The Truth About: The Divorce Hype Team

In this episode, we sit down with Olivia Howell, CEO and co-founder of Fresh Starts, the world’s first divorce registry and divorce education platform, to talk honestly about divorce, emotional abuse, financial control, and what women actually need before, during, and after separation.

Olivia shares her personal story of leaving an emotionally abusive marriage, becoming a single mother of two, and rebuilding her life — not through shame or secrecy, but through support, education, and community. We unpack why emotional abuse is often invisible, how gaslighting and financial control slowly erode self-trust, and why so many women don’t recognize abuse until years into a relationship.

We also explore why divorce is one of the most misunderstood life transitions, especially for mothers. Olivia explains why “just leave” advice is often dangerous, how lack of access to money keeps women stuck, and why divorce education is frequently gatekept behind legal and financial barriers.

This episode covers:

• Financial abuse, surveillance, and control inside marriage
• How Fresh Starts connects women to divorce coaches, financial analysts, mediators, and co-parenting support
• Why divorce isn’t a failure — but a transition that can lead to stability and clarity and an amazing co-parenting relationship

This conversation is essential listening for anyone navigating divorce, separation, emotional abuse, financial independence, single motherhood, or co-parenting, as well as friends and family who want to better support someone going through it.

divorce podcast, emotional abuse, financial abuse in marriage, divorce support for women, single motherhood, life after divorce, co-parenting, divorce education, gaslighting, domestic inequity, married single mom, women and divorce, abusive relationships, Fresh Starts divorce, divorce recovery, modern motherhood, coparenting

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Olivia And Fresh Starts
• 3:13 Choosing Not To Date After Divorce
• 6:58 Emotional Abuse And Healing
• 12:48 Domestic Inequity And Motherload
• 20:18 Co‑Parenting Across State Lines
• 24:58 Rethinking Gender Roles And Rituals
• 32:08 The Birth Of A Divorce Registry
• 39:38 Education, Experts, And Access
• 46:28 Safety, Surveillance, And Finances
• 53:48 Growing Apart And Money Dynamics

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:57

Olivia, welcome to the pod. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 0:59

I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

And for our listeners who might not, and we're excited for you to be here, by the way, just skipped over that. For our listeners who might not know who you are, can you tell them a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_03: 1:13

Yeah, um, I am the CEO and co-founder of Fresh Starts, which is the world's first divorce registry and divorce education platform. And my background is in marketing and social media, but we spend a lot of our time connecting people to divorce professionals. That's what I spend most of my day doing. And then we support the divorce professionals in their business development. So it's a little bit of support for everybody. Um, I'm a single mom of two tween boys, which is a whole other episode. And uh I live on Long Island and I'm pretty goofy and I'm a huge Muppet lover.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50

Muppet, like Jason Siegel Muppet? Like traditional Muppets, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:54

Okay, like Jim Hanson.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Yeah, Jim Hansen.

SPEAKER_03: 1:57

Did you see the Miss Piggy movie stuff? Have you seen it? I did. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_01: 2:02

With Jennifer Lawrence. Wait, what is this? I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

They're gonna do a Miss Piggy movie. Yeah. Yeah, they need a new Muppet movie. It's been some time.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Um, I'll probably cut this out, but one of my girlfriends dated Jason and went to his house, and there was a like a whole Muppet room, and yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:20

I actually had a friend that dated him too. A lot of people have had connections to him.

SPEAKER_02: 2:24

A lot of people. Yeah. Did they meet in AA too?

SPEAKER_03: 2:27

Yeah, no, it was a long time ago when she was a little too young for him, probably. Uh, and so yeah, interesting fell off for sure.

unknown: 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:35

And you have been divorced for six years, is that? Six years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

And Zara just sent me something that you have been out of the dating world for six years, celibate, no kissing. Nothing. I'm curious about that. I know Zara is too.

unknown: 2:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:51

I'm happy to talk about it. It's something that I'm sure my parents don't love that I talk about on the internet, but I also wrote about my period in New York magazine. So they're my parents were like, great, just don't tell us anymore when you do things. Yeah, I had a lot of healing to do after my divorce, and I really was not ready to do anything along the lines of anything. I had no interest in sitting across the table at a date. I couldn't imagine myself, you know, being physically intimate with somebody. I was in a very emotionally abusive marriage. And we I do a lot of education, and if you go to my Instagram, a lot of it is about emotional abuse because we don't talk about the way that it really, you know, cuts you down physically, mentally. Uh, and so I, you know, I haven't, I didn't really openly talk about the fact that I hadn't dated. And then I saw that there was a woman that came out with a book and she hadn't had sex for a year. And I said, bay, I was like, I was like, uh, I'm going on six. And you know what I hasn't really for me been a big issue because I've had so many other things to focus on, and I've done a lot of work on myself, and you know, my my kids really needed me. Obviously, that's not true. Everybody has a different trajectory, but um, I wasn't ready, and I want people to see that. And the more that I talk about it, the more other women are like, Oh, thank you for saying this, because I'm not ready and I don't want to date. And I'm like, you don't have to, like, there's no rules.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Isn't there a stat about like women, if they get divorced, like not getting remarried? Whereas men, it's like 90% will get remarried or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 4:31

A lot more, a lot more men jump into relationships very quickly. My ex-husband got married quickly, um, again, and a lot of them do, and a lot of women, you know, have relationships afterwards too, which is fine. My parents got divorced when I was 10, and my mom met my stepdad pretty quickly, and he's 30 years later still my stepdad. So, you know, sometimes things are meant to be, but for me, I knew that I just, you know, so much of uh relationship is what both people obviously bring into it. And while I don't want to place myself in like a, you know, I was part of the abusive situation, I was a codependent person, right? I was a people pleaser, I still am a people pleaser. I'm the oldest daughter. I went through my own stuff. And so I didn't want to bring that into any other relationship that I started. And I knew that as soon as I started a relationship with another guy, I'd be like, what do you need? How can I help? Can I bend over back in every single way to make your life better? And that's not where I am now, and uh, you know, in a sense. And so I'm excited to like let the world see who this person is, not that person.

SPEAKER_00: 5:43

I love that you know yourself well enough to know that, and that you can like identify that that's what you need because I think people have so many opinions, and I'm sure after you get out of a marriage, you hear a lot of like, oh, you'll find someone else, or like, oh, it's time to get back out there, and you know what's best for you.

