Remember, these tantrums are not based on big feelings and big emotions. They're just mad because they're not in charge.
SPEAKER_00I will say there's a lot of different approaches to tantrums online. This feels possibly quite uh intense for some parents.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a lack of understanding of what tantrums are all about. Because if you it it looks it looks fabulous. It looks like this just the end of the world, but it isn't. I try to distract him and that doesn't work. Should I ignore his tantrums in public too or address them? 1% is ignoring, 99.99999% is connecting. Okay, you've got to look for those opportunities to connect. Welcome to the Bratbusters Parenting Podcast. My name is Lisa Bunnage. I'm a parenting coach. I'm a mom. I'm also a grandmother.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Amy Bunnage, Lisa's daughter, and I handle the marketing and planning here at Bratbusters. While I don't have kids, each episode we'll dive into parenting topics and Lisa will answer your questions. Let's get started. Okay, Sugar Lump, what is today's topic? Today's topic is when ignoring tantrums goes too far.
SPEAKER_01When ignoring oh, very good topic. Because I always say you ignore tantrums, but there's a very specific way of doing it. Very good. I like this one.
SPEAKER_00Because I think that you get a lot of questions online on your social media and you just don't always have the time to answer them all. But I thought a long form content like a podcast would be a good place to discuss this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it it deserves discussing because I can understand why people would misinterpret that. Because, like me, we don't always listen to the whole video all the way through. We might just look at part of it or just maybe watch one video that didn't, that wasn't really that long and didn't explain it all. But yeah, there is a very specific way of ignoring tantrums.
Okay. Would you like to go into your approach for tantrums? Into the very specific way of dealing with tantrums. Okay. So you do ignore a tantrum. Now, a tant and I want to first say that a tantrum is not based on huge feelings and huge emotions. They don't feel unloved when they're screaming when they're having a tantrum. It's not like that. They're just, it's a loss of emotional control at not getting their own way. It's based on anger at things not going their way. I'm assuming you've already said no to something that they couldn't have. Let's say you took the remote control away. Now they are mad that you took that remote control away, so they're having a massive tantrum, okay? So what you do is you look away, but you want to be nearby and you completely ignore them unless they're hitting themselves, someone else or damaging property. Then you physically restrain them, okay? But you're not hurting them, you're just preventing any damage to themselves or someone else or property. And then you still don't look at them or talk to them. And you just want to look like you know they're having a tantrum because you're right there. So, but you're not reacting to it. You're completely looking like you couldn't care less, like you're just waiting for a bus, so nonchalant, throw in a few yawns, whatever, look away. This will, if you haven't done this in the past and this is new, they're gonna get worse because they're gonna think, well, wait a minute, I was in control of you yesterday when I had a tantrum. Now I'm not, so I'm just gonna up it. So they usually will get worse before they get better because they're used to being in control of you. And now all of a sudden you're you're in control of yourself, right? You're not gonna react to that. I say when they're on the low road, which is a tantrum, it's not bad behavior, it's just a loss of emotional control, right? So when they're on the low road, you stay on the high road, and what you're gonna do is you're gonna invite them there, but you're gonna time it appropriately. So you're staying, you're just nearby while they're having a tantrum. As soon as they're done, and you don't go on your phone, don't talk to someone when you're when they're having a tantrum, like don't get into a conversation. You could sort of quick chat, but not no conversations. So as soon as they're done, you look at them. Now you're gonna invite them up to the high road. You're gonna look right at them and say, Oh, y'all done? Do you want to go read a book? Like in other words, do you wanna come join me? Now you're rewarding them with um attention, okay? You don't have to do anything exciting. You don't you don't even have to read a book with them. You say, Oh, y'all done? You wanna come help me do the laundry or whatever? In other words, do you wanna cut, do you want to spend time with me now? Do you want to be with me now? So so what you're doing is you're ignoring the crazy and then you're rewarding the calm. If they start up again, just go whoops and then ignore again. Now, a lot of parents say, but what if they say, nobody loves me, I need a hug? That's not love they're after, that's control and manipulation. They're trying to drag you down to the low road. Do not get dragged down there. Remember, these tantrums are not based on big feelings and big emotions. They're just mad because they're not in charge. That's all it is.
