The Truth About: Your Baby's Milestones with Pediatric PT Allison Mell

Ever watched a baby rock on all fours and wondered whether to cheer or worry? We sit down with pediatric physical therapist Dr. Allison Mell—founder of Tots on Target and mom of four, including twins—to unpack the first 18 months with rare clarity. Allison explains what those “windows” for rolling, sitting, crawling, and walking really tell us, how to use corrected age for preemies, and where “wait and see” becomes a roadblock. She shares a practical test most parents can spot at home: steady progress and quality of movement. If your baby is trending forward with planks, rocking, and symmetrical effort, patience is a plan. If they’re stuck, favoring one side, or plateaued for weeks, a few targeted exercises can change everything.

Crawling takes center stage—but not as a box to check. Allison reveals why it’s the last big dose of upper-body weight-bearing before school, how it feeds shoulder and core strength for writing and self-dressing, and why it supercharges sensory systems (proprioception and vestibular), bilateral coordination, and crossing midline. Those invisible wins show up later in reading fluency, sports, biking, and monkey bars. We also get real about twins and comparisons, intrauterine tightness, reflux and oral ties, and the small stretches and routines that can turn a “content sitter” into an eager explorer. For older kids who skipped crawling, she offers playful strength builders to boost endurance without shame.

Beyond milestones, Allison opens up about survival with newborn twins, the decision to hire night help, and the honest work of protecting a marriage when everyone is exhausted. We dive into risky play within boundaries, coaching language that builds problem-solving (“Sometimes it helps if…”), and why giving kids space to try is a shortcut to self-trust. The theme that runs through it all: you know your child best. If a dismissive “it’s normal” doesn’t sit right, keep asking. You’re not chasing perfection—you’re laying a foundation for a body and brain that feel at home in motion.

If this conversation gave you clarity or courage, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s in the milestone maze, and leave a quick review—what’s one tip you’re trying this week?

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Alison Mel and Tots on Target
• 2:33 Why Parents Seek Early Development Support
• 5:45 Siblings, Twins, and Comparison Traps
• 11:40 Surviving Twin Newborn Life and Night Help
• 17:48 Flexible Work, Starting Tots on Target
• 22:26 Milestones, Preemies, and Corrected Age
• 28:08 “Wait and See” vs Proactive Support
• 34:04 Crawling’s Benefits: Strength, Sensory, Skills
• 41:58 Personality, Motivation, and Movement
• 47:46 Risky Play, Problem Solving, and Confidence
• 55:38 The Joys of Big Kids and Advocacy

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:28

Today we're speaking with a pediatric physical therapist who founded Tots on Target. She creates educational content for social media at Tots on Target and runs an online membership for parents. She has four children, including a set of twins, is married, 40 years old, and lives in New Jersey. Alison Mel, welcome to Do You Want the Truth.

SPEAKER_03: 0:48

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be chatting with you guys today. We are so excited too.

SPEAKER_01: 0:55

Were you doing this job before you had kids, or did it come about after?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00

No, it happened totally after. I had had all of my kids already when I started Tots on Target. I started in pediatric physical therapy before I had kids. Um I was actually pregnant with my twins at my first job, took a little bit of time off, and when back it was in the school setting for a while. And then Tots on Target came about after working with the kids in the school setting, raising my own kids. And I think I've been doing it now since 2018. And my last child was born in 2016. So they were definitely all born and all growing by the time I really started this, but I really felt like parents wanted more information, more help, more support, more content to really help guide them in all the challenges that come about when you're raising little kids.

SPEAKER_01: 1:49

And there are a lot of challenges, aren't there? We're just talking offline about quite the morning. Um summer mornings are interesting. So what is, for those of us who haven't ever gone to somebody like you or needed that, what what sort of support do you offer to kids? What kinds of kids typically do you see?

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

Sure. Well, in the recent years, and specifically Tots on Target Now really focuses on baby development. A lot of babies who struggle with motor milestones, including, you know, they can't roll or they're only rolling to the right, they can't roll to the left, they can't crawl, they're struggling to walk. And so a lot of parents are very focused on their baby's early development. In that first year, up to 18 months, even you're looking, is my baby doing this? Is my baby doing that? If your baby's in daycare, you're looking at all the other babies in the class and wondering what your baby's doing in relation to them. And so that's really where I come in. And a lot of times babies are doing things on their own. You don't have to step in and help in any way. Sometimes it's nice to have the information, what to expect. But where I come in with support is really helping when babies are struggling with those milestones. So that's really what Tots on Target focuses on now. I have worked with everywhere from birth, you know, newborns, through kids who are about age 10, 11. So I've really experienced the whole thing and now really focus on that early developmental stage.

SPEAKER_02: 3:09

Is there any truth to the adage that kids who have older siblings tend to move a little bit faster and hit those physical milestones faster?

SPEAKER_03: 3:17

Such a great question because I say that because it goes in both ways. There are some parents who look at their youngest and say, Yes, my that youngest child, they are doing everything their older siblings, they want to catch up, right? And they're going so fast. And then you'll have the other side where babies who are struggling to move, and then the excuse becomes, oh, they have older siblings, so they're just so entertained and they just watch their older siblings and now they have no need to move. So it's a very interesting thing to hear from both sides of, you know, is there that extra motivation to move, or is it that motivation to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show? Um, and and what I've seen is it again, it can really be either one, but we definitely want to see babies motivated to move, keeping up. And whether that's keeping up at the pace of those big siblings or at their own rate and just, you know, keep on progressing forward, either one is totally fine as long as they are continuously moving forward.

SPEAKER_01: 4:16

I've actually heard that they say most professional athletes, like there's a high, high likelihood that if the four it will be the fourth sibling, like the fourth child tends to be a professional athlete if you're gonna have any, which I find interesting. I don't know, I I don't know why I was looking that up, but we have a probably because one of my son's friends from before is the third, and he is the most athletically inclined child I have ever seen because his older siblings, and same with my husband, he was a third, and he's so yeah, so they're I think it's depends on the older kids, the older siblings, if they're forcing them to move, because if it's like let's go or if they kind of caretake them.

SPEAKER_03: 4:53

Like no excuses, keep up or get left behind, right? And so it really depends. I'm sure, and again, this is not from necessarily a professional standpoint, but I'm sure it it depends on that whole family dynamic, right? If you have three older sisters and you're the first boy and they're like sitting there doing your hair, right? Is that does that like, but maybe they still will be that, you know, athlete of the family? It really, I'm sure depends on that family dynamic. I think I've also heard like middle children are the most likely to be a CEO. I feel like I read that somewhere. There's no I could see that. That's kids like fight for their place in the family. So maybe that middle child is gonna be somebody, you know, high up in the rankings somewhere. But it's it's definitely possible. I've never seen any literature on that, but I'd be so curious to see if that really is a thing of youngest children or fourth children being that athlete of the family. That is not the case in my household. So maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 5:47

Well, you both have twins, right? Sets of twins. So I imagine that it was really easy for both of you and still is to compare one to the other. Is that does that happen like with development, especially when they're younger, probably less so now? But is that something both of you went through?

