Attachment Styles in Dating (with Dr. Morgan)

This month on The Dry Diaries we’re talking about raising our standards in dating and relationships, and this episode is one I think so many people will relate to. I sit down with Dr. Morgan to talk about attachment styles and how they quietly shape the way we show up in relationships, why some people pull away when things get close, why others feel anxious when communication changes, and why we sometimes find ourselves repeating the same relationship patterns over and over again. We talk about where these patterns come from, how they show up in dating, and what it actually looks like to build healthier, more secure connections. It’s basically a girl chat about understanding yourself a little better so you can stop repeating the same dynamics and start creating relationships that actually feel safe and aligned.

Dear Diary prompts

What patterns do I notice in the way I show up in relationships?
What would a relationship that actually feels secure look like for me?

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Attachment Matters

unknown 0:06

This is the Dry Diaries with your author, Alex Dry.

Alex 0:18

Hey guys, welcome back to another entry of the Dry Diaries. It's your author, Alex Dry, and I am here with Dr. Morgan. Today we are going to be talking about something that I feel like a lot of women have gone through is attachment styles. And as you guys know, the whole month of May is about dating and relationships. I think that this is a huge topic that plays into the whole dating scene. It's something I've been learning about recently, and I really don't even know the complexity of it. So I was super excited to bring Dr. Morgan on, chat about this, and just learn more about the different attachment styles, how they work. Dr. Morgan works with individuals and couples to understand the emotional and psychological patterns that influence relationships. Her work focuses on attachment styles and helping people identify their relationship patterns, understand why they choose certain partners, and learn how to build healthier and more secure connections.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yes, I'm a clinical psychologist and attachment style expert, and I'm the host of Let's Get Vulnerable.

Alex 1:30

Oh wait, so you can specialize in psychology for attachment styles?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So as a psychologist, yes. I became very interested in attachment theory and couples. So yes. And it's true that not all psychologists really go as niche on relationships. I was always fascinated with relationships.

Alex 1:54

So how long did you know that you wanted to get into psychology?

SPEAKER_02 2:00

From age eight or nine. Oh wow. I knew that I wanted to be a psychologist. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex 2:09

Were you just always overanalyzing everyone?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Like many people in this field, I had my own childhood trauma. So I was going through things in my own family and really trying to make sense of it and understand what was happening. And then I also became such a caregiver and a highly sensitive person based on the trauma I experienced. So just from a young age, I was always fascinated with understanding people, helping and supporting them. And when it came time to think about a career, I couldn't imagine doing anything else besides being a psychologist. So that's what I did.

Alex 2:48

How do you differentiate your normal life to your career? Because I feel like they go hand in hand. If you're a psychologist, you also just, I feel like, have a natural gift of being able to read people and understand people. And so it's like almost a superpower.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yes. That's a great question. My my husband will sometimes say to me, You're off the clock. And I say to him, This is who I am. If I, regardless if I was a psychologist or not, this is how I would show up. And it's just deeply thinking, reflective, empathic. So yeah, there is a personality trait that helps me. And I love what I do.

Alex 3:29

Yeah.

What Attachment Styles Really Are

Alex 3:30

Okay. Well, I guess we can dive straight into it, talking about attachment styles. So can you tell people that don't know or have never heard of attachment styles what it is?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Yes. Essentially, your attachment style determines who you are attracted to and how you maintain and build relationships. There's so much. I when someone asks me this question, I'm like, okay, do we have six hours? So I try, I want to try to make it as easy to understand as possible. Your attachment style is your brain's like drawer in the file cabinet labeled this is how to form a relationship, and this is how we get our needs met in a relationship. So it's all of those patterns, strategies, how you show up can be explained by your attachment style. And we know that yes, your early childhood experiences, so your relationship with primary caregivers has a huge influence, and also subsequent significant relationships. So even sibling relationships, friends relationships, and of course romantic partners, all of your significant relationship experiences, they come together and they form and shape your attachment style. And your attachment style is not something you consciously choose. This is shaped based on your past experiences. And there's four main styles. Do you know all the styles yet? No, not yet. Okay. So we have anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized, and then secure. And secure is where we all want to be. So with those four styles, about 50% of the population has an insecure style. So anxious, avoidant, or disorganized. And then the other 50% is securely attached. So much research on this and the ways that these attachment styles are growing. We know that avoidant attachment is the fastest growing style. And I just find it so fascinating that this is something that we can change. I want your audience to know that.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

We'll talk about what they each are and how to identify yourself. But if you have an insecure attachment style, you can become securely attached. You can rewire your brain thanks to neuroplasticity.

Alex 6:04

I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about all the different attachment styles. And I feel like each one she was talking about, I was like, okay, maybe there is one where I was like, I don't think that's me at all. But like the other three, I was like, I have qualities in all of them. So what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, we can definitely talk about that.

Alex 6:24

Yeah, I thought it was interesting. Can you have just or most people that you see, do they have one or two, or do they have a mix of all four?

