Lucid Dreaming Explained: Exploring the Dream World with Giorgia Bettili

What happens when you become conscious inside your dreams?

In this episode, I’m joined by Giorgia Bettili to explore lucid dreaming, dream awareness, consciousness, and the deeper meaning of the dream world. We discuss techniques for lucid dreaming, dream recall, spiritual perspectives on dreams, and how dreamwork can support healing and self-discovery.

Giorgia Bettili information

Website: www.lucidmindhypnotherapy.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/lucid_mind_hypnotherapy/

FB: https://www.facebook.com/lucidmind.therapy/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucidmindhypnotherapy

To check out her lucid dreaming offers: 

https://lucidmindhypnotherapy.com/lucid-dreaming-hypnosis/

Work with Aericka Khongdy : https://www.holistichealingwithaericka.com/

Follow us on:
instagram @curious_mystics_podcast
Facebook - Curious Mystics Podcast 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello, welcome back. It is Erica from Curious Mystics Podcast. Today we're stepping into a space that most of us visit every single night but rarely consciously explore. And we're talking about the dream world and more specifically, lucid dreaming. And which is the ability to become aware that you're dreaming while you're still inside the dream. We've done kind of an episode about this in the past, but not really dove into it uh specifically. So today uh we're going to explore the lucid dreaming world much more specifically, and we're gonna do that with uh Georgia here. Um so I want to welcome Georgia uh who has experience with lucid dreaming and exploring the dream space in a conscious way. So uh welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Thank you. Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, I'm so excited that you're here. So can you tell us a little bit more about you and how you got into lucid dreaming?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Okay, so I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and I went I arrived to the lucid dreaming world through actual meditation. So I was really into Buddhist meditation, and whilst I was living in a monastery, I came across a book, and the book was titled Um The Tibetan Book of Dreaming. And I was like uh suddenly really interesting about the title Dream Yoga. So from there, yeah, I dive into the lucid dreaming world and expand a little bit. So not only in the dream yoga context, but more uh generally about technique, so including also Western technique, how to get lucid. Um and the dream world uh moved me also into the hypnotherapy world. So thanks to lucid dream, I actually started studying also hypnotherapy. And when I completed my course and I started practicing, I wanted to mix the two words together because I noticed that one uh some of the skills that has been used, the technique that has been used for lucid dreaming, are actually taken from hypnosis. So in my practice, I wanted to mix the two. So in one on one side, I'm a clinical hypnotherapy working with uh all sorts of uh issues, can be sleep, fear and phobia, weight management. And then there is the other side of my work, and I call myself a dream coach, because we are we explore the dream world from uh a hypnotherapy and hypnosis side. So through hypnosis and hypnotherapy, we can go into a state that is more relaxed and more connected with our subconscious mind, and through this state we can speak more directly and access the language of dream. The language of dream is the same language the subconscious uses to communicate with us. So the subconscious can use, of course, imagery, symbol, metaphor, emotion, but also dreams. So that's that it's clearly very connected. So the two words um hypnotherapy and dreaming are still part of the same uh language, the subconscious language.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, the subconscious is is so fascinating, and we're still just kind of like getting bits and pieces of how to access that and why to access that, and then you know what we what benefits we get from it. So it's just so fascinating, the whole thing. So can you explain a little bit what lucid dreaming is?

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, so I think you define it very well at the beginning. Lucid dreaming is the ability to become aware that we are dreaming while we are still in the dream state. So we are not talking about waking up the next morning and then recollect with a retrospective memory what we have dreamt the night before. That is dream recollection, dream recall. We are talking about being already inside the dream during the night, we are dreaming, and then suddenly we notice something that is not quite right. Um, and with that level of doubt, we can trigger that self-awareness mindset that is telling us this is there is something strange here, this is not our normal reality. And that doubt can finally trigger this sense of, hey, this is a dream. And suddenly you are stepping into the dream state with full consciousness, and this is called lucid dreaming. How does it feel that? Essentially, it's a 3D reality where you're fully conscious, with your tendentially 90% of the time you have your body as well. Some people dream without their body, there are some cases, and it's almost like if you ever tried a VR headset, is exactly that. Like you, your visual, your experience is a 3D reality, but on one side of your mind, there is the awareness that this is actually not the reality. So you are aware that it's not real.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

That that sounds so like um uh is it scary like at any point that you're like, oh my gosh, this is not real, but this is real, or it's because you're in control It's not scary anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