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

Yeah, Zara, how old are your twins now? They are six. They're six. Okay. Mine are 14. So they are like, I've I I feel like I've I've made it. I mean, we're still going through the hard challenges and like forget about driving in a few years. Like that will be the stress of next stress of my life. But I would say in early development, and I and I work with a lot of twin families because that's very common now. And and people have this thing of like, don't compare twins or don't compare babies. It's a big thing of don't compare babies. But Zara, as you know, like when we have a comparison in our own household, it's hard not to look at another, another child who's the same exact age and what they're doing. And that can go everything from that motor development. And now we even deal with grades in in my, you know, my uh teenage years of I got this grade on this test and I got this grade on the same test, you know. So there's always that natural comparison, whether we as parents are doing it or the children are doing it themselves. Um, I have boy, boy, girl twins. Sarah, what do you have? Also, so I'm sure it differs with girl girl or boy boy. It's very interesting. In my house, my twins did all their motor development almost within a week of each other, which I feel like is very unusual. And I had no involvement in that. It wasn't like I did anything specific to facilitate that. But I remember they took their first steps absolutely within a week of each other. And I think everything else up until then also was very, very close. So I didn't have that worry necessarily of looking at one and the other one was lagging behind. But I do see that a lot with the babies in the families that I work with, where when I have twin families, one is lagging behind than the other. And there are, you know, it's difficult because you have that natural comparison, but it's also helpful to sometimes have a comparison of like, oh no, I I again, as I said before, sometimes there are those like excuses, not in a in a negative way, but you're, oh, maybe my baby is so entertained, or maybe my baby doesn't want to. But when you see in your own home how the same environment is set up, the same parenting, and you see one is doing all these things, you realize, oh, it's not because of the environment and it's not because of the toys that they have. It's some something may be going on that that second baby is lagging behind, um, needs a little bit of help and support, and that's okay because every baby is is different.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:24

Yeah, I think it's interesting because I don't really think I was comparing my twins that much, but I feel like the outside world, everybody who sees them really tends to compare them. I, my kids are very different in terms of motivation and always have been. I have one who's extremely physical and extremely athletic, who was like every single step he was trying so hard with the crawling and the cruising and the walking. And then I have another kid who is like me, like very unathletic and didn't do anything, and then just one day popped up and walked. And they are still like that as people, even with reading, things like that. It's just the way they're motivated is so different.

SPEAKER_03: 9:06

Yeah, their personalities are there from birth. You see personality right from the get-go, and it's so interesting to see that in all your kids, and especially when you're seeing that side-by-side comparison. I put that in the air quotes of, you know, we don't want to compare, but again, you have a natural comparison right next to each other. And you're the same parent because you started parenting them at the exact same time and they had those same experiences. So you can really see how sometimes nature really is the reason that they are who they are.

SPEAKER_01: 9:36

Yeah. I ne I never believed in nature being so strong until I had my son. And now I'm like, oh yeah. I mean, obviously there are things that happen, trauma, all of those things can really impact a person's nature. But like if you just have like the basics and you know, it it's so interesting to see just how strong it is. And so you both actually, you both, your firstborns were both twins. Yeah. Alison, and you have a pr I would say a big family. I'm in California, that is a big family. Anything more than two is a big family where I am. Did you always know you wanted to have a big family?

SPEAKER_03: 10:07

Yeah. I when when my husband and I were dating, he wanted two kids and I wanted four kids, and so we had four kids. Um and so we had four kids. I I I I said it from the get-go, like I said it up front. I was very clear. I also came from four, so I have three siblings myself. I'm the oldest of four. And um, and so I always knew that I wanted four. But what was funny was when I had my twins. I we were living in New York City in Manhattan at the time, and I was walking constantly up and down, up and down the streets of of New York City, and I didn't have a lot of friends who had kids. So, you know, random people would like start talking to me because they had twins. Like it's always a conversation starter, like, oh, you have twins. You have a boy and a girl, so you're done. And in my head, I'm like, oh no, I'm not. No, I'm not. Um, but it was it was right away this like, you have a boy and a girl, so you must be done. And um, and I and I knew that I wanted four kids. We had our third almost exactly two years later. So once we had the third, I I blocked out a few years of my life from that time period because I was we were now in zone defense with three, two, and under. It was very overwhelming. People used to think I had triplets because they all actually were around the same height at some point. So people thought I had triplets. And then three years later, I had my fourth. So I had four kids within five and a half years, but I cheated because I had twins, or I didn't cheat because it was harder. Like it goes both ways. Right. It was like harder, but then I, you know, and so they were all born pretty close together. So that was a challenging time to have so many little kids running around. And they were not like the ones who stood by the stroller nicely and walked with me. Like they ran in every direction. I could not go anywhere with them without them like being leashed, which I didn't even have leashes for everybody. So they just ran and I was very overwhelmed all the time.

SPEAKER_02: 11:55

Yeah, I always say that twins are just a special kind of chaos because they know each other so well that they just kind of know how to act as a team and sort of work against you a little bit. Totally. I was out with a friend who has twins too, and her boys like ran in opposite directions, and I was like, Yep, I know that move. Yeah, I know that very well.

SPEAKER_03: 12:15

Yeah, I remember going to the mall with them one time because like I needed to get out of the house. And they were all going under the clothing racks and they were playing hide and seek, like in the clothing racks, and I had a stroller with my fourth, and I was like, I we have to go home. We have to go home. I can't do this. This is too much. I can't find them. I'm screaming their names, and everyone's looking at me like I'm a little bit crazy because I can't keep control. I was like, this is this is why we can't leave the house.

SPEAKER_01: 12:40

I mean, it's hard to leave the house with one, let's be honest. So, like four twins, what whatever it is. So was yeah, I don't even know how. I mean, I'm just thinking about to when I was two years postpartum, and then you added another to that, and then three years, and then you added another. How was your relationship during the time when the kids were really little?

SPEAKER_03: 12:59

It it that's a really good question. And when we when we had our kids, it when we had the twins, certainly, my husband had to be very hands-on right away because like there was always somebody that needed to be fed, right? Like, you know, I feel like I'm serious that are like you also had this where like they're both up in the middle of the night at this, like I would try to feed one while he went to sleep. He would do the 11 o'clock feeding and then try to put them both to sleep so that I can get a few hours. Then I would do the middle of the night feeding because like he actually still had a job because we needed to eat, you know. So he like had to like sleep so that he can be awake at work. And then I would, I would wake up with both kids at two o'clock in the morning. I would feed one, I would always feed my son first, put him down and start feeding my second one. And my son would always start waking up and crying because he was like very gassy and and always like cried after feedings. And so then my husband was up again with him and like neither of us were sleeping. We were so exhausted. So my husband at some point was like, We we need help. And I was so determined that I could do this alone. And I think I went into parenting, like, I know what I'm doing, and I could do this alone, and I don't need help. And I have no idea why I had that complex. Like looking back, I'm like, what, why? And so he was like, We we really need night help. Um, and so I agreed to like three nights a week of help. I wouldn't even do it every night. I'm like, no, no, like I could do this, I could do this. And so we did get like three nights a week of help, and it really was a game changer. Like, I think he had to fight me a little bit on on allowing help, where he was like, I need, I need sleep. We both need sleep. Like, you need sleep too. Like, we both need sleep, you need the help. And then when we had our third, he really said to me, He's like, You can't come home from the hospital until you hire night help. And like in a gentle way, but like my twins were waking up at 5 a.m. We now had a newborn. He was so traumatized from this like middle of the night experience where he wasn't sleeping at all either. He's like, we can't do this. So I agreed to four nights a week of help because I still had this like, I'm gonna do this and I need to be the one that does everything. And so I think that it's I'm sure that this is for a lot of people. It's very challenging. I'm sure with one, again, I never did, I never started with one. So I can't speak about that experience of just becoming a parent as one. I can really only say it as a we had to team up all the time because there were multiples. You know what I mean? Like and so I'm sure that it is equally as hard with one, but I speak from my experience of this, you know, two babies and then this zone defense that I think it it was very challenging for us to always have to be on. Yeah. Somebody all like we always have to be on. There, there was always like if we went out with friends, you're not taking turns holding a baby. You're both holding a baby. And our taking turns was, okay, I'll take the harder baby now. You take the one that's not crying. Like it was, it was very hard to always have to be on all the time. And so, you know, that had to be worked out certainly in the beginning of of our marriage because I mean, again, nobody's used to that. Nobody's used to like caring for this other, you know, new life that you bring in. And then it's, you know, well, we both are on all the time. How do we manage that? Because are either of us able to have a break? Do we both have a hard time? Like, does one of us have a really hard time and then get a break? Do we both never get a break? Like, what, what, how do we work that out? And it wasn't so easy to do, but like we we did it over time. It just took a long time to really figure it out.

