Season 2 Episode 8 - Different Brains at Work: Communication, Advocacy & Inclusive Leadership

In this episode of Black Girl, Brown Girl… Squirrel!, Shai and Alexis unpack Neurodiversity at work, workplace communication, self-advocacy, and inclusive leadership. 

From communication mismatches to accommodations to allyship, they share practical ways leaders can better support Neurodivergent employees and create workplaces where different brains can thrive. 

Because sometimes the issue is not performance. Sometimes the instructions were clear as mud. 🐿️

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 — Opening and setting up the workplace conversation
06:17 — Corporate jargon, acronyms, and learning the language of business
17:46 — Dyscalculia and navigating number-heavy workplace expectations
26:24 — How Neurodivergent communication gets misread at work
30:57 — Communication mismatch or performance problem?
40:24 — Practical leadership tools: agendas, clarity, and communication preferences
47:04 — Self-advocacy, PDA, ADHD, and asking for what you need
53:53 — ADA accommodations, credibility, and workplace allyship
60:49 — Why Neuroinclusion benefits workplace culture and business results
63:58 — Closing thoughts 

ACRONYMS AND TERMS USED IN THIS EPISODE

Accruals
Accounting entries that recognize income when it is earned and expenses when they are incurred, rather than only when money is received or paid.

ADA — Americans with Disabilities Act
A United States civil-rights law that protects qualified people with disabilities from discrimination. In employment, a reasonable accommodation may involve changing a job process, work environment, or customary practice so a qualified employee can perform essential functions and access equal employment opportunities.

ADHD — Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
A neurodevelopmental condition involving persistent differences in attention regulation, activity level, impulse control, organization, or executive functioning. Traits begin in childhood and can continue into adulthood.

AP — Accounts Payable
Money the organization owes to vendors, contractors, or suppliers.

AR — Accounts Receivable
Money customers or clients owe the organization for products or services already provided.

AuDHD
An informal community term describing the experience of being both Autistic and ADHD. It is not a separate clinical diagnosis.

AVP — Associate Vice President
A corporate leadership title. Its level, responsibilities, and authority can vary significantly between companies and industries.

Dyscalculia
A learning difference that can make it difficult to understand number concepts, perform calculations, estimate quantities, or work comfortably with numerical information. It does not reflect a person’s intelligence or overall capability.

PDA — Pathological Demand Avoidance / Persistent Drive for Autonomy
A term used for a pattern in which demands or perceived loss of autonomy may trigger strong avoidance or distress. It is commonly discussed as a profile associated with autism, although it is not a separate formal diagnosis in the DSM-5.

RFP — Request for Proposal
A formal request inviting vendors or service providers to submit a proposed solution, scope, timeline, and price for a project.

RESOURCES

Mental Health Resources

• 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline
• Therapy for Black Girls
• Inclusive Therapists
• Clinicians of Color

Neurodivergent Resources

• ADDitude Magazine
• Attention Deficit Disorder Association (ADDA)
• Association for Autism & Neurodiversity (AANE)
• The Color of Autism Foundation
•  Understood
• Job Accommodation Network (JAN)

CONNECT WITH US

Fan Page: Fanlist.com/BGBGSquirrel 

IG: @BGBGSquirrel

Threads: @BGBGSquirrel

Email: BGBGSquirrel@Gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey hey, welcome to Black Girl Brown Girl Squirrel, your go-to spot for women of color that are neurodivergent. We're your hosts, Shy and Alexis, to Neurodivergent Sister Friends just trying to figure it all out.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

So grab your favorite snack, sit back, relax, and let's squirrel together.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

How are you this stormy day? Um I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

As I just told you, I just woke up from a nap.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

So I'm out here.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Um I'm definitely alive. Awaken.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

You're definitely alive.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah, yeah. We'd have other problems as well. How is this happening? Um yeah. I'm still waking up, but it's good. It's a good uh rest day.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I heard that. I'm glad you had a nice little nap. I hope you get a little some something in from me. I've been working. But you know, at least today. It started off looking kind of pretty outside today, and I was like, ooh, it is gonna be hotter than hot, and then it clouded over and it looked like it was starting to rain. And I said, Well, it might be more humid than hot, but we'll see. I'm not planning on going outside to find out for myself, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

The group, the group chat with my parents says it is so hot. They just say, It's so hot. That's all they've been saying. So, and I was like, I ain't been outside today. So there's that.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

I haven't either. And my family in California is complaining about how hot it is there. Um, my friends up in New York, my friends in England talked about it, like, because they don't have any air conditioning, so they are dying with 100 degree temperatures. Just dying. No, I was like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I would legitimately cry because I've done it before. I've been somewhere with no central AC and it was that hot, and I did cry. So I'm saying I know for a fact I would cry. I have done it.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

My body cried. That's how much sweat I have. My body was crying. I was like, no. And I got up out of there as quickly as I could. Ooh, is Retha's Franklin saying, Ain't no way. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Anyway so, we hope that you all uh by the time you listen to this, things have cooled down some, or the humidity has gone by the wayside, but we're glad you're here with us today. So, Lex, what are we getting into today? What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Okay, so the last episode that we did with just the two of us, I was asking you about your career. We the world finally knows what you do for work. We finally have an answer.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Now, and I wanted to find out faster than they did on Martin about what Tommy did because I think his didn't happen until season three.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

