Initiations
A weekly podcast that keeps you up to date on the astrological forces at play. Each week we are diving into the mythology, archetypes and initiations present in astrology with your host, astrologer Jules Ferrari.
Initiations
MARIEKE MCKENNA: DREAM PHILOSOPHER & HISTORIAN, RENAISSANCE WOMAN
Marieke McKenna is a polymath and a stunning embodiment of artist and philosopher. This week I interview her through the lens of her beautiful natal chart, specifically looking at her work and research into dreams.
You can find and follow her here and this is the link to her fantastic course on dreams.
To book in for a chart reading and a deep experience into self-understanding through the lens of astrology, head here.
Hi, how are you today we are doing something a little different. I have an interview with Marika McKenna, who is an absolute legend and I would say an international Renaissance woman. She really deeply embodies these archetypes of the artist and the philosopher, and is doing such. Great work and research out in the world and, and just does so many different things as well, which I'm about to explain to you. But one of the things that really struck me when I came across her work was the, you know, if you have a lot of interests, I certainly do. When I grew up in the eighties. And nineties, there was still this sense that you did one thing, your job was your vocation. And I certainly wrestled, especially being a Gemini, with having so many different interests and chronologically have worked in lots of different fields and. Coming across Marika's work. It just, it was this beautiful, again, like not permission slip, but a signpost of how different the time the times are now that we can really move in multiple directions and there doesn't even need to be a hierarchy around our interests, you know, that we're able to. Apply our energy towards many different things. And I think Marika does that in a very stunning way. For example, she is of Scottish and Irish ascendancy lives in the Netherlands. And works as an artist. A curator, a consultant, and. Has her own radio program on Dutch Radio. National Two is a DJ, has her own record label, mink Records, and then works as a teacher at a range of different universities and Conservatoires. How I came across her was through her, deep Research in Dreams. She did a multi-year. Paper, a research project on the historical, the cross-cultural, the scientific and philosophical perspectives on dreaming, uh, which is just so cool and wild. And I've been diving into her six part course. On Ed Via, which I highly recommend. It's a great platform. This, this is not a sponsored thing. I just, I bought the yearly pass when I saw that her course was coming out on that platform, and it's brilliant. There's such a wide range of courses with very, very knowledgeable, uh, adept teachers. I think one of the things with the social media landscape is that. We, it, it, it's very easy to appear, masterful or, as an authority in a subject. And partly what I want to do in this series of interviews that, I will present here is to highlight people who are deeply embodied in their work and who are doing brilliantly interesting things. And yeah, I think Marika is a, a great place to start. For astrological reference, she is a li son, a Gemini moon, and a Scorpio ascendant. And when she presented a masterclass for astrology school a few weeks ago, I. She was talking about some of her placements and I was trying to map that in my mind. Uh, and yeah, I have a chart up here in this interview and I'm interviewing her through the lens of her astrology, but all of the links to her work are below. Be sure to check her out. She is, absolutely brilliant, and I hope you enjoy this.
Jules:Thanks so much for, being here. You're actually my first interview on the podcast and I'm just so excited that you said yes.
Marieke:oh, thank you so much, Jules. It really, I genuinely know people always say it like, oh, it's a pleasure, it's an honor, but it really is. Thank you. It really is.
Jules:I feel like I've been hanging out with you for the last couple of weeks as I dive into your dream course on. Mm-hmm. I am very lucky because Marika has said that I can pull up her chart as well, so I have this in front of me and. We are going to dip into the chart as well as me asking questions about Marico and her work. Your son is in Libra in the 10th house, and that just seems so resonant from the small amount that I know you. And know of you, which is the 10th house is who we are out in the world. It's our goals and responsibilities, it's our work., And anyone who has a 10th house son really shines out here, and it's so beautiful to have this in Libra because. I know that you have, I, I feel like you're just a polymath. I keep saying a Renaissance woman, but me. That's another way of saying a polymath. I know that you have this, record label, like you're so involved in the arts, as well as the more academic realms, which is so liberal because this is the air version of Venus and, Hmm. Here we take the love of beauty and aesthetics and the arts, and it becomes, it also becomes an intellectual experience as much as it is, um, like a tactile one. Have you always been in these two worlds of academia and the arts?
Marieke:Well, I would maybe, first of all, it's really interesting hearing you say all of this'cause it does, it really does resonate, uh, especially this sort of like air sign version of, of Venus. You know, like Yeah. I mean I would say I've always been interested in nature and arts. And so for me, the academic, I mean, academia is one lens, one space in which you can look at certain questions. And Fiona, honest, I, I don't have that, that much interest in academia per se. What I like about academia is the fact that there is access to libraries. There's these professors, there's these communities of people that you can talk to who are equally nerdy about a very specific thing as you are. Um, but for me, I would say like. I remember is like for instance, when I was very young, I used to always spend every summer in the Scottish Highlands with my father camping. And I was always very interested in the geology of that region because you can really see the stone structures in like, you can really see the different layers and, and when he was telling me about that, it's, oh, you can actually tell like the history of the earth from that. I was just like, I remember just being so mind blown by that and you know, the animals and stuff. So it was more. It was more this curiosity led thing, which then turned into an interest in the arts, uh, or science, uh, or philosophy. But I've never really categorized it within those disciplines so much because I'm always more interested in the question at hand, for instance. When it comes to minerals or geology, like, wow, how do minerals form? Which for me is also, it's, I mean, that's also an aesthetic question. Mm. It's not just a scientific question. Um, because the reason I'm interested in these minerals is because I find them beautiful. Um, so very often, you're right, very often these things, the motivation is aesthetic, but then the mode of questioning is, is maybe some, I don't know, even if it's intellectual, it's more, I would say it's really more curiosity led.
