years into our relationship, so like 2009 or 10, but we but we at the time we're working on Broadway, we weren't. You know, it's a volatile career path, you know it's like you're like when are we going to make money?

Speaker 3:

And we always thought we would adopt. And then one day, steve, we were watching this movie. We're very much into movies and pop culture and we were watching this Molly Shannon movie. It's called the Other People Great movie. She plays a mother who gets cancer and her son who's like an older I think he's a teenager is gay and she's dying. And she says to him on her deathbed I want you to come, promise me when I'm gone you'll come home and see your sister, because when you see your sister you'll see me in her face.

Speaker 3:

And that was the moment. Every time we talk about it I get emotional. But that was the moment Steven was like I want to have a biological child. And I was like, yeah, I did, let's try it, let's see how far we can go, like, let's see what we can do. So then we started really looking into going the biological path in surrogacy and we met a fertility doctor and then just talking to him, like I was not going to even go, I was in my mind it was going this is never, we're never going to be able to afford this and met with the doctor and he was like you know, you don't have to have the money up front. You could just start the process. We could just do, you know, test your sperm and then see if we can find an egg donor, and that's one stage right, and then we can make the embryos and it's like, oh right. In my mind it was like you have to have $200,000 up front and fully loaded, and that really kind of-.

Speaker 2:

Is that what it costs for surrogacy and IVF and all of?

Speaker 3:

that that's probably on the high end.

Speaker 1:

I was going to say it depends sometimes.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, I mean, if you're in the end, like, depending on how long it takes, how many miscarriages you have, if you decide to do twins, if you decide to, you know how do you decide to create the embryos? Because there's a lot of technology. I mean, like I said, it's very nuanced, no idea. It could cost up to $250,000, you know, for one journey, depending on which route you go.

Speaker 1:

I did IBS, but I'm in Massachusetts and it's fully covered. It's law here that employers have to cover that as a benefit in your health insurance. So you know I paid certain things out of pocket, but the bulk of it was covered. If it wasn't, it would have cost me 40, 50, 60.

Speaker 1:

Is that just for women? No, it's not just for women, it's for men too. If you're having fertility issues, if it was my husband's sperm, it would cover the cost of these things. I was the issue. It was identified that it was me, but I was going to say this does not cover LGBTQ families, because and so I want to make that clear to anybody who's listening which is that, like oftentimes, people are like oh, fertility, like it's so normal these days and it's more accessible and you have insurance, but that's not true oftentimes for families that are not in a heteronormative relationship, and so the cost is vastly different, and I don't think people are truly aware of that.

Speaker 3:

No, and I think it's. It's sort of again, like you know, I remember when we were trying to trying to start the journey, we'd be like, well, we're just trying to start when we're ready. And then I loved when our friends would say, oh, you're never going to feel ready. And I feel like that's so easy for you to say Like we don't have the money, we don't have like we have to figure out financially when it's a good time to invest in this, because, you know, people just go.

Speaker 3:

Well, insurance, it's like no, but we are not considered, even though it is a fertility issue. Being gay, we are not. Is a fertility issue being gay? We are not considered a fertility issue when it comes to insurance. And then you know, leave it state to state. Who knows right? There are very few corporations that will provide insurance to cover it. I think it's like Google and Apple, you know, like those two or something. But it's hopefully going to change, yeah, so, anyway. So we decided to start the journey and we weren't sure how, you know, we got to the embryo stage and once we were there, we were like, okay, well, we're going to have to see if we can refill the coiffures and try to save up some more money to get to the next stage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, some people. I know people who've taken out loans who put it on like credit cards.

Speaker 1:

I I know people who've taken out loans who put it on like credit cards. I mean it is incredibly expensive. It can be incredibly expensive to any kind of fertility journey. It can be incredibly expensive. And so, to your point, it's not as simple as just being ready Financially. There's a barrier, and it's not a small one, and I'm sure that plays a big part into the timing of your situation as well. So how long, I guess, was that between kind of the embryo stage and sorry, because I'm naive to this side of things? So when you do surrogacy, is it always IVF embryo, or are there surrogacies with IUI, or how does that all work?

Speaker 3:

I mean there's very few legal surrogacies where the carrier is the same as the donor right.

Speaker 1:

Oh right, so IUI wouldn't work Right.

Speaker 3:

So the egg donor is usually a separate person. It's now more common than when we started for you to actually have an open egg donor, so you actually get to meet them and talk to them.

Speaker 2:

We have an anonymous egg donor.

Speaker 3:

So we, unless Maverick at some point Maverick is our son decides at some point to do like 23andMe and figure out who his donor is, we don't have access to her. So a lot of people just assume like we're going to take one of the dad's sperm, we're going to put it into an egg in a carrier. It's a separate thing, right? Because again, really all we really needed was an egg and we needed someone to carry the egg or the embryo. So there's two parts to it and I think people don't really realize that.

Speaker 2:

Is it kind of like going to a sperm bank? Is it a similar situation?

