Do You Know What I Mean?

Dr. Arlene MacDougall shares her profound experience with dreams, healing, and the transforming power of the sweat lodge. She reflects on a terrifying dream from her youth that became a symbol of her journey through pain and hardship. In her work as a psychiatrist, she highlights the importance of mindfulness in learning to sit with suffering and how connecting to something greater than herself led to deep connection with a client through their shared dream.

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Transcript

Prelude

Arlene MacDougall (00:00)

She began to talk about how she has a recurring vision of this very dark cloud with a little shining light in the center that grows. And as she was saying this to me, I was of course imagining my own dream. And she looks at me and says, do you know what I mean? And I said, yes, I do know what you mean.

Show Introduction

Nate Houchens (00:47)

Hi and welcome to Boundless Moments, the storytelling podcast that brings sacred moments to life through the voices of those who lived them. I'm Nathan Houchens. Support for Boundless Moments comes from the Sacred Moments Initiative. 

At Boundless Moments, we are careful to ensure that all stories comply with healthcare privacy laws. Details may have been changed to ensure patient confidentiality.

All views expressed are those of the person speaking and not their employer.

Some stories featured on Boundless Moments may contain themes or content that could be upsetting for some listeners. We encourage you to use discretion and take care of yourself while listening.

Introduction: Arlene MacDougall

Nate Houchens (01:32)

This episode features Dr. Arlene MacDougall, a psychiatrist and the Director of Research and Innovation for Mental Health Care at St. Joseph's Health Care London in London, Ontario. She is an Associate Professor and Director of Research for the Department of Psychiatry at the Schulich School of Medicine and Dentistry, Western University. She leads trans-disciplinary and cross-sectoral innovation initiatives tackling complex mental health and addiction system challenges, both locally and globally. This includes MINDS (Mental Health INcubator for Disruptive Solutions) of London-Middlesex, Ontario – Canada's first social innovation lab addressing community mental health challenges starting with the mental health of youth and emerging adults; and the CREATE Kenya model of recovery from serious mental illness in low resource settings, which integrated social enterprise employment, psychosocial rehabilitation, and peer support. Dr. MacDougall also conducts mental health services research on access to emergency psychiatric care, the collaborative care model, and early psychosis intervention. Clinically, she is a consultant psychiatrist to the Southwestern Ontario Aboriginal Health Access Center (SOAHAC) and the Thames Valley Family Health Team. Dr. MacDougall is also the founder and CEO of the Global MINDS Collective, a registered Canadian charity dedicated to building capacity in mindfulness, social-emotional learning, and mindful social innovation – empowering individuals, organizations, and communities to foster resilience, wellbeing, and systemic change. She has been recognized as a global young physician leader by the International Inter-Academy Partnership. 

Introduction: “Do You Know What I Mean?”

Nate Houchens (03:10)

In our conversation, Dr. MacDougall shares her profound experience with dreams, healing, and the transforming power of the sweat lodge. She reflects on a terrifying dream from her youth that became a symbol of her journey through pain and hardship. In her work as a psychiatrist, she highlights the importance of mindfulness in learning to sit with suffering and how connecting to something greater than herself led to deep connection with a client through their shared dream.

The Story: “Do You Know What I Mean?”

Arlene MacDougall (04:04)

My story took place about six years ago now. It was the summer of 2019, and I had been asked to take part in a sweat lodge. And I had experienced a sweat lodge before and it was incredible in terms of my own ability to connect to myself, to others, and to something greater. And I knew I wanted to do it again and I really saw it as an opportunity for my own sort of healing and growth like my previous experiences in a sweat lodge.

But this one was very different and very unique in the sense that the sweat lodge keeper had invited another member of the sweat lodge to do one of the rounds. So there was four rounds of reflection and sharing and healing. And this round was focused on dreams. So the person facilitating this round had shared a very powerful dream that had happened to him. And that had essentially transformed his life in very concrete ways in terms of the teaching and the guidance that he had received from a dream. And so after sharing the details of his dream, he asked the other members of the sweat lodge to reflect on a dream that they have had and what it means to them and to their life going forward in terms of direction. 

