The Truth About: Being a Mom in America with Reshma Saujani

Want to know why motherhood in America feels like a solo sport—and how we turn it into a supported team game? We sit with Reshma Saujani, founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First, to unpack the design flaws baked into school calendars, workplace norms, and city life that make caregiving harder than it has to be. From random half-days and late starts to inboxes that only email mom, we trace how policy and culture quietly draft women as default parents while calling it “choice.”

Reshma takes us upstream, connecting patriarchy’s origin story to modern expectations, and then downstream to practical fixes: splitting domains at home instead of vague “help,” inviting community back into weeknights, and letting kids witness real conflict and repair so they build resilience. We explore the pandemic’s role as a wake-up call—revealing that burnout wasn’t personal failure but structural neglect—and how that clarity launched Moms First, elevated childcare as a core affordability issue, and brought fathers into the coalition through new alliances.

We also talk about pace and health. Perimenopause, anxiety, and sleep shifts force a rethink of the grind; boundaries aren’t indulgence, they’re infrastructure for long-term impact. Along the way, we challenge the false choice between trad-wife fantasies and girlboss hustle. The third path centers policy, community, and workplaces that measure outcomes, not hours—places where caregivers can do pickup and still do big work. And yes, there’s joy: the shock of a child seeing a giraffe, the permission to feel and grieve in front of our kids, the ordinary awe that reminds us what we’re fighting for.

If you care about childcare, paid leave, sick time, equitable partnerships, and building cities that welcome families, this conversation is your blueprint. Listen, share with a parent or policymaker, and leave a review to help more people find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Reshma Saujani
• 2:58 School Schedules vs Working Parents
• 6:58 Why U.S. Motherhood Feels Broken
• 10:28 Patriarchy, Power, and Policy Roots
• 14:58 Trad Wife Trends and Economic Anxiety
• 18:58 Community vs Individualism in Parenting
• 24:28 Emotional Openness, Conflict, and Kids
• 31:28 Equitable Partnerships and Default Parent Myths
• 36:58 Help, Villages, and Avoiding Burnout
• 41:58 Perimenopause, Pace, and Health
• 46:28 COVID as Catalyst: Founding Moms First

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:29

Hi everyone. Today's guest is Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First, among so many other things. She's also a best-selling author, a lawyer, a politician, and a mom of two. Honestly, I could try to list all of Rashma's accomplishments and accolades, but we would be here for a very long time. Rushma is a true advocate for moms, not just for systemic change, but for a shift in the culture of American motherhood as well. She's easily one of the most powerful forces in the world of maternal advocacy and one of my absolute favorite people to follow and enlist as an expert source anytime I write a piece about motherhood in the United States. We're so excited to chat with her today. Rushma, welcome to Do You Want the Truth. Oh my God, thank you so much. That was so kind of you, Zara.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11

So great to be with you guys.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

Great to have you here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Rushma, where are you based? Uh I live in New York. I live in Charleston.

unknown: 1:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18

Nice. Yeah. Yes, the best city in the world. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

I mean, it is fun. There's definitely an energy there. I used to live in San Francisco and now I'm in the suburbs, and I'm like, this is very slow comparatively, and like snail's pace compared to New York.

SPEAKER_03: 1:35

And it's also just, I mean, this week I did a I saw a play I've been dying to see John Proctor Villain, who have come to New York, you should absolutely see it. And then I did a sound bath in like St. Bart's Cathedral. It's like the things that you can do in the city are just like no other.

SPEAKER_00: 1:52

So I I and I take advantage of it. I did a sound bath in Grace Cathedral here in the city here one time. You know, the candlelit. You know, pre-kids when I when I used to do sound baths and things like that. How how old are your kids again?

SPEAKER_02: 2:05

They're five and ten. I need sound baths now. I feel like I've back then for pre-kids, I didn't really need it, but I'm just like, I'm gonna reset myself.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

Yeah. Yeah, that I'm now I'm gonna have to go look up and see when there's a sound bath. How old are your kids? My kid will be five next month. Okay. I have twins who are six. Okay, so we're all kind of yeah, so I have five and ten.

SPEAKER_03: 2:25

So we're all we are our kids are kind of in that same genre.

SPEAKER_01: 2:29

Yeah. Yeah, the school-aged kids, which you know, everyone tells you that everything falls into place and you don't have to worry about childcare once your kids are in school. But apparently that was a lie. Big lie, right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:41

I mean, I I just the fact that like we've just never built workplaces for moms. I mean, the fact that the school day starts at 8:30, the fact that like, like we said, the last day of school is on a Thursday, it's just like the people that are making decisions back then and now are just not, I just don't think consider caregivers and how to actually build systems and structures around parents and and the people that are working.

SPEAKER_00: 3:09

And I kind of wonder if it has to do, I know it's different in every city. I don't know what it's like in New York, for instance, but I know in the Bay Area, private schools, you have one half day versus 69 half days at public school. And, you know, school starts later, but you get out later, and it's just more accommodating, and they have you're automatically in after school programs and all of this, you're just set up so differently. I don't know the statistics of who in Congress goes to private versus public, but I now I'm gonna have to like dig into that because I have this theory that if everyone went to public school, our school system would look a lot different. Like if Congress ever all of their kids had to go to it, it'd look different. And your kids are in public? My kids are in public.

