Pittman and Friends Podcast
Welcome to Pittman and Friends, the curiously probing, sometimes awkward, but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman - that’s me - and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear.
This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County Government, so don’t expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government - of, by, and for the people.
Pittman and Friends Podcast
Carl Snowden on History, Activism, and Hope for the Future
Join Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman for a compelling conversation with Carl Snowden, a prominent author, activist, and community leader. Discover how Carl's early life on a Maryland farm, where he witnessed racial injustices, ignited his lifelong commitment to civil rights and propelled him to influential roles in government and with the Caucus of African American Leaders. Through Carl's powerful stories from his youth, listeners gain a deep understanding of the roots of his activism and the significant impact of his work across local and state levels.
The episode takes you through the spirited student activism of the 1970s in Annapolis, revealing how black students' demands for representation led to meaningful policy changes. Learn about the collaboration with the NAACP that led to the adoption of body-worn cameras for police officers, transforming perspectives on police-community relations. Reflecting on historical milestones like the establishment of Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday as a national holiday, the discussion extends to future societal challenges and hope for the next generation. With storytelling at its core, this episode promises an insightful journey through past struggles and future aspirations.
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Welcome to Pittman and Friends. The curiously probing, sometimes awkward but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman -that's me- and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear. This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County, so don't expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government of, by, and for the people. I am here today with the Honorable Carl Snowden, author, activist, former alderman, former almost former mayor uh-huh, former director of the Maryland Civil Rights Office under Doug Gansler, Attorney General Doug Gansler and aide to both County Executive Janet Owens and Governor Paris Glendening.
Steuart Pittman:Welcome, welcome. Thank you for the invitation. All right, can I call you Carl, please do. Okay, you can call me Steuart, that's what we do. You can call me Steuart, that's what we do. So I just want to note that, even though you have all those formers with your name and all these things that you've done inside and outside government, I believe that you are more influential today as the convener of the Caucus of African American Leaders than I would. I don't really know, but I think than you've ever been that your ability to influence what's going on at the city, the county, and the state level is really pretty extraordinary and as an old community organizer, that's a compliment. You're working things from behind the scenes and that's what I want to talk to you about is some of that work. So why don't we start with, tell the listeners, tell the listeners how you, even as a young person, got involved in activism, and don't forget the part about getting kicked out of Anne Arundel County Public Schools and ending up at Key School, if you would.
Carl Snowden:Steuart, there is, if you ask an African-American, when did he recognize that race played a factor in one's life? One would think that people would automatically assume from the moment he grew up, but that's not necessarily the case. I grew up in Davidsonville, Maryland. I grew up on a farm.
Steuart Pittman:I've been there Me too.
Carl Snowden:I had a friend whose name was Tommy, and Tommy was this incredible guy. Him and I were inseparable. When you haven't grown up on a farm, you know. The forest or the woods was your playground, and what a playground we had Amazing. You'd get on a log and that log could become a spaceship. You could put some twigs or sticks between your legs and it'd become your horse. You were only limited by your imagination, and when I was growing up maybe I was six or seven, five or six, seven, something like that I remember working on the farm with Tommy's father.
Carl Snowden:His name was Mr. Marshall and Mr. Marshall was this kind of guy who didn't say much, but when we spoke you listened at a commanding experience and Tommy and I uh loved growing up on that farm. We were inseparable. Tommy loved his father, he just loved his father. His father was a big, strong man, six feet five inches tall, and we would see him cut wood. He had the ability to be able to take calf, put it on his shoulder. This man was an incredibly strong man In those days. To plow up the field, you didn't do it with a tractor, he had a wooden plow he would put on his back and plow up the field and his vocation and advocation was the same hard work. God, he was an incredible guy. One day Tommy and I were playing in the woods, as we had done so many times before, and Tommy had told me at one point that his father was stronger than Superman, and in my age at that time I didn't think anybody was capable of being stronger than Superman. Then Tommy told me his father could beat my father, and I never conceded, but he probably could. Mr Marshall was an incredible man.
