Power Struggle
Improving the energy dialogue in Canada (and beyond) through honest, non-partisan, and fact- based conversations.
The energy conversation is personal: it’s in our homes, in our hands, and now, it’s in our ears. Power Struggle invites you to listen in on honest, non-partisan, and fact-based conversations between host Stewart Muir and the leaders and thinkers designing modern energy.
Watch videos at https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Power Struggle
The $40 Billion Project That Changed Everything
What does it take to build the largest private investment in Canadian history? Susanna Pierce reveals the inside story of the $40 billion LNG Canada project as it prepares to ship its first cargo – a milestone she helped shape during her tenure as president of Shell Canada.
The conversation takes us behind the curtain of mega-project development, where Pierce describes the intricate dance of coordinating every aspect of the value chain while building meaningful partnerships with First Nations communities. "What made LNG Canada reality was everyone coming together," she explains, highlighting how Indigenous leadership from figures like Crystal Smith and Ellis Ross was fundamental to the project's success. This represents a powerful model of economic reconciliation where First Nations have "a share and a say" in resource development.
Pierce offers unique perspective on what it means for Canada to become an energy superpower – balancing our hydrocarbon resources with climate responsibility while remaining competitive in global markets. Drawing from her experience living in both Alberta and British Columbia, she provides nuanced insights on the cultural and economic divides that shape our national energy conversations: "When I read the newspaper in BC about oil and gas, I heard about how bad we are. In Calgary, I heard about how misunderstood we are."
Now heading into a new chapter with Peter Tertzakian at StudioEnergy, Pierce is applying her skills to create data-driven solutions for Canada's energy challenges. But perhaps most surprising is her passionate commitment to fighting human trafficking in Canada – a cause she's tackling by building networks between organizations and corporations to create collective impact.
As Canada navigates complex choices about its energy future, Pierce offers a compelling vision: the opportunity to redefine who we are on the global stage while creating prosperity at home. Her journey demonstrates how leadership, resilience and cooperation can move seemingly impossible projects from vision to reality.
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The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
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I made a commitment a couple of years ago to say well, I'm not going to turn a blind eye on this, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't exist, because I know it exists in our communities, not just the North, but here in Vancouver. I know that big events you know coming up, such as FIFA, will attract more traffic.
Stewart Muir:If you're enjoying Power Struggle, make sure to subscribe, share this episode and leave us a review, because it helps us keep fact-based energy conversations going and gets these voices into more ears. Our guest today is someone who spent two decades at the very center of the North American energy sector Susanna Pierce. Susanna, welcome.
Susannah Pierce:It's so great to be here.
Stewart Muir:It's so great to have you here After four years as president and country chair of Shell Canada, one of the fabled super majors of the global energy scene. Here you are taking on some new challenges that we're going to talk about today. We're going to look at what you're doing with Peter Terzakian at studioenergy Really exciting project. We're your partner and we're going to look back as well on something that is unfolding just in the literally next few hours and days as we sit here recording this nearly the end of june 2025 historic moment coming up. What is that talk about? That? Um, so this is really exciting for me to to welcome you to power struggle.
Stewart Muir:We've known each other on, uh, the projects that you've been working on. You've been a public figure. You've been everywhere I go. You're there talking to the audiences that matter to you. But, suzanne, I'd like to go to this inaugural LNG Cargo. So LNG Canada. You worked on this project for a decade or more. You were the country lead for Shell Canada, which is the lead investor, lead partner for LNG Canada with the other country investors. I'd like to talk about this a little bit and it's a $40 billion project. It's the biggest Canadian private sector investment in history and you were the spirit of that for a long time. It's mind-blowing. What was it like?
Susannah Pierce:the CEO at the time of LNG Canada and he was really critical, I think, in bringing all the joint venture partners together to create the joint venture so that we could, you know, be where we are today and get us through some of the most difficult times, which is the formation of the project, the alignment across the joint venture participants working with the First Nations, all levels of government, community so, beyond Andy, the entire leadership team, the decision makers within each of the houses, the communities, again, you can go on and on and on. And, as I think about it today too, you know what made LNG Canada reality was really everyone coming together and saying we want to get this done. And it wasn't universal all the time, let's do it. It was more about we have a challenge. How do we work on this challenge together to get to a point where we can make a decision which is a final investment decision, and then, from that final investment decision, it's the next crew who comes in to build it.
Susannah Pierce:And now we're at that next major milestone. The companies are and I say we as a country and a province that next major milestone where we will be exporting natural gas at a large global scale for the first time in our history. So suffice it to say there's so many people who contributed to it that you know, but there's lots of people who contributed to it that you don't know, and you're one of those people who worked behind the scenes to make it a reality. So that's part of why I wanted to be here with you today as well to say thank you and I think the country certainly owes you thanks for all that you've done to try and get natural resources developed.
Stewart Muir:Well, thanks so much. I mean these critical conversations across communities all around British Columbia, but Canada too, have been part of that social license project. That is needed for something of this scale, especially when you're a democracy where everyone's got rights to speak as they should. We've got regulatory processes where public has rights to and organizations, and it's incredibly complex.
Susannah Pierce:It could be incredibly complex. And again, and that's where you need leaders who can see the complexity, who can break it down into pieces that you can then manage and influence and get to decision and then bring it all back together and then you can move big things forward. And it's almost like climbing a mountain. You don't look at the top of the mountain, you look at your first step and you keep going and you have resilience and you have ups and you have downs. And I would just say that you know the LNG Canada project. For many people who worked on it was that project where they learned so much. It was hard work, but the realization of it and again.