SPEAKER_03: 3:51

You're raising such a good point, right? It's just it's about design, right? Like when you are designing these things and you're making like the DOE calendar, like also like is that a congressional decision? Is that an assembly decision? And is that about having kids or not having kids or having somebody that is home taking care of them? So you just don't experience what it's like to have to, you know, because you would never build, like we would never build a work calendar the way as and I say this right as CEO who runs an organization. I would never build my work calendar the way we build a school calendar.

SPEAKER_00: 4:26

Ever. Yeah. Yeah. Has it changed? I wonder if it's changed since they like originally put it into place, or if it just hasn't changed and it was based on a single earning, single income household.

SPEAKER_03: 4:38

Yeah, I mean, but that was so long ago. So I just don't think that it's changed. You know, it's so interesting that we're talking about this because I'm reading a book right now. Uh my friend Anna Malika Tubbs wrote a book about patriarchy. And I've always been obsessed, you know, with the work that I do on American motherhood and passing childcare and paid leave of like, how did America get here? Because as you know, this is a very distinctly American America's the one only industrialized nation that doesn't have paid leave, the wealthiest nation that puts the least amount of money into childcare. And forget about just the policies. It's just even like you go, you know, you go to Norway or Sweden, and it is like restaurants are built with areas for children to play in so parents can chill and have. I mean, the entire way cities are laid out, they're laid out thinking about families. And we're just very, very opposite. And so, you know, I have a documentary that I've been working on that's coming out in May. It's just really going through that discovery process of understanding like, why is it? What is it about our culture, right? That just seems like if I was a conspiracy theorist, that it's just it's set up to make mothers' lives hard. It's set up to give us no choices, it's set up to give us no freedom, no ability to move in and out of motherhood in the workforce. And it's set to simply, I think, just defeat us. Like that's how I feel. How did that happen? When did that happen?

SPEAKER_02: 6:11

Capitalism.

SPEAKER_03: 6:12

Cap I you know, is it capitalism? Is it religion? I mean, what's interesting about her book, which kind of blew me away, was that actually, if you look back to the founding of our constitution, you know, if you think about Alexander Hamilton and John Adams, they're all a bunch of ragtag dudes that were 22 years old, that were rejected from the places that they were coming, right? That won a war that they were never supposed to win. They find themselves having this power. And the thing was, well, how do I project how do I protect it? Because what Anna says, which reminds me, I mean, it's not that because I was like, well, maybe the systems just started that way. It started with the binary. Men should do this, you know, men should basically provide, women should just care, right? And she was like, Yeah, but you have to remember, like, back then the you know, Indians, the the chief women were like the heads of the tribes were actually women. So there were very different systems that were not built on a binary, but the founding fathers chose a system that subjugated women because they wanted them to have children and because they wanted to attain power. And so that was a choice, and it was very fascinating. We keep vacillating between that, right? Like between being a trad wife and a girl boss. We keep vacillating between moments, right? Where we have and we're in a moment of intense traditionalism, you know, or a pull into intense traditional, or you could say patriarchy is is grasping for its last breath because you know it's on its way out, and that's why it feels so pervasive right now.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

Oh, uh I all I can think about is the princess treatment. Reshima, I don't know if you're on TikTok and on that side of TikTok yet, but the princess treatment lady and that whole thing, have you seen that? No, tell me. She Yeah. Um, it's this white woman. She lives in Utah and grew up Mormon, which is good context to have because I didn't have the context watching it, but she talks about how she doesn't do anything other than stay at home. She won't open doors when they go out, she won't speak to weight staff, she won't look at weight staff, she won't give her coat to the people, she won't order her for herself, and that's how you get princess treatment and it's soft in femininity, and you're not supposed to laugh loudly or speak over your husband.

SPEAKER_03: 8:28

And there's so much of this online right now. So much. There's so much of it. There's so much of it online. It's just it's it's fascinating. And I think at a time where, you know, 30% of young people that are graduating from college can't find jobs. And so I do think that some of these are like because of capitalism, because of the economic decisions that you have to make when you don't actually can't afford to rent and you can't find a job, to say we're presenting it as an option and a choice for women, an economic choice, which is just wild.

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

Yeah. It's kind of like so I talk about this all the time, but I grew up in a religious commune and like lived in Ashrams in India. And so the way I grew up is very different. And it's like community versus individualism, which again is capitalism versus like uh socialism, not communism, but you know, socialism. And when you pool all your resources together from childcare, from everything, everyone actually lifts up. But I feel like we are very um individualized in the states, and it's you stay in your box and you are going to the more money you save and the more money you make, and the more money people you step on, you're gonna get ahead. Whereas if we all pulled things together, we all get like all what is that theory about like alt boats.

SPEAKER_02: 9:46

Yeah, like something tides. Tides, something with tides and boats, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 9:49

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny. I I think it's like it's also, I think, distinctly American, the sense of like you have to do it on your own. Childcare is your personal problem that you have to fix. I mean, I even think about this, I don't know about you guys, like I have never called, like, I've sure, like everybody, has had moments where I'm like, oh my god, I need childcare. Where can I find it? My my my regular babysitter is not available. Where do I go? And I would never pick up the phone and call a friend. Really? And you no, it's not even something that I would either. What? Right. So what is that right? You wouldn't either, huh? What do you mean? Because I don't want to bother anybody.

SPEAKER_00: 10:27

Well, I will say I do things where I'm like, hey, let me trade you. Can you watch, you know, the kids and then I'll I do reselling on the side, I'll list your clothing that you want to sell on my stuff because I have a bunch of followers on there. And so we do like trades, but they're always the first people I call.