SPEAKER_00Now, I feel like there's a lot that we could unpack
there. Uh, first, just because it's so top of mind, because you just said it, it's the hug comment. I see online especially. A lot of people feel like you should never withhold a hug.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but that's not a love hug. That's a control hug. They're gonna say anything to pull you in because they know you've never said no to a hug before. They'll do it at bedtime too, if they don't want to go to bed. I need a hug. No, they it's not love they're after. That is not a love hug. You gotta discern between the two. One is manipulation and control. That's what this is when they're during a tantrum. And then when they're you're just sitting beside them or you're just walking around and everything's going great. I need a hug. Of course you're gonna hug them, but not during a tantrum because that is all about control. They're trying to drag you down to that low road. You stay on the high road, wait till they're finished, and then you invite them up to the high road. Remember, you want to stay there. Do not get dragged down to the low road. Because once you go down there, that ladder is kicked out. You can't get back up to the high road for the rest of that day. They're they'll remember that. When you say the low road, what do you specifically mean like that? When they're acting crazy, stuff that you don't want, when they're just acting out, basically, when they're acting against the grain, something that, like, let's say they're um they're having a fit, they're tantruming, it's an obvious one. Or if they're naughty, um, it's it's usually almost always when they're um being rude to you, like just even if they're not having a tantrum, they say, I hate you. You're a lousy parent, whatever. When they get real snotty like that, that's the low road. Okay. It's all about control. It's usually based on anger. That's the low road.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I'm having a hard time discerning the idea of like when I think going down to the low road, I would think the adult throwing a tantrum. I wouldn't think just discussing or talking with them.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're in it with them, though. All of a sudden, you've just joined them. They're on the low road. Now you've joined them, you're with them. They've controlled you, they've pulled you into that zone. I'm very, I believe in like energy. I know I'm not really that foo-foo about it, but I'm in that on the high road is the positive energy, the low road is the negative energy. I'm gonna invite them up to the positive, okay? They're in the negative zone. I do not want to be dragged into it. As soon as they've pulled me in with a hug or with talking about it or picking them up or looking at them, all of a sudden now I'm in that negative zone with them. They have controlled
me. And this is specifically, I don't think you mentioned the idea of needs versus wants. Well, this is a tantrum where they've got like the I I use the example if they have the remote and they shouldn't have it. It's when you've taken charge and you've done the right thing. Okay, they're not having a tantrum because they're sick or hungry. That's different. Then you feed them and look after them. But this is just because they're mad because they didn't get their own way over something they shouldn't have got their own way over. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then I think because if I'm hearing this for the first time, and I will say there's a lot of different approaches to tantrums online, this feels possibly quite uh intense for some parents. I'm trying to think of like a phrasing, but this could feel like a pretty intense way to handle them.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a lack of understanding of what tantrums are all about. Because if you it it looks it looks fabulous. It looks like this just the end of the world, but it isn't. It's usually done by younger children, right? And they are coming out of they're they're coming out of babyhood and they're going into kidhood, right? Usually, their vocabulary is not their first form of communication. They can't communicate things other than just freaking out, okay? So their freakout is nowhere near like a newborn. They they cry and scream and they turn red. It looks horrendous, but it's not. They're just communicating a want or a need, right? Usually with babies it's a need. Um, but with toddlers, it's more it's more around the wants, usually, okay? So yeah, it's not as dramatic as it looks. It's wonderful theater, but it's not as dramatic as if we were to act like that, it would be the end of the world, okay? Unless you're a full-grown toddler, but you get the idea. That is how they communicate that they're mad. It's all they've got because their verbal skills are not as advanced yet. So they still resort back to this physical stuff, the drama, the screaming, the crying, because that's all they had when they were babies. So they're just coming out of that. And then you look at how quick they recover sometimes, too. You know, they don't always, but still, they get themselves so wound up. It's not based on on big emotions and big feelings, though, not in the way you think of it. It's based on a lot of anger and frustration and not getting what they want, not being able to control the situation, not having the remote control. When you turn off the TV, they have a fit. When you have to leave the playground, they'll have a fit, that kind of stuff. They just don't, they they want what they want, when they want, and how they want it. And that's how they communicate it. Now, they get worse and worse if you keep feeding it. If you give in ever to a tantrum, um, they'll get worse. Or if you talk to them during a tantrum, they'll get worse. This is the way you want to, you want to quickly get help them to outgrow them, and this is the quickest way to do it.
SPEAKER_00I know a lot of people online uh discuss the idea that tantrums are usually just from an unmet need. That's crap.
SPEAKER_01Absolute crap. Some of them are for needs, but we're talking about the ones that are just because I want that iPad and I want it now. That kind of thing. The wants is what we're talking about here. But that's ridiculous. Most tantrums are not based on needs when you think about it. Most, because we're usually meeting their needs. We're feeding them, we're looking after them when they're sick, we're putting them to bed when they're tired. We're usually pretty good at meeting their needs. Most tantrums are based on they don't want to leave the park. That's not a need. They don't need to stay at the park. Um, they threw something across the room and then they got mad when you took put that thing away. They don't need that toy that they just threw across the room. Most tantrums are based on wants, not needs.
SPEAKER_00And how are you telling the difference? Because I know that you talk about the fact that they're angry in those moments. How do you know that the child isn't upset or hurt? Like, why do you specifically say anger?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, usually parents know. Like what started it? Leaving the park doesn't mean that they're traumatized, right? You see what I'm saying? It's what started it. That's how you can tell. Did you take the remote control away from them? Did you were that did they grab your phone and they're not supposed to have it and you took that away? Then you know it's over a want. It's how it started, is how you know. You can usually, most parents would know. Um, yeah, but if they they don't usually tantrum without you knowing what happened.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not saying you don't know what happened. I'm saying how do you know that they're not upset rather than that? Oh, it's okay that they're meant.
SPEAKER_01Well, okay. It's still based on them not getting their own way. Okay. They they might be sad and upset about it, but it's not something that you need to feed, okay? Like um, maybe we're upset that we have to that we can't speed down the freeway. We might be upset about that, but we don't need to speed down the freeway. You see, it's kind of like that. We don't we s we can still be upset about something, but it doesn't justify that we're that we should have it. So it's okay if they're upset even. That's okay. But after it's done, now you're connecting. They will learn. When I act like a fool, I get no attention whatsoever. But as soon as I calm down and act nicely, then I'll get attention.
SPEAKER_00I know I'm throwing a lot at you right now.
SPEAKER_01No, I love that. And it's frustrating because when I first came on TikTok, especially where I really started on social media a few years ago, um, people argued with me right, left, and center. Now, how much do I like that?
SPEAKER_00Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01I feed off it. I absolutely feed off it. I don't get that as much anymore, uh, because I guess I've been talking about it more often. Or maybe those people that hated me, they're all gone now.
SPEAKER_00Well, can I also say you just don't read your your social media comments either?