So here I am, I'm 39 years old, and I'm brought back right away to a dream that I had when I was 20 years old. And I was a university student living in Toronto doing my studies in human biology and bioethics and, you know, applying to medical school. And I was living with a roommate at the time in a basement apartment. And I had never had such a scary, terrifying, beyond words in terms of what this dream was like for me. And it sat with me for many years. 

And what happened in the dream was I felt and saw this very dark, like black, fuzzy entity, almost cloud-like, moving towards me. But what it entailed or what it reflected was this very cold, evil, unknown, again, dark sort of force, like energy that I had never knew existed. I had never experienced or saw anything like it. It was completely foreign to me, and it was moving or coming towards me. And it was so terrifying that I actually woke up, woke up in terms of like standing up out of bed, screaming on the top of my lungs. And I have never had, you know, anything like this before in my life in terms of a night terror. Sure, I've had sort of, you know, nightmares kind of once in a while, but nothing, nothing like this. And I woke up my roommate, I woke up the landlord, you know, above us, and I was screaming and just total terror, total fright. It just felt completely different than any other sort of dream or visual or, you know, physical experience I'd ever had.

And I didn't know what to do with it. You know, obviously I calmed myself down enough to be able to sort of go back to sleep and, you know, get back to kind of my day-to-day life. But that dream sat with me and would come to me every once in a while in my life. And I just reflected on it, not really understanding why, why did I have that dream? What was the meaning of that? 

And so as I brought that vision and, you know, the feeling, the physical feeling and the emotion that I had during that dream back up in that sweat lodge, I just sat with it. I didn't actually share. We did have the opportunity to say out loud, you know, to the other people in the sweat lodge what dream or what learning we had, but I didn't. I just sat with it myself. And I didn't experience fear. I just was observing it. I was just sitting with it, almost like holding it, like you would hold, you know, a baby or a child with compassion, I just wanted to hold it, I just wanted to understand it. And as I was doing that, I re-visualized this dark, cold entity. I began to see this very small, fuzzy light in the center of it begin to grow. And so I just allowed that to unfold in my mind as I sat in the sweat lodge. Being in a place of presence, not trying to sort of label or categorize or analyze it, just allowing it to be. 

And so that was on the Saturday night and the sweat lodge, you know, the entire ceremony is, it takes several hours and when you're finished and you you're physically and emotionally exhausted because it's a very intense experience in many ways. And we were guided by the sweat lodge keeper, you know, to reflect on the learnings and the experiences over the next few days and to know that you may feel somewhat vulnerable or fragile based on the experience of the sweat lodge, but just to be kind and just to sit with yourself and what emanated in terms of insights or healing or growth. 

So I did that. And over the next day or so, I began to realize that what this dream meant to me was that, unknowing to me at 20, you know, and still pretty naive in terms of life experience, I had not really been faced yet with significant challenge, with significant loss, betrayal, suffering, disappointment. You know, some of these really big events that occur in pretty much every human life at some point or another, but that cause deep pain, but also deep confusion and deep fear. And I had not really experienced that yet at 20. But then at 39, you know, through my career and through my personal life, I had. And I realized that that dark entity was something that I couldn't run away from. I couldn't pretend it wasn't gonna happen. It did show up in my life. It was pain, it was suffering, it was confusion, it was deceit, it was being let down. I also learned though that from those very difficult experiences that I was able to grow deep strength, wisdom, authenticity, kindness, and love for myself as well as more so for others, and that through that darkness and those dark experiences, light was able to develop and grow and balance the darkness and respond to it and counter it. 

