The Truth About: Why The System Fails Working Parents with Melissa Panzer

The cracks in the system aren’t hairline—they’re chasms you feel every school morning and late-night Slack. We sit down with filmmaker and producer Melissa Panzer (WABE’s The Work Behind the Work) to unpack why so many women who could be leading are instead leaving, and what it would take to make work and family actually coexist without breaking us.

Melissa traces her path from ESPN’s storytelling culture to a decade documenting the labor market, then into the frontline of pandemic-era motherhood. She interviewed 200 moms and kept hearing the same theme: corporate structures weren’t made for two demanding careers and kids, and the nine-to-five still assumes a spouse in the shadows. We explore universal design—solve for moms and you lower friction for everyone—and why Fair Play-style rebalancing at home fails without top-down policy that respects soccer drop-offs as much as sales calls.

We go there on return-to-office mandates, the quiet exodus from leadership, and the real economics behind “flexibility.” The conversation pulls apart social media’s romanticized stay-at-home aesthetic and how MLMs exploit a genuine desire for income and independence. We examine the childcare math that eats entire salaries, the public vs private school squeeze, aftercare lotteries, and what kids actually learn from what we model—who uses the broom, who makes lunch, who gets to rest. Melissa shares how research changed her marriage: loosening control, letting help in, and learning kids do just fine when care is shared, even if the sandwiches look different.

This is a candid, data-aware, and deeply human look at work, caregiving, and the small wins that keep us going—the bedtime finally won, the book finally read, the moment a child says, I did it, and we whisper back, so did I. If this conversation moves you, subscribe, share with a friend who needs the solidarity, and leave a review with the one policy change you think would move the needle. We’re listening.

Transcript

Meet Melissa: From ESPN To Docs

SPEAKER_04 0:29

Melissa, welcome to Do You Want the Truth. Thanks so much for taking the time to be here. Thanks so much for having me. And I know you have some illnesses going on in your house. We were talking before we started recording. So, question for the audience: would you rather have the stomach bug or norovirus or hand foot mouth? Because we all chose hand foot mouth, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Yeah. Yeah. So can you tell us a little about, you know, who you are?

Pandemic Shock And The Motherhood Crisis

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah. Yeah. So um I'm Melissa Panzer, obviously, and uh I've been a producer and a storyteller for I mean ever, as long as that's what I went to college and graduate school for. And when I was starting my career, I uh worked at ESPN, I did sports, I was there when they launched 30 for 30, and I sort of just like cut my teeth on documentary storytelling. Just to be clear, I didn't play a big part in that project. Uh but it was amazing to learn from the people that did. I think I learned a lot about storytelling and about documentary storytelling. Um, and then I moved to Los Angeles, which is where I live now, and I went to graduate school for producing and graduated and I started my own tiny commercial production company. But again, because like I knew about sports and docs, that's kind of like where I stayed. And then my boss at ESPN actually left also, and she went to work for this company called Working Nation and uh brought me with her. And we sort of started making like documentary content about the workforce, which at the time I was totally not interested in. I didn't even really know what that meant. I like never took economics ever. And so I did I didn't even know the difference between macroeconomics and microeconomics, and I didn't know what globalization was. So um I sort of like blindly took this job, mostly because I learned that there was a problem with jobs in America, and that's like a human story and was really interesting to me. And so I worked there for a long time, 10 years. And while I was there, the pandemic happened, and I uh we didn't, you know, everything changed. And I had a baby, and could my friends, you know, this is sort of my like go-to line. Everybody I knew felt like jumping off a bridge, but moms felt like jumping off like a bigger bridge. And I couldn't really understand why. And I mean, I felt that way, and I had a lot of help and a super supportive husband. And uh I like started to look into why. And that led me down a path of really doing a lot of work, which was a lot of how I ended my time at Working Nation on focusing on moms, working moms, student parents, et cetera.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Yeah, your podcast is great, by the way. It's so, I mean, it makes sense that it's so professional. When I was listening, it reminded me kind of, I know this is a controversial podcast for some, but the daily, it's like very very beautiful. And so, um, Zara and I talk about this and we talk about it on the podcast a lot that corporate America was not built for parents or to have two working parents and the corporate, you know, the nine to five is just it's just not doable, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

And if you and if you have both parents with a demanding career, something is gonna break. And often it it's the marriage, often it's, you know, the relationship with the kids. And I recently left my corporate position because I was like, and I left a lot of money on the table. But you know, like it was like I got laid off, went into consulting, and then now I'm, you know, I call myself a trash panda. I sell stuff online that I find uh, you know, goodwill. I sell and sell vintage things and things like that because it allows me to be flexible. Bazaar and I talk a lot about a like kind of it used to be called the gig economy. I don't know what you would call it now, because it's not really the gig, but it's more like contractors and like people having their own business. Is that kind of what you're seeing too in like the shift of what parents are doing?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yes. And actually, I think one of the things, so so the way I started, and if you listen to the show, you know this, but the way I started was by interviewing 200 moms during the pandemic to sort of like see are these universal feelings, what is different from mom to mom? And when I first the amount that I have learned since 2020 to today on this subject, it's like really mind blowing, honestly. And I never, and when I did those interviews, I was like, oh my God, I don't know what to do now because this is so overwhelming that like I I'm not an economist. Like I this I'm I don't know what to do now. And it was funded by a grant, and the grant money was gonna run out. And my boss was like, Melissa, you gotta make this show. Like, what is happening? So, but all that to say, one of the women I spoke to during the interview, it really was kind of eye-opening for me. She was on a executive track uh at like a pretty large, you know, maybe like a Fortune 500. And she was like, I quit. And like the burnout was real, and there I could, there was no light at the end of the tunnel. And my fear actually with that, and sort of Sam, the story you're telling, and I think generally speaking, is that the women who could be leading are leaving. Yep. And that's terrifying to me because like those are also the women who can make change. Yep.

unknown 5:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

And so, yeah, I mean, you know, Claudia Golding in her study around the pandemic said that women left and came back faster than anticipated. And it's because we need two income households. All that to say, like, I don't know, I don't know if they came back to do the same thing or they pivoted and are bringing less money. But I would be hard pressed to believe. I mean, I'm I've seen it in my own life to find the same kind of challenging work. Because, like, well, can I, can I pivot? Like, can I, I need to take a shower. Like, when does that fit into the schedule?

