Pittman and Friends Podcast
Welcome to Pittman and Friends, the curiously probing, sometimes awkward, but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman - that’s me - and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear.
This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County Government, so don’t expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government - of, by, and for the people.
Pittman and Friends Podcast
From Prison to Public Service with Chris Klein and Josh Hatch
What happens when a community decides to embrace rather than reject those returning from incarceration? Anne Arundel County has discovered a powerful answer through an innovative partnership between detention facilities and community organizations.
This eye-opening conversation brings together Superintendent of Detention Facilities Chris Klein and Joshua Hatch, Vice President of Community Action Agency's diversion and reentry services. Together, they reveal how their unique collaboration has created a seamless system of support that begins inside detention facilities and continues throughout the reintegration process.
At the heart of their approach is the groundbreaking Reentry Hub concept at Ordinance Road Detention Center. Unlike traditional correctional models that discourage former detainees from returning, this hub actually invites justice-involved individuals to access services in a familiar environment. "Come back if you need us," explains Klein. "Come back the right way versus coming back the wrong way."
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Hatch shares his own journey from serving 10 years in prison to leading Maryland's statewide task force on reentry services. His personal testimony—"I've worn all the colors: green, blue, orange"—provides unique credibility when working with program participants. This authenticity, combined with practical support like transitional housing, job training, and employment connections, has created remarkable success stories.
Perhaps most compelling is how this approach transforms our understanding of public safety. As Hatch explains, investing in reentry isn't just about compassion—it's a "true investment in public safety" that benefits the entire community. In an economy desperately seeking workers, connecting returning citizens with stable employment (particularly through partners like Luminous Health) creates a win-win scenario.
Whether you're interested in criminal justice reform, community development, or innovative governance, this conversation offers a masterclass in how collaborative leadership can break cycles of incarceration and create pathways to meaningful second chances.
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Welcome to Pittman and Friends. The curiously probing, sometimes awkward but always revealing conversations between your host, Anne Arundel County Executive Steuart Pittman - that's me - and whatever brave and willing public servant, community leader, or elected official I can find who has something to say that you should hear. This podcast is provided as a public service of Anne Arundel County, so don't expect me to get all partisan here. This is about the age-old art of government of, by and for the people. Welcome everybody. I'm here today with two guests instead of one. I have got here Chris Klein, who is the Superintendent of Detention Facilities for Arundel County. Thank you for joining us, Chris.
Chris Klein:Thanks for having me.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And I also have Joshua Hatch, who is the Vice President of the Community Action Agency, overseeing their diversion and re-entry services, also some know as Turnaround Thursday. Welcome, Josh.
Joshua Hatch:Thank you for having me.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Al right.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So it's pretty obvious why I brought the two of these together because they have to work hand in hand. But I want to start out by saying a couple things. Some background. When I came into office, I knew that I wanted to expand, that the county should expand our reentry services. No question about it, that folks who've been incarcerated are going to be back in the communities, and we need to make sure that the transition is a positive one, and hadn't always been. And so I had staff working on trying to figure this out from day one, and we didn't really seem to be making progress. Never really had a plan. I wanted something we could put in the budget and do. We were in a position to get a new superintendent in, and I knew that was an important part of it. So let's go to you, Chris, and tell us what the department does, and then we'll talk about how you end up in the job.
Chris Klein:Okay, so, first of all, Department of Detention is made up of two facilities within the county, and we're basically, you know, from a mission aspect. We're responsible for protecting the public or providing for public safety through the detention or detainment of arrestees, pretrial detainees, and convicted offenders up to 18 months, and then beyond that. We also monitor alternatives to incarceration through pretrial supervision or house arrest. Some work release programs, and then the big one that we're here to talk about today is really also figuring out how to reintegrate our offender population back into the community.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So that's pretty much an overview of what we do. So you've got Jennifer Road and you've got Ordinance Road. Ordinance Road was designed as the lower security less. What's the word? Less different classification of security.