SPEAKER_03: 10:41

No, I would never. I wonder what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01: 10:43

But Rushma, I'm curious how you grew up because growing up in an Indian family, my parents and their friends, they don't even have to ask, right? People show up for everything. Yeah. My mom broke her hip recently, and there were, you know, people were just at the hospital with food. There was no need to ask. There was no need to put feelers out. They were just showing up. And we just don't have that in this country, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03: 11:07

Yeah. No, we live in community. Like, um, you know, we had a huge Indian community um where all of this, even with the intensive parenting, like we were never, we did whatever my parents wanted to do. They wanted to go hang out and play cards with their friends. We went over and we had to be friends with their kids' friends. And like that was that was it. There was no, I wasn't put in sports, I didn't have after school, da-da-da-da-da. It was, I didn't have any of that. It was like they worked there, they worked hard enough, struggled hard enough, and like we were just with them. And in some ways, I think they were happier.

SPEAKER_01: 11:41

Well, I think of your Dr. Becky interview, right? Where you talked about how parents are entitled to enjoy their weekends too. And I think in this country, that is such a foreign concept. You see all over social media people say, Don't ask me what I did this weekend. I'm a parent. I went to five different parks and I, you know, made a Costco run. Not that I don't love a Costco run, I do, but you know, there's this narrative that when you become a parent, you just hand over your right to do anything you want to do with your time.

SPEAKER_03: 12:09

Yeah, and it's really, really, really not good for our kids. We don't live our life, I don't live my life that way. Like I we do a lot of, I was like, I mean, obviously, I'm going to a sound bath at 7.30 at night during bedtime with my girlfriend. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm seeing a play with a friend or by myself, right? Like, and so during, you know, we I do a lot of my time or, you know, we do a lot of couple stuff. And then on the weekends we are very family focused, you know, because we're like a crew. But I I think I'm not as I'm I haven't I'm not as Western in terms of the intensive parenting I think that people are in now. I think I still retain the way I was raised, and I saw my parents kind of raise me in my own family. And I think it's I think it's it makes a really big difference. It's funny, non-sequitur, but like, you know, we we have our couple we do our couples counseling on Fridays, and we were running late because the kids were, you know, we took them and play tennis, we do family tennis, and anyway, so we're bumping up and we're you know, calling our therapist being like, Okay, we're gonna be home in like 15 minutes, we'll give you a call. And the kids were like, Oh, who are you talking to? And I'm like, it's Malika, the person who makes sure mommy and daddy doesn't fight, you know, and then it was hilarious. And then, and I was like, you know, my husband's like, hey, you know, you should ask Malica, how's how are we doing? You know what I mean? Are we are we and it was we had this whole conversation, right, with our therapists and the kids who knew who she was, would express her views about how well we were doing, not arguing. And afterwards, when we finally got home and did our therapy appointment, Malica just said this really beautiful thing. She was like, you know, I was really moved at how open you were with your kids about your about the problems that you're working on and like the genuineness of wanting to kind of get their opinion, right? And it it kind of reminded me of what we're talking about now, which is like them being reminded that we're people too, and we have things that we're working on. You know what I mean? That we need and that we're not gonna hide that from you, right? It's a very Indian thing. Our Indian parents never had their arguing or their drama, right? We were always in the thick of it. Um, but I again I think we're I think right now too, we kind of treat our children with so much kid gloves that we do protect them from a lot of these things. And then they don't have the same amount of resiliency or capacity to really function in relationships for that are really genuine. Because in relationships, you're gonna fight, you're gonna argue, you know what I mean, you're gonna have differences. And if you hide any kind of friction, it's why many times I think people can't be in relationships today because they're not comfortable with conflict and friction.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

Or they don't even know how to handle it. You have to you have to be taught how to handle conflict, how to resolve, how to deal with life's ups and downs. My husband is comes from a very waspy family, and they also, you know, they'll fight and stuff. But I was telling my son last night that our cat is dying, and you know, uh to prepare him because I think that's important, so so that she just isn't there one day. My husband's like, Don't talk to him about that. He's gonna get sad. And I'm like, no, you have okay, he can get sad, and that's okay. And we're and he's like, You both get so sad and emotional. I'm like, it's okay, that's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 15:23

It's so important. It's so I was uh, you know, I lost my soul dog last year, and I was a mess because I love Stan like more than anything. She was like my first child, and I was just I remember someone said to me, one of our, you know, one of our one of my husbands actually like one of our friends said, you know what, the biggest piece of advice I can give you is cry openly in front of your children. Like cry openly in front of your children, like don't try to hide it. And I think it's exactly what you're saying, right? They need to see us express emotion so that they can express emotion themselves, especially boys.

SPEAKER_00: 16:00

Yeah. Especially, yeah. We were talking to somebody the other week, especially white boys. I am raising a white boy in this world, and you know, there are things around that. How did your kids say that you're doing in terms of what was the report? We were doing better. That was like better, not not totally solved, but but much, much better.

SPEAKER_01: 16:20

And that that teaches them that you need to work on things, right? That teaches them that it's always a work in progress. Yeah, totally. And that like no relationship is like is perfect.

