The Truth About: Co-Parenting with Julia Dennison

What happens when a parenting journalist becomes a parent and the plan falls apart mid-pregnancy? Julia Dennison joins us with a story that’s equal parts raw and reassuring: an affair discovered while expecting, a divorce before the first birthday, and a co-parenting journey shaped by clarity instead of control. We dig into what it takes to raise a nine-year-old in a world that still expects moms to be invisible, how to split the mental load without weaponized scorekeeping, and why the best logistics often look like a simple shared calendar and a face-to-face check-in.

Julia opens up about her daughter’s recent ADHD diagnosis and the reality behind the buzzwords: late recognition in girls, after-school meltdowns, masking in class, and the heavy lift required to secure an IEP or meaningful support. We talk costs, waitlists, neuropsych evaluations, and the painful equity gap that leaves too many kids behind. Along the way, she shares how a thoughtful step-parent can become an ally, why power dynamics deserve attention, and how to keep curiosity alive when one partner has “all the research.”

This conversation is a reminder that expertise only goes so far. Parenthood is less about perfect scripts and more about small, honest moves: meowing a kid to bed, eavesdropping on Barbie diplomacy, and choosing connection over control. You’ll hear practical ideas for co-parenting structures, advocacy in schools, and village-building that actually lightens the load. Most of all, you’ll feel a grounded kind of hope: the hard parts shift, the good parts deepen, and joy has a way of sneaking back in when we make room for it.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a lift, and leave a quick review to help others find us. Your support helps keep these real conversations going.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Julia Dennison
• 1:54 Is Eight Really The Hardest Age
• 2:54 Choosing Parenthood Without Feeling Ready
• 4:17 Pregnancy Shock And Marriage Breakdown
• 7:16 Deciding To Divorce With A Baby
• 9:06 Building A Healthy Co-Parenting Dynamic
• 12:04 The “Worst Group Project” Of Parenting
• 15:08 Mental Load, Time Off, And Village-Building
• 19:13 Qualities Of Ride-Or-Die Mom Friends
• 22:31 Gender Norms, School Culture, And Kids
• 26:25 ADHD In Girls And Advocacy At School
• 30:43 Public Vs Private Supports And Costs
• 34:12 Medication Stigma And Partner Roles
• 36:53 The Price Of Neuropsych And Equity Gaps
• 39:35 What Work Teaches And What Doesn’t
• 42:33 Scripts, Intuitive Parenting, And Joy
• 45:37 Keeping Hope When Systems Fail
• 47:50 Best Advice, Unexpected Joy, Farewell

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:28

Hi everyone, today we are so excited to chat with Julia Dennison, a longtime parenting journalist and a co-parenting mom. If you read parenting publications, chances are Julia has had a hand in creating many of the stories you've read. She's held roles at Parents, Fit Pregnancy, Conceive, and more, and she's currently the digital director of First for Women and Women's World magazines. If I know one thing about my own experience as a parenting journalist turned parent, it's that having all the information can't completely prepare you for the wild ride of actually being a parent. And I'd imagine Julia feels the same way. Julia Dennison, welcome to Do You Want the Truth.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me, Zara and Sam. I can't wait to chat. This is my favorite subject, but also the subject that continues to befuddle me every single day, even though my daughter is just turned nine and you think I might have figured it out by now, but I hear that's the honeymoon stage.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19

Is that the honeymoon stage? Like people are saying nine to 12 or 9 to 11.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

Okay, so that's so interesting that you say that. Back when I worked at Parents, one of our top performing stories at Parents.com was about how apparently age eight was the hardest age. And I remember when that came out, I think my daughter was like three or younger. And I was like, please Lord, no. Like, how is that possible? Like I just felt like whatever phase I was in at the time was as hard as it could have gotten. So then the idea that it could get harder was like very daunting sounding for me. But all that being said, I think eight and nine is pretty good. It's pretty good. I think it gets better and better. I think in general, I mean, maybe I it hits a kind of like a threshold where it it starts to get not as good. I don't know. But for me, it's always just gotten better and better.

unknown: 2:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

Sam and I really feel like three has been the hardest we've faced so far. So that's good.

SPEAKER_02: 2:10

Newborn in three for me. It's newborn in three.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

Oh, yeah. I don't like it. Like the first 18 months and then three. I yeah, I was deep in the pandemic for three. So like it's very much a blur for me, but I also think it would have been a blur for me, anyways, because three is a blur.

unknown: 2:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:26

Can you tell us a little bit about your kind of parenting journey and you know how you decided you were ready to become a parent?

SPEAKER_00: 2:33

Oh gosh. I don't think anyone ever feels like, I don't know, maybe people do sometimes feel like they're ready to become a parent, but I feel like you never feel totally prepared. And often you can be like waiting for that moment. I was actually married for I think about 10 years before I ever had my daughter. So, and it was always something that was like, will we, won't we, will we, won't we? We. And I think eventually it was like, you know what? I don't think we're ever gonna feel that like full green light where we feel totally ready. So like let's just do this. I also happened to be working at, I think it was, I was working at fifth pregnancy and then parents at the time. And it was a funny thing where I was like working on the parenting beat before being a parent is either going to make me really want to become a parent or like really not want to become a parent because I'll have too much information. But it was the former, and um, I decided I'd just bite the bullet. And um I kind of I don't know if I ever knew I'd always wanted to become a mom. I don't think so. Um, it wasn't something that was just like always something that I was heading, heading for. So it was something that I kind of came to with curiosity. And honestly, I think working on the parenting beat before I was a parent did help steer me in that direction just because it just seemed, I was like, I want to see what this is like for real. And then, yeah, and my parenting journey has been kind of an interesting one. I actually ended up, it's funny because I was married for so long before I had a child. And when then we ended up actually splitting up when she was, it started our kind of the our marriage kind of started to kind of come apart when I was pregnant, up until when she was one when we really split. So um most of my marriage was without with pre-kids, without having um my daughter. And then so yeah, I've been basically divorced and co-parenting for the majority of her life. So it's been an interesting, interesting journey.

SPEAKER_02: 4:15

That is interesting. So it started falling apart when you were pregnant. That's can can I ask about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 4:22

Sure. And I've actually talked about this a little bit before on another podcast and various other places, but yeah, it was basically like it was, you know, an affair essentially when I was pregnant. It was like the worst. Oh my God, why do they do that? I don't know, but it's a very common thing and I hear about it a lot. And I often think like pregnancy is this moment where I know it's like it's a test point for the relationship. I mean, I I like to say that it's a little bit like a red herring because I think that our relationship wasn't necessarily in the best state before that, not to make any excuses because it was the worst, but um it just felt a little bit like when we decided to have Esme, it was a little bit like, okay, we're gonna do this, like let's do this now. And it was sort of like probably came at a time when there might have been some sort of initial red flags in the relationship, but we'd been together for so long. But yeah, it all kind of happened while I was pregnant. So it was like um in the middle, like very kind of blindsided. And so my pregnancy was like a real roller coaster ride from um halfway through onwards. But you know, it just meant that I was like very closely bonded with my daughter even before she was born, just because it was like kind of the two of us for the second half of my pregnancy, like a lot of the friends. Yeah. It was brutal. And so one of my things I always say is some I have a friend who's pregnant right now and she's worried about stress, and she's like, Oh, I'm so stressed all the time over blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, honestly, I had the most stressful pregnancy. And also one of the positives about working in the parenting space and working on a parenting beat. And sorry, I know you can relate to this, is like you get into the research and you realize there's like actually not a lot that you can do when you're pregnant to like have any kind of impact on the baby. So stress is unless it's like extreme, like we're talking like living in a war-torn country kind of stress, potentially, but like otherwise you can have a really stressful pregnancy and you'll be, I mean, besides your own psych, um, you know, psyche and emotional well-being, um, the baby will be just fine. So I was very blessed, had a very healthy girl, but it was, you know, it was an interesting, I was sort of hit the ground running with a roller coaster from the beginning, for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 6:38

Do you think the fact that you were pregnant and having a baby changed your decision making around whether to stay in the marriage or not?