Susannah Pierce:I won't speak for my friend, chief Elected Counselor Crystal Smith. The realization of it is so profound. And again, what's nice about this project? It's not just for the shareholders, just not for the investors, it's for the communities, of course. Phil Grimuth, who's mayor of Kitimat as well, who's been, you know, mayor for some time there too, has also played such a leadership role as well. And again, I can go on and on. There's so many people who we owe thanks.
Stewart Muir:And you have been involved in this at every level over this time. It's really something, but there might be someone watching this who doesn't know what LNG Canada is. So let's pretend to write the Wikipedia entry of your dreams for this project. What do I find when I go there?
Susannah Pierce:Well, lng Canada is a joint venture partnership and we call it that because of the participants and it's Shell, petronas, mitsubishi, korea Gas and CNPC or PetroChina, and it came together to export natural gas in liquid form from the port of Kitimat, from Kitimat, all the way to consumers or customers in Asia.
Susannah Pierce:And what's fantastic about this LNG project is the fact that the participants also have upstream gas, so it's the gas that they would produce and ship along the pipeline, which is coastal gas pipeline, and then export it via the LNG Canada terminal and, yes, with its first cargo about to ship any day, it will then bring that cargo to countries and customers within those countries who are looking to that gas to power homes, to use in their own industrial boilers and things like that.
Susannah Pierce:But one of the benefits of it, I think, is, by design, the fact that when we were looking at how do we create new LNG, how do we lower the carbon intensity In today's conversation around any hydrocarbon, we have to also talk about climate. So when you're looking at natural gas and the IEA has just come out with this natural gas and LNG is about 50% lower in emissions than coal, so you have the opportunity to displace coal and reduce emissions in those consuming regions and with the lowest carbon intensity LNG coming from British Columbia, you know that in the overall portfolio of LNG, it's a good thing you know in terms of that LNG serving customers who are looking to displace higher intensive fuels.
Stewart Muir:That's the perfect potter history of LNG Canada. Thank you. Yeah, it was an unbelievably complex. I've heard it said that a project like this, because of the size of the financing, involves every single bank in the world. It's one of those globally significant projects that unifies everyone. It's hard to imagine, and you look at all the steps required to succeed. So I have a question here what for you, was the most complex part for you personally, and you had different positions over the years in it part for you personally, and you had different positions over the years in it. And now I would just add that you kind of mentioned this at the beginning, but you are now outside of that company and you're not representing Shell Canada right now. You're speaking of your experience as a person in this. What was the most complex part of this journey for you, susanna?
Susannah Pierce:For the LNG Canada journey itself, or yeah. So let me just speak to that because I think it's something where it was the most complex but it ended up being the most effective thing that we could have done. And it really comes down to, when you're looking at doing any major investment, how you bring together all aspects of that investment into a coordinated strategy. And so what I mean by that is, when you're thinking about building a project like an LNG terminal, you need to make sure you have the right engineering and technical design, but alongside of that, you really need to make sure that you understand the impact of that facility and construction operations on the community. You need to do your environmental and regulatory permitting. You need to make sure you understand the law in terms of shipping gas from Canada to other nations. You need to make sure you understand the law in terms of shipping gas from Canada to other nations. You need to make sure you understand can it actually make the investors money? Can it provide a fair return to governments and to First Nations? Holistically, does this make sense? I would say that's part of the complexity. But then you need to add on upstream gas that then needs to go through Coastal Gas Link, which was an independent project that was servicing the terminal. Then you need to bring on those other pieces of the value chain and make sure all of those are working together, while you also need to make sure that customers still want your gas, so you have the market end.
Susannah Pierce:So when you look at the overall complexity of that project, it's not only just looking at the tunnel itself, it's making sure that each piece of that value chain is working together at the right time so that when you do send out that first car, no, it's all lined up.
Susannah Pierce:So I guess what I said in the beginning is you can't climb a whole mountain or look at the top of the mountain at the first step. You need to take one step at a time. We did take one step at a time, but we made sure that the steps were coordinated across each of those pieces of the value chain, within each of the pieces, within each of the nodes you could call that value chain so that we could come to a final investment decision and then execute it, keeping all of those coordinated nodes in place as we go. So that was the most complex thing, because you had to really keep your eyes on each piece of it. But it's also, like I said, the way that we did it and the way that we coordinated it and integrated it the most rewarding, and it's part of why we are here today, and I'd even say it's probably part of why LNG Canada, of all the projects you know that were on the docket way back when, is really the first one to get going in a major way.
Stewart Muir:And others didn't make the cut.
Susannah Pierce:And others didn't make the cut. And I think you can look across the value chain, you can look at where those projects were cited. You could look at a number of different things, but you know, we had, I think, just such a wonderful team in the beginning and continued to have a great team as it moved along, have a great team as it moved along. And I would also say this is that, you know, I fundamentally believe and I think this is again something that the project has demonstrated is that no project, no major investment of this scale can be successful without the alignment and agreement with communities, both Indigenous and non-Indigenous.
Stewart Muir:Well, I saw that firsthand in my travels and the corridor building that pipeline, the location of the terminal in Kitimat, northwest British Columbia. The First Nations were part of the success of this and in fact essential to the success of it.