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

Thank you. I appreciate that. I've done a lot of work. I had a therapist who was wonderful during the divorce and after. I'm pretty woo and have done a lot of healing things, you know, stuff like that. But I also just I really enjoy having no drama from dating. Like I don't have to pick up my phone and go, like, did they text? Did they did it? You know, it's like I can just I get in bed at night, I watch TV, I'm calm. Like, I don't, you know, and I I miss flirting, but that's pretty much the extent of it. It's like, okay, you know, uh, it's also hard to find guys that can flirt really well. So, you know, but yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I think that's the beautiful part of the growth after divorce. If you give yourself a little time, you do find out who you are. How long were you married? I was married for eight years, about eight years. Yeah. We were together for about 10.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

And you got married really young, right? Because when you were divorced like 34.

SPEAKER_03: 6:55

Yeah, I was we met when I was 24 online on match.com, and then we got married when I was 26. I had my first son when I was about 28. Wow and then it was right before I think I was 34 when we separated. Yeah. So um That's a lot to go through. It was, and I changed careers during that time. My grandmother passed away. It was like a lot, a lot. And when you're with somebody that's emotionally manipulative, the world revolves around them also, right? So it's like constant running around them. I was the primary parent. I did everything. I remember back, you know, I went into marriage very much intending to stay married. I came from a huge line of divorce. Everybody in my family is divorced. My grandparents, my parents. I wanted to be married forever. And I remember having this wake-up call one day and to my Facebook group of mom friends. I posted, like, does anybody else like do everything in their house and marriage and kids? And people were like, What do you mean everything? And I was like, you know, the dishes, the laundry, the kids, the this. People were like, Why is he not helping with that? I'm like, he just doesn't. Like, and I'm I and then I realized, well, why am I not asking? Is the question. And it's because the response I was getting was not very kind or friendly. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:20

Were you also working full-time?

SPEAKER_03: 8:22

Uh-huh. Yeah. So um yeah. I was uh no, that's a great question. So I was a teacher, I was a middle school teacher when we met. Um, I was a middle school teacher for most of my 20s, which I loved. I really loved teaching. And then I had my oldest son, who's now 12, and my parents and my sister watched him all day while I was working. And then, you know, it just got too much for me. I was like, this is a lot. And so I have been a freelance writer for most of my adult life and decided, and I I will give credit to my ex-husband. He was very supportive. Now I see it's because he probably wanted me at home, but that's a different story. Um, supportive of me starting my own business. So I started a marketing agency and literally was with my son all day. He would come with me to meetings and I'd pitch people, and um, then I started doing social media and then I started doing PR. And so I did that. Um, and so I was growing a business and I had clients. Like I was uh working with Katie Courick and I would like come home. Yeah, I mean, it was great, but like the funny thing is like I would go and I would film stuff and I would do these things and then come home and have to put the kids to bed and make dinner. And like, you know, and so I was um literally, I, you know, when my second son was born, I had had the an agency full-fledged by that point. I was answering emails from labor and delivery. Like I was just that, you know, I had no help in the business. I was so burnt out. Like that, and that's part of the the healing process is like I I'm still tired from a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:57

Yeah. How do you when your ex managed to figure out a co-parenting relationship?

SPEAKER_03: 10:02

That's a good question. So he actually lives out of state. So I have my kids all the time, which is like a whole other you have a hundred percent custody?

SPEAKER_02: 10:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 10:11

Of uh joint of physical. So we have joint legal, yeah. So um for people that are listening that may not know what that means, physical custody is where the kids live, and then legal custody is the decision making about their education and health and religion and things. And so he moved back. I'm from New York, I'm from Long Island, which is where we were. He moved back to um Illinois, to Chicago, where his family was from, and um, he got married and had another child, and he's you know, happy. And um, so I have my kids all the time. And so I think it was it was hard for my friends to understand. Like, I can't just go out on a date. Like, I can't bring people back to my house. I I'm with my kids 24-7. Uh, I work from home now, you know. So yeah, um, but co-parenting uh with somebody out of state is interesting. And I've had to my kids were were two and five when we split up, and so they each have their own iPads and they FaceTime him and call him whatever they want. Now they text with him, so it's great. Um, but you know, it's a different type of uh parenting relationship for sure. Do they miss him like physically? Not that they've expressed to me. No. Interesting, you know, and like again, I was always the parent that was the parent.

SPEAKER_01: 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 11:32

So, you know, he was he was there, um, and they have great memories of him. Um, but everything, every bedtime, every bath, every diaper was me. You know, and it's interesting. The more I talk about it, the more other women are like, yeah, I'm in that situation, but I didn't know that it was unusual.

SPEAKER_01: 11:51

So I don't think it's that unusual based on who I have spoken to. It's actually pretty common. Zara, I don't know if you have the same experience. I know you personally don't, but like in talking to other moms.

SPEAKER_00: 12:05

I think less in talking to other moms and more on social media. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:11

Yeah, I was watching this guy on TikTok this morning talk about Gone Girl and like how it was actually a really good video, but he was talking about how millennial women were sold a bill of goods that was like, you're gonna have an egalitarian marriage, it's gonna be 50-50. I think we all walk into it thinking that way. And then, I mean, it is just not, it can't be like if you're birthing a child, like yeah, physically can't be. But I think when you're like that intersection of girl boss and you know, then growing up through that, and you're like, fuck, now I'm doing everything. And you know, feminism forgot to take that last step of making the men socializing the men to do things from the beginning, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 12:51

I agree with you, and I think there's a whole other element that people don't talk about. And I've just started talking about it, and the reaction is big, which is how it impacts your sex life. And you know, you cannot be a soft sexual woman when you are doing all of that. And I I know I always say it's like you just become kind of sexless, like you become like just this being. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror, like, I look like a like a monster. Like, not not even in a scary way, just like this doesn't look like me, like this doesn't feel like me. I mean, I had a I do a lot of like this short form writing that I'll put out on social, and I was looking back on it the other day, and I had a piece I wrote about how I used to like kind of want to get sick just so I could like go to the hospital for a nap. Like I was so tired, I didn't know how else to express that. And there's um there's like a double bind that you're in because you can't really ask for help because you get a negative reaction and then you're not getting the help you need.

SPEAKER_01: 13:48

Also, you don't want to have to ask for help. Like you just want somebody to do it, and then if they don't do it right, then you're like, but why are you doing it like this? You know that you know that they don't eat milk or or whatever it is, and it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:01

It shouldn't be help. It should just be, you know, partnering and being a parent, right? It's like I think there's so much of this on social media too, where it's like, I don't make my husband help me. I was like, well, you're thinking of it as helping in the first place. So that's that's the first problem.