Jules:I love that. Do you play any instruments?
Marieke:So this is a funny one as well, because yeah, I've tried, I've tried like so many different instruments, like from a very young age, but, you know, I have this, this thing of, of the the like where you mentioned like, you know, polymath, renaissance woman, it has a downside. I have so many different interests that I find it very hard to stick to just one. Um, and in when it comes to musical instruments, that is truly a curse because you do actually need to put in a significant amount of hours to master a instrument. And, um, this I've never really been able to achieve, uh, in terms of. Yeah, for, I mean, for a number of years I've always sang quite a lot and I've always, um, been very interested in percussion instruments, played saxophone for a while, but I've, I've always, like, I've got so many people around me who have truly mastered their instruments, and when I look at them, I, I see they have a quality that I, I. Do not possess. Maybe one day I'll develop it, but it definitely doesn't come naturally to me. And, um, but then again, but then the, the amount of instruments that I have tried, like, I would say is quite unusual. So it's always this, I'm more of a, let's say more of a holist or like, yeah, I don't know. It's some, that is actually something that I'm quite upset about. Sometimes I would've liked to have really mastered something. I'd say like, yeah, you know, there's this expression, jack of all trades, but master of none. I try and, uh, it's something I think about quite a lot, like how to be a jack of all trades but not be a master of none. You know? It's, uh, yeah. It's a challenge.
Jules:So how did you get into the. Work that you are doing with dreams. And you know, I, I'm so interested in this for a number of reasons, but having your chart in front of me is really fascinating to know that you work in this realm because you have signatures of dreamworld and being, uh, I would say proficient in Dreamworld, which is an eighth house moon. The eighth house is the natural territory of Scorpio, and you have beautiful Gemini Moon here. So it's like there's this penetrating mind that wants to, or, or is experiencing things in at the absolute depths, but there's also this innate. Curiosity. The eighth house is everything that's taboo, essentially. It's sex, death, drugs, rock and roll. It's like all the fun stuff. Other people, and eighth house people as well as Scorpios and Marika is a, has so many planets here in Scorpio, has a Scorpio ascendant. It's a similar territory when I read for people who have. Strong eighth house, strong Scorpio. They always seem to have these very, very intense dreams,, where it's like, there's, there's bloodshed. There's orgies. It's always, and then the other thing. Is that, your mind is here in Scorpio and in the 12th house, which is this realm of the unconscious, the collective unconscious. The eighth and the 12th are both related to dream spaces. I'd say the eighth is more like our own personal. Hero's journey and psychological dramas. Whereas the 12th is collective, more ephemeral. It's, it's where there's this realm of the pre cognizance, clairvoyance, imaginary friends as well. Oh, I had
Marieke:many as a child. That's,
Jules:I was very, I was so curious to. To hear if you did because yeah. Mercury there or the moon there. It's a classic marker. And this is just my own, anecdotal, collation of asking so many people, but it seems to be a real theme. So was the, was the dream world always alive for you?
Marieke:That's so interesting, Jules, thank you for, uh, for touching upon these things. Um, it really is quite freaky to hear actually, because Yeah. Um, I mean, um, was the dream world always? I mean, I, I, it is, I find it a very hard question to answer because I don't, I don't feel them as being so different, the dream world and. Whatever the non dream world is like, the waking world, I guess. Um, or daily life or, I mean, I think I spend. When I look, when I'm in my natural state, when I'm not, you know, incredibly stressed or overworked or in a, in a very social setting, whatever, when I'm just in my own space, in my house or in my, well, I go to the forest and the beach, quite a lot of my dog. What, what happens in my head? I'd say for like 90% of the, that space, that inner mental space, I'm not thinking about everyday life. Things I'm not, I, so my friends are always joking that I'm, I'm never organized when it comes to groceries or like, you know, like I, I'm a bit of a need freak, thank God. So I keep my house tidy, but I find it sometimes really hard to plan really basic things, um, because I'm just not thinking about, it's not that I don't care. It's just, it's not on my mind. And then whereas I can, I can go and just think for two hours about something related to philosophy or esotericism or, or something like that, you know? So when you ask, has a dream world always been present for you? I think I. What, it depends on your definition of what the dream world is, but if we, if we define that as sort of like this, this liminal other space, um, that is less constrained by our daily waking life, I think I spend more time there. Um, and then I'm, I'm speaking about the dream world in a broader sense than just dreams in, in our rem sleep state, for instance. You know, like also daydreaming or ideation or creative imagination. And, and I, and I feel extremely, um, I don't feel psychologically or spiritually well if I don't have space to be there. So this is a big issue in my work. For instance, doing sometimes work in the arts. It sounds, it was, that always sounds very artsy, but it also involves quite a lot of production stuff. And so like for instance, a lot of emailing, a lot of calls, a lot of messaging, a lot of really just hands-on productional stuff. And sometimes when I'm in that space for too long, I find it very constraining and, and, uh, yeah, really it makes me feel unwell somehow. Mm.