So on that Monday, so two days following the sweat lodge, I was working as a psychiatrist at a service, at a clinic, that supports Indigenous peoples. And I'd been doing consulting psychiatry there. So most of my work is really meeting people once and doing an assessment and providing diagnosis and recommendations to themselves and to their primary care providers. And that Monday afternoon, after the sweat lodge, I was meeting with a middle-aged woman who had chronic depression and anxiety and a lot of trauma, including intergenerational trauma, but a lot of trauma that had not been fully addressed or fully processed and treated. 

As I was doing my assessment though, it became clear she was disclosing to me that she was actively suicidal. And so I was very quickly adjusting as a clinician from being in an assessment mode to being in an intervention mode and having to develop some very practical, concrete interventions and strategies to shift from acute suicidality and reduce risk. 

So we began to talk, we began to switch from, you know, exploring her symptoms and exploring her, you know, the impact on her life to really exploring who she is, and what matters to her, and what meaning, meaning life has for her, and what her purpose is, despite all of the challenges, mental health and otherwise, that she was experiencing. She began to talk about how she has a recurring vision of this very dark cloud with a little shining light in the center that grows. And as she was saying this to me, I was of course imagining my own dream. And she looks at me and says, do you know what I mean? And I said, yes, I do know what you mean. What does it mean to you? And she began to share that she has a belief that she was put on this planet for a reason and that she was more than just, you know, the trauma or what has been done to her, and that she has hope that she will get better and that there's something, she doesn't know what it is, but there's something good that will come from her pain and from her life. 

And I just nodded my head and allowed her to just continuously sort of express what that meant to her. And she shifted from being acutely suicidal to wanting to look at ways to make that happen for her. How to really move her story from that of being depressed and anxious and one of trauma to one of strength, one of hope, one of resilience and making something out of this.

So as we finished the assessment, she was very clear that she wasn't actively suicidal anymore and that she wanted to work with me and with her primary care team into a place of healing and a place of growth. And so we parted ways. I did not see her in follow-up. I did hear from her primary care team that she was stable and making, you know, improvements with different ways of intervening. You know, that interaction just for me was so special in the sense that I knew exactly what she meant and I didn't have to tell her, I didn't have to tell her what my understanding was, but she knew and I knew that we knew exactly what each other meant. And it was like we were no longer, you know, psychiatrist and patient for that, that moment. It was just connecting at this very profound level and it was a connection, obviously, that was mutually very meaningful and beneficial.

Interview

Nate Houchens (16:17)

Dr. Arlene McDougall, thank you so much for sharing that incredible story of hope as a light in the center of that dark cloud and the shared genuine connection through dreams you had with your client. What a privilege it was to hear that story.

Arlene MacDougall (16:34)

Thank you.

Nate Houchens (16:36)

Let's go to the sweat lodge then. Can you paint a picture for us of where you were, what the atmosphere was like, what it smelled like, what it felt like, what you were thinking about and feeling in those moments?

Arlene MacDougall (16:50)

So maybe what I'll do is describe for you from my own experience what a sweat lodge feels like. You're sitting in a lodge that's built by tree branches and covered with blankets and tarps. So it's completely black. It's pitch black. The floor is cedar, fresh cedar. So you can smell the cedar. The rocks that are heated in the spirit fire outside of the sweat lodge that are the ancestors, the grandmothers, the grandfathers are brought in over the four rounds. And the sweat lodge keeper uses water, for example, on the rocks to create sort of the heat and the steam. 

So you're with many people. I mean, it depends on who shows up. And so it could be young, old, men, women, know, a range. But you're not there to speak to them. You're there for yourself and to connect with the knowledge and wisdom and healing of the ancestors. So although you hear other people speak, including the knowledge keeper, the sweat lodge keeper, they're facilitators of the space, but it's not like a typical sort of dialogue or conversation, or… you're really there as yourself to just heal and grow and develop insight. 