Speaker 3:

With the eggs? Yes, yeah. So you, you're kind of going through. Do you get the?

Speaker 2:

binder. I don't know, is the binder real? I've seen the binder.

Speaker 3:

I mean it was a digital binder, but yeah, I've seen the binder so like our we, we never went to like a, so it's interesting there's a whole sub market of like finding egg donation places that only went to Yale or only do it. Wow, only like have an IQ above whatever right Like, which I think is so like people spending fortunes to get those kinds of eggs and you're like but isn't a lot of that like nurture?

Speaker 1:

environment.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, for us our fertility clinic had their own egg bank and they sent us like three profiles. They're basically like we'll send you three profiles. If you don't like those, we'll send you three more. Literally, we chose the first profile.

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow, yeah. What was it about that one?

Speaker 3:

You know it's interesting. When we first saw her profile, I was like no, she has Italian blood and like in her DNA. And I was like I'm Irish. No, she has Italian blood and like in her DNA. And I was like I'm Irish, like Scottish, even like German, and I'm like there's no Irish. So we skipped and we looked at the other two profiles and I was like these aren't a good fit.

Speaker 3:

And the woman from the clinic wrote back and said go back and look at the first profile one more time. And we went back and we looked and there was a video that we didn't see the first time. So we watched this video and she's talking to the camera and she says you know, I wanted to donate my eggs because my husband was adopted by a gay couple and the gay couple always told us that they wish they had had, they wish they'd had their own children, and so I wanted to be able to make that possible for another gay family. And I was like okay, and then she says I'm a twin and me, brett, I'm a twin. And then she said she was like I have a twin brother. And then she said I used to be a ballet dancer.

Speaker 1:

And we were like so we were like I didn't know, is that normal for them to come with a profile like that, to have like a video and all that, or I don't?

Speaker 3:

know, I think it's optional. I think it's always kind of an option, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Interesting Cause.

Speaker 3:

usually you can only see photos of them as a kid. You never get to see photos of them as an adult.

Speaker 2:

We saw them as an adult because I told my friend we were going through, my lesbian friends were going through and they were trying to figure it out and I was like, oh, pick the one you are naturally most attracted to, because maybe that'll work. And we saw them as adults. Their sperm donor was hot, they didn't show any baby pictures, but this was like 10, their their sperm donor was hot, but they didn't show any baby pictures, but this was like 10, 15 years ago. So I don't know if things have changed since then.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, mom, we only saw photos of her as a kid, but then the video was her. So we were like this is good, so we were able to. You know, I do wish we could get in touch with her. I just wish she could meet Maverick and like he's so sweet and so special. But you know, I I do wish we could get in touch with her. I just wish she could meet maverick and like he's so sweet and so special. But you know, maybe one day what?

Speaker 1:

what does that? You know, on the adoption side, right, we have an open adoption, but say we had a close adoption. Our children can gain access to the records when they're 18. They can figure out who their biological parents are if they wanted to when they were 18, as long as, as the information's available, which it is, they don't have to do that, but they could. And in the world of 23andMe, you know, people often were like oh, you have an open adoption. I'm like, first off, my kids are going to want to know who these people are. They just are, and I'm not going. I want to cultivate that relationship. I want that to be a part of their life, because it is a part of their life, and I imagine it's very similar with the donor situation. And so I do wonder, though like is there? Is there a similar process for donor conceived children to gain access to those records when they're older?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there is. There's laws, definitely. Now there's a lot of there, isn't? It's a deep well you can go down into of donor conceived people is an entire organization of people who are trying to demand that there's more legal implications for parents to disclose this information, because there are a lot of adults now who found out on 23andMe or on Ancestrycom that they were donor conceived and that was not disclosed to them. So can you imagine like becoming an adult and then finding out that you're actually not related to your parents and they lied to you?

Speaker 2:

No, that was big in the 80s, though 80s and 90s it was like don't talk about that, they're adopted. Like we would know people were adopted but they wouldn't know.

Speaker 3:

It was very strange. There's no legal like ramifications, so a medical clinic is not required to to make sure that the parents do disclose that information, and I think that I think there should be. I just think, for mental health reasons and for other reasons like it, it just is the right thing to do.

Speaker 1:

but health reasons too in general I was gonna say health yeah, because that's a struggle, right. It's like, oh, can you give us your family's medical records? And it's like, well, I don't know everything, but I'm imagining that comes when you do the donor eggs, like you get at least a certain profile of their medical history.

Speaker 3:

I have her entire medical profile and we have it on file. We have it on file and if he ever wants to look at it, we'll show it to him and we tell him the story about these amazing women that helped make our family possible. And he just loves it, like he just loves knowing how many people see him, see that he matters, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And your friend Carrie was your surrogate or gestational carrier, right?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

So we ended up because that's the second half, right, so you got to get the embryo stage and then we froze the embryos and we were like, okay, well, we don't have a carrier and we didn't want to go through an agency because agencies cost so much. So we were trying to find a match on Facebook. I had heard some other people use Facebook so I was like, well, I give it a go, I'm good with social media and found these Facebook groups. And we matched with this woman and she bailed on us the 11th hour. We were about to get all the contracts written up and she decided right at the last minute to bail and we were crushed like just heartbroken, so we had to kind of start from scratch and we were at literally like within two weeks after that we were at a party in york city and for our friend's birthday, and this associate friend of ours was there and she was like I would so carry your baby, and I was like you've had too much wine, whatever.