SPEAKER_03: 14:17

Yeah, 100%. And I was definitely sold a bill of goods that was not what I thought because my ex was raised by his parents were married, but his dad was essentially a stay-at-home dad. And so I was like, Great, this is gonna be great. Like he's gonna be so ready to do this. And I think I think a lot of it is that a lot of these millennial men were also like really mothered in a different type of way. And uh, you know, so they show up as husbands. Nobody taught them how to be husbands, and we were conditioned to be wives from the time that we were born. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

For me, I I'm a little bit more on the husband, like like I am just learning how to cook, I'm just learning how to clean, like all these things. But when it came to mothering, I think it was just like, you just had to, like, he came out of my body, and like I'm feeding him from my body. And um, yeah, I think it it is so different, and I don't think it's talked about enough where you're actually taking two, especially as we're getting, you got married young, but as we many of us are having kids later and getting married later, you're taking two fully formed beings, putting them in a house together, and like you can have all the conversations you want, and like it doesn't matter because you don't know how you're gonna it makes me think of those ISR, you know, those swimming things where they like throw them in the water and they have to get to the edge, but it can't actually replicate what it's like to be panicked when you fall in. It's like it reminds me of that. Like you can have all the conversations you want, but it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03: 15:43

And this is why I have a big issue with people saying that women should have picked better because you don't know. You don't know who you picked. I thought I picked the perfect half Jewish hippie bluegrass musician that was gonna give me the exact family I wanted. And when you're in the thick of it, that is not how people respond. Right? You don't know what people are gonna do when the baby's crying for three days nonstop, right?

SPEAKER_01: 16:05

So it's like you don't know and they don't hear it at all, and it doesn't wake them up at all.

SPEAKER_03: 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:11

Yeah. And like something that I have also been working on personally, I don't know how y'all feel about this, is like I used to blame like this is the guy's fault. But if you look at it systemically, it is like from the moment we are born, we are taught a certain thing. I I'm a little bit different because I was taught like not to be a mom, all of that, but like they're just not taught those things. And and then you throw them in and people are like, oh, well, your coworker is on the first day starting a new job, which is technically true, but women have been socialized so much more to caregive and you know, the emotional part too, the emotional labor. We we've been socialized to do that where they haven't, and it's not to give them a pass, it's just like they're learning a new skill. Like how I it's taken me a year, and I'm just like starting to get okay at cooking.

SPEAKER_00: 17:00

Yeah, I I just read a really interesting piece about the dachler parties. Have you guys heard of these? How so a lot of men, I guess, are going on bachelor parties before they have a baby, which is like their last hurrah of like, you know, this is my fun before I have a baby. Whereas with women, right, we're having a baby shower where we're being prepared for the role. It's not this like, oh, this is your last moment of freedom, like the men have. It's we're gonna prepare you with all the stuff you need and we're gonna get you ready to take on this responsibility. And it was a really interesting take. I'll send it to both of you. Wait, we're interested in what do they do? Is it like a baby moon, but for dads? Guess it's probably more like a bachelor party, like more of a guy's trip vibe. Okay. Yeah. Hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 17:47

It is weird. I've never thought about that. They that men like Arnett, I didn't have baby showers or any, you know, wedding shower, any of that stuff. But it is weird that it's just the women and men, and like they so they don't even know what they got in the red, like just even from that, it just sets it up to be completely disconnected. Not again, not to give people passes.

SPEAKER_00: 18:07

Yeah. We had a couple shower and people thought that was really weird.

SPEAKER_03: 18:10

We did too, and it was people, yeah. We had like a family, it was like all the families, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:15

People thought it was weird. Uh-huh. Hmm. I had so many people text me in the weeks leading up to it, like, wait, is it a mistake that my husband was invited to, or can I bring him? Or people yeah, people were very thrown off by it.

SPEAKER_01: 18:27

Well, that's what I I've never heard of a couple shower. So, okay, so it's both partners, and then everyone, so it's kind of like a little bit like a a little wedding ceremony type of a thing or community.

SPEAKER_03: 18:37

Maybe for for my wedding shower was women, but my baby shower was was both. So I really like that. Yeah, it was more like a party. I I'm I didn't I was superstitious too, so I didn't want to have a traditional baby shower. Um, and so we had like a big family party and it was it was fun. Like I don't even really consider it like a shower in a way. Um, we did get presents, but yeah, and I think that I just think a lot of men don't understand, right? We don't we don't teach them to understand what having a baby is like. I mean, we barely understand it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:10

We don't teach us either. Like I didn't know it was so dangerous to have a child.

SPEAKER_03: 19:15

No.

SPEAKER_01: 19:17

Um so with your platform to help women, you know, go through divorce and all of this. Um how does that how does that work? Because I really love the idea. It reminds me of Sex in the City where they where Carrie had her uh what was it? Like a single party. Yeah, the shoe. For her, yep. Because she she wasn't gonna get married and somebody stole her shoes. And I it it reminds me of that. Oh, I do remember that.

