Episode 5: How To Build a Championship Program

In this Locked IN Basketball episode, hosts Nick DeFeo and Jason Shea tackle the art of building a successful high school basketball program. From establishing core values to preparing for postseason competition, we share everything you need to know about coaching at the high school level.

Topics covered include:

• How to define and maintain team culture 🏀
• Balancing public vs. private high school basketball challenges
• Best practices for recruiting and development 🏅
• Handling postseason pressure and keeping a program thriving year after year 💪

Whether you're a high school coach, aspiring player, or basketball fan, this episode offers key insights into the strategies behind running a competitive high school basketball program.

Don't miss it – get Locked IN now! 

Transcript

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welcome to locked in podcast, your source for everything basketball. My name is Nick DeFeo alongside my cohost, Jason Shea. We dive into all things hoops from recruiting tips to training advice, hot takes in the latest news, whether you're a player, coach, parent, or fan, we've got you covered. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us for more great content every week. Let's get locked in coach. How you doing? I'm doing great, Nick. How you doing? I'm doing well. We're back at the home office here after spending the last weekend at, uh, at the Mohican sun tournament, which was a blast. Um, today we're talking about building a successful high school program. So it should be a good one. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is, uh, I think both in both of our wheelhouses, uh, both being coaches at the high school level, uh, it's, it's very interesting. I think our perspective will be a little bit different than what the majority of coaches, uh, need to focus on. But I think, you know, if you have a general plan, I think it applies to all schools. And we're going to talk about that, uh, specifically what school this coach might be coming from. We're going to talk public high school, uh, versus a private high school. So we cover, um, all the high schools, uh, across the country. So, uh, we're going to lay things out. We're going to start in the pre season. We'll work in season. Maybe a little postseason talk and then what, uh, how to build a successful program in the off season. So, um, my first question to you is you just took over a job, a new program, maybe, uh, back a few years ago when he took over the Notre Dame program. Um, first thing during the preseason, how did you go about your job and what did you want to establish? Yeah, I think going back to, it's 11 years now. When I took over as the head basketball coach at Notre Dame, the first thing that had to be established. And not that we had bad culture before that was the assistant coach at the school, but I had to establish what I wanted my culture to be in the program. And I think that's the most challenging thing because the first part of that is you have to understand what you actually want to have, what do you want it to look like? And, and then once you know what you want it to look like, how do you effectively get to that point? And I think that's, that's really the, the first thing is to establish what you want your team's identity to be, what you want your culture to be, and how are you going to go about establishing that culture? And one way to go about that is, is, you know, a preseason meeting or an initial meeting as the new head coach or operating head coach and ultimately learning your roster, finding out who you have, who's coming back, who did you graduate? What did the program do beforehand? Um, do you remember maybe some early meetings that you had with your teams when you took over? Yeah. And I think, so let's, let's even back up before that. I think it starts with staff. You start with your staff and you, you, you figure out who's going to coach with you, who's going to. Yeah. What are the values you need in your coaches, your assistant coaches? What are you looking for? You know, I think number one has to be loyalty. You've got to find someone who's loyal to you. You do, you know, someone who's hungry to be a head coach is great. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I think that's a positive. You want somebody who's, who's eager to learn, eager to advance, but at the same time you want someone who's backing up everything that you're saying. And so you have one unified voice as a coaching staff. That's probably the number one characteristic. Then it's what did, what else did they bring to the table? Do they bring the ability to give you a time commitment, able to run open gyms or be at the weight room? You know, are they available? I think at the high school level, that's a big one. What's a work schedule? Uh, and then probably the least most, the least important of all the attributes for assistant coaches, what they bring from an X and O standpoint. I think sometimes we overvalue it even as head coaches, X's and O's. It's really those other factors that come into place. And then are they likable? Can they build relationships? You know, you probably don't need your assistant for the most part being The hard ass in the in your practices you need them being the coach Picking guys up because as the head coach as you know, that's gonna be your role in in in most cases Yeah, absolutely and back a few years ago when we were help helping build the prep program at Notre Dame That's something I was looking for in an assistant coach right away was was who's available to me How often are they available? And what does their loyalty look like? Being in a new area, trying to recruit certain players, you need a guy who knows that area specifically. You need a guy who is available to get in the gym and maybe operate practice at some point or in some capacity. Lifting in some capacity. I was lucky enough to find that early on, um, and that actually helped out a ton. But, um, having a guy who's, who's loyal is no question part of the deal and it has to be a huge part of the deal. Um, and that obviously helps establish your culture as a, as a program. Absolutely right. And, and then I think the, the next part when you talk about culture, so you mentioned having a team meeting and we did do, we did do that and I think you have to go in that team meeting, not. With the intention of telling the kids what your system is going to be like, um, you know, what type of plays you're going to run or what type of defense you're going to play necessarily, that's going to come with time. They're going to figure that out. And, and those words to kids really don't mean as much as you might want them to mean to them, but you've got to come into that meeting with your core values established. What are you going to be your values in your program? And every coach has their own, the successful coaches all have their own and they all hold to those standards. So you come in with what are your core values? We have three core values in Notre