SPEAKER_03: 16:30

But yeah, no, it was um Yeah, I mean, I think that I also think it's like I think the way that uh relate it's funny, I had a on my podcast, My Soul Call Bid Life. I had my um I had a divorce therapist come on, Una Metz, who's amazing. And we were we were talking about like the pat the like what does conflict signal? You I mean in relationships in terms of like the health, right, of of a relationship. And I think it's less about the conflict and the way that you deal and manage as a couple with conflict. And I think we've gotten better at that. Because I think I think couples count- I'm a big are you guys in couples counseling? I think couples counseling is like key to like a marriage.

SPEAKER_01: 17:13

I'm not, but I think it's something that I would definitely try.

SPEAKER_03: 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:18

We were, we separated last year. Although my husband says we didn't, I just found out that he doesn't think we separated last year. Oh yeah, yeah. I'm like, what do you mean? Like we had this whole he's like, well, nobody ever moved out. And I'm like, but what? Um and so we went the whole conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 17:34

How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00: 17:36

Oh, I think recently told me that or he recently told me that. He's like, that didn't happen. And I'm like, okay, so this is like kind of like the core of our thing. We just have different ideas. Have you been living as like a as like thinking you're gonnagether? No. Okay. Um, so we were separated probably. Um, I went to see a friend last April and we saw Taylor Swift, and then we went on a family trip because even though we were separated, I'm like a we we do a lot of stuff with my son's friends. Um, and to your point earlier about making things like kids-centric, we're very family-centric. And so we have become friends with our son's best friends so that everyone can have a good time and we can go on trips. And we went on this fourth of July trip last year and we're doing it again this year with some of the same people. And we were like, oh, maybe, maybe our issues, like maybe when you see other families and how they function and you're like, oh, I guess we do function. Like this, like we're not the only fucked up ones, right? Like exactly. And not to say that every but everyone's fucked up. And so, um, and then so we slowly started working things out, and then he went away for two weeks to hike in Patagonia earlier this year. And I was able to kind of get back to myself for the first time after having our son and kind of stand in my power again and be like, nope, this is what I want to do and this is what we're gonna do. And we were able to come back to each other, but we stopped. Yeah, we stopped couples therapy and actually got better. But that's what people say, right? Yeah. It depends on your therapist, though, right? Really? Like if your therapist can help you work through it. And I and I will say, I don't think we would have come back together had we not gone to therapy, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03: 19:12

Yeah, I think it's not also I don't know if I think you need it forever. Like we're taking a break this summer, right? So I think it's I think you have to also figure out how you just because sometimes I'll I'll admit, like, I'll hold it all in until we talk to Malika on Friday, and then I'll just unleash, right? And that's not healthy either, because then you're you're not learning how to communicate with one another. Um, well, that's great.

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

Yeah, I mean, I think therapy is great, and I think getting back together if it works, it works. Um, and that's also something too, like learning that relationships like ebb and flow, and you're gonna be in the trenches sometimes. Did you all have couple were you in couples counseling before you had kids, or did issues rise after?

SPEAKER_03: 19:52

I think, yeah, for us, issues rose after. Can I ask about those issues? Yeah, I mean, listen, I I think for me, I feel like it's I think motherhood threw me for a loop. I had took a lot of time marrying the right guy, like who was gonna what I meant. What I mean by that is like I knew what I wanted to do in my life, that I wanted a big life, that I also wanted to be a mom, you know what I mean, more than anything else. Absolutely workaholic, like, you know, like I love what I do. Uh, and I I I just didn't want to feel like I was ever gonna be resentful, you know what I mean, to like my partner or my butt, and I really wanted kids. I always knew I was like the girl with all the dolls, you know what I mean, around her. And so when I finally got pregnant and finally had a kid, you know, and Nahal was absolutely one of, you know, like for sure, I wouldn't have even thought that it wouldn't, we wouldn't have a 50-50 relationship. And as, you know, as Zara, you might know, right? It's like I married an inny guy, and they think if they do more than their dads that they're doing a lot, right? Which isn't necessarily what what my definition would be about, you know, I mean doing a lot. Um so the imbalance in like the household work began when I had a baby, right? When I started breastfeeding and he had to go back to work and I didn't, and that the whole thing just started creating an enormous amount of like resentment. And um that combined with some wonderful in-laws fun stuff, uh, it just it was you know, it it's kind of like what every couple fights about one thing. And and it's and and the thing is I think in many times like sometimes a a stand-in for a bigger a bigger thing.

SPEAKER_05: 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:38

And I think where Nahal and I or where our kind of issue is we both have really big lives, very big dreams, very big jobs, very very curious people, and we have these two boys that we love the shit out of. And I think both of us would have benefited from like a life. You know what I mean? And we're all kind like we're all, you know, we're kind of in the center of really kind of of always negotiating who's who's who's more important at that moment, you know, whose work is more important at that moment.

SPEAKER_01: 22:12

Would you say you're the default parent?

SPEAKER_05: 22:15

No.

SPEAKER_03: 22:16

I well, no, because I think that no, because at the end of the day, so I I think that I'm the I know where all the stuff is and I manage the things, right? When the shoes are like when they've grown out of the shoes or they're getting rid of jackets. I think the the the logistics now, but Nahal manages all the activities and the play dates and the medical stuff, you know, and so it's not just he's not just doing bills and I'm doing everything else, right? There's like a mixture of some of the uh like of the unpaid labor stuff. Um I think that I just I make a lot more decisions probably based on the fact that I want to spend time with them. I want to be with them. I love being a mom. I love being with my kids, my like I love my crew. And the reality is, is like that means that like the things that you want to do can't always do.