We don't, and that's not real. We don't know. But Tommy didn't have no job. We do not know what Tommy did.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Tommy did have a job.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

No, I don't care about that text message you sent. I don't care, this go on the internet a lot. Tommy don't he ain't have no job. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

You didn't want me to ruin the Martin magic, huh? Okay. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

He doesn't have a job. I don't care nothing about that boy's girl club. He don't have no job. On the other hand, you do have a job. You do have a job. Yes, ma'am. You created yourself. You your own boss. You hired yourself and you didn't fire yourself. So you must like not yet I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Sometimes the tendency is there, trust me. Like, look girl.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yes. So you do have a job, and we discussed what that was in the last episode that we recorded together. Um, but what I wanted to do today was kind of talk about what does that actually look like. Okay. And what sort of value it actually brings to an organization and and what actually will be a real life impact of it. Because the last episode we talked about what are your own personal challenges, opportunities for growth, whatever you want to call it, that you found through running a business as an entrepreneur, but now we want to get into like what exactly it is that's being done. What does that look like? Alrighty then. Bring it on. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

By the way, your nails are absolutely cute. Thank you. They um are very grown out. I need to get them. We're not going to even talk about that. I lost this one trying to do my wrap. Literally found it in my wrap as I was tying my hair. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

No, not in your okay. All right. We've gotten attracted already by nails of all.

unknown 5:11

Oops.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Dropping stuff on my desk. Yep, here it is right there.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Oh, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. I hate that. I can't even really look at it. Look at my notes here. You know I'm grossed out by most things. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

Oh, I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

My bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

See, something else new I learned. Yeah, I don't really like people's bodies. Ew.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

So oh, that is totally an episode for another time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So, okay. So you do leadership training, focus on communication. And as of late, you've been wanting to focus on communication with neurodiversity in mind. Yes. So what is like a misconception about neurodivergent communication that you have found people have and that needs to be addressed in the workplace?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Uh to kind of simply put it, people think of neurodiversity as just another another DEI word. Um they look at it as a way of just another way of someone um trying to other themselves or single themselves out or trying to stand out as different, or you know, a lot of the um rhetoric that we hear in our media and other places. And so the misconception has to be changed because the reality is, you know, and I've stated this before, and there was I can't think of her name in order to give her credit. There's a excuse me, a psychologist on Instagram that I follow, and she was the first person that I ever heard say we're all neurodivergent because brains are like fingerprints. You know, um, 99% of the time, unless you're a twin or something like that, you're different. Your fingerprints are different, your footprint is different. So our brains are different, but it's how we process the information that defines the medical terms of neurotypical and neurodivergent. So people do not tend to understand that neurodivergent does not mean you're incapable of thinking or communicating or having a complete thought or articulating that thought. Excuse me, they don't understand that it doesn't mean that because you take a moment to process information, that you have the inability to process information. So those are some of the things that um are often misunderstood. I'll give you an example. I don't know if I shared this already, so forgive me if I have, but I have a colleague of mine who was um, and if I did tell you the story, please stop me. Um, but I have a colleague of mine who was at a meeting with the CEO, and uh she was going in for our RFP, talked to the CEO, then she was moved on to talk to the board. She's in the meeting, she's talking to the board, and she asked, um, she's a HR specialist. Um, so she asked them, you know, what do you, what is coming up in the workplace that's new that you haven't really heard about before, or that you're finding is becoming more and more commonplace. And so someone spoke up and said, you know, neurodiversity. And he said, and I appreciate it because I'm neurodivergent and I've always had a hard time with people understanding me, you know, and how he thinks and how he communicates, so on and so forth. The CEO jumped up, and I will not repeat what he says because we don't use that language on the show, but he used some rather inappropriate language and was just basically, I don't care about neurodiversity and what you guys call yourselves and blah, blah, blah. I just want you to get to the bottom line and make some money. And being the ally that she is, she immediately knew she was not gonna work with this company. Yeah, and second of all, she spoke up and she said, you know, this is why your company's having the problems that it's having right now, and why it probably will not be around in about 15 years because of your attitude, the way that you're thinking, and how you're using your privilege right now. And then she sat down and ended her presentation. So that's that's an extreme, but that's also the reality of what we're dealing with when people are talking about being neurodivergent and whether or not to even come forward in the workplace, because they do need an accommodation because that fluorescent light overhead, that humming sound is irritating them. The light is too bright some days, you know, and they need someplace else to be. Um, yeah, that's some of the mindset we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

