Listening Leader: Are Mothers The Most Unseen Leaders? Ep 37

Motherhood can feel like a blur of needs, emotions, and unseen work and it can also be one of the clearest places God forms a leader. We sit down with Kathy Tuan-McLean, Faculty Ministry National Director with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and co-author of Moms At The Well: Meeting God Through The Mothers Of Scripture, to talk about listening leadership as mothers and why parenting is not just a role, but a leadership calling shaped by the Holy Spirit.

Grab Mom's At The Well by Tara Edelschick and Kathy Tuan-MacLean https://amzn.to/4bfFtCw

We get honest about what makes motherhood spiritually hard: anger, worry, comparison, loneliness, and the quiet shame that tells us we are failing. Kathy shares how a low point in early motherhood became a doorway into deeper prayer, writing, and the kind of community where moms can confess the truth and still be met with grace. That theme keeps coming back because real transformation rarely happens in isolation and listening to God often becomes clearer when we are also seen and heard by trusted people.

Then we open Scripture and spend time with Hagar, the mother who names God “El Roi” the God who sees me and whose son’s name means God has heard my misery. From Hagar’s story, Kathy unpacks five steps of spiritual transformation, with a surprising hinge point: honest conversation with God. We also talk about calling, spiritual gifts, and what it looks like to lead as a woman in ministry and the secular workplace without shrinking your God-given voice.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re hearing God or just your own thoughts, grab the free devotional How to Hear God at Work at IamKellyJohnson.com. Subscribe, share this with a friend who feels unseen, and leave a review so more women can grow into spirit-led wisdom and authentic power.

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Keywords: Christian women, Spirit-led living, Holy Spirit, faith podcast, women in leadership, working ...

Transcript

elcome To In The Flow

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to In the Flow, a podcast for women pursuing God's spirit in life and leadership. I'm Kelly Johnson, and this season we're exploring what it means to become the listening leader because clarity and alignment with the Lord create a more impactful leader. Each conversation invites you to slow down, lean in, and lead from a place of attunement with the Lord so that we can grow in spirit-led wisdom and authentic power. Let's get in the flow. As we continue this journey around becoming listening leaders, today I'm excited that we're going to explore what it looks like to be listening leaders as mothers. Candidly, this isn't an area of leadership that I necessarily saw myself in, even though I'm a mom. And it didn't happen until I had an amazing conversation with my special guest, Kathy Chuan McLean. Let me tell you a little bit about Kathy's background. Kathy serves as Faculty Ministry National Director for InnerVarsity Christian Fellowship, where she invites and resources faculty

otherhood Reframed As Leadership

SPEAKER_02 1:14

to follow Jesus together. She's a mother of three adult children and an overly anxious labrodoodle. Since joining InnerVarsity in 1990, she has led numerous students and faculty in Bible study, spiritual formation, and leadership development. She's also a spiritual director who has led marriage ministry and women's retreats. In her church, you can find her occasionally preaching, often teaching, serving as an elder, and regularly cooking for and hosting gatherings. Kathy is co-author of a book called Moms at the Well: Meeting God Through the Mothers of Scripture. She co-wrote that with Tara Edelschick. Kathy is joining us today to explore what it means to be listening leaders as mothers. Take a listen. Kathy, welcome to In the Flow. I am so excited to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here too.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

So one of the things as we were sharing in our long car ride together, and you started sharing with me about the book that you co-wrote, it really started me to think about how being a mother, a parent, is often not viewed as leadership. At least, I'll be honest, for me, it has I didn't view it as leadership. I just viewed it as like a role that I have. It's an important one. But I don't know if I ever thought of myself as a leader because I'm also a mother. And as I kept hearing you talk, I really wanted to make sure that you were a part of this season on the listening leader so that we can glean from you and the work that you and Tara did. So why don't you tell us about your book, which is Moms at the Well, Meeting God through the Mothers of Scripture. Tell us about that book. What prompted you and Tara to write it, and what can we gain from it?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Sure. Well, I'll show you a picture of it. Here it is. Lovely. And well, it's kind of a long story, but the funny thing is motherhood has been so challenging for me that I would say that I had all the conflict and none of the resolution through much of my young motherhood. So when my son was two, and he's my youngest, so I'd been a mom for about seven years at that point. I basically kind of hit this super low point, so low