SPEAKER_00: 6:46

Um, you know, that's so funny. Yes. I think it it was such a you know when you're looking at divorce and you're looking at sort of pulling the trigger and deciding if it's the right thing, there's a lot of like, should I, shouldn't I? How much do you want to kind of give it a shot? There was a lot of conversation of how much like we would like try. And I remember having a friend of mine uh whose niece was eight, and her parents were just getting divorced. And she said to me, and I was having brunch with that friend, and I said, I'm trying to decide like, should I or shouldn't I um now or when or when do I do it? And you know, I'm obviously at a point where it's like having a one-year-old, it was like, you know, right up until when she was about one, I was like doing this by myself. And I wouldn't be doing it by myself. We I knew it would be a co-parenting situation, but pulling the trigger now seems hard. But I did come into the decision because I was like, do I do this now or do I prolong it? And I was talking to my friend and she's like, my niece who's eight and going through this now. Like it's a very different kind of a conversation. So it's not to say you can choose when you get divorced necessarily, but I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this sooner rather than later, so that at least it's the only thing that she knows. Um and what's interesting is that now that she's nine, it you don't totally dodge that, even though it's the only thing she she knows. She's now coming to the age where she sees like other families that, you know, she sees that her family is different and like has a lot of questions now. So it's not to say that you can avoid any of that by doing it earlier if that happens to come to you. But I was sort of like, at least it'll be all she she understands and knows in terms of like how her home life is. So it did kind of play into my decision a little bit in terms of like, all right, like let's let's get this going so that we can kind of start the healing phase and figure out like what our co-parenting structure is gonna look like, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03: 8:34

And I know that you and your ex have a really good relationship, right? I've heard you say that a few times. Yeah. Have you had to do a lot of work to get it to that place?

SPEAKER_00: 8:43

Um, so I I really do feel like that's one of my greatest blessings in life is being able to co-parent with my ex well. Um, and, you know, be on the same page as my ex when it comes to how I parent my daughter. I've talked about before on my podcast and various other places that like it's kind of tremendous that we expect expect a partner to have all these skills, you know, to be your best friend, to be your lover. In fact, I just saw there was a New York Times article about this this morning, but you know, to be your lover, to be your best friend, to also parent with you. I mean, parenting is like a job, really is like a job, you know, with like you delegate and things like that, and you have like a project plan and all that. And it's very um, it's a lot to be compatible in all those ways, I think. And I'm again, I'm not saying that you can't find it in, you know, my newest chapter is I've met a really wonderful person and he's stepping in as a stepdad to my daughter, and it's a really wonderful moment. And he really is doing all those things. So I've been kind of like blown away by the fact that yes, I think you can have all those skills and work on those skills, but it doesn't come easily. So the one of my greatest blessings is that my ex that I co-parent with, we we are very much on the same page from a parenting perspective. And I think that's like what you the greatest thing you could wish for when you're co-parenting with a father of your of your child is that you are on the same page when it comes to to parenting and what you would want from from your child. And I think I just decided that like, you know, from an early, from early on that I would just, you know, we prioritize my daughter and what her well-being and what she needs. And that's the most important thing. And I think, you know, if you keep that as your North Star, and I I I recognize it's not easy. I recognize it's not easy. Um, and that there are plenty of people who are doing this with with folks who are less easy to co to co-parent with. So I again I see it as one of my greatest blessings versus something that's always going to be the case for everybody.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

I was just talking to Zara about this before we hopped on here, where I have this like theory, I have all these weird theories, but one of them is that it's so hard to parent with somebody, like and go through those early stages and your expectations versus the support they give you versus the support that they know how to give, because I don't think that anyone goes into this trying to harm their partners or trying to not support them. But it's it's interesting because you come into this thing and it's like the worst group project you could ever do because no one has done it before. Usually in your group project, you're parenting, you're going, you're sleep, you're not sleeping, pregnancy is awful, birth is awful, like all these things, and you have all these resentments built up. And then you separate and then you find the next person, but you don't have all that baggage and that group project where they didn't show up and you didn't have to redo their work and all of that stuff. And so you can have like a happy, joyful time with them. But I talk to my mom friends about that a lot because I really struggled in my marriage for the first few years or of parenthood. And it's interesting because I'm like, if I somebody showed up now, it would be much easier because we're not going through all that muck and grime. And like you don't have to see those ugly parts of each other, I feel like. But I don't know if that rings true to you.

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

Oh, I think I think that's very true. I mean, I think like second marriages or second, you know, long-term relationships are always going to have um a lot working in their favor because you know what you're looking for. And one of the things that can go into a relationship looking for is somebody who's gonna parent well. Cause like when you choose your partner before you become parents, at least for me, we didn't even know we it was like, like I said, 10 plus years before we ever decide to become parents. So I wasn't actually looking for necessarily looking for like a good or even knew what a good co-parent or parent, fellow parent would look like. So I think there's a lot going in your favor when you're kind of um meeting somebody after as a second relationship, after you've been married before, or you know, who's stepping in as a step parent. But it's interesting because it comes with his challenges too. Like and Matt, my my my boyfriend is just so wonderful and so lovely about everything. And he's like just so engaged. And he, you know, we're looking for schools for Esme right now. And he like he can joins the call before he even um met my daughter. He met my ex. Like he wanted to proactively meet my ex. And he's like literally doing everything right, and it's been so wonderful to watch. But then there is that also the fact that, like, I guess it's like, I don't know what you might kind of compare it to, but I've been doing this now for eight, nine years. Or when he stepped in, I guess it was like seven years. Um, so I had seven years on him. So sometimes it's like almost like when you're you're working with somebody and you you have seven years on them and they're on your resume, and they step into the job and they're like, How about this great idea? And you're like, well, that won't work because I've already done this, but like, sure, you know, like give it a try. You know, there's a little bit of like, I I I I've had to kind of check myself where I want him to feel like he has agency and the ability to explore things with curiosity. And it's hard because one, I've been doing it for now nine years, but um right seven years on him. Also, I was an editor at parents.com. So it's like I'd be like, interesting. Well, this study, this study. And like, so you know, I think that there can be a little bit of a power dynamic that happens when someone's stepping into like the kind of step parent role if they don't have their own kids, um, that comes with its own complexities. And I try to kind of like be as, you know, as um open and just try to like really like you know, let him find explore parenting with his own curiosity and come with his own. And he has, I mean, like we're working through a lot recently around my daughter and like, you know, her learning support and various things and he can relate to and he brings things to the table. So I think it's also just recognizing that they have things to bring to the table too, even if it wasn't from a parenting perspective. But like he had his own life experience that is also really helpful. Um, but yeah, nothing is easy, but you know, uh you are you do get the ability to choose um a partner who's gonna parent your specific child well when you're choosing a second partner after your child is born.

SPEAKER_03: 14:38

Yeah. And you know, I think we're having all these cultural conversations now about kind of splitting the load and invisible labor and the mental load and all these things that I think are really kind of helping people approach partnership after kids in a different way. Yes. I don't think when any of us had our kids, we were really having those conversations as much. And I think they really started kind of during the pandemic. Um, I guess Sam, you had you became a mom during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_02: 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:05

Um but yeah, I think those It forced a lot of those conversations, I think. We didn't have them.