It is actually yeah, it is not scary at all. Actually, it's the opposite because you are aware, even if you find yourself in situations that can be fearful or scary in a normal dream, because you are aware that this actually is a dream, you actually find yourself in a kind of safer space. However, there is the opposite problem, it's like you get too excited, you know? It can be like, oh wow, this is such an exciting state, and then this enthusiasm and this uh like uh acchileration pull you out of the dream, and then you wake up in the in the door in the reality, you know. So that is something that happened mainly at the beginning stage where you still didn't stabilize the dream state, and that is something that happens uh often. But then there are state there are techniques where you can stabilize the dream and then stay into the dream state uh lucidly and actually carry on what what is your dream plan, what you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

You know, just popped into my head was the movie was the Inception. Have you ever seen that movie? They keep talking about this movie, and yeah, a lot of people say it's great. Yeah, yeah. I just I wonder if it's like anything like lucid dreaming because I've never I don't think that I've ever had lucid dreaming. About the only thing I could think of is like when I was like younger, I used to um talk in my sleep, but like I would have whole scenarios, but I would know that I was talking, and so I'd like shut up, go back to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah, I don't know if no, but you were aware of true state at the same time, right? Uh yeah, there is a state that is called like a splitting consciousness, so you can be in the dream state and at the same time being aware that of your dream body in the bed and what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

So this is a kind of yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never I've never experienced it, so it's just like really, really interesting. So, how can you get yourself to that point? Or like, I guess, like how do you can how can you do that?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Like, how can you start losing? First, I want to mention my my personal experience. So I'm not uh uh not uh coming here with like being the super uh kid, you know, that started lucid dreaming since they were a kid and they managed to dream and now they can lucid dream every day. I'm not like that. I'm I had to learn it the hard way, you know. So until I was in the late, my late 20s, I couldn't recollect any dream. So it's something that I had to learn. And I want to mention this because it is important to remind ourselves that lucid dreaming is a skill. And like any other skill, we can learn it. Okay, so this is good to remind ourselves because sometimes you go and listen to some people and they are really astonishing lucid dreamer, but they've been practicing since they are kids, and you think, oh, I don't have that skill, I'm not naturally gifted, so I won't be able to do it. No, you can. And this is like my example is you can train yourself. So the first bit, how to start. This is the basic. We are all different, we have techniques that are more suitable than uh for others than other people, but for sure we need to start with the dream recall. This is the basic. Everyone has to do it. So dream recalling means that we need to build it up. Okay, if we don't remember our dream, it's almost impossible that we get lucid inside them, right? So we need to build that. So the first step, uh, I always recommend to start a dream practice that is taking and buying a nice uh diary, for example, something that is fancy, something that we like, something that we give importance to, and then place that diary next to our bed with a nice pen, maybe. Now, this is the old style version. There is there are also more uh technological versions. You can, for example, record your voice as soon as you wake up. There are other ways to record your dream that could be like using one of the apps. There are apps where you can just um record your dreams, and these apps are very useful because they can um highlight some symbols that are recording your dream. So it's up to you really how people want to record them. But the important things, and that's what I really recommend, is that is the first things that you do as soon as you wake up. Okay? Because the problem is that most our life is very fast, fast-paced, right? And we are not trained to give importance to dream. So as soon as we have the alarm going on, our mind is already racing on the to-do list of the day. So we are not sitting down a little bit quiet and just take that five, ten minutes to just bring to mind some imageries, some metaphors, something that comes up from our dream state. So we need to train to do that.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

So in in shamanic practice, uh I've learned about the Sanoi dream technique. Um, and so I've done that a number of times, and also I've journeyed to the land of the dreams. And to do that, I've had to remember dreams, obviously. And I was taught to like as soon as you wake up in the middle of the night, like even just start writing. Like, don't even wait till the morning, because you think every single time, oh, I'm gonna remember in the morning, and then you wake up, you're like, nope, absolutely not. So I don't know if that's something you recommend that if you do wake up in the middle of the night. No, what you said is true.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

It's just that I don't recommend it to everyone, like uh because some people have difficulty falling asleep, or if they start disrupting the sleep cycle, it may be not a good idea. Okay, so if you are a heavy sleeper, you never had a problem falling asleep, you never suffer from insomnia or uh in general difficulty in sleeping, great. If you wake up, you need to go to the toilet, for example, is a natural awakening in the night, and suddenly you have a uh you recall something, definitely write it down. What I suggest don't turn on full-on light and write it all down, but just write some keyword so the next day when you want to write it down, you remember from the keyword. So it doesn't wake you up too much. That's a great idea. I've been doing that for a while. But for example, now having a partner, I had to find ways not to wake him up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