Jules:That's really interesting. The 12th House, it's certainly so deeply related to Yeah. The imagination as well. And again,'cause your mind's there that's so strong and because your mind's there and'cause there's so many planets there. The 12th House and Pisces, you have Pisces in a very strong place. Your IC is there, your fourth house is there. The IC is, right down the bottom. It's the midnight point of the chart, and it's like these deep roots. It's who we are when nobody's around. So having the mind in the 12th house and then having your domestic environment, but your inner world, being in PIs, that, that it's so dreamy, it's so beautifully dreamy and can live in. The Imagine, I, I would say, I call it like the imaginarium, like in that visioning state. It's so alive and it requires alone time, to, I would say in like be in, be integrated within the self because you just have these classic markers of what I would refer to as like a psychic sponge. You know, it's like any, and since arrival because of the Pisces there, but it's like you can walk into any room and really. Pick up and feel the temperature, of the environment. The people there just so, so easily and naturally. And so often when people have these incredible, beautiful sensitivities, they certainly need a lot of alone time.
Marieke:Yeah, I feel that that, that nature being in nature for me is, is what gives me that, you know, and it's, um, it's a non-negotiable. I had to accept at one point because I live in the Netherlands and of course Amsterdam or capital City is where most of the things happen when it comes to the arts. So for my work, it, it makes most sense to be there. But I live in The Hague, which is a smaller city. By the beach, is where I partially grew up. It's, it's pretty, it's green. It's got forest and beach, and it's a very pleasant place. It's nice and there's stuff happening, you know, but, you know, whenever I'm in Amsterdam, people are always asking, why are, why are you based in the Hague? Like, what's the logic behind that? And it's this, you know, like I, I really, I. I, I love going into those social spaces and those art spaces, but I also really, I'm always joking, like the moment I get out of the train station in the Hague, I always just feel like, oh, I can breathe again. You know, with like the sea breeze and stuff. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I had to, I had to kind of come to terms with that, but that took me, it took me a while. It took me like four years of very unhappily living in Amsterdam. Funnily enough. Yeah. Interesting. Hmm. It's so interesting hearing you speak about all these things, Jules. And also the way that you dissect it is like really lucid.
Jules:Oh, thank you. That's funny you, you said that word because that's related to my next question. Um, Rika did a, a masterclass for astrology school and in that mentioned, her own lucid dreaming. Do you mind if I ask you about that?
Marieke:No. Sure. Go on.
Jules:I was so interested, because again, like there's this scorpion, strong scorpion element in your chart, which is Scorpio to me is very, very powerful. And when it's. In its most, let's say full expression, it's this ability to be the magician, to wield force in, let's say the magical realms, or these more esoteric, and energetic and ephemeral realms and. As somebody who doesn't lose a dream, uh, I, I have had one boyfriend who lucid, dreamed, and that was always so interesting to hear of his experiences. But how did you, did you, was that something that you had to, like graft and, and cultivate, or was it a gift that was. Here on arrival.
Marieke:So, so, um, interestingly enough, lucid dreaming is a learnable skill, right? And, it was actually part of my job. I was working at this neuroscience laboratory at the University of which in the South Netherlands, where they're doing FMRI and EEG research on what happens in the brain when someone lucid dreams. And one of the things we were working on there was how to most effectively induce lucid dreams from the simple perspective that if you run an experiment like that and someone doesn't get lucid, it's kind of like a waste of time of money because these experiments are very expensive to run. So it was like very. Kind of, yeah. There's a big, the people who are doing scientific research on lucid dreaming are also the people who are very interested in how can we in induce lucid dreams. And the, they've tested, like scientifically tested a number of approaches that anecdotally have worked throughout history for people. So for instance, there are, um, tradi their methods from Tibetan Buddhism, um, yoga Nira. Uh, not in the sort of westernized form that you usually find in your yoga school in, you know, for instance, Australia or the Netherlands, where we are, but in a slightly, you can find it online basically. Yoga for lucid dreaming. But then also there's some more sort of like western modern techniques. Like one is cold wake back to bed where you set your alarm at five or something in the morning and then you do something for like half an hour, like maybe fold your washing, don't look at your screen'cause that will ruin it. And then you go back to bed with the intention, you set the intention to have a lucid dream and basically combined these efforts actually have quite a high success rate. The first thing to do is to enhance your dream recall. So, um, before you start practicing lucid dreaming, it's good to try and really try and remember your dreams. Until you've got like one or two per night. Because otherwise what happens is people can have lucid dreams and then forget that they had them. So that's just a little side note. So then when it comes to my, my Lucid dreaming practice, eh, one more side note, sorry, is that children actually have a lot of lucid dreams. It's probably got something to do with the development of the prefrontal cortex. Um, but many, many, many children report. Lucidity and we usually just tend to consider that it's not the case, you know, like, so, um, for me personally, what happened, I'd had a couple of lucid dreams as a child, um, but wasn't, I had like maybe one or two spontaneously in my adult life. Um, but then I had a, a very severe bike accident a number of years ago, and I had to. Take eight months in recovery because I had a very bad concussion. And anyone who's had a very bad concussion knows what that means. Like brain damage is, is one of the strangest things one can experience. It's, um, yeah, it's, it's very hard to put into words, but basically I was spending a lot of time in bed and, um, what started happening was I started having, having these very vivid, lucid dreams. And at first, and I was listening to a lot of yoga Nira medicines of, um, recordings because it really helped me with the brain fog. And so yeah, I started having these lucid dreams and then I was kind of entertained because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't read, I couldn't listen to music, I couldn't do any of the things that I was normally doing. And so I had a couple of months in bed where I was just basically engaging quite intensely in this practice. And then it really became a part of my. My world. Um, and then I got, and then I got this job at this laboratory, which is crazy synchronicity, um, that they were even looking for someone to research something so specific, you know? Um, so. It was a really crazy journey into, into that field of that research, and it led me to some really amazing places. It led me to this, um, multi-year, um, research project. It was like an oral res, oral history research project where I was interviewing people who had worked in the space of lucid dream research. Not just lucid dreams, but dreams in general. So, yeah, I, I ended up graduating, uh, on a research project that was based on lucid dreaming. Both scientific and, and historical, philosophical. So that was my journey into it. But yeah, so it, it, it was, it was only a couple of years ago that I really became so engaged with it. And I have to say also it was a sort of silver lining of that situation because yeah, when do you have the time to really practice something so intensely? You know what I
Jules:mean? Mm-hmm. That's so fascinating and I think one of the things that blew my mind as well watching or, or working my way through your course on a via was your mentioning of the Dream temples in Egypt and ancient Greece. And it reminded me of this series of works that Marina Abramovich did. Uh. A long while ago now where she set up these dream spaces where they were participants could sleep on a bed of Rose courts. I think she got some different spaces, but to, to then record and monitor what their dream experience was. Um. Would you mind telling us a little bit about those dream temples?