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Or so everyone has a primary style that is their go-to style. Okay. And then they may have traits of the other styles that could come out in certain dynamics. And if you're feeling, ooh, I have anxious attachment and avoidant attachment, I have both of those strategies, then you likely have disorganized attachment.

Alex 6:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Which is most highly correlated with issues in relationships and childhood trauma. And that was the style that I had to recover from. That's where I think people go, well, wish I. If you're a lot of times, if you're asking that, you might have disorganized attachment. Okay. So we'll find out for you today.

Alex 7:16

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Do you want to get into what each one is? Okay.

Alex 7:20

I love that.

Anxious Attachment And Reassurance Loops

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Okay. So let's start with anxious attachment. Anxious attachment is at the core, you're devaluing yourself and overvaluing your partner. And with this style, your reassurance bucket has holes in it. Meaning, no matter how much reassurance your partner gives you, you can't internalize it. So you're not feeling safe and secure in the relationship. With anxious attachment, you're always waiting to be abandoned, or you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. You're going to find out something about them. You're on high alert. You're hypervigilant. You're only as secure as your last interaction with them. A lot of times, the only time that you can calm down in the relationship is when you're physically present with that person. And with anxious attachment, they struggle with self-soothing and emotional regulation. And a lot of times they're outsourcing that to everybody else in their life, including their partner.

Alex 8:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

So this is that classic you sent 17 text messages and didn't get a reply. And now you're thinking of driving to their house. You should probably have anxious attachment. Any questions about that one?

Alex 8:32

No, I don't think so. People who often have anxious attachment, what does that stem from in childhood? Is that from neglect of getting attention from their parents or feeling left out with friends?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah. Yeah. So there's so many different routes of anxious attachment, but of course, emotional neglect, chronic emotional invalidation, abandonment, some kind of relational trauma that they've experienced. Yeah. There's so much there. And I I think what's really interesting, you can have two people who experience the same childhood trauma, but they develop different coping skills. So you could have two people who experience emotional neglect. One develops anxious attachment, the other develops avoidant attachment. All about it's the anxious attachment was the coping skill that you developed because of that relational trauma you experienced.

Alex 9:31

So does anxiety go hand in hand with anxious attachment or not always necessarily?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Not always necessarily. And it's an unfortunate name in that way, which is why sometimes people can call it preoccupied is almost a better term. Because you can have anxious attachment and not experience generalized anxiety disorder or anything like that. Yeah.

Alex 9:55

Which one did you say that you had to overcome?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Disorganized attachment style. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's go to avoid it.

Alex 10:02

Yeah, I'm like, I just wasn't. Well, let's get to it. It's juicy.

Avoidant And Disorganized Push Pull

SPEAKER_02 10:06

So with avoidant attachment, this is where intimacy is not safe. So with anxious attachment, you're craving the intimacy and you're terrified of abandonment. With avoidant attachment, you're afraid to be close. So you develop hyperindependence as a coping skill.

Alex 10:24

Yeah, this is me.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah, I could tell. Yes. Hyperindependence with avoidant attachment, it doesn't always feel safe to connect to your emotions because you're going, ah, I don't have time for that. Plus, I don't want to have to rely on other people. I don't want to have to share my emotions with other people. It's easier for me to just compartmentalize. These are the people, classic high achievers, putting work first, can a lot of times be the rock for everybody else. And then the thing that's hard with avoidant attachment is when you get closer to someone and you're investing in a relationship, that's when some of those sabotaging thoughts come. Oh, but is this the right relationship? And a lot of times with avoidant attachment, there can be this fear of am I gonna mess this up? Am I a good partner? Intimacy doesn't feel safe and it doesn't feel comfortable.

Alex 11:23

Yeah, because as you're explaining it, this definitely resonates with me, but it's almost like it starts out that way and then it goes into anxious attachment almost when it comes to relationships. More if that makes sense. Because it's like you get you finally let your guard down and get close to them. Well, now I'm just waiting for something to happen.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Cause it can, it brings up a lot of fear for that avoidantly attached person to let someone in. Let's talk about disorganized attachment because you might resonate with that. With disorganized attachment, you have anxious and avoidance strategies, and you can find yourself pendulum swinging between the two. Okay. So you use both strategies where, you know, you may be feeling like, oh, I I don't want to be abandoned. And this is all in the subconscious. You're not saying these things out loud. It's just showing up in your actions. So you go into that, I'm gonna be hyper-vigilant, I'm looking for things to make sure that this relationship's gonna work out. And then in the next moment, you might be like, forget this. I don't need this person. I'm going to cabo with my girlfriends. I don't even need a relationship. So there can be some of that pendulum swinging in one relationship, and it could all happen within the same week. So your nervous system, your attachment system doesn't feel safe being closed, and it uses both anxious and avoidance strategies to deal with that discomfort. And this can feel a lot of times like two steps forward, two steps back in a relationship. And then these people have the best relationship stories. This is me. I could write a book of short stories with all of the craziness because you oftentimes go really intense in the beginning. And then that leads to all kinds of things. And then with disorganized attachment, there's a lot of struggling with identity and that sense of self because you're just so talented at being a chameleon and trying to fit in with whatever relationship you're in at the moment. And a lot of emotional dysregulation and not wanting to feel your emotions. But then when you do, they're really big. And then you try to outsource it to someone else, but then you don't want to feel anything. As I'm talking about this style, I'm just reminded of how much chaos and pain it really can bring to people's lives. And that was me for over a decade.