That's so interesting, too, because even from the most cynical uh point of view, by caring about what your employees are contending with or what sort of challenges they're telling you they have, and then doing something to accommodate it, you're more likely to make the money because then they can show up at work and work for you, right? Exactly. So he said that's just stupid because even the most cynical point of view, you do something about it, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Um, to an extent for some people, and I because I don't want to generalize all companies, all employers, and everything like that, some of it has to do with um willful ignorance they're choosing not to learn anything, they're choosing not to see, they're choosing not to accommodate, they're choosing to say, Well, if I do this for you, because if I hear this one more time, if I do this for you, I have to do it for everybody else. No, you don't. You don't. You really don't. That's not what um equity and all of that is all about, equality and everything. That's not what it's all about. Um, so you you have people that have that mindset. You have others that say they don't have the time because they're super busy, they're trying to just keep things afloat, and then you have others where things are so large, um, they're not necessarily in touch, so information doesn't get filtered up. That's one of the problems with large corporations. As much as we can love them or loathe them, um filtering up to the person that makes all of the key decisions for the direction of the company can be a challenge. You know, so think about trying to come in on the level I'm coming in at saying, here's something that can truly benefit your your your um organization, no matter how big or small. And it's not even getting to the right ears because there are people that are going, yeah, we get it, we understand it, we like it, but can we afford to take our people out of the field or do this or do that just for a training with you all day? When they could be out there making money. You could make more money if you worked with me, but that that's a whole nother story.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yep. So then I'm wondering then how communication differences show up in the workplace, and if you maybe have an example of a challenge that's coming up at work that maybe leaders are having, that's not really a performance issue, it's just a communication issue.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

There are a couple of different um ones. Um I'll give so if you don't mind, I'll use you as an example because we've talked about how you'll ask questions in meetings because you're like, I want to understand and I want to know exactly what I'm supposed to do. So when I walk out of here, I can go do my job. Um, that is one of the benefits of how your brain processes information. And also to how you um, you know, figuratively speaking, don't see shades of gray. It's black or white. So you're a rule follower. We talked about your role and what you do in your job, and you said, look, I'm I'm at do this to make sure that all of this gets safe and protected in the company. So I have to follow certain rules and certain safeguards, right? So then you have, um, which is fine, but there are going to be people in that meeting that might go, oh my goodness, why is she asking another question? Now, oftentimes, because we've all done it, you know, we've all othered other people. And so there are times when we just sit there and we just like, girl, I just want to look. The meme was on it was supposed to be an email and they turn it into an hour meeting. Can we get out of here, please? Because I got one on my desk. And you're just trying to understand, and other people don't take that into consideration. That's a communication issue. That's not a personality issue, right? Then you have other people like me, which has happened to me in the workplace, where we're sitting around in a meeting and we're talking and they're asking for ideas, and I'm the only one spewing ideas. Now it looks like I'm trying to, you know, show off or be whatever. Or if we're all talking and throwing out ideas and somebody sparks an idea, and I go, Oh, that's good, because then we could do, because now I'm seeing a much bigger picture. I have literally been told I was being rude, I was being inconsiderate, um, and that sort of thing. And I get that in some cultures, culturally, that is that way. Um, but the way my brain processes information and how quickly it moves and then it comes out and how quickly I can put pieces of puzzles together, that does not sit well with some people. So they feel like I'm being aggressive. I'm trying to take over a meeting, I'm trying to take control and all that kind of stuff. And I had to tell them, no, baby, when I take control, you will know I'm taking control. I'm not taking control, I'm contributing. But they don't like how I'm contributing. That's a communication issue. Um, you know, and we we face it another way. So let's just get real about it. As women of color, we also face it when we're walking down a hallway, we might be in thought. We might be worrying about thinking about, you know, if you got OCD and stuff, did I turn off the stove? Knowing you went and checked it 20 times already before you left, right? And somebody comes up to you and you're not smiling, and now all of a sudden you're sitting in an HR meeting or in a management 101 meeting, and they're telling you that they're getting ready to write you up because you are not coming across as a team player. That's not a personality issue, that's a processing and communication issue. That's how it shows up in the workplace for us. And that's how it shows up when you have leaders that do not under when I say leaders, I'm talking, you know, managers. We used to call them stupidvisors, you know, so supervisors, you know, stupid supervisors. Um, I'm talking team leads. I'm talking about anybody that at some point in time has to work with you or with us, and they have a measure of leadership over you, even if it's just a project lead. That's how it shows up in the workplace for us.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

So, what are some simple changes you feel like those leaders could make to create a more inclusive environment?

SPEAKER_03 17:46

One thing is when you go into a meeting, and this is used to be standard practice, and it's not so much anymore, but when you go into a meeting, have an agenda. And now, mind you, I'm not one that's big on sitting down and always writing agendas, but I do do it when I'm having like different client meetings because I want to make sure that there's nothing that I'm forgetting that we need to talk about. It also helps you stay on time as well, right? Um, so that works for someone like me that has ADHD to manage my time effectively. So I'm not sitting around lollygagging and just shooting a breeze with people. No, there's a purpose to why we came here to meet. But um, leaders can have um an agenda and then work to stick to the agenda. You don't have to say we're gonna spend five minutes talking about X, Y, and Z, but just knowing what you're going to talk about. Um, so that helps those who process information in a step-by-step way. Whether that is somebody that is processing information through the mind of being um, you know, ASD, or if that's through the mind of being someone who's AUDHD, that's got the system side and the creative side. Um, the other things they can do is to really take the effort to kind of get to know your employees and the people you're working with. And that means looking around, observing them. How are they contributing when they're contributing to a conversation? Are they talking really, really fast, which generally means that someone's mind is operating pretty quickly. They're not trying to rush you, it's just, I gotta get this out. Or are they talking a little bit more slowly, maybe in a monotone? They are being more strategic in what in in how they're talking or what they're saying. They're choosing their words more carefully. That's somebody that is processing everything, and that's somebody that by the time you come to the end of the meeting, they've already thought through the very first thing that you talked about. And now at the end of the meeting is when they're gonna ask their questions because they have time to really think it through, put the pieces together. So when when when leaders also take the time to say, I'm going to, for lack of a better term, I'm gonna come down to your level meaning. I'm or let me put it like this: I'm gonna meet you where you are. So if you, if they're coming and talking to somebody like me, a lot of my leaders will let me talk. They would be like, go ahead and share your ideas. And they would just let me talk until there was something that struck their fancy.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