Susannah Pierce:No, no question about it. And you know, I think back to Karen Ogun, who's First Nations LNG Alliance, and Crystal Smith, who, of course, is chair, and gosh Ellis Ross I mean I think it kept going with all of the wonderful people who were part of this. But all the way through to the upstream, and you know and that was you know where the gas is being produced and all who are producing that gas need to make sure that they are also having the right relationships with communities and First Nations. So it was a full value chain project, but something that you know each of us independently needed to make sure that we were doing right.
Stewart Muir:That's something that each of us independently needed to make sure that we were doing right. I think the coverage when this first cargo goes will be, you know, half a percentage point boost to the Canadian economy. There'll be a lot of stats in it, but I think the biggest impact over the long term will not be that alone. It will be the kind of social innovation that this opportunity has created for you know. You look at all the lives that have been lifted up, the careers, families that have been empowered to, you know, enjoy a better standard of living.
Susannah Pierce:Yeah, and I think that's a great point, Stuart, because I think we tend to think that the governments are responsible for standards of living and they certainly have a role in terms of social services and using tax dollars in order to provide social goods, and that's fantastic.
Susannah Pierce:But what I see as very effective is where you're actually able to generate new businesses, particularly in indigenous communities, new businesses which then create jobs or then create careers, and when you see that happening in combination with the private sector, First Nations, and then there is a role for government to help facilitate, that's pretty powerful and that's where you see economic reconciliation happening on its own, and that, I think, is the most powerful way to lift communities out of poverty is when they have, you know, as Crystal Smith has said, a share and a say, and we're going to see more of that, and I think that is something which has taken hold in Canada, and I think it always has to be done with a lens that businesses in Canada and this is something I spend quite a bit of time explaining to folks for any business in Canada to be successful, they need to make some money.
Susannah Pierce:They need to be able to take their dollars, invest it and generate a return to their shareholders. If they're taking money, investing it and generating no return, well, they're not providing for businesses that they could provide jobs, which then could provide taxes and royalties. So making money in and of itself isn't wrong. It's creating opportunity for jobs. It's creating opportunities for businesses to grow to provide services. So that's a good thing. And sometimes I think in Canada we think it's a bad thing for businesses to prosper. But if businesses prosper, communities can prosper with them, and that just goes back to sort of the Michael Porter shared value theory, which is really about when businesses profit, communities prosper, and you need to make sure that alignment is right.
Stewart Muir:And this is thinking that I know you're going to be applying in the next chapter of your career and I want to come to that in a moment. But there is something I want to ask you because I'll bet you get a question like this from women executives you meet I mean, I'm out here in Vancouver but I do go out to Calgary a lot. I would say the Canadian oil and gas industry. It's pretty male in the C-suite, but let me ask you a question this way when you are in conversation with women executives who must surely look up to you, who have risen to really the pinnacle of corporate Canada in the energy sector, what do they want to ask you?
Susannah Pierce:That's a great question. Well, you know, I think a lot of it is just the general question how did you do it? What did you learn along the way? And, believe me, I've learned quite a bit, and part of it is, you know, the combination of trying to be a business executive while also trying to have a family and trying to be a part of a community, and my advice would be that you're never going to get it perfectly, and don't be too hard on yourself. Continue to try and learn from any mistakes or times where you weren't fully present with your kids or other parts of your family.
Susannah Pierce:I think one of the things that you know I would share, and have shared with many women who've asked me this, is that I think when we're in business, we're revved up. You know we've got to get to the next milestone, We've got to get to the next hurdle and sometimes we forget to rev down. You know, part of what makes us successful is that we have a drive and you have an ambition and it's okay, we've got this done, let's go to the next thing. But sometimes the people that you love don't want the revved up Susanna. They don't want the revved up mom and dad. So being able to turn that down and be fully present is something that I'll be honest, I haven't done perfectly. I acknowledge it and I think that they can appreciate me saying that to them.
Susannah Pierce:But I guess I just say this is that we sometimes spend so much time worrying about delivering the business and worrying how that success is showing up for us and the business that we forget about what the most important contribution, which is really to the families and community. So keeping that balance right is really critical, because when you do too much on the other side you will look back and say, oh, I wish I had made changes sooner. But you know, we're in Canada right now, a really interesting place where I do believe it is all hands on deck to collectively work towards how do we make the right investments in this country so that we can have a strong economy, so that we can have jobs and growth and be competitive not only in Canada but on the world scale. So it is going to take all of us leaning in and saying this is what I have to contribute, this is where I think I can contribute to developing enterprise, but this is also how I can take care of my community and my family at the same time.
Stewart Muir:Well, I know that you gave everything to this project and your work for a long time and it sounds like you had to weigh that price. I hope it's all coming full circle for your priorities. Across the board it sounds like it is, and I'm happy to hear that you certainly deserve that what you've done. I do want to talk about the new stuff you're doing, because it's so exciting to me what that is, but I want to take one of your threads here. We're hearing that Canada has the potential to become an energy superpower. I'd like to ask you, because of your career with an energy super major company that's a term actually used in the business world to describe Shell and Exxon and BP and Philae what nations are energy superpowers today?