Marieke:Sure. Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't know, uh, marina had done something around that. I'll, I'll definitely look that up. Thanks. I love her work. She's, she's amazing. Um, yeah, so. There were many of these, um, healing sites in various ancient traditions. You have Mesopotamia, you have Egypt, Rome, um, Greece. Um, there's some evidence of these type of spaces in the Celtic tradition, although not as. Temple like as in the other ones. Um, but yeah, they, I mean the set AMS is quite a well known concept. They were not just for dreaming and sleeping, they were usually just in general like healing sites. Like Princess Delphi is a, is a really well known one. And, um, many of these places, the ruins of of them, they still exist actually. So, for instance, when you go to Greece, you can, you can do tours around these places and, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's very interesting to actually visit them. Um, but one of the many healing rituals that they did in, in these spaces. Were was related to sleeping and specifically dreaming. And so depending on the exact, um, tradition you're speaking of, but there are quite a lot of parallels actually between the, uh, between Mesopotamia, Egypt and Rome and Greece. It seems that the Rome, Romans and, and, and the Greeks, that they took a lot of these, uh, ideas from the ancient Egyptians and from Babylon, et cetera. Um, so what they would do is there would be this sort of designated individual, like a priest, um, if you will, or like a healer doctor in their time that would've been your doctor. And there would also be these designated, um, spaces. Um, for instance, in the Greek tradition, it's called the abam, and that was specifically the sleeping space within the temple. And people would go there if they had a specific, um, ailment or question. So it could be physiological ailment, but it could also be like a psychological problem or maybe a spiritual problem. And they would go there and they would sleep in this space in order to try and incubate a dream. And incubate is an important word here because the idea is that by setting the intention to receive the information that will help you, um, gain insight, uh, in terms of what you should do, um, that you're actually evoking either, for instance, the divine help from the designated God or goddess, um, or. Yeah, I mean there's still this dream incubation is very, very interesting because it actually does, there's, there's been some scientific research, recent scientific research on this as well. Um, that shows that setting intention to sleep, uh, to dream about something before you go to sleep, it actually does help you. So it aids aids like nonlinear processing, uh, which can lead to new conclusions. So whether you're viewing this through a spiritual lens that believes in divine guidance or intervention or through a very sort of like western materialistic scientific lens, it's still the idea that you can get information from your dream still holds even in the second. What they used to do is they'd go to sleep and there are different practices, like sometimes they would have, um, a little icon of a deity, uh, that they would wrap in cloth or they would sleep on specific animal hides. Um, or they'd bring offerings and yeah, the idea is that in the morning they would wake up and then they would, they would share their dream with this, with this priest. Um. Healer and, um, figure out what what they should do. And sometimes, like I mentioned, sometimes it could really be in regards to what medicine to take. Um, and sometimes, you know, kings and queens throughout history have emperors have used this method to decide what to do in regards to warfare. Very similarly, of course, many kings and queens had astrologers at courts. Uh, as you know, Jules, so it's like this idea to get. It's interesting to me because what it points to is that now or in more recent history, these leaders, these um, leaders or the people who bring us into war, um, whether you call that a good leader or not. But anyway, that's another debate. These people are usually chosen or, or they take that space because they are considered to have that wisdom, whereas in many other contexts, the wisdom implied that you're a good listener. Whether it's to the cosmos in the case of astrology or whether it's to divine insights through dreams or visions or, or whatever. So there's a little bit less hubris in these examples, which is a detail that I like about it.
Jules:Hmm. That's so interesting. It also, as you're talking about that, it makes me think of John DI think he was Queen Victoria's, uh, as, but he was an occulus and he did
Marieke:Yeah.
Jules:Crying and Yeah. It was, it was so, uh,
Marieke:he was very important. He actually coined the term the British Empire.
Jules:Really?