So I bought a pen. Yeah, I bought a pen and actually it light up. So the light is only on the pen, and that was my um my way to get around that problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially, if someone doesn't suffer of sleep issues or disrupting the sleep is not an issue, great, they can write a keyword during the night. If not, just setting the intention the night before going to sleep. You set the intention tomorrow, I will remember my dream. Tomorrow I remember my dream. Yeah, okay, or you can tell yourself, yeah, I have a wonderful dream recall. Okay, so just before going to sleep, we are affirming this sentence for ourselves, priming our subconscious to give us some memory, some dreams so that we can recall.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, I like that. That's really good advice. Kind of like, you know, I think intention kind of gets thrown around a lot in a lot of scenarios, but it really does work and it really is important in so many different situations. So I like that setting the intention beforehand. Um, all right, so we're recording our dreams. Then what?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Okay, so we are building up the practice and we are aiming at at least one dream per night, okay? There will be always then or the night where we are too tired to do some dream work, so fair enough. So the next part will be to start to bring that mindset during daytime. Okay, so it's a practice that we carry we do in the nighttime, but without training that mindset during the day, it is almost impossible to bring something that we don't have training for into the night. So it's a matter of bringing that awareness, that self-awareness. So there are different techniques. One of the most famous techniques, well known, is the technique of the reality check. So one of uh like Robert Wagoner and uh um Charlie Morley, they speak a lot about that. Uh, it's not my technique, but I want to speak about that anyway because it's quite well known. And it's like watching the palm of your hand and then watching away and then re-watching them. Okay, this is called reality check. We can do that multiple times during the day. When we watch the first time, we observe, then we watch away and then re-watch as a way to check the reality. The dream state is very subtle and is very flickering. It keeps moving, it keeps changing. So, in a dream state, if you do that, you look at your hand once and then redo the second time, they will never be the same. Or at least 99% of the time they are not the same. Okay, so this is a way to recheck that you are actually dreaming. Now you need to do that in this reality during the daylight, day daytime, because uh you start putting that uh a kind of um routine into your mind, and this is the routine of keep checking over and over your hand. So it is possible that after you do 10, 20, 30 times every day, then in the night you suddenly find yourself watching your hand, and already that uh movement, that visual of watching the hand is triggering your uh your uh like memory of reminding to ask yourself, is this a dream? Okay, and then you can recheck.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

So you're just saying to so you're just saying, like, just throughout the day, just oh look at my hand the way oh look at my hand, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

However, randomly does it with a certain mindset, okay? So it becomes not just a record, just oh, I watch my hand and that's it, has to be like something connected with a mindset to to check the reality, okay? So this mindset is the ability to reflect to is a self-um self-reflected awareness, okay? So we need to be able to pause and say, can this be a dream? Or is this a dream? Okay, is a real question. I know that it sounds absurd, it sounds stupid when you know, oh, of course. But the problem is that while we are in the dream, for us, it is almost like, oh, it's normal. Oh, there is a pink elephant flying in the sky. It's normal for us. Unless you have trained this self-reflective awareness, we will go on with the dream. And that's the point. We need to do to train that mindset. Okay? So this is one technique watching the hand as a reality check. What I personally do, I don't use hand, I just use the mindset. And that for me is enough. Okay. So again, we're talking about many times in the day opening your senses, look around around for a few seconds, doesn't have to be long. And then to check the reality, step backward and say, Is this a dream? Okay, so I'm questioning, I'm priming my my mind to check reality very often. Some people put even an alarm every hour, they have a baby, they remind them to check the reality. Okay, so it's up to you how people want to do it. Something that I found very I find very useful is to um either use an alarm, so you are forced to do it, or stop one second, two seconds. You just need to be quick, but has to be um thought of, you know, just not not something oh, I have to do it, and you're not really testing your reality. Okay. Another thing is you can attach and anchor this uh state, this um reality test, with some normal um daily activity. So every time you sip some water, I will remember to check reality. Okay. Again, this is something that I do in my hypnotherapy when people come to me for lucid dreaming, because through hypnosis, we can go in a deeper state, and then I can anchor that to that, you know. So it's for for the people it's easier to remember. However, I've done even without hypnosis hypnosis, okay? It's just that hypnosis, it's easier as to anchor this, and then it's also um individual, okay? Because the person tells me what they want to anchor to. It's not me telling them you need to every time you seep the water. You tell me it can be every time you turn on the light, every time you pass through a door, you know, it can be whatever you want, okay? And then in the hypnotherapy session, we can anchor that action with the mindset of lucidity.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah. Okay, that's cool. That's good to know. I guess, yeah, that makes sense to have an anchor like that, because then you can just kind of like switch your mind to it easier. Because you're it's something that you've kind of put in there already. In the subconscious.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