Susannah Pierce:Well, I think the definition may be different depending upon who you talk to, and so I mean you can think of an energy superpower as a country that's like Norway, that's done amazing things with their hydrocarbons, where they've been able to export, but they've also been able to use the revenues to invest in their own economy, where you see the level of decarbonization that's been happening domestically. You can call an energy superpower the United States, who's been able to turn around import terminals into export terminals and now has more than we can imagine in terms of their ability to actually turn around and now become a net exporter, one of the largest exporters of energy. You can look towards the Middle East and countries where so much of their economy has been driven by petrodollars or by oil and gas and say that that's an energy superpower. I think, in the Canadian context though I think part of it is going to be and needs to be the fact that we do have these natural resources which are profound, and that's oil and natural gas, and some might have even said coal at the time we also have critical minerals in our earth which also conserve the energy needs of the world, and so, I think, from the perspective of what is an energy superpower? In the Canadian context, I think it is hydrocarbons, because we are the fourth largest producer of oil. We have a substantial amount of oil reserves. It is natural gas and we're beginning to play a role in that as we speak, you know, at a global scale. I think it's also the fact that we do have uranium out of Saskatchewan, which is some amazing projects there.
Susannah Pierce:But also, I would say, look at our grid.
Susannah Pierce:You know, in our grid, when we look at the fact that it's largely non-emitting, when we consider hydro and consider nuclear and additional power from wind and solar, you know we've got quite a fascinating and wonderful domestic supply of lower carbon energy.
Susannah Pierce:And I say lower carbon because it has to be part of the solution, because the world continues to need to look at its impacts on climate. And just because we're in a new world where we recognize the role that natural gas and oil can play and has played in our economy, doesn't mean we forget about the climate. And that's going to be where the conversations also need to be had where how do we ensure that we're providing the resources the world needs but also continuing to invest in technologies that can help us decarbonize further? So example could be carbon capture sequestration. I think it is an example where the work that has happened in Alberta and Saskatchewan to that end has helped to progress the technology such that it can also become a global technology and already is where the world is looking at carbon capture sequestration. So I think there's more and more that we can do in the Canadian context, domestically, that eventually then can go for export. So the Canadian definition of energy superpower is all that to me.
Stewart Muir:And it sounds realistic to be able to get there.
Susannah Pierce:It sure does. And I have to also say it's also with participation and investment and equity with First Nations who are at the table and are business partners in this, and business partners means we all have to be competitive together in order to make these businesses last.
Stewart Muir:The prime minister has been using a term decarbonized oil and when he said that, I noticed there's some critics who pop up. That's impossible. You can't decarbonize oil Inherently it's got carbon in it. But he does mean something. He spent a long time in finance of the green economy, a true expert. What does he mean when he uses that term, and is it a correct term to use?
Susannah Pierce:Well, I think it is a correct term to use. I mean, again, I would look at the scope one, two and three when you really look at emissions profiles and I think there's the capacity to reduce the emissions from the production of the energy, but then becomes the energy that customers consume and their emissions would be scope three, not to get too technical on it. So I do think when you look at the potential to use carbon capture, sequestration and there's the Pathways Project, which is going to be working or is working with the major oil sands producers, that would be decarbonized oil if that ever gets going. Again, the economic conditions need to be correct and they need to be able to get the project up and running, which I think they're making headway on. So I think that is your decarbonized oil running, which I think they're making headway on. So I think that is your decarbonized oil.
Susannah Pierce:The thing is, too, that when we look at becoming an energy superpower, we also have to recognize are we doing everything we can not only to provide the decarbonized oil but also ensure that the oil that is produced is competitive, because we are price takers in this. We can't necessarily sell a product that is more expensive than our competitors, and so that combination of thinking also has to be in place when we think about when we layer on CCS, carbon capture sequestration. How does that impact the competitiveness of the oil you know we already sell at a discount to the US Gulf Coast. How does that impact the price competitiveness of that oil? I think there's a solution set there. I think there's ways that we can actually address that, and I think that's what people like Prime Minister Carney are working on. I would expect.
Stewart Muir:There's a phrase that I never forget from Daniel Yergin's writings, the great energy historian, which is a very simple sentence oil always gets to market, and that's just a rule of the last couple of hundred years where people have been using oil, and it's going to get to market. So do we want to be a country that does that with the oil we have here is really important.
Susannah Pierce:Well, to be a participant in a market where we do know that the world is still going to need more oil, and you can look at a number of different scenarios and say when is that actually going to start to plateau?
Susannah Pierce:But it's not going to go to zero, at least in my lifetime, and there's an opportunity for especially as the global economies continue to grow, especially given where we see dependency on oil used today that are we going to participate in that, generate the revenues back to Canadians, or are we going to just let that go and let somebody else generate revenues for their communities? That's the question, and that is a very important question for us to be having in Canada, because we do have substantial reserves. We do need to do it right, we do need to do it fairly, we do need to do it in a way that protects and mitigates impacts on the environment no question at all Provides benefits and participation for Indigenous communities absolutely, and participation for Indigenous communities absolutely. But we also can't take our eye off the goal, which is this oil needs to be competitive and we need to make sure that we do it in a way that again preserves that, so we do become that participant more than we already are.
Stewart Muir:I think your lens on all this is going to be so valuable in what you're doing now. And when I heard that you were going to work with Peter Terzakian, I just want to tell you a little about my appreciation of Peter, because I've got to know Peter Terzakian over the years. I was on his podcast not too long ago, but I've visited with him in his office and in his home, where he has incredible interests in the history of energy. But he's a photographer, he's an artist, he's an author, an economist, an advisor, an investor, he's a public speaker, a podcaster, he explains complexity. He's just a remarkable Canadian. And that you are going to be able to work with him at studioenergy is amazing Because the two of you together I mean you bring an astonishingly successful wheelhouse into this. And here you are partnering with Peter, so envious and proud and just proud to know the both of you. What is studioenergy all about?