SPEAKER_05: 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:20

Yeah. I think that I realize that that's more of like my choice and like yeah. It's not that my partner and Hall be like, great, go run for president. You know what I mean? Go knock yourself out, right? Like go to Africa for two weeks on a you know, on a s on a mission. I've never I've never been told I can't do something, you know, because I gotta because of the kids. It's just what I think.

SPEAKER_01: 23:46

Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting too is I think sometimes even if you have a really equitable partnership, the world will put you in that default parent position. The school will only email you, the doctor's office will only call you. You know what I mean? I feel like there's a lot of that stuff that moms just kind of have to have to handle because the rest of the world refuses to see dads as parents.

SPEAKER_05: 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:10

Yeah. And I think at the end of the day it's like you're kind of good at different things, right? So I can hold a more like I I can manage a calendar better. I can hold a lot more things like a re you know, like than than I think that that he does. I also just think that he doesn't have guilt and I do. And that's on me. I I often look at him as like an example of how I want to be in my next life. You know what I mean? Like, because he like lives life to his fullest, and he's g he would also say that the most important thing to him is being a father, being a dad, and being engaged. I mean, like, for example, like he organized, you know, a neighborhood basketball, you know, he calls it, you know, family basketball every Tuesday at like a basketball court where he organizes the whole freaking community and all the kids and they all show up and he sends the email out and you know, da-da-da-da-da. And I'm like, that's amazing, right? Like, I won't I aspire to do things like that, but I don't I'm like, I don't have the time, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 25:00

How do you I mean you're doing a lot of things? How how do you kind of prioritize that? Because kids take up a lot of time, so does your job, so does everything that you're doing, and your husband has yeah, so how do you all prioritize? Do you have a house manager? Do you have a nanny? How do you make it work? Because I can't make it work with when I'm working, and I I'm always so curious like how people do this and how it doesn't like break you.

SPEAKER_03: 25:25

Well, we definitely have a lot of, you know, we have we don't we have help, but I think at the end of the day, as you know, right, it it they if you're like and I I also work from home, so I can have somebody downstairs right right now, but at the end of the day, if they want something, they're still running upstairs and telling me, as you know. But I like that because for me, I feel like I have a partner, right? And so that that that really like that really works for me. So I don't I think that sometimes as women we feel like we have to do everything, and so I do not say no to help, you know, whether that is like you said, calling it like I'm bad where I'm bad at is like calling in a friend or bothering someone else unless I'm paying for it. You see what I'm saying? And that's like I'm that's my problem, right? Because there are plenty of people who want to help me, you know, and so I think because I think that that's having more hands, more bodies. We do have for us, like my son's best friends or he made best friends with uh when he was like one month old. So like their nannies, their parents, like we have a village at any moment, and I live in New York City, like at any moment there are ten children downstairs that people have just dropped off. You know what I mean? And so like we've created that sense of community, which I think is amazing. I think where I so for me it's uh less about the push and pull. I see my kids a lot. I spend a lot of time with them. In the places where I don't, which is like know every little thing and do 10 math problems with them and put them into I actually don't think they need all that. Meaning I'm glad that I'm not like like totally tiger moming them because I think they need a little bit of what I had, which is to be bored and figure it out and like etc. Where I fail from a time perspective is I run harder than anybody else. And so I'm often vacillating between utter depletion and boredom, and so it's not a good way to live, right? Where it's like I'm going, going, going, going, and then I'll crash, and then I'll feel better, and then I'll be oh I'm good, I can add a hundred things to my calendar, and then I'm back on the fifth, right? And so I gotta figure out how to live. It's kind of how I try to live in the summer is just on like a steady state, you know. And I find that really hard. And I think for me, the older I've gotten with menopause, like all these things are having a body, I have anxiety I didn't have before, I have hives I didn't have before, I have, you know, it's just that, and then if I'm not and I'm not getting perfect sleep, so all like the conditions that I could actually manage to live how I've lived for 15, you know, 10, 15 years of my life are now crashing. And so I've had to like re-jigger.

SPEAKER_00: 28:15

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, with okay, I'm super interested in like perimenopause and menopause because though that's coming up for me if I'm not already in it. Um and I mean you do have like those dopamine crashes too, right? Because what you're talking about to me is like um you're chasing a high, right? And you're you're packing your calendar and then you're just so depleted, and then you have to rest and then you start all over again. Did that happen to you before, like menopause, paramenopause, all of that, or before kids? Or were you just able to because I used to do the same thing where I would just pack it all up and then I would rot in my bed for two days, and then but you can't do that as a mom. You you just can't unless you are doing it during a weekday when they're at school or something.

SPEAKER_03: 28:56

Yeah, I mean it's so I have a husband who lets me rot for the weekend. Ooh, amazing. So I actually, this is when you were asking, like, am I the default parent? I'm like, actually, I think when I add it all up, you know what I mean? So I it's a similar pattern. I think if I looked back pre-kids, it was a similar pattern. I think I just can't do as much. Like I used to go to I would fly to three or four cities a week. And I could take a red eye, come home, take care of the baby, take him to school, come back, rest, do it again. Like, I mean, I when I was building Girls with Code, like this is kind of how I did it. And then I think like the pandemic for me ch you know, changed so many things about my life. But what it did was like, uh oh, I don't want to live like that anymore. Like, I don't like that. I don't like actually living in hotel rooms, I don't like being away from my children. I don't like you know what I mean, feeling sick and exhausted. And so the past three years, I think I've made a lot of really big changes. Like, number one, you know, I just don't travel as much. You know, number two, I I used to be inbox zero. Like, if you emailed me whoever you were, I would email back. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I am just a lot more um I I can't do the things that I need to do on this earth if I get sick. And I'm also at the age when I see a lot of women. Women my age, a little bit older, who were activists, who did and had got breast cancer in their sixties. You know what I mean? Had an untimely death, and they're often women, you know what I mean? And they're often women who have given like I have quite frankly all of my life to the cause. And I don't want to die when I'm 65. And so that means that like I want to see my kids live a full life. And I want to continue to do the work. And so I've really challenged myself to kind of live differently. And what's crazy is I feel like I've been able to build moms first. You know what I mean? Even bigger, easier than I than I built um Rolls and Coke without sacrificing the same amount of to my health.

