How Ashley Westwood Broke Indian Football Hearts!

One man has been India’s nemesis at International level. That man is the former Afghanistan and Hong Kong boss Ashley Westwood. 

💥 In this EXPLOSIVE no holds barred episode, Joe Morrison and Shruthi Nair sit down with football coach Ashley Westwood as he tells them about what really happened during his interview for the India National Team job! 

Ashley expresses his brutally honest opinion on Khalid Jamil’s tenure as head coach plus his secret to beating India both with Afghanistan and Hong Kong. He also explains how to build a football club from scratch and what he has planned next in the game. 

And finally Ashley identifies the three most pressing issues in Indian Football and what his solutions are.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Joe Morrison & Manas Gera
Studio Engineer & Editor: Manny Peñamora
Executive Producers: Joe Morrison and Ian Carless
Produced by: W4 Podcast Studio

Transcript

Meet Ashley Westwood

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Knew he wasn't between value, but the Indian in the studio was.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

So I made the lads with like a rucksack with actually the boots, the training kit and the match kit.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Just in case the luggage didn't turn up. I think there's an abundance of talent in India.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I don't think there's an abundance of mentality.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I said it's on the long time you go on for one of these shit walks around the car park. Anyone here said make sure you take your umbrella, mate, it's gonna rain. The thing I regret is not being India twice with doing the million salvage. It should have been twice. Did you choose that location? Wait, Joseph because it was so far away. 2000 above sea level, knowing that a few Indians would get vertical and they did. But I think India now have come out and you know they're trying to now give a long term to a coach. Unfortunately, India they've picked the wrong coach.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Alright, hello and welcome to Thai Football. Today we have someone who's known as the Kryptonite for India. Any guesses? Any guesses?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yeah, I know the answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

He's sitting right in front of you, isn't he? Exactly. We have Ashley Westwood in the studio. Alright, Ashley, why do you hate India so much?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

No, I didn't. Always loved India, to be honest. Went there probably by default, I'd say, um, with the Venkis from Blackburn, got sacked at Blackburn, and where there's always a problem, there's always an opportunity. And Bangalore FC started and ended up in India and fell in love, India, to be honest, and kind of done some good stuff and then didn't end up how I liked and then always found it in my uh what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I didn't didn't take it.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Well I thought when I went to India, we won the league twice, won the cup, lost the league on the second season, which I'm still bitterly fuming with uh to Monbagan with 10 minutes to go. That was with DFC, yeah? BFC, Sean Runy's fault, didn't mark his man, set piece, five minutes to go. Otherwise remembers the deal. Exactly. I think it was brilliant centre back from Monbagan, scored 85th minute, uh 24,000, Cantiva Stadium. So remember it fondly.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Otherwise, would have won the league three out of three and then turned a new contract down and and thought I would go on to bigger and better things and ended up going back to India and being in with Afghanistan and Hong Kong.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Was that your best spell? Or you would it was it your best spell? Was it your favourite spell?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Was it both? That spell with BFC. I think definitely uh one of my fondest memories with a brand new club starting from zero. First game was like 4,000 fans, last game was 28,000, and and just the way the city and and the culture embraced football. Um, and I'd really fond memories of it of it just growing. I think youngish crowd, Bangalore as an upcoming city. You know, everyone connected with the club was great. I know Kim Al just left this week. I think we've seen that on our post. He's been there 12 years old.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, this is the video editor, sort of social media guy who's been there, I think, since the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, and just just grew the club, even stupid things where when I got there, it was like, Have you got a mascot? And they're like, What's a mascot? Yeah. I said everyone's got to have a mascot. And we came up with the uh idea of Eddie the Eagle, because Bangalore, the uh the kites and whatever they are, right? And we just you know, just stupid things.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Is that how you pick a mascot?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Just randomly, just they didn't have one, some association with the city or yeah, and it was just about embracing the football and the crowd and just just stupid little things like that, and you know, you have a hand in having a mascot. I think it was one of the first mascots ever in India, but definitely in Indian football. There was there's no mascots.