And at other times, sometimes they'd be like, Hey, I just need you to get to the, I need you to just tell me X, Y, and Z. Okay. Well, here's what you need to know. Okay, now you can elaborate because maybe they have they're having a time constraint and they don't have a time to indulge me in all of my minutia that I might want to spew out because I be got a PhD in you know, click funnels overnight, and now I want to tell you everything about it. Um, so though I'm laughing, she's laughing because I'm actually learning click funnels right now, and and I'm no, I'm not doing a PhD at this point.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

That was a little peer into some before recording conversation, so I got a good little giggle out of that one.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

But you know, it's just a it's it's it's learning how to adjust and and uh and learning that we can't impose our way of thinking and communication and interaction on everybody. It does not work that way. It just doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, that's true. I'm thinking about too how helpful it is when the leaders you're working with are able to recognize that everyone in the room doesn't have the same communication style and is able to have their backs in it. Um, I can't tell you how many times I've been in sort of interdepartment meetings, especially where I work now, it's a lot more meetings than any place I've ever been at um but i would like ask something or explain something and i would either either get cut off or like dismiss and sometimes it might have been from feeling challenged just because i had the nerve to ask a question and then sometimes i could tell it's a it's like one of the isms happening in the room um i find a lot more often i run into sexism that's that's a whole thing um because i'll i'll see who they'll over talk and who they won't and I can't tell you how many times that my manager has then had to come back and say well that's what Alexis was saying like they'll ask questions like what well that's what Alexis was trying to tell you she said this and it so yeah um having my back in that sort of scenario makes you feel more confident being in those rooms and yes it also helps so that if your manager is saying I don't really want to approach this in this way you're more likely to respect it because you know it's not a personal slight against you it's just in making a management a leadership decision you say okay well that's what you want to do for this and I'm fine with that just I'll do what I can to support this particular decision.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

And another thing too that often works is you know when I would go into some of these meetings, especially when I was meeting with you know senior level let's say VPs and above um all the way up to C-suites, whoever my leader was at the time would call me in and say, okay, let's go over the game plan. One so that I wouldn't get nervous because that happens to all of us at some point right even if you know your stuff and you got it down pat it can still be intimidating and overwhelming to walk into those spaces especially if you're not technically on their level as far as titles and so forth, right? They may not even speak to you and know who you are. Let's just be real. So when you have a leader that works with you and says let's come up with a game plan let's prepare on what to say so I'm gonna mention this and this is where I want you to pipe in because this is where your knowledge and expertise is that's also setting you up for success that is allowing you a moment to shine and to share your knowledge and expertise and also like you said when they have your back even if you don't have that if they have your back in other meetings that's a form of allyship and a lot of times just to be honest we as women of color we as women we as um um neurodivergents we don't always want to rely on other people to be allies for us many of us are quite comfortable in our skin speaking up for ourselves and that sort of a thing many of us are quite adept at code switching or if we don't code switch we know how to use the words that they want to hear and put it in such a way that we can convey what they want to hear in the way that they want to hear it. But the reality is you do walk into those situations where you're in a room where people don't want to hear what you have to say for whatever reasons isms or not you're walking into a room where people feel like you're not talking fast enough when you're trying to explain something and you are purposefully trying to explain something point by point either to lead them logically to a logical conclusion to get them to reason on something or for them to go wait a minute there was a step missed right there and that's my point. So you know so you there's a lot of reasons why and and you know when we're talking as women and women of color we know we know that it happens to us more often than not so having an ally is extremely beneficial even when you're not in that room I guarantee you your manager is probably still going and telling people well you know when we had that meeting last week Alexis brought out X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

We need that. And that stuff is helpful because it offers credibility to you as a colleague which is a whole thing in itself. So yes um it might feel like sometimes why do we have to do this at all but it is what it is we do. And you need the credibility and you need the support of the people who are in leadership because they get seen there's a hierarchy and everything especially when you're in a corporate in a corporate environment so you have to kind of just be aware that this is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

And credibility builds to your reputation right so unfortunately we don't get anywhere in our industries in our organizations and corporations without having a credible reputation and sometimes we can't build that on our own because we just don't have um and I don't mean we as neurodivergents I just mean we as employees may not have the clout so to speak that those higher up than us will have so they help to lay those foundations for our credibilities and reputations. So if you're a leader in an organization you already know what it feels like to be othered the one thing that I encourage is to stop being a gatekeeper with information stop being um you know one of those that feels like well you I pulled myself up by my bootstrap somebody else can too yeah but somebody helped attach your bootstrap somebody else put your put it all together for you so you can go in there and pull it up we all need an ally we all need allies so be an ally and then I'm thinking what you said about some of us are reluctant to even let anybody be our ally even let anybody be helpful to us at all in the workplace that requires a vulnerability and sometimes the word vulnerable doesn't seem to come up when you're speaking about a professional environment but it it is a level vulnerability to allow people to assist you in that way.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