The Leadership Leak: Women Leaving

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Yeah. And I need to just take time to do nothing. Like the like, I just want to sit and um yeah, and then and then you get so snap at your kids too. I don't know if this was your experience, but like my trigger, like I still snap at my son because like I am human, but it happens a lot less frequently since I stopped working. But they're actually seeing right now that women are leaving in droves, especially from leadership positions. So because you can't like I so I was in a leadership position, I was a director, and I was managing what felt like toddlers all day. Not the people who I who were reporting to me, but everyone else, like the executives I was working with were all the toddlers. And then I'd come home and I just had nothing left for my family. Sure. And I don't know that, you know, a lot of the men in those leadership positions who are so annoying, they have stay-at-home wives. They have, you know, a lot of adult or help or both. In a lot of cases, they have both. And so they're not going home drained, and the expectations on them at work aren't as high. So they can totally suck at their job and it's fine and they can be a VP, but women, you have to work so much harder in most cases to be taken seriously in all of that. And so all around, we're just completely drained.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Yeah, yeah. Melissa, did you have your kids pre-pandemic or did you have them after the pandemic?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

My son pre-pandemic, he he turned two in 2020. Um, and then my daughter was born in 2022.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Okay. Did you learn how broken the system is more through your work or more through your personal experience?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Both. I learned how broken it was through my personal experience, and then I learned why through my work experience.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah. I think we have sort of similar approaches here because I'm a journalist in the parenting space. So I think, like you, I have a lot of knowledge of these stories and the narratives and the reasons and the tensions, but I don't exactly know how to fix the problem because, like you, I'm not an economist. And so I think that's a very interesting space to be where you're like, I have all the information about what needs to change. I just don't know how to change it.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah. I mean, I think something I learned during doing the show was that with this particular issue, this is just one of the same of a lot of issues. And it suffers the same sort of like the solutions are probably really similar. The way we got to the problem is really similar. It's just moms are at the flowest rung to get hit. And I mean, it's really universal design. Like if you fix it for moms, you will fix it for everyone else for a multitude of problems. It's like when people started, you know, when people use the example of like putting a divot into the um sidewalk, which was built for wheelchairs, it solves for strollers also. And that can be said like about many things. And I I mean, I think Eve Rodsky's like fair play system really is like a first step in a solution. I think the problem with that, which she and I talked about, is that if the husband's like in charge of soccer and does the sign-up and takes the kid to soccer, like if he has to leave at six and the business doesn't care about the soccer, the problem will still persist. And so, like it's it's a top-down and a bottom-up problem to fix, I think. Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, it's um infrastructure changes that need to happen, not, you know, just like saying I want to be a more present parent. Like that's not gonna, unfortunately, like that's not gonna solve it.

unknown 10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah. And I think that, you know, during the pandemic, we were talking a lot about this scenario, which is to this day the scenario in my household where dad is in the home office and he has a door that shuts and he's uninterrupted. And mom is working from home, like from the floor of the playroom or from the couch or from the kitchen counter, coming to you from my kitchen right now. Coming to you from the floor in my son's room.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

I used to be using my daughter's room. Yeah. I gave up the office to my husband. I was like, well, you're bringing in the money to sustain our life. You can get the office.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Well, yeah. And I mean, I think there was all that conversation about things need to change in the home because moms are doing everything while they're doing their jobs. And I think the missing piece from the conversation was in a lot of cases, this is intentional because we cannot afford to sacrifice dad's income because it's what keeps our family going, because women are still underpaid. And, you know, many of us are not making enough money to say that my career is going to be on par with yours in the way we treat it within our home, too.

Home Front Inequity And Mental Load

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah. I would just go back to the gets a systems problem, though, right? Like I mean, yes, women make less when it's apples to apples, but like also go into jobs where they make less, not by any fault of the women, but that is just how, you know, Vicky Price talked about it in the show. Like, women are tethered to the home in a way that men aren't. And men will go twice as far once a family has kids for work and a woman can't. And so, like, in the fabric of society, like, as long as those market failures continue to persist, you're gonna be in that situation. Like, it's and that's part of what to me is so overwhelming about it, because it's like, I hear you say that, and I'm like, yeah, but there's nothing you can do to get a better job, to make more money. Like, it's just the system doesn't work that way. And like, that is, I don't know how you solve that.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Yeah. Yeah. My husband and I, I was actually earning more than my husband when I left, but I was doing the emotional labor at home. And for me, I just, you know, yeah, I can't do it. But I think in my area, so I'm in the Bay Area, which we had an earthquake last night. I don't know if you felt it down in Burbank, but it was like a really huge, I mean, it felt huge because it was basically on the fault line that we're at.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

It was only four. Like honestly, when I moved to LA, my biggest fear was being on the fault line of an earthquake.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

Yeah, you know, the Bay Area, we all we all kind of are. Yeah, totally. So yeah, that anyway. So the Bay Area, a lot of a lot of the women I know are earning what our husbands do or more. And whether it's through stock or whatever, and it's still, it's still we're doing more at work to earn that. So I don't know what the point of me saying that is. It's just like you're still doing the work at home. I think that's what you were getting at. That is that is where and and you know, to to talk about Eve Rodsky, you know, we talked about this with her too. Like, there is too much in a household for it to be just two people doing it. And like the way our system is set up, not only in corporate America, but societally, like the nuclear family is not how we're supposed to live. And we're supposed to live in community, and but the corporate structure impacts our ability to do that. And you aren't like stay-at-home parents, too, are so important to the fabric of a community because they have the time to do the PTA, they have the time to do, you know, the meal trains and all of those things. And so it's like, I don't know, I I'm so torn on this whole subject because when I was working, I was like, no, I'm never gonna not work. This is dumb. We need two incomes. And then now that I am not working at a corporation, I'm like, I'm never going back. And so because it's just not set up for us, and so it's almost like the whole system has to break before anything changes.

unknown 14:05

It does.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Did either of you read the glamour article about stay-at-home moms? Uh-uh. I haven't read that. I just saw it. I just tabbed it actually, like maybe last week. Yeah, I'm I'm curious to hear your thoughts after you read it, but I also think some of the imagery kind of speaks for itself, even if you haven't read it. Um it's I'm a little recap of it. So it's basically a piece about how there's a lot of this romantic I can never pronounce this word. Romanti Romanticism rising. Yes, romanticizing of stay-at-home motherhood happening on social media. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

And the trad wife situation. Oh, I don't even need to do that. Read this. I we I studied this for the show.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Uh-huh. But it's like I don't even think she really mentions trad wives as much. It's really more centered on stay-at-home motherhood, which is a completely different thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

