Episode 10: The GOAT Debate: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James – Who’s the Real King?

In Episode 10 of Locked IN Basketball, hosts Nick DeFeo and Jason Shea dive into the ultimate basketball debate: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James. Who truly deserves the title of the greatest of all time? From career achievements to Finals performances, defensive prowess to cultural impact, we break down the stats, intangibles, and legacy of these basketball legends.

Is it MJ's 6-0 Finals record or LeBron's unparalleled longevity and all-around dominance? Let us know who you think takes the crown!

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Transcript

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Welcome to locked in your source for everything. Basketball. My name is Nick to fail alongside my co host Jason Shea. We'd have it to all things hoops from recruiting tips and training advice to hot takes in the latest news, whether you're a player, coach, parent, or fan, we've got you covered. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us for more great content every week. At locked in underscore basketball and x locked in underscore basketball on all other platforms youtube facebook, etc. Subscribe and follow Coach what's going on? How you doing today? I'm doing great nick, you know today. We've got a different type of episode I'm, very excited to get into some debating with you for once here. Yeah fun episode. We're going to start our player comparison Uh, episodes today. Um, and we are going to start with nonetheless, Mr. Michael Jordan against Mr. LeBron James. So what are your thoughts on, uh, on starting with LeBron and Mike? I have so many thoughts, but I think it's, it starts with yesterday. I think I was in the gym or two days ago and I, you know, we were talking about what we were going to do for this episode. And the kids asked me and I think they had this debate with, was it you or somebody else in school? And they were, they get very heated about it. And I think that the important thing to remember when you're, you're having this debate, it's definitely generational. Yeah. It's true. It's who you grew up watching. Although, you know, I think for me, I've had the, the opportunity to when I was a high school student, Michael Jordan was the guy, but I still continue to stay in basketball and watch the bronze. So you have an appreciation for both. It's not like we're having a debate here of who's making the team. We're talking about who's the best, you know, we could, I guess some people could debate if there's somebody else that should be in the discussion. I think there probably are other guys that would be in the discussion, but this is certainly the debate, you know, the time and the kids are into it. So we figured we'd bring up some facts and get to it. Yeah. We're looking forward to that. And I've had the, the, I guess I was born in 92. So I had the ability to catch Jordan, uh, on his, his last legs there, especially in Washington. I actually saw him play. Um, in person, uh, one of his last games, which was, I think, in New Jersey when the Nets were in New Jersey. So that was pretty special. Um, and then, obviously, I've been in basketball since. So, uh, LeBron's been my guy. So I've been, uh, I've been excited to have this conversation and, and looking forward to this episode. Yeah, me too. I'm just happy that we're the ones with the microphone. So everybody's got to listen to what we say today. And then in the comments, hopefully they could, you know, you know, give their their opinion, you know, hopefully they're gentle with us on this because, you know, we're just given, you know, what we see and I think, you know, from my perspective,, I'll just come right and say it in my my choice for number one and the greatest all time is Jordan. And I don't think it's as close as everybody makes it out to be. Now, that's just my opinion. I'm not, uh, talking about the length of a career. We're not talking about longevity of a career. LeBron's stats are tremendous. He has, uh, won four championships. Uh, he has taken teams that, you know, Cleveland never won. Was able to go to Miami, win there, and then win again with the Lakers. So he's been able to do it across the board. A wide range of teams and different personnel where he's had to adapt. I think LeBron's career is more like to like an AAU career. He's, he's hopped around all over the place, uh, but made every team that he's gone to better. Um, but you know, for me, it's Jordan just to start out. What about you? Yeah, I mean, I've been a huge LeBron guy ever since, uh, you know, he was at St. Vincent, St. Mary, and that's been, um, you know, He was kind of coming up as I was playing and finishing up my, uh, you know, high school career is he was finished up his career and, um, kind of being that top recruit and growing up in high school. We always checked like the rankings because we had actual rankings and the ESPN, you know, top 25 top 50 top 100. So we would always see the guys and, you know, where they're committed to and all that when we were basically the same age as those guys. So, um, you know, I'm going LeBron today. Um, and I, and I have a few, um, Um, I don't know if that's one of the key points that that we'll talk about. Um, but the just the versatility in the all around play, um, from LeBron when the expectation was just so high, uh, coming out as you know, whatever he was 18 or 19 years old out of high school. And ultimately getting to his pro debut and in his pro debut basically set the stage like this is who I am. I'm accepting this challenge and I'm going to be the best player that there is. Um, and I think just, just him having the ability to do that is unlike any other person that we've ever seen, you know? And again, the times will change. Um, and yeah. I agree with you. It's been more like an AAU career and we can discuss that the kind of back and forth and he ultimately set the tone him and really Kevin Durant kind of set the tone for the bouncing back and forth and this team and that team and free agency. And ultimately it ended up getting these guys more money, which I'm sure they care about. But today I'm going LeBron. I'm excited to have this conversation. Um, You know, and I guess we can start with with kind of like the longevity and in my opinion This is year 22 for lebron james. He's had 21 years in the league and averaged 27. 