So there's also a kind of a two-sided nature in that sense of like recognizing if that's what's happening and like accepting it.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

It it requires some humility right so if we if you're not comfortable with the word vulnerable fine it it requires some humility that is a a quality that a lot of people have not fully learned because honestly in the workplace especially when you're talking in a corporate environment um many people you know you have to learn to toot your own horn you have to learn how to stand up and stand out they deliberately make us compete they make us compete against each other anyway in or outside the worked environment we're competing with each other on Instagram who's got the best so-called soft life who's got the best what you know stuff like that. So that's how it's that subtle uh indoctrination leading up to the corporate but in the corporate environment one the best leaders are those that also know how to be humble and to say I they know how to ask for help and they're the ones that know how to go to find the people within their circle that they can go to and say hey this is what I'm trying to do help me to get there or if somebody comes to them and says and they're genuine because we also can we we get real good intuition right so use your fimtuition use your use your neural intuition and be like mm-hmm but we we use it to determine if somebody is genuine when they come to us and say you know here's a something that I'm seeing in you that is great however it could be hindering you from moving further or hindering you from being able to communicate effectively let's talk about it and accept that feedback and run with it yeah that's true so then how can managers better support their neurodivergent employees without making assumptions well first and foremost um you may not feel comfortable and it's and and I and I don't really know if it's even legal in some areas to ask somebody if they are neurodivergent um because that's in going into ADA and all that kind of stuff. I haven't worked in that area of HR in a long time um so if you haven't asked for accommodations that can be a little bit of a challenge. However if a manager or if you if or a leader suspects that someone might be neurodivergent then the best way to support them is to ask them like if you see that there's an area they're struggling in for me um I use I've used this example and I shared it on my other podcast when I was became a manager of a department I had a $3.15 million dollar budget. I had never done forecasting before um I've done journal entries I'd done AP AR all that kind of stuff believe it or not even with my dyscalculia but um managing a budget that big for a department and it it didn't compare to other people's monies that was small but it was big for me and I was not doing my accruals properly I wasn't you know there was a lot of things that were going wrong and part of that was because the person before me I don't feel set me up for success as well as he thought he did. So I ended up having to take a class to learn about beginning finances for managers. Great class first of all I was determined and see this is the this this the stubborn side that comes out that's this is when PDA is such a beautiful thing I said you will never come to me and talk to me about my books again ever I took the class and for the next two years my books were solid when I left my books were solid there was nothing that they didn't know about because we had a lot of different moving pieces and parts so as a manager or as a leader if you're finding that somebody on your team might be neurodivergent and they're struggling in an area find ways to help them without necessarily being overt be like you know what there's this course I would really like for you to take because I can see where this is going to benefit you now and in the long run. So I'm gonna sign you up for this Finance for Managers course. I know you're not a manager yet but one day you will be so I want to lay the groundwork and make sure you fully understand the process from top to bottom and then I'm gonna give you some responsibilities and helping me you know learn a little bit more about managing the the the departmental budget. Subtle but you're helping them to learn a skill that will will benefit them but also is probably benefiting the team because they might be the ones screwing up some of the dollars a cents and don't know it. Like for real.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