Dame. You're going to be unselfish is one. We want unselfish players and that could happen and manifest itself in all types of ways. It's not just about passing the basketball. That's, it's almost probably the least important because if you get it right off the court, you're going to be unselfish in your social media game. You're going to be unselfish in open gym. When a college coach is there to see one of your teammates, you're going to help them out the best you can. You're going to be unselfish with your time. Notre Dame. with younger players. So unselfish is so much more than just passing the ball. So that was one for us. Two, you have to have a great attitude. We didn't want to come into this thing without that being a clear core value of our program. Because again, that's all encompassing. How you respond on the court. Do teammate makes a mistake? Are you consistently pouting at the officials? Are you dogging it after a bad play or a call that didn't get happened? Or when you get taken out of the game, how do you exit the court? We wanted to establish great attitude in the program on and off the court. What do you like in the classroom? What do you like at the Friday night football game? Are you a good person, number one. So attitude is a core value. And then the last one, and I think, sometimes we put this first, but I think it's really third. Uh, because if you have the first two, you're probably going to not have a problem number three and that's work ethic. We wanted our guys to be focused on working in the off season, of course, in our regular practices in the classroom, but we want to make sure that that's a standard. And those three core values or standards are non negotiable in the program. And I think, you know, but every coach can establish what's important to them. And you have to go into that meeting, that first meeting. With that in mind, what are your core values? Because it's going to take you time. I know for me, it did not happen overnight. It took years to get to a place where I feel that everybody understands those core values and lives them out on a daily basis. Yeah, those are, those are great points and great core values. Um, and like you said, every coach can have their own, own core values. And I remember early on with the prep team, we had those off season meetings, um, especially in that first year when I had that first team, uh, which ultimately became. Probably our best team in terms of attitude and work ethic. Um, we had a bunch of great kids and I'll never forget those first meetings that we had establishing what we're going to do, you know, and as a young coach, it's hard to set the standard and hold that standard, especially, you know, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties, setting that standard and holding kids who are maybe 10 to 15 years younger than you to that standard. Um, you know, and that's something that, that all coaches go through. And as. The years go by, you get better at it. Um, you know, but it's something that it's something that young coaches really need to help establish in their programs is, Hey, I'm going to set these standards, like you said, in that first meeting, but I'm going to hold you guys to the standard each and every day for as long as it takes, you know, in order for us to be a great basketball team and ultimately great program. And, and, you know, just some background, cause I think it's important to give some background on, on our experiences as coaches. Uh, Nick. started with Notre Dame prep, which was a brand new program. And you came into a very unique situation. So we're talking about building a successful program when you run a post grad program. And for us at Notre Dame, it was only post grad players for the most part program. It's even more challenging because what you had to do each individual year, and there's probably a lot of guys out there that experienced similar situations in AU. And then also that our spine will be coaches and the prep, uh, landscape is an attractive place to try your hand in it. I think because you're recruiting. So it feels a little bit more like college, but the challenge there is that first meeting is even more important and, and more difficult because you're establishing, trying to establish your culture year in and year out with a brand new group. So it is brand new for these guys each time. That's harder than a regular high school program. Talk about that. Absolutely. And, and again, we had these meetings that we're talking about, those preseason meetings, those culture establishing meetings every year, um, for us, because we had to re recruit a whole new team, uh, being a postgraduate program. So that first year we had 12 kids, um, come into that program in year one, we sent off, uh, 10 of the 12 to play college basketball. So year two comes in, which happened to be. Uh, the pandemic year, um, we had nine students come in that second year. Um, so we're mid 2020, uh, July, August of 2020, uh, right in the middle of the pandemic. And we held, uh, virtual meetings, but also in person meetings distance, I guess if you would, um, to again, reestablish the culture of our program, because we did not have any kids from the first year, come on to the second year, all 12 kids left, uh, uh, left our program. So when we had the head, that second year. We had to reestablish our culture, you know, and then the same thing with the third year, same thing with the fourth year. Every kid had to rehear on our end, rehear the, uh, the, the culture and what our non negotiables were every single year. And so, you know, for guys that are building potential AAU programs or postgraduate programs, this is something that I've had experience in, uh, you know, reestablishing the culture of your program. And at the end of the day, you really have to be good at Um, you know, we're gonna have to reestablish that, making sure that you are holding those guys to the standard every single day, because you're going to assume that some guys are coming into your program knowing that, hey, at Notre Dame, we're going to have X, Y, and Z, but really, they don't know what the previous year looked like, so they're going to have to learn that again, and as a coach, you're going to have to reestablish that and teach that, and your whole staff will have to teach that as well. Those are great points, and I think, you know, just a little plug here, we'd love you to follow us on social media out there, Facebook group that we're just getting going now. If you have questions. So if you have any questions about coaching at different levels and want some advice, I'm sure Nick would be happy to reply and get back to you, and so would I. I think the next part of this is what type of school are you coaching at? So we're talking about establishing your high school program, or maybe you're just curious at how these things happen and the difference between. So yours is a very unique case. Those are one year players for the most part. And then there's what I coach at a private school. We are, we play in the normal state