SPEAKER_02: 16:34

Yeah, we also had a night nurse for, I think, four nights a week in the beginning. And I had the same thing. I felt so much resistance to accepting help. But even before our kids were born, my husband was working with a few of these, like, there were a few like very wealthy families that he kind of worked in proximity to, and they were all like, your marriage will not survive without a night nurse if you have twins. So he's like, I think we need to do this and convinced me. And I remember at the time, because I was breastfeeding, I was like, this isn't really worth the money or, you know, just the awkwardness of having somebody in your house. But now in hindsight, I'm like, oh, she was also like folding laundry and unloading our dishwasher. So actually, it was a lot more helpful than I realized at the time. I think I was just in my head resistant to the idea, like you said.

SPEAKER_03: 17:23

Yeah. We we go into this sometimes feeling like we should be able to do it all. And then we feel let down when we can't.

SPEAKER_01: 17:32

Yeah. And nobody can do it all the time or at once. And I and you said something that having one kid is just as hard as having twins. That is not true. Let's I'm I'm gonna put on the record like there is one child is much easier than two children, especially twins. So I mean I I don't know how you all did it. So it sounds like you probably had a challenging time and kind of just worked through it. But it this is something Zara has said too, where and you kind of just alluded to it, where you like teamed up together because you both you kind of had to be a team. And I wonder if that also like brought you all together even through all the challenges, because it can be, I feel like having a kid kind of sets you in competition with your partner for resources and time and sleep and alone time and all of that. And you, you all just nobody had it.

SPEAKER_03: 18:23

Nobody had it. And I think there's also this challenge of like when my husband would come home from work and he he traveled a lot when the kids were younger and he was working long hours. And when he would come home, I would be like ready to run. I'd be like, I need to run my treadmill. I need to go out. Like, I just need like to get my own energy out without, you know, a stroller attached to me or something, you know? And he would come home and be like, Well, I just had this hard day. Like, I want to talk to you and I wanna, you know, connect as a family and I wanna bond together, you know? And and that was also a little bit of like that emotional, like, how do we give to each other emotionally in that way that's really this this new relationship that you have to almost recreate between you of like how do you emotionally support each other while giving yourself what you need and really thinking of somebody else that who's not your children, who you're giving all your energy to, you know, already.

SPEAKER_01: 19:23

Yeah. Well, and then you decided once you had the fourth, two years into that, to start your own business. Were you were you working during this time when your other three were born? Or did you take time off?

SPEAKER_03: 19:36

So when I when I had my twins, um, we were gonna be moving from New York City to New Jersey. So I I did have about a year off just because I had to get my license in New Jersey. We were moving, like I, you know, it took me a little bit of time. So I was home with them full time for close to a year. And then I went back very part-time. As a physical therapist who works with kids, I'm very flexible. And so I went back only part-time. I started two days a week and then went to three days a week at some point. Um, but I was still very, very flexible, which I'm super grateful for. So working in a school, if I said I was working Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, but one of my kids was sick on Tuesday and I needed to switch to Wednesday, like I could just do that on my own because the kids are always in school. So I'm not canceling appointments and then rescheduling. It's just on my own schedule, which was super beneficial as a mom of young kids. And so I was very lucky that I had a babysitter at home watching my kids on those days. And it also allowed me to, on those days, she stayed a little bit longer so that I can go to the supermarket without bringing three then four kids. You know, how do you fit any groceries in the cart when you have all these kids that run away from you? So that really allowed me to, again, this was so many years ago that like Instacart wasn't really a thing. Um, and so, which sounds so dated, like I sound so old, but it's true, right? Like Instacart wasn't really a thing. You had to simply go to the store. Um, and so that I I did work very part-time. And even then, there got to a point where none of my kids were ever going every day to school because they were always sick all the time. And and I was so overwhelmed, even working part-time. And I had started tots on target. And at some point I said, I can't do everything anymore. Like I can't. And I ended up leaving the school job. I wanted to build up Tots on Target and then have the flexibility even more to be home with my kids, which I know not everybody can do, but I was I was very lucky to have at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 21:28

I mean, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where it is so hard. I mean, even this morning as an example, I'm not working right now, but I'm doing things, a bunch of things part-time. And it's like when the kid had, and I only have one kid, but there's like, you know, the huge meltdown. And it's like, what do you do? And you're just sitting there being like, I don't know how to handle this, and then go about your day. And if you have to be in an office, I just feel really feel for the parents who do because I feel like we are lucky that we can be so flexible because it's hard. And the sick, the illnesses does it continue through elementary school?

SPEAKER_03: 22:02

It got so much better. It was really that like preschool, kindergarten, maybe like even early grade school. And again, I block out some of my memories here, so I don't really remember the exact years, but um, but there there was definitely a stage where, again, my kids are so close in age. So I was at the pediatrician office like at least once a week with at least one child all the time. And then um, and then it certainly got better. Like now my kids who are older, you know, they're um, you know, older grades, my youngest is just finished third grade, and we don't have nearly the sicknesses that we had. Or what's also much easier is they can tell you what is going on, which makes a world of difference. When you are a parent of babies, toddlers, even the preschoolers who can tell you what's going on, they still come down in the morning. I will never forget there was one time my son was in kindergarten, my one of my my one of my twins. I had two boys and two girls. So my son was in kindergarten, he comes down in the morning saying his belly hurts. And I was like, you're fine, you're fine, go to school, right? Like you're fine and go to school. And of course, like an hour or two later, the school calls me, like, he is not himself. And he had strap. And I I was, and again, this is so many years later, and I'm still like thinking about certain of these moments where like, I can't believe I didn't, I didn't take him seriously. I didn't, I can't believe I didn't listen to that and I didn't go to the doctor because something was wrong. And I and I send them to school anyway, which I I don't send my kids to school sick, but every time your child says, you know, this spot here hurts on my cheek, you know, you can't run every time. Sometimes it is nothing. Sometimes, you know, they're a little gassy or they ate something or they're hungry even. Like you, you don't always know, even a preschool kindergartner doesn't always know what's going on inside their body to be able to tell you, this is what I'm feeling. You know, my belly really hurts. I can't go to school. And so now that my kids are older, they're more descriptive with what's going on. No, I and one of them will say, My throat hurts. I'll say, like getting a cold, like your voice is hoarse, or like it's really painful, you know, and they can they can describe it better now. So my anxiety over them and their illnesses and things, I don't feel like I have to rush to the doctor every time they say something because they can tell me more of what's going on. And, you know, we can work through that. I feel like when they're younger, you're like, I better go because what if it's something real? What if, you know, what if uh all those things? And so that that anxiety is all so much less because they can communicate so much better.