What I appreciate about that approach as well um the assumption in that case could have been uh Shy just doesn't know what she's doing. Shy maybe actually maybe she wasn't right for this position. Shy's not trying Shy doesn't care about this so she's just we'll just get somebody else to it because clearly she doesn't care enough to do this well. Whereas in this approach it could just be oh I wonder if Chai might find this helpful so in that case instead of making an assumption ask a question. Yes offer some assistance in something because even if you are not neurodivergent if you're just bad at math you might need this assistance. If you just if you are not even the person who handles the money in your house you might not have ever been the person to handle any money of any kind at all. So you have to learn how to do this. Yep so give you an opportunity to learn and then display why you were a good choice for the role because you're willing to learn more to do your best and to put as much as much as you can into the role that you have.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Yep I'm pretty sure that's not how my particular finance manager and and AVP thought at the time but you're absolutely right so and and the other thing too is um as a leader part of our job our role and function is to see the best in other people so prepare them for what you see they can do or where they can go. If you know what their goals are and you see what they're struggling with or where they could use some more you know sometimes it's a matter of just getting a little bit more education around something but you can find ways to work with them without making them feel on the spot. And if you do know they're neurodivergent then talk to them and ask them well what are the things that are interesting to you how is your workday set up is there somewhere where I might be able to help you maybe you know you can't always co-work with your your employee or anything like that but what can I do to help? If I'm scheduling 50-11 meetings all day maybe we need to condense some of these maybe they don't need to be meetings so I mean that's what my boss did at one point especially because she was dealing with chronic illness I had chronic illness plus I think she recognized that I had neurodivergence because she's worked in the DEI field a number of times and she was like you know we're gonna consolidate some of these meetings now it might mean that we might have one two-hour meeting versus multiple meetings but I'd rather go into that one two hour meeting have the rest of my week free so I can sit there and create and do the things that I want to do than constantly having my time broken up and now my concentration is broken and I can't function. I can't complete my assignments the way I would like or give you the level of creativity that I would like because every time I get into it you break it up which is like your worst enemy that's worse sabotage for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah okay it is okay so we've done some speaking to the managers yeah let's kind of look at it from an employee perspective. Okay so for a neurodivergent listener who might feel misunderstood at work what is a practical step they can take to advocate for themselves and their communication needs so I have to take off my my shy hat because me personally as shy I always advocated well I shouldn't say always but I as I got older I definitely advocated for myself but one of the ways that you can do that and again this is going to require some humility on our part is when you're having a one-on-one with your manager be honest with them about something you're struggling with.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Pick something that's relatively small if you don't want to pick the big thing like like you feel like they because there's this assumption in the work environment which I explained to you um when we talked off camera a while back there's this assumption that you're supposed to know what you're supposed to know. And the reality is you may not always know what you're supposed to know because nobody ever told you. So pick something kind of small and just be like you know what I'm working on X, Y, and Z. And I know that it's you know probably not going to be that big of a deal um to you but I just want to make sure that um I'm handling some things right. Whether it's uh email that you're trying to send to a customer or somebody else um maybe there's a you're working interdepartmentally and and their your lingo is different. You guys use one terminology and everybody is so go to them and say you know I don't lead this particular interdepartmental team but I feel like we need to address the fact that there's you know different ways of saying the same thing. May I ask some suggestions on how I can handle that. So now you're opening the door and letting them know if you straight up want to tell them um you know which is what I do now when people I was like look I have ADHD and I want you to understand this is how I tend to communicate and I'm not trying to be rude and if it's too much for you let me know because you can easily tell me okay hold on a second and I'll be like okay and in a professional meeting I will stop and I will wait until you say okay so shy what were you gonna say so don't say anything I'm sitting there writing a bunch of stuff down I'm still listening but I've got to get this thought out before I forget because if it comes any other way I'm going to shut down and now I'm not contributing and that will be a big notice. So maybe just helping them understand how you communicate um helping them how you're understanding things um I would go in sometimes too to my boss because of the kind of relationships I have with them and I'll be like okay let me make sure I had it straight we're gonna add up X plus Y to get to Z to solve A plus B squared Okay and then she'd be like no no no girl we're starting over here and this is how it works okay so this is where I got lost and then tell them maybe it wasn't a way that maybe they didn't communicate that maybe they missed a step and sometimes you might have to ask okay I need to walk through this can you walk me through it step by step especially if it's a process you're trying to learn and you're not process oriented or detail oriented you need a moment like literally to be like I need a walk through step by step okay yeah so recognize that about yourself and then ask for it when you need it.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yeah. Yes yeah so I kind of heard you saying that you've pretty much always advocated for yourself. I wouldn't say always I was like no one always is done everyone had to learn a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Some people are better at it than others but there's times that I didn't there's times that so this is one thing I do want to point out and I think I mentioned this before but I think it's important to mention it here because sometimes we don't advocate for ourselves especially as women of color because we're not sure what aspect of us we have to advocate for we don't know if we're advocating for ourselves because we're women because we're people of color because we're a woman of color because we're neurodivergent because we're a neurodivergent woman or a neurodivergent woman of color you know we've got these complex layers right so maybe you don't have the same level of education as some of the people that you're working with. That comes up sometimes and then you have to flex your muscle about this is what I do know. And you know like they said in Goodwill hunting I learned all that for a buck fifty at the library and you spent $150,000 at Harvard. Like you know you don't have to say like that but that's that's what it comes down to. So we we sometimes struggle to advocate because we don't know what we're advocating what aspect of ourselves we're advocating for there's a term and I think I mentioned this too on on other episodes by Dr. Jade Singleton. I'll see if I can get her on the show she talks about um attributional ambiguity and that's what this is and what that means is you know sometimes you don't get that promotion and you're like did I not get that promotion because I wasn't qualified and then you look and you see everything stacks up. No I was qualified okay so I wasn't under and I wasn't over all right well maybe I didn't get it because I took maternity leave last year. Well maybe the other person took maternity leave. You know you're so you're stacking and you're trying to compare apples to apples and you don't know what it is. You don't know if it's an ism you don't know if it's something else. So that attributional ambiguity affects us as well. So we don't know what we're advocating for. Is it our neurodivergence? Is it whatever so when you're looking to advocate for yourself make sure that you are pinpointing something very specific try to and what I mean by that is okay I sent the email I said it in a meeting and I said it in a phone call and this person still doesn't listen to me or this person still has not responded or whatever the case may be that's when you take that to your manager and say okay I just want to understand what could possibly be going on between me and this other person on the team the department or whatever because I did this this and this what else do you suggest I do and then when you've done all of that you go back and you tell them I've done X, Y, and Z. And if they come and say well you haven't done da da da da what more can I do? Because I've done da da da da da da or I said this is this and that or I invited them to this meeting that meeting whatever or I've tried to engage with them whatever it is have something specific because then that's something to work with and if it's your manager and they're coming at you with something have something specific like I had a manager one time I had just come back from a business trip um at that time I was um uh inside sales manager for seven states so I went and visited uh Alabama I had to go to Birmingham and Montgomery had never been before so I'm down there with my counterpart who's the the uh regional sales manager so some of these accounts used to be her accounts so we're down there I go I meet some of these accounts that she set up that sort of a thing so when I get back my manager's like um we've gotten a call from such and such travel agency and I was like okay I was like what's going on she said well um they knew you were coming but they wondered why they had never heard from you before I said really and she's like you know it's your job I realize you have over 250 travel agencies in your database but your job to make sure that you reach out to each and every one of them at least once a quarter you're supposed to reach out to them multiple I said hold on one second went to my desk and I came back and I said not only have I reached out to them have you looked in the record to see where I have called them I have emailed them I've done this and done that because we have to log all that stuff and I was good about that logged all my stuff she was like yes I do see that and I said and by the way here's everybody's cards in the travel agency I literally went in and met and shook hands with every single person in that travel agency and they called to tell you that I did not show up or that I they never met me and then and it was silence just like that and then she was like I'm sorry I was mistaken and this is that so sometimes you know when it's your manager you you do have to come with something you don't have to do it in the way that I did it don't get me wrong but you do have to come with something to kind of go no this shows that I did everything I was supposed to do in the way I was supposed to do it this shows that I did it the way that you asked me to do it. How else would you have preferred that I do it that's why I tell everybody I have always always always always covered myself in every way I possibly could documentation up the wazoo okay so did I answer your question I'm sorry was I was saying do do me a favor connect that story to about advocating for your communication needs what is that connection okay so you are advocating for the fact that there are different ways of communicating so you want to ask them what other way could I have said something what other way could I have um communicated with that person I've sent them emails I've done this and I've done that what other way could I have reached out to them then when it comes to your needs okay um it's better for me if you can send that to me in an email and bullet point it for me some bosses may not want to do that. They might want to spew it out to you I get it that you want to talk to me and I'm gonna write it down. So if they're not willing to sync up to you the way you advocate for yourself if you need an email and it has to be bullet pointed then after your meeting you go back and send them an email with the bullet points and say I just want to make sure I captured everything that you said. Now if you want to be petty you leave off something on there that was not too important but you know that would have was something that they wanted to know you know you should say if you want to be petty I said if you want to be petty but no that is petty that did not endorse that option that that would annoy the mess out of me but in all I got to add some levity to the situation. But in all seriousness when you're advocating for yourself if you're not a person that can take things in let's say you're sitting in a meeting and you got all these people talking over like I know some people that cannot handle a lot of people talking at the same time that's when you um say can we have somebody that can capture all the information and then you know send it to us via email or can we record the meeting and then that way you can go back because now there's all these different note takers that can happen you know that can help you know so what you're doing is you're letting them know I'm not only processing information differently I have to take it in differently or the way that I'm communicating is going to be different. That's how you can start advocating for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