It is. Yes. We couldn't fit this in actually to like the show, but I looked at because I think it's really complicated. Like, I agree, we need stay-at-home moms. I also like feel that a lot of stay-at-home moms get really trapped. Not, I'm not talking about the trad wife stuff, which also I have issues about, but like I talked about MLMs in the show. I mean, I think it is crazy to think that there are people that don't want independence and money. Like, that's what people want. They want to buy things, they want to feel like they are bringing something to the if I want a new dress, I want to be able to buy the new dress. And so I think that there are a lot of women that fall into these terrible traps because they love being a stay-at-home mom. They love homeschooling their kid, whatever. I love that for them. Like, I'm not, I don't hate on any of that. But at some point, I think the reason like Mary Kay and LilaRow and Tupperware parties like succeed is because Avon is because they are capitalizing on this opportunity of these stay-at-home moms who are looking for something that they cannot find. And so, like, Sam, I feel like the thing about the gig economy, like they overlap, right? Like I feel like I want independence and I want a bank account and to have my own life, but I also want to be here for my kids and watch them grow. Like, I don't understand why we can't make those two things possible while these like gazillionaire men who run Lila Rowe and Avon and fill in the blank, like really profit off their backs. It's I I could do a whole other show about it. It is infuriating to me.

Universal Design: Solve For Moms First

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Should I so so the question here, I'm just gonna, I'm reading the glamour article as we're talking. The question it poses is the question they're asking is are you mom enough to stay home? Or in other words, are you ready to read the system we have been forced into to create the life you want for yourself and your kids? Oh, this is crazy. And they quote Neha. Part, yeah, the trapping of it, that was what I was really scared about. And I am in a very different, I'm in California. I am much more protected than so many people. And so I don't actually have a reason to be as worried, you know. But I was like, I want to keep my skills up because what if, you know, my husband wants me tech? What if he gets laid off? I need to be able to like get back in. So I use AI and I use all these things, and you have to keep your skills up. And I think that is kind of a trap. Also, not to interpret, but like just what if you change your mind? That's the other thing, too, is like, what if I decide I don't want to do this or things slow down, which they have not slowed down with my son going to kindergarten uh at all. In fact, they have ramped up, which I heard was going to happen. But I think there is kind of like a middle ground that you have like, how can I know? It's such a complicated thing. And I think that's what a lot of the the mom influencers or the trad wives are kind of doing because they're doing social media and they do have a fallback plan if they leave. But a lot of the people who follow them do not. They don't even need a fallback.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Like, this is I the trad wife thing is like really infuriating to me because it's like Ballerina Farm, who like I follow her, I love her, like she has millions of people that are f like she has a business, she owns a farm. Like they make money on the farm. Like to say that like she's just like, you know, sitting home taking care of her kids, like it's just not the reality that even that she's putting out into the universe. Like they sell an$80 protein powder that I've tried.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

It gives toxic farts, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

That's really good to know because I have contemplated buying it.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Try it, try it. I'm curious to hear back. I was like, I I can't I shouldn't be eating milk anyway, but it's like, yeah, and people, yeah, but but it's just like it's not a true, that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Like she raised that she has like a lot of kids and like is really super involved in raising them. Like she does like go to the gym and runs a farm and a huge social media empire and makes a lot of money from those things.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I'm really noticing on social media is it's I feel like in the kind of girl boss hustle culture era, it was all about presenting this idea that you are doing the most. Yeah. And now I feel like women are trying to present this idea that they're doing the least. Like Taylor Swift and her soto. I love being a stay-at-home mom because all I did today was go to Target with my kids. And I'm like, okay, first of all, going to Target with your kids is chasing one kid down one aisle while like screaming for the other kid who's like trying to open a toy. It's remembering that your husband needs toothpaste and this kid needs this snack for school, and this kid needs a gift for a birthday party they're going to, and you need deodorant. Like, it's not easy. It's actually a lot of work. And we're just trying to minimize all of that in these, I don't know, I think this attempt to be aspirational or to have people think your life is enviable or whatever.

Trad Wives, MLMs, And Online Myths

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I'm just gonna say, so like I'm considering I have no social media presence right now, and I am considering like, can I pivot and use the show to jump off into something more than that? And so I I had a meeting with a friend of mine who is is an influencer, and she was like, you know, you have to like have a lot of b roll of yourself like doing stuff. Like that's a really good starting point. This was like a couple of days ago, and so my husband John is like following me around with a phone, like filming me, like living my life, and we're doing It's Rosh Hashanah, and I'm making a brisket for dinner tonight, and I'm cutting onions in the kitchen, and I'm in my workout clothes because I go to the gym at six every morning. It's the only time that one can work out and be a parent if you have a full-time job. And so I am in my workout clothes, like so gross and crying now, also from onions. And John goes to the cabinet where we keep our shoes, which also for some reason is where we keep our kids' goggles. And he takes out my daughter's goggles, which are like hearts, you know, like red, pink, and blue hearts, and like sticks them on. He puts them on and like gets his phone and is like, this is we're gonna, this is B-roll. We are gonna use this later. I can't wait to watch it. Yeah, I'm gonna show, I'll send it to you. It's so like, but I do, I felt, and I sent it to my friend whose name also happens to be Melissa, and I was like, like this. She was like, This is great because it's not doing that thing, Sarah. That like I want to show, like, it's really hard to do this this way. And I feel like all around me, people are faking it. And that's such a shitty feeling. Are we allowed to curse? I don't know. Absolutely. Such a shitty feeling, I feel like, for a mom to feel like, how do I be that? It's impossible to be what I am seeing, and I am drowning. And I'm like, fuck that. Like, no, we gotta show people, like, it's really hard all the time.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

It's really hard. Going to target is really hard. I won't go down to Instagram. I was telling Zara, I'm like, I can't do it. It like ruins my mental health. Like, even posting about the show because I'm like, I'm just flooded with all this stuff. And I'm like, it, I know none of it's real. Like, I know this is like WWE that I'm watching, like somebody's curated storyline that they want to show us. And I could do TikTok because everyone shows up there as ugly as they want to be, which is great. And I'm like, I can do that. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The you you mentioned too, I hope it's okay we talk about this, but that you have a nanny. And I am really, I'm always really curious about how people have like what their help structure and their community, whether it's paid or not, looks like and how you do it. Because you do you still have a full-time corporate job?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