association as a private Catholic school. We're not allowed to recruit players. We don't recruit players. Uh, but we do have the advantage of players being able to attend the school from different towns. So when you establish great culture and you have success, that's going to lend itself to attracting more players. It's, it becomes this nice, uh, Uh, revolving door of good players into the program because players want to be a part of that. So there, there is that advantage and in most states like our state in Connecticut, uh, the state association, uh, votes in rules that compensate for that advantage where you'll play up past your school enrollment. If you're starting a program at a public school and you get that job for the first time, there are some great examples in state. I think of Ridgefield high school as probably the best one. Where, before you do anything, you really need to establish your school, your team and program's culture at the youth levels. I think that's so important, where you need to get involved and know the youth coaches in your town, especially the town travel coaches. You know, begin to establish yourself as a regular presence in the gyms. Talking to those coaches, you will get into system, uh, much like a lot of schools do with football. So many times you watch the high school football team and it's so closely, um, resembling probably what the eighth grade in the seventh grade level. So if you're starting to, if you're doing a, if you have a public school program, it doesn't mean it's impossible to establish. It's, it's absolutely not. Now you even have an advantage because you could start it with kids at a younger age, running camps and clinics and being a guest speaker and being present at their practices, um, especially or having your staff do that. So it's time consuming, but it also can be an advantage. It's one that I wish we had. As a private school coach, I would love to be, uh, or have access to the younger players as they're coming up. And you're able to establish that much quicker. Yeah. And the, the hometown that I come from, uh, the coach that's been there for almost two years now has done a terrific job at, at getting that youth level going. Um, you know, I've had experience working with that youth level over the last couple of years now. And one thing that I've seen him do is he's in at town rec practices. You know, and it's not just watching one particular kid or two particular kids, you know, in fourth or fifth grade, but, but also jumping in and helping the coach establish, Hey, this is how we set screens. This is how we block out. This is how we rebound. This is how we want to run a transition. And ultimately you get more people on your page and on your side, where now you're bringing in a bunch of kids who are saying, Hey, this is the high school coach and he came to my practice today. Um, but he also goes to the travel teams programs, uh, and watches their coaches, uh, knows their coaches. Well, it tries to establish his. Um, you know, we've been talking a lot about X's and O's as defensive schemes, and, um, that that's one thing again, that's going to build up your not only your high school program, your middle school program, but your town program, and now all of a sudden, like you said, in football, where these towns have massive football teams, you know, 60 70 kids where now you're looking at a basketball program and say, Hey, it's not just a high school program, but where you are a full town of basketball players, and I think Richfield has done that really well. The next part is now, now you do get into the logistics of a high school program. You know, you, you start to plan out your year. And if you are, if you're starting to, uh, plan out your year in December or whenever your state association starts, it's too late. You know, you need to start building your program and building your plan in the spring. Understanding as a high school coach that AAU exists, not being resistant to that. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that high school coaches make, whether it's public or private, where it becomes us versus them. And that's a bad approach. Your players need AAU in their lives, in their, in their careers in order to, to, uh, gain exposure and potentially be recruited. So you're better off as a high school coach finding and networking with AAU coaches to help place your kids in programs that you trust and programs that are going to develop your players in the way that you hope they develop. And are going to give them that exposure that they need to get. So you need to establish that. That's your spring because most players you'll have workouts at school maybe, but it's going to be a little more challenging because a you is going to take up that time. You want to get them in the weight room. That's fine. You want to get them into a little every once in a while. That's fine. But you really need to know they're going to be playing a you and you got to support that. You can't take that old school approach anymore. That a you is terrible and I don't want my guys doing it. And these guys are, you know, stealing my guys or giving them bad ideas. And that's just, you know, It's, it's archaic and you're going to hurt yourself more trying to do that, especially nowadays since, since we have had the pandemic, um, in the high school or excuse me, the college kids did get that extra year. The spring season and the spring summer season became not as important, but close to as important as their high school season. Um, a lot of college coaches will recruit out of that spring and that summer, depending on, you know, the level of AAU that they're watching this kid play at. But to your point, coaches need to buy into that. I've seen coaches where they've knocked down the AAU programs and the local AAU programs and now all of a sudden there's a riff and essentially you make the kid decide. Like, do I want to play for high school for this coach or do I want to play for this specific AAU coach? And they're obviously going to do both, but the winter season for their high school season, they're not going to like as much because they know that you're opposed to that AAU season. And maybe you do like playing AAU basketball more, or you'd like that coach, a coach a little bit more. And so that, that kind of provides a rift between the player, uh, and the coach there. So, you know, as we get into the fall or closer to the season, what did the conditioning program look like for you as a coach and setting up your, your culture and the off season lifting or conditioning as you're building up towards the season? Sure. So offseason conditioner, summer conditioning and workouts. I think one, you need to know your state rules. What does your state allow you to do? And then from that, from there, you know, build, build your offseason plan. And so for, for us in the summertime, we're pretty much Monday through Friday. We bring the guys in in the morning. I'm not allowed to work with him. Although this year our state association, association, the CIC did change