So it's easy to forget, you know. So it's like so. That's why we need to anchor to something is more useful because how do we remember? Well, we remember only through our motivation, you know. If we have a strong motivation, it will pop up, but also through anchoring, through daily action. You know, we need to find the ways to remembering because it's not easy. Our mind is distracted most of the time. So we need to find ways to remember, to be present, to be aware, and to bring this state of lucidity into the daily life.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Have you ever heard where you don't ask what the time is in a dream? Have you ever heard that? Because then it like disrupts the then everybody, because everybody in the dream then looks at you or something like that. Yeah. Supposedly if you ask the time in a dream, then all like the dream, some the dream state knows you're not real or something. I don't know. It's something weird, like it's like you don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

When people say don't do it, I'm going to do it. Unless it's something a math, I'm going to try because I need to try myself.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. Supposedly it like halts the whole dream, and everybody like every quote unquote everything that's in the dream knows you're not part of the dream or something. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

I mean, there are different kinds of dream characters that we can. Encounter, okay. What I've done is more like about asking dream cart, what do you represent? Because 98% of what we encounter in a dream, normal dream or lucid dream, whatever it is, is part of our mind. Okay, so they represent some part, they have some meaning behind behind their representation. Now there are some cart that are just there. They're just there, they are they are nothing and just filling, just filling the space, you know. Whilst other they have really something to tell you and something to express, there is some meaning, there is uh some significance behind their presence. So even there, you never know how character react.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Have you done where you've done one of these lucid dreams, and let's say that it seemed like it was kind of a negative experience, but when you ask, like you said, ask the character in the dream what the message was, it turned out to actually be something positive. Like it and but the way your mind is interpreting at the time during the dream, it was negative?

SPEAKER_02 23:03

So I think that this is recollecting a lot, uh reconnecting a lot with um uh shadow work. So that's what one of the main things I do in lucid dreaming actually, and I recommend people to do if uh if they can, because you can so the negative can be like for example, there are two things to say. First, if you have a nightmare, it's it can be really a good trigger for lucid dreaming because you have a strong emotion and you don't want to be there, right? Now, instead of waking up from the nightmare, you can use that strong emotion to turn around and say, I don't want to be here. Is it possible that this monster is uh is attacking me? You know, something like that. You trigger it's much it's easier, it's actually the easier doorway to lucid dreaming, the nightmares themselves. Okay now you mentioned to turn around, and that is what we can do, uh people can do with shadow work inside of the lucid dreaming themselves. So you can ask the character itself so instead of running away, as you we would normally do in a nightmare or in an anxiety dream, we would run away, right? We can turn around and say, What do you represent? Because that monster, that uh fear or whatever is represented with, it is part of your mind. And what is it? It can be a part that we have suppressed that we don't want to recognize, that we don't want to acknowledge, to appreciate, you know, and it transforms in a form that is fearful for us because we've been running away. So it everything in the dream is very symbolic, okay? Whether it's a normal dream or lucid dream, everything is symbolic. So we need to understand that that symbol can be something else that we need to investigate. So something nice to do is really interesting to do is turning around, asking what do they represent, to understand what are the fear, what is the message behind. And like you said, when you start already speaking to that fear, to that symbol, to that image, things start changing. Okay? There is also something else that you could do, and this is like sending love, this love, this acceptance, that turn that figure will either disappear or turn into something else. And this is shadow integration. So we are integrating our internal monster, transforming there uh with love. Like that now it depends on the person if they have like a religious belief, some spiritual um, because some people can even send mantra, you know, mantra of love, words of love, or some or simply like energy, loving energy, acceptance, and that turn.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah, that shadow work integration is like, yeah, oh, that hit me. Like that was so powerful. That's so like, yeah. I could I could just see how because I mean people do shadow work, right? I mean, a lot of people do shadow work, this integration piece, and then being able to do it on a subconscious level is so I can see it just being so powerful.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah, exactly. So the the same uh things we can do with technique, like you said, you work with shamanic, so I'm sure they they work with a a lot with integration and shadow integration. Yeah. The same we can do in uh lucid dreaming. So I do similar things in hypnotherapy, and what I want uh often say they are similar states because we are bringing consciousness into the subconscious, right? So we bring up this subconscious material and then we bring some awareness into it. However, lucid dreaming is heightened awareness. So we are talking about things that a state of awareness that is even more difficult, more subtler to reach, okay? So if you can do that shadow work in the lucid dreaming, I believe is more powerful than hypnotherapy self. However, 100% I think I agree. However, there is still the chance to work as I'm not that if you don't have lucid dreaming, you cannot work in the shadow. Absolutely not, you know. But there are just a different level of uh awareness, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah, because I I guess you could explain like kind of the difference between hypnosis and lucid dreaming, because I've had hypnosis. Um, but and for me, I think you kind of still know that you're in reality, you know what I mean? Like you still because it's usually done while you're waking. So I feel like maybe there's a little bit of that disconnect knowing that you're still conscious, so to speak, even though you're hypnotized. Um, versus like if you're sleeping, I imagine that you're sleeping and you know you're sleeping, so it's a little different level of consciousness.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