Speaker 3:

And she was like no, I'm serious. And the next day she said I'm serious, I would totally do it. And that's who carried her our son, wow, yeah I.

Speaker 2:

What a good human. Yeah, Like how, how? Yeah, that's wild. The same thing happened to my hairdresser. Actually, his friend was the donor and gestational carrier. And I didn't know that these things happened until I met him.

Speaker 1:

That's so interesting. Yeah, I think the Facebook thing I so relate to, that I've done some. Yeah, facebook is has its place, I guess, still in society as a networking tool. But I think that that that devastation though, when things don't go right, it's really difficult right, because I think whenever you're dealing with fertility issues, it feels like so much is out of your control right, like you couldn't really control the situation. I'm sure that was a big part of this journey. I wonder how you and your partner kind of navigated the uncertain. I mean, there's always uncertainty whether or not you're physically carrying the child or not and what that looks like. But I think, in particular with adoption or surrogacy, there's a lot that is just out of your hands and requires an immense amount of work and trust and patience. So I just wonder how you two weathered that together, because it's a lot.

Speaker 3:

I mean, it wasn't easy. There were times where we were depressed, depressed and devastated and like stressed about how are we going to make money and what's the next step. And one of the things we have like sort of our mantra was the right child will come to us at the right time. And we were just kept saying, kind of saying that like the right child will come to us at the right time. That was kind of our way of just constantly letting go of the expectation and just knowing and trusting, because it really wasn't up to us and we lost that surrogate.

Speaker 3:

We were definitely then like the pandemic happened like two months after that, and we had, we had all this stuff lined up to do the embryo transfer, and then we had to put all that on pause and then we had to. Then I didn't have a job. I was doing Wicked on Broadway at the time and I was like now we don't have that money and so we didn't know how we were going to continue to pay for it. And then we it it. So there was just the pandemic hit and like everyone was like what's happening? Yeah, so it was. It took us four years from beginning to end. So to when he was to, when we started the process, to when he was born, and I don't, I think it was 100% worth it.

Speaker 1:

I do think the right child came to us.

Speaker 1:

You know, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's an emotional rollercoaster, no matter what the journey to parenthood, that's for sure. But that's that's a long journey, and the pandemic really made things so difficult. I remember there was women I knew who were like getting ready for a transfer and then the clinic just shut down because they weren't allowed to be open. They weren't essential, right, it wasn't essential. And so their, their fertility got pushed back. And it's so hard, that's so hard to have to deal with and it's out of your control, for sure. Again, but you now have a happy yeah. What did he say? He's two and a half. What I'm?

Speaker 3:

two and a half in March, two and a half in March, he's two and a half in March.

Speaker 1:

A two and a half in March year old I mean but to take a step back.

Speaker 3:

No, but to take a step back to what you were saying, though, like we did have a miscarriage, the first transfer.

Speaker 1:

Oh, did you.

Speaker 3:

And that's interesting too, because I think a lot of people think of a miscarriage. They think about the carrier, right. They think about the person who has to deal with the physical ramifications of it, but we had to deal with the emotional ramifications of it as well. We had this huge anticipation years in the making and this friend of ours willing to do this to her body, and then we had to watch her terminate that right and go through that. And then she wasn't. She lived in florida, we are in texas, now our clinic is in connecticut. There's a pandemic, right. I mean, there was just so many things we had no power over, and it's just this constant letting go, just a constant like okay, we're going to figure this out.

Speaker 2:

And if it's meant to be, it's meant to be Financial too. You have a whole financial component, because every time you do a transfer, it's a lot of money, right?

Speaker 3:

And then once you do that transfer, the first transfer, a lot of money right. And then once you do that transfer the first transfer, that basically kicks in her monthly payments right. So we had to like figure all that out and get all the contract work done and then like the transfer so even, and then the miscarriage right. We had to pay out of pocket for that. None of that's covered for insurance None of that's covered, right the miscarriage isn't covered. Oh, no, no, like by her insurance.

Speaker 3:

No, no, no, because it's illegal for her insurance to pay for any part of it if she were to use her own insurance, any of it, the state could arrest her because it's it we like, we have to cover it, we have to cover it, yeah, you're, because it it, because it's our baby, it's our child, our fetus, like it's not hers. So it was. It was stressful, like, and sometimes she would go to her OB and then the OB clinic would would try to pay her insurance and she's like, please don't. I do not want to get arrested while carrying my friend's child.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Wow and not to like bring this politically, but like this day and age too, where, like, there's a lot of risk to women in pregnancy. Now Is this like a risk to I don't know if you're in the know of this or still looking at surrogacy for potential additional children, but is that a risk to this option for parents? The fact that, like many women, are probably fearful of their reproductive health rights and what that would mean if they were a carrier?