Susannah Pierce:Yeah, so studioenergy is something that really was the vision of Peter, which was to bring people together to solve problems, solve energy problems, solve complexity. And you know what it started off as? Being a table where you could bring in people from various companies to tackle an issue, bringing people from various companies to tackle an issue. But what he's been able to do with folks on the team is also develop a fantastic model but not only looks at production scenarios and the overlay of policy and, with that level of production and policy, what the emissions are, but it also looks at decisions that need to be made from investors. You know, as I said earlier, I mean we can do everything we can to produce the oil, we can do everything we can to meet climate commitments, but if, at the end of the day, it's not competitive, then you don't really have a business. You're not generating returns to governments, you're not generating royalties. So taking a look at that capital investment the investor component of this is what Peter's been able to do in a modeling way, so you can actually take a look at the price of oil, see what happens in terms of the ability of that capital then to float back into the Canadian economy to generate revenues and royalties looking at the emissions profiles. So, collectively, bringing all of this together so you can start to understand the influence and the integration of each of these individual components. That's pretty powerful, because now you're able to sit at the table and say, oh, I see, the price of oil goes up, but then we have this policy over here, but then all of this elected capital continues to sit on the sidelines.
Susannah Pierce:There's a problem here. Why is that elected capital not coming back into the economy to invest more, to generate more jobs and revenues and royalties? It opens a dialogue for problem solving and answers the questions around why does this dilemma exist? So I actually think the studio has become a place where you can have conversations about these tradeoffs, because that's really what it's all about.
Susannah Pierce:I mean, I can remember having a conversation with former Minister Wilkinson and looking at the difference between meeting a climate goal well, a scenario in this case and the impact that might have on overall production, royalties and revenues to the Canadian economy. That's a trade-off, that's a policy discussion, and our governments are in place to listen, observe and to make decisions in that regard. But my hope with Studio is that the decisions that can be made are being made with data transparency and an understanding of the implications of decisions on investment in Canada, on jobs and on the competitiveness of the Canadian economy. So, coming into the studio, what I wanted to be part of is something that is nonpartisan, is not driving any corporate agenda, it's having a place for that dialogue, for that conversation data-driven, to happen.
Stewart Muir:And who will want that from you? Is it a government agency or a corporation?
Susannah Pierce:It's a government agency, it's all of the above, it's corporations. We all want to have an understanding of the trade-off and these insights. We all want to be able to play around with scenarios. Well, if I do this, what happens then to this? Royalties or revenues over here? That is really where I think everyone can come into the room and learn and then make better decisions.
Stewart Muir:This is next level stuff. There's a lot of folks in Calgary who are pretty good with their spreadsheets and they've got MBAs, but this is different than energy analysis in a traditional sense, because of the policy overlay.
Susannah Pierce:Yeah, and I think you know, I think companies who have the capacity to do it will do it. You know, if they have the capacity to try and look at these things, you know, critically and strategically, I think they could probably do it. But not everybody has that capacity and what we're able to do is, with Peter's incredible insights, experience, bring it to a place again where we can do it for them and then open up a dialogue again at a table that is set for everyone to have a conversation, not just to feel that one group is not being heard over another.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, the studio approach, where it suggests the transmission of knowledge but also creativity happens in a studio.
Susannah Pierce:And asking questions that you know, my goal with Peter is that we ask questions and give answers before people have thought to even ask them, so that we can continue to get ahead of some of this, and especially right now, when we're looking at how do we drive more investments in Canada, how do we prioritize? I think there's a place for the studio to play a role.
Stewart Muir:It's very timely in another way. Not too long ago, there was a letter from 38 Canadian CEOs from the energy sector and they put their individual signatures on. So it was different than, say, an industry, you know, collective organization, association doing that. This was individuals who seemingly made that decision to pool their, their kind of personal executive reputation. So it was a bit unusual. And what were they saying?
Stewart Muir:Well, it was a message to the new prime minister and the new energy minister, and they had five things that they're saying. If you can address these concerns we have, then, prime minister, your, your vision of an energy superpower is going to be possible. Let's work on this. Um, so, from the perspective of someone who has now stepped outside of the, you know, the corporate uh, you're, perhaps you're freer to speak your mind that for yourself than than you were before Do you have a take on what the goals are of those CEOs and also how the prime minister will see this request? Is it going to be created warmly? I mean, there's been a long time where such pronouncements probably weren't appreciated in Ottawa.
Susannah Pierce:Well, I can't speak for the CEOs and I can't speak for the prime minister, so I'll just give maybe an opinion on it. First of all, I think the CEOs are speaking specifically to the concerns on their mind, and they came together in a collective manner to say hey, here you are in your first days in office. We really would like you to understand what is holding us back from doing more in the country. So I think it's perfectly their prerogative to put that on paper and send it directly to the prime minister. Send it directly to the prime minister. I'm not for this, prime minister Carney, but when you have significant investors in the Canadian economy, like these CEOs and the companies they represent, I would rather know what is on their mind than guess. And so if I was a prime minister, I would say okay, at least we understand where you are. Now let me understand where I can be based on what I need to consider as the prime minister of this country. And I would expect, based on just even the first few days in office, that the prime minister is looking hard at that and saying, okay, well, what things can I potentially move on? Or, candidly, what things will I move on? Because these conditions were before I came to office. So I honestly believe that the more that we can actually communicate with each other openly, transparently, and have a dialogue is better than not, and, like any negotiator, I would rather understand who I'm negotiating with and what their position is rather than guess, because then I can align more quickly on where I can be. So in the absence of that dialogue, we're still two sides of the ring. Let's get in the ring that's where I think we're getting into right now in Canada and let's really really have a hard conversation about how do we move the country forward. And forward has got to be clear too, and I think that there's increasingly alignment that you know with what's happened south of the border.