I do. It has it's less money than I was making before, of course. So I don't know that we're keeping her, if I'm being honest. So I also was the breadwinner, and then Working Nation shifted and closed a lot of its situation. And I took another job making content for an organization that I love and feel very dedicated to. Um, also like similar doc styly stuff, but it pays me like a fraction of what I was making before. And um it's irresponsible for us to keep Sylvia. That's my nanny's name.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Uh, we're actually going through something right now. We have a we've had a family helper when I was working full-time because I am not good at domestic duty. There are some people who are good at it, who witness their moms do it. They're incredible at it. I have tons of friends who are like that. And I go to their houses and I'm like, how the fuck do you do this? And one of them was like, Oh, I have a helper. But we're going through it where I'm like, I just don't need her right now. And it's actually like, again, irresponsible to keep her, but I love her. And it's like, well, we're just gonna have to, so I have to send that text later today. But do you have family in the area who help? No. Okay, so no family. So that is something I've read articles about this before. Um, like in the Atlantic, where they say people who go to college tend to leave and go to school and then not come home. And so I know Zara, your situation is different. You are in the same neighborhood that you were raised with your parents right there, but most people go away and you know, don't come up. We happen to live where our family is, but they are not able to help, or my husband's family, but like we have to help them physically. And so yeah, it can be one of those things, and I feel like so many people our age are in that sandwich generation where it's like, okay, you're supposed to be helping me, but I have to help you because you're in the hospital again. And like, okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

My sister lives in LA. She lives in Santa Monica, which is like 45 minutes away from Burbank, and on a good day, right? They don't play soccer. I don't know why I said that. Skateboarding, my son skateboards. Yeah. I we it's a we're, I think, I mean, I was crying. So I told Sylvia in uh September at the beginning of September, like, I think that probably at the end of the year we're gonna, unless something changes, we're gonna have to, you know, cut ties. And I was crying when I was telling her. I mean, she's been in our life since my son was one and he's about to be seven.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And through the pandemic, I mean, she worked with us through her son did school in my bedroom. She's a sophomore in high school now.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

And so it's like totally devastating. I don't know how we're gonna explain it to my kids. But my husband and I both worked full-time, and it was and I had two little kids who were not in school yet. And you know, I even if they go to preschool, if they're not staying till five, like it's really hard. And actually, I delayed putting, I mean, someone will definitely hate that I'm saying this, but I delayed putting her in preschool because I couldn't justify doing both things. And so I'm all of kids her age were in school, and she was just like going to the park. And it was because I was like, I just can't, Sylvia's expensive and preschool's expensive, and my someone's whole salary is gone if we do both.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Yeah. Why are people gonna hate you saying that?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Oh, because I don't know. Like, I my daughter didn't have the like opportunity to like experience school at the right age. I feel like people have feelings about that. People will hate you for anything. I know. I mean, I don't hate me for it. I it's what my family had to do, but someone would hate that.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Yeah, I recently got online hate for talking about my the cost of my Daxify and like Venmoing my husband for it because it was like sixteen hundred dollars. And he was like, when I venmoed him, he's like, What are you doing? Like, A, why are you venmoing me? And B, so people will cancel you for anything. So that's a or hate on you.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Yeah. There's a woman I follow on TikTok who is a content creator, and she posted about how her son had a rough time going into his first day of preschool, and she just got roasted. And people were like, Why would you do that to him when you don't even work? And she's like, Well, the IRS thinks I work. So wait, what do you mean the IRS thinks she works? Her content creation. Oh, gotcha, gotcha.

Money, Identity, And Flexible Work

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Yeah, that's the other thing. That's insane. Yeah. Zara and I talk about this too offline often, is like, what because both of us work, but we consider ourselves, I consider myself a stay-at-home mom, even though I'm working full-time hours because I'm not bringing in a full-time income. And so for me, I consider. And Zara considers herself part-time, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Even though you bring in I'm self-employed. I'm it's not even really part-time, but I don't work 40 hours because I am my own boss. So I'm a freelancer. I'm sorry, ladies.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

I think you have to check that stop saying that.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

But uh for me, I'm like, I'm a stay-at-home parent until I make six figures, which is like I know bananas in a lot of places, but like me, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I just think like, well, I think you have to hold on. I feel like you're only gonna make six figures doing this if you have the time. Okay, very unrelated to anything having to do with parents. One of the first projects I worked on at Working Nation, yeah, Working Nation uh was this series that we I came up with called Do Something Awesome. And it was these short little films about people around the country. It was an amazing time in my life. I was pregnant and traveling like all over America, like learning about what people were doing for work. And we did these little docs, and they were all about like programs around the country that were helping people like get into new careers or pivot or whatever, in where there was a lot of demand for opportunity for workers, employees. And one of the things we did was this story in New Jersey, Rutgers was running this program that was giving people, they had to be older workers, so over 45 like skills, like doing like coaching, mentoring. And this was like, I don't know, maybe like eight years ago. So it was kind of revolutionary in a time where older workers were like, you didn't hire older workers. I mean, it's still a problem, but now it's at least a talked-about problem. And I interviewed this guy named Joe, uh, who had lost his high salary job. You know, he was making like$200,000 a year or something and got laid off. And he said, you know, looking for a job is the job. And he was right. And I feel like that's applicable in this scenario too. Like doing the work is doing the job. Like you won't make the six figures if you're not doing the stuff, building the blocks. And so, like, I don't, even though you're not making the money to go with it, I don't think you can look at it that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Yeah, I think it's I have so many complicated feelings on this because I think that, you know, calling yourself a stay-at-home parent, I think most people just kind of think of that as like the absence of paid work. Totally. But I think that that is a job in and of itself. It is. And I think that like when I, my kids, you know, they were home with me until they started preschool at four, and I had no help. I had, you know, no daycare, no nanny. And I was freelancing on top of that. And I remember someone like referred to me as a stay-at-home mom one day, and my husband was like, that's selling you short because you are working on top of taking care of our kids. And I'm like, well, I don't really think it's selling me short because I actually think saying that I'm just a journalist is kind of not telling the whole story because I'm also selling you short, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