the rules. and give us two days a week where we were, we were allowed to work with our players. And that was great. Uh, but we would hire and we hire outside and the kids essentially able to come into gym and get workouts and things like that, but also then do strength and conditioning three times a week, which we also were fortunate enough to hire a strength coach. So our guys are, are making at least a two and a half to three hour commitment Monday through Friday. And I think that that has helped our program tremendously. But the first you have to get them to show up. and there speaks to culture. But, uh, Dan Hurley had a great comment on, on team culture. I read the other day, uh, trying to define what it meant, and it basically meant that, do, do you have everybody on your team working towards the same goals in the same directions, doing the same things? Not because they have to, but because they want to. I think I actually just added to that and maybe it sounded, it sounded pretty good. Sounded awesome. Yeah, it sounded, but it goes, it goes back to your non-negotiables that you talked about. You know? Work ethic. Being a good person. Having a good attitude. All of those things kind of apply to that, that philosophy. Yeah. And I think, again, it doesn't happen overnight. I think sometimes, um, it's funny now that I feel like an older coach, I've been doing it longer, and I talk to guys who are just getting into it, and they do get, tend to get frustrated when I just have conversations with them when the kids aren't getting it or they feel, um, disrespected because the kid didn't listen to them. You know, maybe their first reaction is to go off the handle and, and you really get on them. Like you didn't show up, you're not going to play and you're not going to, but I think if the kids don't want to do it, if they're not buying into it on their own, then it's not going to work anyway. And I think then the next part for you as a coach is, and I, and just, we've talked to this before. It's not like we know everything. It's just, it's just our experience, my experience. Right. And the one thing that's helped me a lot is the why with kids. Yeah. If you tell them why and it means something to them, you give them a good reason why you're doing it, what the result can be. What, you know, that why is very important in anything you're coaching from setting a great screen. You want your best player to be a great screener. You got to tell them why. If you're a great screener, it's going to free you up. If you move without the ball, it's going to free you up. So they need to understand that, and then you show them why. You don't just say, hey, set a better screen, or you're going to sit next to me. So anyway, but back to the off season, you know, just being consistent as a coach, it's your time. You're not getting paid a lot of money. That's, I think, one of the biggest things everybody needs to understand. If you're going into high school coaching, you should not go into it because you hope to make money. You're going into it because you love the game and you enjoy working with kids and seeing them improve. But you're going to have to be there. So if you're not there for these workouts, you know, around at least just showing your face, then the kids won't be there. And from the public school point of view, you know, obviously the gym time becomes a major issue for a lot of coaches because they, the high school gym is closed or they're going through renovations maybe during the summer. And that's going to be a difficult thing for a lot of, a lot of public school coaches where like a private school will have more access to the gym, but you know, you're going through your off season workouts, you're lifting, you're conditioning. Um, You know, maybe those couple practices a week that you guys have had this this offseason through the state of Connecticut You know as a public school coach It really comes down to getting creative You know You have to go to the local park that if you don't have a gym access or you can use like we talked about that youth Program to maybe help purchase a strength and conditioning coach in that offseason where it would become a huge asset for your kids and say Hey, we're gonna we're gonna spend some money to get a strength and conditioning coach For you to work with in the off season. And that's, that's something that, again, Helping kids show up and helping the, the public school kids Understand that there are levels to Becoming a successful high school, high school program. And ultimately having that coach be there And buy into them and show that, hey, We're going to be working in the off season Or as we lead up to the season is huge. And, and it's crucial. And, you know, Maybe you're one, it's, it takes a couple kids And then you're two and you're three and ultimately you build it Into something. Now you have, you know, 30 to 40 kids at your, your off season workouts in July, August and September where you're leading up to the season at this point, you essentially have built a good off season program. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, um, if you are a public school coach, you know, you, you had to know your athletic director and you got to really fight to get that gym access. It's not impossible to get into the gym. Teams are working in the weight room all summer long, football teams. And, you know, you just, You know, you just have to find somebody depending on your state and what your state, you know, Jersey's wide open in the summer. So they have full access to their kids, uh, once their spring season ends and then before their fall season begins. So there's great opportunity there. Um, okay, so let's, let's move on. We're getting into the season and, talk about for you, Nick, establishing your system, what goes into it? What do you. You know, are you adjusting your system, uh, based on your personnel or are you trying to adjust your personnel to your system? Now you, we're at an interesting point because you were a prep coach, able, allowed to recruit. It's not easy to recruit. So I can't say you're just getting anybody you want, but you can recruit to your system. And then maybe you speak to that a little bit, your perspective. And then. You know, I'll give mine because in the CIEC where you're not recruiting, you're not recruiting to a system necessarily, right? It's a little bit different. So talk about your experience there. Yeah at the postgraduate level in the prep level You know, whether it was at Notre Dame or Woodstock or or out in Arizona We did have the ability to recruit and that was a huge advantage for us. So being able to recruit helps your system. Um, or you, you know, if we out in Arizona, we played a two three matchup zone, uh, where we wanted to run everybody off the three point line and we wanted to have a 6 10, 6 11 or seven footer in the middle of the paint, just deterring everything that that came into the paint. So, so we recruited to that. And in that one year I spent out there again at the prep and post graduate level, our