Speaker 3:

I would think finding a surrogate or carrier right now in some of these red states is going to be hard, and a lot of these red states are the ones that have the best surrogacy laws, which is fascinating, right, like Texas is like the easiest state to carry a child, but like, if our surrogate were to need to have, she had to have a dnc because the the pregnancy would not pass naturally and a dnc is considered a form of abortion, right, right, so she would not have been able to do that in florida right now so she would have to fly or drive to a different state wherever, and then that cost another cost on you plus the stress to her body.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, it's so complicated I think I didn't realize Texas had the had good surrogacy laws. This is a fairly I mean, all fertility is fairly new right If we think about it like relatively new, but surrogacy, I think, in particular, is probably a newer area or maybe probably maybe like one that people are less knowledgeable about right. I feel less knowledgeable about it. How did you all learn the ins and outs of this? Did you work with a lawyer? Did you just Google everything? What was that process like?

Speaker 3:

It's and here's the thing about surrogacy is it's changing so rapidly, like there's so you know, even between the four years, like there's different ways of going about it and the technology is improved and the genetic testing is improved, and like so, really, our fertility doctor was the person who kept us sort of informed. And then, once we got to the point with it, with a, with our surrogate, we had to get a lawyer. Our surrogate, we had to get a lawyer, right, we had to get a lawyer for her and we had to pay for a lawyer for us. So we had to pay for two lawyers. So another fee, right.

Speaker 3:

So this is where the money comes in. So the lawyers for her, like kind of, we're paying for her lawyer and her state, because every state's laws are different, and then we have to pay for our own lawyer to protect both of us. And then you have to pay for insurance for her once there's a fetal heartbeat. And then, once the fetal heartbeat is there, it's basically like the insurance does cover some stuff, but it's only through the birth, and then, once the birth is done, we then have to pay out of pocket for everything else. So you didn't have to pay for the birth and then, once the birth is done, we then have to pay out of pocket for, like you know, everything else. So. So you didn't have to pay for the birth, it was part.

Speaker 2:

No, we paid for the insurance it was fifteen thousand dollars to have the insurance to cover the birth, but because I was gonna say birth is expensive but we had to pay for all of that up front and then if there was any cost outside of that, we would then have to pay.

Speaker 3:

so if there were any complications or like that, we would have had to pay out of pocket for that. So it's expensive and I think that learning about it is not.

Speaker 3:

It's just not that cut and dry. There's some great resources, especially for gay families. We love gays with kids, as in gayswithkidscom, they have a great academy that people can learn about adoption and surrogacy and how to build their family. And then Men Having Babies was another organization that we went to a couple of conferences and we had gone to a couple of conferences to learn a little bit about that.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. We will link those too for people who are looking to access that information. And so you mentioned so you had a miscarriage and then the next transfer was successful was Maverick.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I don't want to say that's good, but in the scheme of things, two transfers is not bad for fertility treatments. I know it's expensive, but that's great. And so how, I guess? How was that journey through pregnancy with your carrier, but also those like early days, the birth, all of that? What was that experience like?

Speaker 3:

Uh, surreal, you know, watching her belly grow and listening to his heartbeat, and we would have to FaceTime because it was pandemic. So all of the doctor's visits we were FaceTiming her getting her ultrasounds, and all of that. I remember we just became very close to her Like. We felt like very close and we still do. And then I remember the. It was a week, two weeks, before his due date. I think she's tiny, she's a little short person. I love her, but he's a big boy, like he was big, and her doctor was like he's getting kind of big and I'm a little worried for you, oh no. And at one point she lost her mucus plug and she like calls us, she's like I just want to let you know I lost my, my mucus plug today and I was like what is this thing? And she sent us a photo.

Speaker 1:

Great, you got the photo.

Speaker 3:

Please, please, tell us. I want to know everything. So she was like I think you guys should just come, just come, so you're here, just in case. And so we came and we stayed with her and her family for a week before. Something A lot of people only do is that surrogates, oftentimes to be vetted by a clinic, have to have gone through their own pregnancies successfully. So she has two children of her own and they that's how they know the uterus works well, right? So a lot of people don't know that.

Speaker 3:

So, anyway, so we got to go spend the week with them and then he induced her early because he didn't want her to go through any more pain than she was already gonna go through. So we were able to be in the room with her and we were able to see Maverick's face for the first time and it was otherworldly right. It's just like this moment of it's surreal to be in the room because you just feel like there's something bigger than us in the world. You know, and I love to tell Maverick about how we saw his face. When we saw his face for the first time, I said you popped out and I saw your face. And he goes I popped out.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's so cute.