SPEAKER_01: 24:31

Yeah, communication is key, I feel like in all of it. But then, but then once, yeah, my son is to the point where he is learning language and so he can communicate things and he'll say he doesn't feel good, but it's he has anxiety, and that's hard too, because it's like, how do you manage the anxiety? And it it is very similar to a belly ache or you know, what whatever it is. Um with tots on target. So before you were at Tots on Target, were you you were physically in a school? So you were physically helping parents and kids, and then tots on target moved to a digital space. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03: 25:02

Yes, correct. So so I was working in a school setting as a physical therapist for another company. I was a contract worker in a school. Um, I worked with children. It was a preschool kindergarten. Um so it started at age three um and then went through, you know, kindergarten five, six. Um, and I really loved it. I really loved working with those children. Um, I liked, I actually really liked the school environment. It felt like a very collaborative environment for me. Um, you know, working with the teachers, um, sometimes the parents, depending on, you know, how in involved they were, not in a way of parents being involved, but I feel like sometimes they have more communication with the teachers than they do with therapists in the school setting. So it they really had to like go the extra mile to contact me because the school didn't like I didn't have an email address as part of the school. Um, but when we had team meetings, the parents would be there and I loved collaborating with them as well. So I really, really liked that. And then again, just life and I was looking for something new. And what also really added on to that was I think that when I was seeing a lot of kids who came in with certain challenges in school, you know, they couldn't sit up straight in circle time, they struggled going up and down the stairs, they couldn't keep up in gym, they couldn't do monkey bars, all these other things. And then they struggle with, you know, writing and reading. And then you look at their early history and you say, well, you know, what what happened before then? Right? What were the signs leading up to that that they come into school with certain, you know, challenges that they need help with now? And a lot of it, when you go back to their early development, they did struggle with those baby milestones. They either struggled with rolling, they never crawled, the quality of their movements were either rigid or very slow to come about. Um, and so that's really where Tots on Target was meant to help these parents in these early stages help babies set up for success for later on. If we can give babies a strong foundation in these early milestones, then they can build on top of them to better better be prepared for preschool, kindergarten, and grade school later on.

SPEAKER_01: 27:05

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03: 27:05

Were your twins premies? They were. They were they were six weeks early. They were in the NICU for two weeks as well. Um, and so their milestones, we always have to look at gestational age versus chronological age. Um, were you were your twins early, Zara? They were four weeks early. They were four weeks early. So um, and and I remember my OB said to me, get to 34 weeks. That's our goal. Um, she was like, at 32 weeks, she's like, okay, you need to stop working. You're a physical therapist. I was in a sensory gym at the time, like working very, very full time. And she was like, you need to stop like tomorrow. Like this is it. And then um, and then I had them at 34 weeks. So I made it to our goal, but they were they were premies, they were in the NICU for two weeks, really for feeding issues. They didn't have any other medical complications, thankfully. And then they really met their milestones at the end of the range according to their gestational age. And so when we look at um at developmental milestones, there's always a range of normal. So rolling, I would say is a four to six month milestone. Any time between four and six months is when we expect babies to roll. We expect babies to sit between six and eight months, crawl seven to ten months, and then walk between 10 and 15 months. That's a really nice, big, wide range. And some will even say up to 18 months is considered typical. And so when we're looking at those ranges, any time in that, in that time frame is considered typical. But with our premi babies, we always want to consider what gestational age they are, not the chronological age. So for my twins, if they started rolling at seven months, seven and a half months, that would still be considered within the typical range, because gestationally, then they were, you know, closer to six months. And so on and so forth. And so they actually met most of their milestones at the end of the range according to their gestational age.

SPEAKER_02: 28:47

That's how mine were too. They were kind of at the end of the range for everything. And I think a lot of people would say to me, like, oh, you don't have to worry about milestones at all. They don't matter.

SPEAKER_03: 28:58

And I'm like, they they do, but Yeah, that's that's the new thing. And parents really struggle with this a lot because for a few reasons. One is that you do expect in the same way that when you're pregnant, you're looking at all the books, you know, what to expect when you're expecting, and you're like, How big is my baby here? And how what do I expect here? And are their lungs developed at this stage, right? You're like tracking all that progress. The same really happens after a baby's born. You're like, okay, when are they supposed to smile at me? And when are they supposed to wave? And when are they supposed to crawl? And it goes back to that comparison thing of you then see your niece or nephew, or you see the other babies in daycare, or your neighbor's baby moving along. And you're like, well, I want my baby to move too. And it's really it's the question of is it just because we we want our babies to move, or is it actually really important? And that's where really I try to educate parents is these milestones are not just like cute and fun and great, you know, they're actually really part of setting this very, very strong foundation for all these later skills. And unfortunately, parents, when they when they often go to well checkups, there has been a more recent message of like, wait and see, wait and see. A lot of dismissiveness on if parents are concerned that their baby isn't rolling or their baby isn't crawling. Not all babies crawl, you know, don't worry, eventually they'll walk, don't worry about it. And parents are are left feeling um a little helpless and and really like, well, what am I waiting to see? Like nothing's happening, you know, nothing. Changing. My baby is behind and they're and they're left feeling a little bit frustrated. And so the tips that I share and the and the membership that I offer really helps fill that gap for parents who feel like there's not, there's something going on, but nobody's really guiding them to find the help that they need.

SPEAKER_01: 30:44

We have this joke where our friends, we all kind of go to the same, not practitioner, but we're all in the same network for, and they always tell us everything. It's normal, it's normal, it's normal. And so we're always like, oh, how did that doctor appointment go? Where like their eyes leading, oh, they said it's normal, you know, like all of these things. And there is my OB is great though. She's always like, Yeah, we always gaslight people into telling you that these things are fine and they're not, but we just don't have any evidence. We don't know what it is. And um, is it all your work? Does it also help catch things maybe neurologically or that are going on in the brain that maybe should be caught early? Because I could imagine there's some co comorbidities between physical and mental or I don't think mental is the right word, but you know, like in the brain development, there we go.

SPEAKER_03: 31:31

It's an interesting question because it's important for parents to know that if their baby is falling behind in their development, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a neurological condition or that there is a genetic condition, something that's that's really, really, really going on. Sometimes there is. So it sometimes I think parents are nervous to go for that help because, oh gosh, it means that there's something really, really wrong. And what I often find in many cases is there's not necessarily something globally going on. Sometimes something as simple as an oral tie. They had a tongue tie, a lip tie, is now there, there's tension now throughout the body that's causing baby to have a difficult time rolling or getting in and out of sitting. Okay. And so their baby is stuck, they don't move at all. And once we stretch them a little bit, all of a sudden they're moving. So there's sometimes something as simple as a history of an oral tie, or maybe baby had a reflux. And that is actually causing a lot of tension and baby is now struggling with movement. And yes, of course, there are other times where I say sometimes we're we're intervening, we're helping, we're strengthening baby, we're doing some stretches, and baby's not progressing at the rate that we'd like to see. And then we recommend to go for further testing to maybe see if there's something else going on. And so either way, and I and I've had parents inside my membership say, like, oh, well, you know, if I go to neurologist, what happens if my baby does have cerebral palsy or does have um something else, you know, going on that we don't know about? And I say, either way, we are going to work on functional skills. Whether your baby has an underlying condition or whether it was just some reflux that is causing this delay, I work on function. I want your baby to be able to eventually function in the best way possible. And sometimes that's, you know, fully functional and sometimes it's somewhat adaptive. But either way, again, when we see a slower rate of progress or we're not seeing certain things that we want to see with the interventions that we're we're applying, then we would recommend going for further testing if that hasn't been done already. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 33:37

Yeah, it's hard being a parent who has kind of like health anxiety. Oh, you know, like, or as a first-time parent, I feel like so many of us are like, is this normal? Is this okay? And you kind of talk yourself out of it or into it that something is wrong. Like I remember every time my son wouldn't hit a milestone. I'd be, I'd talk to my husband and I'd be like, Oh, he's not doing this. We'd call the doctor, and literally the next day he would hit it. And it was just one of those things where it's like, yeah. How do you advise people to kind of thread that needle? Because there is such a fine point to be like everything is an issue versus maybe the baby is just a little bit slower to do things.