Club Versus Country Coaching

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Yeah. Did it feel like I'm trying to think of the equivalent, like a like a tech startup? You know how you you hear of these guys like Zuckerberg back in the day where it was just a real small team of people together working all hours, everyone did everything. You know, you weren't just strictly coach, you had to do a bit of this and a bit of that. Did it feel like a startup?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah, 100%. I mean, when I got there, it was like, you know, where's your clubhouse or where's your things where players report? And they were like, nah, Indian lads come in on the bus, drop your bag at the side of the field, train and go home. And you're like, Well, that's not a football club. So then you find, you know, a building at the end of the thing, and you're like, Well, this could be our you know, reporting thing, this could be our change room, this could be our kitchen, this could be our physio room. I was painting walls and stuff, you know, getting it, getting really getting the yeah, honestly, getting the building ready.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Two weeks before the first game, I'm going around the city handing out flyers. We've got a game coming. Do you want to come and see our game?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Well, they're very different to what you're used to in Aston Villa and Burnley and all of that. But the question is, how did a Manchester lad end up in India and then the rest of Asia? What brought you here?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Like I like I said, I was played football all my life in England. Um, went into coaching, assistant manager at three championship clubs in Portsmouth, uh, Blackpool, Blackburn Rovers, and when he got sacked, which everybody does, inevitable in football. It was owned by Venkies and you know the chance to to go to India and be uh my first kind of head coach came around and it's just something I jumped to and thought if it goes wrong I'll go back. And as it happened, it was successful, and I ended up getting stuck in Asia for even till now.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Do you prefer do you prefer club coaching or national team coaching?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I prefer club from uh why just from the improvements you can get. Uh when you're a hands-on coach, you know, you're talking you're looking at diet and you know, GPS and periodisation and and training model, you know, you get the the players for 10-11 months, even on an off-season, you get to you know periodise them and you know, bit of rest, bit of programming, whatever. And you can improve a lot.

Fitness Gaps In National Camps

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Let me ask you this: do you find with the national teams that you've managed around Asia, do you find, and I bet you this is not the same, definitely not the same in Europe, and certainly not the teams that are probably in the top 40 in the world. Do you find players arrive at camp with completely different levels of particularly fitness, but a whole lot of other things?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Do you find there's a wider variation? That's the biggest challenge. Certainly the level I've managed at, you know, sometimes if you look at Afghanistan, people are part-time, they don't even have a club, you know, they're not um not training day-to-day, some some are. Even with Hong Kong, we have you know 13 players that come from the Chinese Super League, you have players that play in the Hong Kong Premier League, the fitness levels are different. A lot of the Chinese Super League players are subs. There's only two or three starters, so you can guarantee their fitness, but the subs don't play. So you have to look at the whole loading before they come into camp, and then you can't hit everyone with the same training uh mod. Otherwise, they'll just break down. It's a breakdown. So you have to look at like he's done this, he needs that. This lad's match day minus one, this lad's match day, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

So you feel you have more control at club level.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah, club level you can determine your fate a lot more. Um, you can you know generalise everybody because you've got them under your you know your umbrella and you know what they're doing. National team, unless you're doing you know the top 40 in the world where you know for a fact they've been doing it well. You know, if you're coming from England, Premier League, you know for a fact you've not got to think about fitness, you're not gonna think about breaking down, you're not gotta think about pre-ab or anything like that. You just you know you've got a blanket where everyone's the same, and you know straight away they can come into your team, you can put your training ground on, you can put your you know high-intensity sessions if you want, and they're not gonna break down with national team at the level I've been at. You've got to be really mindful of it.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Shridy has one question and one question only for you. She wants to know the question.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

The inside words in my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

I love mansplaining.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, stop mansplaining.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

I love mansplaining to Shridi. I still don't fully know what this word means, but I love mansplaying. I mansplain to you all the time, don't I?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah, you do, and that's not a great thing. But I don't know what your question for me was. But but you know what? I have to say this. We had a Miri in the studio, and that was the day when we ended up bitching about you a lot, really, in this studio.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Miri was bitching about you, but yeah, yeah. He's never been run as hard in his life.

unknown 8:11

Yeah.

The Plan To Beat India

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Miri wasn't bitching about you, but the Indian in the studio was. We were mad that you ended up beating India in India with the Afghanistan team, something we did not see coming. Did you see it coming? Did you expect that result? And how did you do it?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Come on, what's the background story? What's the inside scoop on that?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

100% seen it coming. My assistant, Matty Holland, when the Afghanistan came up, he was like, Come on, Ash, we're not doing that. I said, Listen, we've got India in our group, we've got to do it because we'll definitely beat India. Trust me, I said we'll beat India. And the only thing I regret is not beating India twice with Drew 0-0 in Saudi. Oh my god, missed the biggest chance you've ever seen. We should have beat him twice, but regardless of how we did it, it was just logistical planning. We knew we played in Saudi Arabia, we played in ABBA, which was planned. Far corner, the furthest corner of the kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

