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Do you want the truth?
Welcome to Do You Want The Truth? where we dive deep into the real raw stories from parents in the trenches of parenthood.
Season 2 is brought to you by Sam Strom and Freelance Journalist Zara Hanawalt, along with guest co-hosts such as Jaime Fisher.
Season 1 is brought to you by Paige Connell & Sam Strom. They bring you candid conversations with parents who share their experiences of parenthood and what they wish they knew before having kids. You'll hear the real stories. The stories that are typically reserved for best friends. The stories with TMI. We believe in the power of truth telling because when someone asks, do you want the truth? We always say yes. Join us as we explore the highs and lows and everything in between so you can feel less alone on your journey.
Connect with Sam: https://www.linkedin.com/samanthastrom https://www.tiktok.com/@samanthastorms
Do you want the truth?
The Truth About: C-Sections featuring @cxpodcast
Do you want the truth about c-sections? Because this week, you’re getting it.
Jen and Beth — the brilliant, brutally honest minds behind The C-Section Experience podcast — join us for a conversation that’s part group therapy, part birth trauma confessional, and part roast of the word “birth plan.” Between them, they’ve had more abdominal surgeries than a Grey’s Anatomy cast member and are here to share about some really personal things like: stillbirth, VBACs, unmedicated guilt spirals, body betrayal, hospital shakes, and the deep weirdness of bonding with a newborn when you’ve got a toddler at home who still calls the shots.
They’re smart. They’re funny. And they’re not here for the sugarcoating.
Whether you had a magical unmedicated birth or felt like your uterus got mugged in an OR, this episode is for you.
Content note: This episode includes a deeply personal story of stillbirth.
At 28 weeks pregnant, Beth knew something was wrong — but no one listened. What followed changed everything about how she approached birth, medicine, and motherhood. She shares her story with vulnerability and strength, offering insight into how trauma shapes our decisions and how healing isn’t linear.
Together we unpack:
What it’s like to schedule a C-section after stillbirth
The guilt spiral of “failed” birth plans and emergency deliveries
Why three is the hardest age (scientific consensus among moms)
Medical gaslighting and why your gut always knows
Birth prep advice that actually helps
Scar tissue, diastasis recti, and whether a strong core helps or hurts
The postpartum recovery no one preps you for (including scar itch and the shakes)
How to stop apologizing for your birth story
They also get real about what it’s like to fall in love with your kid — sometimes not right away — and why being a “good mom” has nothing to do with how your baby entered the world.
Resources Mentioned:
The C-Section Experience Podcast
Every Mother: Diastasis Recti Program
Postpartum Support International
VBAC info via ACOG
Website: https://www.doyouwantthetruthpod.com
Connect with Sam:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/samanthastrom
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@samanthastorms
Connect with Zara:
Zara Hanawalt https://www.linkedin.com/in/zara-hanawalt/
TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@zarahanawalt
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/zarahanawalt/
Sam and I are both C-section moms, which we talk about a lot on this podcast, but what we've noticed is that there's a real lack of resources dedicated to the experience, both physically and emotionally, of giving birth via C-section, and that's why we were so excited when we found the C-section experience Hosted by two healthcare professionals, Jen Wagner and Bethany Scott. The C-section experience is a podcast dedicated to helping women navigate C-section births with confidence and clarity. They share education, birth stories and incredible support. Today we spoke with Jen and Bethany about everything from giving birth via C-section to motherhood in general, to navigating the grief of a stillbirth. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we enjoyed having it.
Speaker 2:You two are from the C-Section Experience podcast, not to be confused with the Joe Rogan experience.
Speaker 3:I'm not a little different.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us a little bit about how you met and how?
Speaker 4:Well, we met. So I moved to Connecticut when I was pregnant with my second child. I was in New York City during the pandemic and moved like right before I had him and I sent my older my daughter was two at the time and I just I didn't know what to do. There was a random opening at a preschool right by where we moved. I didn't know anyone in town and we, so our daughters, were in preschool together and we met each other kind of through that's sort of where all my friends how I got to know anyone in town was through this preschool and we just hit it off.
Speaker 2:We have a lot in common and we both love talking about birth stuff.
Speaker 4:Obviously One of my favorite topics as well. Yeah, gonna, we're gonna get along. Yeah, and yeah, that's how we met and our like our kids are best friends. So our two her two youngest and my kids are like the same age and they're really good friends and we have the same group of friends and our husbands are friends and we just do a lot together, to say the least. Now it's just to an extreme, now that we actually have a little podcast together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it was funny because I feel like until I met Jen, I would like never have like side conversations about birth, and then we would like have hour long conversations about birth. You'll be like what are you guys still talking about? Like, oh, we had to talk about this subject really fast. Like really.
Speaker 2:How could you have that much to talk about? But we did. That's awesome. Sounds like you have a filter with other people, because I'll just start talking about birth with anyone who will listen. I'm like, dude, this is crazy. Motherhood, this is crazy stuff.
Speaker 3:I think, like people are so appreciative actually, when you bring it up now and I think that's what like made us want to start the podcast as well as like, and we just started talking to our friends and like how many people were like, yeah, I mean, I had an okay birth and then, as we like picked away all of a sudden they started telling all these pieces of it, we're like, wait a second, like you kind of had a traumatic birth, like you should be recognizing that and like giving that some attention. And I think, for both Jen and I, like our different experiences, like really, just, you know, you can learn a ton of things in a textbook and then you live it and you're like, oh, wow, this is totally different and we need to support totally differently. And I think that's where just the podcast idea really just started coming out. And Jen is obsessed with podcasts as well, so I had never listened to one. When she asked me if we should start one, I know, I know I was like, oh, okay, really missing out.
Speaker 4:So I learn everything now.
Speaker 3:Well, now, I listen all the time, but Zara, were you a big podcast person.
Speaker 1:I was. I listened to a lot of podcasts and I so. I'm a journalist by training and profession and I actually have been working in the parenting and fertility and reproductive health space for a long time now, but this is my first time really doing a podcast. I just joined a few months ago, so kind of using skills that I've worked on throughout my career, but kind of doing it in a different way yeah, it's like a more casual but more real kind of yeah, I don of medium but,
Speaker 2:I love it. I have stopped listening to, as I used to be obsessed with podcasts too, but now that I have one I don't know I like feel like I don't listen to as many. Maybe it's just like good ones.
Speaker 4:Like I go through like a time when I can't find anything that I like and then, once you find a good one, then you sort of binge, I feel. I think you do that.
Speaker 3:I do that.
Speaker 4:Well, also, it just depends on. I mean, if I'm commuting to work, then I have to drive like 45 minutes. So what else am I going to do, I guess?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you both work in the parenting space or motherhood space as well, right Outside of the podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, kind of.
Speaker 4:Well, you telling me, yeah, so I'm an anesthesiologist, but I'm working part-time now, which was a big shift I made about almost a year ago, in July. And, bethany, well, you've been mostly a state, yeah, yeah no, that's where I'm like coming out.
Speaker 3:so now I'm taking on clients again for my birth classes, which has been awesome, but it's kind of nice to take like a little hiatus because I don't think I could have balanced everything. I feel like that would have just burnt me out so much and I'm glad that, like I feel like it's okay to say like take a break, take a break, do a little reset and see like where you are, instead of trying to keep so many balls in the air. Which is why Jen going to a part time position opened up the space for us to be able to do the podcast as well, which is awesome.