SPEAKER_01No, but I know what people say, and I see it in the lives. You know, people used to argue with me all the time. I don't even get that anymore. So not as much. It's very rare now. So, but I love that because that's how we learn too. And those are the people I really want to get to. Is if you think that that tantrum needs needs um consoling and hugging and all that, you're wrong, okay? Unless it's over a need. They need to learn how to process their the how to self-regulate themselves. And the way you're teaching them how to do that is by completely staying calm and not giving it any attention. You are literally teaching them through osmosis, you're teaching them how to self-regulate. That's the best way to do it. Because children lean into what works and they lean away from what doesn't. You talking to them about it, I've had so many parents who've said to me, You won't believe this, Lisa. It's two years old, let's say. He hit me, hit me right across the face. And I had a big talk with him. And I said, Look, that really hurt mommy, and you don't want to hurt mommy because you love mommy. And then he'll say, Yeah, I love you, mommy, and then you'll say, and then he said, I'm sorry, mommy. And then she'll say, and I said, Don't do it again. He says, I promise I won't do it again. And then the I know exactly what's coming. The parent will say to me, and then he hit me again. Can you believe it? And I said, I can't believe he wouldn't. You just basically fed him. You basically gave him all that attention around what he just did. That's not how you address this stuff. It's not these mini therapy sessions discussing all the big feelings and big emotions. It's absolute crap. It's garbage. It doesn't work, it's ridiculous. You're feeding it. You're feeding all the negativity. It's the quick actions with toddlers and three and above, it's still actions in that you're ignoring a tantrum, or it's consequences if they've done if they've done something naughty. It's not these big discussions around bad behavior. I know parents want to do it. I know it's trending out there from what I hear, that all these big discussions over feelings, it's fine to discuss their feelings, but not when they're acting out. That is not the time to discuss them. Afterwards, I still don't discuss bad behavior, but I do discuss their feelings, but when they can discuss them in a nicer way, then we will discuss them. Here's the thing though. Once you're a really good calm leader, they calm down enough that they don't have all those big feelings and big emotions and big anger. It just goes away because all of a sudden they're self-regulated. And this is what does it. Your leadership is what self-regulates them. I've worked with tons of teenagers and kids, all sorts of kids with lots of behavioral issues. My leadership is what calmed them down, is what gave them more confidence, higher self-esteem, more they were more self-regulated because I didn't react to the crazy stuff and I rewarded the good stuff. Now, now wait a minute. I want to get back to this because I said I rewarded the good stuff. I don't mean I don't give rewards for good behavior, but what I mean is they got my attention when they were good, not when they were not good. But they got consequences for being naughty, but a tantrum is not bad behavior. A tantrum is a loss of emotional control, not getting what they want.
SPEAKER_00And the reason why I'm asking so many questions is well, firstly, you do get a lot in your social media comments, but I would say that
I'm really trying to tease out because when you just say ignore the tantrums, I know that you're, you know, you're just trying to get your point across. But I want to make sure that people are understanding your whole thought process. Like, because you always say how important connection is with children. And I also want to say, you also talk about the fact that the longer you sit in the negative, is that like with the tantrums? Like kids typically, I would assume, are not feeling great when they're having a tantrum.
SPEAKER_01They feel lousy. I know how to make kids feel good. I'm really good at connecting. That's my strength. Is it not? It's not the correction. The correction is a tiny part of this. Connection is my strength. That's what I'm teaching here. And by ignoring the tantrums and waiting till they're done, then saying, Oh, y'all done? Do you want to go read a book? Now we're connecting. They like reading a book with you. They know they're not gonna get that until they stop this craziness, right? They learn that really quickly. Now, I've I've done this with teenagers, I've done this with bigger kids, I've done it with toddlers. It works with all of them. You go crazy on me and act out like that and start screaming and hollering, I'm gonna be filing my nails. But the second you're done, are y'all done? Okay, do you want to go to the park or something? And they learn, see, my calmness, that is what calms them down. It's my calmness. That's I keep using this example, but that eight-year-old kid I was asked to work with, I'd never met him before. And they asked if I'd work with him. They said he's a real handful. I had heard about him, but I'd never met him. So I said, Hi, I'm Lisa. He's eight years old, and he says to me, if you don't give me what I want, I'm gonna have a fit. And I just leaned back in my chair and I said, Bring it on. And he never did. I was hoping he would because their fit scenes, meltdowns, and tantrums is my opportunity to exercise my calm leadership. By being calm and completely ignoring that crazy stuff, that is what calms them down. He never did have a fit. You could see the relief in his face. He looked like, oh, she knows what she's doing. He was great with me. The teacher even came over and said, What did you do? And I said, Oh, I just asked him to have a fit. And I didn't explain it any further. But anyway, yeah, he just, but I'm already, I'm already a leader, I know how to do this, so he just knew that I knew what I was doing, right? But I don't go into the crazy zone. I just don't even entertain it. I completely ignore it.
SPEAKER_00And I think one last thing just before we get into the parenting questions, is when you talk about the filing of your nails, but
you also talk about the fact you wouldn't get on a phone, you wouldn't get on a conversation. Like what's the difference there?