SPEAKER_03: 34:14

And this is where the wait and see question comes in, right? Because sometimes it is okay to wait and see, and sometimes you want to be more proactive, right? So which which one is it in your case? And so what is most important is again, we're gonna always look at that typical time frame. So if your baby is six months old and not crawling, that's total like we're not even having a discussion about it. Even if they're seven months, which crawling is a seven to 10 month milestone, if they're on the early end of that range, seven, eight months, and they're not crawling yet, I say give them time, give them plenty of floor time, give the opportunity for them to crawl to build up their muscles and you know, wait and see if they can do it on their own. However, what if they're 10 months and not crawling yet? So what what do we do in that case, right? And that's when we want to look at at two things: the the consistency of their progress that they're making and the quality of movement. So it are they continuously making progress? So again, in the case of crawling, are they um planking, right? Are they pushing up through straight arms? Are they getting themselves into a plank or a downward dog? Are they rocking on all fours? Are they doing all these things that are kind of showing us that they're making some headway towards this skill? Great. Then that's probably the call that you're gonna give to the pediatrician. And within a few days, they're probably going to figure out how to take off. Because again, it takes a lot of coordination to figure out, you know, how to move their arms and legs and all that kind of stuff. So if they're showing continuous progress towards that skill, that's a great sign. If they're not, if they're like, yeah, my baby hasn't been progressing for a month now, we've seen no change in a month, they're not pushing up through straight arms. They're they're stuck in army crawling, they can't push their arms up, they they aren't getting onto all fours to rock. Well, if they're 10 months and they haven't gotten close, well, then maybe we need to help them out, you know, give them a few targeted exercises that are going to make all the difference. Give them a little more strengthening that they're gonna get there. And then there's also the quality of movement. So that's when really I want parents to look and say, are they using both sides of their body equally? Are they dragging one leg and only using the other leg to push off? Or they sometimes are they're tucking one arm, you know, under their body to help them to propel and the other arm is like straight out and doing something else. We want both sides of the body to be working evenly and fluidly. And so, and because if they're not, um the both sides of the body are gonna strengthen differently. And that's where we really want for later skills that are, you know, climbing ladders, stair climbing, jumping, sports, we want both sides of the body to strengthen equally. And so if if those kind of things are are not are not adding up, right? If they're not continuously making progress towards a skill and the quality and or the quality of the movement isn't on track, then we would want to seek more help. But if the quality looks good, baby's continuing to make progress, even if they haven't hit it exactly by 10 months, all right. You know, again, we're talking about such a minute specific age, you know, just because they turned 10 months at this moment doesn't mean we have to start worrying. It's really that we're looking at the whole picture, but those time frames give us a goal to kind of pay attention to.

SPEAKER_01: 37:20

Yeah. Did all of your kids, Allison and Zara, did all of them crawl? Because mine did not.

SPEAKER_02: 37:26

One of mine didn't. Yeah, one of yours didn't. What did what did they do instead? Like, well, well, my kids were both very small and they're still like really slender, but we always used to say that one of my kids would just kind of move like a really like roly-poly little baby. Because it was just a lot of like very slow, like labored rolling. Yeah, one day it was just like, oh, I'm ready to walk. Yeah. Which I know is not ideal. Is there anything that you think I need to look out for at this point, just based on that?

SPEAKER_03: 38:01

And there are parents that will message me like, my six-year-old never, you know, never crawled, what do I do now? And so you only need to, at the at that later stage, you're only going to do something if there's something that needs to be done, right? So some of the and and I'll and I'll start with what are the benefits of crawling? Um, just what what does it help with, right? And then if if they're not, you know, uh attaining certain skills later on, then we can we can also work on those. Um, but crawling helps with a lot of strength. And so crawling is really the last time that they are weight bearing on their upper body. And a lot of babies who struggle actually don't have the strength in their shoulders and their arms to push up to crawl. That's where we get those persistent army crawlers. And sometimes those children, if they never had the strength to crawl, and that was now their last time to weight bear on their upper body, they struggle with a proper pencil grasp. They fatigue with writing and coloring and cutting. They struggle sometimes with those fine motor skills of self-dressing, so buttoning, um, some of the opening lunch containers. So those are some of the things that you might see in the school setting. But the fine motor, again, swinging on monkey bars, anything with that upper body that really, you know, crawling because that's the last stage of weight bearing really sets up for the foundation for that, those fine motor skills later on, and some of those gross motor skills that require upper body strength. And so if your child is struggling with fine motor skills, you know, those writing and cutting and coloring or self-dressing, you're gonna work on hand strength, shoulder strength, and core strength activities to support that in those older ages. You can also add crawling in, go crawl through a tunnel as part of an obstacle course and help build that strength up in some ways there. It also helps with a lot of sensory input. And so sensory is a big buzz word that, you know, sensory play, sensory play, what is sensory play? And a lot of people think sensory play is playing with sand and um and slime and glute, which is all absolutely great sensory play, mud, dirt, all that great kind of stuff. But um, sensory is actually even more than just the tactile playing with textures. It's actually also, and there are two additional senses other than the five that were taught. It's there's the um the proprioception sense and the vestibular sense. I know my I was so proud that when my kids were learning about senses in sixth grade, um, they raised their hand. They're like, they're not five senses, they're actually eight. Interoception is the last one. They're like, they're eight. And the science teacher's like, no, there are five. And no, there are eight. Um and she came out and I was like, I was so proud of you. Um you didn't have to, you know, say anything to your teacher, but I'm proud that you knew that. Um that's okay. So the proprioceptive sense helps with body awareness. Where is my body in space? And so kids who struggle with that are the kids when they are they they have a lot of hard time with personal space. They are always falling on their friends in that circle time. They sometimes fall off their chairs when they're sitting at a desk. They're the ones that are bumping into the friends online when they're walking in the halls, or they have their hands all along the bulletin ports on the sides of the walls. Um, and the vestibular sense helps with balance. And so it actually contributes to some of those things, you know, sitting up properly in a circle time, um, you know, balancing, um, walking on an unsteady surface, a lot of coordination. And so if there are some children who struggled with with crawling and at that early stage, and they and again, sometimes it's they struggle with crawling because they struggle with body awareness. Like, you know, so we want to work on this in the early in the early stages so that we can better support them. They're building off this strong foundation rather than the holes that they have early on getting getting bigger and bigger, and now they struggle with it as they get older. And so, um, you know, for kids who struggle with that body awareness, personal space, those are things we like a lot of deep pressure activities, jumping, rolling down a hill, log rolling, a lot of uh texture crawling again as a big kid is also beneficial. And so some of those kids really do struggle to keep up because they just they kind of get clumsy, they fall a lot, etc.

SPEAKER_02: 41:52

You know what's so funny is my kid that never crawled is amazing at monkey bars. So fast. So strange how it works.

SPEAKER_03: 41:59

Yeah, so hard. Monkey bars are really hard. I couldn't do them now. And so, and so that's a really great point, right? Which is every reel that I share about the importance of crawling, inevitably I get something on there that says, I never crawled and I'm fine, or my daughter never crawled and I'm fine, right? And that, and this is where we have to recognize that there's sometimes a correlation versus causation. Um and a few things, right? And sometimes I make the the example of like, not everybody who doesn't use sunscreen will get skin cancer. Okay, we're going like off the deep end of my example, okay? But but not everybody who doesn't wear sunscreen and tans all day is going to get sun, you know, cancer uh skin cancer. However, we do say that protecting yourself from the sun gives you the best chance at protecting yourself from skin cancer, right? And so when you have a a baby who is nine, 10 months old, you don't know what is going to be in the future, right? You don't know how they're going to do in kindergarten or first grade. And so we have this window of opportunity to help these kids crawl as most babies crawl, right? So we're not doing something that, like, okay, we want your baby to do something harmful or dangerous or difficult or something that other babies don't do. We want babies to crawl because that's what typically b babies do. And so if we can, you know, use this time when it, when a parent is, you know, has this nine, 10 month old who's struggling to crawl. And again, sometimes they are just super, they they're super athletic, super gross motor intense. And so they actually walk earlier or they're just ready to go. That is some kind, but there are those who are like are stuck in sitting and they can't move, or they are stuck in army crawling because they don't have the strength. Like there are things that I will see very clearly. Why is your child? I could spot it very, very quickly of why this child is not crawling. And so I've seen it so many times where, right, these kids are struggling. They didn't crawl. We want to use this opportunity that we have to set them up for the best success we can because we don't know what's gonna be, right? Like what's best practice in in a way.