SPEAKER_02: 15:12

We didn't have conversations. I didn't know what conversations to have. Somebody I remember I was pregnant and they're like, What kind of parenting style are you gonna do? And I was like, Parenting style, what are you talking about? And they're like listing off these like regimens or whatever. And then they were like, in what kind of school, what kind of pedagogy are you looking for? And I was like, What are you talking about? I'm gonna have a kid, like what?

SPEAKER_00: 15:34

I know.

unknown: 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:36

And I feel like all those different parenting styles, like, yeah, I don't know. It's like you never kind of parent one way ever. You know, I always joke that you might have like everything, like your um, your your Dr. Becky script in the back of your head. But then, like when reality hits, like everything is you're never prepared for the exact situation you're gonna be faced with. And kids always throw, throw at you like they the moment that's gonna be like the big sex talk is never when you think it's gonna be. It'll be like you're driving somewhere and you're stressed and you're in between doing something, and then they throw it at you, and all of a sudden you're like, oh shoot, I got a parent with a capital P right now, and I'm like totally not prepared with the scripts. So I think, like, you know, yeah, it's totally a lesson, I think, in just yeah, going with the punches. But um, true that the pandemic, I think, forced a lot of that, but I would say also divorce and co-parenting. I I always say that like the the best way to split up the mental load is was when I got divorced. And like you literally split the mental, I mean you split the parenting load. Um, and it's forces you into some of these like very direct conversations about it because it's like who's doing what? Um well and then you sit down. It's not to say that you don't carry more of the mental load as as the mom, no matter what. That still happens, I think, in divorce and co-parenting, but there's a little bit's a little bit more technical, and you take away the kind of like romance side of it. So you can just get really down to business in some ways. That's helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:56

Yeah, I know Kristen Cavalieri, I saw a few years ago. I think someone asked her how she like makes time for herself and time for her work and all that. And she's like, honestly, it didn't happen until I got divorced. And that's really what enabled me to get this perfect balance because I have a week where I'm completely like a hundred percent in on motherhood. And then I have a week where I can focus more on work and travel and see my friends and go out to dinner and go on dates. And oh yeah, it's yeah, it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00: 17:22

I relate to that big time. And I always say, I talk about that. I always say to my friends that they, you know, I wish that they could parent a little bit more like a co-parent and that like exactly that. Like when I'm off, I'm not, I mean, you're never off entirely as a mom. But like you get to really like, I get to really be off and focus on myself and don't and I don't feel guilty about it because I just don't have my kid during that week. And it's so important. And I'll have friends who are like, oh, you know, like I don't know if I can like that's bedtime, and maybe I could work around bedtime, and I'll be like, okay, but like, isn't your husband at home? And it's like, yes, but and I'm like, well, sometimes you just gotta like force it and take the time and not feel guilty about it. And so, yes, co-parenting divorce like lets you do that in a way that's very, very nice. Um, so not to say I recommend divorce, but there are positives. Yes, it's you know, it's interesting, anyways. But I think some of those positives can be carried through even in in partnerships for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 18:16

My husband's going on a golf trip in a few months, and he's like, you know, you should really, you should plan a trip with your friends. Like, you need to get away too. I'm like, I don't want to plan one more thing. Well, that's how it's too.

SPEAKER_00: 18:26

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 18:27

Oh, maybe I should.

SPEAKER_00: 18:28

That's true. You should. No, but that's a really good point. Like, I think there is an element. One of our other most popular stories when I was at at Parents was um this essay that's I'm trying to remember who wrote it, but it was an essay about going for a run and about how like dads can just go for a run. They're like, I'm going for a run. And moms will do the thing where it's like, is it okay if I go for a run? Like, I'll just be like half an hour, no big deal. Like, there's the sippy cups over there and the like you have to kind of like opt out instead of like opting in a lot. And I think that same thing happens when it comes to, I think there are a lot of conversations sometimes with dads who are just like, Well, why don't you take the trip? And it's like, okay, it's not that easy necessarily either to just take the time for a lot of reasons.

SPEAKER_02: 19:10

It's also a lot of permission that you have to give yourself. Um and I think that it's like a societal thing. But the other thing is we don't live in community. And so, like what you're talking about, my husband and I went through a separation. And when we did that, that's when I was able to get the mental load stuff off. Cause I was like, I had built the community, but like if you've ever built a community, you know how fucking hard it is. And it's brick by brick, and you have to be like really okay with being uncomfortable and getting to know new people. And it's really awkward, especially like as a first-time mom. Um, actually, even not especially as an adult, I should say. It's really, really difficult. And so once we did that, I was like, okay, fuck it. You plan the dates, you do whatever you want. And that time, it wasn't even that long, it was a couple of months. It allowed him, like me to step back and him to step in and start doing those things. And it's been incredible because, like, now all of the dads will like hang out, even though we want them to hang out more. We're like, just go out. But we just went on vacation. Now it's a second year in a row. We've gone on a fourth of July vacation with my son's friends and their families. And it's great because you get to relax and you get to have time off. Like we sent the kids to, you know, look at a gold mine while the moms went to Goodwill and, you know, hung out. And then the moms come back and you take over and we do swim lessons or whatever it is. And so you do get that break in different ways without having to get a divorce. And I think America in particular doesn't encourage or even really allow communal living, like community living in general. Um where it's yeah, like where you get to know your neighbors. Like on Sundays, my son goes over to our neighbor's house and does art and learns Chinese. And like, but it is one of those things you have to get comfortable with being like, hey, can you teach my kid? Like, can you do these things? And then you'll find um you actually do get a mental break and a physical break too, even if it's like an hour or a half day or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

Oh, that's so true. Yeah. And that's the thing also that's nice about co-parenting, also, is it does kind of force you to build that village, not just necessarily because, like, you know, well, then you do have the benefit of meeting a new person. And with that, he's got wonderful parents. And actually, his parents are divorced. So he's got like two sets of wonderful parents. So, like, my my daughter's village continues to grow. But I also think that um, when you go through something hard and it doesn't have to be divorce or anything like that. Um, and I think it sometimes is just even parenting or something like the pandemic, like it really brings my my best friends are my mom friends, and the mom group text is real. And I think like the there's more of that happening. I think maybe post-pandemic, just because like there's this like honesty about parenting that's happening and this like larger scale where where moms are coming together. Um, and you see it all over social media. And I think the more that like the more mom friends that you can have, and then like force your kids to be your force the kids of your your friends to be friends with your kids so that you can create these little bubbles. Those have been just like so um just so wonderful. And, you know, another one of my greatest blessings is my mom friends and their kids and forcing my daughter to be friends with their kids.

SPEAKER_02: 22:04

We do the opposite. Our son forces us. He's like, no, these are my friends, and this is who we're gonna hang out with. And we're like, okay, do the dads get along? Do the moms get along? You kind of curate that way, but it's more like kid-led friends.

SPEAKER_00: 22:16

I always I want I'm always pickiest with my mom friends because like a mom friend, there's certain kind of friends who are parents or moms that can also be very triggering on you know these things. And I've had that happen before. So I'm always a little like, okay. Yeah, but a lot for me to have like to have you be one of my like, oh, you know, my true ride or die mom friends, because you kind of have to like meet certain criteria, I feel like, before I let you into the group text, just from my own vulnerability perspective.

SPEAKER_03: 22:47

Yeah, I was actually just thinking about this. What would both of you say are like the qualities that you look for in a mom friend?

SPEAKER_00: 22:55

I think it's not ride or ride or die. I think like obviously it's the like least judgmental, the person that you can come to with like the the most like absurd, unhinged things, and they're just gonna be there, like, okay, right. Like, how do we make this work? Or like, how do I help? Or like that's I think what it is. It's the judgmental thing. Like, there's so many things that happen in parenting. You just want those, those friends that are just gonna be like, you know what, girl, I've been through something just as nutty.