Marieke:Yeah. It's funny that you mention him because I just, uh, I've been, I've been, he's come up a lot for me in the last two weeks. Mm-hmm. The sort of vision of, of England expanding, I say England specifically'cause it was not the vision of Scotland and Wales and Ireland. Yeah. Um, uh, is, um, that was the sort of his idea. Mm. And, and there's this sort of like sort of esoteric reading of the history in Britain, which someone told me once. And it kind of like the hypothesis is that John D used a cult magic to kind of. Set that whole thing in motion, which the results of which we're still seeing playing out today. So yeah, I used to be a really big fan of John D, but I'm not so sure if I like him now. That's fair.
Jules:I think. I think that's an interesting it. I think it's when people are in a position of power, it can. I don't know. It just feels like they can be altered or it can, consume them and just make Yeah, but
Marieke:what a combination. Queen Victoria, the first and John DI mean, that is, yeah.
Jules:Even, uh, in like the Vedic system, there's the, there was the Kings and then there were the Brahmans and the kids were always in consultation with the Brahmans. There was never this all consuming, uh. Because, I mean, look, these people are, most of these people are ridiculous and there's such a, there's, there appears to be, I'm sure a lot of them are working with astrologers and different, people, but there seems to be such a split between. The known world in this more sort of scientific, tangible, what do we know lens versus everything else that's, that's all existed. Uh, you
Marieke:know, I think though, one thing about that is like. For instance, Freemasonry. Mm-hmm. A lot of the doctrine of freemasonry, obviously it's supposed to be secret, et cetera, but they, they take a lot of, um, knowledge and insight from ancient religious and mystic spiritual traditions like Kabbalah, um, like Sufism, like these different things. And if you look at how many people in power are free masons, Hmm. That is like, you know, we tend to, we tend to think that these days, these worlds, these realms are separate, speaking around like the mystical, the spiritual, et cetera, and then like power and politics, et cetera. And, uh, you know, it, it sounds a bit conspiracy esque, but the Freemason thing is a fact. You know, I've spoken to some Freemason they're very interested in, in this type of, uh, ancient knowledge, inno or like western esoteric traditions. And so, um. I don't think it's so separate. I think it's still, there's still these connections here today.
Jules:I, I totally agree. I think it, it just seems strange. I. To, or what appears to me, and, and I am completely hypothesizing here, is, uh, it's more underground or it's not something that's verbalized. Like there's not a prominent John d that's walking beside, I don't know, whoever the person is. You know, it's like there's certainly in,'cause the timing of things is so wildly specific. Um.
Marieke:Oh my God. I just had this, sorry, I just had this vision of Elon Musk as John D and I was like,
Jules:no. Oh, what a plot twist. That's so funny.
Marieke:That's
Jules:so funny. He wishes, I guess he has some very interesting, POVs, that's very funny.
Marieke:Maybe it's because now we worship this futuristic thing rather than the gods, you know?
Jules:Totally.
Marieke:Yeah. That's a whole nother podcast.
Jules:I, I've been thinking as well as I've been preparing to speak to you today., Uh, this idea of dreams working in tandem with particular initiations that we undergo as individuals. I know for myself that the dream world or I, I really have played things out very symbolically in the dream world when I've been going through strong initiations, whether it's heartbreak or certainly the first time that I went to, uh, the Pana, just having this incredible series of. Dreams where I received like a golden key in all three of them, but I did a whole bunch of archiving of files, the these like useless files that I was never going to use again. As it Well in your dream? In my dream, yeah. As I was. It felt like physiologically releasing so much, uh, I would almost say like dead weight through that process of just being with myself so intensely for 10 days. And I was interested in if that's something that you've ever experienced or like how do you utilize the dreamscapes in your own personal world?
Marieke:Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, you having that experience during the past and that kind of makes sense also because you're, you're, you're making so much space for that information, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so what's interesting, like I think in general, people assume. Incorrectly actually, that all dreams are really interesting or spiritual, et cetera. And again, this was one of the sort of like silly details from laboratory research. It's quite grounding doing the scientific stuff because it does actually kind of open your eyes. Like when you have people sleeping in a lab and you open, you wake them up during REM sleeping, you ask them, what were you dreaming? Like many times they will have been dreaming something quite mundane, like, oh, I was just in the supermarket. Oh, I was just doing this. I was speaking to my dad. And so we tend to remember the really interesting dreams. So that's, that's like a first point. It doesn't take away fr it doesn't take away anything from the relevance or interest of dreams, but it's just, I think, I feel a lot of people have almost like this dream shame where they feel like, oh, I'm not having these really interesting spiritual artistic dreams every night. What's wrong with me? Well, I think no one is, very few people are, you know, so I always want, I kind of wanna mention that because I feel like a lot of people. They have unrealistic expectations of their dreams. Like even the best artists in the world, like you're not always in that mode, you know? Um, so that's one. The second one is depending on what's going on in your life, you don't always have the ability to make space for your. Calm processing for your good deep sleep, for your reflecting on your dreams when you wake up. So, so you doing the ana is a great way to make space for that. Um, and so in regards to your question, whether I've gone through those sort of like intense dreams during a transformative time, yes, of course, but then also, um, it has depended on how much time I was able to make for them. So I think it's a co-creation. Um, between yourself and your dream world, your waking self and your dream world, whether you can really engage in dreams, in, in, in that way, so to speak. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Like, so, for instance, I stopped thinking about dreams in a way where they just give me stuff. Like I, I really have to go into the dream space consciously and try and incubate and really be like, okay, now I'm ready to see what I need to see. And then the stuff usually comes to me. Um, so of course, yeah, going through a breakup or going through a big, a big transition phase, um, certainly certain individuals or certain scenarios will keep coming up, but to really receive a certain. Um, clear symbol, like for instance, for you, this golden key, um, that need, needs a bit more space. It's like, I think it's very much on the par with creative process when you're awake. So, for instance, imagine you're trying to write a new, you're trying to write a poem. Um, and you're trying to do it amidst the chaos and, and like, it's just really hard. So if you sit somewhere in a nice space, you make time and you clear your mind, then the poem's probably much more likely to come or flow out, right? Um, so yeah, I've had these experiences, um, but not continuously. And the ones I have had. Were sort of unexpected, like making the space was intentional, but what came through was very unexpected. Mm. And that is magic of Dreams because they really do show you stuff you didn't know. Mm. Which is crazy. Like where does it come from? Mm. You know, some people believe it's the subconscious. Like you can look at it from a union through a union lens. Some people believe it's ancestral. Some people believe it's non-linear neurological processing. I believe it's all of these things. Um, but it sure is a, a massive untapped potential, you know? Hmm. I think dream shame is such a good
Jules:phrase.