unknown: 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

Was there a moment for you when you decided to really turn your professional attention to motherhood? Yeah, COVID.

SPEAKER_03: 31:29

I mean, I it was just COVID was a big eye-opener for me because I had my so I think if you had a baby during COVID, which we all probably did because they're all around the same age, it was a life changer. Like a total life changer because you you're you're going through this experience, and then it's the pandemic. And then for me, I was like rebuilding girls with code, and you're like, no one's coming to save me. Like, there's no help, this is bullshit. And so it was a big eye-opener. And I think once you see something, you can't go back. So I had bought into the like girl boss, kind of like I can color code my calendar, and it's all about me, and I guess I'm just a failing and not doing it right. And I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Like the system is failing me. And so that's what really inspired me to start moms first. I did not know what I was getting into. Uh this is by far the hardest thing I have ever done because motherhood, American motherhood in many ways is so fundamentally broken, but it's never no one's actually seen it in the same way you see climate or AI or reproductive rights. Right? We've approached motherhood in many ways through the influencer lens, right? And so building an a nonprofit, a movement around American motherhood has has been like so hard and so much fun, right? Because I love a good intellectual challenge. It's been hard because people just thought, well, this is the way it is. Like I or I or I suck. And so so much of the past couple of years have been about consciousness raising, making people have a bigger imagination of like what is possible. Yes, you can have free childcare. Yes, you can get 12 months off after having a baby. Yes, we can actually rebuild school calendars so that there aren't 60 half days, right? Like, yes, you know what I'm saying, it it actually guess what? Your partner doesn't suck. He is doing a lot, but we're told that they do suck, you know what I'm saying? And so now you like dude, there's just so much, so much, so much that could that can change, and so much, I think so much that I had really bought into without questioning, you know what I mean? And that and that, but it but it's but it's been um it's it's been really interesting. It's been really interesting building this movement. And you know, look, I think in like three years, like we have really elevated childcare as like a number one issue. I'm s I'm sitting here in New York City and like every mayoral candidate was fighting about who had a better childcare plan as like at the top issue about affordability. Like we never thought about childcare and affordability, even though it's always been the thing that is like the cost of it is like one bad day away from financial ruin for most families because of the cost of childcare. But we've never talked about it that way, we've never seen it that way, and we've been really able to kind of elevate and change the conversation to really make that possible. We've never looked I've never really mobilized with men, and just like we had a fatherhood summit a couple weeks ago, and I've just been dealing dealing, going deep into men and boys, and just again, like what is possible as we think about new alliances as we fight for these structures.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

But this is part of motherhood, right? It's like it is you don't get sick days, and if you do get sick days, what do you you know, like because we're talking about these 69 half days or 60 half days, and then that's not even accounting for all the time they get sick because I when I had a little kid during COVID, and I remember he was 18 months when he started going to daycare, and he was sick literally every every week for a year or more, and it's gotten better. Like that was something I was shocked about.

SPEAKER_03: 35:21

Yeah, I mean, this is the campaign we're doing with Airflow, right? It's like you know, 69% of people in America are working, you know, with have worked sick without taking a day off, which is you know, we're how we got to these health crises. And so, you know, so many people, you know, have to work and don't have access to paid sick time. And so like raising awareness about the importance of sick time, educating workers about their, you know, the right for them to be able to rest and recover. I'm like so passionate about this partnership with Airflow because it's just it's so, so critical. It goes back to saying like we need to shift people's imagination. You're it's like nor it's like, of course you work when you're sick. No. Like, no, you don't. You shouldn't have to. Like you we can imagine and build a world where you don't, where that is not the norm.

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

Well, and then you look at like Amazon, the one of the biggest employers. And do they even get sick time for their warehouse employees? Like, I don't I don't know about that, but then I'm watching, you know, his wedding in Venice that he spent like a hundred million dollars on after changing venues, and I'm like, we're so prioritizing the wrong things.

SPEAKER_03: 36:25

Yeah, we've so we're so self-focused. We're so focused about ourselves, and if it's it's just, but I think that people are fundamentally good. And so I think it's again about you know, I I I I did a speech about this recently. It's just I think we're just not connected in the same way. We don't eat with each other, we don't hang out with each other, we don't break bread with each other, we don't see each other, right? It's like we're so isolated. It goes back to motherhood, it's a great example, right? Like we have made motherhood in America so isolated, but when it's not like that anywhere else. And when you're in a sense of community, when you're in community taking care of a human, you know, it feels you're less angry, you're less depressed, you're less anxious, you're less medicated, right? Like there's so many health benefits that really come with creating a society that allows you to get care for yourself and your ch and the people that you love.