Chris Klein:The design in the 90s was really modeled around a direct supervision model, which that really created an atmosphere and opportunity for staff to directly interact with the population, versus the older correctional models where really the staff were isolated away. And what you know sort of history and education over time found is that that interaction between staff and the population was more beneficial, where you could provide direct resources and give immediate feedback. So that model over at Ordnance Road was really built off of that design. But I think really, maybe, what you might have been getting to is that that building is really our programmatic facility within the county. So there we send people to really get access to the programs that can help them reintegrate back into the community.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And then Jennifer Road.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:it's over by the hospital. We also have central booking there, which is a new facility, has added on to that a new part of the work over the last few years. So that's where a lot of the action is. So your job is to incarcerate people, keep them incarcerated, treat them with dignity. And when they're ready to move on, hopefully, they're prepared right.
Chris Klein:Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say our job is to incarcerate them. But, we follow the orders of the courts and the commissioners, so we're going to hold them according to those judicial orders. But then, yes, you're correct. We make sure that when we're holding them, that we're providing them access to services, whether it's health care, mental health services, drug treatment, whatever an individual needs. That's coming into our responsibility for housing. We're going to make sure that we can provide some of those things that maybe they didn't have while they were out in the community.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, and we'll get into how you ended up in the job in a minute. But, Joshua, I want to jump to you. So, Community Action Agency is the anti-poverty organization of Anne Arundel County, created by the federal government how many years ago?
Joshua Hatch:Since 1965.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:1965. Okay, I think part of the war on poverty and so it's based in. Annapolis is where the main office is, but I know you have programming all around the county, but your reentry services are the part that you're most known for.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I will just give the background, because it was before, I think, you even came on the scene into the picture.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:There was a group that was organizing Anne Arundel Connecting Together, church-based, institution-based but grassroots organizing, and they decided that one of their hot, top, most important issues from early on was to expand reentry services. And, they had me go up to Baltimore City and watch in action an organization called Turnaround Tuesday in Baltimore where they had people who had mostly recently been released and were in the community doing meetings and sort of preparing folks for jobs, connecting them to jobs. And it was at a major church where it was happening, and I was really impressed.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I felt like it was a model where the community was actually embracing people who were coming back into the community, and that's not normal. The— usually it's the opposite. The community doesn't embrace people who've been— employers certainly don't embrace people who've been incarcerated. So we came up with a plan to do a similar one in Anne Arundel, call it Turnaround Thursday. And then they found you, and then it was not originally in community action, but it had a sort of a false start and then it went into community action. So tell us what that is and maybe a little about how it's evolved.
Joshua Hatch:Well, Turnaround Thursday is, as you said, a second chance jobs movement for individuals who are unemployed, underemployed, and returning citizens. And I think the unique thing that how Turnaround Thursday in Anne Arundel County has evolved is Turnaround Tuesday didn't focus on detention, it focused primarily on community. And when I first got the position of executive director, one of the first people that I met with was Superintendent Chris Klein and I sat him down and I said, you know, we really need to focus two-pronged. One the community, but also focus on individuals who are at Ordinance Road and establish a Turnaround Thursday there. So it was through that partnership with the Department of Detention Facilities where we were able to really expand our bandwidth of the program, and focus on individuals who were ready to be released, and some individuals that were sentenced as well as those that were in the community.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, okay, so the two of you met. I had already met you because we brought you on. We hired you. We had a process where we interviewed candidates and you were in Delaware at the time and we engaged community in that process too. Because community was so interested in having a superintendent that they could work with. We even had the union of the employees at the table, which was shocking to some. We did this for police chief as well. We like to work closely with labor, so you went through that process. Tell us a little bit about your background, though. That made you qualified for the job.
Chris Klein:So, starting out, I've been in corrections now for 28 years. I entered the academy in Delaware. The Delaware Department of Correction. Delaware is a unified system, so they don't actually have county jails. It's basically the Department of Correction. So, jails and prison falls under one system. So I had jail experience. Just added to that was the prison experience that I had. Started that career in '97, worked my way up through the ranks. Ultimately, I left the Department of Correction as the chief of prisons for the entire state. Then I went over to Safety and Homeland Security for four years. And then from there, really, I still had this passion inside of me for corrections, and I love the correctional system. I felt like there was more to do.
Chris Klein:I found the posting in Anne Arundel County, and I remember telling my wife, "you know, I think I want to go back to you know we sort of say facetiously, go back to jail. And she was like what are you talking about? And I say you know, I think this is a really great opportunity. I then had the opportunity of meeting the CAO at the time, Matt Power. Had a great interview.