I think both scenarios are like saying I'm a stay-at-home mom because I don't make X dollars. I don't like, I think being a stay-at-home, I could that's a job I could never do. Like, I do not have the skills. I get frustrated with my kids too quickly. I hate cleaning, like all the things that go with a stay-at-home mom. Like, no, thank you. God bless the women that can do that. It is incredible to me, honestly. Like having a conversation with a three-year-old about like make-believe is just not in my land. But that is a job that is a full-time job. And I think like, but building a business while you're doing that job is also a job. And so, like, I just I feel like so you can't, you can be a stay-at-home mom if that's what you are being, and also building a business. But I wouldn't say like, don't minimize the building the business because it's not making you a lot of money yet.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Yeah. And I mean, and like, and Zara and I have talked about this before. Like, for some people, it would be considered a lot of money, but it's not, you know, from where I was coming from, it's different. I think, I think that's the thing. It's yeah, I need I need a I need to workshop this.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Um, as you but I also, Sam, I think we can both agree that if a man were doing what we were doing, they would be called like visionaries or a and like super gods.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, they'd be an anomaly. Yeah.

unknown 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I think really too like I the I'll just quick say this unrelated to the podcast. One of the projects that I did when I was getting ready to leave, I'm directed my first short doc, which is called Unstoppable, and it's about uh, and you would never know about it, but it's about single moms and com and going to college, where I also learned a lot about this project. Like it was, I really embedded myself in like working mom student mom like land. But while I was doing that short film, I interviewed the president of a community college in California, who has like a hundred thousand students. It's a huge population of students, and a lot of them are single parents. And he was a single dad when um he was in college with a with a daughter who like slept on his couch. I mean, it was like a crazy story. And I was blown away by him and like falling all over him while he was like telling the story. At the end, he was like, I was invited to the dean's dinner at her house. And the single mom friends, people thought they were sluts. And he's like, I didn't do anything different than them. Like they're not, they didn't aren't responsible for being in this situation. But his point was like, any dad that goes like a step above and beyond is looked at like they are a hero. And these women are looked at as they are a villain. And it is also another part of the system. I mean, it's it's the same problem, just with different, a different color. Yeah, that yeah. Well, and then you think about it myself since being like, oh my god, Melissa, stop. Like any woman could would in it there, it's just a parent doing the responsible thing. You cannot like you gotta look at it both the same.

Return-To-Office And Who Pays

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Yeah, yeah. Also, if a woman were to do what dads do when they're working late or not showing up and missing the recitals and all of that, it's like, wow, she sucks. But a dad doing it is like normal. Yeah. In in your work, because this is coming up a lot, you know, on the news, is the return to office mandate for a lot of companies and how that's really impacting the workforce and especially moms, because like you mentioned, men will travel further. My husband won't. He turns down jobs, he won't even take an interview if he has to go in because he wants to be involved with in our son's life, and that is more important than making more money right now in his life. Yes. And I am curious what you're seeing, what you saw with that and your thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

I have my own thoughts, which I don't know if they're true or not. I'd love to hear them, which is our economy will crash if people don't go back to the office. And it doesn't really matter how it impacts women. Yeah. Like we need the real estate to be full, we need small businesses and restaurants near those businesses to thrive. And nobody cares. Once again, like a working mom is like at the bottom of the barrel of caring. So who cares if it screws it up for them?

SPEAKER_04 34:50

But what if they just stop going back? Because that's what's happening. People are like, Well, I can't, I feel I can't afford to go back, essentially. There's someone else to take the job.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

But then it's gonna be a bunch of like single.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

It doesn't matter. They don't care. I mean, that's that was like a big part, again, of like the learning on the show is what June Carbone says about like businesses being extraction devices. As long as like that's the mentality of corporate America, like it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that this is happening when people are at an all-time low in terms of desperation for a job. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

And it's so silly, like going into the office is you can't get as much done. Like, there's so many, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

And it's those same people that have never had, I mean, Josie Cook says this. It's those same people who've never had to take their kid to a doctor's office. So they're like, I don't know what who cares?

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Good for the economy.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Yeah. Or a lot of them, not a lot, but some like Salesforce when I worked there, they had daycare on site. So you would just drop your kids off, but it's since closed with everyone leaving. And so now it's like, but you have to come back, but we don't have the daycare that we had before. And how is that going to impact your work? And I mean, if you're tying it back to the bottom line, the profitability of the company and like your ability to focus and all of that. So you mentioned that you have taken a step back in pay, and that you're, you know, like looking at your different options and everything. Have you thought about going back to like finding a job in that space? And and how did it impact you? This is a load, like tons of questions in one. Did it impact your family in a positive way when you like took less money, or was it negative or or not at all?

SPEAKER_00 36:33

We're in a really lucky situation. We are responsible with our money and we saved a lot of money while, you know, I had a good job and John and John, my husband, still has a well-paying job. And I can't sustain where we are. Like this is unsustainable forever. But like for the immediate like we would go on a yearly vacation. Like, we can't do that this year, and that sucks. And like when I go to social gatherings with some of my like most wealthy friends, like I definitely feel like uh and like this is gross. We stopped shopping at Whole Foods, now we shop at Trader Joe's. Like, I don't feel like we're making like concessions, we're just uh looking at our finances in a different way. Yeah. And what I will say to answer this a sort of like backwards way, when I took this job, uh, I was like, I gotta get a new job. Like I took this job and then I was like, this is a temporary solve. And actually, pretty recently I decided that I'm not gonna do that, that I am going to try and figure out like who is Melissa Panzer in this space. And so, like, that's actually the bigger pivot is deciding not to look for like a high three six yeah. So it's like what's after the trauma, um, six-figure income. And my husband's really supportive of that. Like, I think he feels like the show did really well, and um, there's a lot more to say about this space, and every topic that we've covered today, like can blow out into something bigger, and we haven't talked about education like at all. And so I just I want the opportunity to like explore and see like what can I do? Like the same thing, Sam, you're talking about that you guys are doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

But again, it's moms doing it because it's so difficult to do it all. Like, I yeah, I even said to one of my, I was at a friend's house, we were at a friend's house for dinner last night. I was like, Oh, I'm starting to feel burned out. And I text her this morning, I'm like, I realize how out of touch I am for saying that because you guys have been working, both of you in a household raising a child. And, you know, I'm saying, you know, like, and it's like, but two things can be true, two things can be true. I can be burned out.