Alex 13:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah.

Secure Attachment And Real Relationship Capacity

Alex 13:49

And then there's secure, which is the idea.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Secure attachment where we all want to be, where we value ourselves, we value our partner, we have high self-worth. We also value relationships. With secure attachment, we have something called interdependence. So I can depend on myself and I can depend on my partner. With anxious attachment, we're more likely to fall into that codependent where I'm really depending on my partner. With avoidant attachment, more likely to have hyper-independence. I'm not able to depend on people. It's interdependence. I depend on me and I can depend on you. When we're emotionally regulated, it's not to say that it's perfect. With secure attachment, you have conflict, but you trust yourself, you can communicate well, and you know that you can repair after conflict. And I think with secure attachment as well, it's important to realize that we're seeing people in reality and we're investing emotionally at a slower pace. We're gathering the data. There's not as much fantasy relationship building going on in your mind. And love gets to feel easy and calm and peaceful. And you get to have intimacy that feels safe to be in, that is intentionally built.

Alex 15:13

Yeah. I think that's a huge thing, especially like my friends. I'm not currently in a relationship, but even like past relationships or like how the work that I've done within myself and now realizing certain things is our society's very quick to say, oh, one thing went wrong. It's done, we're over, we're walking away. Whereas it's no, the next partner I'm with. You have to have a mutual understanding that we're both imperfect people. Yeah. And we're gonna go through things together. But it's being able to have that safety net of, are you gonna be there for me through these times? And it's so hard to find people like that. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

It's this realization that it's so easy to just say, oh, we're done. We're not gonna work on things. Secure attachment is that commitment and that hard work of, hey, if something hard comes up, we know we can figure it out together. It's about finding those people that want to invest in relationships. Especially, I guess, in the LA dating scene, maybe you run into this where it's like people have avoidant attachment or they're prioritizing other things in their life because capacity is so important. Capacity for intimacy, actually wanting a relationship, not just thinking you want one, yeah, actually wanting one and actually having the emotional availability. It's so required. And I tell people if you have love, but you don't have capacity, yeah, you have torture.

Alex 16:51

Yeah. It's so true. Because I'm 33. So a lot of my friends are married, but then I was in a relationship for a bit of time and we broke up maybe two years ago. And of course, like after a year, I traveled, I was working, doing my thing. I was like, okay, I think I'm ready for a relationship. And I sat back and I really realized it. I still feel like I'm on the fence if I'm ready or not. But I've always longed for it and I want to get married, I want to start a family and all these things. But then once that comes up, I'm like, actually, I don't have the bandwidth to really put out and go on dates and put myself out there. Which I feel like people see other people getting married and like going on dates and having relationships, and they're like, I want that, but it's easy to say you want something, but do you actually have the bandwidth to hold place for that in your life? Which isn't something that's not talked about enough, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, it's not talked about enough. Absolutely. And it's the bandwidth to do it intentionally as well. And I think it's this piece of so then when you say, Oh, I don't have the bandwidth, then your work is, well, why not? What is the story you're telling yourself about intimacy or about being in a relationship? And there's that opportunity to go back to that past relational trauma. What needs to be processed, what needs to be felt through so that you can then release it, so that you're approaching your dating life with a blank slate because then you have energy for it. It's when we're carrying our past stuff with us that it's, oh hell no, I'm not going on a date. I think it's that lean in when you don't have capacity. Well, why not? Get to the root of it.

Alex 18:38

Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yeah.

Alex 18:41

So do people usually have one attachment? We touched on this, but do they people that you work with usually have one attachment style, or does it change depending on who that they're dating?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

So people typically have a predominant strategy. And I actually have a quiz. I'll give you a quiz for your listeners. And you can see what is your predominant strategy, and it can change based on who you're dating.

Alex 19:08

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Yeah, it can. But you typically have one that you're the most comfortable in. And I will say this disorganized attachment can really be confusing to people, and they're like, what am I gonna do? And you can go from anxious to avoidant within one relationship, and that that can be disorganized attachment as well. Yeah.

Alex 19:33

Is disorganized attachment usually read by people not almost knowing how to read you?

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Yes, that's a good way to describe it. It can feel confusing.

Alex 19:46

People are like, oh, it's so hard to read.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah.

Alex 19:48

Does that mean you have disorganized? It can be.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Oh, it absolutely can be. And I think even being confused by yourself or people saying, I'm confused, I don't know what's going on, those are definitely signs. And I do want to say this though, that all of us have a percentage of secure attachment. So it's not that you're I'm fully anxious or I'm fully avoidant. No, you have some secure strategies. Yeah. And the goal is we just want that to be more and more of how you show up.