And it's very intense. So it's physically intense. So you're hot, you're not drinking any water, you’re feeling the need maybe to move closer to the ground, you know, like it's physically demanding, it's physically intense. And then kind of that mental, emotional, you're very open with the preparation, you know, prior to the sweat lodge and moving into the sweat lodge and the facilitation by the keeper. You are at a place of openness to do your work, whatever that is, whatever you've brought to the lodge to work on or to understand better. You just have to be totally honest, you know, no one else is going to do it for you. You know, there's no test at the end. This is for you to do the work you need to do. And you have to be completely honest with yourself about that. So that kind of paints the picture and there's, it's really, you know, coming into sort of your true essence, doing that learning, doing that growing. And then you move out of that lodge to sort of your full sort of adult, you know self, back into the world. But you take those learnings and that healing with you going forward.

Nate Houchens (19:14)

Having never experienced a sweat lodge before, I have to imagine that the Indigenous knowledge keepers and facilitators have created this environment for healing and immense personal growth and reflection to occur. And it sounds like, you know, the closest that I think I have ever come to is I took a 12 mile hike through this this crater in Maui. And I decided very early on in the trek that I was not going to listen to any music or podcasts. I was not going to distract myself in any particular way. And this was a singular journey. I was on my own. In retrospect, maybe not the best idea, but regardless, it was a very spiritual experience. And it was the absence of every other sense, or rather the attuning into certain senses, that for me felt so unlocking.

Arlene MacDougall (20:17)

Yes, and you know, there's a lot of various forms of meaning to all the different aspects to the ceremony prior and in the lodge and after. And it's, I mean, I can speak just from myself, but it's been because I've done sweat lodges since then as well. It's just been such a critical part of my own healing and growth, you know, over the last several years to have that opportunity. Yeah, so it was just it's been it's been a great, great privilege to be able to experience it. And to encourage others if they've ever had the opportunity to be invited to do it.

Nate Houchens (20:53)

I can imagine there's immense value for those that are open and willing to be vulnerable in those ways that you describe. You mentioned somewhat early on that the sweat lodge is a place where you can connect to something greater. I wonder if I can challenge you a little bit and ask what that something greater is for you.

Arlene MacDougall (21:14)

So, I mean, different words are used to describe it, but, you know, keeping more with some of the Indigenous teachings and as part of the sweat lodge, it would be to creator, to your ancestors, to the spirit world. So for me, it's, you know, it's really that collective consciousness, that energy of total consciousness to connect to that, you know, as a human, in our human bodies, in our human minds, but to have that opportunity to

experience ourselves just totally present and from a place of deep awareness and deep, deep consciousness and intention.

Nate Houchens (21:50)

I've got this mental image of sort of the notes that are sort of, what's it called? Oscilloscope? Yeah, sort of like the waves of music as they start to sort of come into harmony and how they start to overlap. And I can imagine that the energies in a place like that, in a moment like that, probably have harmonies in similar ways.

Arlene MacDougall (22:16)

Absolutely, and there is song, you know, and there is music as part of at least the experiences I've had in the sweat, which is also, you know, incredibly beautiful and emotive and again with more meaning and teachings as part of those songs.

Nate Houchens (22:56)

I want to take us for a moment back to the really terrifying dream that you described so vividly. As you reflect back on that dream even now, did you ever talk about it with anyone else like you're doing now at that point other than sort of your roommate?

Arlene MacDougall (23:14)

Not into any great depth. I had brought it up. You know, I can't remember specifics, but at least a couple of times in my life as one of these things that I experienced, I can't really make sense of, you know, it sort of sits with me, you know, and you may hear from somebody else about their nightmares or night terrors or whatever. But no, you know, I had never really gone into sort of a deeper analysis or dialogue about it. It just was something that was there. You know, it was there and I didn't quite know what to do with it. And I couldn't set it down, obviously. Couldn't just let it go, but didn't know what quite to make of it.

Nate Houchens (23:54)

And now in retrospect, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I wonder if it felt sort of like a premonition of future events.