Education Costs, Access, And Equity

SPEAKER_00 38:53

And you're gonna say to yourself, though, like, I think I really think like starting getting your own thing off the ground is super intimidating. Nobody's there to tell you, like, are you doing it right? Are you doing it wrong? Like, trends change with the wind, and to also then be raising your kids as a stay-at-home parent on top of that, like real burnout can totally come from that.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Yeah, and she did say that. She was like, you can easily burn out on just doing a parenting. But it was one of those things where I'm like, man, I'm feeling burned out where I am right now. And households, double income households are doing this year after year after year after year. It's like, no wonder we have such a mental health crisis.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

Yeah. I'm slowly being able to go down on my anti-anxiety medication in this year, very slowly, but I'm like, okay, I'm feeling better. And I'm like, oh, is it a mental health issue? Is it a chemical imbalance in my brain, or is it just a level of stress that we put on parents in America? It's the latter.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I mean, so in figuring out what I what the future looks like, I've been like looking at lots of different parent related to the economy, like things. And one of, or like just mental load, overload, blah, blah, blah. And one of the things that I came across the other day was the statistic about that 50 years ago, 50% of kids who could walk to school walk to school alone. Yeah. And nobody walks to school alone today. And like, I don't know, has kidnapping gone up? Like, I don't really think so. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

You're not allowed to though. You're not allowed to have your kids walk alone. Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

Yeah. Why that I don't know because I mean we used to do, I used to babysit when I was like six, seven, eight.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

All it's doing is making extra work for you. Yeah. And like I feel like again, like another thing right at the end of this show that I came across a statistic or like a book that um we didn't get into in this show, but I'm really interested in exploring beyond is at every industrialization um in like the home. So like when the washing machine was introduced or the districts was introduced, the sell, the selling, the sales tool was this will these vacuum make for more efficiencies. But all they did was like make people wash their clothes more often. And it didn't create efficiencies. And so like women and moms are burning out, partly because of the things we're talking about, but partly because we have created these outrageous expectations that are not real. And like, why do they exist? Like your kid who's seven years old, like does not need a private soccer coach, but you are you, whoever you are, are gonna work hard because they show some talent. Or like you, what did you do during a snowstorm? Like you sat at home and like played with blocks, like nothing. I don't know. Like, why is it so why do we have everything on a gold platter? Like kids can just survive.

SPEAKER_04 42:01

Yeah. I've started bringing my son to the storage unit that I just got with me because I'm like, no, if you want me to pick you up from school, you can take the bus home. But if you want me to pick you up from school, we're going to the post office, we're going to the storage unit. You're gonna sit while I do listings and stuff. And he's like, okay. And so he's getting used to it, which has been an adjustment because he's so used to being entertained all the time. But you can do both things and like they're not neglected. Like we were probably neglected as a generation, and it's good for us. Like I mean, going out till sun, sundown. Okay, just see it, see him when it gets dark. Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I mean, I okay, definitely like not all great. Like, I'm not saying that, but like I need my kid to like be able to walk home at some point. My school is two blocks, like I can see the school from my front door.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Our kids in our neighborhood walk to school and they're, you know, six, seven, eight. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

That's I asked some parents yesterday or last week, like when at what point were third, fourth grade was the answer.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

Interesting. So some of the people that I know, they put um Apple, like they give them an Apple watch so they can track them. And then that's when they had them start walking home. But that was like six or seven, yeah. But you just put it in their shoe or on their watch, and then it's like they're fine, you know where they are. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

It's just like part of like a I don't know. I'm I have a lot of questions about like that stuff. Why are we making parents feel bad about a kid not having activities all the time?

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Yeah, I had to have a talk with my husband this weekend because he's like, we need to go out and do this and this on the weekend. And I'm like, dude, we're rushing around during the week. Like, me and the kid need to just chill in the mornings. He's like, but then we don't get everything done. And I'm like, then you go because we're gonna chill. And it was really nice because I'm like, he's constantly, our son is constantly rushed out the door every morning. And then it's like he gets home, we barely get any time with him. I'm like, I just want to, he can play and make his rocket ship out of his box, and you can go to Costco because I fucking hate Costco. Totally. Um, so we spent like half the day there yesterday. It's his happy place. Like he loves it. Oh, he loves running errands. I'm like, oh, kill me. Like, this is the worst thing you could have me do. Um education. So I know we don't have a ton of time, but I want to touch on the education component of it, especially yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

I have a lot of, you know, problems with like access to education, equity in education, and the cost of college. I mean, I really think like I this is coming part personal, part from just everything I know about college, but like I don't know, I have two kids. I they're not going where I went because I can't afford to send them there. Did you go to USC? I went to USC for graduate school. I went to Syracuse for undergrad and my husband went to Tufts. I mean, like, it's millions of dollars. Like, forget about college. Like, we bought the house that we live in because the public school system is here. Like, we have friends whose kids go to private school. It's you know,$45,000 a kid. They're in kindergarten. Like, what are we doing? Like, education is not a privilege, like a good education. Also, like, we need all the people that know all the things to figure out what the future of this country looks like, or we're just building stuff for one kind of person. And like, yeah.

Socialization, Gender Roles, And Care

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Well, a lot of people are also a lot of people are also starting to pull their kids out in homeschool. Like, I'm pretty sure one of the kids in my son's class just got pulled out to homeschool. And then you start getting into a whole different, different conversation because it's like you're learning completely different things and not learning other things, and there's no standardized homeschool program. I know the standardization is just which I was homeschooled for a little bit and it was like the easiest thing ever, and I got to play all the time because I would just cram all my work into, you know, one day a week. So it's it can be good from that perspective, but it also doesn't teach you to like, but this is like a system issue. It it teaches you to get ready for the real world and work a nine to five and like and I know that's why a lot of people are like, no, I don't want my kid to do that, but then you can't really function in society.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Well, I mean, I think like, you know, I I have a really no, you don't know this. I have a really severe learning disability, and school is really, really hard. Like my the teacher said, I mean, my mom was a warrior in the with a capital all the letters of warrior. Um, and she, the public school was like, Melissa will need to go into special needs class. Um, she was like, She will not. Uh, my parents pulled me out of public school. I went to private school. They were horrible there about like this learning disability thing. My mom would meet with the principal, like, I mean, guns blazing, like into his office every day, every week, whatever it took. She rewrote the rules. Someone read me the SATs. I have an English language disorder. And um, I don't know. I I why did I bring that up? What's an English language disorder? It's uh it's like dyslexia. It's like, you know, six words long, ironically, for someone that like can't read. That's you think they'd call it like run, but no. Yeah, I it's uh I have to like for something to like go into my brain, I have to read it and hear it.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Oh, I we have uh one of our neighbors, he has an auditory learning disability where he can't he can't hear, like he can't write. Yeah, he can, I don't know, he can so he speaks to text to do all his papers. Oh yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. And I had never heard of this before, but um, yeah, the private school. So your your mom rewrote the rules.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

I'm this is I'm gonna go like way left here, which is like so this learning disability prevents me from writing like well-crafted emails. And so when like ChatGPT was introduced, like that problem went away for me. And so, like going back to the educational part and the equity thing, nobody thought about that when they like came up with the platform. But people with all kinds of experiences, if they're well educated, can make, I mean, it goes back to universal design. Like if you have a problem and you have a different problem and you see the world differently, if we have all have access to the same kinds of tools, we will make the world a better place for everybody. Um, but you know, we don't do that in education.