SPEAKER_01Okay, the big difference is uh that they know I'm standing there waiting for them to finish. They need to know that. They need to know that I'm involved in the tantrum in that I'm listening for it to finish. If I got, if I start looking at a phone or having a conversation with someone, I think that's rude. They're still going through something. I'm there with them, but I'm not looking at them or I'm not joining them in that, okay? But I'm nearby waiting, and they learn that. After the first couple of tantrums, they learn that, okay? So I'm as because the second they're done, I am very quick. Oh, y'all done? Okay, do you want to go to the park or do you want to go read a book or do you want to come help me? Whatever. Now, when they're in that tantrum hangover, you know, the hiccup cries, you know, because they're coming out of it, right? That's the I call that the tantrum hangover. When they're in that zone, they're still kind of in that negative zone. So I'm very careful with that. They'll often say, I need a hug. That is not a love hug. That is a come on, console me because what I went through was hell. It's it's no, I still wouldn't console that because then I'm giving it energy. I might pat them on the back, say, you're all right, let's go read a book. And then if we're sitting reading a book, if they climb in my lap, that's fine. But it's all part of the whole, they're trying to control you, they're trying to drag you into this negativity. I do not go there. I'm very good at being positive around kids and they like that. When I used to work with kids, they used to, and I used to say, Well, how come you're so good with me? And they said, We don't want to lose fun, Lisa. I was fun, right? And with my own kids even, they didn't want to lose fun, mom. I'm really good at connecting. If you don't, if you don't balance this out like 99%, 1% is ignoring, 99.99999% is connecting. Okay, you've got to look for those opportunities to connect. A lot of parents ignore their kids when they're good too. I don't tend to do that. Let's say they're doing independent play and I'm busy running around doing chores. Every time I walk past them, I will comment on what they're doing so that they know I'm still around. So parents a lot of times do ignore their kids when they're good. So they don't reward the good. And I don't reward good behavior, but I reward it with my attention. You know what I mean? Like I'll go up and say, oh wow, what are you building there? So they always know that I'm kind of there for them. And that's really important too. I want them to know that I'm really connected and I want them to know how important they are to me. And that was really, when I was working with kids, um, that was very important to them. They said, you always seemed interested in us. And that was a lot of kids said that to me, you always seemed interested in what I was doing. That's really important. Now, when someone treats you that well and they're really connected with you and they show an interest in what you're interested in or what you're doing, it's very hard to act out with that person. It becomes almost embarrassing, okay? Once you get good at this, this is leadership, right? You're guiding them into the good zone, into the high road, and you're inviting them up there. Once they're there, it's very hard for them to go back down to the low road. It's almost embarrassing for them because there's no need to do it anymore. Because all of a sudden you make them feel good, and when they feel good, they do good. When they feel bad, they do bad.
SPEAKER_00And this is why this can't fit in a 60-second social media video.
SPEAKER_01It's hard to do. And I I, you know, I love the kickback stuff. I love it when people come after me. Um, and I know that when they just see the videos, that's that's what's gonna happen because I know it's too quick to explain. But the thing is that when you get good at this ignoring tantrums and not giving any attention to this crazy scene stuff, even with older kids, I do address bad behavior, but tantrums and scenes and saying they hate you, that is all in the attitude department. Okay, I do not address attitude, I ignore it. Okay, and then they it becomes embarrassing to do it. I I I don't want to go on too much about that, but it if you, okay, let's say you had a mentor that you looked up to, it could be a grandparent, a coach, a teacher, someone that expects something from you, like they expect you to be good, but they know they make you feel good. And they make you, they just make you proud of yourself. They don't just say nice things to you, they make you feel proud of who you are. How do you treat that person? That's leadership, right? That's all I'm teaching here is that I want you to be that mentor for that leader for your children. They don't tend to act out. How often did you kids act out? I don't know, every day. Hardly ever. Because, and then if they did, like if they forgot to do a chore or something, they'd apologize to me and then offer or something that they had to do, like a consequence. And sometimes I'd say, I forget it. Everyone forgets a chore every so often. So, but that's where you want to head, right? But but before that, once you're a leader, there's a lot more exceptions and there's a lot more negotiating with your kids. They have a lot more say. But when you're gaining your leadership skills, you you want to be in charge, you want to be the one who sort of makes the rules. They can have some input too, but the more uh the more um choices that you give them when you're growing your leadership, it can be more confusing for them, okay? But later on, it's great. But getting respect is hard work. Once you've got it, things change. And it's interesting because I get some long-term clients who hire me, you know, many, many times. And um, then we get into more of that. But boy, you gotta cement your leadership first before you can really go with exceptions and and asking their advice on what they want to happen. You know, it sort of shifts and changes down the road. But initially, 100% consistency, you want to set the rules and the boundaries and the structure initially.
SPEAKER_00I do want to clarify, like, we were not perfect kids by any means, but I would say as well, like if I'm listening to that, I want to make it clear that like I wasn't following rules because out of fear or out, you know what I mean? Like I just wouldn't want it to come off as that way. Like I I personally, if I look back on my childhood, I was doing it because it was like I just wanted to, I didn't want to please you. Pride.
SPEAKER_01You had pride. You had high self-esteem. Plus, who was in trouble more than anyone in our household? You. It was always me. I was always the one in trouble. You've got to be humble and accountable yourself. That's a leader. Okay. My kids had total control over that. If I promise to make muffins, that was one of my favorite stories that when they were eight and three. Mom, can you please make muffins tonight? Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll make muffins tonight. Of course I forgot. The next day, Mom, you forgot to make muffins. I said, Oh shoot, I promise I'll make them tonight. They looked at each other and smirked. I knew right away they thought I wasn't gonna do it and they were gonna get something out of me. So I said, I said I promise, and they were laughing as they walked away. Sure enough, the next morning I forgot. They come in the kitchen, he's eight, she's three. They're both sm oh, she's smiling from ear to ear. He's got a real smug look on his face. And he said, Mom, remember last night you promised you were gonna make muffins? Well, I don't see no muffins. So I said, Oh shoot, what do you want? And he says, We talked about it, and you were smiling ear to ear. We talked about it, and we'd like to go to the water slide park after school. So we went to the water slide park after school. It was fun though. It was just fun. Like I loved it when they got something over me like that. It was always something like that. So yeah, it was great. You gotta be accountable to you gotta be humble. I never tried to, this is funny, my son's very funny. And I remember once I said, I was talking about parenting, and I said, I never tried to look smarter than you guys. And my son said, like that would have been possible anyway. Yeah, but I never tried to look smart, but I was a leader. I was a good leader. But you don't want to look like you know it all. And you know, if they'd asked me something and I didn't know, I was very quick to say, I don't know, let's figure it out together. So I always wanted them to feel empowered and also that, you know, because if you act like you have all the answers to everything, it's very intimidating. I didn't want to be intimidating. I wanted to be a good mentor slash leader. That was my role.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Do you have anything you want to add before we get into the parenting questions? Okay. First one is Sydney from Canada. Do you still ignore tantrums if a child's tired or hungry? I have a two and a half-year-old daughter who often melts