front line was 696 10. And just about seven feet. So six 11, um, and we played that, that matchup zone. We had two quick guards at the top, and then we had those three, uh, those three forwards and the one big there. And luckily we were able to go out the next year and say, Hey, this is, this is what we like to run defensively. And we're going to try to recruit the guys to find, uh, to, to play that type of defense. And that was, you know, that was great having that ability. Fast forward a little bit to Notre Dame and where we don't have the boarding necessarily, and we needed to recruit specific guys, um, or tried to recruit specific guys. We're not, we couldn't necessarily tailor it to our system. We essentially had to find, you know, 10 to 12 guys that were wanting to play at the prep level and wanting to play at that that collegiate level instead of altering, um, that recruitment strategy around what our X's and O's were. So The first year at Notre Dame, at Notre Dame prep, we had a bunch of quick guards, um, AJ Edwards, Shimo Daniels, uh, Gail Etienne. So we had a bunch of guys who were pressuring the basketball, and so we denied defensively, um, and that essentially helped us push the pace a little bit. We didn't necessarily have a shot blocker in the paint, but that was okay. We had a couple guys, 6'6 6'7 6'8 um, which ended up being some pretty good players and rebounded the ball well, which really helped. But recruiting took a turn that year after, We didn't have quick guards anymore, so we actually couldn't deny anymore. And I, I don't know if you remember us having this conversation, but I asked you about the pack line because we were pressuring the ball out past the three point line and we were getting smoked to the basket and we didn't have a shot blocker again. So we had to change our, our X's and O's and, and to the point where we ended up going to the pack line and that actually helped us with the strategy. So we weren't able to specifically recruit towards our X's and O's, but we actually changed our X's and O's to based off of who we were getting in recruiting. Um, you know, and that was, that was something that was again a little different because of the situation that we're in. But we were able to adjust and most coaches are gonna have to adjust, especially at the high school level where, you know, maybe you are just taking over a program or had just gotten a job and you need to build that youth program like we talked about in order to get kids Um, to play your style of defense or to play your style of offense. So, uh, recruiting to a system is beneficial in, in many ways. Uh, most times, and most coaches aren't going to be able to recruit to a specific system. So that system is going to have to be changed a tiny bit. Um, you know, I'm not saying that we have to flip the switch and go from full denied to full pack line, but, um, there's going to have to be some alterations there, you know, as you get different players throughout the years. You guys, I mean, your team was super fast that first year. That first year we were really athletic. I think for, for my team and my program, when we think about system, it's, you learn so much as a young coach, especially a young head coach, uh, when you're going through all the ups and downs. And what I realized was maybe I was over complicating things early on. Taking a lot of what I learned at the college level playing for Glenn Miller, who was also at UConn and Brown as a head coach and Penn head coach, really a brilliant mind. And even our defense, you know, we had different combinations of who was switching based on a number call and then a color call. And if you were denying or if you were in a pack line ish type defense. And then we finally realized that the teams that were in our league and the teams that we wanted to beat the best teams consistently, Particular type of man to man and just teaching that really well was the best way to go for us. And we made that adjustment. It must have been year 4 or 5. It was about halfway through the year. I mean, I got into like DVDs and YouTube and everything else on PaclineD just to learn it inside and out. That was a little bit of a unnerving situation but we were able to install it in about a week. Probably weren't doing it very well, but we were able to install it. And then we had a huge win against one of our rivals in the tournament and we were really excited about it. And so we kind of went into that mode and, and said, okay, we're going to be a Pac Line team. But then what's interesting, no shot clock in the state of Connecticut, and as we move on, and we start to improve as a program and as a team, and our talent level continues to improve, now we are finding ourselves in situations where we are playing Pac Line, Against teams that I thought we were clearly better than, especially towards the end of the season, the tournament and those teams were able to, the disciplined ones. We're able to hold the ball, not because they were trying to hold the ball necessarily, but because they were so disciplined to always get a great shot that we ended up playing defense for 40 seconds, 45 seconds. There was one state tournament game where we only had three offensive possessions in the first four minutes of the basketball game, not because they were holding it because they were so disciplined. And so then it makes you think as a coach. How do I evolve from here? And then we really did kind of morph into a team that not only plays pack line but out of our pack line transition to a run and jump as well. So I think there's a combination of knowing what you're really good at and what you really coach well and what can sustain across a lot of different matchups and opponents that you might play. We're talking defensively, but the same thing goes on the offensive end how you want to play. What's what can work for most players? Yeah. And then as time goes on, you start to tweak it and adjust it and add to it, um, to fit the players you currently have and the opponents that you're currently playing. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a great point. And again, for those coaches who are either just taking over programs, um, you know, these are great tidbits for, for, for all coaches of all levels, really just to help establish your, your program. And now as we get into season, you know, we're winning games and starting to prepare for the postseason. What have you done specifically with your teams, um, to help you guys prepare for the postseason, win in the postseason, um, and ultimately get to, let's say, a state championship? Well that, I could definitely speak to this from a ton of experience. And this is probably another thing that I think younger coaches should understand that there's going to be ups and downs. And depending on the program you're at, those ups and downs are going to be more or less public. And for me, it was very challenging. I took over for a legendary coach in the state of Connecticut, uh, top 10 in the state history, uh, for wins, very well known coach at the college level, very successful. And so taking over as a young coach felt like I was probably wasn't, but I felt like I was under a microscope in some ways. Um, and then we had started to have success. And in the post season. We, we kept falling short in our league tournament and in the state tournament and at different points and you could say there were upsets and we would probably argue that the position we were in as the favorite, just being in that position might've been an upset. We thought our guys may be overachieved a few times and then losing as a higher seed in the tournament felt like an upset, but we didn't really think that way. Uh, but the public perception was that those were bad losses and we had some. We lost to give some perspective. We lost three straight conference championship games, four out of five, you know, essentially I was Marv Levy in the sec and we were the Buffalo bills. That's what it felt like, you know? Um, so we learned a lot of lessons going through that as a coach, not to overreact, you know, to stay in the moment. Don't get caught up in officials. Uh, don't get caught up in negatives during a playoff game. Now, these are things that I've just learned over time. To just keep coaching the basketball game, so you think clearly and you can make the right decisions when those decisions, when those situations present themselves and they're looking to you to make those decisions, if you're caught up in other stuff, factors you cannot control, there's no way you're going to make the best decision and coach your best game in that moment. So, you know, it's been a learning curve for me. Uh, but now we've won three straight league championships and last year we won our first state championship. So we've definitely conquered that hurdle and we're still trying to improve and think about ways that we can improve as a staff and as a program, but it takes time and you've got to be able to handle disappointment. And then the last point on this, if you're a coach of a high school program and you have those, those disappointing moments and those are going to usually going to be these, those horrible losses. That just stick with you, you know, and they're, they're so people don't understand if you don't do it, you don't sleep at night. It just eats you alive, but you got to remember it's your responsibility to take that loss on as the coach and not put it on your players. I have had coaches that I have been around and played for where that post game after a tough loss. It was very obvious the coach felt it was the players. Who had solely lost the game and maybe put that loss on the players vocally. You can't do that. Whether it's in the press or in your locker room. You need to own the loss as a coach and then you can still address it. Of course the players messed up in certain points. They're on the court. You know, they're the ones who are competing. But, you address those things in film. You address those things a couple days later. As a group, you don't address it right after the game. Yeah. You don't put it on them right then. Their emotions are high. Your emotions are high. It's like, don't get on social media that night either. Just stay away from things. To keep it positive. You lost the game. Everybody's feeling the same way. You're going to improve from it. If you handle that situation the right way, if you handle it the wrong way, your program culture and everything that you've built to get to that point could fall apart just like that. And I'm going to touch upon something you just said, coach, is that is that it takes time. Um, you know, in today's day and age, the world that we live in, people expect coaches to win in year one, in year two, and even year three. And if you don't, a lot of people put the coach on that chopping block in year three, year four. Um, you know, and based off of your experience, uh, you know, you've been the head coach now, this is going to be year 11. You know, year 11, 5, 6, 7, or 4, 5, 6, 7, you suffered those tough losses. You know, you went through the grind with those kids and with your program specifically, and you learn these lessons through the experience. And now in year eight, nine and 10, you're, you're back to back to back champions and you're coming off your first eight championship, you know, which you had lost in previous seasons. So again, I think for coaches to really understand that, that we need to learn these lessons through experience and, and through time. It's not going to happen right away. You know, maybe in the early years you have a great player, and he helps you win a bunch of games, great. But great programs win over time, you know. And I think that's something that you've, you've really learned. And, and we've all learned, you know, going through the ringer a bit. Um, you know, and as we get to this, this last one here, you know, building your culture and your team, uh, through bonding experiences are, are different. Um, experiences as a group. Can you talk to what you've done with your teams, whether it's in the off season or even during the season, uh, trips you might've taken games you might've seen together, or maybe just some light dinners at your house or some of the players houses. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we, we've done culture building, uh, stuff. I think it's very natural the way that we've done it. We've had, whether it's a pool party at my house, we do that annually and get together. Um, but I think if you're building relationships. With your players, the most important thing that I think coaches need to do is understand kids need to know that you care about them. They need to know that it's sincere, that it's not transactional in any way. You've got to be around all the time. You've got to just check in, just, Hey, Nick, what's going on, man? How you doing today? How's school? How you doing in class? How's math? I talked to your teacher, you know, say, uh, you might be missing an assignment. You need some help with that. You know, hey, you've been late a couple of times. What's going on? You don't get in the bed in time, you know, but also just checking in and just having like a fun conversation with your, with your athletes and that relationship building. If first of all, if you're trying to do it, if it's forced, it's not real. So you probably shouldn't be doing it. Shouldn't be in coaching. It's got to be something you naturally enjoy doing. You can't just be distant and show up right before the season and then demand the best from your players. I can get on my guys pretty hard in practice. In the game, I don't really do that. That's just my style. In the game, I want to coach. I don't think that helps them in the game, but in practice, I can get on my guys hard. But they know because of all the time spent, hours and hours, 15, 20 hours a week, sometimes in the off season, just being around them, they know I care about them. And they know there's no way that me getting on them in that moment is personal. I want the best for them, and there is no doubt in their mind that