SPEAKER_04 48:39

Yeah, the other thing with private versus public school is things in private school are built in to make it easier for the parents, like, you know, after school care and all of these things. It's not like hunger games trying to get your kid into after school or get onto whatever. But you we're in California. So you can't get your kid into the school. Yeah, yeah, you do everything at the front end, and then it's like you don't have to do anything else. But, you know, like the they have all the different cares so that you can pick up at six. And I know that private uh public schools also have that, but it's like if you can get into the program, which a lot of times you can't. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

And like, is it who's at the program? Like, are they I feel like a lot of kids learn like bad language, bad habits from public after school care. Speaking as a parent whose kids are in public after school care or have been at points. Um, I don't know if that's different at private school or not, but definitely like my friends whose kids go to around the bell, it's called, they're like, oh God, my kids learn the worst language there. Like every they're exposed to all the things there.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

Yeah, I think most private, it's like a zero tolerance for any of that stuff. And so probably but you can't kick kids out of, and same with hitting and stuff, but you can't kick kids out of, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Although I have heard at least here, like the opposite, you know, because they pub private schools are money. So, like if your kid is should have like an IEP and doesn't, actually, there was a kid in Rio's preschool, which was private. Um, this kid needed an aid and like an IEP, and uh the parents would not take him to be evaluated, and the school would not kick him out. Four moms went to the director being like, he's like biting our kids. Like, can you do something about this? And they had three other kids at the school. So the answer was nope.

SPEAKER_04 50:24

That's crazy. Well, that's the side same thing at public school, though. We have a situation similar to that with our friends who are dealing with that, and that there's nothing that can be done if the parents refuse an IEP and refuse to have him evaluated.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Really? Mm-hmm. They cannot do anything.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Yeah, public and private.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Like if that's a crazy thing. I don't know. Everybody I know, not everybody, many people I know are in the movement are suing the Los Angeles public school. That's like a soup. There's like like a whole underground um legal fees situation of like people who pub who uh sue the school districts. Whoa, I've never to do with that. And as owing parents sued the school district.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Yeah. That's a podcast series. Yeah. Have you thought about talking to, I'm sure you did, but Emily Auster as an economist on this and partnering in the street?

SPEAKER_00 51:21

In the very beginning, and I feel like she said no. And then I don't think we ever went back to her. But yeah, I mean, I follow her on Instagram. Yeah, she's I think she's she had a lot of hate during the pandemic, actually.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

Still, she gets a lot of hate. I know. We had her on the podcast and we got some mean comments for having her on. Really? Why? Pandemic stuff and yeah, yeah, and yeah, and she gets a lot of hate because she partnered with the free press for her podcast. And so she gets a lot of hate for that as well. Um yeah. Okay, I had another question to ask you. Oh, okay, so I know we don't have a lot of time, but I'm curious. So in doing all of this work, has it changed your relationship with your husband at all? Or yeah. Can you tell us about that?

Marriage, Control, And Letting Help In

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Like 100%. Yeah. And I did talk about this at the end of the show, like briefly, but I think in two ways. So for a long time you can't see, but my desk is like in a corner, and his desk is like across in a different corner. So he listened to like a lot of my interviews, a lot of like the producing meetings that we had. He listened to them. And so, like, I think through osmosis, for real, he like heard a lot of the problems. And so I think he changed his behavior based on like what he was overhearing totally subconsciously. And then I think I also changed my behavior. Like, I'm not letting Rio walk to school by himself yet, but like I was a helicopter parent before this project. I cared that we were first. I cared about being on the PTA. I cared about like him having the best this and the best that, and like never being bored and having a million activities and walking him to school, and his he's like a picky eater, like doing a million tests for his eating. And since the show, uh, a lot of that has changed. In one of the episodes, I talked to a biological anthropologist about this. I don't know if you listened to this part, but it was about this. She's studied for a long time the Chotegore people, which is like a small tribal community. And the point was women do a lot of the work and like outside of the house. And so men end up taking care of the kids for a lot. Oh, and and I was very controlling. That's why this is relevant. And uh like I didn't want help from anybody. I like wanted to suffer through it and like the guilt do all the things like we were talking about. Yeah. And um, the her takeaway from like studying the show de gore was that even what two things, even when women are doing a lot of work, they're still like making the kids lunches and like preparing the day. But the kids' outcome, like psychologically, like in terms of like their body nutrition, blah, blah, blah, do just fine. They do better when the mom is taking care of them, but they do just fine when the dad is taking care of them. And something about that, after listening to that interview like 500 times to prepare for the show, like editing it, something about that like hit me a different way. And it's like, my kids will be just fine. If my mom does it a different way, if my husband does it a different way, if the babysitter does it a different way, like they're gonna be fine. And I think like that was really life-changing for me, honestly. Yeah, I think kids are fine, they're resilient and they grow and they evolve. And like, if they have ice cream for dinner one night, like it's fine. And it took pressure off.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

That's nice that that happened for you. It probably made a lot more lightness in your household.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he stepped in. You know, it's they happened at the same time. He does all the my husband does all the cleaning, he does all the dishes in our house. I cook and he does the dishes and a lot of the laundry. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

We still have a million fights, but I mean, who doesn't? Living with anyone though, and I'm convinced that men and women shouldn't live together. I think that's a whole different topic. We should be living with other women. Um, and then the men come and visit us or we go. You're probably right. I feel like, yeah. But um, yeah, we had a similar thing where I, you know, we we got in a lot of fights, and it was like he's like, I don't have there's no space for me to do what I think is best. And I think that is a similar takeaway where it's like you have to sometimes let up control, but that has to do a lot with like your nervous system regulating and being like trusting and being like, okay, they're gonna be okay because like you don't want anything to happen to your kids.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Yeah. I mean, and you know, I know we're out of time, but and this also is its own whole other conversation, but like it's set up from birth like that way. Like we are responsible for feeding babies from the get. And because of that, you become responsible for their nutritional intake for forever, and then that expands into other things. And like at the core, like, actually, that's a big part of the problem. If you can really create egalitarian feeding systems, like that does kind of even the distribution of work in the very beginning. But it's really hard to do.