How many planes did you have to do to get to ABA?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

We we went after the game, we flew from Riyadh, I think, to Abu Dhabi. We went from Abu Dhabi straight to Bangalore. Um, we hit the hotel at knowing that the logistics at Bangalore, knowing that we could leave the airport, walk across the car park, straight into the Taj Hotel. Yeah. Is it true you almost missed the connecting flight? We had 45 minutes to connect. And when we booked it, they were saying you cannot, you can't make it. I said, listen, we're making it.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Because they shut the gate, don't they? What is it? Uh is it 30 minutes before the city?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

So the big thing about that, probably my Indian TV, my travelling, travelling all around the world like extensively, knowing that when you check into your flight in Abu Dhabi, they give you two boring passes. So the only risk for me was your luggage won't come. So I made the lads pack a rucksack with actually the boots, the training kit, and the match kit.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Just in case the luggage didn't turn up.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Really?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

To plan ahead with yeah, everyone had to put boots, the training kit to train, and the match kit. Because I said I think our luggage won't turn up because we connect from Abu Dhabi. No, it was sorry, it was Riyadh to Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi to Bangalore.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Why would they keep the match there? It makes no sense logistically for anyone who will be able to do that. In ABBA.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Did you choose that location? We chose that, yeah. Oh. Because it was so far away. 2,000 above sea level, knowing that a few Indians would get Vertigo, and they did.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

No, seriously. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

So we went there two weeks before to acclimatize, and then at the time, uh Igor Stimak, they were talking about India having a chartered flight, a private jet, and I thought that was gonna happen. Never in a million years is that gonna happen. So they flew in two days before, and they trained, and I think I don't know who it was, but I think one or two players were sick on a training ground.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Mission accomplished, then so you can't breathe.

Travel Hacks And Kit In Rucksacks

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Um, our lads, you get two days, three days were climatised, and we started running fitness, uh, whatever, and you get used to it. I I the first thing I did when I got to ABBA was I went for a run, and I was like, because that I used to run quite a bit, thinking it felt like someone sat in your chest, you just can't breathe. So it was uh it was a big advantage.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

But that was the that was the first game. And the victory was in the the the second game. So at what point uh by the way, did you share a hotel with the Indian team? That was Were you in the same hotel? Was that right?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, that was a big mistake. Basically, it was in Goati, and the um I don't know the the state they hosted the game, and there was some rally on in Goati at the time, so it meant that both teams had to share the same hotel, and it didn't really bother me that, but I made a big deal of it when we got there to and it was it was madness snapping at people saying this is a disgrace. I'm gonna call AFC and and claim match fixing, you know, lads are gonna like I said it's fine, okay. We're gonna lose 4-0, everyone's gonna fix the game, we have to move as hotels, just put a lot of pressure on. So then pressure on who? The Goati Federation, this the state, yeah. The state, right? So they were like, So I said, Right, that's it, we'll stay, but we're only staying if we get this, this, and this, and they crumbled. Uh, I said, right, I want the Indian menu right now. So they brought me the Indian food menu. I said, we want all that plus this. Um, so basically, and we had the run of the hotel, which you had a proper hissy fit, so you give them a hard time.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Wait, wait, wait a second.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Sorry, sorry, Shuri. So, what you're saying was they had a better menu laid out, better conditions, better rooms.

Altitude, Acclimatisation And Psyops

SPEAKER_01 12:35

I wanted to know exactly what they were doing and then make sure that we did it better. Right, okay. So, for starters, the hotel's in a it's an overtel in Goaati, it's in like a square, it's like a courtyard in the middle of it. We've been there many times in the ISL. And you have to walk all the way around the hotel into these small little function rooms for your dinner. And those rooms are next to each other. So I was like, we're not in that function room. I said, but we're having everything the Indian boys are eating, plus, we're eating in the buffet restaurant, which is which is what all the lads want to do. But as a as a coach, you normally want to you know customise the food, chicken breasts, whatever. But what I did was I placed us in the restaurant where all the Indian boys want to be, and every day when they come down for their breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, we're in the main restaurant, and we're just waving at them as they're walking around to the function room games to eat blamed rice and and shit chicken.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