SPEAKER_03: 19:43

Yeah, that is we yeah, we hear that a lot. And it was definitely uh an impetus for this. Um, yeah, so I was getting divorced and um we lived in a house. We, you know, we owned a house together. We separated in April of 2019. We decided to get divorced, and then he didn't move out till August, so we which is really common. People live together. We call it shadow cohabitation, which is like short-term living together in the same place, kind of both, you know, like dormates, I guess. Really, really common because where are people gonna go? And when he moved out in August, my sister and her then fiance came over and we cleaned out the house, we got rid of all the, you know, stuff. He um had had a music studio in the house, and literally like guitars were ripped off the wall. Like it was like, you know, it was just it was a ghost town. And I remember looking around and everything else was like, the sheets from my wedding registry with our monogram and like all these things. And I had this aha moment, and I was like, I need new things now. Like I had a wedding registry, baby registry, but like this is when I want to start fresh and rebuild. And so I jotted this down in my journal, and I said, I want to start a divorce registry for fresh starts, and I Googled I was like, there's gotta be something, right? Some sort of divorce registry. And there wasn't. The only things were articles from like Vogue and Elle that were like, why is there not a divorce registry to rebuild after divorce? And I'm like, yeah, why is there not one? And I called my sister, and at the time we were not even working together. This was pre-pandemic. This was right before the pandemic. So she was in big tech events. So she was on the road like half the year. And then she would come home and she was in Queens and I was on Long Island and she would come spend time with her nephews, but we were not working together. But I would, I was always begging her to come to my marketing agency because she's much smarter than me in so many ways. And um I called her. I said, I think we should start this company. And she was like, she was engaged to be married at the time. And she was like, I don't know how to start a startup, and we've never built a registry. And I'd had some registry experience. One of my marketing clients for a long time was a baby registry company. So I had a little bit of registry experience. Um and so she's like, I love it, but like let's let's table this idea for a second. So flash forward, she was supposed to get married um May of 2020, and that was pushed off, and it was pushed off so many times that they called off their relationship. Oh yeah, and she has a very happy ending, which I'll get to. But um, and so whereas my experience was I stayed in the marital residence and needed new things, she left her apartment with nothing. Um, my dad came and picked her up in his car, drove her back to Long Island. She found she got a lovely little new apartment for herself here in Huntington, and I got a phone call from her, and she's like, You know that idea you had for like building that registry? She's like, I think that that would be really smart. And so she had to buy herself all new things for this apartment. She spent thousands of dollars, and we sat at her new table and we we just built this and we've built everything from scratch. And so essentially, um, we have kind of two components. We are the world's first divorce registry. So you can come build a registry. We're we are powered by Amazon, but also you can use my registry if you're not into Amazon. Um but we do like Amazon because it does provide security for your address, which is something we're really serious about. And we have tons of bundles of items that we put together for based on budgets and rooms of the house, and you can go add all of these things to your registry totally for free. And then we give you the scripts and language to ask people how to support you during this time. And then we have 120-ish plus experts in all different categories all over the world that you can connect with and have free consultations. And then we realized that registries itself do not make money. And so we wanted to be able to pay our bills. And so we have a membership for the experts. So the money that comes in that we make, and we're really transparent about this, is from marketing, from the experts. They pay either$25 or$55 a month, depending on what they get. And we don't make money off of people going through divorce beyond the tiny pennies we sometimes make from affiliate links. And so we provide tons of divorce education and research. We have free ebooks. What we found over the years, this is year four doing this, is that we have been the ones providing lots of really accessible education. And divorce education is gate kept and it's behind walls for a reason. And I think because we both come at this from not a legal perspective, we very much understand how to explain. We were both teachers, we can explain things to people, and we've had so many people say to us, like, I had no idea what all these terms meant until you explained them on social media or whatever. So uh we do a lot of free support, we have tons of free workshops. And then I also meet one-on-one with people for free going through divorce and connect them directly to experts, which is most of what I spend my day doing, and I absolutely love it. And I get to connect with hundreds of women, and it's really powerful. But we are deeply steeped in divorce culture, and so much of what we do is just trying to shift that narrative, right? Divorce is just a life transition. We are forward thinking, you're not gonna come to fresh starts and see those traditional, you know, anti-men, anti-ex-husband memes. That is not what we're about. We're about helping you find yourself and step into your next journey and get the experts and support. And uh, we just we love what we do and we're always always iterating and figuring out the next phase. So, you know, if you're listening and you're considering divorce, definitely we're here for anything before, during, and after.

SPEAKER_01: 25:32

I need to connect my neighbor with you. I'm gonna I'm gonna give her she's going through this psychotic divorce that I just found out about.

SPEAKER_03: 25:40

So yeah, yeah, divorce is wild. What are some things that really surprise people when they're going through divorce? So many things, Zara. So, you know, I talk to a lot of women who will come to me, and I'm the first person that they'll tell that they're going considering divorce or, you know, want to ask for a divorce. And especially when you have children or a home together, there's so many more experts that you actually need to have on board. And that was what I realized when I was going through my divorce and the reason we built Fresh Starts. I wanted to build a one-stop shop that you could come get all the items and the people. We call it your hype team to get you through a divorce. And when I was going through my divorce, my mortgage lender was like the most important person to me because he was the one that helped me refinance my house so I could continue living there. And so, what I what a lot of people don't realize is that they'll come to me and say, I'm considering divorce, do you have a lawyer? And I'm like, let's back up, right? You don't need a lawyer first. Let's start with a divorce coach. Let's start with talking about your mortgage, let's start with a co-parenting coach, and then we'll find a mortgage after. So there's typically what we found for every life change you go through about seven experts that you need. And divorce and separation are the second and third most traumatic life events an adult will go through. I didn't even know that a co-parenting coach was a thing. Yeah, they're wonderful because they, you know, you don't think about it, but you go from having an intimate relationship with somebody to have to co-parent with them. And co-parenting coaches are fantastic. We have some really great ones who will help you figure out that new relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 27:14

Marriage is so hard. So I can't, I can't even like think about how my husband and I went through a separation last year and or have worked it out since. But it is like marriage is so hard and communicating when you like the person. So when you don't like the person, it is just like yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:34

Yeah, yeah. And you know, I will say, and this is really horrible, but there's a lot more abuse that's going on behind the scenes um than people realize. And I would say of I talk to probably, I don't know, 12 to 20 women a week. Of those women, half or more are in some sort of abusive situation. Whether it's and it's usually it's not always physical. It's financial abuse, emotional abuse. Um, sometimes it is physical abuse. The amount of women I've talked to who don't have access to the money, and these are not, these are people living in suburbia. These are just, you know, moms you see it pick up. And I have talked to so many women that I'm I just say, you need to start making money, right? Whether it's$5 in cash, babysitting for the kid next door, you have to have something coming in. So, you know, so much of the work I do is having these conversations out loud and saying, like, hey, I don't think that we're people realize how much, you know, how many women are under surveillance in their own homes, which is really scary. And I think that a lot of people turn a blind eye to that, but it's happening.

SPEAKER_00: 28:38

I mean emotional abuse, especially, like it's so insidious. Do you have any tips for people to consider or keep in mind if they feel like maybe they're being emotionally abused?

SPEAKER_03: 28:50

I love this question. Nobody's ever asked me this, so thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 28:53

Leave it to the journalist.