SPEAKER_02: 44:03

Does personality factor into this too? I mean, are some kids just stubborn, like we talked about, just more stubborn, more motivated? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:12

So I I like to say as the as my gold standard is all babies are motivated to move. All babies are motivated to move. Now, are you gonna have some that are literally racing all over the place and can't stop? Yes. Are you gonna have the ones that crawl over to their toy and then play nicely in the corner with their Mr. Potato Head or their blocks? Absolutely, right? So there's definitely personality differences of like that baby that is climbing all over everything and you're like, oh my gosh, this baby needs padded walls and a padded floor because like, oh my gosh. And then that one that's more cautious and takes a little bit longer. However, all babies should want to move and should be meeting their milestones. Um, and so what happens often when I see those babies who my baby's lazy or my baby is just so content, often those babies are actually have a lot of tightness. And they actually can't move. And so that could, I said before, be related to whether they had a history of oral ties or reflux or a condition called tortocalis, where they have a tight neck muscle and they're they have like a head tilt or positioning a utero. And so if your baby is very rigid in their movements and stuck and you're like, oh, they're just, they just don't want to move. They're just so lazy. Babies aren't inherently lazy. Again, they might move less than that. I'm gonna move everywhere and I'm never gonna stop, right? There's there's variations of motivation, but all babies should be able to move and and be able to meet these milestones.

SPEAKER_02: 45:34

Are twins more likely to be really tight in utero and have issues related to that?

SPEAKER_03: 45:40

Absolutely. Um, they absolutely can be. Um, my daughter came out with a head turning preference. So you'll see a few things, right? Head turning preference where they only want to look in one direction. And sometimes it's that torticollis that I mentioned with um with a tilted neck and a turn to the opposite side because of very tight neck muscle. And sometimes you might not see anything and you might just feel these rigid movements. Usually there is there's some sort of sign they're having difficulty nursing or taking a bottle. They have oral ties. A lot of these things come together. Um, and and I have seen that more with a lot with twins and also a lot with singletons. So it could also be the size of the mother's pelvis and how they're positioned. Like I'll see actually a lot of times with siblings, where their older child had oral ties and torticles, and now their second one does, and now they know to look for it much faster. And it might just have to do with the mother's pelvis and how it, you know, the baby's positioned in in utero. And so that can happen because if babies have a tighter, tighter, you know, womb to grow in, they might be stuck in one position and not able to move as much in utero. And that's when they come out and they might have a head-turning preference, they're not moving so much. And one of the early signs is struggling with feeding. Um, and so if you're seeing some of that, that's when I see very, very, very fast progress. When we get in there and start stretching, you can see progress so quickly, which is why I get so upset when pediatricians tell them there's nothing to worry about. It's like, well, okay, this child, maybe, you know, once you get the feeding down and you can, you know, things are okay, but they could be so much looser and happier. And then once I help parents resolve this, they'll I had this one recently where the mom was like, Yeah, my 10-month-old does not move. She just sits there, she doesn't move, she's so happy playing. We worked within a few weeks, she was all over the place. She was moving, and she said she's so much happier now because she can get her own toys. And you might not think that that's important to the quality of your baby. You're like, oh, well, they're happy sitting there once I give them their toys. But once you see that your baby, wow, they actually did want to go across the room and get their toys. They actually did want to do things. She said her baby stopped pointing so much at the things she wanted because she was now able to like go do what she wanted to do and get around and move independently. And I think that that's so good for babies to be able to explore and do and get more out of their environments on their own.

SPEAKER_01: 47:58

I'm thinking about my son. He's very, very, very athletic, one of those kids who doesn't stop moving, but he never crawled. Like he didn't do the army crawl, he did like a seal. He would put his arms up and that like almost like a breaststroke. Yeah. And his legs now will even get really tired. He'll he'll complain about his legs getting tired.

SPEAKER_03: 48:15

He probably had what I call the wide froggy legs. So again, there's different areas of the body. They might have very strong arms, right? So one of my my tests is can they push up through straight arms? Usually by six, seven. Right. So there you would say, actually, he had super strong arms, but the reason he probably didn't crawl, and again, I would I would love to see pictures, but maybe I'll send you a video. Yeah, maybe he had like wider froggy hips, which I see later on. Could be, could not be. What's a froggy hip? Right. Like, you know, if you see like what are what are froggy legs look like, they go wider out. And we want to see them more parallel and close together, also around six, seven months. But some babies, they have this wider froggy hip. They go outwards, and it means that those hips are loose. They are not strong enough to get those hips up and tuck those knees underneath. Right. And so, so that's why, you know, some babies don't crawl. It's actually their upper body's totally fine. It's their lower half that's struggling. And once we just do some some good, you know, strengthening exercises for the lower body, now they're off because they can get those hips under, those knees tucked, and they're ready to go.

SPEAKER_01: 49:15

Okay. And so for a kid, my kid's five. Um, I would like to do some. Do you have things for older kids too that you can help with? You know, like Zara and I are talking. I mean, it sounds like Zara's kid upper body is fine for me. I mean, I I can see it because he'll complain about his legs getting tired and it bothers, but also he doesn't stop moving.

SPEAKER_03: 49:33

So I don't know how much of it is like Yeah, maybe he's just saying that and you know, it's he doesn't stop moving all day. Yeah. And and like any, like, you know, just like adults going to the gym, there are certain exercises, repetition with any movements is key, and using the muscle groups that are helping to support that. So sometimes kids compensate. They can do things, but they're actually not using the right muscle groups to do them, and that therefore they fatigue more quickly, right? Because they're compensating. And so sometimes what I'll do with kids who need lower body strengthening is I'll do a lot of squatting activities where I'll put, let's say we'll take a puzzle board, you know, and so I'll put all the puzzle pieces on the floor and the puzzle board up high. And now they'd like squat down for that one puzzle piece at a time and put it on on the puzzle board, squat and stand, just like we would do squats, right? But now we we introduce it through play with kids. Or I'll take the same thing and I'll put the puzzle board at the top of a flight of stairs and all the puzzle pieces at the bottom of the stairs. And now they'd have to take one piece at a time and alternate. Certainly at age five, they should be able to do this, alternate up the stairs and go back, alternating down the stairs and up and again, because it's the repetition that really helps with the same movement, and we're really targeting certain muscle groups that are helping to strengthen up. Well, I might do some jumping, I might do a um an obstacle course that involves some squatting and jumping and jumping over something, all trying to activate those real muscle groups, the hips and the core, that are going to support, you know, more endurance for physical activity.

SPEAKER_01: 51:01

That makes sense. Honestly, you just described a summer activity that I'm gonna try to do because I feel like that would keep him entertained for a little bit, going up and down the stairs for Does crawling also help with like bilateral brain function, because like pickleball or tennis or something?