Alex 20:18

Yeah. Can a partner bring out more of a secure attachment to you? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

You can have what are called corrective emotional experiences in relationships that help rewire your brain and help you become more secure. My caveat to that is that a lot of people think, oh, I'll just wait for the right person. I'll just wait for that secure person. But then if that person comes in their life, they reject that person. So I like to think you at least got to get started on your secure attachment journey and to enjoy your dating life, because you deserve to enjoy it. Let's not have the bar so low that we're like, well, I just want to make a relationship work. You deserve to actually enjoy it. And to do that, you should be as securely attached as you can possibly be on your own. And then there is gonna be some healing that can only take place within a relationship.

Alex 21:14

Yeah, because obviously we're talking about dating and relationships right now, but this also applies to friendships as well. It does.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

It applies to friendships, it applies everywhere.

Alex 21:25

Wow. Okay, I love that. Okay.

Why Chaotic Love Feels Magnetic

Alex 21:28

Why do relationships feel magnetic even when they are chaotic? A lot of the girls that listen to my podcast are in their 20s, like early 30s. And so I feel like with dating, it's really easy to meet somebody and like instantaneously you're like, oh my gosh, they're so hot. I'm so interested in them. And there's just that magnetic connection. But then maybe two or three dates down the line, it starts to feel a little bit chaotic because they're Not being consistent or texting back or any of those things.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

This leads me to repetition compulsion. So I'll give you a whole example because I think examples are helpful. There's someone who grew up and her father was emotionally unavailable and also worked like 70 hours a week, so he wasn't very physically present. So she experienced that emotional unavailability, someone who wasn't present, and she started to develop this template for a relationship. Fast forward, she's in her 20s and she's dating, and she keeps dating these emotionally unavailable people who are inconsistent, who she never knows when they're gonna show up, who will text her at 1 a.m. YWD. So she's repeating this pattern. And then she's like, okay, I'm gonna do it differently this time. Well, she goes out and she's at this event, and there's 99 securely attached people there. All great guys. They're just these wonderful, emotionally available men. There's one avoidantly attached person. Who is she drawn to? She finds that one person, and it is magnetic. And this is repetition compulsion. Your nervous system, your attachment system pulls you to that unpredictable, exciting, chaotic partner, like a moth to the flame. You are pulled in and you're repeating a pattern, and your unconscious mind is hoping that this time I'll get a different result. If I'm enough, if I'm pretty enough, if I'm smart enough, I'll get this guy to love me. And not only will that feel good in the moment, but it'll make up for my childhood trauma.

Alex 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

So that is why that happens. And then, of course, when we go through the breakup, we feel like we're dying. It's so devastating. And it's because it's not just about that guy, it's about all of your relational trauma and that pattern being repeated, and then your unhealthy beliefs about yourself getting reconfirmed again. Interesting. So that's when you're on the floor with the Ben and Jerry's listening to your breakup songs and crying for three weeks.

Alex 24:24

Okay. So how do you break out of the is it but the copy-paste theory? Why is it so hard for the current thing? The copy-paste theory. Copy-paste theory.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Because you're having all these different relationships, but it's actually just the same relationship over and over. Same guy, different haircut, over and over, copy paste. And the way you break it is you have to go back to the root. You have to deal with the past relational trauma at the root, process it, feel it as your adult, emotionally available self, really allow yourself to, and then completely let it go. And then intentionally rewire your brain with healthy, securely attached, new belief systems that are based in reality, not based in survival.

Alex 25:13

So a lot of the times, whenever you're instantaneously attracted to this person, but you've been working on yourself. So you're almost like in the middle, you're teetering back and forth. And you see someone, you're like, oh, I'm attracted to them. It's the magnetic thing. Is it better to sit back and reevaluate before exploring that? Because you are in that middle point of figuring out, or I guess healing is a better word to say.

Slow Down And Gather Real Data

SPEAKER_02 25:45

That is such a good question. Because of course you can have chemistry with securely attached people. Let's acknowledge that. And when you're healing, it is so hard, I think, at first to tell the difference between, oh, this is my attachment wounding getting activated, versus, ooh, there's some flirty, fun chemistry here. Yeah. So that's where if you're feeling that magnetic pull, slow down.

Alex 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

You are now in the five mile an hour speed zone here. Slow down. Do everything you can to slow down.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Because you have to gather the data. You have to say, oh, there's a reason why my nervous system is feeling this pulled towards this person.

Alex 26:32

Yeah. Cause I think it's really easy to like fantasize or think 10 steps ahead.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah.

Alex 26:40

And well, I guess instead of just sitting back and going through the process. Because I always hear about how many dates should you go on before it's official or stuff like that. So I feel like that kind of goes hand in hand with maybe certain attachment styles as well. It's like you're longing for that security or that title to be placed. And so you're trying to rush the process, which maybe is also rushing like how well you know them. Yes. Working on your healing journey as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Absolutely. I don't know if that means total sense.