that's the case. And that is the beauty of coaching. When you're doing it that way and you're building relationships, it just adds so much more opportunity for you to coach them the way you know they need to be coached to be successful. So, build that relationship with your players. Um, if you do get on them, If you're really yelling at a guy and he's having a hard practice, that's fine. As a coach, you need to do that sometimes. But if you let that kid leave the gym, without checking in with him or her, to say, hey, you doing alright? Like, that was a tough one. I know you're struggling. I got you. You know, I just want, I want to make sure that we're on the same page during practice. But, we love you, man. Like, you're going to be fine. If you don't check in before they leave, they're going to go home and it's going to sit with them. They're going to have a hard time probably eating, going to sleep, doing homework. They won't, and it may not even be a big deal to you as a coach that you got on them because you're like, Nah, he'll be fine. No, he won't. Just check in with him right before he leaves and make sure he's doing okay. And that's going to like, That'll end the situation and that kid's gonna get something out of the coaching and he's gonna improve as a result of it It'll change their mood almost immediately, you know where if you do it like just before practice Maybe they they go into practice say hey, you know coaches there for me and I know that you know I'm just gonna let this go and I'm gonna play my ass off and and See what happens, you know, but to your point if you don't do it It's gonna go the opposite way, you know And that could that could really force you into a struggle as a team that that player in particular but This part was probably one of my favorite parts, if not my favorite part, um, you know, at being a head coach is, is the maybe 20 or 30 minutes of mingling before we started to stretch. Um, you know, or just after we, we broke the huddle after a long time, a long practice. Um, you know, just being able to say what's up or being able to check in, you know, how's mom, how's dad. How's your, your brother or sister? Um, you know, knowing their favorite sports seems like, Hey, you know, I, you know, I know you're a big Yankees fan to, you know, big game tonight, you're going to watch and, and just being able to connect on, on that level. And in, in prep basketball, as we built our program, um, all the programs I started were startups essentially at one point. Um, so being able to connect with those players and, and understand, Hey, you know, you got to get that assignment in, or you have to, uh, make sure you call your mom when we had, when we had boarding. Call home, like make sure you call home, you know, don't play video games all day. That was crucial for, for kids to know that, Hey, you know, yes, he's my basketball coach, but also he's, he's going to be there for me if, if we have or have an emergency, or if we, if we are going through a tough time as a team, I know he's going to really put our team forward. Um, you know, and that was probably one of my favorite parts of, of being a head coach and, and ultimately, uh, kept a lot of connections for me, uh, currently, you know, I talked to a lot of my former players and they'll always say, you know, thanks for this. And that's not what we're doing it for, but. Um, you know, it, we're friends now, you know, and I enjoy talking with them. Um, you know, last topic here, coach, let's get into recruitment. Um, you know, as a, as a coach at the high school level and you want to build a successful program, obviously you want college basketball players. Um, you know, for, for a lot of high school coaches, whether it's public, private, um, and we could talk, I could talk on the prep part too. Where do you start, uh, you know, with helping your players get recruited or recruitment for the next level? Where should most coaches start? Well, I think the starting point is honest conversations with your players and their parents. You start out early when they come to the school. You talk about how hard it is to get recruited, but you talk about, you know, the best ways to do it. You know, how your program is going to help what they need to do as individuals. Um, but then you've got to be as a high school coach. able to realistically assess their level. And then that's going to put them on the right track, uh, to go to the right tournaments and AU for you to call the right coaches to come into workouts or come to games. But you also have to do a great job of selling their parents and those players on what level they are and getting them to agree with it. But always with a caveat, like prove me wrong. If I say you're a division three level, I only, what makes you division one player? What makes you a Division 1 player is one Division 1 coach saying they like you and offering you a scholarship. Now you're a Division 1 player. If you had all Division 3s and that one coach said that, now you are a Division 1 player. So I'll never take that dream away from kids. I'm not there to do it. I'm just trying to give them, uh, a little bit of realistic, uh, oversight in the process to say this is where you, you are probably going to end up. Then the next thing as a coach is you've got to turn into the best salesman, especially at the high school level, especially at the public school level. that you could possibly be for your players. My guys, we just give that example. I'll go into a practice and I'm just so frustrated with a kid, who's just can't get this concept or takes the worst shots or is struggling like crazy, whatever. I'll walk out of the practice and I'll get a call from a coach, college coach. And that kid is equivalent of like a Mercedes Benz brand new, fully loaded. That's how I'm conveying. How I feel about the kid. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not lying to the coach. I don't want, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to build this kid up to something he's not. I believe this kid will be that when that coach gets him. at the college level. And I've got to do a great job of not taking the frustrations I might have with him now as he's developing as a high school player into those conversations. I've got to be that kid's best advocate. and best salesperson out there. And, and so as a high school coach, you, you have to build relationships, starting with your local Division 3, Division 2, and Division 1 coaches. If you don't have those, if you can't pick up the phone and text those guys and they get back to you, you're gonna have a hard time getting your kids recruited. I mean a really hard time. Cause most of your kids are gonna be recruited regionally. So you as a high school coach have gotta have a relationship with all the schools surrounding your high school. To have any chance of getting your kids recruited, especially early on in the, in the early stages of building a program. Yeah, it's, it's crucial. And from my perspective, the biggest thing for high school coaches is understanding