SPEAKER_02: 23:20

Yeah, yeah. I think authenticity, which I think is kind of what you're you're talking about, just like being like real. And I have like a whole whole criteria that I've thought about. Like, cause I think about it all the time. I'm like, how can we make more friends? And at some point you have to stop because it's like, no, this is too many. But for me, it's like, are your parenting styles similar enough? Do your kids get along? Do the husbands get along? In some cases, like the husband is kind of like a nice to have, not a have to have, because you don't have to hang out with the dad. You can be like, no, this is only mom time, which I do have.

SPEAKER_01: 23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:50

I do have people where I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, this is just mom time. And then um, I think your values have to be pretty aligned. Not necessarily political, um, even though I know those go into the same place, but it I remember, you know, I really liked this one mom friend, and we started getting a little bit closer, and she started talking about uh she only believed in abortion for um incest, I think it was. And I was like, okay. And she was like, well, I think that might be okay. And I was like, oh, okay. So, and so when you start getting to that, and she was very real and authentic, but it's like, okay, our morals are maybe a little bit different here. Um so I think there are some like alignment things that you have to have, and then like proximity, you have to be close.

SPEAKER_00: 24:34

Yes, but I think to your point, you don't necessarily as long as you don't necessarily have to be totally aligned on things like that, if they're kind of open to you having a different perspective, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 24:44

Totally, totally. And then if it doesn't start leading down, because for me it was like, okay, that was kind of like an indicator, and then I was like, it went off in a different direction after that. And I was like, okay, so this is a little different.

SPEAKER_00: 24:54

There you go. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 24:56

But I think, I mean, I have mom friends who have different political ideologies, and you know, came over the other day teaching my kid about God, like their daughter did, and I was like, okay, so we're having this conversation, but we're really close friends, and it's like, and my husband's like, You or my son was like, You mean play? Because she was like, Let's play pray over dinner. And he's like, Oh, pray, play. And and he's like, God, what is God? And I was like, Oh, I don't know how to have this conversation. I was like, It's kind of like Santa Claus. I don't know really how to have but again those things.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

But they always hit you with those those big topics when you're least expecting it, and all of a sudden you're like, oh shoot. Always in the car. What's my angle? Always in the car. What's my angle on this? Like, what's the script? And you kind of have to like fake it or figure it out on the fly so much. I feel like.

SPEAKER_02: 25:45

Yeah, I'm like, we'll talk about it later. Zara, what do you think? What do you think in terms of like finding mom friends?

SPEAKER_03: 25:50

Like, what are your I really like moms who have a sense of humility about it. I think that if you're trying to project this like air of perfection, that's fine. I just maybe don't want to be around it all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 26:05

You know? Yeah. Yes. You want the friends who friend who's like, you know what? You can come over to my house as a wreck. And then it's like, thank you. So is mine. So yeah. It's fine. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 26:14

I also think there is so boy moms and girl moms. I've noticed there's also a difference too. Like girl moms are, I've noticed, are a little bit more put together than us boy moms. Zora, you're kind of like both. So I don't know. Um, have y'all seen that? Like the girl moms that will go to a party and they'll like show up in heels and like purses, and like all the boy moms were like in sneakers, ready to run, got our athletic gear because like they were going to sprint away.

SPEAKER_03: 26:43

You know, I could see that because I mean, listen, it doesn't always shake out this way, but my son is very much like a sports little boy. And my daughter loves the purses and the makeup. So yeah, my daughter will, like, before we go somewhere, she'll be like, mommy, let's choose our outfits and can we put some blush on you? And, you know, she's very into that. So I can I can see how it might work out that way.

SPEAKER_00: 27:05

Yeah, my daughter kind of it depends. She can sort of present differently in different times. But also, it's been interesting because we've been down this journey of she's recently diagnosed with ADHD. So we've been like going down that journey of like, and it's interesting because she's a girl, and often, you know, girls aren't diagnosed as much as as boys are when it comes to ADHD, and they present differently too. Um, so like I definitely feel like I've had a lot of the kind of when people talk about being a boy mom, I'm like a lot of the the traits they talk about I recognize in my daughter just from her own ADHD.

SPEAKER_02: 27:36

Um that seems very correct. That every little boy seems like he has ADHD.

SPEAKER_00: 27:42

Yeah, it's a little bit like that. So um, but anyways, yeah, so I feel like she can kind of vary. But it isn't, it's so interesting how like the sort of the gender creeps in there, even when you're trying to kind of raise a child, like, you know, without some of those stereotypes, it's just like they're there. And even if you try to take a balanced approach at home, like school, schools can be very gendered. And I'm noticing that too, like in elementary school. Like the boy, there's a lot of like conversation at our school about boys are like, oh, boys are better at soccer. And I'm like, what? Like, first of all, aren't they? Second of all, like, I can't believe that's like still just happening. I sort of you sort of think that the younger generation's got that figured out, but and part of its nature, right?

SPEAKER_02: 28:27

Some of these things are just I know there is like a lot of nurture that goes into all of this, but something I noticed when I had my son, because I was trying to nurture the hell out of like, you want a doll, you want a unicorn, you want pink. And it was like, no, give me a truck, like always from, you know. And so isn't that wild?

SPEAKER_01: 28:45

It is.

SPEAKER_02: 28:46

Where does that come from?

SPEAKER_03: 28:48

It's like they're little. I will tell you though, having having boy-girl twins, and you know, I I think I'm exposing them to the same things, especially before they started school, but there are just things that they want to do that are different. That's a interesting experiment to have that, to be able to do that. Yeah, it's really been interesting. Um, I think that's kind of the biggest thing you learn with twins is that every kid is different, even if you do the exact same thing. Even if they're DNA, feed them the same way, even if, yeah, even if you try to maintain the sleep schedule, which is interesting because parents of identical twins who I've talked to said that they experience that way less. But I think with fraternal twins, you can really, really see that, like, oh, it's it's not universal and different kids are just gonna respond to different things.

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

Yeah, for sure. You definitely that is the one of my biggest lessons in parenting is that like your kid is their own person. And like you don't necessarily recognize them, you know, yourself and them all the time. Yeah. Do you recognize your when you oh, sorry, go on?

SPEAKER_02: 29:47

Go ahead. I was just gonna say, do you recognize your former partner in her? Do you see that often?

SPEAKER_00: 29:53

Oh, yeah. I think like that can be an interesting one. W in a more kind of serious way, she struggles with anxiety, and that's something we're trying to kind of work on. And then he's also, which I think can potentially be genetic struggles in that department too. So it can see you can sort of see her worrying about things in a way that he worries about. And so, like it is, you know, and but then also, I mean, there's like less there's more lighthearted things, but like, you know, it is kind of an interesting one because that might have been one of the things I was frustrated in when I was married to. Him is just like not frustrated, but like I had to kind of like learn how to cope with a lot of his his anxieties. And it's just interesting that I'm like, oh, okay, here I am. And doing it, you know, I have to figure out how to do it with my daughter. And, you know, she's his daughter. So I definitely do see him in her in that way. Yeah. Isn't anxiety also a symptom of ADHD? Yes. They're all, well, they're all very intertwined. And apparently it can be very hard to parse them out when you're diagnosing because it can sometimes, anxiety can sometimes be confused with ADHD and the other, well, not necessarily the other way around, but yes, like anxiety is a large part of ADHD. And I think it's a little chicken and egg because I think ADHD can, I'm learning all of this. This is the thing about parenting. I feel like you you get you get things put on your plate that you didn't necessarily assign up for, obviously. And then you're like, okay, now I have to become like the crash course expert in this. But um, yeah, so I think like um it can cause anxiety because you know, the very nature of trying to, for her, it's like keeping track of things and she worries about keeping track of things and she worries about things getting lost, but like by her nature, it can lose things, you know, it's like that that happens, they contribute to each other for sure. And I I that really surprised me when her doctor was saying that like it sometimes can be hard to distinguish between an anxiety diagnosis and an AD ADHD diagnosis, or it can be like a combination of both. So yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:50