1 points over the course of his career. Um, you know, and it's it's Over 1500 games, uh, and that's not including the playoffs seven and a half assists seven and a half Rebounds per game all while doing it at a 50 percent clip from the field. Um Um, obviously just, uh, eclipsed the, uh, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, all points mark. And then this season just hit 40, 000 points. First player to ever do that. Um, you know, from my opinion, I think. having that longevity just completely sets them apart from any other player that's ever played the game before. Um, but not only playing for that long, continuing to play at a high level, and we're seeing that this year, you know, the last the last week or so he's been on a heater and knocking down threes, which has been a Part of this game that he really struggled in early on in his career, but ultimately Found his way shooting in the last couple of years and he's been shooting it at a great clip and Still essentially has a team on his back and and is leading the lakers to to some victories in year 22 So, you know, that's that's my first key point for lebron It's just his longevity and the ability to continue to play at a high level at his age Yeah, I mean the three point shot is certainly improved for lebron I think we all improve with our jump shots after we're done playing because we call it like old man shooting, right? You He just happens to still be playing and now he's shooting the ball better. So I think that's part of it. Uh, very impressive part. I think that to me, LeBron has the most impressive career of all time because of how long he's done it. You just said it averaging 27 points per game for the entire length of his 22 years now in the NBA. And then also really look at his other stats. He does impact the game in such a variety of ways. I don't have him in front of me, but he's got to be top five in other stat categories. Probably if I had to just throw it out there, it'd have to be like rebounds and assists. If I'm, I can't imagine he's not because of how long he's played and how impactful. I'm thinking about how many triple doubles he's had since we started watching LeBron play. So LeBron, to me, probably the most impressive career of all time. So. So, anybody who's going to be upset with me for picking Jordan, listen to what I'm just saying right now. The most impressive career of all time. What we're debating right now is, who's the best player of all time? Who's the best basketball player? So if we get onto a court, and you had to pick, you're a general manager, and you're in the NBA finals, and your entire team quit the team. And now you get to draft a team. Okay, that is going to play in that NBA final seven game series. Who are you taking Michael Jordan or LeBron James in that seven game series? Who are you taking? Michael Jordan in the prime of his career, which arguably is maybe 10 years worth of time with that little break for baseball in the middle of it or LeBron James in his best 10 years? Who would you take? My feeling there is you would have to take Michael Jordan. Because in that scenario, Michael Jordan has proven time and time again that in the biggest games, in the biggest moments, he is dominant. He averaged Over 30 points a game over his career. I think he has the highest overall average throughout his career Right am I wrong on that in the nba in nba history? He has 37 points one season, which Is the highest ever averaged in a single season, I believe I could be making some of this up But we could fact check it all, you know later on and maybe put it on the screen where we're just making up stats Which is what you have to do in a great debate Michael Jordan is 6 0 in NBA Finals, and I don't think any of those series even went to a Game 7. So to me, Nick, if you're doing this, you start with, okay, how do you compare these two guys? You cannot compare Total numbers accumulated stats. You can't do it and that's a credit to LeBron and the shape that he has stayed in It's a credit to LeBron not only the shape he stayed in but the impact that he's had even in these years right now He's still one of the top 10 players in the NBA right now if I had to pick him with my team right now He's definitely in the top 10 if I'm just picking for one season because you don't know how long he's gonna keep going But we can't compare players. It's not apples to apples to use longevity Yet is lebron done a better job of staying in great shape of of staying prime Absolutely. He's done better. He's better at jordan than that But is he better at jordan in that scenario prime verse prime one series? Would you really take LeBron in that situation? Yeah, again, if it comes down to one series and you're in the finals, um, you know, looking at the NBA final statistics here for LeBron, 10 seasons, he's reached the NBA finals. 10 seasons, including, I believe it was nine in a row, um, from, yeah, 2010 to 2018 here, nine in a row. Albeit they ran into some powerhouse teams, you know, again, you can't compare the. LeBron James Miami, he or the LeBron James Cleveland Cavaliers against the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls. It's it's impossible to do and it will always be impossible to do but man what I'd love to see the Golden State Warriors prime Golden State Warriors play Michael Jordan's Bulls because that would just be what rules what rules are using. Either. All right. I want to know that because that is different. No question. And that's why we can't compare teams and it's really hard to compare players from today to, you know, back in the 80s and the 90s and even before then with bird and magic. You just can't do it, you know, cause you're, you're driving down the lane and have a check is, is rocking you into the ground and you're fighting, you know, that, that's, that's just something that happened. Um, and that's, that was a part of the game at that point. And I forget who it was, but someone just came out recent recently and said that they should allow fighting two minutes of fighting and NBA games, which is hilarious, but turn it into like a hockey situation. Yeah. Just let them fight for two minutes and get back to playing, which is nuts. But anyway, back to this, you can't compare teams, um, but LeBron going to nine straight NBA finals and. Uh, you know, 10 overall has been nothing short of amazing. Um, where's the points per game here? Here we go. 22, 18, 29, 25, 28, 36, 30, 34, 34, and 30. And I believe he was the first player to ever average a triple double in the NBA Finals, um, which was in 2016, 2017, when his Cleveland Cavaliers ended up beating the, uh, Excuse me. That was a year prior, but, uh, he averaged 33. 