Marieke:It's true though, because like, you know, everyone speaks to me about dreams as if I'm like this. You know? I mean, I do have pretty cool dreams because I've been at this for a while, you know, and I've also experimented a lot within, within the lucid space. Um, and I think I've quite a wacky mind, so I think it, you know, something's really funny, but, um, yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't, I don't think it's. It like from knowing a bit about a neuroscience you need to, for your memory consolidation first, just to speak really sort of a boring neuroscientific term. It's actually not boring. It's really important'cause otherwise wouldn't have memory. Um, you just need to be able to kind of replay what happened that day. So like a lot of the, the dreams at the beginning of the night that are shorter, they're just kind of like sorting through your experiences of that day, deciding what stuff do we keep, what stuff do we lose? So like what your brain is doing. You see this on the EEG graph through, um, something called, um, spindles. Um, and you see like, okay, what the brain is doing is it's deciding. Um, today I had these 10 experiences and out of the 10, these two should go into long-term memory. Okay. Sorted. So it's doing a really important practical task. Um, and so yeah, those dreams are maybe not as, as interesting because you're kind of just replaying a lot of the stuff you've already experienced. So the dreams that are really kind of fantastical and wacky and spiritual, they tend to take place more in the early morning. Um, and, and during that time, dreams are actually longer because the REM sleep cycles get longer as night progresses. Mm. And so if you really wanna get into dreaming practice, it's fun. Funnily enough, you kind of need to stay in bed a bit longer in the morning. Mm. Or you need to go to bed really early. Mm. But like, it's kind of the juices in the morning, not at night. Mm-hmm.
Jules:Yeah. Do you listen to this Yung in life?
Marieke:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jules:Did you take Puff in their dream telepathy?
Marieke:Uh oh, no, but everyone was talking about that. Hmm. Yeah. So interesting. No, that's, but that's, yeah. I mean, that is such, I remember reading and Reddit forum page, I, I think it was, yeah, it must have been Reddit like years ago, like really, so long ago. And it was. It was about, it was the first time I ever heard about Lucid Dreaming. Right. As a concept. And, um, it was this forum and these people were talking about. Yeah. Okay. So, um, we're gonna do a dream experiment. We're gonna put an object on at a place where we've all been, and then they chose Times Square in New York, and we're gonna put a red box there on specifically this bench or whatever, and then everyone needs to go there in their dream and see what's in the box. And then, I mean, you can't really tell, it wasn't like scientifically testable because these individuals were living all over the world and trying to do this, but they, so their claim was that one person had put something in the box and then the other person was able to find that object and confirm that they had found that object through replying in the thread, uh, through the dream space. Of course, there's many reasons to be skeptical about this, but it is also possible that it's possible. Um, and I think, you know, there's so many examples of remote viewing outof body experiences. I don't think it's a common thing to happen, but I think it is a possible thing, especially for, for instance, mothers with children, twins. There's, there's a couple of, um, demographics for which, um, telepathy actually seems statistically provable. So twins. Um, and there was research done at the Arthur Kosler Institute in Edinburgh where they looked into this and also into remote viewing, and they found like mathematically, uh, statistically relevant e evidence for, for, for this type of stuff. So, I mean, I believe that I believe in the scientific method. I also believe that there's a lot of things that the scientific method cannot yet capture.
Jules:Hmm.
Marieke:And so the stuff like this, like dream tele telepathy, I do think it's possible. I also think it, it does require quite a intense level of being, interacting with your dreams already. But who knows? I dunno. Hmm. Have you ever experienced it?
Jules:Uh, no, I haven't, but my, my mom has certainly had a lot of pre cognizance and. By location or, but as you said, like remote viewing experiences, which I always found very interesting.
Marieke:Mm-hmm. Um, because you have a son, right, Jules?
Jules:Yes. Yeah.