Did it take a long time for her to be diagnosed? Because I know they say that girls can take longer to diagnose, right? Oh gosh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:56

I mean, it um for sure. It's hard too because it can it manifests often in like struggling in school. And so, like it can it can sometimes be for us, it was like a couple years of her struggling in school for us to kind of really figure out what exactly was going on. So, um, you know, and and that's the biggest kind of wake-up call for me with all this has just been how much you really do have to be your kids' advocate. But like it's so hard when you're working full-time and like you barely have enough time to like do anything, let alone have to like the chase. That's been the hardest thing is like with when you're having to advocate in the mental health space in kids, like there's just not enough resources out there, or they're too expensive, or you know, they're not they don't lend them, they're not proactively going to be put in front of you. You have to go out and seek them. And not only that, but you have to like chase twice or three times to get anything done. That's how I feel. And I'm like, I barely have enough time to just do something once. The fact that I have to then chase like two, three times to, you know, get her IEP through school and like get her set up on the right learning path, and like nothing comes like once and easily, I feel like with that. And that's what's been so hard is just like, I'm like, oh, like this is feels a little bit like parenting in hard mode. I mean, I think there's always, I think parenting is always can be in hard mode, but like there's certain moments where I'm like the juggling, the mental load of trying to kind of advocate, but not only that, but like chase three times to get one thing done, that's the part that I find really hard. And that's where I'm actually extremely grateful for having a co-parenting village because I actually have I actually have three people in my wheelhouse to delegate to. My ex, my, my current partner, he's been so helpful with all of this. So, like when we've had to, you know, figure out if there we should put her in a different school or figure out how her her support when it comes to everything she's been going through. I have like a I have like a a team. That that's been like I don't even know how I I would do it without that. So yeah, that's been one that I've done.

SPEAKER_02: 33:59

I also feel like school isn't really set up for like how kids naturally are. Like none of us are meant to sit in a seat for eight hours. Not at all. Yeah. And like I so I went to Waldorf um and Waldorf-inspired schools, and so until I got to middle school, and I remember walking into my middle school the first day and being like, what the hell is this? Like kids were screaming and throwing things, and that's when my grades actually went down, is when I joined public school because I could not focus. There was always an issue and all of that. But I remember, and a lot of the kids who I grew up with continued Waldorf school through high school, and that's when they got, you know, when they got out, they went to um college, and that's kind of when they got their experience. But they all were allowed to be really creative and really like because in Waldorf, you kind of do what what interests you, you nurture what what interests you and I think that for kids in general, like I I have a hard time staying at my computer for that long or like at a desk.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

It's like so hard. That's what's so frustrating, and that's what I've learned is that like her brain works differently, but all of our brains work differently. And you realize that school and raising kids is like very much an exercise in conformity to the system. And like she creative not that she's extremely creative and she's like, yeah, she's she's I mean, yeah, she like she d loves to kind of write graphic novels and draw and all that stuff on her own in her own time. But when you ask her to do something as part of a school assignment, if it's a school assignment, it's like a very different thing. And you just yeah, you realize that like you can have a really smart kid whose brain is just wired differently, but all of our brains are wired differently in different ways, I think. It's tough.

SPEAKER_03: 35:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is tough. Have you found any like systems that work really well to kind of streamline communication as a co-parent? That is a really great question.

SPEAKER_00: 35:48

Um, I know there are a lot of apps out there. Um, I think I haven't, I never really kind of landed on one per se, but like other than like Google Calendar, it's shared Google Google Calendars, we have our kind of schedule in there and we have like a shared calendar for everything that Esme is doing. And then apart from that, you know, we message regularly. But one of the things that I wanted to kind of try to set up, um, so we had we lost our, we co-parented our dog. I was like, we had our that was our first baby, and we lost our dog like six months ago. And um, and it was she was like very old. So it was time. But um, she also was a moment in time where we would like exchange her on Fridays. So I would have a moment to like sit down with my ex and like sometimes we would have lunch. And I think, and then you know, since her passing, we haven't had that because we usually exchange through school. In other words, like one parent will drop her off and the other will pick her up. So we haven't really had those like moments to like sit down and have lunch. And so I keep saying that I want to put that back in the calendar because I think I think that that's important, having like um a time, not even necessarily to like an agenda to discuss anything particular, but like just a moment to kind of like eat lunch together and talk about, you know, talk about as may outside of like the messaging and the Google calendars and everything else that we use to co-parent. I think sometimes it it can get a little fraught, but it's like text and texting in general, I think is not always the best, like because it could be a misinterpreted interpreted in general. And like we all know it's like texting is an interesting medium. But um, but I think like really face to face and maybe scheduling that in, that's what I would prescribe to myself. And I'm trying, of course, it's like trying to fit that in as a challenge sometimes, especially in the summer when everyone's running around. But um, I think having something consistently like that, just face to face, is probably some of the most one of the most important things you can do as a as a co-parent is just to kind of like have a time with that's not necessarily like fraught, where you can just talk about your kid.

SPEAKER_03: 37:48

Yeah, when there's not a crisis. I think even as a married couple, that can be really important to just kind of set aside that time to do. I don't want to call it family admin, but kind of family admin.

SPEAKER_01: 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:59

My parents also call it the power breakfast. They'd have they would call it their power breakfast, and they would like to talk about parenting at power breakfast. But that sounds intense. I probably wouldn't call it that, but something like that.

SPEAKER_02: 38:10

I have friends who do like their admin like monthly meeting, and my husband and I are both allergic to anything administrative. So we're like, oh no, we'll just we'll just deal with it when it comes into a crisis, which is not the best way to go about it. Zara, do you do an admin meeting?

SPEAKER_03: 38:25

We don't, but we also we're kind of in a strange position because my husband and I both work from home. So we are always like kind of in the same space and always like, you know, there's a lot of kind of time built in to just quickly catch up on things. But yeah, no, we don't have any kind of formal admin time.

SPEAKER_02: 38:44

You also have like really delineated um roles, it seems like, where, you know, even though you do work, you also kind of own the home stuff, or am I uh incorrect?

SPEAKER_03: 38:56

I would say the first year of parenting, it was more like that. Now it's not really. I would say we both kind of, but we do have like my husband makes breakfast every morning. That is his thing. I do dinner more than he does. He does it sometimes. But yeah, like I think there's sort of these natural rhythms that we have that keep things simple.