Speaker 3:

And got to hold him and Steven got to feed him, she pumped and did colostrum for him, and so there was a lot of really special moments that she got to watch us hold him for the first time, and that was just a really cool moment. And then we were like in a hospital room together, the two of us with our baby, and she was in a recovery room in another room upstairs, a much nicer room, much more comfortable room than ours, and we, you know, we're freaking out. What do we do? I don't want to break them, you know, and the nurses were awesome, but of course it was mid pandemic, so everyone's just 22. So it was like the Omicron variant was like raging.

Speaker 3:

And then we had to fly him home from Orlando to Houston and he was only seven days old, dang Omicron, wow. And so we were super paranoid. We just wore him right and I thought I'd done everything perfect, like I had used all of our United points to get us first class seats and get us into the United club, so that we didn't have, we could just kind of separate ourselves. And then our flight was delayed Eight hours, wow. And so we were in the airport during. It was insane for eight hours with our seven-day-old baby.

Speaker 3:

Trying to not get him sick, we literally took furniture and like blockaded ourselves in the United Club. Wow, and then we got home. He was amazing, like he was great. And then when we got to houston they lost our car seat.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my gosh, what so you can't get home?

Speaker 3:

do not check your car seat like Like never, like always, gate check it, gate check. We checked it and we learned the first day.

Speaker 2:

How are you supposed to know that? That's the other thing, too right. You have no idea. You have a seven day old baby.

Speaker 3:

It was horrible, and so by the time we got to our car, we were just like all of us, and then Maverick just lost it.

Speaker 2:

And we were all just like oh, no, that's a good story, to tell them too, though, the drama of that.

Speaker 1:

How did you get home? Did you? Did one of you go buy a car seat and come back and get the? What did you do?

Speaker 3:

We ended up. They ended up giving us a really kind of cuss, like a really. They ended up giving us a really shitty car seat that they just happened to have at the airport, or newborns. So we, you know, I'm trying to get it into the car. I think that eventually Steven just wore him because we didn't know what else to do. It was 11 o'clock at night. We had been at that, you know, traveling, since like eight in the morning, so we were just like let's just go, let's just get home, and I just drove really carefully. I think this will be. I can't remember I was so tired. That was a big thing trying to get him home at seven days old during the pandemic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, everything that could go wrong went wrong.

Speaker 2:

It seems like that was pretty bad you can't instacart it probably at that time either, and I'm sure all of our parents like I don't they would just like throw us in the bottom of the car like literally make a bed have you seen those pictures where it's like my kid in their car seat?

Speaker 1:

then it's like me and it's like all the things on you, the straps not even on. How did we survive? Oh my gosh, that's, that's. That's so stressful, I think that's I mean. That is a thing, though, that they make you do before you leave the hospital, right, they like come, they make sure you've got your car seat. They checked my baby's straps. Like I can't even walk out of the hospital without that car seat.

Speaker 3:

Um, yeah, you know what I want to say, that that was really interesting. Those first weeks or so with him was there were, and it was mostly older women felt and I think it's biological maybe would just feel compelled to try to touch our child.

Speaker 3:

And I remember we got off the plane after that whole ordeal and we're trying to get our bags together and this woman comes over with her hands and tries to touch him in the middle of this pandemic and I remember I almost slapped her like not on purpose, but I just put my hand up to stop her Reflex and I was like, excuse me, she's like I just love babies and I was like I don't touch them, I don't touch you.

Speaker 2:

Is this a Southern thing Cause I feel like in California people stay away from you If you have a child.

Speaker 1:

they're like see ya, I want nothing to do with you, you know.

Speaker 2:

I think it's an age thing. I don't think it's biological.

Speaker 1:

I think it's age and not to you know whatever. Anyways, the boomers, but I do think. I do think that when I was a nanny, I was a nanny for this woman and she's like if anybody ever tries to touch the boys, you slap their hand. And I was like, ah, and I was like 21. I was like, ah, I don't know if I can do that. And she's like, oh no, if anybody ever tries to touch my, slap their hand right away. And I said you do not touch my child. And I was like but I think that is a very weird thing that a certain generation of people just do. And somebody just did it to us in Disney. Somebody came over and just rubbed my two-year-old's head and I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, you can't just touch people Like you don't know her, you don't know her.

Speaker 3:

Maverick has these gorgeous curls.

Speaker 3:

And so everyone compliments him on his curls, but he'll be at the playground and I will see a parent just brush his head and I'm like I don't know you. Like, why would you do that to any? If that was a grown woman or grown adult, we would not do that. It's just it's like this disconnect and that was been, I think you know.

Speaker 3:

To go back to your question, like learning how to parent differently and learning how to not repeat some of the generational trauma that I was subjected to is not something you naturally know how to do. It's taken a lot of learning and undoing and reading, and, and just conscious effort, and and. So we've really been very intentional about that. Like just trying not to just rest on our impulses and really try to learn about brain science and child development and and and help him understand how to set boundaries and speak up for himself and be authentic, and and so when I see people doing that, I'm like this is not okay. Like you know, we have to get consent and that's something that most of us were not raised on, so you can't blame them, but it's like enough.