Alex 27:15

I it made like thinking through my thought process.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yeah, no, it made me think about the anxiously attached girl listening to this episode. She wishes that I would say, okay, here's the rules. Go on six dates and then say that you're official. Yeah. And you can only say I love you after six months and make sure you don't sleep with them until you've been on 15 dates. Like the anxiously attached girl, she wants me to give exact rules because she wants a sense of control. She thinks if there's some things I can control and I can control doing it perfect, it's thinking it's going to make her feel better. But perfect doesn't exist. Yeah. And there actually aren't rules, which people hate when I say that. But the reality is the rule is can you feel securely attached with this person? Are you capable of co-creating secure attachment with them? Do you like how you feel when you're with this person? Are you your most authentic self? Are you your highest and best self? Can you be open, honest, direct, and have secure, assertive communication? Like those are the things that matter.

Alex 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

And then I think this is important with emotional investment and not going too quick. You always want to ask yourself: is my relationship securely attached enough for this? Don't take the trip to Paris on day number three. I had a client that used to do that, would just go on trips with people like early on. She had a lot of great stories, but we have to say, have I built enough secure attachment to support this kind of investment? So, same with physical intimacy. Am I securely attached enough to have sex with this person? Do I trust them? Is there honesty here? Do I feel emotionally safe? So we have to start asking those questions.

Alex 29:13

What if you meet a guy and he gives you, for the most part, very secure feelings? But you do start to notice he has predomin like his predominant attachment style starts coming out.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

People ask me this all the time. And I think it really does depend where you are at in the connection. Yeah. Certainly not date number one, two, or maybe even three. You don't want to say, hey, I think you're avoiding the attachment. But there's a great way to bring it up. And I always think that modeling is the most powerful thing. So you can say something like, Hey, I'm learning about attachment styles. I'm finding it really helpful. I'm learning that I have this attachment style and this is how it shows up. I'm curious, have you ever thought about your attachment style? Yeah.

Alex 30:06

You're gonna be like, what the hell?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

You'd be surprised. I think it's and you know what I love about this? It's gathering the data. Is it, are they emotionally available enough?

Alex 30:17

Yeah, I feel like that's very telling if they're very open to receiving that conversation. Yes. Yeah. Because the avoidant in me would be like, not that I would bring it up in that way, but if I internalized and started seeing sides of it, I would just be like, let's move on.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah. Totally.

Alex 30:37

Okay, not gonna work out for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Totally. So I think it's a really good way to gauge. Are we able to have conversations about our relationship? Securely attached couples, long-lasting marriages, they're able to talk about the health of the relationship. So I think it's a good, it's a good way to tune into that. Do you work with individuals as well?

Alex 31:00

Yes. Is it predominantly women or women and men? Okay. With the guys, what is the age range to be?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

All ages, really. They're 30 to my oldest client was 75. Oh wow. 30 to 75.

Alex 31:17

That's amazing. That's so cool. I feel like guys that are 30, they mature later on. So to be 30 and working on that is really cool. But like 75, that's I'm like, my dad needs to come to you.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

I love working with my older clients because I hate the myth that it's too late. Like, no, neuroplasticity. We can always rewire our brains. We always can't.

Alex 31:46

Do you like being a psychologist, do you believe in the power of frequency and manifestation?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

I love the neuroscience behind those terms.

Alex 31:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah. It's true. I think about the term salience, right? We know that our brain notices in our environment the things that are in alignment with what we believe and what we focus on. That's neuroscience. So I think manifestation and it's all just neuroscience, but labeled in a really fun way. Yeah. And I will say though, where I do struggle with manifestation is when people say, manifest your dream partner. Go write in red ink exactly what you want in a partner and put it under your pillow and then it's gonna happen. Bullshit. No. Yes, I believe in getting so clear on the kind of partner you want, put it on your vision board, but also do the internal work to welcome that person in and attract that person and become securely attached.

Alex 32:50

Yeah, because they also have to be the person, or you also have to be the person that is gonna attract them in. Yes. If you're trying to call in someone who's like confident, secure, you know, healed, you also have to be trying to do that within yourself too. Yes, you have to become that person. Yeah. I think that is like a little bit taboo with manifesting. That was just a little side thought, my ADD, because I love like frequency healing and manifestation, but I also believe in God. So it's like a mix of the two, and I love science. It's it all gets to play together.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

It all connected. Yeah. I think where we can not give ourselves everything we need to heal is if we go two all in on one thing. Okay.

Quick Game Spotting Attachment Signals

Alex 33:40

We're gonna do a little game quickly, and it's attachment style or just dating. So I'm gonna name a scenario and you're gonna say if it's an attachment style or if it's just casually dating.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Okay, cool.

Alex 33:55

Someone takes a few hours to respond, and you assume they're losing interest. Anxious attachment. You feel the urge to pull away when someone gets emotionally close. Avoid an attachment. You feel calm and secure with someone, but also slightly bored. That one, it depends.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Could be just stating.

Alex 34:16

What would the attachment style that would go with that?