Arlene MacDougall (24:01)

Totally, 100%. That's how I realized it was. I didn't know it at the time, of course, but I knew it was symbolic or important or signaling. It was something. I just didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know what to make of it. It was so completely different than anything I had ever heard about, read about, thought about, visualized.

Nate Houchens (24:28)

I can imagine that may even feel like a metaphor for not having experienced the kind of pain and confusion and suffering that you described later on in life.

Arlene MacDougall (24:42)

Hmm, yeah, no, I think that's that's very much the case. I, you know, maybe in a cognitive way, or I knew that pain and suffering existed in the world, obviously. And I was drawn to medicine and then later psychiatry, because I wanted to help people, you know, live out their best life despite disease or illness or functional impairment. So it wasn't like I wasn't aware of it in that sense. But it wasn't something that I had deeply lived or known to be.

Nate Houchens (25:16)

I'm just impressed. I think at the age of 20, I probably wouldn't even, I wouldn't have even been able to recognize, you know, a symbolic image from a dream. I think I just would have chalked it up to, I don't know, some bad pizza the night before or something.

You mentioned in the sweat lodge when you were recalling this terrifying dream that you allowed it to be, you were sort of present, you were in many ways vulnerable, like you described, you sat with it. And for many people, I can imagine that this distress, this discomfort is something that most of us mere mortals would not want to sit with and be present for. I'm wondering if you had any particular training or experiences in either mindfulness or whatever you personally call it to be able to harness those skills of being present with something that is challenging.

Arlene MacDougall (26:15)

During my psychiatry training, I began to get interested in mindfulness and its application to myself, but also to patients in terms of those experiencing, for example, depression, because that's where the research initially started with. So I started to attend workshops, started to do some reading, some guided meditations, and eventually got trained in a mindfulness-based intervention as a facilitator. And to be honest, I really started in a very kind of pragmatic way, like, this is going to be helpful for stress reduction. This is going to be helpful to sleep better. This is going to be helpful as a tool or intervention I can provide to patients and research and evaluate its outcomes. What I didn't realize when I started my own mindfulness learning and practice journey was just how transformational it was going to be for me as a human. 

You know, this, like you said, is an example. So I learned how to really be deeply present with what is and not judge it and just observe it and to come at it with curiosity, to come at it with compassion, and that it could be really anything. It could be an internal, you know, thought or feeling or physical sensation of my own. It could be something happening outside of me externally, someone saying something or doing something or an event, you know, from that place of spaciousness, that non-judgment, just sitting with and being aware of, you can then start to respond to things in a way that is deeply intentional. So for me, as I went further and further into my mindfulness practice, for me, it really became about love, like and being a loving person towards self, towards others, and how to embody that. 

So certainly, yeah, I don't think I was able to do that at 20 for sure. But at 39, you know, I was able to sit with pain and sit with darkness and sit with confusion and really just sit with it. And that's one of the things I learned. It was, know, you can sit with suffering. Is it comfortable? No, by definition, it's not comfortable. Do you want to? Probably not. And that's why we spend so much time, you know, running from it and, you know, distracting ourselves and doing everything not to, you know, sit with suffering. Because it's deeply uncomfortable. And it's fear inducing. You know, for many people, it's like, will it engulf me? Will I come out of it? You know, if I sit with it. 

And so I think, you know, with practice and with teaching and guidance and all of that. You know, I learned that actually you can sit with it. And in fact, that's the way through it. That's the way to actually be able to get to a place where you can set it down because you've realized what it meant, how you're going to heal and grow and be truer or deeper, however you want to put that, higher version of yourself because of the suffering.

Nate Houchens (29:39)

It reminds me of Jon Kabat-Zinn's mindfulness-based stress reduction program, and Full Catastrophe Living, I think is the name of the book, and how so many people start the journey of mindfulness for very tangible reasons. I don't like my chronic low back pain. I'd like to be able to live with it a little bit more easily. I don't like my anxiety. It's affecting the ways that I'm able to function in my day-to-day life. And yet, I hope for so many, they have journeys like the one for yourself, where it is just this evolution to something grander. And I don't mean to minimize the really important effects of improvements in low back pain. And anxiety. And I want to acknowledge that there are other components that are perhaps complimentary to that. 

