Okay, today's question is Rachel from Israel. My kids are eight and six years old. We managed to prevent most of the hitting and swearing at home thanks to you. My question is: where do you draw the line between attitude and hurtful words? For example, is the phrase annoying mom considered hurtful and should it get a consequence? Or should it be ignored?
SPEAKER_01Welcome to a mini episode of the Bratbusters Parenting Podcast. I'm Lisa Bunnage. I'm a parenting coach, mom, and grandmother.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Amy Bunnage, Lisa's daughter, and I handle the marketing and planning here at Bratbusters. Let's get into the episode.
And that is a tough one because calling you annoying mom is name-calling. Um, I I put, okay, there's the attitude I never address, but name-calling and bad words I will address. Like uh annoying mom, that's almost name-calling. I I'll let you make that call. Do you think that's name? How do they use it? Do they say it like, oh, you're just annoying mom? Then I wouldn't address it. That's attitude. But if they say, oh, annoying mom, then I would say, you know what? I think that's name-calling. So we're gonna have a consequence. Yeah, it's the way it's used. That's so nuanced, though. It's very nuanced. A whole bunch of stuff is nuanced. The further I go along in coaching, like some people will hire me 50 to 100 times, right? It gets more and more niche and nuanced, and there's lots of exceptions. You know, sometimes you just got to use your own judgment. Sometimes I'll tell them one thing with one kid and something completely different with another, the further we get along, right? You know, and I get to know them and their kids. So, you know, but I just keep it really general, black and white, when I'm, you know, like when I'm talking on a podcast or whatever. But that one is more nuanced for sure. It's how it's used. What context is it used in? Oh, you're annoying, mom. That's attitude. Ignore it. Nothing you can do about it. Attitude is something that'll go away once you're a leader, and it happens organically. You never address a bad attitude. Their bad attitudes means that they don't respect you, which means you're not a leader. So it's your fault. Don't worry, you're blaming them for their bad attitude when it's actually your fault. You always want to take the blame for that, even if it isn't your fault, take the blame anyway. I always say you take the blame for their bad behavior, and then later on, once you're a leader, you can take the credit for their good behavior. Okay. So you can you want to do both. You want to set yourself up as a leader. Okay. So, but yeah, but if she says, Oh, there we go, there's annoying mom again. So that's when I'd say, you know what? Calling me annoying mom is name-calling. So here's your consequence.
I'm wondering, let's say that they say that, but let's say they mutter it under their breath. And let's say that it's it's in that blurry territory of you may have heard it, but you may not have. Do you think that you need to address it if you heard it?
SPEAKER_01I'd ignore it because it is, it is uh on the it's on the fence, that one. So, but if it wasn't, if they just said stupid or something like that, like stupid face or something. Um you know what's really common, uh, bad name that kids call their parents is poopy face. I always find that funny. Kids who've never met all over the world, a really common bad name they call their parents is poopy face. I always find that funny. Anyway, um, so yeah, if they say it under their breath because it is sort of on the fence, I just ignore it, treat it like it's attitude. But if they say it right to your face, like, oh, you know, then I would definitely call them on it.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
Do you find that children tend to start using more of this like attitude as they get older?
SPEAKER_01No, it's just manifests itself differently. It usually kicks in at around three. Three is the fork in the road. Three is when they stop and think, do my parents know what they're doing or not? In other words, do I have leaders or not? In other words, am I in charge or are they? That's when they either get easier or more difficult. Or some kids are just really easygoing anyway. But generally that's when they start, they stop and think, right? And they realize what's going on. So yeah, that's when you'll start to see the attitude. You know why? Their attitude, their bad attitude towards you is just a signal to you that they don't respect you. It's a tell. It just means they don't respect you. And you gotta work for that. You gotta earn it. You know, when I was working with kids and troubled teens, I worked, I worked for that respect. I earned it. Okay, and I worked, I really had to work hard sometimes, but I never expected it. I worked for it. I didn't demand it, I commanded it. So that's what you have to do. Remember, their added, their bad attitude is on you past the age of three. Under that, nah, they're just toddlers, they're just testing
stuff out.