Susannah Pierce:We need to look at how dependent upon the United States we are, because there's significant impacts as a result of a change in office. We need to look at the customers. Who do our products in this country serve? Can we diversify? Because I think we know that there's a world of customers out there who have asked for certain products for us. Can we meet those customer demands? You know, I still remember conversations or flying and being in Japan, and when you look at how isolated Japan is and how dependent they are on other countries for energy, for example, you can expect that they would like to have more than one supplier of energy. That's why Canada is so wonderful. Then let's bring everybody together who has a care for this country and say, okay, what's on your mind and what can we work together on? And then what can't I not agree to? Because that's a bridge too far, or I need to consider these other things that are really important to me as well really important to me as well.
Stewart Muir:It sounds like the studioenergy project has got a place in advancing towards solving this You've described. Parties are far apart. Still some distance apart, there's sand in the hourglass. It's running out. How long do you think the prime minister has before the sense of optimism that there's a way to do this will start to erode?
Susannah Pierce:Well, I hope that you know. If I even just go back to our first part of the conversation here on Allergy Canada, allergy Canada was not a done deal. When we started, there was a lot of hurdles we had to get over. We got over those hurdles, but it didn't mean that there weren't moments in time where we felt like it wouldn't happen, or there were challenges we felt we wouldn't be able to get over. Or, you might recall, we had to pause a final investment decision in 2016. We eventually took it or they eventually took it in 2018.
Susannah Pierce:So nothing, especially major, complex projects, is for the faint of heart or done deals. It's for the faint of heart and or done deals. But I think what I hear and what I'm seeing in Canada, especially with we see what's just happened in Ottawa, you know passing a bill like C5, where you see alignment across political perspectives, you see alignment towards doing more to enable our natural resources to get to market, break down into provincial trade barriers. These are positive steps. Now, granted, there's lots of concern over groups that haven't been represented, and those things need to get worked out for sure, and I know that there's lots of folks that still feel like C5 is not a good bill, but it was a demonstration of the country coming together to get stuff done, so that gives me a vote of optimism.
Susannah Pierce:I think the details will still need to get worked out as it moves forward and as projects become part of it, but I would say let's continue to look at who we're serving both the Canadian economy, canadians but Canadians will be served when we actually have enterprises and businesses that can generate revenues, royalties and jobs. And those businesses, I think increasingly also have to look to other markets than just the United States, and so that's also part of this, and I think the countries that are looking for products from Canada aren't going anywhere. But we can't be slow about it either, because they will look to other markets unless we can commit to them and, with some confidence, show that we can get what we can produce to market to them.
Stewart Muir:I'm sure you're familiar with the turning point show on ESPN. You know there's that moment in a game golf match Was for you there a kind of ESPN, you know, turning point in the progress of LNG Canada when you had to have a really tough discussion. Maybe something had to be sacrificed or given up that you could share.
Susannah Pierce:Well, oh goodness, I do think the pause in 2016 was a really tough mulling for everyone, and that's a decision which can happen where the markets changed or the joint venture purchase at this point weren't sure that the capital was in place to move the project forward at that stage. You know, for whatever the reason, I think for all of us, you work so hard towards a timeline and then when there's a pause, that's a real significant, that can be a significant impact, but none of us gave up. You know, I can still remember Chief Electrical Intelligence Ross at the time and his perspective when he learned from MediCal as a CEO that this was going to be paused. It was a moment I'll always remember because the project meant so much to him and he'd been so much a part of it and, of course, crystal Smith following him, and the community and and the nation. Um, I remember that as just being a significant moment. Will this ever happen? But you know what? Together as a team, and the community and First Nations, we all all hung in together.
Susannah Pierce:And I remember also speaking to my team at the time and saying you know, in moments where there's more uncertainty or moments where there may be despair, it's the time when we need to be more present than ever, and, in fact, that was where we spent more time in community and we were spending a lot of time anyways but we wanted people to know that we're still here. We're still going to work together through this. So don't let the vacuum of what might look like project progress, you know, remove your hope that this can happen. And goodness, I mean. This is like the journey of mankind. You know.
Susannah Pierce:It's never been easy. We've always had ups and downs, and it's like big projects, it's the same thing. You'll have ups and downs, but you need to pick yourself back up the floor and keep going for another day. That's why we've been created to be resilient, and so that would be one thing. And you know, again, I think there's lots of decisions, and you know we can go down the permitting front if we wanted to, but that's too short a call for that. Lots of decisions, lots of trade-offs, but when you're doing it, as I said before, in an integrated way and we really did care about the community in First Nations you know that you're looking at complex decisions with the right level of input from all stakeholders.