SPEAKER_02 34:19

If it's five years plus into the relationship, that could be the development of the relationship. Could just be where it's at developmentally, totally normal. Could be some avoidance strategies going on. If you're saying that you're bored, a lot of times that can be because there's something that's not right about the relationship or that you want and you're afraid to communicate it directly. So you'd rather be bored so you could pull away from the relationship.

Alex 34:46

Kind of like disassociate.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, a defense mechanism.

Alex 34:49

Okay. You constantly analyze someone's tone and text.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Anxious attachment, yeah.

Alex 34:58

You got it. You feel overwhelmed when someone expresses serious interest.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Avoid an attachment.

Alex 35:06

You feel extremely drawn to someone emotionally unavailable.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Repetition compulsion and anxious attachment.

Alex 35:15

You feel like you constantly need reassurance.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Anxious attachment.

Alex 35:19

When someone pulls away, you suddenly want them more.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Anxious attachment. Okay. Could be disorganized too. Going back and forth. Okay. Well, that's all the ones I had.

Alex 35:35

I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Oh yeah, oh god.

Breaking Cycles With Beliefs And Skills

Alex 35:52

I guess we've talked about breaking the cycles and stuff, but do you want to get into a little bit more detail about like how to break the pattern of the cycles? Yeah, let's do it. For someone who keeps repeating the same relationship dynamics, what patterns should they look for and how can they break the cycles?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I think there's something I do with all my clients that your listeners could do, which it's called the relationship inventory, where you look at your significant relationships and you look for the patterns. Today we've talked about the attachment styles. You could go and look at, oh, I was showing up with this attachment style and the person I was dating was this. And it's just, I swear to you, there's something so powerful about seeing it written out on paper and just seeing the patterns. It starts there with awareness. And then the next thing in breaking the cycles, we absolutely have to look at our belief systems because we all have beliefs about ourselves and beliefs about relationships. Can you I want to ask you when I say what are your beliefs about relationships? What comes up for you?

Alex 37:02

I what comes up for me immediately was my parents got a divorce when I was little. So I think that in a relationship or a marriage, I didn't really see a healthy dynamic growing up. But luckily, I started dating a guy about my freshman year of high school. And his parents had a very healthy marriage. So that was my first introduction to oh, this is what possible, this is what a healthy marriage looks like, this is how communication should be. And so I feel grateful to be able to have seen that. And then with my past relationships, I I would say for the most part outside looking in compared to most, it was healthy, but I definitely have some intimacy issues.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

And what I would guess is that if we took that file cabinet in your brain and pulled out the drawer that said relationships and we looked at all those beliefs, right, there would be some that are not helping you.

Alex 38:11

Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Especially as a kid of divorce, I see this all the time where it's we have all these beliefs about, well, conflict means the relationship is over. That's a big one.

Alex 38:23

Yeah, that's huge.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

So then if you have that belief, you don't get to actually communicate openly, honestly, directly in your relationships because you're afraid, oh, conflict means the relationship is over. So then it's preventing you from showing up and being really close because you can't really share your full self. Yeah.

Alex 38:43

Yeah. And then my last relationship, he was very easy to be like, oh, this is a problem. It's not gonna work out. Because black and white, I'm also a very straightforward person. I would address what was going on, you know, down the road was like, Can I even address this? Because it might cause conflict, and then the relationship is done. Or he just shuts down, then which in return causes me to shut down. And so it was definitely the whole cycle.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

There's so many beliefs that you're carrying around that came from your past. For everybody listening, we have to get rid of those because it's determining who you're attracted to and who is attracted to you. It's impacting that. So rewiring your brain with healthy beliefs that attract and maintain secure love. And then the next thing people have to do is learn how to have that securely attached, calm, regulated nervous system where you're embodying secure attachment and you have different strategies to maintain emotional regulation. But even more important than the strategies, you just start to have that be your default way of being. You're hanging out in secure attachment the majority of the time. So that's so important. And then I always tell people skills. We need to learn secure communication, secure conflict navigation, how to pace our emotional investment in a relationship. So then there's also skills that need to be learned. But with those four things, it completely changes your dating life and breaks the patterns. And I've helped over a thousand women do this now. Oh, wow. And I get wedding announcements and babies and people in healthy relationships. And it's yeah, it works. It really I just I hope people realize it's never too late. You really can completely change how you show up.

Alex 40:35

Yeah. Whenever you're going through these changes and working on changing the patterns and your attachment style, do you think that probably more so at the beginning, you become a little bit more sensitive because you are trying to your go-to is the secure attachment. But as you're going throughout your day, or even like friends, relationships, it can dysregulate it a little bit. And do you see certain people pull that out of you? Like different attachment styles throughout the day or the week, like how your nervous system regulates throughout the day. Do your attachment styles r regulate throughout the day?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

So you're it's an interesting question. And I think it's helpful to realize that when we have a calm, regulated nervous system, we're much more likely to be able to show up in secure attachment. They're not necessarily connected, but they're not the same thing. Okay. So the more well taken care of you are, you have a good self-care routine, you have that calm nervous system, you're going to be able to show up securely attached so much more

Healing Avoidance Boundaries And Validation

SPEAKER_02 41:47

easily.