Chris Klein:Like you said, it was with a couple outside individuals. The union was part of that interview process, which also showed me, I think, that the county was really looking to do the right thing. I know from that meeting with Matt and the team there. I felt like it was a good fit, and I think shortly, thereafter, I got the opportunity to meet with you, which was an amazing meeting, you know. I remember early on you talking about reentry, and me sort of explaining my position on what I thought you know could be done in the correctional environment, where I think a lot of people it's easier to throw up excuses as to why you can't do things. Where I really like to approach it is maybe people say we can't do it, but let's figure out a way how we can do it, and that was an amazing meeting. And then, obviously, I've been here now for four years, still thoroughly enjoying the job, making some progress.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Yeah, and we'll get it. We'll get into that. But, Joshua, you were telling that we had a little conversation before this and you mentioned a meeting. And, I think it was your first meeting with some of the community organizations here: Cox, African American Leaders and AACP. How did he do? What was that like? It was sort of there like okay, we got this new guy. He came from Delaware. What makes us think he's going to be any good? He's going to be serious about reentry.
Joshua Hatch:I can't speak for those groups, but I can definitely speak for myself. I was there at the meeting that Superintendent Klein came to. And, first and foremost, the fact that he showed up and he showed up by himself said a lot. No camera crew, this guy. He wanted to present to the community exactly what his philosophy was in corrections, which is important for a lot of reasons.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And you all can't see him right now because this is a podcast. But Chris Klein is not the kind of guy that goes into a room and throws his weight around.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Pretty quiet.
Joshua Hatch:Right, yeah, and from that meeting, I knew that the county selected someone who was willing to listen and have conversations, willing to engage the community, and willing to bring partners to the table. Following the meeting, I immediately reached out to Superintendent Klein and said you know, I'd like to have a follow-up meeting. Very responsive. And in that particular meeting, I would just say that we asked him quite forthrightly," what is your position on reentry? How are you going to tackle what's going on with the population of individuals who are being released from the local detention center? What is your plan? And he said well, what is your plan?
County Executive Steuart Pittman:He threw it right back at you.
Joshua Hatch:He threw it right back on us.
Joshua Hatch:Because his philosophy from what he explained, and of course, he's sitting here. He can go into it more than I can. Was that it had to be a unified front between detention and the community. Everyone has a role in this reentry process. It can't just be the Department of Detention Facility, but together we can collectively work with the population and ensure that individuals have the support and services that they need, so they don't come back to the Department of Detention Facilities.
Chris Klein:Okay, yeah. I remember that meeting, and I think for me a lot of my career, you know, detention and corrections. So we're at the back end, and a lot of people don't realize it. We're after the police, we're after the courts, you know, we're after all the judicial process, and then somebody ends up with us. But then there seems to be this expectation that we're responsible for solving all of the issues that led somebody to get. Well, we're at the end. You know it's very difficult for us and it's not saying that we're not willing to be partners and do our part. But you know, the conversation with Joshua was I can't do it by myself, right. So we need to figure out how to partner, because the time that somebody spends with me is much less right.
Chris Klein:We average nine months of detention for an individual in our system. These people have years before them before they ever got to us, where they don't have education or they don't have job skills or job stability or housing opportunities, right. That's difficult for me in nine months to say I'm going to solve these problems, right, so I can start making those reconnection points. But I need a partner in the community. And if the community never accepts them back, right and that's sort of what you talked about in the beginning here is that the community responds to this issue. If the community doesn't re-surround that individual. And what I drew for Josh was they're going to keep falling into that law enforcement or that criminal justice triangle. Right, right, and so because they don't ever come to me if the community surrounds them and stays solid around them that whole time. So we're putting those gaps back, but then the community's got to re-surround, and that's really where our partnership is.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And so, Josh, you knew something about incarceration. I mean, you knew something about the path that get people there. And you, well, I first met you through Carl Snowden. I'm not sure how the two of you met, but he said you got to meet this guy, and I sat down with you and we had coffee, I think at 49 West. And man I was just. You know, I think I came back to you at one point and said we need to hire this guy.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And Community Action got it first, but tell us you know why you got into the work and how long were you in too. What was that experience?