down around lunch and nap time. She seems to need extra support, getting through lunch and ready for a nap.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's when you do. You never ignore a tantrum around needs. If they're tired, you put them to bed. If they're hungry, you feed them. Absolutely. Yeah. Because remember, I was already saying that these are the tantrums around the wants, the stuff that they shouldn't have or shouldn't, or they should be leaving the park or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Okay, the next one is Miriam from the United States. My son's five years old. When something doesn't go the way he wanted, or as
a reaction to the consequence, he becomes destructive. Nothing too crazy and dangerous. He'll push all the dining room chairs down or open drawers and throw things out. Or take something he thinks is important to me and hide it and screech loudly. Is this considered a tantrum? Do I stop him from destruction destructive behavior or ignore it and make him clean it up later? The screaming's hard enough for me to handle. I have to go in another room to stop from threatening him to be quiet or tell him to go scream in his room. I find it very difficult to ignore. I feel like I need to stop it, especially if it's disruptive to the whole household.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's more of a planned, planned out scene to upset you. I would, unless it's something that he's really breaking, I would let him go and I would have on the behavior board no aggressive behavior would be his rule. And then after he's finished this scene, it's a show. He's putting on a show. Um and he's learned to do this, by the way. The only reason he's doing it is because it works. It either gets him his own way, because you give in sometimes, or it upsets you. You can't show either of those. Let him go. He's acting out, pushing chairs around, that's fine. So then you'd say, I'll tell you what, let's go to the board. This is after he's finished. Let's go to the board. See my tone? Bit of a lilt in my voice. If you look upset, he just won. Okay, because he's trying to upset you. That's why he's doing it. He's he's been trained by you to do that. By five years old, they only do what works. They do by about three and a half, they only do what works, okay? So it guaranteed it must pay off somehow. Whereas I would make sure it never paid off with me. As soon as he's finished, I'd say, Oh, let's go to the board and let me see now. Your rule was no aggressive behavior. Um, and then you were pushing chairs around, that was all aggressive. You don't have to mention everything. And then see how I'm not judging, I'm not blaming and shaming, I'm just pointing it out as a fact. So your consequence is this. I'll tell you what I'm gonna get you to do. I'm gonna get you to put the chairs back up and also, and whatever he broke, or not broke, but whatever he threw around, I get him to sort that back out. But I would list it all out and I'd say, I'll check it off as you do it. So because he was so destructive, I always say, make that first consequence, the chore about two minutes long. Not if he's five years old and he's just, you know, throwing a bunch of stuff around the house. I would make a list of everything he did, be very organized, and go slow. You don't need to be quick with this. A lot of parents rush through this stuff. I like to drag it out, okay? So I'm gonna get you to put pick up the chairs and the pillows, and you also threw all the books all over the floor. I'm gonna get you to put up, and I'm writing this down as I'm telling him. And then I'm gonna say, I'll tell you what, that's gonna take a while. I'm gonna give you 20 minutes to do that, and that starts now, okay? Then don't say another word about that except to guide him into the next thing. So say, okay, let's start with the chairs. I don't, he's probably gonna say, I hate you, I hate you. He's running away in the other direction. Just let him go. When the 20 minutes is up and he's done none of it, say, okay, let's go to the board. See my tone? I have not mentioned what else he should be doing. I haven't mentioned he hasn't done anything. Say, let's go to the board. Now, he might not even come to the board. He probably won't at this point because he's five. He's figured out he's gonna get the big consequence. So that's fine. You go to the board all by yourself. You say, Now let me see now. So his rule was no aggressive behavior. Then his consequence was to clean up all the stuff that he threw around. So he didn't do that. So let's see. Oh, here we go. So now we're gonna go straight to 24-hour media blackout. That's the second consequence on the behavior board or whatever you've got written down there. So then you have to go find him if he's not there with you. Then you say to him, Um, by the way, your 24-hour media blackout starts now, and that's it. Do not say another word. He's gonna go berserk. You know why? Because all of a sudden, you're leading and you're you're inviting him to follow you now. In the past, he's been in charge. Now you're in charge. He's gonna fight back. He's five, he's had all those years to be in charge. He's not gonna go easy, okay? So be ready for it. And the bigger the scene, the bigger the lesson. Let him have his scene. I don't care. He'll probably destroy the whole house at that point. Be prepared for that, okay? Nothing you can do because parents will say to me now, well, what about now he goes around and destroys everything? All you can say to that is, well, that's why you've got 24-hour media blackout. And just let him destroy stuff when he calms down a bit. I would put it back. You can't ask him to clean that up. You just can't. Don't ask me why because it's too confusing. But yeah, you just clean up after him all throughout that 24 hours.
SPEAKER_00How is that not discussing bad behavior when you're pointing out the aggressive behavior?
SPEAKER_01Because you're, I always say you address bad behavior and you have a consequence for it. That is that's just that's the consequence we're discussing.
SPEAKER_00Okay, but that's different from just discussing bad behavior.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, discussing bad behavior is when after the big scene's all over. Now, why would you do that? You know you shouldn't have done that. That hurts mummy's feelings. You're breaking, that's what I mean. You don't discuss once it's done, once I've handed out the consequence, I never go back and talk about it. Never. He's in charge if you do. All of a sudden, it's a lot, it's he's got a lot of control, a lot of power over you. Because now you're discussing it. It's like you can't let go of it. I've let go. It's over. I know what I'm doing. I've dealt with it, right? The calmer you are, the better. But while he's got that 24-hour media blackout, he's gonna have a big scene initially, I'm assuming. I would show I'd be shocked if he didn't. So he's having a big scene. As soon as he stops, you go in. You say, Oh, y'all done? Do you want to go play a game? No, I hate you, I hate you. Say, okay, never mind, walk away. Maybe when he's calmed down again, wait a half hour, then you go over to him again. Remember, I remember what I said earlier? You stay on that high road and keep inviting them up there when he's finished when they're finished the tantrum. So you go back to him again, you say, Oh, you're ready for that game now? Just keep inviting him up to that high road. Just keep doing it. It's showing that you still love him, you're in control of yourself, you know what you're doing, you want to play a game with him, you want to connect with him. It's up to him if he does or not.