Alex 41:47

And then what two attachment styles repel from one another? Do, and I would say more so in friendships, probably than relationships, but do avoidance and anxious-I'm so glad you asked this.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

They are so attracted to each other.

Alex 42:04

Oh, they're attracted to each other.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

They are so attracted to each other because they fit each other's beliefs about love. Because the avoidantly attached person says, Well, I'm never enough. Relationships are hard work. People are so emotional, they're way too much. So as the avoidantly attached person, you attract those anxiously attached people that confirm all your beliefs.

Alex 42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

And then as the anxiously attached person, I can never get enough reassurance. Nobody actually wants a relationship. Nobody wants to commit. And you attract that person. So you, it's very strong pull between anxious and avoidant. Two anxious people can get annoyed by each other pretty quickly.

Alex 42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

I do see that. Yeah. Avoidantly attached people, they just keep showing up in each other's lives for a really long time, but they never fully commit. But then eventually one of them like fades away. But that can go on for years. That's always interesting.

Alex 43:00

I've seen that.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

You know what I'm talking about.

Alex 43:02

They pop in and out like it's too late. Yeah, exactly. As I'm starting to heal more, I'm like, you haven't asked me out yet set time, date. I'm out. I started doing this new thing where I just block people. Good.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

That no, I think that's good.

Alex 43:19

There's a place for that. Protect your energy. Sometimes you have to, because if they just again, I guess to the avoidant in them, but also in me. I'm like, I can't handle this anymore as I like start to grow.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yes, you're healing and you're clearing space. Talk to my clients about that. That you have to close your energy leaks. Even if you're not in communication with someone, if you know your energy feels that there's a door open somewhere with a past relationship, it's not good for you. It's blocking the space, it's blocking your emotional availability. So you want to protect that relationship space in your life because it's A sacred space. No one should just have access to it whenever they want to pop back in.

Alex 44:05

So people that find outsources in relationships or friendships, whether it's validation through social media, gossiping, and trying to get reassurance from friends, there's so many different outlets that you can go to. Is that more so an anxious attachment?

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Absolutely. There's a lot of outsourcing your self-worth with anxious attachment. Also avoid an attachment, but it can be done in different ways. But yeah, the anxiously attached person, they're counting their likes, they're seeing who saw their story, they're they can really be looking for that external validation to feel good about themselves. Anxious is more external validation. And then Avoidant will pretend like they don't need it. Even though deep down they do, but they'll spend a lot of time just being like, Yep, I'm good. I don't need it. I don't care. That's me.

Alex 45:01

So if you are an avoidant, sorry I'm making this about me right now. But I hope you guys relate. If you are an avoidant, how do you heal that side of you?

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yeah, the attachment, the avoidant attachment, or that need or the self-worth piece.

Alex 45:18

The avoidant attack.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

The avoidant attachment. Okay. Yeah. So with avoidant attachment, it's that same process of we have to go to the root trauma. We have to start there. Revisit the root trauma. Get that awareness. Where did you learn that it wasn't really safe for you to feel your feelings? That it wasn't safe for you to depend on others. Revisit that at the root, process that. And then it's all about we need new belief systems, right? And baby steps for the avoidantly attached person. It's okay. Can we have you practice reaching out to people? Maybe you start with somebody really safe and you share something emotionally tough and you start having corrective experiences. Oh, it's safe for me to depend on people. They don't tell me I'm too much or they don't abandon me. I can depend on other people and maintain closeness. So it's really about that.

Alex 46:15

What if you have practiced that and continue to practice it, but you see a repetitive pattern of people breaking that trust or not making you feel safe?

SPEAKER_02 46:27

We attract certain people into our lives based on our past trauma, based on our attachment styles, right? So when you are healing and you are trying to show up differently, if you're going to those people that you attracted, you might get responses that maintain that past trauma. Do you know what I'm saying? So you have to really intentionally, when you are showing up differently, let's go to people who can also show up differently, who can meet you there. Because otherwise, you're gonna go, well, my false beliefs are true when they're not. It's just that past version of you that had more of those strategies that weren't helpful, avoid an attachment in your case. You were good at attracting people that liked those strategies that you had.

Alex 47:16

Yeah, it makes total sense because I always say I attract people that are projects.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah. The wounded birds. I have friends like that. Yeah. Like you have so many wounded birds in your life. It's so much work. Yes. So when you're trying out new ways of being, go to people who are secure or go to people that it's safe. And okay, I can be met with a healing response here.

Alex 47:41

Maybe they're starting from the beginning of their healing journey, and it's well, a lot of people that they attracted are in more the anxious space, then what would your best advice be?