Marieke:And so like, do you feel like you have, for instance, imagine if he's away somewhere, maybe he's playing at a friend's house, um, and all of a sudden he feels unwell. Have you had experiences where you can kind of sense that before you get the phone call? I can certainly
Jules:feel he'll, he'll come into my consciousness. Yeah, there'll be a sense of like, I'm, I'm now thinking about him. And then it often checks out, you know, time wise in terms of if something happened at preschool, you know, for example. Yeah, for sure.
Marieke:Because I think especially that bond between mothers and children is really, really, really strong. I mean, we come from the mothers.
Jules:Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how has your experience been of, the Sutton return in closing? Oh my God, we're gonna need
Marieke:another hour for this. Yeah,
Jules:it's such a, uh, because yours is, again, yours is conjunct, this bald line, which is the ic, so. Anyone who has satin transiting over the IC or into their fourth house, that's a wildly strong transit. But to have your satin return taking place there as well, is just it. It's really big because this is like, this is the deepest sort of psychological, energetic foundations of your being and, and. That's where you sat in return. This is
Marieke:like the last, this was like since a year, right? Or like since two years. It's
Jules:March 20, 23. Yeah. Yeah. Until February next year. You get a little break of a few months, but yeah.
Marieke:Well, Jules, do you want a
Jules:summary?
Marieke:No, seriously, it was like of epic proportions. It was actually unbelievable. Um, I mean, I don't really mind sharing personal stuff just to like, I'm not gonna share any names and stuff obviously, but like shockingly bad, breakup completely outta nowhere. Roof of my house collapse collapses. As this happens, this breakup happens. It was the wettest month in the Netherlands ever recorded in Dutch history, and I had a hole in my roof and it was raining, but I couldn't leave the house because someone needed to empty the buckets of the rain. Um, at the same time, like my, yeah. Ah. There were, there were a couple of these moments where it was so dramatic where you're just like, this cannot be real like this. This is like, and even that, my friends were like, dude, like, are you okay? Like, what the fuck? Um, but um, yeah, and also like, just weird stuff like work wise. Basically last year, I think this year is a bit more smooth sailing, but last year I would say no. I'd say like a year and a half ago, I had a moment where I lost my relationship, um, which was really the relationship that I thought I was going to end it. You know, I really thought, okay, this is like my person, person I'm gonna have children with, et cetera. Um, my house. Which, you know, you just kind of like landed into refurbished, et cetera. Lost my job. Um, yeah, it was like everything but all at the same time. Mm. And it was like such an insane, um, period of testing and like, obviously people go through way worse stuff, but like on a psychological level that was just so much at the same time. And since then, I feel like it's just been this like unraveling of a lot of. Aspects of myself that don't serve. You know, like for instance, I feel like the Libra side of things is something I struggle with is like the people pleasing, the lack of boundaries, the lack of sort of, you know, I do, I definitely do struggle with, I find it so hard to say no to people that sometimes I'd rather just, you know, it's, it's good. I, I, I'm learning to be more honest and confrontational. In, yeah, in my communication, which, you know, as um, sort of like in general, I think as a woman is a task. Um, but yeah, there's aspects I think of that, that I've been in that I've been forced, really forced to integrate because the same lesson has just been coming back and back and back again. Whether it's through work or through social relationships or whatever. So yeah, a hundred percent. Um. I would say spiritually, I don't even feel like so much has changed. It's really more like practically and like psychologically, and it's really hands-on. Mm. It's really like, okay, you need to get your shit together with money. You need to get your shit together with your house. You need to get your shit together with the, you know, it was really like this grandma just coming and just like whooping my ass, you know? Totally.
Jules:It's so practical. You know, it, it is like time, space, gravity, like all the real world stuff. That's just even, that's so wild with the, because it's. Related to your domestic environment, being in the fourth house and to have the, the leak in the roof as well.'cause when I was first learning about it, my, one of my first teachers said, it's like a satin return is if there's any potholes in your foundations, you'll essentially face plant in them during that time, so you can't look away. So there's that feeling of like the stark reality. Uh, but that's wild that it was above ground.
Marieke:And you know what's even crazier? Like we had just, we had just been to Greece to help build our friends. House. Wow. And we had been laying the foundation for their house, so it was so metaphorical as well. Like we just spent like a month building the foundation of, of, for someone else, you know? Mm-hmm. Which was also the thing that both of us had as an issue. You know, like always prioritizing others for ourselves. And then having this, our own roof collapse in our own home was like, it, it was just meant, I mean, I was, I remember sitting on the floor one night just with this rain streaming down just. With a glass of wine, just like, what the fuck? It was a real like Bridget Jones moment, you know? Um, and then prior to that, also, having had this accident, and then during Covid, my, my record label almost going bankrupt because I'd pre-finance these tours and there were no shows and like, it was just this string of events where you're just like. Can I get a break? Like, is this, is this like, is this normal? But you're right. And actually, you know, I can kind of laugh about, at least I think it's good to try and have a sense of humor, but, uh, and I, and I think in general, I, I'm quite good at laughing things off and just thinking like, fuck it, let's just keep going. But definitely that moment was, uh, real testing, testing points. Yeah,
Jules:I think, but, uh, your, your, your chart's just so fascinating to me. Like, it's interesting what you said about spiritually. It, it was it, because you've got Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, they're all in such a beautiful relationship to your Saturn. Like there's a seamlessness there. Uh, and then, but the Saturn is in this really, sort of funky aspect. It's called a Queen ConX to your son. So there's mm-hmm. There's this sort of real, it's funny'cause it's satin and then it's the 10th house. Like they work beautifully together. Uh, it is the structure, the foundations like building these strong foundations in your work that are. That begin in the roots of your everyday life, let's say like the domestic environment. Mm-hmm. Uh, but at first it, it could surely be this push pull'cause Yeah. I mean that I have a li ascendant and it's, it's such a, it's can be such a learned behavior, I think, especially when you are so deeply. Uh, aware of and able to read people, read the wants, needs and desires of others almost first, and to read almost their emotions first. Yes. But yeah, it's, yeah, you've just got so much force. I'm sorry that none of you can see this chart, but it's, it's wildly strong.