SPEAKER_01: 39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:15

I do think it's like when you're trying to make it exactly 50-50, I think sometimes you might need a little bit more admin. And we're both people who are a little bit more like, we'll just kind of fall into a rhythm. And if it feels like something's not working, we'll talk about it. And if not, let it be. Yeah. It's hard. That can feel like another. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

That can feel like another thing on the to-do to-do list, also. That's what makes it kind of hard. My um my friend is currently pregnant and she's a single mom by choice, so she's going through it by herself. And as a co-parenting single mom, um, I've been talking to her a lot throughout the process. And I, you know, it it's interesting because it's like I do feel very bl blessed that I have a co-parent and that I can split the time and I have time to myself. Like these literally the most ideal situation. But then I do think that I was saying to her is like, you really get to make all the decisions by yourself and like you don't have to run them by anybody. Like you can like do everything that feels right, and there's no one that's gonna tell you otherwise. And I'm like, that's pretty freaking awesome, actually, too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:15

I think Charlice Theron or Charlize Therone, however you say that was just on Caller Daddy talking about that. And yeah, where it's like you just get to do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

Yeah, exactly. Like, and I think there's a certain element of that, you know, even when you're co-parenting as a single mom when it's just you and your daughter. And I think, um, you know, when you have a new partner and like you kind of transition for away from being single mom into like, you know, having a step parent in the picture, it's interesting because then it's like, oh, I have to like consult, not consult, but like I have to have the conversation out loud about some of these things. And and it's funny because I say to Matt that like I actually haven't, I've been kind of like parenting before he came along because when it was just me, I was kind of parenting in like, I don't know, what would it be? Like emergency mode, where it was just basically like survival mode, kind of. I didn't get to do a lot of parenting with a capital P because, for example, perfect example is like, I don't know, she never, I never sleep trained her properly. Like she, right at the point at which I should have been really sleep training her, that's when I was getting divorced and that's when I was like discovering being a single mom. And I had a big old bed, literally. And so I was like, she wants to get in bed with me. Great, probably also it was nice. And you know, I just sort of let it slide. But of course, here she is, nine years old, and she still gets into bed in the middle of the night. And I'm like, I never fixed that. And like, I'm like, you know, it was really just whatever it took for a very long time. Um, so it's interesting too to kind of have a step parent that you know, my my my partner turn, you know, come into that sort of step-parenting role. Cause I'm like, oh wait, I have to, I have a little bit more of the luxury and time to parent with capital P or like talk about it. But also I'm like, oh no, I have to think about these things versus like just kind of firefighting.

SPEAKER_03: 41:58

My six-year-olds are in my bed every night. So I get it. And I was also the kid who's yeah, okay. Yeah, I was also the kid who was in my parents' bed until I was nine.

SPEAKER_02: 42:06

So yeah, it's all fine. I remember so I was in my mom's bed too until she got a new boyfriend when I was six. And he got me a new like bed, and I had never had my own bed just because like I'd always slept with her because she was a single mom. And I was so excited to have like my own. It was like a fold-up mattress, and I was like so pumped. So I wonder if you did something like get her new sheets, get her something like a canopy, like a princess bed. That for me, I was like, awesome. I'm gonna sleep there. And there was zero transition because I was so excited to have something special of my own. And it was how it was presented. It was like, look what we got for you. This is all yours, you know. So I don't know, might that might work.

SPEAKER_00: 42:47

That's clever. We're actually, so I've been to with um Matt now two years. So now we're talking about moving in together this winter. So that might be the moment. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:57

Whether it's bunk beds or whether it's I mean, and I say this as somebody who sleeps with my son every night, but we were gonna re-sleep train because we did properly sleep train him, and then he got COVID at two and a half, and then we went through a tough time and you know, like the whole thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:10

But I think the pandemic also it just threw everybody for a channel.

SPEAKER_02: 43:13

Yeah. But now we fight to sleep with him because we have an 18-year-old cat who's dying of lymphoma and cries all night. And so it's like we get better sleep with him than with our cat. And so I'm like, I'm not gonna sleep train until she passes, which we don't want her to pass. But when she passes, then we'll redo it because it's yeah, you know, we'll get him a bunk bed and do that whole transition.

SPEAKER_00: 43:34

If I was still a parent, I feel like there's more to be done around that the sandwich generation of having an elderly pet that was your first baby, and then also trying to parent young children while your pet is like very and then your parents are also dying. Just the whole mix.

SPEAKER_03: 43:49

Yeah, it's a whole lot. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the sandwich generation. I we have a lot to say about that. I have a friend who she is a physician who specializes in geriatrics, and we've actually talked a lot about trying to create something for the sandwich generation because it's real. Her experience, my experience, we're both kind of going through it. Yeah. Yeah. Lots to talk about. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

Yeah, absolutely. And like how much, you know, you're able to kind of tap your parents for when you have, you know, aging parents and it comes to being a grandparent. Like it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 44:23

Mm-hmm. I'm curious to hear kind of how your work has affected your parenting. I mean, did you go into parenting thinking that you could kind of anticipate everything that the experience would throw your way?

SPEAKER_00: 44:35

Oh, it's so funny. My OBGOIN was like, um, do you have any questions? You never have any questions. You're like my calmest patient I've ever had. And I'm like, well, that's funny because I work at parents.com at the pregnancy, and I like I actually don't have a lot of questions because like I do this all day for a living is I is asked the questions. And, you know, I think you really realize working in the parenting space, as I kind of was saying before, that certainly in pregnancy, there's really not a lot to do other than like take your prenatal and like wait. You know, and obviously there's more to it than that, but like same thing with parenting. Like, there's a lot of there's a lot of really interesting philosophical um articles around like the concept of parenting and like how much influence your parenting style or how you parent actually has. And that's probably a lot less than we even realize. Like the context of birth, I think of what context that they're they're born into is probably the majority of it. So, like again, I think that there is you have less control over any of it than you realize. And I think I realize that going, going in a little bit where I realized that there's actually not a lot that you can do to influence anything, you know, your how you raise your child one way or the other, other than like obviously doing the basics you're gonna do anyway is like read and hug and love and all that stuff and feed them. But um, you know, I think there's so much that, and also the fact that they're going to be so their own human that like you really can't, there's probably like not a lot you can necessarily even really do to prepare yourself. So I guess like the one thing I always said you could be an expert on parenting as a beat, but nobody's an expert in being a parent. Period.

unknown: 46:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:07

And that's because like we can have you can do all the research and you can do all the reading up and you can do all the the sort of like theoretical preparation. And it doesn't prepare you for the fact that they're gonna ask you about sex when you're driving and stressed to like drop off. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't prepare you for the fact that these moments are gonna come when you least expect them. And it doesn't, and you just don't know, even know. And I think I always say like pregnant starting with pregnancy and trying to conceive. It wasn't, you know, it's it's I struggled a little bit trying to conceive. And I think that's like the first, the first moment that like really teaches you that you have as you know, far less control, if any, than than you realize. And parenting is about like that mindfulness and realizing that you really don't have a lot of control. And that's freaking terrifying because when you become a parent, you want all the control. And I remember when my daughter was born, and that that I'm sure you guys had that same feeling where you're like, fuck, like my heart and everything I care about in the whole entire world is like outside of my body right now. And what the fuck? I said to my mom, what in the hospital, I was like, this is terrifying. This feeling is awful. Like I I have like everything I care about is like not in my control anymore. And it's just and my mom's like, that does not change. Hello. Hi, I'm she's like, I'm experiencing now that now as your mother. And so it's like, it's become like a it becomes an exercise, and like, you know, it's almost like Buddhist or mindful. Like you just have to kind of accept that the one consistency in parenting is that lack of that lack of control or having less control than you even realize, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 47:38

Yeah, there's no control. There's none. I'm like trying, I'm like, if and if you try to control it or try to control your kid, it's just gonna get worse. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:46

And a lot of what we think is parenting is that concept of like being able to control it. And you can only do so much. You have to, you can set the platform of love and reading and hugging and all the stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 47:58

And after that, you kind of have to and the rules are always changing. Like the the guidance is always changing. The ideas about what makes a good parent are always changing. I remember at Parents, there was a story about how we have to differentiate between a snack and a treat in our kids. I don't know if you remember that one, but it was like you have to teach your kids the difference between a snack and a treat. And now it's like, don't call anything a treat. What? Haven't heard of the eating like serve the dessert with the dinner. I think it's kind of calmed down a little bit, but it's like serve dessert with dinner. Don't tell them they can't have more cookies. Yeah. You know, raising intuitive eaters. Don't say you have to eat your broccoli before you eat your ice cream, that kind of thing. There was a moment in time where everything felt like it had to be scripted, and that drove me nuts. Yes. Yeah. Because I'm just like agreed.

SPEAKER_02: 48:42

Okay. Like takes the fun out of it. Like, and you can't just like last night. I just like started meowing to my son to get him to bed, and he just curled right into bed and got in and curled up like a cat. And like, I'm like, where's the parenting book that tells you to do that? And it's just like instead, I just decided to start meowing.

SPEAKER_00: 49:01

You know, like sometimes just like have fun with it. Absolutely. And I think that's really true. And I I remember when I was a parent too, I was like, it's very easy to suck the joy out of parenting and like get it is important to kind of get back to why you wanted to do this in the first place. And I think a lot of it was like, you know, just finding joy in those moments, even when it's hard. Yeah. And it is really hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 49:23

Was there anything for both of you, since this is what you write about and what you've been kind of entrenched with that really shocked you about parenthood, where you were like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00: 49:34

I feel like I get shocked by things in parenthood every single day. Okay. So it still happens, even though you both are like professionals in this space. I know you're not experts, but you've seen it all. I kind of feel like true. Like, I think it that's what I mean. Like, I think like you can be as prepared as you as you possibly can be, and like it can still throw you for a loop. But and every age and every moment is different. And like every age and every moment has its hard parts and you know, its easier parts, but it's it that's I think what's been so surprising is just that like it can really change. Like it does get better, at least in my experience, I think, but it doesn't in some ways also like it also brings like separate new challenges every with every age, too. So yeah, always learning.

SPEAKER_03: 50:17

Yeah. I think I was the most shocked by this is a little this a little dark, but how much our system and our society hates moms. I think that's been the most shocking thing to me. And kids, they also hate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:32

And how invisible you're expected to be. And I think what's just been the hardest is that I I always the juggle is so hard no matter what. And I think like a lot of the I work now work fully remotely, which is great. And post-pandemic, I think there's been a lot in favor of like flexibility with parenthood. But I don't know, like sometimes I had for a moment I had my own office and then we before we went fully remote. And I actually liked that because I could like go to my office, close the door, and it had nothing to do with me being a mom. It was just me at work. And now that I'm fully remote again, like the it's all gray and muddled to together again. And, you know, I'll be home and I'll be like, oh shoot, maybe I should also fold the laundry while I'm like, you know, getting a coffee or whatever. And like the mental load seeps back back in. So I don't really, I don't know what the answer is there because I do know that it's nice to be remote for all the obvious reasons. But I think it's that feeling that like you're never good and I I really struggle with every day. And that's what doesn't really go away, is that feeling of like not being good enough at my job and not feeling good enough as a mom. When knowing that I'm like rocking both, you know, it I know that in my logical brain, but it's hard not to feel like with that juggle that you're just kind of sucking at you're spreading yourself thinly, and you can feel like you're kind of sucking at both when I'm juggled both. Yeah, I feel that.

SPEAKER_02: 51:49

Sucking at everything. It's like and sucking at friendship. Like I have friends who aren't parents and I don't get back to them because that they're not in my everyday orbit of like, I, you know. And then I'm like, fuck, I love them. I just don't like it's like not in that way.

SPEAKER_00: 52:05

Yeah, it can really make you feel like you suck at everything. That sounds dark, but it's true.

SPEAKER_02: 52:10

Um, I have some questions about like the how you're managing like the ADHD diagnosis and like how that has been with co-parenting, because I've heard that is it 80%? I don't know, there's a stat around it. I don't have the stat here, but where people who have a child with autism or ADHD, like somebody on the spectrum at all, um, are more likely to get divorced. And I know you your daughter was so young, so I'm sure that didn't show up back then. But how has it been? I mean, yeah, co-parenting through this, like trying to figure it out this diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00: 52:43

Are you all on the same page? Oh God, it's hard. I can imagine I can see why that might happen because it is a lot and it's very taxing. And I think like it's a moment when I think when we've been the most fraught about like how we both stand with parenting, you know, there's still a lot of stigma, I think, around like different diagnoses and like working through that on both sides. And um, but also it's like amped up the mental load to like a huge degree. Because I mean, for example, my one at my ex's work, like at some one one woman he spoke to took three months off work to like get her head around all the school stuff, and people really do that, which I'm like, but then it also is extremely expensive. Like, oh, it's just nutty, at least in real city. Oh. So if you want to send them to a special school that directly supports the kind of learning disabilities that she has, they're really only private schools, and you have to sue the Department of Education to be able to go. It's a nutty process. Uh, if you do want to go down that route, and and you still have to like front the tuition, but if you're and then get reimbursed. And some of these schools are like$90,000 a year.

SPEAKER_01: 53:48

I mean, it's just it's just nutty.

SPEAKER_00: 53:52

So financially, it can be extremely stressful. And then also on top of that, when you have to kind of like deal with all the other sides of it and like whether, you know, what point you're like, is this worth it? Is it not? Um, I think we're gonna give her public school another year trying before we do anything dire like that. Not to say that it's people do it, and but it's it's and there are different pla payment plans and various ways to do it, but yeah. Is Waldorf school that expensive too? Well, it's funny, a lot of these private schools, special needs private schools are even more expensive than regular private schools because of like the fact that they have to be smaller classrooms and more teachers. That's like kind of at the the Orton Gillingham approach, is like the the way that the the teaching method around um back to pedagogy. There you go. And it's expensive because it's like, you know, they they expect like at least like two, I think it's like ratio of like six kids to one teacher is like the ideal ratio, and like there's it's just expensive. So um it's a tough one. So I can understand why, because it's not just not only you have to like agree on parenting and you get over the stigma, and not only that, but like you also have to be prepared for some like extra finances and orthodontist stuff starts earlier now, too. So I'm like, oh Jesus, I'm like, I'm like hitting all the expensive part. The expensive part of parenting starts earlier than I was a day prepared for me. I was very unprepared with how you get a break. Okay. Because in theory, if your kid goes to public school, then you get a break. Well, we had 4K, universal 4K in thank you. What is that in New York City? Oh, it's free, free pre-K for from four in York City. So the free pre-K started in four for me, and then they even have 3K. So like for some people in New York, it can start from three. Oh, that's but then so you get a little bit of a financial break, but then like the more hard, there's this like the more expensive stuff starts flooding in later on.

SPEAKER_02: 55:46

Yeah. Well, and then you also have to parent around medication. And I mean, this is something that even when you're married, like, do you use neosporin? Do you use Motran or Tylenol? Like all of these, do you give them Zertech? You know, there are so many things that come up that you're not anticipating with your parent. And even if you're parenting co-parenting with um, like as a married spouse, you're gonna have different things. So, like I imagine with ADHD, how has that been?

SPEAKER_00: 56:11

Oh, yeah, but talking about the stigma and yeah, all of that. Um, again, that's where I've been very blessed to have um my partner, Matt. And he's just he's been through a lot of this, you know, and he understands that the the journey. And like he's just been very educated on the different medications and he's like done a lot of the research. And so he's been able to kind of like really share a lot of that, which has been very helpful. Um, because my ex-husband is British, so there's another part of that where he, you know, it's very different over there. Um, and so he's coming from a very different context. Um, so yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not easy. It's not easy. And I so when you say that stat about people getting divorced after, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm I can see that. My incorrect stat. I'm I'll you know what? I'm gonna pull it up right now because uh how I would not be surprised. I mean, I uh it's a challenge. It would be like one of those like hard moments of parenting. I mean, even the neuropsych, it's all so expensive. It's that's what's nutty. That's been the most shocking, I'd say, for me lately, is just how expensive it all is. Like, you know, you to get a neuropsych assessment, you your insurance doesn't really necessarily reimburse it. And like our more affordable one was still$4,000. But like Child Bine Institute was quoting us$8,000 for a neuropsych assessment where they basically give you the diagnosis and everything else. I mean, it's just I just keep thinking about so many kids out there who don't have the parents who are gonna advocate, advocate for them, or the parents who can even like imagine spending something like that. And I mean, I barely can. But like, you know, and I always think that the kids that need these these things the most are clearly not gonna be getting it. You know, there's still just the financial and ex access disparity that that is is just must be happening. So on the one hand, going through it myself, I'm like, it's a lot, but I'm like, oh god, imagine all the kids who are falling through the crack. I mean, like cracks, like it's just yeah, it's wild.