Speaker 2:And anesthesiologists are doctors, correct?
Speaker 4:Mm, hmm, yeah. So, I did like an anesthesia residency and then I did an extra year of fellowship for OB anesthesia specifically. So I primarily just work on labor and delivery.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, it can be. I it sounds like there's a lot of yeah, a lot of degrees in this room and it can be hard Cause, like I am doing the reset thing right now, I'm coming up on my first year as like kind of like stay at home. I mean, I started a business on the side but you know like not working in corporate and Zara has been staying home for how many years now? Six.
Speaker 1:I mean I haven't fully been home, but I've been freelancing for six years, yeah.
Speaker 4:You have control and flexibility, which is what I did not have for many years.
Speaker 4:And it's kind of. It's actually hard for me when people some people are like, oh, so you don't work anymore, you're retired. I'm like, no, I still work, just not as much, and I have more flexibility in what days I go to work, which was just not a thing for me and I didn't even know could be a thing. So it's been great, like you can be around, you can do things for your kids, you can go to that thing that they schedule in the middle of the day on a Wednesday. I used to be so mad what are you talking? I'm always the mom I can't be there, and now I can just sort of work things out where I'm doing my other things on days when you know they don't need me as much or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. I think everyone thinks that when your kid starts kindergarten, it's like oh, the childcare issues are solved, like you should go back to work full time, it's, everything will figure itself out. No, it's actually probably more complicated, it's just different.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's what I'm learning coming out of, like the toddler years and into the school years, there's just new problems and they're not things that are as easily outsourceable, I think exactly you can teach someone how to you know, use the nap schedule and this is what they eat, but these emotional development things and their personal problems and issues, it's like things that only a parent can deal with really Deciding. Are we continuing this activity? Do you still like it? It's they're developing who they really are as people and in that way, I think they need us more.
Speaker 3:Totally. I feel like now I have more mom guilt. Sometimes I thought that like that would like lessen, but like now you're right, like it's like the emotional needs, like they only want you to do something.
Speaker 4:Like well, okay, well, and they can get you now because they can tell you like I remember you did not come to this thing three months ago, so you better come this time, you know.
Speaker 2:I think there's also the point of like the patience for me it's been a lot of patience and I'm such a better mom now that I'm not in that corporate environment getting drained every day where it's like oh, I can actually regulate. I'm still not great at regulating myself, but I can regulate myself more. So I can be like oh, like, let's figure this out together instead. Where it's like, go to your room, you're being a jerk, yeah. Or now it's like let's work through this together.
Speaker 4:That's kind of the self-care aspect of it all too, because it wasn't just being able, if I'm honest, to do the things with them, but also take some time for myself to actually do the things that I need to, like get my exercise in, or whatever it is, so that, yeah, I can just be a happier person for my children too and not just be a ball of stress. That's choosing between myself or them. Basically, that was always the two choices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it kind of pits you against your partner too, because it's like resources are limited. So I'm using all my resources all my time to do all this stuff. Why aren't you? Why are you going to the gym? Why are you doing all these?
Speaker 3:things, and then totally.
Speaker 1:Yes, I feel that I feel like a 40 hour job which is never actually a 40 hour job leaves so little space for anything else in your life, whether that's like exercise or friendship or marriage or anything even just to like sit and figure out what you actually want. There's hardly any time or space for that. So I feel like stepping away from a full-time job was kind of the best thing that I ever did for myself, and I also realized that there's a lot of privilege in that. But I am really glad that I made that choice when my kids were born.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you can still kind of take on projects when you want to right and or yeah yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think. The thing is, though, there's no perfect situation. So I have been freelancing, but I didn't have any child care for four years with my kids, so I was home with them full time and also trying to have this career, and I've been thinking about it a lot. I feel like I cheated myself and my kids a little bit by not accepting more help, because I am in a place where I can be so much more patient with them now because they go to school and I can kind of compartmentalize and I'm not constantly overwhelmed. But there was a period where they were like three and I was working 25 hours a week, but a full-time stay-at-home mom on top of that, and I was like constantly losing it. So, yeah, three is the hardest, in my opinion. I've only been through six years of it, but I think three was the hardest, especially with twins.
Speaker 3:Oh, I can only yeah, three. I would say three was really challenging for me too. Four's been very challenging too, I don't know. I'm like when are you going to get good when?
Speaker 4:are you going to be good? We're boys and we keep blaming. I'm like, is it the boy? Because I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 4:Daughter being as bad.
Speaker 3:I don't either.
Speaker 2:I think we just Whoa Zara. You know you're going through with a boy and a girl at the same time, which one's harder?
Speaker 1:There's such different challenges. I would say that the boys are harder for me and the girls are harder for my husband. I think that there's a lot of like the emotions and the opinions and stuff with the girls, but my son is like extremely physical and that's hard for me because I'm constantly like there's constantly stuff like being thrown at me because everything is a ball according to my son.
Speaker 2:They are violent.
Speaker 4:But yeah, it's, it's. I don't know, I don't know what the hardest age is. I think we're still working through it. I kind of I remember Bethany when I first met her, when her son turned five, and so our daughters were like three just turned three and you were saying how great five is, which I still do. Think there's something magical about that five. I do too, yeah, but then you keep saying it, because you say it now about Souther. You're like well, just wait till eight. Eight is amazing.
Speaker 3:I don't know. Today was his last day of school and he got himself dressed and was putting his shoes on and tying his shoes. And my husband is like not an emotional person at all and he walked into the room and he was like getting all choked up. I'm like, are you OK? He's like Souther just got dressed by himself and put his shoes on and was tying them.
Speaker 4:I'm like I know, the shoes is extra special.
Speaker 3:It was extra special, but normally it's like Souther, can you just like put your boxers on like 15 times? So I do feel like in this past school year we've gone from being naked every morning to actually getting dressed and putting shoes on and tying them himself. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to be said for that. You're doing great and I do think it gets easier every year. Like three was hard Newborn was way harder for me but like three, like once they became like humans that was the hardest, but it seems like every year is getting better. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Three, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like taking care of a newborn isn't as hard as taking care of a three-year-old, but your own personal internal experience postpartum is the hardest, totally.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you don't recognize it at the time. Yeah, you look at someone else taking care of a newborn and you're like that's so nice.
Speaker 3:Like it's just sleeping sitting there.
Speaker 2:They don't talk back to you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, but for sure like your own state it's so stressful. So I did not love the newborn stage.
Speaker 3:Well, every day you're learning to keep them alive. Let me just not screw something up today.
Speaker 2:It's stressful, it is yeah, yeah, and so between all of us, we have one, two. How many C-sections do we have here? Because me and Zara each had one?
Speaker 3:You have three.
Speaker 4:I had one C-section and I had to be back.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we have a lot of C-sections between us all, and were any of that as ours was planned? Were yours planned? Were yours emergent? What did that look like?
Speaker 3:So mine were planned but I was with an MFM because my first birth was a stillbirth, so that kind of led my delivery route to be very controlled. It was a lot personally, but also medically, because I was on blood thinners. Actually, jen and I got into this one time. She was like why didn't you like ever think about it? I was like I don't know, I didn't trust my body and I just like for me it seemed like the safest route to bringing them into this world.
Speaker 4:I just wanted you to just say that it was that you kind of that was what was safest for you, like that was your chosen path Because I was trying to get at what. You know exactly what happened with the C-sections, but that was always felt right for you and I think that's totally, totally.