6 points per game, 12 rebounds per game and 10 assists per game, which is just ridiculous. So if we're talking, I need one player to create a team to start in the NBA finals. Um, and I'm looking at the finals performances from all time. I think that's got to be the greatest finals performance ever. You know, you're averaging 34 points a game, 12 rebounds and 10 assists. Um, You know, and all you're shooting it at a, you know, 50, 50. 5 percent clip that I don't think it really gets any better than that, regardless of who you put around him. And we're talking that team where, uh, J. R. Smith and Tristan Thompson, uh, Kyle Corver, if I'm not mistaken. So, you know, he had some, some guys who were a part of the team. Um, and on any other team shouldn't have been there, you know, in, in my opinion, but he ultimately had the team on his back and led them, uh, to a win against the Warriors in that year when they were, uh, when they set the record for most all time wins all while doing this, uh, averaging a triple double. I think all fair points and great performances, but I would point out just a couple of things on LeBron where I would say. Okay. There's a difference between, again, accumulating stats and winning basketball games. One, if you look at the end of games, Jordan's ability to finish off games on the perimeter with his mid range shot, the best mid range shot in the history of the game, and his ability to hit it in key moments, nobody has ever been able to do the same thing. Nobody's been able to replicate that. I think sometimes you watch some of those NBA finals, when the game got tight, just eye test, LeBron definitely Was still trying to get to the basket. He was very similar to Yannis in some of those games where he just physicality and try to get closer to the basket in order to be effective. And he was effective, but when you get into the last five or six possessions of a game, you got to have somebody who has the ability to just rise up and knock down shots. Not that he never knocked down shots. I'm just, Pointing out that I think Jordan did that so consistently and it made him more dangerous because he could score in any single way in a big spot and he did do that. Defensively, I don't think it's even a comparison between Jordan and LeBron. And you think about how you win NBA Finals, how you win playoff games. I watched LeBron long enough to know, like, he's very intelligent, uh, on both sides of the floor, but LeBron defensively is not a lockdown defender. And I'm sorry if you guys, if you hear that and you don't like hearing it, he's just, he's, that's not been his game. He hasn't been a lockdown defender. Jordan routinely guarded. Other teams best players in the biggest series. Jordan was on the all defensive team almost every single year of his career Jordan was the nba defensive player of the year. Lebron has never done those things So Jordan, as prolific a scorer he is, and we talk about it, you know, with AAU all the time, and kids, you know, don't just be one dimensional, don't just be a scorer. This guy was the best offensive player in the NBA, and the best defensive player in the NBA, at the same time. So I think when you look at that, that speaks volumes to just being an overall, uh, Impactful player and as impactful as you can be I'll get back I'll let you go next but I'll get on to the teammates next and then I do want to say just one thing on The rules Nick and you you know, we could talk about the rules, but 2004 the hand check rule went into place Jordan's done for the most part you can't hand check on the perimeter Defensive three seconds is put into play in the NBA So now you can't camp out a center in the middle The game opened up, completely changed. And that also has to be said when it comes to Jordan's era, if you look at what they had to go through, you know, in terms of, you know, defensively getting crushed. Watch those old documentaries of the Pistons. I mean, it was just flat out violent. Watch guys clotheslining guys on breakaways. It was really tough out there for those guys. So I think that also has to be said in terms of what would Jordan have been like when In this era of basketball, not being allowed to hand check him. I just don't even think he'd be guardable. I think 37 would be an afterthought per game for his entire career. Yeah. I'm going to start with the defensive thing. And this is one gripe that I've always had for LeBron James. And again, I'm a huge LeBron fan. I've always been a LeBron fan and always will be a LeBron fan. Um, the one thing I think that he doesn't get enough credit for is his basketball IQ. He is. More or less the smartest man in the NBA more or less the smartest player in the NBA and has been for the last Couple of years plus or minus maybe a few guys like a Chris Paul type. He's definitely up there. Absolutely, but he is but but he's he's one of those guys and The one thing I think LeBron could have done a little bit better is the fact that he could have guarded a another player or shut another, tried to shut another player down in some of his bigger moments. Um, you know, you can go really to any of the NBA finals that he lost, uh, you know, the spurs one early, they were, they were just outmatched. The spurs were. Unbelievable in their day. Um, that early run let's talk, his first run with. Miami when they met Dallas in the, uh, in the NBA finals, and they ended up laying an egg and losing to Dallas, which that should