Speaker 1:

But when you know, but when you know better, you do better, right? So like now you know, please don't touch my child, stop doing that. Yeah, it's so funny Cause our um I don't know why we were just talking before we started recording about how these two and a half year olds start chatting and they like have a personality, my two and a half year old. If the dog gets too close, she'll go. I need space, I need space and I'm like. I'm like he's a dog, he has no idea what you're saying, but I was like she knows at two and a half that she wants space. Like don't get too close to her. She and we've taught her to like just tell people that. Like, if you want them to walk away from you, if you don't want somebody to touch you, you tell them that you don't want that. And I don't think anybody was saying that to us growing up. It was kind of like you don't have control over the situation.

Speaker 2:

You're a child like the wet kisses from the aunties. Oh, sorry, didn't mean to interrupt you, it was just like visceral.

Speaker 3:

No, but remember how I remember being forced, you know, to say give your baby a hug give them a hug, give them a. You know, we say to Maverick, if you want to, you can say goodbye and give them a hug or a high five, whatever you want. And the look we get from the boomers right Is like where, why? You know they're, they're anticipating that, they're expecting it and we just give him permission to not if he chooses not to. And it's his body and you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

My my daughter's teacher did something really cool last year, which is that every day they got to come in and they got to pick their greetings, so like what they wanted, and so it could be a high five. It could be like a boogie dance they could dance with the teacher or they could hug her. They got to pick right, so like she had this board of like four things you could pick from, and every day when you walked in you could be like today's a high five. Today, today is a no touching day, but we're going to dance together, and she just loved seeing that, even at school for them, which is like, hey, you get to pick your, your, your child, but you also have autonomy to decide how you want to approach this situation, and so like, here's some fun ways to do that.

Speaker 1:

I just think it's, man, we learned so much as parents going through this, and so what is I mean, two and a half years in must feel like a lifetime. It feels like a lifetime in the blink of an eye, I'm sure. All at the same time. Yeah, what have you been learning along the way? What's been maybe most surprising to you about this journey of parenthood?

Speaker 3:

I think really the we've probably all heard it. I don't know how cliche it is but it's, you know, the reparenting yourself.

Speaker 3:

Reparenting has been the hardest thing for me and surprising, most surprising thing, cause I think that, especially at the beginning, I was finding myself during nap time processing my own childhood, like I would have flashbacks and memories of things and I'm like, why is this happening? I just want to take a nap, right, and then really trying to deal with that. Like what does that mean? Like what, how do you know? And what I've learned is like, most of the time, I'm giving my child the things I didn't get, and so I'm simultaneously grieving for myself while also giving so much unconditional love. It's two halves of the same coin and it's. It's complex and cool and healing and challenging and triggering. It's like all the things. But I've never felt more in tune with myself than I have in the last two and a half years and learning how to stand up for myself, because I'm teaching him how to stand up for himself right, setting boundaries for him and going, oh, this is what boundaries feel like. I never had that Right.

Speaker 1:

None of us did. I don't think, unfortunately. Yeah, that that triggering part I really relate to. I don't know about you, sam, but, like I, there's certain things where I like I feel myself losing it and I'm like I know, I know why, I know why I'm upset right now, but I'm like having a really hard time bringing this in. And I was doing deep breathing with the other day and my toddler was like are you feeling a lot of emotions? I was like I am. I was like I need some space now. Give me my space. But it's like we learn so much about ourselves during those moments. Right, and I think that's what you know.

Speaker 1:

people will make fun of millennial parents or whoever but, about how we take everything so seriously and we're so emotional about it all. We overthink everything. But I also think this generation of parents is being so incredibly thoughtful about how we approach parenting and, for worse or better, you know, like we're we are overanalyzing the stuff we're doing. But I think it's because, at the core of it, where we really care about what, what happens to our kids and I would say, our parents didn't, but we've learned right and so, like, when we do something, we don't like we do overanalyze that because we're like, okay, well, I want to do better by them so, like, what do I need to do? How do I need to deal with these triggers myself? And I'd be interested, like, how have you tackled that? Like, do you do therapy? Do you just kind of like work through it? What's that like?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we do therapy and we're in a. We have a parenting group that Steve and I both go to together on Wednesday nights Amazing, we talk to other parents and we have a facilitator and and so we've had that sort of that. To me is like kind of our village, if you will. And we, we learned about the Rye method, which is the resources for infant educators. It's a process of raising an infant and so we really tried to stick to that and apply that, which is very not Western. It's very you're like when you're.

Speaker 3:

It's very counterculture to what probably social media would, would do. So we get we get a lot of flack from people around that, because it really is the belief that a child, a baby, is born as a, as a fully, fully whole human being, and the more we can respect that, even though they're not able to ask what they want, but respecting them as whole human being, and the more we can respect that, even though they're not able to ask what they want, but respecting them as a human being from the beginning teaches them how to respect themselves. It's just a very counterculture and so that's been challenging, you know, because we don't do electronics, we don't do screens Like we've done a lot of things, like people feel guilty or have their own stuff around and like you know, it's sort of. But you know, the thing is that we've both been sober for a very long time. That's a big part of our story. It's the same thing.