But that that's uh what do we call it in Special Forces and CIA?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Psyops. That's that's what they call it, no, it's in the CIA. It was just a mental thing, and there were so many little stupid things. You know, I'd always place myself in there in the lobby working on laptops with my assistant, and I did uh the morning of the game, uh, I knew exactly what Indy was gonna do. You get up for breakfast, you go back to your rooms, and at half eleven on the dot, you go for one of these shit walks around the car park. So, what I did is it's it's a fact, and I knew it was coming. So we went for breakfast, and then after breakfast, I got all our lads in the pool playing head tennis, just having a crack. So I pulled a big rope across the pool, we put bibs on it, we're all having head tennis, just pissing around. It was like something like a scene at a Top Gun with you know Wolf and Maverick I5 and all that shit, and I'm just just just the noise we were making was unbelievable. All the Indian boys were in the room looking down, almost having a laugh. And then I said to my assistant, I said, we've got to get in reception for 11, because I guarantee you at half eleven, the Indian boys are gonna go for a walk. And we'll be in reception working after having this big crack in the in the pool, and they'll come down broken. So we sat in reception, and and I don't know why I did it, I Googled, and I you can never be accurate, and I knew it was gonna rain from my thing. So Sonna'll, I remember it. Sonna walked down, reception, he's always on time, he's always early. I said, Sonna, don't tell me going for one of these shit walks around the car park. And he went, Yeah, I said, make sure you take your umbrella, mate, because it's gonna rain. And I swear to God, all the Indian boys come down. They walked outside and within three minutes came back inside and started to rain. And I went, Fucking hell, your coach is having a nightmare, mate. And I was going like that to him, just laughing.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

So you were on the psychological games, you're like right from the game. But by the way, you know what it reminds me of? The crazy gang. Wimbledon. Yeah, yeah. It was just it was just stupid, just little things would just fall into place. And then sorry to interrupt you, Ashley. I think it's worth explaining that what the crazy gang, the crazy gang and Wimbledon in particular, were the team that punched above their weight in the 80s, yeah, weren't they? Terry Feeling. Terry Feeling, Vinnie Jones, uh, that entire gang. They didn't have the talents that Manchester United, Liverpool's, and all the rest of it of the of the league had, but they punched above their weight by just being a great collective. And it's something I wanted to ask you actually. I think there's an abundance of talent in India. I don't think there's an abundance of mentality. We're talking about football here, and I'm talking about players. Would you agree with that statement? Yeah, I mean the mental strength required to be competitive at the highest level.

Hotel Mind Games And Momentum

SPEAKER_01 15:59

But I think you can you can you can make it, you can breed it. Uh some of what we did at Bangalore, some I definitely did with Afghanistan, and some I did with Hong Kong. You know, your culture, your environment, you know, the mentality, the belief you can give.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

And is that is that picking the individuals, saying that look, this guy's got mental strength, that one hasn't, and they're equal ability.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

So I just think he's uh just creating it from within, just having that you know, team environment, that culture, that belief, you know, the togetherness, you know, he's always in that film is it the 300 or whatever with the with the soldiers and uh Spartans, all that stuff, you know. That's a small team. You I watch romp comms, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

You seem like the kind, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, I believe it can make it, and you can you can love that within. You know, that India game, I thoroughly believe we were gonna win. We were losing one nil after time. So I'm telling you, don't worry. And we got a penalty in the last minute we won.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

So was that again, was that because you knew you were stronger as a team, or was it all of these mind games you'd played, you knew exactly what's going on in their heads at that time?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah, I think it was just just pure belief. Um, did you get that from the the early days of Manchester United? 100%. Um, that environment, you know, that that breed is something that Man United are trying to recreate now. It doesn't happen. You know, Ferguson was incredible. Everyone talks about when Ferguson left, it went downhill, but it wasn't just Ferguson that downhill. If you look at what happened, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Ryan Giggs, Roy Keane, all the culture retired at this almost the same time. And that was all come up from the youth. You know, they had a big youth team that was instilled from Eric Harrison from within. So when those players come in, as a manager, you know, you don't have to pick up on things because it's we don't do that around here. You know, our culture is this. So if if someone's stepping out of the line and oh, Louis Saar, uh not Louis Saar, Wilfred Saha went to Man United and couldn't survive, you know, went on to be a top player in the Premier League, but because he wasn't doing things correctly, you'd have Gary Neville, uh Roy Keith clipping him, so the manager doesn't have to get involved all the time. But that was the culture of Manchester United, and that's something I've always tried to create where I've gone. You know, you you you have a culture of this is not what happens around it, it's not acceptable. And you don't have to step in all the time as a manager because you you create that culture from the start.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

And how important is it for the coach to sort of understand the culture as well, right? The the problem with India we discussed was they keep changing the coaches also often that by the time the the players get used to the coach, the players get used to the way of things, it's it's a new coach again. I mean, we saw that uh for the last, what was it, the last four coaches maybe? Do you think it's important that stability is sort of important?