So that's how those stories tie back into that cool thank you thank you for making that connection because I say I got to advocate for myself and say I don't understand this story. So let me find out what's going on so I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

I was just using a general advocacy story to but I appreciate you coming back and saying that because that makes sense but see that's the other thing you you're a perfect example what you did right there. A lot of people will not do that in a meeting I would you know and and they because there's this connotation in the neurotypical world of you should you should be able to follow and understand everything in a meeting sometimes I'll be like I'm sorry can we back up for just a moment because I'm trying to understand the connection to this this and this oh oh oh those are two different things okay so I misunderstood because when this was said it was said during this and this so what I understood was this and this because people don't often understand like you do with me sometimes you're like okay you went here here and here and I'm trying to connect all these dots in my head they connected or in my head I was going with one place with that story but went off someplace else and I was like nope that didn't connect back to the original point because the original point was over here and I was supposed to go down this road. I was supposed to turn left and not right you know it happened or you don't complete a full sentence because you finish the sentence in your head and you think the person's with you because they're sitting there nodding and going along and you like great they got it and you keep going and that person sitting there like I and then you have those people where your mind is racing so you already know what they're about to say and you're just sitting there like oh man just hurry up.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

I get it I get it I get I okay that I I get it and that's probably you listening to me but you know listen you I'll be like I don't know where we're going and that's the most exhausting part being in a New York taxi man like just hang on for the ride.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