the levels of college basketball. And I think there's a few ways to help your case and understanding what kids should go where. Um, and the first one is skill and, uh, size, excuse me, size and athleticism. You know, coaches have to understand the size. of these guys playing at the division one level and I, you know, I'm not going to say just because you're 6'8 means you're a division one player. But if the, if your kid doesn't have the size and possibly the athleticism of being a division one player, then you shouldn't call a division one coach and say, Hey, I have a division one player. Okay. And the second one is skill. Obviously, um, we can all work on this and all players can work on this and understanding, but having. A high school coach understand the size athleticism and now skill of what it takes to be a division one player or just a scholarship level player at the division two level as well is like we talk about basically under 1 percent of all high school players across the country. The, the biggest one for me that, that I think most coaches will not understand completely is, is watching college games. You know, and, and that goes across all, all levels. Division one, division two, division three. Obviously it's a little easier for coaches to watch Division one basketball because it's right on their TV. Division. Two, they'll have to stream in or go to a local game, division three, they'll have to stream in or go to a local game. But if you think you have a college player, go watch a Division three basketball game. go watch a division two game and say, Hey, I could picture so and so playing at this level and I can picture somebody, um, you know, really competing at this level. And, and that's what did it for me. Um, you know, obviously I played division three basketball, so I, so I had an understanding of it. But as I got into the prep world, you know, obviously you watch division one basketball, but then you get A couple recruits in front of you and you think, hey, these guys are really good. And then you put on the game that night and be like, wow, you know, I, I'm not sure he's as good as, as that is, you know, and obviously there's different levels to division one and, and power five and being on TV is certainly one of them. But, you know, for coaches at the high school level, watching games and understanding, um, what certain players do at the division one level at the division two level or at the division three level is huge. And. Lastly is experience. You know, obviously you've been doing this for, for 11 years and you've had that experience at the college level. You've had that experience at the high school level. And now you understand and having a specific player right now who is that high major level, you understand like, Hey, we've had so and so, you know, you had, you had Greg Mangano who was able to play, um, at Yale and then ultimately be a professional. So you have seen what it's, what it's taken over the last decade or so of Kids who came up through your, your program and ultimately made it to that college level, all three levels, division one, division two, and division three. And then you've seen a couple of your players end up going to the pro level. And so as a high school coach, you can now speak on that experience, um, you know, and understand that, Hey, we have this kid, he's got tons of potential, but this is what you need to do from here on out. I think to say that as the coach, you've got to be able to Yes, identify the level and that comes with experience and we have had guys, um, had a player that had been the starting point guard at USC in the Elite 8, a point guard that was all SEC at LSU, a power forward who played for Penn State, and now, of course, this player and others who went on to different levels. You've got to trust your evaluation on your players when you're putting them on that recruitment track. I had a father come into my office and, almost a man, Um, Recruitment of his son, who was Going to be a rising senior for Me. And I had asked him, you know, What he was interested in, and I Was ready to give him my Evaluation and what level, and I Believed he was a division three Player with the potential to be A division two player. That was my eval on him. And the dad said, well, we're Going to be moving down south. This is a true story. And I think, uh, georgia, or Was it georgia? I don't know. He had another one. Maybe it was Georgia Tech. It's something like that. And I looked at him straight in the face. I said, you think your son is an ACC or SEC player? He averaged eight points a game from me. He's a good player. He's not overly athletic. He's not overly skilled. He's really good. He's an all state player next year for sure. And absolutely a college player. But that level is so high that they would have been in there. And he was furious with me. And ended up transferring out, the, the player ended up transferring out, but you have to accept that if you're a coach and you are having that conversation and you really want to keep that player, cause that player would have helped us win that next year, substantial more games. But if you're going to go ahead and say, yeah, and just, yes, people to death, you are building up dreams that are just not realistic. And that's not going to help you longterm. You've got to have credibility and have credibility. You've got to be willing to say. What needs to be said and that's just being honest in the evaluation. You can't just allow it, uh, to, to go anywhere. So I think the last bit of advice for me, you know, kind of along those lines is make sure you're in it for the right reasons. Enjoy it, you know, as a coach and you're building a program. If it's not fun for you, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. It's the best three and a half months in season. Of my year every year, I enjoy it so much. I look forward to it so much and I hate what it ends regardless of it ends with a state championship win or a state tournament loss. I can't stand when it ends. I love when the off season starts back up and in full force in the summertime. If you don't love it, if there's too much aggravation, there's probably a whole other episode of just managing parents and expectations and things like that that come along with coaching, we'll do that another episode, but if you don't love it. And you, then I probably would recommend that you don't get involved because the high school game is a different type of thing than AU and um, yeah, you want to make sure that you're in it for the right reasons. And that right there is how you build a successful high school program. We talked, uh, we talked preseason. We talked in season, postseason, uh, and some offseason stuff, um, along with recruitment. Uh, we are locked in. Your source for everything basketball. My name is Nick DeFeo alongside my co host Jason Shea. We dive into all things hoops, recruiting tips, training advice, and hot takes. Please don't forget to subscribe and follow us for more, great content every week. Thanks for listening. Appreciate it.