SPEAKER_01 18:37

I think first and foremost, you need a coach to understand Indian football, understand how to create that culture. I think India now have come out and you know they're trying to now give a long term to a coach. Unfortunately for India they've picked the wrong coach, let's be honest. You're talking about Khaled Jamille. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Why is it wrong?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

It doesn't know football, in my eyes, in my opinion. Port for a manager to you know, we have in history anyway. Um, but if you're talking of somebody that can create the brand of football that's needed for Indian football, then then you only have to watch football and watch how we coaches for me. It's it's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

But they are any gossip, what what's your history with Khaled Jamil?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

No, there's uh I got I got fined for this, so I can't try and say too much. I uh you if you look back at the old Bangalore days when uh I think there was a plastic bottle thrown onto the pitch that hit the dugout and Kalajamil claimed it hit him on the head and and didn't roll around and put a bandage on his head and there's beef. Not just incredible, it's something out of faulty towers carrying it was like a carry-on film.

Belief, Comebacks And Culture

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Like I here's my opinion on Khaled Jamil. The the positive is the cultural understanding, you know. Now I know you're gonna say that he uh was he actually born in he was born. I don't know if you wait. Uh he grew up there, didn't he? Was he born there as well? I'm not I'm not sure. But it was it was just when he was a kid, but anyway, it's that it's speaking the lingo and the cultural thing of the players. I think that's a bonus. I think that's a positive for a for a coach. However, the negative is I think these recent games have shown him to be a little bit one-dimensional in his tactics and his strategy.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

No, if you if you do due diligence and you look all the way back to his Mumbai days, you know, the time wasting, the cheating, the dark tactics of trying to win football matches, then then you'll you'll understand.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

You think he's corrupt then?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

But no, no, that's what you want. That's what I want. Not not in the modern day game, it it doesn't matter. The dark arts, I love the dark arts, we've just been talking about psychological doesn't it doesn't work in modern day football with with referees and VAR and and whatever. You you you have to you know play it ethically correct. Um you can have dark arts regards, you know, fouls here and there, whatever, but keep it going down in the 89th minute. Yeah, the the the cultural stuff is like you said, it's it'll be one-dimensional. And you have to um know Indian football inside out, which he which he does to be fair. But can he develop? We'll see. He's got the keys, he's got the you know, the the position.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Well, you don't think he can?

SPEAKER_01 21:15

In my opinion, no. And I know players that that won't play for him, so that tells you everything.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Do you think that your honesty sometimes goes against you? I mean, like we all love watching Roy Keane and it's easier when you finish playing and you're not in the game and you finish managing. I don't think Roy Keane will go back into management. Maybe he will as an assistant or something to somebody. But do you think sometimes your honesty, your brutal honesty goes against you?

Lessons From Manchester United

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, I mean, I've always been like that. Uh say it as it is. Speak truth to power. But what happens with that is the players like you, you always tell them the truth. Uh, wherever I've gone, you know, I I pride myself on I believe, I'm sure there would be, but there won't be many players that will say I didn't get on with him, he didn't tell me the truth, you know, he told me as it was. And I always think. The test of a of a good coach is speak to the players. You know, wherever you leave, when you leave, there's always a reason you leave, whether that's you've been sacked, whether that's you resign, whether that's not you've started a new contract. And as soon as you leave or you turn somebody down, they always have to try and give a reason why you've left, and it's not their fault. It's it's his fault. But I always say go and speak to the players. And if you speak to the players, I believe they'll they'll they won't have a bad word about me. And that's all you care about. You know, your your players, your camaraderie, your team spirit, your environment, and your will to win. I believe he's strong, and there's always rumours about you know he's honest, he's he's hard to work with, but in my eyes, it's all bollocks. Just speak to the players, simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Would you ever consider coaching Indio?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

You can close to yeah, many times. I Cushil Dar, so I met him at least three or four times. I got offered. The the weird thing was when we won the league at Bangalore, I got offered the India job. Um Sergeant Jindel, JSW, and Path Jindel called Mustafa and Mustafa called me and said, India are offering you the job. How are you gonna go? And I went, Well, until they offer me the job, is there's not a decision to be made. And they went, No, Praful Patel has called Path. And they want permission to put you in the Indian job. And I said, Well, when it happens, then then I'll decide.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

By the way, was it was this a dual position like Man Lau Mark?