SPEAKER_00That's fine. Do you find that children get confused by that when parents start doing that? You know what's funny is maybe a little bit, but they clue into this stuff.
SPEAKER_01I'm always amazed at how quickly kids, because I I understand kids, okay? I don't understand adults as much, but I do understand kids. So this is all done in their language. They get it way quicker than the parents do, way faster. They, it doesn't mean that they're easy going into it, but they understand all this. They like rules and and structure and routines, and they under and they also need crave and want a leader. Once you provide leadership for them, they tend to melt right into it. Okay, but you're if you've got history of not being a leader, they're gonna fight you back for a while. You're gonna have to pay back for you not being a leader. That's just part of it, okay? But if I went in, I always say to parents, what if I went in and I had your kids for a whole day? What do you think they'd be like with me? Most parents say, well, they'd probably be pretty good. That's because I'm level 10 at this, because I invented all this stuff. Plus, I have no history to erase, okay? So it is gonna be a bit of a struggle initially.
SPEAKER_00The next one is I've been a listener for a year and have used tons of your strategies with my toddler. I work with troubled kids and teens
and naturally have used most of your methods before I knew you existed and saw amazing results with the kids I worked with, which is why I was 100% on board with you when I heard of you. I've never had to experience anything with babies or toddlers until my own, and holy crap, I was blown away at how different it is. My daughter was an angry baby, hated everything, now she's 33 months and very energetic and full of life. She has big tantrums and she hits, but I handle the behavior calmly. I'm a single mom and she has three older brothers with her dad. She spends most weekends with them, and I feel like my leadership starts over every Sunday evening. She's defiant and has tantrums until Wednesday. Then everything's back to baseline. We're happy, following routines, and have so much fun, and then Friday evening hits again. I don't insert myself into what they do on the weekends, but is there anything I can do with when I get her back to shorten the adjustment time period?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and such a good question because you do have to reset. And whenever I was working with kids, I had a reset period with them. As sometimes it got shorter and shorter as I worked with them longer and longer. Um, but because they usually relax into the leadership, they're usually relieved when they see a leader coming because it brings out the best in them and it's the least resistance to be with a leader. I know that sounds crazy because they tend to want to please you, but they don't have to fight anymore. When they're up against a leader, they just feel like they're more in control of themselves. It's just the way it works. But there is a reset, and I worked with kids. That's a pool story. That kid in the pool story, um, I worked with him. That was my reset, um, you know, he with him. So um anyway, yeah, the reset could be uh it's hard to do, it's not foolproof, but it could be as something as simple as a song. And it could be that's the reset, now you're with mom. It uh by the way, music, I'm not a psychologist or anything, but music has some it has some different effect on the brain. So if you pick a song that means now you're with mom, but it's something that's soothing that they really like, that you sing together, it can literally help the reset and the transition. So it could maybe shorten the distance between her, you know, trying to hang on to dad's um, you know, res sort of let stuff go, I'm assuming, right? So yeah, it might help. But music has a different effect on the brain, evidently. It puts them in a different zone because music can really affect our moods, like with us. Think about it. If you hear a happy song, you like your favorite song, you tend to get happy. It's kind of like that. Um, now whether or not it now I would go either way, it might be a calm, soothing one, or it might be a happy one. You said she's very active, she might be reset by an active one or a calm one. You'll have to figure that out. Whatever song, I'd try a few different songs though. And and only sing that during the transition. Only when you pick her up, never any other time. Unless she sings it. Let her, she can sing it as much as she wants, but only sing it during the, it'll become the transition song.
SPEAKER_00I also want to point out is that this person did note that it's very different working with children versus having your own.
SPEAKER_01It is, and yet that's where I learned all this was working with kids. And I always say I kind of felt like I was mothering them. The difference is that I only worked one-on-one with kids. So when I was with them, I always felt very strongly that I was kind of the mother role with them. So I kind of parented them in a way. I've never worked with groups of kids. That's different. I couldn't do it. That's different. Um, because I'm very maternal and motherly, so that's a different kind of a role, is in groups. So maybe you worked with groups. And by the way, anyone who works with problem teenagers, good for you. That is that is so hard. I've done it. It is so hard. And boy, I never knew I had patience until I worked with them, I'll tell you. They tried me. They uh it was really challenging until I figured it out. But anyway, good for you. But yeah, your own kids, it's different because it's personal, okay? That's the big difference. A lot of my clients are teachers, principals, child psychologists. Do you know? I've never had a youth worker though, as a client. A youth worker usually works with troubled kids in school. Um, so but I've never had not that I know of, I've never had a youth worker hire me for coaching. Um, I don't know why that is, but I assume it's because if you can work with troubled teens, you don't need my help. But yeah, it's still, it is still different though. It's still different. Um, yeah, so yeah, that I I guess that you know when I'm hired by teachers, principals, and child psychologists, they're not embarrassed anymore because they're used to me like talking like this, like that that's very common. But they used to be. Imagine how embarrassing it is if you're a child psychologist and you have your own kid and a two-year-old's driving you insane. But it's personal, it's just different. I couldn't do their jobs, I have no qualifications for any of that. Totally admire them and their work. I couldn't do what they do. But parenting is personal. They you feel very like they're a reflection of you, okay? So everything they do, you take personally. You don't do that when you're working with kids usually. I did though. Um, if I was working with a kid and they acted out under my care, I always thought, what am I missing here? What am I doing wrong? I always took it very personally. And that's just the way I chose to operate. Um, but yeah, generally it's the difference between a business relationship and a personal relationship.