Speaker 3:Which is why, when people say, like I don't understand why people would schedule a C-section, I'm like I don't understand why you would say that Like you have no idea what it took for her to maybe get there, so for you to have an opinion on it just is so unfair.
Speaker 2:How can I ask questions about your stillbirth? How was it? Were you full term? Was it? I was 28?
Speaker 3:weeks. Okay, so you're 28 weeks, yeah, yeah, and so it was. It was so bizarre because, like, from the moment I found out I was pregnant, there was just something that was always nagging at me and, like at the detailed anatomy scan, I just kept asking questions. I'm like something just looks wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And so, even leading up to it was my, I was going in for my glucose challenge and I'd called the office so many times Cause I was like I just, I just feel dead inside, I can't explain what's going on. And they're like, totally dismiss me. And they're like you're coming in in two days, don't worry about it, eat ice cream, do this, do that. And I was like I get you're saying all of that, but like and all due respect, like I'm an RN in the OB space, like I know all these things, I have done everything. And I'm telling you, something feels really wrong.
Speaker 3:And this is when I was working in the city. So I was on the subway and I remember the day before I went in, I literally almost just passed out on the subway. I was like something medically feels very wrong, like couldn't, I couldn't verbalize it, and I think that was the most frustrating part of it is like reaching out to my doctor. I was hoping to get some clarity of, like, maybe, why this is happening or why you're feeling this way or why you're having these intense head rushes and feeling like you're going to faint. And then the glucose challenge. I mean, I walked in and I was like she's like you're just, you're just creating something that isn't necessary. Everything was fine in the detailed anatomy scan and then it was like this moment when obviously she stopped because she couldn't find cardiac activity, and the first thing she said and I've said this to Jen, it's like so funny, like the things that people say to you in a moment that you don't realize you're about to enter into this like super traumatic experience, experience. But she like looked at me and she's like you knew, didn't you? And it's just like this statement that has like weighed so heavily on me because I wanted to be like yeah, I fucking knew. I called you so many times, I knew something was wrong and nobody listened to me and that, for me, was I mean.
Speaker 3:Obviously then everything that happened after that was basically an out-of-body experience, but it taught me. I'm 11 years out and I now will have the group of doctors I used to work with. Sometimes they'll ask if they can send someone my way to talk about it, and every single person that I've had a conversation with there's always like one statement or like one sentence that somebody said that it's like they just just burned into their soul and so it was a very hard road. I feel like I'm now, at 11 years out, able to talk about it without breaking down and like seeing that you know I've made a choice to use my loss to help others and, to you know, to just better the space that I love so much, because that was hard to be in the birth space and have this experience and to go back in and, like all these people, knew something that like really personal, had happened in my life and just like act like everything was normal and like everybody kind of treated me differently but didn't want to treat me differently. It was.
Speaker 2:it was a really bizarre couple of years and I ended up leaving that job because it just I was never going to heal staying in that environment yeah, I've heard that a lot when people have a loss that they do have scheduled c-sections and they just like Paige was on here before and she was talking about how she she had a loss before Wasn't a stillbirth or anything, but she couldn't wait to get the baby out because she wasn't going to believe that everything was going to be fine until it was out.
Speaker 3:And even then and it sounds like you had that experience too yeah, and to even like when people would be like, are you so excited that you're pregnant? And I would always be like, oh yeah, like inside I was just like dying. I just like felt like I was like just trying to get through every second of the day and like what I felt, like I had to. And I think a lot of people do this, even if it's a miscarriage or anything that question People are always like expecting you to be like yeah, I'm so excited to be pregnant. And I think then the truth of it is a lot of women are they're happy that they are pregnant, but they are so nervous being pregnant that it's hard to feel excitement.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't feel super excited. Did anyone else? Zara, were you super excited?
Speaker 1:To be pregnant, or yeah, I mean, you know I did not have the easiest time getting pregnant. I have IUI twins, so yeah, of course, after that I was extremely excited to be pregnant, but I had a really complicated pregnancy and I didn't. I had had a miscarriage before. I never experienced anything like a stillbirth and I'm so sorry that you have, but I had a lot of complications in my pregnancy and so I definitely had that feeling of I won't be able to take a deep breath until this is done and they're out and they are in my arms because, you know, I had cholestasis. So stillbirth was a risk and a possibility that I was aware of and I yeah, I couldn't really relax at the end of my pregnancy until I knew that they would make it.
Speaker 2:Same, yeah, and the medical gaslighting is crazy. I had my when I went in for my. My C-section was an emergency C-section and I told the doctor I was like I'm going to bleed out. And they're like no, you're not. I've been doing this for 35 years, you're fine. I bled out and like they didn't have enough blood and all of that stuff, and it's like they just never believe women. It's like no, you don't know what you're talking about. And it's like I can imagine that your births after it were like you were so glad. You're like let's get this done. How is it having a plan C section? I know there's a few people on here with plan C sections, but I mean, I appreciated it.
Speaker 3:I felt like I could mentally wrap my head around what was going to happen and especially because I had the trauma it was, it was like a solidified date instead of being like, let me just make sure my body's going to do the right thing, like I already felt like my body didn't do the right thing, but at the same time I I don't know especially to when my second and my third like I was terrified to leave my first at home. I was like what if something happens to me? So I felt like it just it calmed. It gave me a sense of control and calmness that I think is a beautiful thing that we're able to provide to women.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I said I've worked in the fertility and parenting space before I had kids and I heard a lot in that time about people who had a lot of guilt or even trauma after having C-sections that were not planned. I don't know, sam, did you have any of that?
Speaker 2:Guilt about C. Yeah, I was like. The only book I read during pregnancy was Ina Mays and I was like why? What is wrong with me? I'm trying to loosen my sphincter, I can't loosen it. Like, what? Like why can't I do this?
Speaker 2:And no, you're not like, just send me to a farm. I'm like what is wrong? Yeah, I had a lot of guilt. And then it was especially like I knew it. I knew I wasn't going to be like. And then you start going cause I was induced, and so it was like should I not have induced? And now that I'm further out I look at pictures and I'm like, oh my God, my ankles were like this big. I had undiagnosed preeclampsia, probably throughout the pregnancy, and so I was like, had I not induced? There are many things that could have happened after. But I think you have to get a few years out to look back and be like, no, there's nothing I could have done. But then I start getting down on like the medical system because I'm like why do we have so many bright lights and machines and all of these things, and couldn't we make it a little bit more soothing so that I could relax my damn sphincter?
Speaker 4:Yeah right, I just don't think anyone should ever blame themselves for I mean for any of the outcomes. Things like just everyone here has had complications or things that happen and you getting preeclampsia or having fertility issues or this I mean all these having this, all these things are not. We just can't ever put that on ourselves. Um, I don't think that's helpful at all. But I mean, I guess you were, you were saying the medical environment.
Speaker 4:I do think I came from a place of being super hyper aware of complications and I mean this is what I'm called in for the complications or for the more medical birth. So whether that's a C-section or even if someone had an unmedicated vaginal birth and then hemorrhages afterwards, I'm called in then. So I see all of that. So I just it's weird that it didn't give me more anxiety during my pregnancy, but it's just I don't know. It just felt like this is the way that it is for me. But as far as I don't know how people feel about C-sections, I think when you have an unplanned C-section, there's always so many other things around that besides the C-section itself that can create this feeling for people, like the grief or the guilt, and those are the pieces we're just always looking for. Where can we help these situations Like, where could these situations have been made better so that people can process things differently and not feel so much guilt and shame afterwards?