have never, ever happened. He was lost in that series, and I'll be the first one to admit it. He was, and he could have stepped up defensively in a big way. But one thing I think moving forward from that point, he kind of turned it around. They ended up winning a few and then losing again to the Spurs later on. As he. I think this is a kind of a wild take, but he essentially punked his coaches into not letting him do that. And I think, I think the main reason why is because everybody thinks and maybe they're right, but LeBron is maybe the smartest player out there or the smartest person out there, even including their coach. And at the coach at the time in Cleveland, I think it might've been like David Blatt or obviously it was Spolstra in Miami. But he essentially punked his coaches into not Having him guard somebody else as opposed to guarding like a Dirk Nowitzki down the stretch in the NBA finals in 2010 and 2011 or certain mismatches in certain players in the finals as they got deeper into it with Miami, the Spurs the second time and then Cleveland when they ran into the Warriors situation. So that's the one gripe I have for LeBron is defensively. I think he could have done a little bit different, done things a little bit differently when he was in the finals, especially in some of his bigger moments where he could have said, You know what? I'm not really worried about the offensive end. I'm going to I'm going to step up and I'm going to guard Steph or I'm going to guard Dirk or I'm going to guard Kawhi and I'm going to really lock those guys down and prove a point here defensively. The second thing we were talking Jordan back in the day in the rules. I The rules. No question. Just watch any, like you said, any documentary, any game from YouTube, any the eighties nineties. It was a bloodbath out there. However, the size and the length now is substantially greater than it was back in those eighties in the nineties. And I'm not saying there wasn't guys that are the same size, but the size and the speed of guys now. Have changed, uh, for the greater for the better. So we're taking guys out of the lane, you know, the defensive three seconds to hand check stuff. But also if LeBron, excuse me, if Michael Jordan's driving to the basket, he doesn't have like a, uh, not that Wemby's a huge force yet, but a Wemby down there, a Rudy Gobert down there, um, somebody with, you know, seven foot wingspan plus, you Blocking shots or or, you know, getting there. Am I saying they're going to block him every time? No. Am I saying he's not going to score 37? No, because I do agree with you. I think I think 30 plus is is light for Jordan in today's NBA. Um, you know, but I do think the rules change helped. A lot of players, including LeBron James and one of those players being Michael Jordan is a generational player where like you could put him in the forties and fifties. He'd be the best player in the league. He could put him in the 2010s and he's up right there with LeBron as the best player in the league. No question about it. So, you know, again, I will agree with the defensive thing for LeBron, albeit he's an unbelievable defensive player as it is, and maybe has one of the best defensive plays of all time, the block on a good dollar in the finals. Um, You know, but I do think the length has played a factor into that, um, not changing the rules, but, but, you know, I don't think Jordan had to deal with some of the players and some of the size and the length that LeBron has to deal with today and has dealt with in the last decade or so. Yeah, I think the players have changed a little bit. Uh, I do, I do again, even when you go back generations, I do think that the, even the camera quality and the technology probably doesn't do justice to how fast and athletic guys were. If we're being fair, he did, you know, Tim Duncan's and you go back to David Robinson's and what what did these guys look like in person? What would they look like now? I think they'd be more comparable than than we might think. I think that definitely the players don't have changed what we've done essentially in this era with the new rules is we've swapped out the power forward for a fourth guard. That's what we've done. Sure. You know, Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley are gone. Yep. Even charles barkley to an extent the position that that he played kind of i'm not saying charles barkley would be gone He'd certainly be in Just saying that that position Is totally different how many bulky power forwards exist anymore because that you know and lebron Actually would have existed absolutely great in the jordan era because of his physicality He would have done fine. And if you let lebron be more physical on defense Then he then he might have won some defensive mvps because his physicality is just outstanding. So if you had the ability to use that, sure, I think it changes things. Yeah, I think I definitely agree with that. And I think that that clunky power forward from back in the day has ultimately essentially become like a center for some teams. Now you look like a dream on like a dream on green sometimes plays the center for the Warriors. If, uh, if you know their traditional centers are out, but most teams now have gone to like that. 6 11 7 ft 7 ft 1 center, lanky, athletic, rim run, pick and roll, and then what you basically are doing is you're drawing the weak side in off these guys and then tossing it to the weak side for a three point shot to become like the game, correct? Three point shot is revolutionized. Now, Steph Curry did that and then analytics kind of finished the job. No question. And they're making that center now. If you're trying to get into the league at some point from from college, you have to hit the three. And that was a big, not knock, but a big thing. I know Donovan Klingon had to work on this past year, and he's had a few already this year. And if you want to stay relevant in the game as that center, you know, that seven foot plus old school center, if you would, you got to be able to shoot the ball, you know, and that's, that's a lot of things that this, the incoming centers are hopeful to do now. But again, skinny, lanky, Um, rim