I don't know if I'm making sense, but in some way, though, is is a good sign that we are still aware that we are hypnotized, but actually you're never hypnotized. It's you that decided to get a little bit into trance, okay? It's all a self-hypnosis. Right. But uh, yeah, there is always a part of us that is protecting, okay? That is saying, hey, if you don't want to do what uh what is happening, you can always come out and not do it. It's a good sign, it's a protective thing. So yeah, somehow in hypnotherapy and hypnosis, you always know that you are in this reality. There are states that are so deep that people go really deep. I saw only one person doing that, and it's almost like she didn't want to come out, you know. So I had to call her a few times. She was really going deep. She she enjoyed it so much. But in general, no, it's quite like you said, it's light. You can always come out every time you want, and you know that you are uh in this reality. Now, the dream state, somehow you are still aware because you are in the dream. And if you want to come out of the dream, you can. Because you still have the potential to say, I'm going too exciting, I'm doing something. Some people start uh uh fix like one way to get out of the dream state is like to fixate your eyes on one object and keep your eyes still. Because we are in REM sleep and the eye flickering from right to left, as soon as you force your life or eyes to stay still in the dream state, this is triggering a stillness in your the reality state, let's say your body, and so you are you've been kicked, you are kicked out from the dream. However, usually people have got the opposite problem. They want to stay longer in the dream state, and it's quite difficult to stabilize. So the difficulty is not really to not be able to get out, but it's more to stay. Now, in terms of similarity between hypnosis and lucid dreaming, there are quite a few in the sense that in hypnosis we are accessing a deeper level of consciousness. We're just getting more relaxed, and relaxing that kind of conscious beta waves we are getting into what researchers so define as alpha and alpha and theta. I always confuse with the other alpha and theta wave. Okay, so first alpha and then theta a little bit deeper, okay? That alpha and theta wave are the same waves that we encounter in that state that is between um being awake and falling asleep. You know, when we start drifting off into sleep before it's actually called sleep, there is a pre-sleep state that is called hypnagogia hypnagogia. Yeah. And there we can have the same identical state that we have in hypnosis. Okay, so that's why it's very powerful when I said uh earlier to send some affirmation on that state. I have a wonderful dream recall, I remember my dream tonight. That's perfect state because you are in in hypnosis naturally before falling asleep. So you're very susceptible, and you can uh send some messages. You can also send messages or what you want to dream, okay? Please send me some guidance tonight. And then see what happened in your dreams.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah, uh after doing like kind of a lot of work, uh shamanic work, sometimes we'll say, Send me a healing dream. Yeah, that's very good.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, and it's amazing how more we work with our uh dream world, our subconscious mind, and more we receive messages and dreams. Um, and that's what I notice really is not only about lucid dreaming. I start, as I mentioned at the beginning, I start with lucid dreaming, and I was fixating with that. But more I get into this world, and more I think that also normal dreams have got a lot to say, and they can solve so much even subconsciously. You just let the subconscious do the work, like you said, healing dream. You're doing some healing, even if it's not losing, there is healing happening. You ask for it, and the subconscious is giving to you back. So it's quite powerful, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