You know, your talk about acceptance and needing to be present with and sit with and accept suffering is something that I hear about from the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu in the Book of Joy about how they not only think that that is incredibly important to be resilient and to be joyful, but that adversity is a prerequisite of sorts, that those who have faced adversity often have joy in ways that others don't have that sort dark cloud experience.

Arlene MacDougall (31:12)

Yeah, and I think that was one of the things I realized from my experience, but then that vision was that it's both, you know, like that life is both the darkness and the light. And I know I'm not saying anything new here. This has been talked about in many traditions and many cultures for centuries, but essentially that there really is this, you know, co-presence. And it's what we feed and it's what we attune to and what we embody and what we grow and share. And, you know, we only have so much energy and time and, you know, so what are we going to attend to? What are we going to be present with, you know, within our own world, our own internal world, but also what we put out, you know, externally to others and the world around us.

Nate Houchens (32:01)

All of the great heroes' journeys, all of the stories of lightness and darkness, they in many ways simplify the complexities of trauma and healing and growth, and yet I think can be such a powerful symbol.

Nate Houchens (32:40)

In the sweat lodge, then, you noticed the light at the center of the dark cloud. How did that awareness and visualization change the way you saw the world afterward, even before two days later with your client?

Arlene MacDougall (32:57)

Well, I think for me it was like there was nothing to really fear. Yes, there was pain. Yes, there was sorrow. There was despair, but it was meant to be, and I had to move through it and I had to, this was my life journey. And through that, I developed authenticity, and I developed wisdom, and I developed strength. And it was like, it was beautiful. And I was like grateful, you know, when you to a point of healing, when you're like, I'm grateful for what I went through. Would I wanna go through it again? Probably not. Would I have ever really wanted to go through? No. Do I want anyone else to go through? No. But you get to a point where you're like actually grateful that you went through it because it brought you to where you are now. I think that's what that was for me. It was just like, oh my gosh. There was nothing ever to really fear. And this was my life journey. 

And now, yes, I did all this training. Yes, you know, I have all this knowledge, this expertise through, you know, my credentials and various degrees and all this. But it's like my life experience has been almost, you know, just as powerful in terms of how I can be present as a psychiatrist and not burn out and be deeply present and aware of my patients’, my clients’, you know, suffering, how I can hold that space for them and with them and have hope for them but not in some canned way. Like this is how you communicate 101 to somebody who's sharing their story of trauma or pain. No, it's very genuine. 

And I've had patients over the years, for most of my patients, it's usually one consult. So I've had to kind of come to that point, okay, I've got this hour and a half with somebody. How am I going to help them in the most impactful way? How am I gonna create a space for them? Where they feel deeply seen and heard and validated and allowed to be vulnerable so that they can begin to develop that healing and that growth. And so whether they come with depression or they come with psychosis or come with, you know, doesn't matter what the diagnosis is or, you know, it's how do I create that space so that I can do the work in such a short time and have that positive presence and that positive impact in their life.

And so going back to that clinical lens, I really do really focus on allowing people to tell their stories. And then of course, I pepper in or I layer in, you know, questions for kind of that diagnostic clarity. And but I really try to take that narrative approach. And then I really spend time explaining to people why they've had those experiences or symptoms or, you know, these challenges in a holistic way, you know. That biological, psychological, social, but also spiritual if that's relevant. And then going through again, you know, that plan, you know, across those domains with them in terms of what they can do moving forward. 

And, you know, I've been told that people, you know, by my patients, you know, this is the first time I've ever told my whole story or that trauma or that particular traumatic event to anyone. And these might be people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. And I've had recently somebody in their 90s, you know, say that to me, something they've been holding for decades. We have to be aware that, you know, even a brief interaction, hour and a half, you know, when you think about it in someone's entire life, it can be very impactful if we're deeply present with people and create that condition, that space for them.