run, block shots, get up for dunks and essentially be able to knock the three down or make passes off of like a pinch post or the top of the key for, for the centers now. So, um, you know, I do think LeBron would have been a fine player back in the day and in those eighties, nineties era, because again, physically he would have matched up perfectly. And I think being more physical might've actually helped his game. I will say I just wanted to give me the Bulls any day over the Warriors. I'm putting Pippen on curry Yeah, I got Jordan on clay or or just switch those two Jordan on curry Pippen on clay and then Rodman on Draymond I'm taking that all day. Yeah, the matchups work for the Bulls Uh, I should say that the when you match up like that and you have that length, but again You look at those 90s bulls and you're talking pip and jordan and rodman all three All three of those guys can play in any generation. They have the size They have the length and they have the athleticism of the guys who are playing today But isn't it funny you say that but rodman wouldn't play in this like he would not be who he was because He would not be valued Even as he was like it's just the analytics and everything else He's an example of a guy who wouldn't be valued and that's why when I look at that team and I say, okay Put them against them. I don't say it like in such a way that the Warriors wouldn't have any success against them I just say in a way that Jordan is gonna keep knocking down threes Like, you know, just every single two's pull up jump shots constantly get into the basket He's going to get filed in today's era. Pippen's going to get to the basket Neither one could really shoot the three that great if you look at their career numbers Then you put in a steve kerr or john paxton who was like their special three point shooter they'd have on the wing there Very different robin couldn't shoot it He wasn't shooting it, and their centers were like Bill Cartwright. You guys think Jordan had such a great supporting Go watch Bill Cartwright shoot the ball. Go watch him shoot the ball. I've seen it. And then try to get somebody to do that effectively, okay? The players were a little bit more unique. I think there was a lot more uniqueness in players back in the day. They, they had their, like, way of shooting the ball, and they just kind of repped it so many times it became successful. But, you know, he had some guys around him, man, that, you know, Luke Longley How good do you think Luke Longley was? You know, he made guys better, and he was so impactful on the floor. I also just to touch on the point you said it, LeBron being in 10 finals. It's so impressive, and there's no question that's impressive. But compare again the two in their prime. The Eastern Conference during LeBron's era, and he has stayed in Eastern Conference up until, he stayed in the Eastern Conference up until the Lakers. Where now you could see he, how many finals he's been in with the Lakers? Because now, now he's in the good conference, and if you count the COVID bubble year, which again, That's a tough one for me when we're comparing finals. I'm sorry. It's just not I'm not saying it wasn't a championship But it's just not the same How's he doing in the West at Western Conference? How many finals? It's not the same He's played in the weaker conference and as a result made a lot of finals Jordan played in the Eastern Conference you go back to that area and you're trying to compare two guys in their primes The western conference was today's eastern conference It was absolutely the weaker conference the eastern conference in jordan's era had the pistons with isaiah thomas had the nicks with patrick ewing Had um, i'm gonna leave somebody out right now and I had in my mind They were just i'll come back to in a second the the sixers were good at some at one point on the celtics Of course the celtics were still They, in Jordan's early part of his career, were the team, and as he progressed through the Pistons, had taken that over. But the Eastern Conference was where it's at, and Jordan had to navigate that early in his career. Jordan had to get through that challenge with the Pistons. Because Indiana, like, mid to late 90s. that's, that's, that's there too. And the Western Conference had the Lakers. And then it was like a collection of teams that every year like the jazz phoenix spurs phoenix with barclay houston with drexler but there was no comparison so jordan getting to Six finals out of the Eastern Conference again, they had that year and a half in between baseball where if he were playing, he's probably in there as well and then winning all six and being the finals MVP in all six and never going to a game seven in all six. To me is still more impressive than lebron getting to 10 finals Most of those coming out of an eastern conference that let's face it You mentioned the guys that he was playing with the fact that they were able to get to the the finals with that roster Speaks a little bit to what the eastern conference really was and then they did build a super team in miami And he still did not win, you know What is he in miami two and two with what was supposed to be their super team? So I I again I just think that 10 is great But jordan I still say is more impressive given The apples to apples comparison on what they had to get through to get to that point. Right. And you're, you're going to be a product of your environment. Right. And LeBron getting drafted by Cleveland is a, uh, you know, Hollywood, you know, story and him getting drafted to his hometown is, is one of the best things that could have ever happened to Cleveland in general. But, you know, he gets drafted to the Eastern conference and what is it? Uh, he ends up going to the NBA finals in year three, you know, his, his third year in the league. His fourth year in the league, he ends up going to the NBA finals. And I think that kind of put everybody on notice of how good this dude actually was early on in his career. And you know, the, the next couple of years, they end up running into like a Celtics team with Paul Pierce and Kevin Gardner and Ray Allen and whatnot. So the East was good early on in LeBron's