Speaker 4:And I do think that there are things that I guess the medical system can do, and one of that, one of the things we like to talk about a lot, is just making the actual experience of a C-section more birth like, and because I've heard you guys talk about this, things about bonding afterwards skin to skin immediately for the mom, if she can, depending on the situation, or we don't have just a lot of the support during those experiences. The stress levels are high. That's affecting all the hormones and everything, and so just taking anything down a notch I just think could make a big difference. You know we can't change medical complications. You know we can't, I mean, prevent. I mean we can prevent preeclampsia a little bit, but do you know what I'm saying? Like things are going to happen, complications happen, but, like what we're always trying to find, where can we improve the experience in some other kind of non-medical ways?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Wait, you can prevent preeclampsia, Sort of.
Speaker 4:In a subsequent pregnancy. If you take baby aspirin, the risk decreases a lot, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just learned that it actually comes from the man, like your previous position, which I was like, of course, uh-huh, just blame your husband no but yeah, if you have a different partner, there are chances are, but you know.
Speaker 4:But then it's also kind of, if your sister at it or your mother, you know there is some genetic component. I think I mean you can prevent it completely, but there are things we can do to lower the risk lower it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if you didn't feel as much anxiety because you knew all the different things that went into it and you're like, okay, I've seen this, I know what this is like, and you had so much knowledge that you went in being like I don't know.
Speaker 4:I mean, I kind of joked about it. I was thinking about this the other day that for anesthesia, anytime we have a patient, you classify them as, like low risk or high risk. So one is low risk, two, three, four. And something happened during my training where there was an announcement that everyone who's pregnant if you were a one, you're now a two just because you're pregnant, and then when you're not pregnant, you go back to being an ASA one. And this happened like during, you know, during my training, I think around the time of me getting pregnant. I would kind of joke. I'm like I'm an ASA too now.
Speaker 4:I was totally fine and healthy, but I got a placenta now, so I just, it sounds kind of rude, but that's sort of how we talked about things and and I was just. But it's so different when you experience things yourself, and that's, I guess, what I've learned too, Okay.
Speaker 3:But I think also to being a doctor and seeing the things that you saw before you had PIPA. You knew there was always a medical way to control it. And when you're not a doctor and you don't have that knowledge, that's when, like that feeling of like you feel out of control. You can't. You can't rationalize like oh yeah, I know they're going to have this, this, this and this. It's like you just feel like totally out of sorts and trusting, whereas Jen was lucky to be with people that she had worked with and trusted and knew that they would make decisions that were safest for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm sure that had to, completely Right, and I had my C-section was planned because my daughter was breached. I just okay. Well, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1:It just it made sense.
Speaker 4:I don't know. Yeah, of course I'm gonna have a C-section and I was kind of like, oh, I get to experience it now. But I did not love it, which is why I didn't try not to do it the second time around.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I love my recovery. Yeah, recovery is hard. I feel like that's why we talk a lot about ways that sometimes I guess it's the physical healing, but it's also so much of the emotional and the support that people provide you afterwards really makes a huge difference in your healing. And like how to ask your partner to help you, how to advocate, when you're in the hospital, different ways that can help your healing.
Speaker 3:Like for me, I struggled with my second because she was a girl and my daughter who passed was a girl. So like it brought up all this stuff for me and they had one of the nurses practice Reiki and she came in and did a Reiki session for me and I was like that is an amazing, why don't we provide this? Why don't we ask every patient if they would want this? Because I know it changed my healing, I know emotionally and physically, and so it's just beginning to see, like the and opening the eyes to the medical system, that like these more holistic ways can be entered into even in a C-section experience, because ultimately that will lead to a better outcome for that patient.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think the reason I asked you, Sam, if you had any guilt is because you were the one who didn't have a planned C-section. I think sometimes when you have it planned and you sort of anticipate it, it can sort of lessen some of that guilt. Yeah, I think, especially people who go in with very detailed birth plans and it doesn't go according to plan, I think they can be really really thrown. And I wanted to ask both of you do you think birth plans, I mean, do you think there's a limit to how helpful they can be?
Speaker 3:You want me to start. I really hate calling it a plan. It drives me crazy because I just think it's like if you have a plan and it doesn't go according to plan, who isn't going to be annoyed by that situation? I like to say goals or wishes, because then you're able to say I think it's good to be organized with different things that you maybe want, If you've never thought about. Do I want skin to skin? Maybe that's something you should think about. Do I want to try to breastfeed in the OR Like that is something to maybe think about ahead of time.
Speaker 3:But you're trying to have her C-sections but most people don't have birth plans for C-sections, I mean well okay, true, okay, but it's just but thinking about even in after vaginal delivery do you want to have skin to skin right away, or do you want to try to initiate breastfeeding right away? It's still that you should have with yourself and I think that. So having like guidelines are great, but when you have a plan and you're so like it has to be met this way, once things start not being met, it's like then it just spirals, and then you're spiraling and that sense of frustration then reaches a level that, even if it's a successful birth, even if you got to birth vaginally and that was your wish, if all these other things didn't get met, in that now you're feeling like, oh, it was a successful birth, and so I just I really don't. I don't think that it's wise to not go in with some sort of idea of what you would like, but I don't. I feel like you have to be able to be flexible Pivot, pivot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely did not have a plan. I remember they asked me what my birth plan was and I was like what do you mean? Like I want my baby out. Like what? Like, what is the birth plan? I'm like here's my papers If I have to have a C-section, cause they make you you both know this but they make you sign it a month before when you're like clear headed if you want to have your tubes out. So I was like, if I have to have an emergency C-section, get these things out of me. But that was the only thing. I was like I don't, I want my baby out and healthy and us to be healthy. That was like, and they're like no, but how? And? But I think that's something too like that you need to think about. Do you want to keep your placenta? Do you want to do all these things? The stem cells I didn't know anything about this because I didn't research any of it. I was just like oh, they'll tell me, did either. Did anyone here keep your placenta and do any of the pills?
Speaker 4:Are you talking about, like cord blood? Oh no, keeping the placenta? No.
Speaker 3:Placenta encapsulation. That and cord blood.
Speaker 1:I did the cord blood. I did not do the placenta encapsulation. Yeah, no, I didn't do the placenta encapsulation or the cord blood. I kind of wish I had done the cord blood. It just didn't even occur to me in the moment because it was such a whirlwind. But I remember when I was reporting in the space there was that I'm sure both of you know the incident of the mom who was eating her placenta pills and she passed an infection to her baby.
Speaker 4:What? Yeah, yeah, there's a big warning against that because of that risk and no proven benefit. See, that's the thing with birth plans, I think, is that's the stuff we think about is like just some things that are not endorsed by medical professionals or by research and and and there's sort of this inherent lack of trust in your providers. I think sometimes when people come in with a quote, unquote birth plan where it's, you're kind of ready to fight, like you think that whoever's taking care of you is not going to be doing what's right for you or what's best for you, safest for you. If it's, if that's the type of birth plan we're talking about, I just I don't think it's just great to be in that mindset where you're not really trusting the people taking care of you. And if it's a really medical topic, like I hope you could ask your provider, you know, is it safe for me to be eating my placenta? Should I be doing that or should I be doing you know where? They don't clamp the cord and keep the placenta on the baby or whatever it is?