SPEAKER_03: 28:55

So much of it is gaslighting, right? So so much of emotional abuse is you not believing yourself. And I want to just back up for a second. Oftentimes when we end up in emotionally abusive relationships, it's because we were raised in some sort of emotionally abusive relationship. So for us, we still may not know that, right, until long down the road. But you may have been raised by a mom or a dad or a sibling that was not kind to you or abusive to you, but then would turn it over, right, and say it's your fault or you're too sensitive or all of those things. So by the time you get into your marriage, that's love to you. Like I this is what it's very hard for people to understand. Yeah. And I talk about this a lot. That's like air. Like you look around and you're like, oh, that's just normal for me. And it's obviously not. So one of my big tips is start writing things down. Start journaling. I have girlfriends of mine who would have like an anonymous blog because they were worried that their journal will be found in the house. So do what you can to safely journal, but write these things down with the date so you can go back and say, no, he really did say this or she really did say this on this date. If it's safe to record things, record them, right? Even if you never do anything with it, but listen back to it yourself. And also, like if you if you think you're being emotionally abused, you're probably being emotionally abused. So, you know, go follow accounts like mine. Like, I talk a lot about what it looks like, you know, to be emotionally abused. Silent treatment, that's emotional abuse, right? Telling you that you've gained weight and that you don't look good anymore, or you used to look better, or things like that. That's emotional abuse. And I think there's a lot more women, especially living with people who this is happening. It's become really normalized. Um, and that's that's the really scary part. And so the more we talk about it, the more important it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01: 30:45

What do you mean that it's become normalized?

SPEAKER_03: 30:47

Well, I think that it's become normalized to hate your wife. And I think that it's become normalized to just be snar snarky. Snarky to me is emotional abuse, right? It's not it's not nice, right? You should want if you really love somebody, right, you should want them to feel good about themselves. That's the that's the point, right? Obviously, there's like inside jokes, and there's people that have relationships that are snarky jokey. But if you're just outright saying things with the intent of making the other person not feel good, that's that's abusive behavior. You're you're putting yourself in a power position to make the other person feel worse so that they don't and and it's and it happens so slowly. That's what people don't realize, right? So, like I didn't realize this was happening to me until 10 years later. But by that point, my entire system was cut to the core. And I was like, I had no idea who I was at that point. And the way that a lot of these situations work is that they also they make you really tired, right? So you're exhausted, you can't think for yourself, you can't think straight, and you just want to keep the peace, but that often comes at a huge cost, which is like your sanity. And so, you know, I think just like also going to therapy is huge. Like I started therapy and a month later my marriage was over. Right. And so I would say also, if you have somebody in your life that comes to you and is like, this is happening in my marriage, or this doesn't feel good to me, don't dismiss it. You don't know what the background is. Like, you don't know, you know, I've had so many friends come to me and they're like, he says this and this or calls me names, and I'm like, that's not okay. Like it's not it's not funny to call your wife a bitch. Like it's just not, right? It's not nice, and it happens so much. And that's it means Sam's making a face, but like, yeah, I have a lot of friends that'll be like, yeah, he has a couple drinks, and then he calls me names. That's not okay. But we've like normalized in a lot of our society, like he's just having a mood, or he's just tired, or he's just stressed, right? We hear that a lot. And it's like, no, they're not allowed to treat people like that.

SPEAKER_00: 32:55

I feel like we all grew up on so many really toxic love stories, too. Yeah. In movies, on TV, like gossip girl, Chuck Bass being hailed as this like romantic hero when he was a literal sexual predator. Like, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_03: 33:10

Yeah, I had a big problem with and I love Mindy Kaleen, but the Mindy Project is a show about emotional abuse.

SPEAKER_01: 33:16

And I wait, tell me more about this.

SPEAKER_03: 33:18

What's his name? Blew my mind. Yeah, the emotionally abusive towards her.

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

And I wait, wait, can you give me an example? I loved that show. So uh I did too.

SPEAKER_03: 33:28

He's not nice. He's not nice to her, and he makes her feel like shit, and he makes her feel small, and he makes her feel that she's not confident in their relationship ever. And so, you know, when I I rewatched the whole series recently, and when I got to the end of it, I was like, did she know what she was doing? Like, is this like actually about emotionally abusive relationships?

SPEAKER_01: 33:50

No, I'm sure it's about her own relationships.

SPEAKER_03: 33:53

Right. And she's very single now, I think. And so it's very, very clear when you rewatch that. My friend Laura Danger, you guys might know, she's uh big in the weaponizing competence space. Her book is coming out soon, No More Mediocre. And I read it and it's amazing. Um, and she does a lot of work around like the NAG paradox and how it's in sitcoms and TV. And if you look back at a lot of those early, you know, 90s, 2000s sitcoms, the wives are treated horribly. You know, the daughters are treated horribly.

SPEAKER_01: 34:23

Married with children, king of queens, or whatever that was. Like all of them.

SPEAKER_03: 34:27

I mean, like home improvement, like all of those shows. Like, you know, the why there's they're second fiddle to these men. And a lot of the men of our generation grew up watching those shows. And so they think it's okay to treat women like that. Ugh.

SPEAKER_00: 34:43

Yeah, I just remembered when Danny was like tampering with her birth control. Mm-hmm. Wait, what? I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_01: 34:50

Is that how she got pregnant?

SPEAKER_00: 34:53

I can't remember. It was maybe after she had the baby. Well, yeah, because they wanted a second one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:59

I just remember when she was when they weren't getting along and she looked at her closet in the old space because he was trying to get her to sell that place, and she's like, nope, the crib will fit right here. And I just remember being like, Oh.

SPEAKER_03: 35:10

I was weeping during that episode. That was a really I need to go re-watch that one. Yeah, it's really, it's really sad. And um he, you know, again, it when you love somebody and you respect them, that's really what it comes down to. When you respect that person, you want them to feel good as they walk through the world, right? And and if you're not gonna treat them well, then that's that's a power dynamic right there that is not okay in a marriage.

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

I'm I'm curious about your own co-parenting journey. Your now ex-husband moved away. Did he try to have like joint custody where the kids would come out on the summers or you know, on breaks? I I know that is a common thing if you don't live in the same state. Was there any talk about that? Or was it just like, okay, I'm moving on next.