career, the Pistons, um, They end up winning the championship, but then the move to Miami is no doubt in my mind, uh, calculated. I definitely agree with you there. It's calculated. We're going to create a super team in the east. The east is probably still the lesser conference at that point. Um, but we're going to create that super team in the east and make sure that we, we kind of run this conference. And then when they, when they went, that's made that super team, they had the run for four in a row. They laid the duck to Dallas. Um, they went two in a row. And then they end up losing again to, uh, San Antonio, um, on their, on their last way out or on Kawhi's last, you know, last legs there in, in San Antonio, but I will argue that LeBron created the East to be that way. I think a ton of free agents and a ton of guys chose to leave the East and which ultimately created the Western Conference being good, being stronger for the latter part of LeBron's career and the majority of LeBron's career because of him. You know, I will argue that that. That is why the Western Conference is the way it is, you know, and again, LeBron being drafted to the East first couple of years, he obviously recognized that the East is probably his best chance to continue to get to finals. And I think for LeBron, it was, let's get to as many finals as I could possibly get to, to see if I can catch six and obviously that's been what his whole career has been all about. Can I catch six? Can I catch six? And he hasn't gotten there yet and I'm not sure he will get there. Um, they have a great team this year and moving forward, he, you know, who knows what happens with free agency and him moving teams and all the other players moving teams, but. In my opinion, he ultimately created the Eastern Conference to be the weaker one because nobody wanted to face him. And I think their, their best chance of coming out to the, or getting to the NBA finals and winning a championship was by joining a team in the West. Um, Um, ultimately, you know, KD ended up staying in the West from OKC, going to, going to Golden State, didn't want to go to the East. Um, Giannis was one, was one in the East, uh, Kawhi ended up coming to Toronto for a second, um, but then went back to LA. So again, I, I think a ton of guys when they had their free agency moments switched from East to West, um, and LeBron ended up creating that, that powerhouse wherever he was in, in the Eastern Conference and, and being the ones that, uh, Made it to the NBA finals every year because nobody else wanted to deal with it. Yeah, I think, but I think you're also touching on a reason why a lot of people in my generation. Also would use that as an argument for Jordan because LeBron also did create this new environment and this new super team thought or you know process or Gameplan to win championships and you say you got close in Cleveland, but then he bailed and he went to Miami I don't care like I don't fault anybody for going anywhere. They want to go to I'm just saying that again You're comparing legacies You're comparing these guys in their primes Jordan got close real close coming out of the east You knew if you came out of the east you had such a great chance to win when the Pistons beat him two years In a row, they won the NBA championship two years in a row You knew if you got out of the east you were a favorite to win Jordan could have I guess looked around and said where can I go to beat these guys and he didn't do that And that's you know, maybe there wasn't the opportunity. Maybe the rules were different, but I think when you're comparing You People in my generation look at that and say, Jordan toughed it out. And, you know, I, we lose AI all the time. AI is a great tool. And you type in AI and you say, what separates Jordan from LeBron? And it's really interesting that AI brings up intangibles, mental toughness, um, clutch play, uh, cultural icon. Like he, he did things like staying with the bulls, fighting through adversity. And after those two defeats coming back and finally beating the pistons and getting over the hump. That make it more palatable for, for our generation to say, wow, this guy stuck with his team. There's a lot of loyalty. Of course he finished with the wizards, but that was just kind of like, I got partial ownership and I'm trying to sell tickets. He wasn't, I think, in a point where, you know, seriously thinking he's going to compete to win. So, you know, I, I don't blame the guys now and it's fine. The guys are moving around, but I don't think like LeBron being calculating and that, I think sometimes is what turns him. It's the only thing that turns me off. It does seem like sometimes he's calculating whether it's with coaches or with his teammates. You know, again, just picking where he's going to go and staying in the Eastern Conference because it's a better chance, get to as many as I can to try to get to six. Well, six doesn't even matter to me anymore in the debate because you've already lost six. You've lost as many as Jordan won, and you won four, which is great. One in the bubble. Can't help that, not your fault, but you've already lost six. Jordan won six. Jordan lost zero, and I would argue that Jordan would have had two more. If Jordan, you know, Jordan's dad passed away, for whatever, you know, you watch the documentary, try to get a feel why he left, he wanted to, you know, fulfill a dream that he had with his father to play professional baseball. He leaves in his prime to go play baseball for a year and a half, and then comes back and ends up winning another three in a row. And he's the only player to win three in a row twice. So, again, I just can't get off the fact that Jordan, you know, in this, uh, Apples, apples comparison is, is, is still the guy. Yeah. And, and again, I'm going to keep referencing the, the, you're a product of your own environment. And after Jordan finished up basically in Washington, the popularity of the NBA was obviously at an all time high George and Jordan had created that. Yeah. You just mentioned too. I didn't want to throw this. Jordan did that, but you said like LeBron got guys to other, you know, he has an impact show on the