Speaker 4:Things that are not recommended basically in normal scenarios. And then other things where, when it's just how you want to manage your pain. You know what are my understanding, your options ahead of time and that's a personal choice and you can think through those options ahead of time and plan it in that not something I would recommend, but obviously this is literally what we do is kind of birth prep. So I believe in that very much and understanding things as much as possible, but also being with providers that you really trust is just super important, yeah.
Speaker 3:I would say that always goes back to my situation in the beginning too was I had worked with that doctor as a doula, so it was like interesting that all of a sudden our relationship obviously shifted dramatically after that. But I didn't really love her and so when I went to get pregnant again that is something I'm like I interviewed multiple doctors and even in some in honestly, like the first two minutes, I either liked them or I didn't. I was either like we're on the same page or we are not, and I feel like so many of our friends, even I'll ask them like do you love your doctor? And they're always like I don't know. I'm like why are we settling with doctors that we don't love or that we don't trust? Because, to Jen's point, you don't.
Speaker 3:You don't have to have such this strict plan if you trust the person taking care of you. So I think it starts at the beginning and I feel like some people don't even know you can interview multiple doctors. Absolutely you can. Do you want a big practice or do you want a small practice? Do you want to know that there's only two doctors, versus seven or eight doctors that you may not have any control of who delivers you? I don't know. I just think that those are really important things to think about, especially if you're coming out from a traumatic experience, to like really do your research to find somebody that you jive with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That person is going to be the first person whoever sees and holds your baby. Yeah Right, that's the first person in the world who gets to meet your baby, even before you do.
Speaker 2:So I didn't have a choice. A lot of people don't have a choice on who actually delivers your child. It's whoever is the doctor on call that day. So, like I loved my doctor, so maybe that's why I didn't feel like I like she's amazing she. I might cut this out, but she left her husband because he wasn't supportive enough and was part of that. I think he was part of that. She called him the male pale in Yale and and so I loved her, so we. But she was there to put the Foley bulb in. So I think that's another thing too, is you don't always like, if you're like I'm at a big hospital, you don't get to choose who delivers your baby at a big hospital you don't get to choose who delivers your baby.
Speaker 4:That's true. It's just not the reality, even just depending on where you live we were in New York City there's a lot more options, a lot of many amusing OBs to choose from. I mean I was very, very lucky in that because I was working. You know, this was literally a colleague of mine. I mean I knew everybody and she, you know, even for my she delivered, you know, for my scheduled C-section. But then my OB, you know, stayed with me past when she was supposed to be at the hospital. Like I got special treatment basically. So I was very lucky. But that's not normal, for sure, and there's just often not a lot of as many practices where we live now compared to where we were before to choose from, it's just the reality.
Speaker 2:But, if you can get that feeling, that is obviously really helpful and I had a manager one time when I was in my 20s and she had a VBAC and it was a really big deal for her. She was trying really hard and I didn't understand kind of I get it now more that I'm a mom like why you would want to do that. But what was that decision like for you and how, what did that look like and why and all of those things and all of those things, so.
Speaker 4:So when I found out my daughter was breech, my OB immediately said to me well, this is just, you know, all going to be a one-time C-section and you're going to have a VBAC the next time. So she kind of just put that idea into my head and I was like, okay, great, I didn't even know what the C-section was going to be like, I didn't, but I had sort of that planted in my mind. She was like no big deal, this is your first C-section, the you know, the chances of complications are low with primary C-section scheduled and then you'll just have a VBAC for your next one. So I sort of just had that in my head already. And then the reason I really wanted it was because my actual C-section was great. I mean, I was super comfortable and I didn't feel anything and it was just a great experience. But the second, my anesthesia wore off.
Speaker 4:I just had horrible pain and I think I actually I mean, I know either, I'm just a baby or I think it's not super common to have this bad of pain, just because I talk to people all the time who are recovering from C-sections and they're usually fine-ish, I mean for the most part. But I was not fine. I was just laying in bed, not moving, crying in pain, not fine.
Speaker 2:At the hospital or at home.
Speaker 4:In the hospital and after, and then I just had a bad, you know, I just never sort of got over that, I think, that experience of just really feeling there's just so much pain and then, of course, like moving, and I think maybe, maybe it was more normal. But I needed the opioid pain medications, for I think it was eight days and and so I didn't want to, I didn't want to go through that again. And now I had a toddler too. So I was like, oh no, it's just going to be way worse this time around. So I had made a lot of plans for optimizing my pain after surgery if I were to have another C-section. And I completely went into the pregnancy and even the birth just telling myself, look, if you end up having another C-section, you came up with ideas like how to make your recovery experience better, but I'll just see how it goes. So she was telling me my baby was measuring kind of big and was looking like this wouldn't be a great VBAC you know, choice anymore. But she did a membrane sweep for me at 38 weeks and I went into labor two days later. So, and my C-section was scheduled for 39 weeks, and so when my water broke in the middle of the night I was like, let's see what happens when I get to the hospital.
Speaker 4:When I got to the hospital I wasn't contracting at first and then I started contracting. So I just kind of made each choice as things happened and tried to be really pragmatic. You know, I didn't want to go through if the baby was having heart rate issues or things started to get dramatic. I think I would have. Just, I just knew at any point I could be like never mind, let's go do a more controlled ish c-section and different things happen. But it ultimately it worked out and it wasn't roses. The whole labor experience and I had my epidural didn't work that great and there was definitely a period of time where I wasn't progressing, blah, blah, blah. But I just didn't know. I just kept making the choices and so for me, because my recovery was better, it was the right choice ultimately. But I didn't.
Speaker 4:I tried very hard not to care too much, I guess, like about what the outcome was yeah, I just like if it doesn't work, it happened for me, it doesn't happen for me, I'm not going to be. And who knows, right, maybe I would have been really upset. But I tried to tell myself don't be upset. If this doesn't work out for you, just do what's safest for you and your baby did you feel a difference in the bonding between your c-section and your vaginal birth?
Speaker 4:I actually think I had a harder time after my vaginal birth and I don't know so with my daughter. I mean, I very much remember seeing her for the first time and I was I don't know if it was a bond, but I I don't have any siblings, I just don't have many family members. So seeing this thing that was like mine, that was related to me, that looked I mean, she didn't really look like me at the time, she does now, but I had some kind of special thing with her. So I don't think I had really bonding issues, although the breastfeeding was the whole thing, but my son I was. So I was so worried about my daughter, you know the whole, even with the v-back, I kind of like v-backed for her, you know like I just wanted to make sure that she was going to be okay and that I could take care of her, and I think I maybe.
Speaker 4:And like, when can I her? I wanted to go home earlier so I could. With a vaginal birth, you can go home earlier than with a C-section, ideally. So I think it was actually harder for me to bond with him, but my breastfeeding was better with him. Things don't always make sense, right, but that just was my experience. And also it was COVID right that just was my experience, and also it was COVID right.
Speaker 4:I, you know, I was 20 weeks pregnant in New York City when the whole world changed overnight and I was an anesthesiologist, so they put us into ICUs and I mean everything I did just completely turned upside down. And I don't think that's something I've fully processed, what that did to me, because it was the first time that I've ever, you know, thought like am I harming my unborn child?
Speaker 4:or my 18 month old at the time by going to work. Like maybe this is the first time I'm going to stick up for myself and say I, you know, luckily there was labor and delivery still continues on during a pandemic the one area of the hospital that was functioning normally and so I was like I need to be on labor and delivery. I don't want to be in an ICU every single day, like emotionally, just what a lot of my colleagues had to go through. So I think that was there's other things that like maybe just that whole experience. And then I moved and basically like quit my job. I mean, I got a new job in Connecticut, but it was a lot happening that might've affected bonding with him.