Speaker 3:

Oh so, it's the same thing when you stop drinking, right, it's like when you say you're doing something with your kid, it almost holds a mirror up to other people's stuff and their own guilt or their own behavior, and and so when we say, oh, we don't do screens, we almost always get a reaction Well, I have to. I mean, I'm like I'm not saying it's bad, like this is what we're doing. I don't drink. Oh, oh, did you have a problem? Well, I only have one. I only have one beer.

Speaker 2:

I can control myself and you're like, I didn't say anything about you Like what. I have an issue.

Speaker 3:

It's interesting how it triggers. It triggers people. But it has been so cool to have that accountability and just like to try to like, work on things together and approach things that teach that separate our child from us. He's not our possession, he's not our like, he's not a piece of us. He is a fully formed human being that we have the gift of getting to create a safe environment and a secure world for him to grow into.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and guide him, yeah, and I know there's a lot of talk about nature and nurture and all of that, but like I similarly to you, Brett like I have that kind of same thought where it's like my son came out, who he was, like he was not sleeping for 12 hours out of time during the day from the moment he was born. Like I have a picture when he's like 10 days old and he had been up, it was 8 PM and he had been up since 8 AM and that is just how he's always been from the day he was born. And so like it's just like making it safe for him to be who he is, Like his friends now know that. Oh, he doesn't like hugs.

Speaker 2:

We don't give him hugs, Like they all know, when you go to say goodbye, they're like no, he doesn't like hugs, he needs space. And then they all just wave and leave.

Speaker 1:

And when you respect your kids as people outside of yourself. So my son is also not a hugger. He used to be and then he turned three and he's he does not want to be touched, like even if I and so, and you know, we have some adoption trauma and like attachment and medical. So it makes sense that he has this sensory thing where he doesn't like to be touched. But there are days where he wakes up and he walks into my room and just hugs me and just like gives me a big hug. And those are the moments my husband and I are like hold on, don't let go. We do the same.

Speaker 1:

It's the Disney character thing Brett. Like the character can't let go, like I'm not going to let go until he lets go, it's that. But I've never forced him to hug me and people will be like well, he's your son and it's like it doesn't matter, like he doesn't want to hug, I'm not going to force him to hug me. That's weird. Right Like that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then he'll come over when he's ready and it hurts, and then you move on. Yeah, get yourself a sweet treat instead.

Speaker 1:

That's what I do, at least. They're going to be strong, they're going to feel a lot of conviction in themselves. That's at least what I hope. Obviously there's societal pressure and all that, but you know we can do what we can do.

Speaker 3:

For us. I think it's super important because you know, for as a gay, as growing up gay in this country, you know I grew up in Southeast Texas, a very conservative part of this country. You know we were always othered right, so, like doing other techniques of raising our child is not. It doesn't make it any different, but I will say my list, like what's the difference? I don't need to fit in because I'm used to not fitting in. But what's interesting is, as a gay couple, is whenever we do go out in public with our child, it's we're always outed, it's always we're always naturally coming out of the closet when we're seen with our child. And it's definitely been a challenge living where we live.

Speaker 3:

I remember the first time we actually went out in public with him. I think we were both super paranoid, but I remember the reactions that a couple of women gave us at world market and I was. It was like bizarre. And you know I don't think that people realize there's this like other part of this that like yeah, it's cute to see two men with a baby, but but there's not a lot of people who think that that's right and so when you're in a public situation, we don't know who those people are and we don't know how safe. We are Right, and that's something we have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, go ahead I was going to say, and your child hears the things these people say. I think that's something people often. Again, this goes back to the child being a fully formed human being, which is we are also outed every time we go out because our children are black and we are white and they are adopted. And people will be like are they siblings, are they yours, are they adopted? And I'm like you can't. You cannot just come up to strangers in a store and ask that and I'm sure you get similar questions or people give you unsolicited feedback and statements and I don't think any of these people are thinking about the child and what they're hearing and what they're internalizing.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's, that's. And your son, I mean, he's young, but he'll he'll start to hear and understand and know.

Speaker 3:

Right, and which is all the more reason to start now really giving him his own independence and his own self-awareness, because I want him to be able to talk to us about this stuff and not feel like he can't talk about it because we get triggered something in us that's our stuff, not his. And so we're constantly you know, I'm I'm constantly trying to figure out how to manage the world outside um of of the family. When of the family, when we're together, when people do ask on the playground, it's inevitable There'll be a parent who will ask an inappropriate question. You know who's the real dad, right, and it's like I understand what you're trying to ask. So now my response is that's too personal, I don't know you you don't know me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you don't know me.

Speaker 3:

That's a question you ask your best friend or I say we're both the real dad, we're both mavericks dad do you ever think about not living in an area like that?