Joshua Hatch:Well, I'll say that I was on a hamster wheel in and out of local detention centers, my final stint, and I really wish I'd tell people all the time. I wish they would have sent me to this place first, which was the Baltimore City Jail. I got sentenced to 19 years. I ended up doing 10 years on that 19. But while I was there, I was really on the road of self-discovery and had an opportunity to really sit with myself, learn about me, and all of the failures that led up to the moment of me getting that sentence.
Joshua Hatch:While I was there, I also was able to witness countless of individuals who would get released and come back to the Department of Corrections. Because you know they were unable to be housed, or you know a lot of the things that lead to incarceration, met them at the front door. And so I was involved in this program at Patuxent Institution, where we were actually doing this program called Legal Reasoning, where we would talk to people about their decisions, their mindset, especially about the criminal justice system. I knew in that moment that I wanted to get out, come back to the community and give back. So when I was released, I sta rted my journey. My first job was at Giant Nighttime Stocker, and I went from being a Nighttime Stocker to having my own business where I would help individuals prepare for parole, and from that point I went to the community action agency. But my focus and my drive was to give back to my community that I had taken so much from by being a part of the problem and become a part of the solution. And I was just thankful that I came back to the community that embraced me.
Joshua Hatch:You mentioned Carl Snowden. He was one of the first community leaders that I met with and told that I wanted to give back. How could I give back? What were some of the things that I could do? And he introduced me to a lot of people.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I got a question because I've been impressed by not only the quality of your communication skills when you're in person, but also your written skills. Your ability to put a plan together and put it on paper, map it out and think about how systems work and how to change them. What was your education like when you went in? Because when you came out, it seemed like you just got a PhD in something, or that you had just been at an Ivy League institution. It wasn't exactly Ivy League, but was that from school that you got before or did you study when you were in?
Joshua Hatch:I did a lot of studying while I was incarcerated. I read the whole dictionary.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:The dictionary.
Joshua Hatch:Yeah, the dictionary, read a lot of books. Studied a lot of legal material. Studied a lot of legal material. That was my primary focus while I was there was to educate myself, because I understood that education unlocks doors. Whereas, before I would shun it. Was a problem child in school obtained a GED. But education for me, understanding, having enlightenment on systems, problem solving was something that I wanted to get into, specifically re-entry. So that was my focus while I was incarcerated.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, okay, so fast forwarding a little bit. You said, "what are y'all doing in the community? You must have at some point said well, come on over, let's work together. And a lot of the community-based program that you started out with in Turnaround Thursday turned out to be most successful with folks who were on the inside. The superintendent brought you in. We have other programs. We work with state programs. We're building out a reentry hub at Ordnance Road now. So obviously we now have the pieces coming together. And you told me that you're talking to a lot of people around the state who are looking at what we're doing. Me that you're talking to a lot of people around the state who are looking at what we're doing. And you have been appointed by the governor to serve on the task force on the creation of a diversion and returning citizens. But wait, you say it. You say it. It's way too. I can't read my own handwriting.
Joshua Hatch:Okay, it's the task force on the creation of a division of returning citizens and expanded reentry services.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Woo, okay okay, so the governor appointed you. I think I might have written a letter of support or something, but he appointed you and then the task force gets together and then they decide to elect you as their chair. Right, yes, okay, so what's that like? What are you all doing over there?
Joshua Hatch:So right now we have three focuses. One, we're looking at the current state of re-entry for the Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services. The second focus is to establish and create what a division of returning citizens would look like under the umbrella of the Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services. And then, thirdly, we're looking at the expanded services from housing, employment, behavioral health services, the various services that are needed for an individual as they exit out and back into the community. So there's three subcommittees that are evaluating those three focus areas, and we have until October 2026 to develop a report for the General Assembly and the Governor.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Okay, well, that sounds like some of what we did, particularly the way we brought the different pieces together. And it was a little bit organic, I think, the way we did it, because we just had the right people. You know, we had you, Superintendent Klein, we had you, Joshua. We had community-based organizations like ACT. We had the experience of Community Action Agency. Y'all had a willing partner in county government. So here we are with a whole system that I guess y'all should explain, because, to me, it's gotten to the point where it's almost hard to keep track of. What really matters, though, is the data, the numbers, folks who are not going back in, but they're getting jobs. So why don't you, Superintendent Klein, talk about first the re-entry hub concept, and then, Joshua, you can talk about the part you're doing?