Carl Snowden:One day Tommy and I were playing, as we had done so many times before, and I did not know what a sharecropper was. Tommy's father was a sharecropper. We were playing and all of a sudden the man who owned the property that Tommy's father lived in came toward us and he was angry. You could just see it, and in the old days you may recall, people would put snuff in their mouth and you'd chew it tobacco and you'd spit tobacco out as you're walking. So this guy's walking along, he's got this tobacco in and he's just angry and we could sense it. We knew something was wrong, but in those days you could not interfere in the adult business, just didn't. But Tommy and I was curious as to what was going on. So we ran ahead of this man and hid in some bushes so we could see him. But he couldn't see us.
Carl Snowden:And this man arrives at Tommy's father's house. He starts knocking on the door real loud. Tommy's father is in the house, but it's Tommy's mother that comes to the door and the man says where's Marshall? And she says he's sick. He's sick, boss, he can't come to work today, he's sick. And the guy just goes in, brushes aside, the mother goes inside and there's this cacophony of sound. It didn't take a long time, but it seemed like forever.
Carl Snowden:It's a bright August summer day. Out walks Mr. Marshall, followed by his employer, and Mr. Marshall has no shirt on, he has no shoes on, just a pair of pants, and he is telling Marshall you either come to work today or I want you off my land, out of my property. And Mr. Marshall is trying to protest and he takes his hand, he shoves Mr. Marshall, catching him off balance, and as he falls down in this dust he spits on him that tobacco spit. For me. For that moment everything stopped. I thought sure I would see this cacophony. I was on the brink of seeing this incredible violence. I saw how strong Mr Marshall was. I know what power he had.
Carl Snowden:But Mr. Marshall did something I have never forgotten and as I tell it to you today, I can remember it just as if it was yesterday. Mr. Marshall says I said sorry, boss, please don't fire me, I need my job. And as he's getting up because the man says if you want your job, then come on, get up, get on to work. So as he's getting up he catches Tommy and I because we're hiding behind these brushes. He sees us, Tommy's crying profusely, and so am I. And Mr. Marshall looks at Tommy, his son, and I Don't say a word and start following this man to his place of employment. And Tommy just started running.
Carl Snowden:To this day I can't tell you where he ran to. I ran too. I went home to my mother and I tried to explain to my mother what I had just seen. And my mother tried to assure me what I hadn't seen, tried to tell me, tried to clean it up. She didn't want me to be embittered by this experience, and so she was telling us that. You know, Mr. Marshall works for this guy and was trying to explain it. But when you're five or six years old, this man, Marshall, who was extraordinarily strong, looks so weak.
Carl Snowden:Those who hear this story know of the sociology of the times, and they'll try to explain. Well, this is before the Civil Rights Movement. This is when black men had very little option, and they'll try to explain it. But the problem is, the sociology of the times will not explain that to a little boy who had so much respect for his father. Tommy never, again, ever, told me that his father was stronger than mine. Tommy's father lost that glint that he once had, that commanding presence.
Carl Snowden:And it was my really first experience with racism and what I saw was undulterated racism. I saw a black man being humiliated in front of his wife, his son and his son's best friend. I saw what it looked like to have someone emasculated and I never forgot that it had an incredible experience. It changed my whole view of everything, because up until that time I lived on the farm and generally any time we saw white people quite candidly in Davidsonville was when we went to Annapolis to go shopping on a Saturday. Everything was self-sustaining. Everything we grew our own food, clothing was made by our parents.
Steuart Pittman:We had no reason, but this was my really first introduction to that form of racism and then fast forward to when you, when you uh ended up going to Key School because you were thrown out. What happened there?
Carl Snowden:Well, um, to appreciate what I'm about to tell you is to understand the times in which we're living. At Annapolis Hi gh School, the old Annapolis High School, they would have assemblies, but the school was so large 1500 students you couldn't have all 1500 students together at the same time. You had to have 500 at a time. You, you had to have three assemblies. So I went to an assembly at Annapolis High School and I'll never forget it.
Carl Snowden:This is in the 70s. I mean, this is the black power movement, this is black consciousness, this is a kind of new militancy in terms of the part of blacks. So we go into the general's, go into the Maryland Hall, and at the Maryland Hall the place is packed and they had a white country band playing. In fact, everybody on the stage was white. And this black student shouted out we want some soul music. And it was loud enough so everybody could hear. And it was loud enough so everybody could hear, and the president of the Student Government Association took the microphone and said this is our assembly. We put this program together. Anybody who don't like what we're doing, you can leave.
Steuart Pittman:And this silence went over. Very well, what percentage you think was was African-American was for me mm-hmm.
Carl Snowden:Fourth, one fourth of the one fourth with black African-American, and maybe it took me ten seconds to realize what he just said is right if you don't like it, they leave. So I got up to leave and in those days at Maryland Hall, when you got up, the seat would flap up. So I'm getting up and I'm leaving and as I'm walking out, flap, flap, flap, flap and 150 students black students followed up to process and as a result of that, we started asking other questions like why don't we have a black studies program? Why isn't black history taught at Annapolis High School? And you've got to appreciate that Annapolis High School was only integrated in 1966. So four years later you had this influx of students black students coming. So four years later, you had this influx of students black students coming, and then we decided to protest, and the protest was we would show up to school and have what we call freedom classes, the cafeteria, and share our experiences.
Carl Snowden:Well, one day the school system decided, after meeting with us, a guy named, a man named Roger Moore who was the mayor of Annapolis, a guy named Satchel Sims and Walter Blassingame came to meet Roger Morris Pip Moyer yes, but more you and they came to meet with us because we've been doing this protest for two weeks at Annapolis High School and they were trying to convince us to go back to class. And Pip Moyer spoke, Sam Gilmore, Walter Blassingame spoke, Satchel Sims spoke, and every time they talked about going back to class, nobody was moving, wouldn't budge. So finally this guy named Walter Blassingame, who was then the education chair of the NAACP, who was then the education chair of the NAACP said if you all go back to class, we can have these problems addressed in the next month. And people said, oh, one month, that's too long, Can't wait that long. So finally he said if you go back to class in two weeks, we'll have the problem solved. And again people were protesting. Two weeks seemed too long, but as I was thinking about it, two weeks didn't seem like a long time, and so I got up and addressed the crowd and said we should go back to class because these promises they made would take place in two weeks. It's why I learned in my generation never trust anybody over the age of 30, because once we went back to class, they didn't implement any of the promises they made.
Carl Snowden:And eventually, when we saw that nothing was happening, we decided to stage a new protest. This would be on the birthday of Abraham Lincoln. That date was chosen for a purpose, so we had this protest that turned into a melee and windows got broken and they called it a riot. The superintendent of schools was a man named Edward Anderson. Fourteen of us got expelled as a result of that demonstration. Another 150 students were suspended, and Dr. Anderson told my mother that as long as I'm superintendent of these schools, your son, Carl, will never go to a public school, and he kept his promise. I never went back to a public school. I wound up going to Key School, which was a private school, thanks in large part by people in the community who literally took up a contribution so I could continue my education.
Steuart Pittman:Okay so you've made a reputation for yourself at that point. Okay, okay so. And then you know we don't have time to go through every. I mean I hadn't heard that full story, especially the part about in the theater, getting up and walking out, but there's a lot of history let's go way, way fast forward to okay, I'm County Executive, the stuff that we've done together, right, and we've been through a lot together.
Steuart Pittman:Um, we've had quarterly meetings with the Caucus. We, we I mean we're we're doing a lot of things, um, I want to get into a few of them, and probably the first one that I thought I thought was a big win was when you got together with NAACP and y'all came up with this idea that young people wrote letters to members of the of the of the County Council. Body worn cameras might actually happen. I had talked about it in the first budget but didn't feel like we had the votes on the council to do it. I hadn't gotten a lot of interest. But then, between that 2019 budget and that well, during the year of 2019 and leading up to 2020, these amazing personal letters came from hundreds and hundreds of students going to all the council members and me with their personal reasons why they think that the officers should have body-worn cameras. And what was the result of that?
Carl Snowden:Yeah, well, we got body-worn cameras, but probably more importantly even, it was really educational. You know, for a long time people literally believed it was between the police officer and a community representative, always believed the police. These body cameras put an end to that. Body cameras actually saw how people interacted with the police and that the police were not always as polite, to say the least, as people portrayed them to. So those body cameras really was revolutionary because they did two things. One, they allowed people to see the actual interaction and they served to also exonerate police officers, because if someone had alleged that the police officer did x, y, z, you got the body camera. It wasn't there.
Carl Snowden:In fact, there was an example where this happened in Annapolis, but the same concept applied. There was an allegation that a police officer took $1,400 off of a civilian, a local drug dealer, and the local drug dealer made that allegation. The police said it's not true, blah, blah, blah, blah. It turned out that, had it not been for a camera, a video camera at a convenience store that captured the whole thing. You literally see this police officer taking the money literally, even though he had denied ever taking it. An investigation is undertaken. The police officer has to now admit that he did take the money. He said he put it in the trunk of his car and it just disappeared, which meant that the only one that would have access to it would be other police officers. Long story short, he had to resign actually retired, but that's again an example how videos could be very helpful.
Steuart Pittman:Well, it was shocking to me that when those letters started coming in, when those letters started coming in, it was a race between at that time the Republicans were calling themselves the Council GOP. That was a new thing. It was a three-to-four split on the council and they put out a joint letter saying we want body-worn cameras to try to beat the Democrats to it. So it was a race to see who could make it happen faster. And the program has been very popular among police officers Democrats to it. And so it was a race to see who could make it happen faster. And then and the program has been very popular among police officers the state's attorney loves it because she's got evidence to take to court, the truth, transparency and I got to credit those students. I mean.
Steuart Pittman:Later the state of Maryland required all jurisdictions to have body-worn cameras, but this was before that. So it was interesting to me when, after George Floyd's murder, when we had we did a lot of listening sessions and events, one of them was called, I think, Young and Black in Anne Arundel County, and it was all young folks and I heard over and over again that people wanted more education about black history, local black history in Anne Arundel County Public Schools same issue they were talking about when you were in school.
Steuart Pittman:Yeah, and I think that you know there's been some progress, but but at least there's a thirst for knowledge.
Carl Snowden:We're very, very fortunate, very fortunate to have Dr. Mark Bedell as Superintendent of Schools. He's not only a visionary, but he's someone who gets it, and what I like about Dr. Bedell's leadership is he understands in order for students to excel, all students have to excel. He really understands that as a concept. Understand in order for students to excel, all students have to excel. He really understands that as a concept and he's data-driven, focused like a laser beam, and we're very fortunate to have him.
Steuart Pittman:Yeah, I've talked to him about the opportunity gap and the kids that have not been achieving, and trying to get them their scores up and get them engaged in school and um. But he always makes a point of also talking about the high achieving kids and making sure that they achieve even higher and and uh and that to me and he's dealing with parents who who are concerned about their kid. That's all they, you know they care about their own kid and is my child getting as good an education as possible? And and when I think about the county outside of the school system, the whole big picture, I try to, I try to do the same thing that if, if we can, if we can get the folks that are living in poverty, don't have adequate housing, don don't have adequate transportation, literally, or the ALICE population, which is the sort of next level up, which is about a third of our county, living paycheck to paycheck If we can make sure that life is better for them, they're better educated, they have child care, they have the basic things that make them a great workforce, then our whole economy benefits from it. And I go to the bond rating agencies and I say you know, here are the things we're doing to confront poverty, and that's what you should be thinking about, that climate impact, and about whether Anne Arundel County is a good investment over the next 50 years, and so it's interesting to see it in the school system and outside.
Steuart Pittman:But okay, last question, I think no second to last, one more I want to ask you about compromise. So younger people and I'm sure you were when you were younger, impatient, like you said. Four months a month is too long, two weeks is too long, it turned out they were right, because sometimes it's forever. But how do you explain to younger people that sometimes you don't always win everything and you've got to get what you can and you move on? Do you, as the kind of older person, the mentor, have that conversation much?
Carl Snowden:Yeah and again. That's why history is so important. If people understood history, some of the greatest movements that we've had took decades, not days. Decades to take place.
Carl Snowden:Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered in 1968, April of 1968. The first bill to make Dr. King's birthday a national holiday was put in place on April 15, 1968, 11 days after he died, by a man named John Conyers. And every year, every year, they kept putting the bill in, putting the bill in. Every year, every year, they kept putting the bill in, putting the bill in. That bill did not become law until 1983. And who should sign the bill in 1983? Ronald Reagan. And Ronald Reagan was on record as saying he reluctantly signed the bill because at that time a guy named Jesse Helms from North Carolina was calling Dr. King a communist and saying horrible things. The FBI did a smear campaign. But from 1968 to 1983, just time and time again, when you know about the history of Nelson Mandela who, by the way, was honored by the Anne Arundel County Council when he passed he was in prison for 27 years. They didn't have him overnight. So oftentimes what you have to share with people is a sense of history, and that it takes a while.
Steuart Pittman:Okay, okay. So here's the big one, since you talk about history all the time and you go back a ways. You're not that much older than me. Yes, I won't ask all the time and you go back a ways. You're not that much older than me, but I won't ask and this is a question I used to ask my father before he died too, because he would go back in history and talk about it is, I think, the people who have seen the most have the better way to predict the future than the rest of us. So the question is 10 years from now, what do you envision for the county, the state, the country, whichever part you think?
Carl Snowden:Three weeks from now. Okay, it's gonna decide that it's gonna be something called a presidential election. In my lifetime, there's no election that's been more consequential than this election, depending on what happens three weeks from now. We're doing this three weeks before the election, November 5th. People are already casting ballots. Everybody's talking about it's going to be a close election.
Carl Snowden:When I was younger, I thought that I'd be more concerned about things in the past. You hear me often talk about history, but after having children and a granddaughter, I'm more interested in the future, what the future will look like for them, and we have a challenge. I'm not convinced that we will necessarily go forward. There have been parts of our history where we have taken, went backwards, went backwards and had to fight to move forward. This is probably for me, of all elections I've been voting since I was able to.
Carl Snowden:There's no election that I can think of that is so clear what the values are. You know you have a GOP who's very clear with its standard bearer what kind of America it would have and you have a woman who's never held, never been president, no woman has ever served and what that might represent. Real, clear choices, very, very clear choices. And I'll be honest with you I don't know what the future will bring. I'm hopeful, I'm optimistic, but I've also seen in my lifetime things occur. My daughter, my granddaughter, lost her right reproductive rights, something for 50 years we thought was finished business.
Carl Snowden:She lost that I was on with Asha earlier today. We were talking about the whole DEI, where we're going as a society on that particular question. So I think when the election takes place we'll be all in a better position to be able to see where we're going as a nation.
Steuart Pittman:Well, this has been. A fascinating series of stories is really what it is, because you're the storyteller. There's a whole lot of things I want to get to, but there's no way we have time for all of that. I wanted to talk to you about the power of writing, the power of public speaking and how you do that. You've learned a lot of lessons over the years, well thank you again for coming and doing this and for all listeners.
Steuart Pittman:I hope you come back next week and remember to hit the Pittman and Friends subscribe button and see who we've got up next to join us. Thank you.