SPEAKER_03: 51:14

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the um the some of the other added benefits are both crossing midline and right right brain-left brain connections. And so that's why it actually also helps support reading. Um, and so crossing midline is something where the right and left brain are making connections between both sides. And the more babies and children use either both sides of the body in coordination and cross the imaginary line that runs down the center of the body. So imagine this line that goes between your eyes, down your nose, and all the way down and between your feet. That's the midline. And we want children to be able to eventually cross the midline. It's not a skill that babies are born with, and you fully mature by about age eight. And so we want our children to be able to connect the right and left brains through these bilateral coordination and crossing midline activities, which crawling actually does support. Um, and so that does help with, again, things like reading, things like swinging a bat, um, uh putting belts, swimming, all those types of things that require riding a bicycle, all the things that require not only the strength that crawling does support, but the bilateral coordination and crossing midline as well.

SPEAKER_02: 52:25

That's so interesting. Are there any sports or activities that you think are really beneficial for like kind of this young elementary school age kid to play? Sure.

SPEAKER_03: 52:34

And I will preface that answer with saying I'm the most non-athletic person ever. So I'm not athletic. I I I am a good swimmer, but like not like a race, I just never a racer because I'm also not competitive. I'm like, we could all win. Um, it's not like I don't I don't like competition. So I write, I'm like, we we're all great, let's all support each other. But for I I do think, not because this was my thing that I was good at, but swimming is a definitely a full body activity. And and that I'll say first that all sports are great for kids. I am not a competitive person, so I'm not one that ever encouraged my kids. Like my kids are never going to be, you know, extreme athletes. So my kids only did activities that were fun if they wanted to do it for recreational purposes. We as a family never really prioritized the sports for the competitive nature of it. And I know many families do, and I fully support it, just wasn't what my kids wanted. So I didn't, because it's not a me thing, I just didn't care. But they but they always did actually, my boys also did gymnastics, which was amazing for boys, by the way. My boys loved gymnastics. It's again, they never competed, but it's a full-body activity that allows them to jump and climb and learn how to do it safely. So if your child is one of those, like, you know, my my one of my sons would climb on top of my swing set. My friends would be like, Is he's up there? Is that okay? And I'm like, No, no, he he knows. Like he is, he has a lot of body awareness. And so I know that if he falls, he will land on his feet beautifully and have no issues, and he never falls. Um but you that's how my kids are. Yeah, yeah. And so he would climb on top of the of the house of the swing set, and then he would crawl across the top of the pole where the swings hang down and other down the other side. And he he thrived in gymnastics. And so that was a great activity for all of my kids. Um, I think swimming is great. And I would actually just encourage that if if your kids are looking for like a physical outlet, like baseball was not a great sport in terms of like that physical activity strengthening. It might be fun. I don't understand why baseball is fun. I think it personally is the most boring sport ever. And golf. My son is obsessed. Some kids are obsessed, like obsessed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:42

I I get to hit a ball with a bat, like that's probably pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03: 54:46

One of my kids, my boys both one year wanted to sign up for baseball. And I was like, okay, fine. I regretted it because each game was like two hours. It was horrible. And one of my sons would sit there playing with the sand because he was so bored in this sport. Like, this is so boring. Um, but I just think it's a very sedentary sport. So if your child needs a lot of activity, then soccer or something like that is much more, they can run around even if they're not kicking the ball, but at least they're running and engaging rather than baseball, which is like stand still and look, and especially when you're playing with little kids, they're not, they're not even hitting the ball. So there's not even much to do when you're out in the outfield. So so I think if you're gonna look for something for little kids, taking the competition part out of it and your own personal, like what sport you did as a kid. Um, I really think those things that keep kids moving is ideal because that's what kids really want to be doing. They want to be moving. And so gymnastics, soccer, I mean, maybe basketball, though. I think for little kids, it's sometimes hard to like handle the ball and passing the ball. But it could be if your kid is a natural addict, go for it. Um, and I think anything that keeps them moving is is great.

SPEAKER_01: 55:53

As if you can stop some of them. We were at a birthday party yesterday and it was all girls and my son, and which happens sometimes. And as we were leaving, because we left early, my husband was saying, like, isn't the difference between a girl's party and like a boy? We haven't been to any other gendered parties that are only boys. It seems like this is very girl thing, but nobody was crying. They were all watching the magic princess. Every I was like, what? They were all listening. I was like, what is this? Like, if it was a boy's party, no one's bleeding. Yeah, that's what I said. I was like, no one's bleeding, nobody has a truck stuck in their ear. Like, everyone's fine. It's so quiet. It was it was shocking. I know. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03: 56:29

Yeah, because I have I have three birthdays within two weeks because my twins were born almost like my son, my third was born two weeks after my twins turned two. So I have three birthdays within two weeks. And I one girl and two boys. And I remember one year I I did, and you're right, girls do the gendered only parties because it's so much easier. Boys, at least, like they're all it's all crazy anyway. So you might as well have the girls like balance it out, maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 56:53

But for the everyone likes to just do the boys stuff where it's like go to a gym, go play.

SPEAKER_03: 56:58

Exactly. Versus the girls, if you're doing like an arts and crafts party, you don't want the boys there like throwing the paint at their friends to like spice things up a little bit, you know? So I remember one year I had my daughter's party and we did like this arts and crafts party, and I bought some things from what was that Oriental Trading, you know, website where you buy like the supplies and we did, you know, whatever art stuff and played some games. And I had a lot of girls. I had like 30 girls at this party, but like it went smoothly and great. Two weeks later, I had my younger son, I forgot what I did with my my twin boy son. I don't remember, but I remember that two weeks later I had my son, my middle son's party, and also I had a whole bunch of boys, and it was a beautiful April day, and I was doing it outside, and I tried to do some like organized activities. They all went crazy and we're all on my trampoline and my swing sets, and they were running around and nobody was listening. And I was like, you know what? We're gonna just let them do that. That's what they are enjoying. And they are going to just have fun in my backyard. And I am not going, and my mom is standing like, oh, do you want to like try you want me to help you like organize them? Because she's like good at like organized activities. And I'm like, um, you gotta just let the crazy be. Just let them go. If this is what they're having fun doing, then let it be.

SPEAKER_01: 58:11

I feel like that's a great motto for parenting in general, is just like, let the crazy happen, just let it, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 58:18

As long as nobody ends with stitches, like I feel like we're okay. Like we just want to keep everyone somewhat safe, but you know, allow them to enjoy, like, you know, we we I talk a lot about risky play. And and, you know, a lot of people want to like keep their kids very safe and in a bubble and don't do. And I'm all about like, you know, let your kids play, do what they're capable of doing. And risky play is okay too. Like they can jump, they can climb, they can tumble, they get us some bruises, it's okay. We want to, you know, prevent the stitches if we can, broken bones, but like we want, we want our kids to be taking risks, enjoy their play, and not limit them too much if we can.