Chris Klein:Yeah, absolutely. One of the things. Early on, I remember your administration asked me to look at facility usage, and we're still not quite out of COVID. So, it's hard. It was hard to get a full sort of feeling for space post-COVID and what that looks like in a correctional facility. But our population was down. A lot of that is due to some other initiatives. You know, justice, reinvestment, and reviewing really the process of only holding, you know, the most violent criminals that we have, the other people that can be supervised in the community. Let's do that because that's ultimately better for them.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And I'll tell you, when I asked you to do that. I was even part of me was thinking well, maybe we don't need two facilities. Maybe we could save a whole bunch of money by closing down Ordinance. But you all came up with a better idea.
Chris Klein:Yeah, that was definitely part of the task. But really our system in the county is unique, and what I talked about earlier that direct supervision model. So you need a system with both direct supervision and indirect supervision. When Ordinance Road was built, it was only built with direct supervision. So it would have been difficult for the county to consolidate to one facility because you need all of those pieces together. So our system really works well with both of those facilities. But what we came up with was what I had noticed early on was we do a great job of providing services to our active incarcerated 24-7 population. But I noticed that there's this group, and right now in the county for pretrial services, we supervise roughly 350 individuals out in the community every day. For house arrests, we supervise another 120 individuals out in the community. So, almost a little less than half of our entire population is actually already out in the community. But what I noticed is, other than those individuals coming in to check in with our correctional program specialist team. We don't really do a good job of providing them services. Right, the premise is they're out in the community, so they can access the services in the community. They're out there, but maybe and this sort of goes to. The partnership is maybe, we can also do a better job of helping them get those services. Especially if we're providing those services at our facility, why not? Why can't you also get that opportunity or access at the facility? And maybe in some circumstances, you find out that actually that justice- involved population is more comfortable with accessing it at our facility because they've already built relationships or they know and trust the staff that are trying to help them.
Chris Klein:So the model for the hub was not only sort of a re-entry, but it became sort of a pre-entry before you come in, right. Because that group is our group, that's the justice- involved population. They're the most likely if somebody's to offend they you know some regard, already have one foot in the door, so let's prevent them from both feet being in the door. But to do that we're saying come back to us. You know a detention model or corrections model is generally when people get released.
Chris Klein:We say don't come back, right. But here we're changing that to say come back if you need us, right. Come back the right way versus coming back the wrong way. So we want to be that outlet. So we actually coined the phrase. The prep group or prep program is for that pre-entry slash re-entry, and so then, within that hub model. Not only are we going to provide services for our fully incarcerated population, but we're also going to provide services for that pre-trial supervision. That house arrest population, our work release population, and ultimately expand that to our partnership through our reentry agreements with the state population as well.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Right, right. I know that we've got an agreement that people could actually come through us on their way out, right, and they've just had the first few people do that.
Chris Klein:Yeah, we've been. As far as I know. Josh can correct me if I'm wrong, but we are the only county in the state to have received people back from the DOC in Maryland on this local reentry agreement, and we just received our third individual. So we've finally broken down all of those barriers and made that happen to the success.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And the idea is they get a smoother path and they're in the community where they're from.
Chris Klein:The DOC collects the information to know where people are returning.
Chris Klein:Okay, so this is just a matter of figuring out how we can get them back sooner to start building those pieces, whether it's getting them involved with the Turnaround Thursday program, getting them job services, getting them documents, Medicaid. We can do that locally, yeah, because they're going to be our community and that's the goal. Okay.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:So then, on the outside, Joshua, I know you're doing some of your classes. On the inside, let's get specific about some of the actual things that you're doing with folks, and I will just preface that by saying. Ultimately, getting them into stable jobs is the goal, and that in this economy, where we do not have we have about three times the number of jobs. As we have people, workforce potential, you know, people looking for jobs, and so it's a no- brainer. It's not political, any of that. It's if you care about economic growth, you want to get people into the workforce, and all of our businesses are saying that. So, I know you've worked directly with some businesses, so tell us what you're actually doing out there.