Stewart Muir:You've opened a window into almost personalizing this mega project. That is kind of a corporate abstract thing. So you know, thanks for that. I'm sure there's other stories and maybe one day you'll write the book of all of your incredible experiences. But, Susanna, just recently I'm just curious to get your take on something. Recently, I'm just curious to get your take on something. We've seen this fascinating public dialogue between the Premier of Alberta, Daniel Smith, who is engaging with the Premier of British Columbia, David Eby, on questions that run almost to the heart of Confederation in the view of some, and at times it feels like we're seeing this borrowed theatrical device, you know, where the characters aren't speaking to each other on stage. They're speaking individually to the audience, but it's a dialogue because they're not speaking to each other, they're speaking through the media. What is with that? What's going on? Where's it going?
Susannah Pierce:Oh my goodness. Well, I think we're in a place today where there's lots of public statements that can be made. I mean, if you're the premier of any province, you're probably not very far from media almost all day long, and so if you're a public speaking you're going to get asked the question and it's fair, and I think it's completely legitimate that Premier Smith is really interested in how does she move more oil from Alberta to market, and so it's a top priority of hers. I think we've seen that and we've heard that. I think Premier Eby also recognizes that.
Susannah Pierce:You know that project, if there is a new pipeline, will have to go through British Columbia, and he cares about British Columbians, he cares about the First Nations, who also will have a say in all of this. So you know, I'm not surprised by it. To be honest, hardies that are going to build the infrastructure need to really look at it hard and then present a proposal for governments and regulators to decide on and include the federal government. So I'm not all that surprised by it. I'm also not underestimating the complexity of any infrastructure built today. Again, I think that's part of why you see interest in accelerating some of these complex projects, because they do get mired down in regulatory processes, some of which are probably not adding any value or outcome. So, again, it doesn't surprise me that you would have premiers taking a position on things that are important to them.
Stewart Muir:We'll see where it goes. We're all spectating at this point. Look, susanna, we're here in Vancouver, we're in British Columbia. Is there a true exceptionalism about BC from the point of view of its you know unique history? It's been, in some ways, maybe a flashpoint we've had over the last decade for major projects. I mean, think of another subnational jurisdiction where you've got like a hundred billion dollars in major projects that are happening at the same time and I I think you'd be hard pressed to think of a place. So we've had all of this activity here. It's been a very frothy public space for a long time, but it has been, you know, over decades too. We've had this so-called war in the woods. This is the city where Greenpeace was invented and went out for mayor. It was to do with nuclear weapons testing at that time in the early seventies.
Stewart Muir:Is there something I mean? And also the other thing, you know we have something in common. I, you know, I was born in Alberta. Ray spent most of my life out here in Vancouver. You're you're an Albertan originally, but you're also a British Columbian. Both sides of the Rockies are to me, my home, but sometimes the Rockies are also this barrier between these two provinces. Is there a BC psyche? Is there something that really does make it?
Susannah Pierce:different when I moved to British Columbia in 2013,. I did so because, in part, that in order to build infrastructure, I felt I needed to understand the community, the culture, the place we're building the infrastructure. And I used to joke and I think there's some truth to it that when I moved here, when I read the newspaper and I read about the oil and gas industry, I heard about how bad we are, whereas in Calgary, when I opened the newspaper and heard about the oil and gas industry, I read about how misunderstood we are. So I think the difference with British Columbia is a lot of natural resource development is in the north and a lot of the population is in the south. So the proximity to it and an understanding of it and the ability to see what comes from investment is very remote. You know, we take energy a lot of it is produced in the North and we consume it, but we're far away from it. It's almost like flipping on your light switch you never really think about where the electron's been generated now, do you? Whereas if you're working up in the North and you turn on your gas stove, you're like, oh, I know where that gas came from. So the proximity to it, the understanding, the relationship to it is very different than in Alberta, where so much of Calgary and Edmonton is focused on the revenues that have been generated around natural resources, not only gas. So much of business works in those communities or generates revenue from it. It's much more proximate. So I think the proximity and the familiarity plays a large role in that.
Susannah Pierce:But I think increasingly, especially given where we are in, looking at the economic position of Canada, looking at our budgets, looking at tariffs and impacts south of the border, it's a different type of conversation because the risk that a lot of the revenues that we've been generated could be impacted has forced us to say, well, where are those revenues coming from and how bad could it get? You know one of the best ways to care about energy is to go without it. You know one of the best ways to care about revenues is to go without it and what we've seen is some risks to revenues and to that end we're now asking the question what can we do? So I think that's made the conversation different. I think that's why you have more focus and understanding around it.
Susannah Pierce:But you know, bc is uniquely different than Alberta. How BC looks at natural resources is different than Alberta. I think First Nations, the majority of which are not under treaty in British Columbia is different than Alberta and most of the rest of Canada. So of course, bc is different. But again, I think part of what we have to do any of us who are working in the sector is to make sure that all communities understand why we do what we do and what's in it for them and, in the absence of it, also what that means.
Stewart Muir:We can forget how privileged we are in this country. 2050, I'm not worried about 2050. I'm worried about 850, whether the grid's going to turn on and people can have hot water.
Susannah Pierce:Two worlds this is maybe a little bit too personal, but every time I turn a hot shower on, I say thanks, and when I turn the electricity on, especially on a hot, I say thanks, and we can't take that for granted. In fact, so many people who work out, for example, even in BC Hydro, or work up in the Northeast we owe them banks that we have a certain those who transmit the energy Like it's, we do take it for granted. So much of our economy and our lives depend on energy. So you know again, it's good for you to raise parts of the world that don't have this or that are suffering from the lack of, you know, available and cleaner energy supplies, that are suffering from the lack of you know, available and cleaner energy supplies.