SPEAKER_00So, in this case, how would you go about getting that respect? Because they did mention in the question that the hitting and the swearing at home has um been prevented. So, how do you continue to approach this?
SPEAKER_01They said the hitting and swearing. I would put the swearing and the name calling in the same department. So I would just put down a no bad words or no name calling, and I would change the behavior board if you're using a behavior board and just say that that includes if you call me annoying mom, then that's name calling. That would be like calling someone stupid mom or stupid, it's name calling. So yeah, just make it more clear, that's
all.
SPEAKER_00So that's focusing on the bad behavior, but you do often talk about the fact that really with calm leadership, that's just such a small part.
SPEAKER_01The discipline is what I get asked about all the time, but that's not what I'm teaching really. I'm teaching you how to connect with your kids, and it's always done in their world, okay? And parents get this wrong a lot. They connect with what kids are good at um or what the parents are proud of, which is a big mistake. Let's and I've known I've heard this many, many times with parents. Well, you know, I tried playing piano duets with her because she's so good at the piano. She's leveled this, you know, she's gonna go to Julian's School of Arts or whatever, I don't know what it's called, Juilliard's School of Arts or whatever. You know, she's so talented. But then I'll find out, I say, well, is she happy when she's playing? Oh no, we always have to bribe her to get her to play. So you're not, you don't connect over things that they don't that doesn't bring them joy. You connect over what brings them joy. It might be rolling in the mud. I mean, it it's not always something that you're proud of or that you like doing. But whatever makes them laugh, giggle, make feel good about themselves, that's where you connect. And you want to connect with your kids in in their world always. You never want to try and raise them up to your level. Like you don't want to connect in your adult world. It's always in their world. And you want to find a way to enjoy it too. It's hard when they're little with a lot of people because they don't really enjoy two-year-olds, right? Which I understand. Um, but as they get older, it usually gets easier. And you can usually find something that you both enjoy. So it could just be a game, it could be um watching some movie that you both like, maybe the music that you both like, could be going to a theme park together, um, just stuff that you can both enjoy together, but it's got to be in their
world.
SPEAKER_00Are there any other traits or things that you should be really focused on with calm leadership? Like, do you think consistency is important?
SPEAKER_01Well, no yelling, no showing anger, disappointment, or frustration. All those things make them feel bad. And when they feel bad, they do bad. When they feel good, they feel they do good. You want your kids to feel good about themselves when they're with you, and you're gonna get the best of them. If you make them feel bad, you're gonna get the worst of them.
SPEAKER_00Do you want to go into that a little bit more?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so parents often want their kids to feel bad when they've done something bad. That is a really big mistake. It's okay if they're mad because they got a consequence. Nothing wrong with that. But you don't want them ever to feel bad about themselves for making a mistake. Because I don't think you should feel bad about yourself for making a mistake, unless obviously you've hurt someone, that's different. But and and even with them, even if they've hurt someone, you still don't want them to feel bad because they're kids, right? They're learning. You want them to learn from their mistakes. You want them to see you making mistakes and having amends and having consequences for your own mistakes. And you don't want, you don't want to look like you feel horrible because you made a mistake. You know what? We're all human, we're all messy, we all make mistakes, and that's okay. We just want to teach our children to be accountable for their own mistakes. I always, it was very important to me that my kids felt they were in control of their own lives. I never tried to micromanage them. They knew the rules, they knew the boundaries, and it was up to them if they follow them or not, or if they do their homework or not. I have no memory of ever telling my kids to get ready for school, do their homework, or go to bed. They knew they had to get ready for school, they knew they had to do their homework and they knew they had to go to bed. They, but they knew if they didn't do those things, mom would come in with a consequence. No anger, just yeah, you messed up. Here's your like there's no shame in messing up. Parents want to shame their kids all the time. Big mistake. You just want to treat uh a bad behavior as something to learn from, like a lesson. And you don't talk about it. You just have a consequence. The lesson is the consequence, not all the nagging and the mini therapy sessions and all the bringing it up again and again and all the shaming and blaming and bullying. None of that is appropriate at all as a leader. Leaders are very calm, they bring out the best in kids, not the worst.