Joshua Hatch:So one of the things that we've learned, and it really is fortunate that we were able to partner with the Department of Detention Facilities is that a lot of programs that are offered, whether it be in the community or in the department, have the one-size-fits-all approach. Whereas, Turnaround Thursday and also the services that we offer in Jennifer Road. Our starting point is an assessment. Because, we need to understand what are the risks? What are the needs of the individual should they be released? That is a primary focal point for us. Sure, we want them to get a job, but at the same time we want to make sure that they are prepared for a job. So once they get employed they stay employed and then they're on a ladder of upward mobility towards independence. Things like transportation and housing, right. Absolutely. So every participant that comes into the program, we do an evaluation of them to determine what their actual needs are. Once we figure out those needs, then we work with the participant. They do participate in 30 hours of training, training once they're released, whether they need housing, transportation, behavioral health services. We're able to kind of coordinate those services for an individual and what the result is those barriers that would initially meet a person upon release. We've already started to plan on how to mitigate those barriers. Some individuals need transitional housing, so we're able to provide that. Some individuals need a bus pass, food, clothing, we're able to provide those services for an individual.
Joshua Hatch:I think the most essential thing that we're able to do for individuals is to provide re-entry coaching. And some people may think that it's easy I get released, I've got a plan, I'll be fine. But reality is that most people fall on their face within the first 90 days of being released. Their plans that they had created. They're not viable. Maybe someone who they plan to return home to doesn't want them to stay there any longer. All type of things can actually happen. But to have an organization to say we're going to walk with you step by step to ensure that those plans that we put together, should something happen, you have someone who can coach you through those problems, has been really essential.
Joshua Hatch:You have someone who can coach you through those problems has been really essential. We've seen individuals from getting released, no job, not having a place to stay, to being housed, going to permanent housing with a job, been able to obtain a vehicle. Just past weekend, a single mom who was in a transitional house, Turnaround Thursday graduate. She was able to get a vehicle, and she's working and she's doing well. And I would just say within a couple of months, she'll be in permanent housing. All because this county sees investing in people at this particular population as a true investment on public safety. True investment on public safety, which a lot of jurisdictions grapple with, understanding re-entry as a smart investment on public safety. It is.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:It is. And on that housing piece, tell us about the role that you play, because sometimes you can find people housing and other people. There just are no options. So you came to us and said we need to have a place for women and a place for men. Right, and now we've got another place coming online soon. Tell us about that.
Joshua Hatch:Well, so the idea is that there's a lot of individuals in the community, separate and apart from being a part of justice involvement, that have issues with housing and homelessness, which is a driver to crime.
Joshua Hatch:Right, people are in desperate need of having food, shelter, clothing and they're unable to provide for themselves.
Joshua Hatch:So that is really exacerbated when individuals are coming out of a facility and they have nowhere to go. Right, the response to that is having transitional housing, structured transitional housing, and we've been doing this for about two years now. We were able to have a place for male and females to return to and provide them with the bed. But the number of the needs for individuals who are returning home has grown significantly, and so having a central location, not only just to house individuals. But kind of the same philosophy that Superintendent Klein has, having a hub for individuals where services can be provided, one-stop shop model that is what we're doing now with the new location that we'll be moving into here soon. Having 15 beds, having the ability to have all of our partners from parole and probation, workforce, development, the various vendors and providers that are going to work with this population have a schedule to come in, work with them, as well as providing Turnaround Thursday there for them and some cognitive behavioral therapy with our clinician.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:And that can be some of the same folks that go to the hub on the inside. So, you mentioned that some people are kind of comfortable going back to Ordinance. They're familiar with the staff and the people there. And then I've also heard people don't want to go anywhere near a facility, and so now we'll have this other house on the outside.