SPEAKER_02 47:52

But I'll be really honest. I think this is myself and a lot of people I talk to. You can go through a season where your friend group is really small. My friend group now looks nothing like it did five years ago. And you have to be okay with that. My friend group's changing and start making space for secure reciprocal relationships. Reciprocal being the key word. Start making space, getting to know those people.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

So it's okay to be lonely for a bit. It's so pour into that relationship with yourself, start making space for new people, lean into the people that you do have. Could be family, it could be your mom, it could be your cousin. I don't know. But a lot of us have at least one secure person in our life. Yeah. Nurture that.

Alex 48:49

Like having a coach or a mentor or a professional.

Therapy Versus AI Counseling And Closing

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Go to therapy. Yeah. Go do a coaching program. Go to therapy. Please don't rely just on AI. I know you guys are thinking about doing that. That's not what I recommend. You need another human being. You really do.

Alex 49:05

That's so interesting because, from a psychological standpoint, so many people are going to Chat GPT or OpenAI for advice on everything, but more so therapy side. There's some statistic of the most searched thing through Chat GBT was in therapy talk.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

And to that I would say, does ChatGPT have a nervous system? Because a lot of our healing is actually felt. It's actually through that therapeutic relationship of a calm, secure nervous system holding yours and you getting to feel that. And for you to be able to allow yourself to meet that nervous system as well. AIC is great. Don't get me wrong. I think it's cool for researching stuff. Just don't rely on it as your healing tool.

Alex 49:55

Please don't. There's something different about having some a human to speak to, especially like therapists, psychologists, and someone that specializes in certain things. I think that is also important too, as if like someone that specializes in the nervous system regulation, like I'm going through a course right now for that, and that's like her main thing. And then like someone with like I could come to you for the intimacy, like attachment style. Something I experienced at the beginning of my journey was I had a therapist, but I felt like I had so much to talk about in so many different places. So there'd be like myself and my past trauma or my friendships and then my relationships and then my week. And so it was just so many different things. And so having those specialized people really helps you like break it down and just focus on that alone.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

I agree. I do feel like when you're really focused on one area of your life, you make the most progress. And what's beautiful is that when there, I think it's a rising tide lifts all boats. When you go all in on one area, it will positively impact all the other areas of your life. Yeah, definitely. And not all therapists and psychologists really specialize in relationships, but not everybody's gonna talk about attachment styles and repetition compulsion. And you, if you are focused on relationships, find that person that specializes.

Alex 51:28

Yeah. Okay, last question is do you recommend that all couples go see counseling or have a therapist at some point in time?

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Absolutely. My husband and I went to premarital counseling, best time. And we were so in such a good place, and it was fun, and it was still really important for us to do. There's something very powerful about having that third party. And I know, of course, that my bubble's a little interesting. It's a lot of other psychologists, but I know a lot of people that just go for maintenance, just a monthly, hey, it's a space being held for you and your partner. And sometimes you don't even know what you need to talk about until you get to that space and realize that it's being held for you. It's proactive. I think it's really helpful.

Alex 52:20

To almost get on top of holding anything in or building resentment. Preventative work. I think that needs to be more normalized and not looked at as a weakness.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Do you only go to the dentist when you have a cavity?

Alex 52:33

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Some of us might actually. Some of us might hate the dentist so much that we do that. Literally.

Alex 52:42

Well, I think that's everything I had to ask. I could keep talking, but the time's done.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

So thank you. No, I think, yeah, the only thing I would say is just that realization that you can break the cycles of generational trauma. And I feel like that's our generation that we're doing that. And you can do it. It's hard and it's worthwhile. And I really believe that the quality of your life is the quality of your relationships when it comes down to it. So I think it's so easy to throw ourselves into work, career, our body, our health goals. All those things are great, but not at the expense of avoiding healing your relational trauma.

Alex 53:28

And generational trauma. I think that's huge because all the work that you're putting into it from the past, that's been something that's been carried for probably years, generations before you. So if you're able to break that repeated pattern, you're saving years. You don't know even know how many years in the future of lineage from repeating the same thing that you had to go through.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

There's something so beautiful about securely attached kids. It's very healing. And getting to see that and know, wow, they're gonna go on and have healthy relationships.

Alex 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

It's amazing.

Alex 54:10

I know, I love that. My little sister just had her second little girl, and we like FaceTime all the time. And it's just so beautiful to see like my sister, she put in the work, and so now like they're just the most like secure, emotionally attached kids. I love that. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it makes my heart so happy. Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

It's so worthwhile.

Alex 54:34

Yeah. Where can everybody find you if they want coaching or to find you on social media?

SPEAKER_02 54:41

The best place is Let's Get Vulnerable, my podcast. It's available everywhere. Podcasts are aired. I'm also on social media at drmorgan coaching, Dr. Morgan Coaching on Instagram. If you want to know about working with me, just go to the podcast. I talk about it there. Thank you so much for having me.

Alex 55:03

Thanks for coming. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I love your questions. Very thoughtful.

Alex 55:06

Oh, thank you. Well, I hope you guys learned as much as I did. I love this. And make sure to check her out on all of her socials. I will link them below. And I will see you guys next week. Bye.