What are your thoughts if the child does automatically feel shame for their behavior? How do you approach that as a parent?
SPEAKER_01Well, let's say they did something really stupid, right? And they were very ashamed of it. I would say, okay, well, that was stupid. Uh, do you want to hear what I did when I was your age? Or do you want to hear what I did yesterday? Like I would talk about something stupid I did and say, Yep, life's full of life's full of boomies, and you just made one, I've made them, everyone's gonna make them, okay? Here's the consequence. See, I would bring up something I did. Are you trying to give them a little bit more life perspective with that? Absolutely. Like, yeah, that was stupid. I say it like it is too. I don't mix words. As you know, I didn't, did I? I say, yeah, that was stupid. You want to hear what I did? We all do dumb things, and it makes it feel like it's okay to be human. It's okay to make mistakes. It doesn't make you a bad person. Parents want to almost make their kids feel like a bad person because they feel if they make them feel bad, then they'll want to be good. You're doing it wrong. If they feel bad, they'll they'll want to be bad. That'll become their identity. Where you put your focus, where you put your energy is what grows. Yeah, if my kids did something stupid, I would have no problem saying that was stupid. But then I'd quickly follow it up with something dumb I did.
SPEAKER_00You definitely would. And to be honest, I would say that that approach helped me growing up because I didn't feel like you were hiding your feelings with it, but I also felt like things can feel like they're the end of the world as you're growing up.
SPEAKER_01I didn't want my kids to feel that way. I wanted them to think, you know what? Yeah, I did mess up, but so did the neighbor, so did my mom, so did my dad, so did so did the dog. Like it's okay to make mistakes. In other words, it's okay to not be perfect.
SPEAKER_00And I think that that has helped me. Now, again, I'm not perfect, but it's helped me in my adult life, where if I come through challenges, which we all have different challenges, it's made me realize a little bit more perspective that, you know, life isn't meant to be perfect.
SPEAKER_01That you know what they say that it's our flaws that bond us to people. It's your flaws are what make you vulnerable and kind of likable and relatable. So I never wanted to set myself up to look perfect. And I certainly my kids didn't think I was. They though I was a pretty good leader and I was fun. Um, but I didn't want to set up the example of being perfect. I think that's ridiculous. Nobody's perfect. Anyone who thinks they are, we're all laughing at you because nobody is. Nobody's perfect. That's ridiculous. Who'd want to be perfect? Who'd want to be around a perfect person? How boring. It is our flaws that kind of make us more human and relatable and likable.
SPEAKER_00And I would assume that as well as striving for that perfection, that would feel like a never-ending, like an impossible task.
SPEAKER_01And then you're never good enough,
right? And this is funny. I remember years and years ago, I made a Christmas dinner and I undercooked the turkey. And uh so, and then someone said to me later, Oh, oh, were you upset about that? And I said, The day I cry over a raw turkey is the day I have my head examined. You know, that's the one Christmas we've talked about year after year after year. It was funny. It was just funny. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. That's I'm human, I make mistakes. Um, yeah, so it's it's our flaws that actually make us more endearing to other people. Not the ones that hurt other people, but there's the silly stuff that we do. It's the it's what actually makes us more approachable, vulnerable, and likable to other people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my mom's not saying go out and be mean to everyone and be like, well, Lisa told me that making mistakes is fine.
SPEAKER_01Those are mean, those are nasty. That's different, okay? But kids are allowed, you give kids a pass with that, by the way. You still don't want them to feel bad for being mean to people. They will eventually learn. But as adults, we we want to cut that out. But they're still kids, though, okay? They're still gonna make a lot of mistakes that that aren't appropriate, right? Like being hurtful and bullying. They're gonna try stuff sometimes, not all of them. Um, but yeah, you do want to train them out of that, but you still don't want them to feel bad for it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I think that's a great place to end. I feel like that went in a few different directions there.
SPEAKER_01I don't even know where we started. Anyway, okay. Well, you always know what we're doing. I never do. Okay, thanks so much for joining us. I'm back again soon talking about another parenting topic. Happy parenting.
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