Chris Klein:Yeah, it's interesting and when I first came here, sort of reentry had fallen under the police department and it was really the first time I heard that their model was, because in some regard you would think they're the people that are responsible for why I'm in that situation. But I think there's some truth to that, right, if you do it well. I do agree with Joshua. It has to be an all hands on deck right, and one of the discussions I've had with my team member and Joshua's team is we can't be so held up on. You know who's taking ownership of this. Everybody has to partner together. So don't worry if somebody else can do it, because we're all doing it under sort of the premise that whoever can help somebody is somebody getting helped, right. And so you don't have to say like I'm going to hang up a ribbon because I did this first, or you know, we're all part of the same team, and so, in that there are some multiple people on Joshua's team that are on my team, that are on the larger team, that's fine as long as we're providing those resources. So it is okay, because I do believe there are some people that do want to come back.
Chris Klein:We've seen it on the education. We've had an individual come back to us that we allowed them to complete their GED even though they had been released. They had been working with our staff for I think it was over 20 years, and you know the 60- year- old individual finally gets their GED. And I know it's high school diploma in Maryland, but completed that through Department of Detention, right. So we do. We can add to helping people if they want. Before I think our model would have been don't come back to us. But, that doesn't help either.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Well, and it's so true that people got to work together. I mean, Joshua, you've been working for a specific organization, but I've always been impressed how you look at the big picture, and now you're working on the big picture at the state level and trying to guide and put all the pieces together. Last thing we're going to have to close it up here shortly, but I've been to some of the graduations that you've done for Turnaround Thursday at Ordnance Road. And I've heard some folks speak who are in the program, and you've got classes of I don't know 10, 15, 20 people. It seems to me that there's some kind of a group accountability thing going on and that relationships, personal relationships, whether it's you or other people who work with you really make a difference. Can you say anything about that?
Joshua Hatch:Yeah, I can. I think it is being relatable. They see a face who's able to give a testimony to say I've been where you're at. I tell them all the time. I've worn all the colors, right. Green, blue, orange. I've been in all the colors, so I know how it is to be in the facility where you're at right now. But I'm telling you, you can be where I'm at today. It is not far-fetched. It's within your reach. I think sometimes people, professional folks, when you're standing before them you're out of their reach. But when I stand before them I'm within their reach because I've been there, I can relate to them.
Joshua Hatch:And that level of accountability that you see comes from us saying we, collectively, we came up with a plan for you and a part of your plan is dealing with the reality of now you being incarcerated. There are some things that you have to do. Well, I don't like the COs. We hear that a lot. Well, guess what? There's a lot of people, and I won't say it because I'm being recorded, that I've come across that I don't necessarily like. But does that stop me from being effective? You can't allow your stay to stop you from being effective, because you know what your goal is. You know, what the end game is. And the end game is for you to really build up your character and your internal integrity, to say no matter what, I'm going to stick to the plan. And the plan is for me to be successfully released, for me to obtain employment, and for me to be a success story for myself. Not for anybody else.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I was going to close things up, and there's one more thing I got to ask you about your relationship with Luminous.
Joshua Hatch:Oh yes, can't forget them. Luminous has been truly. I've been in, and around a medical center.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Some people don't know the new name.
Joshua Hatch:Yeah, true partner in this work. True. True partner in this work.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:They signed on when it was a grassroots thing that ACT said. And they said, you know, we need people.
Joshua Hatch:So we went from training in a church to being able to do the training in one of the institutions that is responsible for hiring more than half of our participants, which is Luminous Health. So every Thursday, we go to the hospital. HR is involved in the training sessions. Various department heads come to the training sessions, and that is them showing the commitment that they have to Turnaround Thursday, and it's really worked.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:I love it. I love it, because it's an institution that desperately needs people, needs good people, and you work for them and you're healing people. Absolutely and, as you, I'm sure, can attest, healing people is about the best way to heal yourself
Joshua Hatch:Absolutely.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Well, we are lucky in this county to have both of you and to have so many other partners that you work with doing this work, and to me it is. You know, we really should be judged by how the most vulnerable among us, the ones that maybe we need to forgive or that need to be forgiven, certainly need the connection and the arms wrapping around them, embracing them, saying come on, be part of our communities. So I'm thrilled that we're finally really making some major progress and changing lives. So thank you.
Joshua Hatch:Thank you.
County Executive Steuart Pittman:Thank you very much. Al right, and if you're listening, you can subscribe. If you haven't already hitting the subscribe button, and you'll know then, who our next guests are. Make sure you don't miss an episode of Pittman and Friends.