SPEAKER_00: 37:21

Yeah, it seems like a lot of people haven't witnessed how to live in community before because when my son was younger, we and we still do it now, we invited people over all the time. So we would have dinners with other families four to five times a week because I was just drowning in motherhood. And I that was the only thing that was like keeping my son occupied, and he would be nice when other people were around. And you know, my husband was happy. Like, we were all happier. And but it was one of those things where people hadn't seen that before in our community, and they're like, really? We can come over on a Tuesday night. You you don't care, this is fine. And even with some of his newer friends now, they're like, oh no, we're not gonna impose, you know, like we'll we'll just do. I just don't know how to get people to change their mindset about it and realize people aren't trying to take advantage of you. We want people here. It's easier to parent in community, it's easier to live in community, but people are so resistant to it.

SPEAKER_03: 38:14

Yeah. Well, you need it's so funny. Like my husband's that person who's like always has people over, always have the barbecue, always like, you know what I mean. And so I've I I think I'm so grateful to have picked chosen him as a partner because I think if I was left to myself, I'd like curled up with a book in my bedroom. You know what I mean? Even though I from my soul need more community. I think we just have to make more of an effort to create those spaces. Like, I think in some ways, where we're at right now in our country, we need more play. We need more, you know, Bryant Park in New York here. They do this like um musical chairs thing. I just I don't know, it's just the image for me that I think about when I think about like what we need more of is like just strangers playing games together.

SPEAKER_00: 38:57

Yeah, you know, it's what is this musical chairs thing? You sit in Bryant Park and you just play? Yeah, I guess they set up musical chairs.

SPEAKER_02: 39:03

I haven't been, I want to go.

SPEAKER_03: 39:04

I always but it's like but this idea of I I think I think communities are looking to figure out and maybe we should all do this this summer with our own friends of like there's something about play, yeah, right that I think adults really need more of. And I think that's where there's a real opportunity to play with one another. Like I have you know, friends in California. What's that game that they play? Um Lottery? It's like an it's like an it's like a it's like a Chinese or Jamie? Is it like you know, like Mahjong? Yes. I have a lot of friends who play mahjong together.

SPEAKER_00: 39:38

I've never played. Is it have you played? I haven't. It's huge over here though, especially. Oh, that's why I heard it's huge. Yeah, it's huge in the Bay Area, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:46

Those are my friends in the Bay who were talking about it. Yeah. My mother-in-law got invited to play mahjong with all the ladies in her building, and she was like, they're too fancy, because it was like Benioff's um mom and you know, that crew, and she's like, they're too fancy for me. I'm not gonna play. And I'm like, come on, I wanna, I wanna go, I wanna hear what these people are doing. Because it's a it's a time to gossip and like talking about it. Yeah, yeah, because you talk a lot, right?

SPEAKER_03: 40:10

It's not just you're actually so I I think that like people are really, really, really looking for those kinds of opportunities now. So all right. Well, next time we see each other, we're gonna go play mahjong together.

SPEAKER_00: 40:20

Yeah, that sounds good. I've been trying to figure out how to do like a dinner party sort of thing, but where parents are invited too, because there's a lot of like mom groups, but the kids don't go, right? Because you want to break. But I don't want that. I want my kid there. I want to have like Yeah, yeah. And like how do you do that? Because I was thinking, um, and I think I've talked with you, Zara, about this, where there's this thing called the dinner party, and it's for young people who have lost parents when they were young. Um, and it's for grief, right? And but if there's a way where you could do that by kind of age range of parents or kids or whatever it is and get together in your communities, I just don't know how to do it. I can organize small, but I am like, how do we make it?

SPEAKER_03: 40:56

I feel like it feels like it's a barbecue. Like I just think it's barbecue of what's really easy, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 41:02

Yeah. That it's interesting. I wanted to talk to Emily, Emily Oster about this yesterday, but I know she got some flack for saying she doesn't send her kids to birthday parties on weekends. Got to ask. And there was a lot of pushback, and people were saying she wants to connect her own time or that. Yeah, and people were saying she doesn't participate in community. Have you been to a kid's birthday party? Because it's not a community event. No, not in this country. It's if you're a parent, you're either asked to drop your kid off and leave, or you're like awkwardly standing against the wall. Whereas, like when my Indian friends have birthday parties for their kids, it's family events. Parents are welcome, parents are guests, parents are eating and talking and having fun, and it's not just this like, you know, send your kid into another room and then just make yourself scarce.

SPEAKER_03: 41:50

But that's why it's like I think people are like, we like, we like, yeah, I I think you you all are the same, but like we, our kids are always with us. Like we're we always are like a crow. Yeah, I mean we come as a we come as like a as a as a package. Um Wolf package with our burnadil too, you know. So it's like everyone's loud and all of that stuff. But yeah, I think that I think that that's that's probably why people feel more isolated because I think we make people feel like they have to choose. I mean, there are times where I'm eating dinner with my kids outside in Chelsea at a restaurant that is on the sidewalk, and like my kids will laugh too loud or like shout or whatever, and someone will shush me or make me feel like I have to go home. And I I'm like, are you kidding me? Wait, what? Oh yeah, like the the uh people, yeah. I mean, it's like we need to, I I don't think every city in the in in the country is like family friendly. No, yeah, at all that's true.

SPEAKER_01: 42:46

I don't know if I would live in Pittsburgh if my family weren't here, but my favorite thing about living here is that it's extremely family friendly. And we take our kids everywhere, and I I truly can't think of a time that I felt unwelcome with them.