Speaker 2:Maybe. Yeah, it is interesting, the 2020 trauma probably. I mean you two are probably very trauma bonded to going through COVID together, but I don't think really anyone's kind of process that Right, and I can't imagine what it was like being in the medical profession. I remember being so scared at home, just like watching this on the news.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I mean coming home and just like I was just showering outside, Like I mean you, just we had no idea, we didn't know, and I was so scared I was like do I go to every day and wake up and I would say, am I going to go in and do this again and potentially risk something you know?
Speaker 1:it was horrible.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but yeah. So I think, when it comes to bonding, I think there's a stress of any kind related to whatever piece of the journey I think probably affects it the most.
Speaker 3:I would say I think you brought up an interesting point too. It's hard when you have one at home that you like have so much one on one time and you like really know them. And then, yes, you're happy to have this newborn baby, but like you don't know them. You're not like falling crazy in love with them. You're like, well, you're out of my body, you're alive, I'm alive, I'm OK. But again, I was like the same. I thought so much about my.
Speaker 3:I remember like just like bawling before I left for the hospital and being like, should I, should I wake him up and say goodbye? Should I not? And being like, should I, should I wake him up and say goodbye? Should I not? You know, and it was like this, like, so I think that that really like to Jen's point like there are these layers that are harder for bonding, sometimes with your second or your third, because you're so hyper focused of what's at home and what you could leave behind if something went wrong. So I think it's almost like, let let's normalize that. Like it's okay to not feel this like immediate bond all the time, and I think that that's where a lot of mom guilt comes in. We don't have that initial feeling of like this is amazing, like it just takes time yeah.
Speaker 2:Some people have it immediately but, like, my husband had it immediately and I was like what? Is wrong with you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I think I did with my daughter, but you just never know. It's just so it's normal enough, like we hear people tell that to us almost all the time. Yeah, that they had trouble and we don't really know. You know what is a normal amount of time to start to feel really bonded. Is it just because it's not that first second. But you know what, if it's the first week or a month, how long is really delayed bonding?
Speaker 3:And how different it is for everybody, and that's okay.
Speaker 4:And if you're going through complications postpartum, I mean, how does that not throw a wrench in things right?
Speaker 2:Right. I have a question about anesthesia and C-sections. Why is there shaking? I remember when I was getting my, I was like why am I? I also get very nauseous, so I was throwing up the whole time but like I was shaking uncontrollably and I was like what is this? But it happens every like I've had my appendix out and I remember it happening then. So what is this shaking? Because I think that's something that most people also don't talk about? Is there's uncontrollable shaking when you have C-section for some people, for some people, yeah, Did.
Speaker 4:You was the shaking worse with your C-section than after your appendix came out, probably right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. Well, I was awake during the C-section and not with the other, so I don't I remember being really cold after my appendix and shaking and I was just freezing, but like this was like shaking the entire time.
Speaker 4:So you, had an epidural right? Yes, yeah, so probably it's. There's a lot of things that can cause shivering. It's much more common with an unplanned C-section with an epidural, because we use a different medication than we do in a spinal for a planned C-section, and it's the lidocaine. I tell everyone not every everyone, but like 95% when we're using an epidural for a C-section, in that setting shake from the medication. But then there's also it's sort of a combination of things. So there's all the hormones. So people sometimes are shaking already in labor and then it sort of gets worse once we give the medication. And then if you're getting a lot of IV fluids, if you are bleeding extra or maybe giving you more IV fluids, those are not the same temperature as your blood, so your body temperature is going down.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting yeah, and because I was getting transfusions.
Speaker 4:No, yeah. So because you're numb, you don't really feel cold, but you or at least you won't below like the level of your anesthesia. But your blood vessels are dilating and releasing a lot of heat too, so you're getting all these cold fluids, you're releasing heat, so part of it is could be actually being cold, but then it's hormones and medication are kind of the the nice combination that makes it really miserable for people.
Speaker 2:So interesting. I've never heard anyone describe it before. They everyone just says, it happens, but there's a cause.
Speaker 4:It's multifactorial like many things, but in your case I promise you it was. If you would have gotten a spine like it spine I think it was a lot of the anesthesia for that really bad shaking like where you literally can't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's awful.
Speaker 2:And then you're like oh my God, I'm so dramatic.
Speaker 4:I know People are like I'm okay, I swear oh, and because we did an episode on this. The other one is like anxiety. Anxiety, is true, does truly make people kind of shake, but it's usually. But most of the time people are like I'm not even really that nervous. But of course, especially if you're having this unexpected surgery, you're about to have a baby, you're about to become a mother, you're all of your, your adrenaline, everything is kind of surging. So that's going to contribute a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah that makes the medication yeah for your pain did they offer you so I can't take, like the opioids or whatever I throw up from them? And so they just kept giving me more epidural, like they just kept my epidural in for my entire I think it was that next day at least like six hours or something did. Did they give you that option since, or did you just not even know that you had such bad pain? So they took it out and no, so well, I have spinal.
Speaker 4:So I actually I did have an epidural because it's a long story, but they tried to like vert her right before my C-section and then they would.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? What does it turn the?
Speaker 4:baby and and ecv. Oh yeah, that's a really painful one, right? It's really bad. I actually did it twice. I did it once without anesthesia at 37 weeks and then I did it again at 39 weeks, because they were just.
Speaker 4:I can't believe you did that, I know no anesthesia, why my pain was bad okay but I did have epidural but we don't really at that. I've worked at a few different hospitals and I love that that was an option for you, but it's not really something like as an anesthesiologist that I really offer for patients, because one the hospital has to have the the nurses have to be okay with it who are taking care of you. In postpartum did Were you still on labor and delivery.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I was still in recovery, they came and they were like no, we have to do this because you can't throw up, like we can't have you throwing up after a C-section, and so for them, that's why they were fine with it, oh yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 4:I think it's a really really good option for people who have severe nausea and vomiting. I think that's a really great way to do it. The problem is this whole wanting to get your urine catheter out soon, and we want to get you moving and walking around because were you able to walk around when you?
Speaker 2:had the epidural. No, no, I can't remember. I feel like they had it in me for a few. I know in recovery they had it and then they came in one more time and they re-upped it when I was in like the room, and they got me up and walking as soon as it wore off. It was like you need to.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so it gave you that extra period of time. So it's sort of. I guess it depends how much longer we extending the numbness and then waiting for it to wear off, but we could probably get people comfortable for at least a few hours afterwards. But for me my pain was really bad the next morning. Okay, so it was the next day, so you didn't even know when I did have to start to get up and go to the bathroom. That's when I was sort of shocked by my inability to do so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is it true that, like when you have a lot of muscles, like when you work out a lot, that it can be more painful for the recovery?
Speaker 4:I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I feel like I worked out a lot in my second and third pregnancy.