Nate Houchens (36:45)

It's a testament to your abilities to ensure that your clients feel heard and feel like they can share their narrative without interruption and without judgment. I was wondering about that. If you only have a single session, how do you create a space of shared vulnerability and openness that allows a client to feel comfortable disclosing these items and then certainly moving from trauma into meaning making.

Arlene MacDougall (37:18)

Yep, exactly. And I think it goes back to again, that that kind of mindful listening or that deep listening, you know, coming at it with openness, right? Non judgment, with compassion. And, you know, we say these words, but then we have to figure out how do we actually embody that in a very tangible way? So what does it mean for me to create a loving kind space or a compassionate space in my role as a physician or in my role… could be any role that we play. We have many hats that we play throughout or roles that we play throughout our life, right? Like as a parent, know, as a spouse, as a friend, as a stranger, as a boss, as a researcher, whatever. And so it's like, how do we do that? 

And then how do we do that to ourselves too? Because we always have our own internal dialogue and we have our own physical body, you know, that we're responding to. And so again, you have to have those strategies. Okay, you know, if you start finding yourself talking negatively to yourself. Is that really loving? To be constantly criticizing yourself or putting yourself down? Well, no. And the only person that's gonna stop that is you. There's no one else that's gonna get into your mind and say, stop that. There's no police or monitor, it's you. So you have to kind of commit to that and say, if I'm gonna be a loving person, that also means how I approach and I'm oriented to myself. 

So, but there's... That for me is what I've been figuring out over the last several years is like, what are those tangible things that we can do in our very busy lives with various demands and all these different stimulating events and, our society is created at this point to draw our attention, to get our money, to get a reaction. And so it's like, wow, this is very different from going to a particular retreat or monastery and meditating for many hours in the day. That's not part of my life. My life is very busy, you know, with many people dependent on me, for example, or looking to me for care and support. How do I show up in a mindful, present way? Right? So that's something that, you know, is an ongoing thing for me. It's not like my toolkit that I have now is going to be the one I have in a year. It will set some things down, bring some new things in.

Nate Houchens (39:37)

It's really worth thinking about, in my opinion, just because, yes, that resonates deeply. I feel like sometimes I have to shield myself against all of the various aspects of modern society and its draw away from being mindful and being loving and kind. It's just a frank reminder of how we can do that every day and show up for ourselves every day, despite all of the distractions.

Arlene MacDougall (40:04)

Exactly. And like for many of my patients, when I do a bit of kind of like, I guess, psycho-education around mindfulness-based interventions to how it might be helpful for their depressive symptoms or anxiety or trauma. As I talk to them, one of the things I do explore is like even creating that space for yourself to have that conversation, to have that reflection of like, what is meaningful to me? What do I want my life to be about? What impact do I want to have? You know, some of these really fundamental questions. A lot of people don't have the time or don't make the time or are not supported to do it. And it's like, it's so critical that we, you know, check in with ourselves and say like, you know, what do I want my life to be about, you know, and it may be for some people, it could be peace or it could be truth or it could be justice. Like, you know, it's all these various, you know, different values or ideals. But when do we even have the time, you know, or make the time to say, Hey, you know, actually, I want my life to be about kindness. And okay, what does that mean for me right now? You know, and how would I enact that, embody that? So even creating that space is difficult for many.

Nate Houchens (41:09)

For most people now, it has to be specifically carved out. It has to be intentionally protected.

Arlene MacDougall (41:15)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nate Houchens (41:48)

I wanna take a moment just to bring us back to that remarkable shared experience between you and your client. Just two days after you experienced this reconnection with a dream from almost 20 years ago, you connected with a client who then shared the same vision. I'm curious how that landed when you first heard that.