SPEAKER_03: 58:09

And it'll definitely get worse.

SPEAKER_00: 58:11

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Well, there is that. Yes, there's no hope. That's hard. Yeah, that's hard. That's been really hard is to keep the hope.

SPEAKER_03: 58:20

Yeah, it's also it's really hard to parent when things are kind of falling apart around you.

SPEAKER_00: 58:26

Oh, yeah, and also just like worrying about their future and everything else. It's just, yeah, it's a big old mess. That's a lot. The mental load is loaded these days.

SPEAKER_03: 58:35

To that point, I don't feel like there are as many resources or as much content around parenting, like big kids. You know, I feel like there's a lot about parenting a newborn or a baby or a toddler, but there's just not a ton out there about school-aged kids and even teens.

SPEAKER_00: 58:53

Yeah. And like exactly, like I think teens and even like, yeah, I there really felt like at parents, we we would kind of like follow the traffic a little bit. So there's a lot of search around like baby and pregnancy, and then it would kind of taper off. But like sometimes I think that's because people don't even know it's it's so niche. Like when you have a baby and you're pregnant, you have like things that everyone worries about, right? Like, what's that, you know, what's the kind of anatomy scan gonna be like, or like, how do you, you know, how do you uh baby led weaning and these sort of big moments? But like when as they get older, it just gets more complex and more nuanced that like you realize it's like very hard to ask Chat GPT or have a site that can answer all the questions that you're going to do.

SPEAKER_02: 59:38

Emily Osters has her chat bot apparently works well, and I haven't used it, but okay. I found the rates. I found the rates. It's uh nearly twice as many parents of ADHD children had divorced by the time the child was eight. The study showed. And this is from 2008, so it's a bit old, so I imagine it's changed, but it said 22 points about 23% of parents with ADHD children divorced by the time the child was eight versus 12.5% of children who did not have ADHD. Um, but this is from 2008, so I think that number has increased.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:12

If I'm I I just can't find it right now, but yeah, so it's it's double the amount. Well, that makes total sense. I mean, it does make sense to me. It does feel like parenting in hard mode. And in fact, having the diagnosis has been validating in that way because it's just been like, oh, okay. I knew it was hard. I mean, parenting's always hard. But like I knew that there were things that were just like extra challenging. And I think especially for the child, like they talk about how when they're at school, it can feel like paddling upriver or like really trying, you know, every it's it's just everything is 10 times harder. So often they'll come home and like have a real emotional letdown because they're like mass challenged at school and masking. So, you know, and and they'll in general in parenting, like the more comfortable your kid is, the more they're gonna sometimes like treat you like crap too, you know? It's not easy. So I think I can only imagine if you had, you know, if you struggled in your relationship and then you add to that something like this, which can feel very, very hard. It's um it's not for the it's not for the faint-hearted.

unknown: 1:01:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:13

And so I don't have ADHD, but I have many, many symptoms of it because trauma and ADHD kind of mirror each other. And so um, I when I'm talking about, oh, Waldorf and all these things, it's because I have all of these things and I did not do well in a typical setting or a typical corporate setting. So there is hope for your daughter. She just needs to be in a creative, yes, explorer environment. Because, like so many of the kids I know who went through the system the entire time, like one of them is a harpist who's married to Andy Samberg. And you know, like they're you know, there's like so if you foster those things and if they're allowed to foster them, they can really care.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:51

Yeah. I know. And I just hope that like the public school system continues to kind of fund and support children who think differently and need that creativity. Cause that's what I find the hardest is the fact that it's like private schools are nailing it, but like public schools still have a lot of work to do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:07

Well, and no one can afford anything, like can't afford eggs versus a$90,000 school bill. Like I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:14

Oh, it's not it's not yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:17

Well, I know we're coming up on time here, and we do like to ask a couple of questions toward the end. So if what's the best I'm gonna change this one a little bit because you've talked a lot about advice. What's the best piece of advice you got from a friend or throughout your time parenting? What's the best piece of parenting advice you've gotten?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:35

Um the best piece of parenting advice um is probably just not to listen to advice. Or just like, you know, it's just not um every single kid is different. And that's been the biggest lesson in parenting. And I think, you know, my mom and my my friends who've just been the kind of friends were like, you know, don't don't listen to what everyone else thinks. Like, do what's in your heart and do what's in your gut. You're your gut is is what's right most of the time. So trying to kind of filter out the noise, I think is the best advice I've heard. That's great advice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:15

I need to listen to that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:17

Yeah. We we had Emily Oster on, and I asked her if she thinks there's one thing parents worry about too much, and she goes, everything? Yeah. Yeah. Sounds about right. Um, but is there a part of parenthood that's brought you unexpected joy? Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:33

It's also the freaking best. Like, I I think like eight, nine is there's it is a wonderful, a wonderful age. And I think the fact when you can kind of go out to eat and like have a conversation with your your child, and you're almost like you you start to feel that you're that much closer to like being kind of on the same page and being able to kind of actually have it like an interesting conversation, that's been like the very special. And um, yeah. And I think like as a single mom of a daughter, that just having that that bond is there's like nothing quite like it. So I've been like very happy in there, that respect too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:14

That's awesome. Yeah, seeing seeing also when kids start talking to their friends and having like real conversations, it's really cool to watch. But yeah, I love that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're there, you're in there. Okay, you're coming out.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:28

And then you can eavesdrop on them, or like if if if I overhear my daughter playing Barbies too, because I can also hear her like kind of work out a lot of things that are going on in her life through the like pretend play. I love doing that too. I love I love eavesdropping. Eavesdropping, there we go. That's like one of the things that's brought that is fun. That's a super fun dropping on my daughter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:50

Well, thank you so much. This has been so fun. And yeah, it's I feel like it it you have like such a story of hope for people who might be going through something really tough right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:00

Oh, yes. Like I, you know, it gets better. Everything gets better. I I think like, you know, you learn from from your past and you can seek out more positive future in parenting. And like you know, when things are hard, it changes. Everything changes. I think that's another piece of advice I've had in the past. It's like if something's really hard right now, all you know is that it consistency has changed. Like it's gonna, it's gonna be different and it won't last forever in this moment. So, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:27

And unfortunately, that's true about the good things too, right? It's like, oh, this is so amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:32

Oh yeah, but I do think it just gets better and better. Like, I'm not somebody that's overly nostalgic for like her baby days. Mm-hmm. No, every day I I think it gets more exciting for me. So, yeah. I feel that same way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:45

Zara, do you feel like that too?

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:48

You know, I really miss the baby days. Some people are like that. That's okay. Like, I think it's some people are just different that way. But it's, you know, every phase is I think I'm just kind of a person who's very nostalgic. But like my my kids were they're learning to read and write now, and they were like off in the corner, and they both wrote me letters completely on their own a few days ago. And I was like, oh, this is that's it, actually does really get better and more fun just in different ways. Yeah, different ways. Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:15

That's so cute. Well, thank you so much for being here. It's been awesome. And thank you for the time. And we know you're super busy with everything you have going on. And once it all gets sorted, we want to have you back. Once you get everything sorted with school and the diagnosis and everything, so we can give people more hope. Like once everything is sorted, it's never, it was never sorted.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:36

Well, once you do the Department of Education, we want to we wanna hopefully it doesn't get to that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:42

Yeah. No, this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.