SPEAKER_00Okay, the next one is Serenity from the United States. I have a 19-month-old son who very much a tantrum thrower, especially
in public, like at the grocery store or anywhere that has an open space, if that makes sense. And he doesn't like to hold my hand and he hates sitting in the cart and starts crying and throwing a tantrum. But if I let him out of the cart, he runs away and doesn't like to listen to me. How can I get him to start holding my hand or getting him to stay in the cart? I try to distract him and that doesn't work. Should I ignore his tantrums in public too, or address them? He's also having trouble sitting in restaurants and wants to walk around and run around. I've tried to bring a bag of different toys for him to play with at the restaurant, and that doesn't seem to really hold his attention. We also include him in our conversation. That doesn't really help either. Please give me advice.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, you've already trained him uh to do this. And the reason is that sometimes you'll let him walk beside the cart, sometimes you'll put him in the cart. You have to be 100% consistent. My kids didn't even know that you could walk beside the cart until they were like three. They had no clue. They thought when you go to a supermarket, you sit in the cart. They had no idea that there was any other option. Even if they saw other kids walking, they still knew that when they were with mom, they were gonna sit in that cart.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why we didn't maybe think that, like, oh wait, mother doesn't sit in a cart. Not everyone has to sit in a cart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you also didn't drive a car and you knew that it's true. Yeah, so they did know the difference between adults and kids. But anyway, yeah, you've trained him. So you once you've given them freedom, you can't expect them not to fight you. So your inconsistency is what he's feeding off of. Also, you said when you go to restaurants, and okay, I'll get in get into the supermarket tantrum a bit more in a second. But also you go into restaurants, does he get up at home? A lot of parents think, you know, they let their kids have all this free walking around with food, which I think is disgusting. But anyway, I would never let a kid walk around my home with food. Um, so yeah, if they're allowed to get up at home, why on earth should you expect them to be any different in a restaurant? So a lot of parents think, well, have different have a different personality when we go out. You want to be the same parent and you'll have the same kid no matter where you are. If they're acting out at home and they're they're running around during eating during dinner time, of course they're gonna do that in a restaurant. Of course that you've trained them to do that. You can't expect them to have different personalities. Now, also, a lot of the reason why they're worse when you're out is because you're different. Back to the supermarket. Whenever I took my kids supermarket shopping, I'm very fair and reasonable with kids too. I don't expect a kid just to sit in a cart while I'm shopping because we had to do it a lot, and I just think that's kind of unfair and mean. So what I had was I had a uh goodie bag and I called it the supermarket goodie bag. And every time we went shopping, they sat in the cart and this goodie bag sat perfectly in their lap. It opened up sort of both ends at the top and it opened up and they could reach in. They always had a drink and a snack and some little toys, like just from the dollar store or something, that they'd never seen before, because I rotated them, so they forgot they had them. So I was always rotating that goodie bag. It always had different stuff in it. Plus, they're like eye level with me, so we were chatting. Plus, I never let them help with groceries. When you give a kid a Kleenex to throw in the back, they're gonna have a tantrum in the pickle jar aisle. Why can't I throw pickles in the back? They don't understand that. Your inconsistency is often you're training them to act out. You're not being fair and reasonable to them. I made sure they had something to do, they had the goodie bag. I was talking to them, so it was a bonding thing, right? Connecting with them. And also I never let them help because if you ever let them help, they'll always want to help. They'll want to throw eggs in the back. It's your inconsistency. You're you're messing them up and you just don't even realize it. You let them walk sometimes, then sometimes in the cart. Of course, he's confused. The poor kid, he's confused. And then at the restaurant, like I said, pretty sure you don't make he doesn't just sit still at home for a meal. Because he would, if he did, my kids didn't know you could get up during a meal. They had no concept. They thought if you eat, you're sitting at a table, and that's it. So it because I there was never any exceptions. Okay, it's the exceptions and the inconsistency is what's going on there.
SPEAKER_00The next one is Nalan from Turkey. How to deal with twin tantrums at 19 months. One hits, I separate them, they both cry. Take the toy, both
upset.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So you want to set okay, there's two different things going on here. So they're fighting and then they're tantruming, two different things. But okay, so you wanna with twins, it's really difficult by the way, with twins because they want the exact same things. When they're different ages, they often want different things. You either have two of something or you're facilitating stuff and you're showing them how to play. Also, always have different stuff out. Like literally, rotate the toys all the time. If you're pulling different stuff out every single day, like literally rotate all the toys, put everything away and every single day pull out maybe five different toys and you splay them out. They might have duplicates or whatever. They're looking at different stuff. They are far less likely to fight. You are training them how to get along, okay, at 19 months old. So that I'm just gonna go on, I'm gonna stop there because the tantrums I've already covered and the siblings fighting. I'm telling you how to potentially prevent that in future. But once they are a bit older and they start fighting, I've got lots of videos on sibling rivalry and kids fighting. But I'm just addressing the showing something different every single day. We'll teach them, it'll just it'll take their attention away from each other and more into the toys that they're looking at. It doesn't have to be expensive toys, it's just all the same old stuff that you've had forever, but you're rotating it. If they only see something maybe once a month, it's gonna be brand new to them because they're a month older, a month more developed. They're gonna play with it differently. Also, save all the old toilet rolls and paper towel holders and then tape them all together, make tunnels. They can shoot things through those tunnels. They love my kids love stuff like that. I was always inventing something, something. And then also have activity times. Say, okay, now it's play-doh time. Let's pack everything up. Um, we're gonna get out the play-doh, sit them in two different seats so they can't touch each other, right? So then give them each the exact same amount of play-doh and have the same play-doh toys or whatever. So, yeah, have activities, have routines.