SPEAKER_01: 58:55

It also tests teaches kids to trust their bodies. I think that's really important too, because it's like, okay, well, do you think you can do that? Yeah, okay, cool. Like, let's try it. And if you fall, that's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 59:06

Yeah, kids learn the first thing, the first way they learn is through the physical, right? That's the way they learn most things is through physical first. And so if they can learn to trust their body movements, they're going to learn to trust themselves more and more through life. Um, and so that's why I often say to my kids, this was back when they were little. Um, and I I shared this a lot, you know, back in the day on Tats on Target, but I would say, like, you know, do you feel safe rather than be careful, don't stop. Um, and not that I didn't sometimes say stop, don't be careful. I'm a mom, and sometimes I did, and you don't want your kid running into the street. Like, it's okay to have boundaries. You must wear a helmet while riding a bike, like, you know, risk within boundaries. Um, but it's also okay to like say to your kids, like, do you feel safe doing that? Do you feel comfortable at the playground? I always always had a rule, like, I don't help my kids at the playground. Number one, because I want to be lazy. And number two, because they should learn how to help themselves. If you got up, let's figure out how to come down. So I'd rather speak it to you, right? You climb to the top, mommy, I can't get down, help me. Okay, well, maybe if you move your foot down, down over here, maybe if you turn your body, maybe if you hold on here, it'll it'll be okay. And then they do that and like, oh yeah, I can get down. And you have like sometimes talking them through something rather than coming to their rescue in the you know, in the moment that they need you, they can learn to problem solve better, which is really a fantastic skill, life skill for them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:26

Plus, I see so much. Content on TikTok about how parents are uninvolved at the park. I don't know if you've seen all this, but it's like it's this very kind of, I go to the park and people aren't even parenting their kids anymore. And I think to your point, it's really healthy to let kids have a little bit of space, you know, as long as they're safe, of course. And even socially, sometimes I think that you see a lot of people say, oh, somebody came up to my kid and said something, and I had to go in and parent this kid because his parent wasn't let your kids work things out a little bit, right? I mean, be there, stand there and make sure nothing bad happens.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:04

But I mean, as parents, it seems like we can never do it fully right. Right? Like it's we're never, we're never gonna be in the right, no matter what we do, it seems. And I do think that it's it's so important that parents feel like it's okay to not be involved every single second in your child's life. Now, yes, if your kid is knocking over other kids at the playground, like, you know, keep your eyes generally on, make sure everybody's like being somewhat nice and okay. But it really has changed the dynamic of childhood that kids no longer quote unquote fight their own battles at all, ever. It's it's actually a real challenge for kids as they as they get older that we as parents feel like we're going to be judged if we don't step in and help all the time. And my kids are actually all right now in Sleepway Camp. Um, all four of them are at camp for four weeks. And I've gotten some word, they send some letters, they send some things like, you know, I got a top bunk when I wanted a bottom bunk. Or uh last year my son lost all of his shirts and didn't have any shirts. And he, you know, he sent them all in the laundry, he got nothing back. And and, you know, sometimes I'm like, sometimes I like cringe, like, oh my gosh, my baby needs me. Like I need to step in. And you know what? I say to myself, no, these are the the experiences that they're having that they've got to work it out. They've got to go find somebody at camp to help them, or they need to work it out with a friend, or they need to work it out with their counselor, whatever it is. And again, this is now I'm talking about older when my kids are at sleepway camp. But the point is it actually never really ends. It's where do we begin? Right? They're they're always going to have to problem solve. But if the first time my kids ever had to problem solve was when they were at Sleepboy Camp or later, well, then how do they trust themselves? How do they know that they're capable of doing anything for themselves? We really need to start at a younger stage where we've we we're giving our kids the confidence that they actually can take care of certain things, whether that's getting down from a high surface in a playground, negotiating with a friend, or something else.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:08

Yeah. Well, and the confidence too. I've heard this thing where when you do things for your kids, it feels really good like to solve them for them, but that's giving you confidence and it's taking their confidence away. So like I will use that with my kid. I'll be like, yeah, you need to do that on your own. I don't want to steal your confidence. But now they start coming back and they're like, you can have it. I don't need it. You know?

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:30

I have all the confidence. You know, I actually I read this great book so many years ago. It's called How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk. It's a it's a famous book. It's been around for many years. One of the things that I took away from that, what I use all the time in professionally and parenting, is sometimes it helps if. So when your kids come to you and say, I can't do the zipper, right? Sometimes it helps if you lower the zipper all the way down and do it this way, right? Sometimes it helps if you move your hand here. Sometimes it helps if you do it this way. And you can guide your child without telling them what to do, doing it for them, starting the conversation kind of opens it. I find the phrase to be very, very helpful. You're like, oh, yeah, sometimes it helps if you try it this way. And this way you're you're engaging with them, like they're asking for help. You give a little bit, but then see if they can take a tip and continue on themselves a little bit more. And like it, it feels like you're you're giving a little bit, but they really have to do more of the work.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:31

Yeah, that makes sense. I know we have taken up so much of your time. We're over time right now, but we always like to wrap up with a couple of questions. So is there a part of parenthood that has brought you joy that you weren't expecting it to?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:45

Um, a part of parenting, oh, what a loaded question. A part of parenting.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:49

Um anything can be one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:51

Yeah, you know, I'll say I, when my kids were little, I always kept saying all over social media, enjoy this time while your kids are little. It's so short. You're never gonna remember, which is the last time you're gonna hold your child. It's it and that stress, it really stressed me out because I had a very hard time when my kids were little because they were all so young. At the same time, I felt very overwhelmed. I'm actually enjoying the stage that they're at so much now. I am enjoying this, you know, older elementary school age, um, you know, middle upper elementary school age, where like my kids are more independent, but they still need me. We still connect, we're still doing things. And it really taught me like this pressure in society of like, you need to enjoy a certain stage of life, really, really like affected me in a negative way. And I'm actually really enjoying, like, sometimes like I'm so tired at night, my kids keep going, like they don't have a bedtime. They'll come like watch TV in bed with me at night, and like I fall asleep and they're still watching. But I I love that time that we have together. They watch shows that I'm actually interested in now. So like we're watching together, and it's like a really beautiful quality time that you don't get when they're little. And I'm like, no, I actually am really enjoying this stage a lot more than social media told me that I would.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:06

Everyone talks about how hard teenagers are and all of that. And I'm like, I feel like, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:12

And it is in a different way, but it's also easier in many ways.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:15

Yeah. Yeah. And then if you could give a friend or even yourself before you had kids one piece of advice before they head into parenthood, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:27

That you know your child best. And you are the person who's going to advocate for your child best because you have your child's best interest at heart. I think we don't always have confidence as parents to always, you know, go back at a doctor to say, no, this there really is something here, or whether it's with a teacher that your child is struggling in a class or whatever it is, it's hard to feel that confidence of, you know, how, how do I support my child? Do I, you know, how do I navigate certain situations? And and feeling like, you know, you are your child's best advocate. You're the one who actually cares the most, is, and you're the only one that is going to always look out for your child's best interest. Everybody else could say, oh, yes, we're on your child's team. It doesn't mean that there's malicious intent, obviously. But everybody else is looking out for a lot of different factors and you are focused on your child. And so again, if I could go back and tell myself again, like, have that confidence. As the parent, I think we don't have the confidence because this is the first time we're going through it, you know? And um, and I do look back and say, oh, if I could do it again, I would, I would know how to do it better because I would feel confident in myself and know what to do. So, you know, feel confident that even though you might be new in in the early stages of parenting, you're going through whatever age you're going through, you can you you are your best team, the best team leader for your child. And that's that's important.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:54

Yeah, I love that. Actually, one follow-up question. Did you do you think you were a better parent with your fourth than you were with your first two?

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:02

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes, because I had experience behind me. So I felt a lot more confident about so many things that like I I realized that, oh gosh, had I only known that with my first, I would have helped in that way. Or I, you know, and and it's it's hard, but more experience makes you better at at whatever it is, right? And it doesn't mean that my fourth didn't have things that I never dealt with with my firsts, you know, like with my others. Oh, there's every child is going to come with new things, but but you are a more confident parent. You know more, you know what to expect, you know what a certain rash looks like, you know what different things come out that you've never dealt with before. And you're like, no, no, like I know that this needs to be seen, or I know that this doesn't need to be seen. And that's just taking the medical examples, but I think I was experienced and that makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:55

Yeah, it's like any job.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:58

Well, Allison, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate all the time you spent with us, which we know you have so limited of resources. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:07

Thank you so much for having me. I loved this conversation. It was great.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:10

Awesome. And then we'll link where you can find Allison in the show notes and all of that, all the good stuff. So thank you for listening.