Speaker 3:I was really nervous to work out in my first pregnancy understandably but I also it's hard to say because I had I had to find ways to still pick up my other children while I was healing from a c-section. So I had like a lot of tricks of like how they would crawl up on me or how they would get up on the couch and like you know, luckily, because you still have that little bit of a belly I could like just still point to my belly because they were young. So like having a conversation of like mommy just had a big surgery wasn't really something they could understand. I don't know. I do in some ways think that my second and third recoveries were better, but I, because I learned from my first as well I guess that that's the benefit of having multiple C-sections is I made changes to each way I was recovering.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't know about. I feel like it's always good to exercise. Please exercise, especially on your ground. So I can't I, I don't know know that's such an interesting question, one thing that I've seen because I've looked up. You know, I, you know, I know a decent amount of about breech babies because I had one and I continue to take care of patients who have breech babies. But one of the kind of risk factors for a breech baby is would be like tight abdominal muscles, like the baby, which is why when you're it's like your second or third of the baby's breech baby is would be like tight abdominal muscles, like the baby, which is why when you're it's like your second or third of the baby's breech, it kind of spin around multiple times and then they end up head down. But I don't know how that might've affected recovery.
Speaker 3:Well, I can't tell you. Jen's going to go and do a deep dive on it. There'll be an episode on that one.
Speaker 2:I've always had weak abs, so maybe that's why my recovery.
Speaker 3:That's an interesting point. Yeah, I mean, I think that these are the things that we all do, we like play in our heads like what was it this, was it that? You know? Always trying to find like the rationale, and sometimes that maybe just isn't one. That's like a hard factual, scientific finding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing about C-sections too. I don't know if anyone else had this, but I didn't have it diagnosed because I didn't see my doctor after I gave birth, like ever. And but the diastasis recti the separation, I remember trying. I don't even know if I'm saying these words right. I can't even say my conditions, that I had right, you actually just had it right.
Speaker 2:You did Okay, so I remember trying to work out, because I, you know, got right back into it and it was so hard I could not tighten my abs and there's nothing that I could do, and so my lower back kept hurting and I went and got this thing called M sculpt and now I like I'm just starting to do body tone again, but it actually I don't know if anyone's ever heard of it on here, but it- gives you it's, it's like a thousand crunches in a minute or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the little electro current right. Yeah, they hook it up to your abs. And I remember going in and I was like, yes, I want my stomach flatter, but I need my back, my core, to be stronger, and I cannot get there. And that was the thing that got me to the point where I was able to start working out again without being in back pain. Have you all heard of that before or tried it or anything like that?
Speaker 4:Because I'm like am I crazy? I've heard of it, I haven't tried it. I kind of want to, because my core is not great anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just started doing body tone and now it's not, go, try it out.
Speaker 3:So I actually had a surgery to repair mine because I had a almost four inch separation and it was like this is never going to heal on its own.
Speaker 3:You could do all these different exercises, but what I will say is I, too, got back into exercising probably way too soon After.
Speaker 3:My pregnancies were also close together, so could that have been part of it as well? But I do think I was doing the wrong exercises and I wish, I mean, if I could go back. I wish that I would have found someone who I trusted in PT, who could have given me the right exercises and I'm really excited we're going to have someone on who, you know, is super knowledgeable about it because I do think that is a mistake a lot of women make is we're so hyper to get back to like finding some self, sense of ourself, and it's like for me, like working out was such like a mental health part of my life, and so to not do it seems like, well, I have to and I want to get back to myself and I want to wear these jeans again. But the bounce back, yeah, it definitely. It definitely did not serve me well because I wasn't doing the right exercises and that was a very painful recovery of a surgery.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think in general we're just ignoring, like women just have whatever their birth experience is, and then we just kind of ignore them postpartum and as compared to we kind of make the joke the guy who like man who goes in for his knee surgery and he's set up with a physical therapist and all these things and exercises and things to do and for us.
Speaker 2:We're just kind of left.
Speaker 4:You know, here, take care of a newborn baby and you're recovering from you know whatever it is. And we don't have I mean, I certainly didn't have any idea of how to move my body, how to organize my home or do any of those things, and now we're. I think we started to hear more from physical therapists who are talking about you know, cause, it's not just pelvic floor, it's how you, how you move this and that but also occupational therapists that can actually come into women's homes after a C-section and make sure things are set up in the right way, like if you have stairs or this or that. There's so much more, so much more we can be doing and should be doing to improve our recoveries, instead of blaming it on everything that happened before. But like, what can we do now? Like we're also just that period of time when your body is healing is so important and what can we be doing then? We're trying to figure that out, yeah.
Speaker 2:That would have been amazing, like having an ergonomic specialist. I remember at my first job there was an ergonomic person. They had to come and set up your desk correctly and make sure. All of that I'm like why don't how nice Right.
Speaker 4:What about for the great business?
Speaker 2:idea, somebody should do that, I mean even breastfeeding right Like for the post-seasection momssection, moms, yeah and the breastfeeding
Speaker 1:that you're like lopsided half the time and like yeah, it's just, it's terrible yeah, is it like breast feeding or like frozen shoulder?
Speaker 2:like what mommy wrist?
Speaker 4:yeah, you know about that yeah.
Speaker 1:Does anyone else have itchiness and like irritation around their c-section scar, or is it just me? Oh, to this day To this day, oh to this day oh interesting and you're six years out.
Speaker 1:Six years out I had appendicitis so I had an appendectomy, I had a DMC, I had a hysteroscopy for my fertility treatments and then I had it's where they get tissue out of your uterus. Basically, I had polyps and stuff taken out and then I had a C-section all within 18 months. So that might be why I have so much scar tissue there.
Speaker 4:But yeah, it's still really uncomfortable On the outside.
Speaker 1:It's under the skin.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 4:Interesting Under the skin, but it's itchy you said what does your doctor say?
Speaker 2:Have you told your doctor?
Speaker 1:I haven't. I probably should my scar felt insane.
Speaker 4:It was numb, itchy. I remember for, I think, a year at least. It was like I knew it was there. Do you know what I mean? Like whatever it was, like I just knew exactly. I could tell you, like with my eyes closed, like where it was on my body, and the numbness eventually went away and like I mean it was, it was. It was like a long process, but now so I'm seven years out in two weeks and it's like well, I have a question how was the healing process for you?
Speaker 3:Did you have any like infections or anything during your healing process?
Speaker 1:No, that was like. The least of my concerns was the C-section recovery, just because I had postpartum stuff. But yeah, no, my recovery was fine. I would say my leading up to my delivery and after my delivery were very complicated, but my delivery itself was very smooth too. So I don't know, I think it might just be an accumulation of scar tissue from all of that stuff. But yeah, I can feel the scar tissue under the skin if I feel around.
Speaker 3:That is so interesting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so there's a lot of you know when it comes to I don't know who knows, there's a lot of different things. If you had any pain, you know there's these rare nerve entrapment syndromes that people can get, like from some of the nerves that run in that area and depending on, like where your C-section scar is.
Speaker 4:You know mine's super low and some of those are like higher and some are wider and just depending on all of that. But things that I did not do, that I wish I would have done are like the scar massage, which is another thing physical therapists can do. But yeah, I feel like a dermatologist or a plastic surgeon could tell you. You know exactly. Yeah, I should have it looked at. Yeah, Add it to the list.
Speaker 2:It'll look all your free time Exactly.
Speaker 4:One day I'll go get my scar checked out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just another thing to deal with. Yeah, I have to tell you all a funny story about my son and C-section. So he knows his birth story, well, part of it. He knows that he came out of my belly and so he just thinks all babies are born that way. Until recently I was telling him there are other ways and they come out of a vagina, and he's like that is weird and he thought that every baby was delivered via C-section. It's funny because, like he likes to hear about being born in it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I tell him, I tell my daughter I'm like you, this is your scar, she's like where did Hank come out A different way? Yeah, Like I think it's so cool to I don't know yeah, it's like that permanent mark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess people look at it differently, like I think that's another thing. It's like it took me a couple years to like be like this is a part of me. It's like a tattoo my scar.