India’s Coaching Choices Debated

SPEAKER_01 23:20

As always, if you would leave BFC. I was gonna leave BFC. Path called to say they want you, you know, we set this club up to improve Indian football, and we believe you go on to India we'll improve Indian football. And it was all done, to be fair. And then there was a meeting, it was a case of ticking the boxes. I think it was me, Ricky Herbert, and East Bengal manager. Uh at that time. What year was this? Trevor, Trevor Morgan. Trevor Morgan, are you? They were the three candidates that were getting it, and it was it was agreed that I was getting it. So they was this about 2014, maybe 15. Yeah, I think so. Before Stephen Constantine. So what happened was I'll never forget it because the reason I know this is because Shrini was the team manager of India at the time, and he told me. So this might be dish in the dirt, I don't care, because it's again honest. Love it. I don't actually care. So I was getting it 100%, and there were three candidates, like say me, Ricky Herbert, Trevor Morgan, and it was Bai Chambutia that had apparently, so let's say allegedly had been with Proful Patel in the morning or the the day of the eyes to the final, and he didn't want me to get it, and this is what I was told. Something to do with football agency, whatever. So in the meeting, the the three candidates were prepared for presentation, and then I think half an hour before the meeting, Brighton, Bruce came in and said, No, you have to present Stephen Constantine. And everyone's like, Stephen Constantine, what are you about? He's not on the shortlist, he wasn't on the shortlist. Oh, and then the first thing Bajamu stood and said, Right, I've spoken to Buffalo Patel, and the candidate for the next job has to have international experience, and that ruled me out. So I hadn't that managed the national team. So they went, he's out, and they only left Stephen Constantine and Ricky Herbert, and they've learned he needs to have experience winning football before, blah blah blah. And it was Stephen Constantine got announced, and everyone was like, What? It was it was Ash's job. So that happened, and that would be Steven's second spell, wouldn't it? Second, yeah. So that was take that however you want. That's exactly what happened in what I got told. And Stephen Constein came in through Baits of Beauty here, and um, I'm not sure what agent did the deal, but I just leave it at that. I do.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Um, let me ask you this then. Obviously, what a year in a very bad way for Indian football. The the shit that's been going on, the nonsense that's still going on right as we sit here now. Three things, uh, because there are a thousand things wrong with India, Indian football. Three things, if you could nail the top three things that are wrong, the top three problems that desperately need addressed with Indian football, what would what would they be in your eyes?

SPEAKER_01 25:55

I think number one, too much money. That sounds daft.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Um they have too much money. I think so. That's new.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

You look at Indian uh football, you look at Indian culture, you look at money and you know what people earn. You know, uh I don't know exactly again, you know, a top paid office job with a degree might be 50,000 rupees a month. These Indian boys are getting two lakhs uh easy a week, they're getting three crores a year. You know, I've seen so many players that have got so much money so quick, and then the hunger of of football goes. Nishu Kumar left Bangalore sold you know to have Kerala blasters of five-year contract on 1.5 uh crores a year from you know from three, four lakhs a year, and all of a sudden you you that's a lot of money in India. And uh push money for sure, facilities and infrastructure, 100%. You know, as a kid in England, you walk out your front door, there's a there's a park there, and this is not India's fault. It's it's built up, it's hard, there's not a lot of space. But your first experience of football, if it's enjoyable, you come back. You know, if you're sitting in a rickshaw and you're driving an hour and a half to training, yeah, then are you gonna do that every single day?

Money, Facilities And Motivation

SPEAKER_00 27:08

And it's almost paradoxical, the reason number one and two, right? Yeah, on the one hand, a lot of money is there, but then it's not being used for infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah, you just need so much more facilities. You know, you need to step out your door and be able to access a pitch, an AstroTurf pitch, you know, put it on top of an apartment, whatever you want. But go to and just play. You know, I know Man United were so successful when I was there, you know, they had a little bit of a slump within youth and they went back just straight to kind of like street football. You know, just enjoy playing football, learn from just playing.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