So let me ask you this. So when you're in the lucid dream, can you control the dream or is that more like kind of like co-creating?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Good question. Good question. Yeah, because I think it's one of the misconceptions. I heard a lot of people defining lucid dream. Instead of calling them lucid dreaming, they call dream control. Ah, I heard about dream control. It was like, oh, I don't like that word. Why? Because uh the controlling in our uh in our language means like uh um it's got a negative connotation, right? It seems like there is the will to power.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah, yeah, like control, yeah, like uh yeah, like direction, like yeah, like yeah, in charge of so yeah, it is exactly the opposite because you are in the subconscious mind.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

There is no ego will. I mean you have some will, you have some choices, you can change things, absolutely, but control is sound like you are in the power of this world. No, it doesn't work like that. And as soon as you start lucid dreaming, people start realizing how difficult it actually is to actually do what you want to do. Because there is always there are barriers, there are things that are you are not allowed to do, um, there are things that you are not ready to do, so that your subconscious mind is not allowing you to do. So I never use the the term control. Like you said, it's more co-co what you said, co-creative. Uh that's that's that's really a nice word. So, yeah, I use also the word surrender that maybe some people don't like, but it is a kind of you set the intention, you set the direction, absolutely. Like once you are lucid, you can decide what to do. Like I have my dream plan, I always do my dream plan. So there is an action, there is a doing, but there is also a calling for the um for what you want to do. Like, for example, you want to work on shadow work, calling for your shadow, and then let the dream give you what they want to give you, what it wants to give you, right? So it's not you making up, right? Making up the shadow, making up the place, is you calling for what would you like? I want some healing on this uh area of my life, and you see what's happening in the dream. So it's a little bit of surrender in the sense that you let the dream show you the metaphor and the messages that you need to see in that moment, really.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

What's been one of kind of your more powerful experiences in that space?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah, so there are many, but it's always difficult to recollect the um okay. So I tell you something that so we touched also because we already touched a little bit about the shadow work. So something that I learned from Charlie Morley is about the golden shadow. So the golden shadow is similar to shadow work in the sense that it's uh suppressed material. But instead of being suppressed material that we dislike, it is the suppressed must um suppressed potential that we have suppressed in our life. It could be because it could be like, for example, in childhood, I always put I always give the example, it could be like you like dancing, okay? And then someone, an adult, tell you, oh, dancing is uh is not a job, it's stupid, right? So you leave dancing even if it was your passion as a child, because someone put into your subconscious mind that is wrong, that is stupid, that is not uh for uh adult. Right. Yeah. You can't. Okay, so that is you can't make money doing that, like yeah, that's girly, you know, whatever. Yeah, this is an example, it can be whatever, okay. But we suppress somehow our potential, our gift. Uh, we body it into self-limiting beliefs and other beliefs that we grew up with, and we learn uh during uh mainly childhood, but it can be even later. So I said, I'm going to work in my golden shadow because I know that it's suppressed, I know that there is something that needs to be done. So as uh you get I got I get elusive into the dream, and then I call my golden shadow. Come come to me, you know, golden shadow now. Uh so I heard other people doing that, and I heard this beautiful statue full of gold appearing and shining, you know. So, in some way, in my mind, there is some expecting something like that, okay? So you expect this magnificent, and what you show up is a little baby, three years old. Um quite big for being a three year old, but a baby. And when I look at him, he has got Down syndrome, and I was like, oh so what is the symbol behind that? Whatever it was, yeah, I want to complete some healing, right? I have my golden shadow, it's showing up as a child, so he didn't grow up. So it's tell the sh the dream is telling me your shadow is a little bit repressed, is still three years old, and has got the Down syndrome in the sense that there is something that it didn't uh I don't know. I I need to think about the meaning of that, but has to be something connecting maybe with um your full potential is not there yes, right? Um this is my metaphor, okay? It's not something that created, something just pop up like that. So what I do, I hold the baby and I send love and I cuddle it and just do this uh kind of inner inner child integration really with that uh shadow work. So this one was very powerful. Um, but the story doesn't finish there because that I said, okay, I heal a little bit my golden shadow. After one year, I remember again I said, hmm, my golden shadow. I I don't know how it is now, you know. One year has passed by, it would be nice to double check how it is going. Uh so again I called the golden shadow, and this time there is an eight-year-old child with another child, and they are playing together. And for me to see that, look, it didn't have a Down syndrome, he was older, he was growing and was happy playing with another person, another child. So for me, that I didn't have to do any healing or anything. It was like a showing up that there was some work I was doing that was slowly showing up and increasing and letting my golden shadow grow, you know, and blossom. It takes time, you know. That was one year afterwards. But it takes time to do healing. We know that, you know, it's like integration takes time, and and this is amazing. For me, it was like, oh, I double check, it's still going on, you know?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