SPEAKER_03: 42:58

And New York is not, it it's it's not family friendly. And I think people generally, I mean I think you go, I feel like I experienced this so much more when my kids were little, maybe because I was just a mom for the first time. But you know, when the baby's crying and you're shush. I mean, even the other day I was interviewing Anna Malika for her book, and we were in this like, you know, it was hottest day in New York City. It was like 90 degrees, we're in the bookstore, there's like 40 people. This mom's in the back with her baby, the baby starts crying, and she's just like, I'm like, where are you going? You know what I mean? She's like, no, I just I'm like, no, like I baby's crying is like nothing. It's like a lullaby, right? It's like, but the sense of like that she felt like she had to separate herself or that she was creating, you know, like making it hard for like rather than like being like, Junior, you know, like you're welcome to here, sit, listen, because that was the first thing I felt when I became a mom, is like I suddenly felt like isolated, like I couldn't participate in the other things that were happening in the community, yeah, because I had this crying baby.

SPEAKER_00: 43:56

Yeah. You you were talking about design earlier and how like our cities are designed, and like you look in Europe, as you mentioned, you know, there all there's bars surrounding parks in France, in Spain, and everyone just gathers in these blocks after work, after school. I feel like it comes down to even how we design like our neighborhoods here. The trees, have you heard about the trees? How they planted all male trees and no female trees? And so that's why everyone's allergies are super bad. Because they only wanted male trees because male trees don't produce fruit, but they didn't think about where all the pollination is gonna go. So that's why everyone's I did not know this. Yeah, and I feel like this is like such an example of like how men are designing everything and they're not like we need more diversity in general in the rooms that are designing everything that impact our lives.

SPEAKER_03: 44:44

And I it doesn't feel like we're there yet, but yeah, that's we're actually, I would say we're regressing, and I think that there needs to be a a much bigger push towards push it back to pushback.

SPEAKER_00: 44:55

Yeah. Thankfully, at least Costco is fighting all like the DEI stuff. Speaking of Costco runs, I actually don't like Costco. We had to we ended up in therapy one time because of Costco. I didn't want to have to go to Costco on the weekends. I thought that was ridiculous. And my husband loves it. I'm like, well, no. That's so funny. So what was it like to parent and run for Congress?

SPEAKER_03: 45:20

Well, I ran for Congress before I had children. Okay. So I did not have that experience, but I will say, like, being a parent and building Girls Who Code was um was really intense. I think the thing is, is I first I feel like I wanted to show that I could do it all. Like, I think they did do and I see women do this, like I'll you'll I'll have the baby, you know what I mean, giving the speech and like or you know, like or having Sean there when he's you know in the middle of the National Governors Association, just like I like wanted to prove that, like I think part of it I wanted to prove to the young women that you didn't have to choose, that you could do both, right? And I think that as we know, you you can't do both all the time, right? Like you have to kind of figure out and find the moments. Um, but I also think having a baby while I was building something, you know, this young woman said this to me. She was coming from a big a big 10 consulting firm and she's working with us this summer, and she said, I just wanted to ask you, she said, you know, I'm just so impressed at like how like the culture that you've built, and it feels like people work their asses off, but they have a life that they're never having to choose between whether it is a child or an elderly parent or yoga class, you know what I mean, and like crushing it. And like moms first is like you are genuinely like one of the most, you know, some of the most brilliant women that are really changing the world. And I'm just kind of blown away because coming from a you know, uh you could, you know, one of the big 10 consulting firms, like that's just not how workplaces are built. And it was like the biggest compliment, you know, like everyone has has any ever given me, right, in terms of anything that I've done. Because I think and I I think that like that's what I wanted to show, right? That like you can actually be a mom and do pick up and drop off and maybe like show up at a two o'clock music class and still fucking prep pass childcare in America.

SPEAKER_05: 47:19

Mm-hmm.

unknown: 47:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:21

And we just we just, you know, we immediately think the minute you become a mom that you're just a hireable, that you should be paid less, that you're not as ambitious, that you're just not gonna work as hard, that you're gonna be distracted. And it's actually like the opposite.

SPEAKER_06: 47:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 47:36

Yeah, you can get way more done if you want. It that saying, if you want something done quickly, ask for the busiest person you know. Yeah. It's like every mom is the busiest person. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. So we like to wrap up with two questions at the end of every interview, even though I'm sure we could talk for hours. And we will next time we play mahjong. So if you had a best friend coming to you, never had kids before, what is the advice that you would give her?

SPEAKER_03: 48:02

I would say being a mom is like the best job I've ever had in my life. And um give yourself grace.

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

Yeah, and then we always talk about, you know, the broken system mothers are navigating, but what is a part of motherhood that has brought you unexpected joy?

SPEAKER_03: 48:22

I feel like I, when my kids do something for the first time or just say it, I feel like I get to re re in the moment of that experience. You know, like when your kid sees an animal for the first time, they're like, ah, right? Or like play like hears a song or does something. It's like you're you're being able to have like that kind of like innocence, which I think um is beautiful and presence.

SPEAKER_00: 48:51

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and you get to be in awe again, to be like, oh yeah, that's really cool. Like giraffes are pretty cool. Yeah, like exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_02: 49:04

Thank you. I appreciate talking to the both of you.

SPEAKER_03: 49:07

So um see amazing summer and uh stay rested. See you soon. Take care. Bye. Bye.