At a macro level, I totally agree with you. I think from the clubs themselves, they need to have more ownership of their grounds so they can maximise revenues and money and have control of it. And I think I think we're still in a situation where there's only is it one or two clubs, professional clubs in India, actually own their own stadiums?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah, and and that's that's an agey thing to be honest. You know, even across China, Hong Kong, you know, the government's own the stadiums, you know, you can get kicked off because there's going to be a rally or something, but which destroys the community element of the club. Yeah, and that's you know, you look at Mumbagan, the fortune's got you know super cash, you know. Can you just put set aside some of your budget and build your own stadium, build your own training ground so you own it, so you don't have anyone telling you you can't use it.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Why is it not happening? I mean, it's not a money problem, is it?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

No, I think space, of course. I don't understand the government's colour stages, politics. You you you never know. But it's always, you know, the sports ministers here, the sports ministers there, there's different states that that own this, own that. I know um I think Northeast are trying to change things with with Mandar. You know, they're building their own their own stuff. But until you own your own training ground, until you own your own stadium, you can't have control and you can't, you know, do what you want.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Generally, there's right. So too much money, players, infrastructure on number three?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Definitely the availability, but then just I don't know. I think obviously, you know, there's there's not a clear pathway really is between the leagues. You know, there's always this fight and ISL fights, I League fights, what's the best league, what's the national league. You know, back before the ISL started, you know, it was clear the the I League was was the number one league and it all filtered in. So you need to get the the politics sorted with the leagues, you know, what where is it going?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Well, that's kind of dipping into where I was going to go next, which is the three solutions. Yeah. So if you were to it doesn't have to be solutions, by the way, the three things that you would do if you had a magic wand for Indian football, it doesn't have to be connected to the three problems you've identified. But what would be the three solutions?

Stadiums, Ownership And Control

SPEAKER_01 29:41

The three things you'd sort out immediately to England and talk about England because that's that's kind of how England's great, whatever. But it's a pyramid system, in it. You know, you have all these leagues, there's thousands of leagues, there's thousands of teams. Evo stick, northern league. Yeah, it's it I mean my son plays in England, he's like step six, step step seven, whatever. You know, they get hundred-150 pounds a week, whatever, but everything filters into the Premier League, and that's governed by by one body, uh obviously under the umbrella of the English FA, which AIFF, if you like, and then pushed into an entity of the Premier League, which is what they try to the ISL, but nothing in India funnels in one pyramid system. Of course, it's massive, you know. From you know, I've travelled eight hours to get to a game three flights if you if you fly um from Bangalore to to go and play somewhere like Jump Shapo, it's challenging, yeah, of course. But then you have regionalized leagues and it all funnels into one league, and everyone has that aspiration of getting into the Premier League, everyone should have the aspiration of maybe getting to the ISL, whatever it is, but it's all fracturised and and it doesn't go one way.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

So it's but do you think it should be ISL, the the North Star, so to speak, for India?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Whatever it is, you know, that's not for me to decide. But it needs to be a league promotional relegation, it just has to be a usually uh clear direction. I mean, you've got to have a ladder. The the A League in Australia, which has spent a lot of time, has never had promotion relegation. I think they're trying something now with the the second league, but football there's rubbish because it's not clear, it's not you know, you have all these people. If you if you grow up in England as a kid, you look in and you're going, I want to be Ryan Giggs. And you know that if you start at this level, it funnels up and one day you might get to the top. But what what do you do in India? You know, where where you you know you might play a going league as a young kid, but if it all funnels into whether it's ISL, whether it's I league, whatever, then you have a dream, you have an aspiration, you can push to go there, and it's clear and it's it's identified.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I think uh I would add to that the shop window element of your top league. So in England, for example, uh teams from the championship get promoted to the Premier League, which is reaching the promised land. It's as simple as that. And there are players that you would go, eh, in the championship. When they get into the Premier League, they start getting picked up from these teams because people go, like, I didn't think that he would be able to step up to this level, and he can, and now all of a sudden he's a Premier League player. It's I said it. There's players that don't, by the way, but there's a lot that do.