SPEAKER_03: 35:55

That's a great question. I think there was talk, and then the pandemic hit, so I think it it kind of shifted things around. And he's been here to visit the kids and things like that. You know, I think that it's okay to say not every family is traditional in a journey, right? And like we actually moved so a couple of years ago, I sold my house and made a profit and put that money towards investing in our company because I wanted to do way less marketing and focus on fresh starts. And also, to be honest, I was paying a mortgage and health insurance and everything for my kids that beyond child support. And I was tired. And so I moved back in with my parents into the home that I grew up in because they had a five-bedroom house and it was two of them here. And I was like, why are we why am I paying a mortgage 15 minutes away if we could live here? And so we've had a multi-generational house for almost four years now, and that has been like its own journey in itself. And again, there was a lot of shame associated with that. And people, you know, when I told them, like, oh, I'm moving back home, they were like, Really? Like you're that and I'm like, yeah, who cares? Like, you know, I don't have to pay mortgage or rent. Like, I win in this situation. And so watching that family form has been really interesting too. And I was very close to my grandparents, and so for me, it's really special to have my kids rate be, you know, my my stepdad and my mom are my co-parents. My sister in Scotland is my co-parent. She is my sister moved over to Scotland. She, long story short, met, she reconnected with somebody now, she's married and lives in Scotland to the man of her dreams. Um, but she, you know, I think that we need we also I love this question, Sam, because we need to rethink co-parenting, right? What does it mean to be a co-parent? And it doesn't necessarily mean being there physically, right? So, like, for example, my sister helps me schedule doctor's appointments. She helps the kids with their homework. It's on FaceTime, but I know that I can rely on her for math homework because I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. And so my ex-husband is a musician. He helped my son pick out a guitar. He had it sent to him. So we send him videos of the shows. Like, so there's so many different ways that you can co-parent without necessarily being there. And you can have many different co-parents, right? I have a lot of girlfriends that have their girlfriends, right, as co-parents or their parents. So um, I I really love to reconfigure family situations. It's the sociologist in me, I think. It's like, why not? Right? It's like the more people that love your kid, the better.

SPEAKER_01: 38:24

Yeah. And aren't there also statistics around how good multi-generational families are for both the age the aging grandparents as well as the children and the parents? Like, you you would get probably not even five minutes to yourself if you didn't move with your parents.

SPEAKER_03: 38:39

No, I mean, I will be honest with you, I'm very spoiled. My stepdad cooks dinner every night. He helps me pick up the kids and take. I mean, yeah, like why? And I'm like, why would I leave this situation? Like, yeah, you know, and like benefiting everyone. It's keeping them young. Everybody. I don't have to do the pumpkin carving. I don't have my mom's an artist, she does the craft project. I'm like, I and my kids, you know, when you're a single parent, there's only so much energy, even when you have shared custody, there's only so much energy that you have, right? I talk a lot about like this we call it the separation shift, which is the base the domestic equity or inequity that exists beyond the marriage, right? That that bleeds into divorce and co-parenting. And you're still going to be managing your children, no matter what, even if they're at the other parent's house. They st you still need to make sure that they have everything they need. And so having the ability to have other adults here. So, like if a kid is sick, they can help me get the medicine. I don't have to like pay for somebody to deliver it, right? Little things like that. It makes a really big difference for for me. And it's exhausting to be a single parent. Like it truly is. However, it was more exhausting for me to be a married single mom than to be a single mom.

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

Because you're still managing their emotions and not you're walking on eggshells and doing all that. Yeah. And like, again, this is not a man-hating show, but like men can drain the energy out of a room pretty quickly, depending on their mood. Like, I feel like that is a or if they're sick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:07

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It was, and I talk a lot about that too, because there's a lot of shame. I had a lot of shame about being a married single mom because I had the world saw inwards was a suburban family that had two incomes and two parents. And that was not what was happening actually inside my house. And so, you know, I think that there's a lot, and there's a lot of women living like that too, that, you know, show up to every event without their partner, and he doesn't know where the good kids go to school, and yet he lives in the same house with them, right? So we need to rethink what it means to also have two adults in the house. Is it actually having two adults in the house?

SPEAKER_01: 40:48

Yeah. And like normalize talking to the community. So I have been, I I've taken a break from therapy recently, but I do. Not believe in marriage counseling. We have gone to, you know, every time I have been in like couples counseling, even before my partner, it always ends like the relationship, okay, well, you guys are different, this isn't gonna work. And I think one of the things, at least for us, that was really I should speak for myself, for me in my life has been opening it up to family and friends and being like, hey, here's what's really going on. I need your help because they want to help. People want to help and they want, like, they know you better than anyone and they know your partner and all of that. And I, and I think in our individualized society, we don't trust people in our community. We are embarrassed. Like you said, there's like a lot of shame. But like as you start talking about these things, it's like, hey, what do I do? Can you like in my situation? One of my girlfriends called called my husband and they talked, and that made more of a difference than you know, thousands of dollars we spent in couples counseling. Not to, and this is not to disparage therapists either, because therapy is wonderful, but I think sometimes it can be like it can make you more adversarial because it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:03

I mean, I think that the the first stop for me is always individual therapy, right? And working through that. I also have my own issues with couples counseling because often abuse can be bypassed in couples counseling if somebody's not telling the truth, which they're not gonna tell the truth, right? And so often counselors are not, sometimes counselors are not trained to see those emotional abusive signs. Um and so I talk to a lot of women that were like, we tried, we tried for years, and he's still, you know, withholding money, or he's still screaming at me in front of the kids, or whatever it is. And, you know, I just so many people are living these lives and we just don't know. And I think Sammy make a great point. It's like we have to be inclusive to all these different types of families and situations and respond with, you know, curiosity and empathy instead of shame and like, what are you talking about? Right? Like, at least you're married, at least he has money, you have money. And it's like, but maybe you don't have access to the money. So, you know, I think we need to definitely open up more about that.

SPEAKER_01: 43:06

Yeah, and then it can also go the other way, like leave him immediately, get out of, and and then it's like, well, that's not helpful either. Like you see a lot of this on social media, especially, rather than like, I mean, sometimes it happens in your own personal thing, but it's like, why are you married to this guy? He's a loser. Get out of that. You picked wrong to your point earlier. Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 43:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 43:25

When it's like thing life is so much more complicated.

SPEAKER_03: 43:28

I had that happen to me, you know, when we were getting like in the early days of separation, and I had a friend and she kept saying, just kick him out. And I was like, number one, we're we both on the house. I can't just kick him out. Number two, he's not actually doing anything that would make me have to kick him out of the house. Number three, I don't even know how I would start that conversation. He has nowhere to go, right? And I still loved him. I wasn't gonna like, you know, kick him out on the street. And I had to stop answering her calls because I was like, she just keeps telling me to kick him out and she doesn't get it.

SPEAKER_01: 43:59

You know, and Was she married or a single lost?