I I like that because I'm trying to think like that going back to it to see where where where the progress is. Do you need do you need help still or whatever? That's really cool. I don't I don't think I really I'm like, oh, I did the work I'm fine. You know, like it's that's interesting. I like I like the idea of that. Yeah. So so when it comes to that sort of thing, this kind of leads me to another question is that do you feel like kind of like this lucid dreaming and in hypnosis is just kind of brain-based, like it's subconscious, it's like something scientific, or do you feel like it's something more kind of like I don't know what your beliefs are, but like spirit or or you know, whatever, like something like that. Do you think it's more or is it a combination?

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Uh that it depends on the person. There are people who take lucid dreaming very scientifically. There is loads of research going on, and I think it's good there is research going on uh because it supports uh it gives a little bit more uh uh in our in our society. If science doesn't prove something, we don't believe it. I don't I I don't have I don't need that, but a lot I mean the majority is like that. Science is becoming the new God, you know. 200 years ago, God would say that and everyone would say, yes, God said that. Now science needs it. Now there is a positive part of the science that wants to be scientific and prove things, but sometimes I find that they won't prove things that are already obvious, you know, like lucid dream. Of course it is that because once you prove it, it's almost like to tell someone you're not conscious because you cannot prove it. It's like I am conscious, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

It's like there is nothing to right, yeah. Yeah, I feel like especially when it comes to like brain things, I feel like we just don't understand all of it because it's so complicated.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I know that some people would won't agree with me, but I feel like, for example, there is another thing I noticed, is like uh every time we talk about mind, a lot of people use brain. So brain for them is interchangeable with mind. Uh and I like for me, it's like no brain, uh so mind rides on the brain, for sure, and that's why I'm talking about uh alpha delta brain waves, because we can see the brain waves, and it's useful to notice when we reach some stages. Like in a research setting, we can see through the brain wave where we are at, we are at, and it's good for also for medical reasons. So I don't want to dismiss research, it's great, but for me, I'm more like you said, I'm more on the spiritual side. So for me, mind is a little bit more than just brain. Okay, so there is something much deeper on that. So I don't want to be just tangled into scientific and say, ah, if it's not proved, I cannot tell you. Because, for example, I come from I came to lucid dreaming through Buddhist practice, and we are talking a practice that is 2,000 years old at least, and they've been doing without any, they didn't need any research, they just need the research they did directly with their mind. So when you have direct experience, you don't need research, scientific research to tell you that it's right. You know yourself. And there is a tradition also passing by the teaching from teacher to student, you know, and from generation to generation, and that that is very valuable.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Yeah. Oh yeah, I agree with you. I've I've seen so many things in like my shamanic journeying and um meditation that like I didn't make that up. Like I there's no way that like that, but it's also there's no way I can. Can get someone to scientifically like quantify what I'm seeing or doing or feeling either. Like it's like you might be able to see my brain when he was doing stuff, but like you're not gonna see the images or you know the messages that I'm hearing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

So it doesn't have to be spiritual. So I spoke a lot about uh shadow work or golden shadow work. So this is more psychological, right? It's integrating part of yourself can be spiritual. If someone has got a spiritual practice, why not to start meditating in the dream, doing yoga, qigong into the dream? How does it feel? What what does what is going to happen? You know, if you have mantra recitation, start reciting mantra, it happened to me. I start reciting some mantra, and suddenly I've been pulled out into space, and there is a choir of angelic voice chanting the mantra with me. I mean, there are amazing experiences going. I mean, we can really amazing experience, but it depends what is your meaning, your motivation, lucid dreaming. A lot of people I met, they want to meet a deceased person because they want to send a message or receive a message from someone, and that that's a great motivation, you know. We want to meet that person again and see how they are doing, what they need to tell us, you know. So there are different meditations. And I think it's important that everyone approach the practice as they feel it right, okay? So it doesn't matter if someone tells you to do the shadow work. If you don't feel it is right, if you're not feeling interested in that, it will never drive you into the practice. You need to have something that keeps you motivated. So whatever it is for the person to be something important, something strong, but it's something also that is aligned with uh the person.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Do you feel that it's that people can kind of just start doing this, or do you recommend that they see someone to kind of teach them how to do this safely for lack of a better word, or correctly, or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Uh lucid dreaming is like hypnosis, it's safe. Okay. There are many misconceptions. I saw a lot of fears around, but it's safe. The only thing I say though, there are people that I would discourage to do that. And there are people that suffer from psychosis, severe personality disorder, and every condition where you cannot really understand the difference between, you know, you cannot see the difference between reality, you struggle a little bit with the reality. That's that can become dangerous. And that's what I wouldn't treat even with hypnotherapy in hypnosis. I would say no, because uh you are playing a little bit with your consciousness, okay? So you need to be grounded in that sense. Yeah. If you already struggle to distinguish what is reality or not, uh you have psychotic disorder and things like that, then it becomes a little bit dangerous. Yeah. So that I would discourage in that case.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, that would not be good. No, it can be dangerous, I think, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