Speaker 2:I guess I don't even notice my scar, as you all have been talking about. I'm like I can't remember the last time I even looked at it. But yes, that first year, I think, was hard and it I can't remember the last time I even looked at it, but that first year, I think, was hard and it was not comfortable. And the numbness. I remember having a lot of numbness but like now, yeah, and how common are C-sections? Does anyone know that? I'm going to look it up One in three.
Speaker 4:So one in three births about. So it's like 34%. But we only get data like it's always delayed, right. So the most recent data that we'll have for the United States is from, I think, two years ago and it's gotten up to that 30%-ish mark. And I want to say I just looked, I think the last year that we have D-Day went down like a little. We're talking like 34 to 33 or something like that, but it's essentially one in three, but that doesn't mean one in three women. That means one in three births, right. So they could be, you know, coming for a repeat C-section and but it's pretty common, yeah, pretty common, I don't know. Yeah, so morbidity or mortality, those are kind of two different terms. So morbidity is probably pretty high.
Speaker 4:So you guys suffered honestly like morbidity, I mean if you had a hemorrhage or preeclampsia stuff like that For mortality that should be much lower, um, but that includes up and you know death within one year of of giving birth, so that could be that includes you know, mental health things and all of that.
Speaker 4:It's sadly my biggest thing I want to say about that is that we as a country have spent very little time looking at it and there's certain states like California is really good at actually getting real data and real numbers. We not that long ago just started adding it to death certificates and then you don't really know like was that? Was it added when it shouldn't be or was it not added when it should have been? We just don't have because we don't have a universal healthcare system. We don't have. I don't think what would be more helpful information on all of that. But it's considering how much you know money we have in this country and resources it shouldn't be what it is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Say that. But like we should not, it should be, pretty rare. You know that. You know we're having women die of pregnancy or childbirth, but thankfully I mean now it's like I have to knock on, like everything because this is what I do for my job you know, but it's not something like. That's really really horrific and rare when those things happen, but what my mind is, I don't know, it's 18.6 deaths, so this is 20 deaths per her 100 live births.
Speaker 2:So this was a decrease from the 2022 rate of 22.3. However, in the 2021, the rate was significantly higher, at 32.9 percent, and Black women experienced much higher. So what is that? So 18.6, but that's not my thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I should be able to do this in my head.
Speaker 3:What are?
Speaker 1:we doing.
Speaker 4:What's the actual percentage? If it's eight, shouldn't that be?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's very, very low, like 0.0000.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, it's very, very, very low. But it's higher than you know some other places and there's a whole thing about. Something just came out recently, some study a lot of OBs were talking about and they were kind of arguing you know how good. You have to really look at how good the data is basically and people argue that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it says we're ranked 55th globally in terms of maternal mortality.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And actually in 2024, it went up to 32.9 deaths per 100 live births. Anyway, I'm going to go down a rabbit hole after this.
Speaker 3:We're not supporting women in postpartum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the different. This is mortality rate, so I'm curious about the morbidity right now. Anyway, I know we are past time here and going down the tangent, we feel like we could go down a lot of rabbit holes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because now I want to know the morbidity rate, because now I learned a new word. So we always wrap up and we I hopefully we'll be able to do a part two. I don't know if you would be interested or maybe we could talk another time, but we like to wrap up with two different questions. So, for both of you, what is an unexpected joy that motherhood has brought you?
Speaker 3:I mean, I think I just like didn't realize. Like when they say or do things that I'm like wait, I say and do that too, like how much joy that would bring me to be like they're my little people, like there's no one else on this earth who's going to react that way. And the reason you react that way is because, like you're a part of me and I am a part of you and I think that's been like it just makes me giggle and sometimes I cry. I always tell my kids I'm like these are happy tears because I'm a crier and they do. They truly bring me to tears with some of the things that they just effortlessly do and they're just little things. Yeah, that's fun.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't know that's such a hard. I'm like I'm obsessed with my children, like literally. I mean I'm obsessed. I didn't even like kids before I had my own, but I just love them so much and it's so it's really hard to pick one thing, but I, they just, they just mean so much to me and I feel like I, I learn so much about what matters in life and they have, you know, just this wisdom. That is really just that. I don't know that they see things, I think, that are that I don't even see sometimes, and I just really learn from that innocence, I guess.
Speaker 2:That's the word.
Speaker 4:It's their innocence and they're just the thoughtful questions and the empathy. I mean my daughter is just the kindest soul and I'm just so proud of that and I don't know. They're my pride and joy, they're everything.
Speaker 3:They're pretty amazing right.
Speaker 4:A lot. I don't know.
Speaker 1:If you had to give someone who's about to experience birth, pregnancy, parenthood whatever you want to take here for the first time one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 4:All right. This is what I always say is that there is no one gets it easy the whole way along. So meaning I feel like you, if you had a difficult time with getting pregnant, or maybe your pregnancy was difficult or birth, or then maybe like the newborn stage will be easier or kind of vice versa, right, if everything went really smooth, like maybe it's just no one I don't think anyone gets off completely scot-free from this experience and so I don't know, maybe just acknowledging this, that sounds like really negative, I guess, but it's, it's, it's so worth it and it's. That's just sort of like a part of what it is.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's advice, but I think that's good advice. On the flip side too, not everyone gets like. Not every stage is going to be hard.
Speaker 4:So if you're having a really hard first part of it, yeah, like maybe that's why you know exactly, like maybe this part was bad, but then you're going to have, like a beautiful birth experience, and then it's just Exactly Like I was trying to to think, put that in a positive way.
Speaker 3:Well, it's like you're not going to accomplish something great without like the ups and downs. Like it's so like you appreciate the highs so much higher when you've had these lows too, and they, they have to balance each other. And you're like it's like when you don't feel well and then all of a sudden, you get or you feel better and you're like, oh my god, it feels so good to feel healthy, but like two weeks ago, when I felt fine, I didn't even think about it. So I think that's how parenthood is just this roller coaster, that it won't always be an upside down twirl. Like you will hit a flat line at some point, yeah, and get help.
Speaker 4:Yeah, whatever that means, yeah, whatever that is whatever that looks like for you, do not be afraid to ask for help. That's huge right. Yeah, for sure I mean, what's your advice?
Speaker 2:Mine would be.
Speaker 3:I tell myself every day I'm doing my best. And I did that all through, honestly, from like the moment I like even just got pregnant, I was like you're just doing your best and that's enough. And it's a lesson that I tell my kids every day too. I'm like you're doing your best. I just thought of another one.
Speaker 4:Okay, not another one. At first I couldn't think of any. But the like in that same vein is if you are worried that you're not doing you know something in the perfect way, then you are already doing a good job because there's so many people who aren't like taking all this time to worry. Am I doing this proper and I'm spending enough time with them, like if that is going through your mind, like you're a good mom and like don't forget that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great advice. Well, I hope we can talk to you again, but so much for giving us so much. I know me too. Now we can sit, literally. I was like man. We're definitely going to do another one At some point. We're going to have to talk to each other again because there's so much. I have so many questions.
Speaker 3:Yes, we have questions about your births.
Speaker 4:for sure I've already listened to them, but I still have more questions yes, same. But yeah, no, thank you so much for having us on.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us.