SPEAKER_03: 44:01

She is married. And and I think that that's I was gonna say, like part of the part of the concern that I have sometimes and why I like to really talk about this on social media is it's it is hard to understand what's going on in people's houses or the background of things, right? But you sometimes have to slow down and go, okay, so that's the scenario, right? So like you're afraid to have this conversation because then he'll silence, silent treatment you, and then the kids will notice, and then blah, blah, blah. Right. So it's like there's always more to the picture.

unknown: 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:31

And I've definitely been guilty of the other side of it where I'm like, just leave him. Like, what's wrong with you? Before I had kids, especially, where I'm like, he's a dick. Like he's psychotic, like he's clearly a narcissist. Get out where it, and now like being married with kids, you're like, oh gosh, things are so much more complicated. And, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 44:48

It's expensive. And it's really expensive to leave, right? Like that's the other thing is that a lot of women just don't have the finances to leave safely.

SPEAKER_01: 44:57

Yeah, that's especially now with everything going on with the shutdown. And again, we are not a political podcast, but you know, I just learned that food stamps is what they call Snap. I didn't know that because like I was on food stamps as a kid for a little bit, and I'm like, I cannot imagine like food, like I think if people realized that this was food stamps being cut, it would be have a different impact than like Snap. Like, I what is Snap?

SPEAKER_03: 45:24

Yeah, I mean, and that's all the same language barriers, right? To keep people from voicing an opinion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:31

Uh so where can people kind of get started? Like you you mentioned a couple things earlier, but like let's say somebody is looking, my friend. I'm gonna refer her to you because this is can we walk through what it would look like for her?

SPEAKER_03: 45:46

Absolutely. Let's walk through it. So the first step is you're gonna want to book a free call with me. You can go, I'm Olivia Howell all over the internet. So you can go to Instagram, it's in my bio. You can email me, and my email is all over the internet. I will send you the link. The link is very public, it's a calendar link. You go book a free 15-minute call with me. They book up really quickly, I will say that. So if you need it sooner and you're listening to this, email me or DM me. I also respond to every single DM that I get, and I just want people to know it's me. Um, and I am a certified life coach, and so I follow all HIPAA laws with everything. I very much understand the confidentiality behind divorce. And so you can get in touch with me. We would chat on Zoom for 15 minutes, I listen to what's going on, and then I directly connect you with your safest email address to any experts that will be beneficial to you for a free consult. And so I usually, let's say for your friend, Sam, I would say, okay, let's get started with a divorce coach, right? So I'll introduce her to three divorce coaches that might fit her vibe. And then she gets to have a call with all of them. Sometimes it's 20 minutes, a half an hour of a free call, which is really great. Then she can decide maybe I'm gonna do a session with them to strategize my next steps, or maybe I'll do a package with them so we can strategize. Divorce coaches are an amazing benefit in this world that people don't know about. Um, if you don't know what a divorce coach is, they literally can help you with everything from getting out of bed in the morning to strategizing your parenting plan. We have divorce coaches that will fly around the world to go with you to court if you need them. They help you respond to every email and text. Um, and they actually save you money because if you can get organized with a divorce coach, which is a lot cheaper than a lawyer, then you will not only look like your lawyer's favorite client, an A plus client that's organized, but um you'll know what you want going into the divorce. And that's something I think a lot of people don't realize with divorce, is that the first question is always, what do you want? I remember when my mediator asked me, she's like, What do you want? I was like, a fucking divorce. That's what I want. She's like, What do you want out of the divorce? Right. I had never thought about that. Like I knew I wanted my kids, but I was like, I don't know. Like, and so a divorce coach really helps you strategize all of that. And then I always recommend talking to um a certified divorce financial analyst. Again, these are all free consultations. They'll help you look at your finances, decide the best way forward, a mortgage person, a realtor if you own a house together, co-parenting coach, right? Therapist if you don't have one. And so I'll connect you with anybody that you need. We also have a ton of free resources, free ebooks, free events. And then my email is open to people. So oftentimes I'm in communication with people myself. I like to call myself like a social worker for divorce, kind of, right? So I'm connecting you to all the people and the resources. And then you can work with our experts. You it can, I have people that come back years later. Like I'll connect them years ago to experts, right? And they're like, I'm now I'm ready. It takes women about seven times to leave, and women actually consider divorce for two years before they even talk about it publicly or with anybody, even their partners. Yeah, oh yeah. And so, um, yeah, and then like I'm in touch with them and I'm in touch with our experts. And so, you know, whatever your friend needs, um, oftentimes I'll send them to let's say a divorce coach, and then the divorce coach will say, now ask Olivia if she has a financial person. And so the per person will come back to me and I'll introduce them. So I'm very much um in it with everybody. I truly don't want, you know, my sister and I are, you know, I'm the big sister, but we always say like we're the big sisters to these people. We don't want them to feel alone. The thought of like one woman scared about divorce in the middle of the night makes me want to like cry. And so I just want to be there. And so, you know, whether it's a DM, if you don't feel like talking to me, send me a message or an email and say, I mean, this happens, I do this all day. You know, I need a mediator, I need a lawyer. I I had somebody email me late last night with a really scary, like under surveillance. My husband doesn't let me check my, you know, X, Y, Z stuff. And I was like, here's a high conflict divorce coach who can help you for a free consultation, right? So we have everybody you need, we have every expert you could possibly need. We are the premier divorce support network of experts, and our experts are vetted, and we make them assign an ethos that says that they're inclusive and shame-free and judgment-free. So we are very open to everybody. It's not just women, but we tend to see a lot of women, but we have men come across as well.

SPEAKER_01: 50:27

Yeah. I just keep thinking about something you said earlier. You don't know what's going on behind someone's closed doors, like the things I just found out that were going on behind her closed doors, literally across the street from me. I'm like, like I knew he was an asshole, but like, you know, when you're like, oh, this is like taking it to another level and they're in my community, and I don't want them in my community, and there's so many of them um around. For people who are dealing with um their physical safety, do you guys have resources for that as well?

SPEAKER_03: 50:58

Yeah, we do. We have tons of resources on the website. We always recommend them talk to the hotline, which is a really well-known place for domestic violence. Um, but we also have wonderful coaches that can help people find resources where they are. And, you know, just like reach out because there's so so many resources. And if we don't have a resource, we will find the resource for you. So we will never leave anybody stranded so they don't have something. And we really, really try to do it for as free as possible because we know that most people don't have money to go through this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:32

In your experience, do you feel like most cases of divorce are there's an element of abuse or infidelity, or do you think there's a lot of cases where people just grow apart?