Stewart Muir:So we do need to recognize, honor that and there where we can provide those resources to those countries. This could easily be an all-day discussion, but currently our podcast format doesn't allow that. The long form is coming back, though, but, susanna, you have always been associated with different charities. Over the years, I've, I've, I've, I've seen you, uh, working in different communities. Um, really love your devotion to helping others who are trying to be in that space. Lately, you found one cause that you're more focused on. Could you talk about that?
Susannah Pierce:Sure, thank you. Yeah, there's, there's there's so much need in our communities and and I am working on is human trafficking. And this was something that you know, I became familiar with when I started to look at, you know impacts, you know across the country and one of the fastest growing crimes in the country which happened to be trafficking in people. And you know, a colleague of mine was very good friends with Paul Brandt, who's the country singer who founded, not In my City, which is focused on efforts to eliminate human trafficking in Canada. So he and I became friends and as I leaned into it more, I began to realize what an impact it's having, you know, on women and in particularly, disproportionately, on Indigenous women and girls. So I made a commitment a couple of years ago to say, well, I'm not going to turn a blind eye on this, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't exist, because I know it exists in our communities, not just the North, but here in Vancouver. I know that big events you know coming up, such as FIFA, will attract more trafficking. You can go around some airports today many actually in Canada now more than 30, and you can see anti-trafficking posters and stickers so that people who may be trafficked will find there's a place for them to go. So we're beginning to raise more awareness on it. But I think part of my leaning into this is a recognition that we walk by people on the street. We recognize that things are happening in our community and very often we hurry up and we move on. This is one where I said I'm not going to hurry up and move on.
Susannah Pierce:So a couple of years ago, with the Lieutenant Governor at the time, bc Janet Austin, she and I came together and he said well, let's create the BC Network for the Prevention of Human Trafficking. And this is not me jumping in and telling organizations that have been working on this for years what to do. This is me just looking at how can I connect them together so that they could have a more profound collective impact if they're all working towards the same end and, in addition to that, asking some of my corporate friends and colleagues to say, well, what are you now doing about this? Surprisingly, we all have a role to play in this, and so you saw organizations like YVR step up right away. You saw the BC Lions step up right away, and I can keep going and one by one, you begin to see, oh, we are doing more than we think, but now let's make sure that we're collectively integrating that so that if somebody over here is doing one thing, you leverage that, or if somebody has a challenge over here, you leverage that.
Susannah Pierce:Prince George just signed on to the BC Network for the Prevention of Human Trafficking, so it's moving forward. I think it has more momentum than ever and I think, again, it's about working across each piece of the human trafficking life cycle and providing action by collecting or by connecting the groups together. And you know, before I came here, I was just on one of our network calls and the level of energy is high, the momentum is high, the sharing is high and so, yes, I think the opportunity for us to have a significant impact in this province is high.
Stewart Muir:Your skills from your work career seem like they're a great fit for this. Is there one thing that people can do?
Susannah Pierce:Yeah, I think what people can do is to learn more so they can look at things like Not In my City they can look at. You know, even the Salvation Army has work on this. You can look at the work that the B City they can look at. You know even the Salvation Army has work on this. You can look at the work that the BPD is doing. So it's universally, in a number of different places is look to learn more and then you can become an observer and perhaps have an impact in somebody being trafficked. And I think, as mankind each of us, as humans it's in humanity's interest for each of us to keep our eyes open and to help those who are vulnerable.
Stewart Muir:There's a call to action, susanna, it's probably time to close things out here and, in a forward-looking way, say a decade in the future, when we go back to these questions of the connection between how people live and the energy decisions made, the forks in the road we encounter along the way. Is there one thing, one decision that will allow Canada to go in a direction that creates the things that most people want?
Susannah Pierce:I wish there were just one decision. I think that there is just one decision. I think that there is. I think there is an opportunity for Canada to revisit what Canada is, and I don't mean just from the perspective of the Canadian flag, and we wave it domestically. I think the world is looking to Canada and say what is Canada, what do you stand for and how do you participate globally? We have a real opportunity to redefine that, or maybe make that clearer, so that we can be very proud and we can continue to be very proud of what we are, what we stand for, and that our Canadian economy is prospering, which enables all people in Canada to prosper. So I think the redefinition, the alignment of who we are and what we stand for, I think is the great opportunity in front of us.
Stewart Muir:Do you think Canadians are ready for that?
Susannah Pierce:I think we are. I mean, I would just say this last bit, like I remember looking at an Angus Reid poll late last year, which showed that the level of, I think, canadian patriotism or alignment was at an all-time low. And then, of course, what happened a couple of months later? It shot right back up because we were reminded that we need to have an identity, because we were being targeted, and that made us align together more than we ever have and we started to ask okay, well, now what do we stand for and how do we act differently and how do we not take the things that we've taken for granted for granted going forward? So, yeah, I think there's a huge opportunity and I think there's lots of folks that are working towards that end.
Stewart Muir:Susanna Pierce, it's been an incredible discussion, a long time in the preparation and I'm glad you're here last today, so thanks.
Susannah Pierce:It's wonderful to be here, tara, thanks for coming in. Thank you.
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