Fixing The Pyramid And Pathways

SPEAKER_01 32:08

I seen that with Eugene Lingdo. Um, he was playing for Randajid United in in the I League, and then all of a sudden I looked at him thinking, I think he was 28 at the time we signed him, and all of a sudden he he ended up being the the top purchased player into the ISL in the draft at the time, 90 odd lakhs, and he played for India because we got him into a system. People were looking at it and thinking, oh, he's no good. But you got him into our system, into our way of environment, culture, and he excelled and he ended up making his debut for India at 29.30 and being the most expensive player into the I uh ISL draft. But that's like what you're seeing, you know. You got these championship players that you know, you only look at I think it was Bournemouth, wasn't it? That went all through the leagues. You got I think there was some I can't remember exactly the name, the Bournemouth League Two went League One, went championship, went Premier League, and one of or a couple of players went all the way through four yeah and stayed in, and then next thing they're playing in the Premier League, and they're in League Two four years earlier. So you can do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

What do you make of PIOs? So Ryan Williams recently has surrendered his passport, and I think it's just worth worth explaining this to those who don't know. If you want to play for India, what India does not allow is dual citizenship, so you can't have two passports, you can only have one. So, yes, you can surrender your passport and get an Indian passport and therefore play for India, but this has always been the stumbling block, hasn't it? Because I think Pakistan, you can have dual passports. Um, there's a couple of other countries, well, Bangladesh, you can have dual past dual citizenship as well, can't you?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

No, but Afghanistan, can you Afghanistan?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

You can have what you want. Yeah, it's always a tricky one, and I've always watched and never commented, to be honest, because I don't understand the political backlash. I understand, you know, the terrorism we we've all understood and watched what happened in Mumbai. And obviously, you you're going into an area that you're not qualified to talk about. I've seen Indian managers talk about it before, and they're not Indian managers for very long. So I've always gone, that is something I won't comment on. All I do now is What about the principle then of it? If you open it up, then of course you look at people like Danny Bath who played for Wolves, you know, Neil Taylor I played with at Wrexham, played for Swans, who played for Wales. You know, he's you know Indian origin. You know, he if he had dual passport, I'm sure he may have played for India. So you can improve from a network as a net putting out, you'll you'll get better players available, but the political backlash or understanding the politics behind it is is not for me to comment.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Will it will it push Indian football forward?

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Will it accelerate Indian football? It it will it will improve the national team for sure because you'll get a a bigger net of players, a bigger pool of players you can select from from different players. Um, you know, it's I've seen it, Hong Kong is is a little bit unique. To be a PR in Hong Kong, you have to be there seven years. You know, most countries use five, and once you've been there seven, you can apply for your passport. You know, in in the national team in Hong Kong, we have five Brazilians, they've got Hong Kong passports, you know, that represent, but if you look all across national teams, Indonesia, most of them are Dutch.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

How was that, by the way? The the the political element of that, the Brazilians, because this year the Malaysian FA has been absolutely spanked, haven't they? Because their entire team was born and brought up, and the grandparents they put down on the documentation, so basically it's fraud. Yeah, they put down on the documentation that grandparents were born in Malaysia and there weren't, and obviously the players themselves weren't born in Malaysia.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

That happens in Europe as well, doesn't it? I mean, that's always a point of connection.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Well, there's FIFA stipulations, which is you know, there has to be a born and bred connection, doesn't it?

PIOs, Passports And Politics

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah, I mean, with with I mean, Hong Kong is is is very good at sticking to the rules, you know, that as a as a place, as a region, you know, you you can't you can't cross a road until you're told to cross the road, you know, it's ran really well. So you know, nothing's untoward about how it's in Hong Kong, you know, the the boys have been there seven years, they've got the passports and they can represent Hong Kong, which is which is fair. Um, so there's there's no problem with that. The Indian ones, like we say, if if you're born in India or you have a mother, a grandfather, a grandma, whatever, and you can apply for dual citizenship, then obviously that's fair if you want to, but again, you know, it's a it's an area of political debate that I'm not I can't go into.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, and the the theme look has always been very sort of murky around that, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah, very murky. Uh what's next, finally?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

What's next for Ashley Westwood? Something I always say, just keep improving, keep going forward. Uh look look to improve the CV, look to another challenge to improve. I have a habit of winning, which I don't say that like an idiot. I always say like a bell end. I like winning. I know how to get a side to win. I've definitely got a CV that that creates winning success. I just want to go somewhere and win. Simple as that. Um, wherever that may be. Um, I always feel in my head there's always another chapter in India, whether that be club, whether that be national team, but also there's you know, there's a there's a lot of national teams out there that I can go and improve for sure, and just look forward to to getting back into football and getting back on the horse, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

And one thing that we can say is if it's a Westwood team that India's playing against, we are panicking, aren't we? So on that note, the Indians. The Indians. But thank you, Ashley, for joining us, and thank you for those very candid, very brutally honest responses. Enjoyed the conversation thoroughly. And thank you, Joseph, for joining us once again. And thank you for joining Chai Football. We will be back again with another episode very, very soon.