SPEAKER_03: 51:43

I think that a lot of people just grow apart. I think a lot of people grow apart. I also think that there's a lot of weaponized incompetence and domestic inequity. I would say domestic inequity is the number one, but I think that the growing apart comes from the domestic inequity. And I wouldn't necessarily call like traditional domestic inequity like emotional abuse, right? It's just that maybe you're doing everything, the other person's not, you're tired of it. You know, you're that you're not feeling sexual towards that person because you're mothering them, essentially, right? And then also a lot of people just grow up and grow apart. And I always like to say you can grow up together or you can grow up apart, right? And so, you know, I think that's an element on a lot of people who have who get together very young. I talk to a lot of women who are high school sweethearts or college sweethearts. You know, me at 40 is not the same person I was at 26.

SPEAKER_01: 52:34

Thank goodness, right?

SPEAKER_03: 52:35

Exactly. Exactly. And there are some wonderful men out there who want to grow also, and they want to grow independently and they want to grow with you, and that's a beautiful thing. And there are some people, both men and women, that don't want to do that, right? And so, um I think that like, yeah, I think from my perspective, a lot of it is just growing up and growing apart, and maybe that domestic inequity part. I don't see a ton. There is infidelity, but I would say that's not like even in the top five reasons that people a lot of financial abuse, though. A lot.

SPEAKER_01: 53:09

And that's like not having access to money, being told, like getting your card shut off if you don't do what you say.

SPEAKER_03: 53:15

Or even there's like a lot of women put, I mean, again, and this is something not talked about, but there's a lot of women who are the primary breadwinner in the family who put their money into the joint bank account and then it gets spent and they don't have uh, you know, a say in it. And so there's actually a lot of men, not a lot, but there's a certain amount of men who are stay-at-home parents or the person at home, and they're actually controlling a lot of the money in a not great way. And the woman who's making six figures is actually being financially abused, but it's incredibly hard to explain that to a judge, right? So it's it's really tricky.

SPEAKER_01: 53:56

Well, and then the I mean, this is a whole nother conversation. I know we don't have time for it, but like navigating the court systems and well, you know, when you're being threatened that they're gonna buy off the judge or you know, whatever, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03: 54:09

I mean, I always say, like, you know, when you talk about abuse, even physical abuse has to be documented and photographed. And if it's not documented and photographed, it's really hard to prove. And so if you can't prove that, then there's no way. I mean, I remember saying things to my lawyer. She's like, they're not gonna care. They're not gonna care, right? And like talking to some women who are physically abused who have talked to their lawyers, who's like, no, it wasn't bad enough, right? Like, I hear that a lot. And it's horrifying, right? That we're we're in this culture. But yeah, the the law, the legal system is legal abuse is a whole other topic, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:47

Yeah. Oh man. Well, if you had your best friend coming to you, which hopefully or your sister, or actually, what is something you wish you knew before getting divorced? I mean, I know you created a whole platform that has all of those things, but if you could like disseminate one thing, what would that be? Other than going to Fresh Starts, which sounds like a really good place to go.

SPEAKER_03: 55:09

Yes, it is the place to go, Sam. No, I think that I would say divorce was always the plan for me. And it this is gonna like really flop people's brains over in a lot of ways, but I my life trajectory was not to get married and have kids. It was to get married and have kids and get divorced. And sometimes divorce is the plan. And from that, I got my kids, I got the career I've always wanted, I've ever I have everything. I have a beautiful life that would never have happened without divorce. So we need to reframe divorce not as a failure or a negative. I never think it's a failure. It's just a transition that we go through. And my goal is to make it as boring as possible so that nobody has to make it a big deal anymore and provide the support. But maybe that was the plan. Maybe divorce was the plan, and you're getting to the be the person that you are exactly supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00: 56:09

What's a part of parenthood, but specifically in your case, single motherhood that has brought you a lot of joy?

SPEAKER_03: 56:16

Oh my gosh. I didn't know that it was possible to have kids that are smarter than you, I guess. And so we watch Jeopardy together every night. And um, my 12-year-old especially is like a big trivia person. It blows my mind to think that I I sometimes will look at them and be like, what planet did you come from? Like you didn't come from me because I don't know any of this stuff. I think that there's like, especially my kids are 12 and 9, and there's a joy that I'm getting from them now that's just really fun. Like it's like, you know, we get I I hated having babies. I was not a baby person. Right? Infants, I wouldn't have to be able to do Sarah likes it. No, not my thing. Hard pass. I I like kind of like joking around with them and being like silly and like telling stupid jokes and like you know, singing with them. And I love learning what excites them, right? Like my older son loves musicals and history and could tell me everything about war and peace because he studied it for fun. And I'm like, who are you? But like I sit there listening, right? Where my younger son is much more mechanical and he builds things. And I'm like, you just built this thing from like nowhere. That's the coolest part for me is like seeing these humans come alive before your eyes. Um, and you're like, somehow they came from me. But I will say to end the really cool part for me is to see my grandparents in them because they're not around. And so um, my you know, I had one grandmother, one grandfather that I was very close to. And to like, you know, you sometimes will like see them do a little tiny thing, maybe it's like a you know, an eyebrow raise or something with their hands, or the way they say something to you, and you're like, that was just like how they did it, and like that is really, really special to me. That's really sweet.

SPEAKER_01: 57:58

Yeah, I've definitely seen our parents in my son, and it's like, whoa, that that's crazy. You're more like my mom than you're like me. Like, that's crazy. Even though you've never met. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure we could have a whole nother like 10-hour conversation on all of this. I really am gonna refer people over to you because I think what you're doing is really important, and like you have no idea. I I've heard the phrase the same, you don't divorce the same person you married.

SPEAKER_03: 58:27

You don't.

SPEAKER_01: 58:28

And that's uh so you have to go into the conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 58:32

And it's and I just want to validate like for anybody listening, it's really scary to watch the person that you once said a vow to. Like that I always joke, like my ex-husband was with me delivering two babies, and then to like go through divorce with the person that held your knee up while you're delivering a baby is very fucked up, right? And like we don't talk about that, you know, and so like I I just if anybody wants to have those convos, like I'm always down to have those convos.

SPEAKER_01: 59:00

Yeah, yeah, that it yeah, because they've seen you in like literally the most intimate scenario ever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, Olivia, we are going to link everything in the show notes to make sure that people can find you. So click on the show notes, everyone. And thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_03: 59:18

Thank you for having the conversations that people don't always want to have. It really means the world. And, you know, people are listening and just having the conversations could really save somebody. So I appreciate both of your work. Thank you.