You're gonna get off I want to get off you may not know how you got there but you got there but that's why it's important to to honestly it really is important to speak up and let people know how you best receive information and how you can communicate it and also understand how other people best receive information because it might be a stretch for you might and so you that's like ooh I'm gonna have to work on that but that's not going to do anything but build your skills your interpersonal communication skills build your emotional intelligence and make people more drawn to you than repelled by you because you're putting forth that effort that a lot of people don't do whether they're leading or not yeah and I'm sure that will mean a lot to the people that you're working with to be willing to stretch yourself in that way. So um last question after you what um trends or changes are you seeing happen in the workplace or are you hopeful to see happen in the workplace good positive changes I am seeing more people talking about neurodivergence but sadly it is only in reference to ADHD okay and that's so that's not something I'm proud about but we're making progress so these people are talking about neurodivergence people are also starting to admit that they are neurodivergent I probably shouldn't say admit people are finally unmasking and standing in their truth of being neurodivergent um and when we do that nine times out of 10 we're finding out other people are or that they know somebody else that is and that just changes things in the work environment. So things are changing um being able to now that more companies have kind of settled in on whether they're in person or hybrid or whatever the case may be there tends to be a little bit more of a balance now of how things are being done to accommodate those who are neurodivergent whether they realize that they're accommodating them or not so not always requiring everybody to be in the office during the week they think that's only benefiting those that want remote work when in reality for most that are neurodivergent we're like yes they're also more of a trend towards um mindfulness and doing health and wellness at work because people are stressed out because um there's a lot of pressures on minds and things like there's a lot of people that do workplace health and wellness um programs so that employees are able to get their mental health um assisted with which those of us that are constantly dealing with all these things um as neurodivergence we need assistance with that and that in turn also is creating environments where you can go into a quiet meditation room you can go and do all these other things or if you say hey I need my headphones on just to kind of whatever and then people don't question it as much. See back in my day that I would have been looking like oh you crazy why are you sitting here with headphones on why do you need your radio on why do you need because I'm trying to drown y'all out so I can focus or that fluorescent like I would work and turn the lights off in my cube because the fluorescent lights are humming and I can't stand the hum any longer it's not white noise it's loud you know so different things like that. So we're starting to see more and more trends towards that and the fact that we technically fall under ADA you're starting to see um that companies are willing to accommodate us because our accommodations aren't extremely costly yeah they're very simple you know and that's not to to put down anybody else with any other type of a disability or anything but some some changes are very expensive. To build a ramp to do different things like that can be costly to make sure there's lights that are going to work for those who are deaf you know things like that can be costly as they should be to an extent because those are needed those are specialty type of items that are needed um I don't think they necessarily have to be that costly but you can understand why it might take you know installations and things like that. Some of the accommodations we're asking for man can I just put my headphones on during a day that costs them no money. I'll bring my own I'll be at every meeting I just yeah you know so we're starting to see trends towards that and I'm hoping that will continue and as you know we get to know more about AI and we're working with AI and things like that and I know we talked about that and whether or not people feel one way or the other but the reality is is um that is also benefiting those who may not be able to um learn things as quickly. AI can help you to learn some things right so like I told you I was working on learning click funnels and I said okay I'm gonna use AI to teach me step by step how to build this funnel for my upcoming webinar and then I'm gonna tell it now make a SOP out of what you just taught me. So I didn't have to go create my own it's gonna create it for me and I learned how to use a new program which takes some time it's taken me a few days and I have stayed up pretty long nights to try to pull this together and do certain things but I learned it and now I have a manual that will be able to teach me how to use it afterwards. So it's learn those types of things are going to work towards our benefit yeah yeah so you got any last thoughts you want the people to know anything else um not really I I would just say keep your head up you know don't don't get down when when there are challenges that you're going to face because we're going to keep facing challenges but eventually things get a little bit easier um keep looking for your allies keep being an ally and keep talking about your neurodivergence because yes we as people of color get tired of educating people all the time about who we are and that we're not the Rosetta Stone for our entire race or ethnicity or whatever. But it's also in and to an extent it's the same thing with our neurodiverseness. However people are not going to understand and learn the sheer numbers of us that are out there and how we can benefit their organizations if we're not talking about it if we don't say this is my superpower for you. My ability to super focus on how to do numbers and pay attention to detail that's a benefit for you because that means I'm I'm more than likely not going to miss something that somebody else is going to miss. You know so then you advocate for yourself in that way. You advocate for yourself in the roles that you want to to have so keep standing in your truth keep standing in your truth in who you are I agree I got nothing to add to that so where can listeners find out more about your work where can they find you friendless plug yourself ma'am do it they can find me my my website is shyboston.com that's s-a i boston like the city dot com you can find me on LinkedIn I'm on Instagram threads uh and Facebook at shy boston I'm not on TikTok yet but I'm probably gonna have to get on there so y'all gonna have to teach me some things. But yeah that's where I am and I would love to hear from you guys we would love to hear for you for the show um I have come across so many neurodivergent women of color in some of the most amazing jobs that some I've never even heard of before. So I am trying to entice them to come on our show and just talk about their lives and their experiences um from that perspective. So but we would love to hear from you too and please don't hesitate to reach out to me um especially if you feel like there's something I might be able to bring to your workplace or if you need some advice on how to handle some things in your workplace in that regard I'd be more than happy to talk to you and assist you with that. Yeah and I won't charge you a fee just for the initial talk as everybody be like bruh what's that gonna cost me we're not trying to get you a do okie dough we really do we really do want to I'm not trying to do that I'm not trying to do that but you know but we we all need some if I didn't have people that I could have gone to and talked to about different things for free I wouldn't have made it to where I was in all honesty.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

People that were willing to pour into me so um yeah let me pour into you heard her y'all let her pour let her pour um as usual we have our email address and everything in the show notes that is bgbgsquirel at gmail.com you can hit us up on Instagram DMs anywhere you want to reach out to us you can remain anonymous if you want to if you like please don't read this out on the show and have my name out there we won't do that to you send it to us we want to hear from you please please please talk to us yeah and if I do accidentally say your name we always edit it out anyway so yeah and I'll probably give her a face like we you have one job you have one job that was not to say that later name she'd be like friendly what if she does it I'll just say her full gummit name on here you know what then she'll definitely have to edit it out right so I have done it accidentally before I don't call her shy I call her by her full day because that's how I met her so it's all good it's all good.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Well we appreciate you being here stay cool stay hydrated and we'll score with you another time bye bye thanks for hanging out with us today we'd love to hear from you if you have any questions or topics you'd like for us to cover in our podcast please don't hesitate to let us know. You can send us a message on our fan page at Famlist.com forward slash BGBG Squirrel. That's Famlist.com forward slash BGBG Squirrel