Marieke:That's so fun. Yeah. It's been really interesting going through it like this. I mean, I've. I think I've had like one or two readings before, but the way that you, you like dissect it and break it down and also in relation to the specific things that we're talking about is like, it's so interesting. Um, I'm curious about your chart now as well. Actually, because you also have this, you know, obviously in order to to, to do the work that you're doing, you also need to have this sort of like penetrative, but then also like synthesizing quality, which is not, in those two things are usually not really something that you find combined in one person, you know?
Jules:Yeah, well I think, and to
Marieke:verbalize it aesthetically as well.
Jules:Hmm, well, I'm a Gemini son.
Marieke:Um,
Jules:so there's that. But we both have Pluto conjunct, ascendant, which is a very strong marking for somebody to have. Uh,'cause it's like the way I read the ascendant is it's, it's partly related to what we've brought forward in our personality, uh, as a byproduct of the early childhood. And when Pluto's there, it's like. It's so intense and psychological and um, like there, there's force to the personality. It's just even so much stronger in yours.'cause you've got Pluto trying your Mars, like the force, the willpower. And I'm, I'm probably like the, the obsessive qualities of your, of as well. Like, I know I. Don't even
Marieke:start. But this is something that is also actually a genuine problem that I have because I, I, I, I have, like, I had to set up rules for myself about like, instance, what happens is I'll get interested in a really specific topic and I'll just, I'll just be up till four in the morning reading about it. And obviously now, and I was bad enough with Wikipedia now, Chachi, TPS here, like I'm, you know. Like, it's really, it's really like, and then all my books and stuff, so I, I have, I've had to learn over time to even with like, for instance, with psychedelics, like being a psycho. Just for the sake of the interest of the human mind, you know? Mm-hmm. But like really having to set, uh, that's, I think that's also maybe part of the Saturn return thing is just like, okay, you're allowed to go far, but within these parameters and on these days and at these times, you know?
Jules:Totally. I think that whole world is so, uh, so stunning. Like it's just. Yeah, I haven't traveled there for a while, but I, I do really, really love that space as well. Yeah.
Marieke:You kind of forget about it until you go there again and you're just like, wait. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, it's quite, um, yeah, it's very interesting. Mm-hmm.
Jules:Thank you so much for being here. It's been a real pleasure to
Marieke:it. It really has. Thank you. That was, that was a real treat.
Jules:Legend. All the links to Marika's work are below, but is there anything that you have upcoming that you want to share? I, there's this brilliant course that you can watch at any time over at AT Via, which is linked below, but is there anything upcoming or are you work one-to-one with people?
Marieke:Yeah, I mean I do this, so I work, do I do multiple things one-to-one. One is that I work with artists. Mm. A creative, you don't have to be an artist. I'm creative, but I work with people who have the intention to realize a creative or artistic project. Um, and this is a work that I do at the Conservatoire in Amsterdam and various universities and schools. But I also do these sessions one-on-one, and I kind of enjoy the one-on-ones because. It's like, it's sort of like consultancy, but it's really like, okay, so what's the vision? And then how to realize it. So it's kind of like synthesizing that, um, the ideas world and the imagination, but then also with the really hands-on practical knowledge of 15 years of working in the arts. You know, like, okay, then you should contact this record label, or you should, you know, speak to this person or like this, like this thing. So that's something that I do, but then I also in the space of the dreams, um. This is really something that's developed on request. So many people were asking like, can we just, do you have time to just sit down and can we discuss my dreams? Um, and I'm really enjoying that as well. So that's something that I definitely, uh, want to offer. And, you know, I'm still working on things like my website and stuff, but for sure, um, if anyone's interested in, in delving into their dream space, I'm, I'm super up for that. I'm trying to find the right format for it, but I think like. It's probably quite suitable. Um, but yeah, I would say like in terms of what's coming up, I think the AYA course is the thing I'd like to highlight because it's basically, um, that's the fruit of like four years of really intense research and it's like the neuroscience of dreaming. It's cross-cultural perspectives like Tibetan Buddhism, Sufi, Hindu, um. Like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, like there's so many different perspectives like Native American, Australian, Aboriginal, Celtic, and then there's lucid dreaming, dream Tech and history of psychoanalysis. So Jung Freud and Symbolism. So basically, most of what I know about Dreams is in there. So if you, if you kinda want like, uh, in terms of like the intellectual side of things, the historical side. So I would say that's probably a good place to start. And then if you feel like, oh, I, I would like to go more into the sort of artistic, creative, let's, let's talk about my dream space, then that's definitely also an option, but more on a one-to-one sense. Yeah.
Jules:That's brilliant. Thank you, legend. I hope you Thanks, Jill. It was
Marieke:great. You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye.