Pittman and Friends Podcast
Welcome to Pittman and Friends, the curiously probing, sometimes awkward, but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman - that’s me - and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear.
This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County Government, so don’t expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government - of, by, and for the people.
Pittman and Friends Podcast
Claudia Roll on Being the New Boss at Animal Care and Control
Learn about the future of animal welfare with Claudia Roll, the Director of Anne Arundel County's Animal Care and Control.
Coming to this position with over 30 years of experience, Roll shares her insights on navigating potential changes to Animal Care and Control as a standalone department and ways the County can improve animal welfare through collaboration, marketing, and community outreach. In this episode, you'll also hear more about Animal Care and Control's operation, the shift in shelter management philosophy regarding euthanasia, and much more.
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Welcome to Pittman and Friends. The curiously probing, sometimes awkward but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman, that's me, and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear. This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County, so don't expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government of, by, and for the people. All right, I am here today with Claudia Roll, who is the Director of Anne Arundel County's Animal Care and Control, and welcome. Thanks for having me, you bet.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Let me give a little background, because I didn't just ask Claudia, because she happens to be the Director of Animal Care and Control and we all love animals. But I've been in office for six years now just about six years and every single year, there's a group of people who show up at my budget town halls and they have matching shirts and they are the Friends of Animal Care and Control, and they volunteer at Animal Care and Control and every year they ask for things and I love them because they show up every single one and usually we I mean we do something in the budget each year. I remember it was cat cages one year and, and added a full-time veterinarian was a big one. Now lately they've been asking for a new facility and that's important. And then we have the Animal Matters Commission and we have the Animal Welfare Council, who I've been meeting with over the years, and I think you know, and most people know, that I have a background in horses and horse welfare was really kind of my passion, and so I got to know a lot of animal welfare organizations around the country when I was doing that work.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So this is going to be a fun conversation. I'm excited and I will also say that there have been issues at Animal Care and Control and something that a lot of people don't know is that Animal Care and Control is part of the Police Department. It sure is, it sure is, and the Police Department has never been thrilled about that, nor has Animal Care and Control. So we're going to talk about what's being done and all that, but, um, let me start out by asking you uh, you started on just July 29th, correct? Correct. That's three months, okay, okay, so tell us what you did before that.
Claudia Roll:Before that, I've been in the field of animal welfare for about 30 years. I started as I was a volunteer at the Baltimore Humane Society and way back when and I got hooked. I. I was like this is what I want to be doing. So I was a Humane Educator in Baltimore City for a while, going to schools, and I was a teacher for a few years after college, so it was a really good fit. And then I went to New Mexico. Did you grow up in Baltimore?
Claudia Roll:No no, I settled in Baltimore I grew, grew up outside of Cleveland. Cleveland rocks.
Claudia Roll:Then I moved to New Mexico, managed a mobile spay-neuter clinic we operated most of the year on the Navajo Nation. That was very interesting. And then I was with the Albuquerque Animal Shelters for about five years, decided it was time to head back east and took a job with the Washington Humane Society, which is now the Humane Rescue Alliance, and I was there for about 12 years and at that point it was shelter operations, some spay-neuter operations, and my role grew there. My last role there was as Chief of Staff.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Overseeing 80 people. A staff of 80, right? Yep, about that. I remember from your resume and I also remember from Albuquerque. You did a lot of work, both at the city shelter level, where there were a couple of shelters, I understand.
Claudia Roll:Correct.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:But also for a state organization that was dealing with shelters all across the state.
Claudia Roll:Right yes, I was with a group called Animal Protection of New Mexico, a non-sheltering group. We just had an office. We didn't have animals, but one thing that I did was I would go to shelters throughout the state usually small town shelters that just wanted some help and I would go in and do an assessment and give them some advice and I learned a lot doing that.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:That was one of the things on your resume that really excited me, because it showed that you hadn't only been working on the inside, but you had been looking at the big picture and probably knew a lot about best practices around the state and maybe even the country, and we can talk some about some of those. So you got here, we hired you. We were thrilled, first of all, to have somebody with this much experience. I didn't know there was anybody who, of the 593,000 residents in Anne Arundel County, I didn't know that any of them knew so much about animal care and control. And so and there you were, living in Severna Park and applied for the job and we knew right away that you were the the best applicant, and we're thrilled when you said yes.
Claudia Roll:I was thrilled to say yes. Great, okay.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So you came in and right before you were hired, there were some things in the news. There was a lot of conversation about things not being in good shape at the facility, and I remember going in and interviewing some of the folks that worked at the facility. And we have the volunteers, we have union employees, we have non-union employees, we have the police department overseeing it all, and what I found was that it was because of that there were a lot of factions and people with very different ideas about how things should be done, and so I knew we'd need a strong leader. So you came in and what did you find? How bad were we, or how do we stack up?
Claudia Roll:The sky was not falling. There were definitely some factions, and I think that partially just has to do with a gap in leadership. What I found? An amazing, dedicated staff that really, really takes pride in their work. I mean, they work so hard. And then, alongside with them, a really incredible group of volunteers. We have 100-plus volunteers. I've worked with different volunteer groups at different places. Far and away this group is the best. They're really, really invested, they want to get involved. They're not I don't want to say just walking dogs, because we need our dogs walked, but they're doing so many different things. Some of it's behind the scenes.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:That's kind of extraordinary for a government agency.
Claudia Roll:Yes.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:You know it's part of the, I mean, I always think of a nonprofit shelter as having a lot of volunteers, because it's sort of structured that way. Yeah.
Claudia Roll:And you know, for the most part, both the staff and the volunteers were really happy when I arrived and just wanted to talk about how things were going, both good and not so good. We also have a really strong foster group, really life-saving sending certain animals out to foster, and then so really good stuff happening. But the ceiling is high. We can grow a lot just as far as best practices, how we're organizing ourselves, moving animals through our shelter, there's still, there's a lot to do.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So it's, there's overcrowding, though, right? Yes, it's a tough time for shelters in general. Can you talk about both adoption rates and capacity and all that?
Claudia Roll:It is a tough time for shelters across the country. I don't think any region has escaped it, mm-hmm. I don't think any region has escaped it. Intake of animals has not necessarily gone up. We're really not even quite where it was before the pandemic. During the pandemic, shelters were not getting a lot of animals brought in. People were holding tight to their animals during COVID.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah.
Claudia Roll:Yeah, so you know, post-pandemic. Were they also acquiring animals? Were they? Yes, yeah, they were adopting, right? Yes, we talk about. You know there was a because of so many animals coming in, but adoptions have stagnated. Adoptions are down. So that's the balance that is out of whack. That's just leading animals to be in shelters longer. They're waiting longer for their homes.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Is that because everybody got a pet during COVID and those pets are still there?
Claudia Roll:I really think that pandemic pet boom has something to do with it. Surveys, studies have been done. A lot of people are saying the cost of owning a pet is making people hesitate. Housing restrictions, especially if you want a big dog depending on where you live you might have a problem there.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So there are definitely some barriers.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, okay, yeah, I know that during COVID we I mean we already got a rabbit, well, two rabbits, one guinea pig only, if anybody wants it. I told the kids that when the two guinea pigs died that we could maybe get a cat, but one of the guinea pigs died like two years ago and the other one's still around and of course, two dogs and all of that stuff. But my wife during COVID really thought we needed chickens and we came really close to getting chickens. Fortunately we couldn't find a used chicken coop. But you know the whole, you know COVID and your own food and all of that stuff, oh yeah, but fortunately we didn't. Do you guys take in chickens?
Claudia Roll:We had a rooster a couple of weeks ago that I would hear from across the building and, yeah, we found a rescue placement for the rooster.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I know you had to take in a pig once. Yeah, it showed up at our farm. It was like a stray hog, it was big and and um, and some 4-H kids came over because we couldn't capture it anywhere and they put it in a stall, a horse stall. They, they herded it in and you know they have those boards and stuff that they use at 4-H and uh, and then we got a local farm to take it. But it was a big question about, well, animal care and control can't take pigs in. So fortunately there was a family that did. They said that it was too old to be very tasty, so it was sort of safe and they found it at home. But nice. But let's not talk about farm animals and animal care and control, because that's a whole nother - it sure is - piece of it, but let's get back on the topic. Okay, okay, Okay.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So overcrowding and rates. Is there a solution to that?
Claudia Roll:I think, animal shelters, I think we need to be more creative about how we are, I'll say, marketing our animals. There are more animals available online from breeders, various sources that aren't animal shelters, that are really out there and marketing themselves, and we have awesome animals and we just need to let people know that we have them. I don't know what the exact solution is. Some of it is getting out into the communities with our animals, because some people may not want to come to the shelter. Just the thought of it is kind of daunting for them. So sometimes it takes, you know, sometimes you just have to get the animals out into the community and you have had some that have gone to SPCA, to the mall, correct?
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yes, did they help you? Yes, they have.
Claudia Roll:Yeah, and we we work with different rescue groups as well that really kind of specialize maybe in a certain breed or maybe a senior animal. So we do have different outlets.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, so your relationship is good with SPCA and others. How do you interact as the county animal shelter with the nonprofit organizations that do the work?
Claudia Roll:When we transfer animals to other groups, what it comes down to is relationships. I've been on both sides of it, transferring animals out and also transferring animals into a shelter where I'm working. It's all about trust.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah.
Claudia Roll:If you want a certain dog to go to a rescue group, you tell them everything you know, everything. You know you don't sugarcoat it, and that trust leads to, hopefully, a very active relationship. So we're doing pretty well.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I've noted a few relationships that we should probably build back up. I'm glad to hear you say that because I know there have been. There have been accusations that animals were adopted out without full knowledge about the animal's history, and things like that.
Claudia Roll:It's very important, especially, you know, if it's a if it's a safety issue. Yeah, we need to be honest. We need to be honest with rescue groups, honest with the public.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, yeah. So this might be awkward and we might make a little bit of news here, but when we were in the process of recruiting for your position, I think even when you first came in, and I had met with a lot of the groups that are involved. I had a vision that in order for Animal Care and Control to really fully be a mission-driven organization and to be free to be the best it could be, that it would be better off if it was not a full county agency, not under the police department, but a quasi-nonprofit. The way we have our economic development department is a quasi-nonprofit and Partnership for Children, Youth and Families in this county. We've done a fair amount of that and I thought, well, that could allow it to grow beyond what it has been. But I got pushback when I said that. I got pushback from the union that represents some of the employees. I got pushback from some nonprofits that thought it would be as a nonprofit, it would be a competitor, sure, and then some pushback from people who thought maybe, I'm not, maybe not under a Pittman Administration, because he's clearly an animal lover.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:But you know, who knows the next county executive or the one after that might use the nonprofit status to pull money and say you guys can just go raise your own money. So I asked you to really research these questions and to figure out what you thought was the best practice for the best thing for Anne Arundel County. And you came back and told me I was wrong. Well, I mean, your recommendation was to make Animal Care and Control a department of county government as opposed - its own department - rather than being under the police department and as opposed to being a quasi-nonprofit. Yes, and I immediately said sounds good to me. You know, we're just trying to do the best we can and so that's what we're going to be moving towards. Are we on the right track with that?
Claudia Roll:We are definitely on the right track, really having a standalone department. That's been the trend across the country in different counties, municipalities we tend to be, Animal Care and Control, tends to be a square peg in any other department, police, sometimes health department, yep. So and keeping the animal control piece alive with the animal control, with animal care, because there was talk of leaving the enforcement with the police department, keeping them unified is the best way to go, yeah.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, okay. So let's imagine that we put a bill together to do that, we take it to the County Council and that we get the votes that we need to make that happen, and we have a budget coming up and we have to put money in the budget for this new department. Is there staffing that needs to happen? You won't have the police department doing some of your work for you. What are we going to need to staff this operation out, you think?
Claudia Roll:Well, when I think about our relationship with the police we use their amazing personnel department, and purchasing, IT, there are those aspects that we don't have on our own right now, so we would need to work those things in.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Well, we have those, you know, the county government.
Claudia Roll:That's what I hear.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Everybody loves Personnel and Purchasing and Central Services. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've also been told that over and over and over again, at budget town halls particularly, that we're asking staff to do multiple jobs there already.
Claudia Roll:We are, lean is putting it lightly. I'll just say that. There are some things that we should be doing that we don't have the staffing to do. We're not open to the public the hours that might be convenient for them, because we need staffing to expand those public hours, expand adoption hours, things like that. So the staff's working very, very hard.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So I mean, ultimately I have to make decisions. You will be bringing me a budget request if this goes forward as planned, because you will, rather than go through the police department.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:That was in the very beginning a shocking thing to me that the police department was asked to do the budget request for Animal Care and Control and they prioritize all their budget requests. So it comes at the end, if it comes at all. But I guess the message to those people who show up at budget town halls every year again is show up right.
Claudia Roll:Definitely. Show up, show up - those purple shirts, those volunteer shirts - I'm sure we'll still be there.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, well, I can say to those of you who are listening that wear those purple shirts, uh, and to you and anybody who's interested um, the best is when you coordinate. And there's one, one message, cause at times there's been requests coming from the friends of separate from the request coming from the from you know the agency. So hopefully we can get all that together and and I think that this is the year that we need to get there to staff this operation the way it needs to be, so that we can meet the needs of the the moment and and provide the best care that we can do these animals.
Claudia Roll:Yeah, while they're with us, it's about meeting the needs of the public, but of course we're there for the animals, and having staff for a longer day so there is somebody there with the animals for a longer period of time is really important. We have to name this new department, don't we? I guess we do..
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I mean, we could have it the Department of Animal Care and Control, or it could be Animal Welfare, or it could be... It could be Animal Services. Animal Services, okay, okay, all right, well, exciting things to all do together, not just you and me, but the people out there that are listening. I have to ask you because I've been hearing about this at Budget Town Halls and I've been hearing it when I visit and I've seen some of it that the facility could be better than what it is for the animals, the dogs and the cats that can hear each other. Cats hearing the dogs and you've mentioned narrow hallways and some things like that, and there's also some development of some new buildings there on the campus with the police department, so there's not a whole lot of open space for dog runs and things like that. So give us an honest assessment of the facility and how it compares to others around the country that you see, and what would you like to see in a facility?
Claudia Roll:I've worked in worse. I'll start with that. There are some real issues with the building. We could use more outdoor space, but just inside, how it's laid out, what I would love to see is a lobby. Somebody comes in and a lobby is just more welcoming, maybe a little bigger. It's cramped and tight and sometimes people are feeling a little uneasy when they show up. Anyway, something really welcoming. I mentioned to you last week the hallways. You wouldn't really think about the hallways, but one of the first things I thought on my first day was wow, these hallways are really narrow and they're kind of regular hallways that most people would be used to.
Claudia Roll:But you're maneuvering animals around. You're maneuvering dogs and maybe two people, each with a leash in their hand, has to pass each other. We don't know the dogs all that well. Our intake room is, there is sort of a divider, but the dogs are in the same room with the cats and that is a very stressful time for an animal. They've just been brought to an animal shelter and, as you mentioned, the cats hearing the dogs. Just the layout is very awkward. I am also a fan of at least some of the dog kennels being indoor-outdoor. We have some dogs that maybe they're there because they bit a human and they're not getting walked. If they could at least have that indoor portion of the kennel and then the outside just get that fresh air, it's better for them. So there's things we could.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I've seen better, I've seen more welcoming um yeah, that, and some of them tend to tend to be a little out out in more open space, right where you've got more space for you know more nature.
Claudia Roll:Yeah and I wouldn't advocate for you know a huge, huge shelter. Some people say, oh, all these animals? We just need to build more. We just need to build more. I don't think that. I think we need to manage our population better and get them moving through quicker. But yeah, there's a lot we could do.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And it used to be, I should just note, that it used to be that they moved them through by euthanizing them, right? I mean when there was a...
Claudia Roll:Correct. Yeah.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And we have far less of that than we do.
Claudia Roll:Correct. We are not euthanizing for space, which yeah. Okay, great, yeah, we're not euthanizing adoptable animals.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, good to know. Well, you know, it's amazing how passionate people get about animals, just the way they do about children or anything people really love. And some people say nature, tree huggers, yeah, and so it's kind of normal and healthy I think that we have people, you know, coming to council meetings and to town halls and you know, demanding stuff with some passion.
Claudia Roll:Right and I would say, if you you know, a decade, two decades ago, that wasn't necessarily the case, but the public's expectation of our animal shelters and and how we work has changed and I think it's good.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, um, it's taxpayer dollars yeah, you know I always say that government should be judged not on the size of its tax base or whether it can steal employers and companies from adjacent jurisdictions by offering them something that they aren't, but the health and wellness of its residents. I don't usually say distinguish between human residents and animal residents, and particularly the most vulnerable residents. And I think, I believe, actually post-COVID, that people care more about other people than they did, that they saw poverty, they saw food distribution lines and people's hearts opened up a little bit more. And I know that when it comes to animals, people feel that way that they want to be generous and they want to deliver and they want their government to deliver for the animals. So I'm down for that and really the cost in the big picture is doable. I mean, it's not our most expensive department by any means, right, yeah exactly.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Compared to others. So, yeah, yeah. So if we come back in five years, I won't be county executive, but I'll be like doing my, you know, I don't know, maybe I'll do a Pittman radio show or something, maybe I'll be a reporter or something and I interview you and you're still in the job. Let's assume you're still in the job. I hope so. I hope so too. What will you be reporting? I am hoping that we are well along the way to planning that new facility.
Claudia Roll:That would be awesome. That we would be properly staffed, that the staff we do have, they're not having to slide into lots of different areas and working too much overtime and they're getting that work-life balance. That we are, we're the place to adopt an animal in Anne Arundel County and outside of Anne Arundel County. I think there are too many people that don't know about us and don't think of us first in a place to to get a new animal.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Um so yeah, um, so actually one last thing that I forgot to mention I should have asked you about earlier, because I know it's a big concern to a lot of people is veterinary care, yes, and and um. So we, for a long time, I guess, we contracted for veterinary care. Then we finally did have our own veterinarian for a period. She's gone, and what's the status of that? What did we do when she left?
Claudia Roll:Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, so she was gone when I started. So what we have been doing is we do have what's called, with the vet board, a vet of record, which means we're allowed to order and use certain controlled substances, and she is involved in our operations. Um, we use outside community. We use some vet clinics in the community. Um, for spay neuter we have a community vet who comes on site and does some of our spay neuter. That's, that's been a big part of it, trying to keep up with our spay neuter and we've gotten behind um, but animals are still getting the care, the medical care they need.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:They just come in from outside.
Claudia Roll:Yeah, but the good news is I don't have a start date yet, but we have a new veterinarian who has accepted our offer of employment and I'm just waiting to hear her start date. So I'm so excited.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Good good, good, all right. Well, we are on our way and I can sort of tell I'm not over there much. I hear reports from Christine, our CAO, who talks to you from time to time, and others who have been working with you, and I've just gotten a lot of really positive feedback.
Claudia Roll:Good, to hear.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Good, first three months. Maybe it's a honeymoon.
Claudia Roll:Maybe, let's keep that going though.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, I think it's way better than that, Because I think, I know I'm committed and I actually know the County Council is also committed to improving our services to these animals. I've talked to a number of them and they've been very concerned.
Claudia Roll:I've met with most of them and I agree with you.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Well, good, thank you so much.
Claudia Roll:Thanks for having me.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, yeah, this is fun. I'm going to have to go out there again soon, so everybody out there, thank you for joining us. If you see a subscribe button anywhere that you're listening to this podcast, click on it and that way you'll get notified about who our next guest is next week and we will see you next week. So thanks everybody.