SPEAKER_04 56:45

Yeah, especially because pumping is so much work. Yeah, really. Especially if you have a kid who won't take a bottle.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Like I said exactly. It's true. I mean, I don't think there's a solve per se, but like that, like if I have a friend whose kids are adopted and they really divide, like it was a much cleaner division, and they are they parent in a much different way than my family and most families. And I can sort of see it like working in their house. Like the dad and the mom do a lot of things in a way that like a lot of biological families, um, I think it doesn't start that way.

SPEAKER_04 57:22

Well, I mean, you have to think about it. We're doing the pregnancy, so everything we're doing the first part, like you know, nine months of their journey. And so then it just continues. And if you're breastfeeding, it's the next year, two years, three years, and and it just uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

And there's just so much like maternal gate and the sound of your voice that's maternal gate, what your kids are seeking out. The oh, like Adam Gate. Okay. Yeah, they're seeking all of that out for comfort because that's familiar to them.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

And Katie says what she says in her show de gore study is that there are no biological differences as it relates to like raising children between women and men. So like a man can do it. Being like, I'm more forgetful, or like that's a not what men do, like that's made up.

SPEAKER_04 58:12

That is made up. I agree. They have done studies though. The book Mom Jeans talks about it, where the brain actually changes when you give birth. Yes. Um, and the DNA and all of that. So I do believe that from that evidence, but I also believe what you just said that men can do it. It's just yeah, more of an adjustment.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Child rearing skill, like gene that men don't have. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 58:37

Yeah, that a hundred percent. Yeah. We've also been socialized. I mean, our whole lives. I saw a TikTok that I I actually I liked the overall message because this woman was talking about how, you know, we need to stop treating dads like babysitters. And then she goes, Babysitters are not parents, babysitters are teenage girls. And I was like, Well, let's, you know, think about the language here. And I commented and she was very receptive. She was like, Oh my god, you're so right. I, you know, I really should have changed my language.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah. It is when you do it yourself, right? I mean, I've caught myself. My mom and I got into an argument. My dad had a hip replacement recently, and I was kind of giving my mom shit about like not being busy. And she was like, of all people to like not get it. And I was like, Oh, you're so right. Like, what a bitch am I. I just spent two years making the case that like that counts more than anything else. And here I am being like, What are you doing all day long?

Advice, Joy, And Where To Listen

SPEAKER_04 59:38

But it's hard to break when you're yes. I mean, we've been taught. I was raised partially by a single mom, and then when she passed by her husband. And so I remember coming out and people saying, Oh, women do all the grocery shopping, women do all this. And I was like, No, they don't. Like, that's bullshit. Like, my I watched my stepdad do all of that. What are you talking about? And then I started, so I went into the data and I looked at it and I was like, oh shit, like this is maybe I have an empathy problem or something because I was like, I don't believe that at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

But if that was your life, I mean, I get why you wouldn't believe it. They have you guys ever spoken with Barbara Rizman on this show? No. Oh, she's a sociologist in New York. You should. She's really good. Look her up. Um, she talks about the social the socialization. She told a story in my show that's uh she She went to like this like preppy, fancy private preschool and like did a QA with the parents. And she talks a lot about egalitarianism. And she was talking about this mo this woman was like, we are raising our kids like egalitarian. Like that's our whole goal. We do, you know, you can be whatever you want to be. And Barbara's like, who sweeps your house? Like who uses a broom? And the woman was like, Well, me. And she was like, Well, kids learn more from what you're showing them than what you're saying. And it was like, well, we keep showing them that girls are babysitters, then nothing changes about who's a babysitter.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:07

We had something where my uh we were watching our friend's daughter, and she's incredible. And she's been best friends with my son forever. And um he had to go to a swimming lesson, but she stayed with me, right? Because they needed whatever. Anyway, it doesn't matter to the story. But she was like, Oh, we need to cook for the boys. We need to make sure that it's nice and pretty when they get back. It's my job. And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, it is not your job. Like, you do not need to make it special for him. And she's like, I was like, you just being here is special for dinner. And you know, she she was five. And um, but it's a lot about what you witness because her mom is an amazing stay-at-home mom and does literally everything. And I'm like, I told her mom about this too. I was like, oh yeah, she, I was like, yeah, anyway, it was it was one of those things where I'm like, okay, so this is to your point, they do see what you're doing and emulate it and um a lot of it's socialization. And it also made me be like, okay, son, we need to start having you do more. Like I have him do stuff, but like, hey, let's get you more involved. And so, like, now his job is to clean the table and you know, like all these things. And so it is, it is uh interesting. But I know we're at time. So we have two questions that we like to ask at the end of every episode. What advice would you give to somebody if they were your best friend and they're pregnant? Base, I will I want to say, like, based on your experience, but also based on your research and what you did for the show, what advice would you give them? Let other people help you. Great advice.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

I needed that advice. And what's the part of parenting that has brought you unexpected joy? Like overcoming the hard parts, maybe? Yeah, that grit. Yeah. That feeling when you have a really bad bedtime and then they fall asleep, and you're like, Yeah, I did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Yeah. And and like when it's really hard for them, like watching them over, like Rio is having a hard time with something, and like the joy that comes from him like getting over the thing, and then like how it makes me feel as a parent. Like the fight is hard. Like, I'm like, you have to read this book. Like, and I'm like crying about it later, and he's crying about it. And then like he reads the book and passes the test, and it's like, yes, and he feels great about it. And I'm like, I did the right thing. Like the validation of that moment of being like, being a parent is hard and like the hardest thing, probably. And sometimes like the fighting, the fight for success, like is worth it in the end. Uh, it's hard, I think, to remember that sometimes it's so easy to give in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:51

Yeah. That confidence you see on their face when it's like, I can't do the monkey bars, and then they you're like, Yes, you can, and then they do it, and they're like, Yes, I did it. Right. And you're and you're like, Yes, he did it. I was right. Oh, phew, he didn't fall. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here. If people in our audience haven't heard your show and they want to hear it and they want to learn more or they want to follow you, where can they do all of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Well, for right now, it's just the show's called The Work Behind the Work, and it's on wherever you listen to a podcast. W A B E, the uh Atlanta MPR affiliate, is who distributed it. If you haven't listened to it, please go listen to it. We talk about all these things. Um, and then uh my Instagram is just MKPanzer. My name, or no, no, I changed it to just Melissa.panzer for now, but I feel that that's soon changing. So more to come there. All right. So we'll link it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:44

And thank you again for being here. It was a great conversation. Thank you guys.