SPEAKER_00Okay, we have one final question. So, Stephanie from Japan. I have a six-month-old son, and I'm trying to learn ahead of time how to handle
toddler tantrums
in a healthy way. From what I understand, a lot of parenting specialists recommend very few words, staying calm and present without over-engaging, modeling breathing, redirecting when possible, and then offering comfort once the tantrum has passed. The idea seems to be that toddlers don't yet have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. So when they're dysregulated, they're essentially in fight or flight and they need help through co-regulation. For the most part, I think your advice aligns with that. The one part I'm trying to understand better is what happens after the tantrum ends. In one of your podcasts, I remember you advising parents not to soothe or comfort the child after the tantrum's over, because it can unintentionally reward the behavior and encourage more tantrums. Instead, you suggested asking in a positive tone, are you done? and we're redirecting their attention. That's the only place where I've noticed a difference from your advice I've heard. So I'm wondering if I may be understanding the nuance. Can you please speak a little bit more about how you think about soothing versus rewarding a tantrum?
SPEAKER_01Boy, that was well written, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00That was so well written. And that was not well articulated by me. I know I butchered some words.
SPEAKER_01The whole time I'm listening, I think, gee, that was well written. Well done. Okay, um, I kind of I was so busy listening to what they were saying. Okay, I don't ignore tantrums when they're babies. Okay, they're babies up till about 16 months old. I redirect. Okay, I don't ignore a tantrum when they're a baby. But after that, now you said about the soothing and the connecting. Soothing is, oh, come here, give me a hug. That's soothing. That's when you're kind of almost rewarding the tantrum, like you felt bad about it. Whereas I will pat them on the back, say, you're all right. So they want, I need a hug after a tantrum. This is 16 months or 18 months and older, right? When they're in the toddler stage, because they're a baby under that age. So then when they're in that zone, I need a hug. I would pat them on the back, you're all right. Let's go read a book. You see that tone? That tone is very, very, very important. Let's go read a book. And then you can sit and read. And I've said this before, you can sit and read a book, they can climb into your lap. Now you're not instinct, you're not soothing them, but now they can have some cuddles if they still need it. Oftentimes they don't even need it after that, okay? Your energy, your tone is your narrative, the their tone of voice is so important. You're all right. Let's go read a book. I'll give you a really good example of this. If I was carrying on because I was upset about something, my dad was a pleaser, my mom was a leader. And if I was upset about something, I would have said, I want that. And my dad would have said, What do you want, sweetie pie? Come on, let's let's help you. And I got worse and worse and worse. He was in the zone with me. My mom would have said, You're all right. Well, come on over here and help me get this done. And I instantly stopped and it calmed me. Write down. It was my mom's energy. It was like she's not going to entertain that crazy stuff. Whereas my dad was trying so hard to soothe me and help me, but he was making it worse. My mom was, Come on over here. You're all right. Come and help me bake this cake. And I was like, okay. See the difference? It's connecting. Not she didn't say, Oh, sweetie pie. My dad was trying to soothe me. My mom was like, You're all right. She was in charge of the energy. Very good at it.
SPEAKER_00I think that that was a really great question, though. And I think that that is one of the big differences that I see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was a great question, plus well articulated. Okay, well, that was it for the questions.
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is a bit of a hairy topic, and I can understand why people think that I'm being mean, but ignoring tantrums. I'm not going to change that wording. I've been using that same
wording for 54 years. I am ignoring the tantrum, but I'm not ignoring the kid. I'm right there. I need to be, I'm nearby. I don't leave them. I'm right there. So I'm not ignoring the kid, I'm ignoring the tantrum. Okay? I'm right there. Okay, and they know that. They learn after the first tantrum, they start to get it. Parents struggle with this stuff. Kids don't. They lean into it. I speak their language. I just understand kids. I just always did, and I hope I always do. I just get it. When I'm saying whenever I see them doing something, I can almost always read their minds. I know what they're thinking, I know what they're going through. They're they're pretty transparent. They don't hide much. Adults are harder, right? We can mask more. Kids don't. You can see it all over their face. They're they're frantic. They're trying to drag you into it. They don't know what else to do. But I'm right there. I am providing them with calm leader to join. Okay? All they have to do is join me. That's all they have to do. I'm right there. So I don't ign, I don't leave them alone, but I certainly do not, I do not give that tantrum any attention whatsoever because it doesn't need it. Any attention is fertilizing it. You're just going to make it grow.
SPEAKER_00And I know that this is quite a long episode, but I think that we don't have like a set specific time for our episodes because I don't want to stretch out an episode that we just don't have anything more to add. Whereas this, boy, you had a you had a lot to add.
SPEAKER_01Plus, you never know when I'm going to go off on a tangent. So, and we don't want to miss out on those. Some of them are juicy, some of them are maybe just annoying. But anyway, so yeah, we don't know how long a podcast is going to go. Plus, I never know what we're going to be talking about. I don't operate that way. I need to be surprised. Um, like if I knew what we're going to be talking about, then I'd think maybe I should plan something and I don't do that. But anyway, I hope you understood what I'm saying. I really believe in this. I've been doing it for 54 years and it's worked beautifully with all the hundreds of kids I've worked with, a couple I've raised. Um, so yeah, it works because I I'm right there and they're looking at you. They're not listening to you anyway. They're watching you. My calmness calms them down. Okay, well, I think that is a great place to end. Okay, we'll be back again soon talking about another parenting topic. Happy parenting.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for tuning in. If you're ready to dive deeper, check out Bratbusters.com to learn more about the behavior board, parenting courses, and private 101 coaching with Lisa. If you've enjoyed the show so far, we'd love it if you could take a moment to follow, rate, and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more parents just like you. The information provided in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Lisa is a parenting coach, mom, and grandmother. She is not a licensed psychologist or counselor. Her services do not replace the care of psychologists or other healthcare professionals. For a full disclaimer, please visit Bratbusters.com forward slash disclaimer.