So you can definitely I want to add, maybe not many people speak about ethics. It's something like uh I know that it can be boring in this society, right? Speak about the ethics, but I think it's so important, uh, right? Yeah, but it's important. And uh so when we are aware in the dream state, we think we can do whatever we want because it's a dream state. And I heard uh really uh um I was shocked by this. It was in a podcast, and these uh this woman is an amazing lucid dreamer, and she was uh telling the story that someone approached her uh because he wanted to learn lucid dreaming to kill someone in the dream. I was shocked because like why someone wants to do something like that? Now think about Okay, first, why are you telling people? Why people want to do that? And also put a lot of effort for doing something like that. So my first uh reaction is that well, shocked the first reaction, but is that maybe your subconscious won't even let you do. Okay? We need to remind yourself ourselves that the subconscious protects us, you know. So maybe if it's something that is bad for you, uh maybe it will protect the person to not doing and not being able to do. But also be careful because we are dealing with a very, very subtle level of consciousness. Okay, so whatever we implant and we do on that state is going to stay with us. And maybe that's only a belief, but uh, if you when you play with subtle level of conscious, uh you need to be careful that is a line, that is uh for your well-being and for the well-being of other people. So it's important to say, do something that you would like to do, okay? That if for the benefit of yourself and others, I think.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. Well, like in shamanism, we uh one of the ethical things that we do is you can't um just do a healing on someone who doesn't ask for it. Or, you know, you can't just like do things on people that aren't asking for it. You can't ask questions for someone who hasn't asked you to ask that question, you know. So Yeah, that's very important. It's just not they may not want it, so it's not not something that we recommend you do. Very cool. Um, all right. Well, I think we got a lot of really cool information, and I and I was this was so fascinating. Um, and I really want to learn more about it. So um if someone wants to work with you, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_02 49:38

So I have my website um lucidmindhypnotherapy.com. Uh, you can find me also on Instagram um lucid slash mind slash hypnotherapy or on Facebook, Lucid Mind Hypnotherapy. I am in LinkedIn as well, but in general, these are the main uh social network and the main website. I offer one-to-one lucid dreaming with hypnosis session. There is a program, one is a four session and the other is a six session. Uh it is more for people that maybe has got already the basics and they want to go a little bit deeper, exploring like another way to uh towards lucid dreaming with hypnosis. So I'm putting together a micro course, like it would be like a kind of email course where in 10 days you can get really the basics. So, because people are busy, and I have a great book to recommend, okay? But maybe reading a book in your in a busy time of your life, it maybe is not the right thing to do. Maybe you want to do it in a few months once you want to dive deeper. So this 10 days uh course has got the idea of giving you the basics, just coming into your um email box, and then uh um there will be also some audio, like a 10-15 minutes audio, hypnosis the audio. So, on top of the knowledge, basic knowledge, you can have also some audio to listen before going to sleep. That would be the idea. Um, and this is a way to speed up the process so you can actually start. You have like a because it doesn't take long to start writing your dream, right? It's just to add that little bit, that little bit of knowledge of technique uh because there are more than than the reality check I mentioned, okay? So there are more techniques, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Of course, yeah. Yeah, awesome. Well, I highly recommend it. It was been so much fun to talk to you, and I got a lot of information, and yeah, love to it was lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Thank you so much. Brilliant job.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

You're welcome. Uh, and as usual, uh until next time, stay connected and stay curious.