Arlene MacDougall (42:09)

Oh it was almost, you know, like, is this really happening? Like, you know, like your, your, your sort of narrative voice is like, what? And so you're like, you're in the moment. And then you're also sort of like out of the moment going, my gosh, like, is she really saying this right now? Like, it was just so incredible, so unexpected too. And then, you know, for her to ask me, do you know what I mean? It was already like, she knew I knew what she meant, I meant.

Nate Houchens (42:39)

I wondered about that.

Arlene MacDougall (42:40)

Yeah, like it almost seems like, because again, you that's not really something that you would normally ask. Like, “do you know what I mean?”

Nate Houchens (42:48)

Those sound like very intentional words that she asked you. I had the same reaction.

Arlene MacDougall (42:53)

Yeah. And then, of course, very genuinely, I could say, yes, I know what you mean. But it almost felt like she already knew I knew. And that's why she shared it, because she knew I understood. And she knew this was what was going to guide us out of this discussion about her pain and her suicidality in response to that pain.

Nate Houchens (43:18)

And it was an opportunity for that genuine connection through a truly shared vision. 

Had anything ever happened like that before, where it sort of felt beyond coincidence or beyond chance?

Arlene MacDougall (43:32)

Oh yeah, for sure. Not until I was open to it. I'm not saying it wasn't happening. It just wasn't oriented or able to receive it or see it. So again, I would say over the last few years as I developed my own practice of being deeply present and aware, and then, it's happened more and more.

Nate Houchens (43:51)

What do think those moments are inviting us to listen to or learn?

Arlene MacDougall (43:56)

You know, what deeply is. I always struggle trying to explain this because it never feels like words do it justice. I think that's one of our limits as humans is we have to put things into words often, not that we can't express ourselves in other ways, I get it. Just the total interconnectedness. You know, and I think, you know because of our senses, you know, we see things as being separate. We feel things as being separate. That's just because of our bandwidth in terms of what we can sense, what we can perceive.

But in fact, you know, things are highly connected and it's those moments that just go boom, see, you know, like there's just such an intense sort of deep connection that's always there and it's just whether we're open or able to see it, but it's there.

Nate Houchens (44:41)

If you could send one message back to your younger self about that dream and this experience, what would it be?

Arlene MacDougall (44:51)

Oh wow. Ooh, you're gonna make me cry.

I mean the words that come to me is like, you're gonna be okay.

That all of it, even the dark stuff, is capital G good. 

It is to be and you'll be okay, you'll be good.

Nate Houchens (45:19)

Well, Dr. MacDougall, I thank you so much for sharing your story, for being open and vulnerable with me and with anyone that listens to this. It is a really beautiful reminder that there is no substitute for love, for kindness, for acceptance, and for a shared lived experience when connecting with others. It is powerful, it is kind of you to share this, and I really appreciate it.

Arlene MacDougall (45:48)

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for this opportunity and for listening. Thank you.

Nate Houchens (45:52)

My pleasure.

Postlude

Nate Houchens (46:12)

We would love for you to be a part of this movement, and we would be honored to hear your story. If you have experienced a moment of grace, connection, or empathy that changed you, we invite you to submit it for consideration to be shared on Boundless Moments by sharing, you not only contribute to a collective celebration of human connection, you may also inspire others to recognize and cherish the sacred moments in their own lives. To discover more about sacred moments and to share your own story, please visit sacredmomentsinitiative.org.

This episode of boundless moments was produced, edited, and mixed by Nathan Houchens. Our program manager is Jessica Ameling, and our publishing and social media manager is Rachel Ehrlinger. Our podcast is made possible by the Sacred Moments Initiative, a humanistic project whose aim is to study, catalog, and share sacred moments. Learn more at sacredmomentsinitiative.org. Boundless Moments is also made possible by donations from listeners like you. Thank you so much for supporting our work in sharing sacred moment stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and drop us a rating or review to help others connect with us. I'm your host, Nathan Houchens. Thank you for joining and until next time, be well.