Speaker 2:

is that something that you consider?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I mean, I think we really like to, especially post-election. I don't know how protected we feel at this point. You know, I've always been sort of like, oh, we'll just be another blue dot in this red state. But now I feel like, okay, they're going to try to swallow these blue dots alive. So, yeah, I mean I would love to.

Speaker 3:

But this is the thing a lot of people say is like, oh, if this goes to states's rights, you know at least, like it's not that easy. Right, like Texas costs one third of what it costs for us to live in New York City in a two box apartment. Right here we have a four bedroom house for a third of the cost, with a yard. We're not going to get that in a lot of these places where we would be fully accepted and fully embraced. And I think that people again, like we're freelance artists, like we make money doing content and farmers, and like you know, it's not like we have disposable income or trust funds. So I think people kind of don't see that like, oh, just move to California, okay, but do you understand property taxes?

Speaker 2:

yes, my husband has it all backwards. He thinks we'll be safer in a red state again not to make this political, but he he had. He he's like we should move to a red state because we'll be safer there, because they're sending a national guard to the blue cities in the blue states and I'm like I think I think you're on the wrong Reddit thread, man. I don't think we moved to Wyoming right now. Although I wanted to, although I'm like I wouldn't mind. It's cheaper, like and it's beautiful. Nothing against Wyoming, I like.

Speaker 3:

Texas, like my, you know, as an American citizen, like my rights should be, I could live wherever I want and feel protected and feel safe.

Speaker 3:

But you know, I don't know that I feel that at this moment, you know that could just be fresh off the election. But I also think about my son. I think about, I want him to have a good education and a well-rounded education, and not one that's like telling people that the Bible is real history. I mean, I think the Bible is going, but like it doesn't replace science. So it's like it's scary in that sense, like I don't know. I would love to move to another state. I think there'd be a lot, because we really do miss that creative community that we had in New York. But I don't want. I don't miss the winters.

Speaker 1:

I was going to say come to Massachusetts, but it's quite cold.

Speaker 3:

I don't miss the winters, I don't miss, I don't miss the shoebox. We like the warm weather, so we'll see, we'll see. But I think it's really important that people understand how it does affect families like ours. And if you do like seeing diverse families in your neighborhood, think about that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and think about how you show up for those families and what that looks like too. You know, brett, we've taken a lot of your time, but we do like to always ask two questions at the end, so I will ask the first one, which is if you had one piece of advice you could give to anyone who is going to be a new parent, what would that piece of advice be?

Speaker 3:

Know what your home boundaries are for extended family before you have a child. Yes, no, like. You're not coming into my home until like decide that together lay it out and send an email to every person in your extended family telling them what the rules are for the first six months of the baby's life. If you can set those boundaries before, you'll spare yourself a huge. You might disappoint some people who cares Like. It'll spare you a lot of drama and stress later down the line.

Speaker 1:

I think you'll just run, load it. Yeah, that's a very good piece, very good piece of advice that I think a lot of us wish we had taken. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you kind of alluded to this one earlier, or you kind of said it but I'm wondering if there's anything that's brought you unexpected joy throughout this process. I'm sure there's so much, especially with the journey that you've been on.

Speaker 3:

But unexpected joy in this process. I mean honestly, I think I honestly I never understood the female reproductive system before. I have such a different respect and understanding of what women go through and the female identity because of watching our surrogate, and you know, carry our child and watching every bit of that process and watching her give birth and watching her recover and helping us build this family, and the gift and the generosity of that and the gift and the generosity of what the female body can do. I never understood that before and I will say I you know, when it comes to women's rights and you hear, even on a political spectrum, but like whatever, I have just a different appreciation and understanding for it than I ever did and I I don't think I ever would have expected that. So I just see female joy, you know, I just see the joy in in what women, the existence and and what women are capable of, and what women, the existence and and what women are capable of.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. Thank you, we so appreciate your time. If people don't follow you already, where can they follow you? Where can they find you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, come follow Broadway Husbands. You can find me there too. I have my own personal account, brett Shuford and Steven has his as well, but probably Husbands is where we share a lot of our family stuff and fun dances and yeah.

Speaker 1:

Disney.

Speaker 3:

Disney.

Speaker 2:

And we'll link everything in the show notes Great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, thank you so much for your time, we so appreciate it.

Speaker 3:

My pleasure.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for tuning in to Do you Want the Truth? We hope today's episode gave you a fresh perspective on the real and unfiltered side of parenthood. If you a fresh perspective on the real and unfiltered side of parenthood, if you enjoyed our conversation, please rate our show and leave a comment. It helps us reach more parents who need to hear these stories. And remember, we'd love to hear from you If you have your own parenting story to share or a suggestion for a future guest. Reach out to us directly and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode Until next time. Keep embracing the truth and know you're never alone on this journey.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Paige Connell

Host
Contributor

Sam Strom

Host
Head Shot

Zara Hanawalt

Co-host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.

Diabolical Lies Artwork

Diabolical Lies

Katie Gatti Tassin & Caro Claire Burke