NBA, but nobody has impacted the NBA. What, how Jordan impacted the NBA in terms of money. No one everybody that exists today and makes what they make today owes it to michael jordan It's it started with bird and magic obviously and bird and magic were finished up their careers as jordan came in Which was a perfect segue for the nba and david stern as he was trying to take the nba global and and expand on that So it was a perfect segue from magic and bird into jordan and jordan took it over You know at that point in time was very You Clearly the best player to ever touch a basketball, um, and and all through the nineties and then obviously in the early two thousands. And I know throughout that there was negotiations of of the collecting collective bargaining agreement and what the NBA is going to do in terms of player revenue and owner sharing and all of that. And that is Jordan hands down. LeBron comes in as Jordan now has retired. So we're starting to move right into Jordan. Excuse me, LeBron. Um, and LeBron now takes over as this phenom and he ends up going through the early 2000s and into like 2010 when he finishes up his first time in Cleveland. He Uh, Understands the business of the NBA and ultimately knows that there's going to be another collective bargaining agreement, and the popularity of the NBA now in the early two thousands is even greater than it was when Jordan and we can credit that to technology and obviously and being able to stream and Showcase games across the world now. Um, and then anything after 2010 was a straight up business decision. And again, I understand that the, the different, um, generations are going to, uh, cringe at LeBron and I, I totally get that, but you're only a product of your environment and LeBron understood and had the smarts to understand that this is a business and if he were to, um, continue to, let's say, stay with Cleveland, he's essentially losing money by. Whatever, ticket sales, jersey sales, he could have in by going to Miami, he ultimately creates the super team, which again lifts the NBA to new heights, and then ultimately Kevin Durant does the same thing, and now you're having super teams, and then the interest of the NBA continues to grow and continues to grow, and I think early on, and, and Players making what they what they made in the early 2000s and into the 2010s was Jordan. No doubt. And I think now that we're past 2020 and as we continue to go through, I think that's going to be mostly LeBron and guys are making 60 million a year at this point. And I think LeBron had that understanding of the collective bargaining bargaining agreement and ultimately what it means for players and player safety and salary wise as they continue with their careers. Again, LeBron is very good at calculating things, but I don't give a shit like to me. I just don't care like he You said Jordan. I mean well bird magic what made bird magic great Rivalry. Mm hmm. They weren't nice to each other. They weren't I mean eventually they were nice to each other But they that's not what they were. They were true rivals on the court. They were absolute You know, they probably hated each other on the court and fans love that You It loved it. That's what you want to watch Jordan and Isaiah Thomas on the court Jordan against bill lamb beer scotty pippin these guys They they wanted to kill each other on the court. They were rivals They didn't lose a game and isaiah didn't go and sign with the bulls Or vice versa. Jordan didn't go sign with the pistons I don't care what anybody says. That's the only thing that's missing now. It's coming back a little bit I started i'm starting to see it it gets me interested a little bit more again You But I do think there was a risk there when guys, do you want to be beloved by fans, all fans? The younger generation has followed suit, AAU switching teams, high school switching teams all the time. I think it's followed their leaders in the NBA. They have followed their leaders. I don't think there's any doubt that the culture has followed LeBron's lead and then Durant's lead. Okay. I guess that's our, I understand the calculating part of it and the money part of it, but it's still not the same. Okay. I don't care what anybody says, it's not the same. Kevin Durant going to join the Warriors after losing to the Warriors. I love Kevin Durant. I think, if I had to pick a team, and I know this is going to be crazy, and I'm not saying he's better than LeBron, but I'm picking Kevin Durant over LeBron. I'm just picking him. I think he's the, I mean, next to Jordan, when a guy, and more than Jordan, the way he shoots a three. The way he shoots, the fact that he shoots a three, the way he shoots it at his size, and the mid range game, he's a better shooter than Jordan. I don't know if he's quite a better scorer all the way around, but he might be. He's definitely just right there with him, and I think he's a really good defender to undervalued as a defender, but I'm still saying that him joining that team like diminished him a little bit in my eyes and then moving around. It's just, you lost the idea of a team. The Celtics are doing it. It feels like a team that's built from the ground up. Feels like a team that's sticking together. There's a true connection with the city. Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum together going through disappointments, uh, after disappointment early in their career because they were young players and had to learn and then finally breaking through and winning that feels more authentic to me. And again, that just might be my generation. Fine. Then I'm going to start chopping F bombs or, you know, I'm just an old guy, I guess, but that I love that stuff because it, it aligns with my values of team. Of working through adversity working through tough times figuring it out and that's marketable, too And I do think there was a risk of not being marketable what lebron did and again They do benefit from social media. They do benefit from a younger generation who's into that and okay with it But they might have lost some of the nba Traditional fans early on with jumping teams. Sure. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. But again you're only a product of what's in front of you and Lebron being as smart as he was coming up through the early early 2000s knowing when the cbas were up um and knowing when he could capitalize on on his finances, but but not just his finances the finances of the whole entire league and again, this has nothing to do with with the finals obviously, but You He he was a major major part in that um in in boosting up that for not only the players of his Generation, but the future ones the ones that are just coming into the league and becoming stars now, whether it's sga You know trey young. Um, you know all these guys anthony edwards that are that are coming into the league now That's that's something that um, I love anthony edwards the same. I love it. I love it Oh, by the way, I just you know, just I don't want to cut you off. I know we're getting towards the end I'll just say one more time, but I also know that lebron Understands legacy. He is smart. Cleveland was a harder situation. Miami was an easier one. And that is part of LeBron's legacy. He is finding the easier path to championships. You cannot argue that he finds the easier path to championships. And even last year. So last year, they lost the Denver last two years. Also, Denver. You'll get just too good. Like, you know, you got Anthony Davis and you're LeBron. Go win the series Go win the series. I'm like, that's that's how I feel on that but Again, I still love watching LeBron play. I love the way he facilitates. I love his intelligence I do think he makes guys better around him I think that he is absolutely one of the top five players of all time Probably number two because longevity does matter The fact that he's the all time leading scorer that he is top five in all these categories and the fact that he's still playing at this level at his age in his career and still a top 10 NBA player in a more athletic NBA, which I agree with is unbelievable. And I do love watching him play. So there's, it's coming across because we're debating. This is my Michael Jordan fan coming out. But, uh, yeah, all these guys are amazing today. Guys like Anthony Edwards and Steph Curry is probably the greatest shooter of all time without a doubt. You know, so we're going to do more player comparisons. Maybe I'll get on the side of a modern day guy. This was great, man. This was great. You know, and I'm, I'm built similar to you where I, I, I'm going to dig my, you know, I'm going to dig my feet in and try to be, With this with a team or with the program and try to win with that program and obviously LeBron made the calculated jump to to Miami and I think it was ultimately to get the monkey off his back. Like, listen, I need to win a championship and I need to win it now because if I don't win one now, then I'm never catching Jordan. I think is what the decision that he made was and joining Miami and having Dwayne Wade down there and ultimately bringing Chris Bosh and Ray Allen was was part of that. Um, that plan to win a championship as soon as possible. And I think going back to Cleveland and him winning the one with Cleveland against the Warriors being down three to one the way he did it, the team that they had the 73 wins. Um, you know, I think that ultimately vaulted him up into the equal category with. Michael Jordan. Uh, and that's that's just something that I personally believe. But then going to L. A. And obviously winning the bubble in L. A. Winning the championship in the bubble in L. A. Um, was kind of cherry, cherry on top for LeBron. And I think at this point we're at, we're at a point where we're just happy to keep seeing him play. Um, you know, if you were to knock another one off, I know they have a good team this year and a couple of good, a couple of good young players that can make a difference if they go win one this year. And. You know, he gets to five. He gets to six. Eventually, if he plays a couple more years, I don't think he does, but maybe one or two more years, he knocks one off and gets five. Hey, you know, that would be, that would just be, again, more cherry on top for LeBron, but it's been, uh, it's been special really watching this guy play. And I love Michael Jordan. We talked about this before we even started it. I love MJ again. I'm, I'm built from the same cloth that MJ is where I'm going to, if I get drafted by a team, I want to win as many championships with that obviously, if I, if I like it and it's a good coach and all that stuff. Um, we're not even talking about all the bullshit that Michael Jordan dealt with in the back with Jerry Krause, the owner. And obviously that's in the documentary. Um, Which is interesting in itself, but you know, he Jordan needs to lay off the cigars, dude. Oh, man. He's John is high He's really oh my god his eyes But he doesn't care no, he's playing golf all the time. He's doing whatever he wants great golfer, too He's doing whatever he wants. But listen Michael Jordan is is unbelievable definitely passes the eye test as the greatest player of all time you know just a another fun debate for us and and if anybody has any any You Uh, examples or if they want to comment, you know, please leave us a comment or if they want to see other player comparisons, whether it's current players, former players, players of different generations, you want to hear us debate of who, uh, who is better in different player comparisons. Definitely let us know, um, send us messages, but, but definitely look forward to that. Uh, to see what people have to say about who we, who they want to hear from us. But, um, good first one, really good stuff. I love that. We got to do this. It's hard because we're really picking the top two players of all time. And it really just nitpicking like some, some certain stats, but nobody really knows what happens in. Inside, you know, each of their brains and what they're built after. So, you know what they're built from. So, but this was great coach. I, I loved it. I'm looking forward to seeing what the, uh, what the people have for us. Once again, uh, this is locked in your source for everything basketball. My name is Nick DeFeo. We've got the coach Jason Shea. Thanks for listening. Subscribe and follow. Thank you.