Low Point That Sparked Writing

SPEAKER_00 3:40

that my husband sent me away to his mother's apartment for a spiritual retreat. And all I could do on the spiritual retreat was write about the challenges of motherhood. And this need to write as a way to process and pray and to put out there what I was going through felt uh like a call from God in a way I felt a call to ministry for the work I do. And so uh Tara also was a writer, and she and I and our friend Tim, we he was our student, or he was my student at Harvard when I was a campus minister. And because he had been working on a fantasy novel and Tara had been working on some writing, we decided to start being a writer's group. And I wanted to start writing this book back then. So this is in 2002. But like I say, I had all the conflict and on the resolution. I knew what was so hard about being a mom. Um, I was a person who'd been pretty successful in almost every part of my life. And yet, motherhood was a place where I felt like I was failing. And I felt like I was failing largely because all of my sinful patterns, especially my inability to control my temper and my inability to be patient, just came roaring to the front. And I can't tell you how much I worked on repenting, going up for inner healing prayer every Sunday, you know, going through inner healing classes. I mean, I did everything I could to try to work on this. And yet I was seeing very little success. So Tara and I have been part of a prayer group since 2004. So it happened a couple of years into us being in a writer's group. We were a prayer group that came around a friend who was going through a crisis in her marriage. And uh, so our first year of praying for her, we were mostly praying for her because of the crisis. But within eight to 12 months, we realized everything we were praying for her about, we could use for ourselves. Like we needed every single thing we were beseeching God for for her. And so this prayer group has been a community of mothers that has walked with me and loved me and heard my confession week after week about what's been hard. So, so much so that uh during pandemic, it Tara and I had a conversation. Um, she has a book that I want her to write someday on grief. She has quite the story around grief, and that actually is her academic field as well. So I think there's a book out there for her on grief. And I was telling her, I we need her book on grief. And she came back with at me with, well, why don't you write it with me? Why don't we co-author it? And I'm like, that is not my book. Because I had at that point had not had very much grief. And she's like, How about the boyfriend that you had in your 20s? I was like, that is not, you know, so many years later, that is not the story of grief. Um, I mean, the irony is now I've lost both my parents. There's been more grief um in my life. But but she was basically badgering me about co-authoring her book, and I finally said, How about this? You help me write my book, and I'll help you write your book. And she's like, done. And so she's like, but we should start your book first because I actually know something about spiritual formation for moms. And you don't know anything about grief, especially I mean, I know about grief, but you know, I'm no expert in grief.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Right. Wow. So I love this, and I thank you for just right out of the gate starting with vulnerability. Um, I just want to honor that. And I think that there are very few places where as mothers we can be vulnerable, um, especially in the workplace. There's very low opportunities to be vulnerable, and in some instances it will cost you if you're vulnerable. And unfortunately, I feel like that that's the same scenario for being a mother to be able to share those areas where we're struggling. And um,

hy Moms Need Safe Community

SPEAKER_02 8:00

you know, I I led a women's small group pre-COVID. And I want to say we were all mothers in that group. It was maybe 10, 10 to 12 of us, I think, total. And we started off reading the book Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. That was sort of what we what caused us to come together, and I facilitated us reading that book together. And it grew in so many ways. Like it took us like almost two years to finish that book. Because, well, first of all, experiencing God is very dense and very rich. It's not an easy casual read, but we we really just sat in those chapters and in those pages, and we talked about real life in context of what we were reading. And I'll never forget, I think at this time my son was in high school and we were facing some challenges with him. And I'll never forget one of the members of my life group who also happens to be a licensed professional counselor. She challenged me on the way that I was speaking about my son, which was negative at the time. I was so frustrated. Um, I also felt like I was failing as a mother. I was also hurt by some of the decisions that he had made at the time. And she was like, Kelly, I need you to speak life. I need you to speak life about your son. And I was like, whoa, you know, like um it it I felt like my toes had been stepped on, but it I needed it. I needed that accountability, I needed that check. And I'm thankful that I had the space to be vulnerable and share how I was talking to my son at the time, and that the Lord met me there and convicted me of really shifting the way that I was speaking about him, right? We know the scripture, death and life are in the power of the tongue. And I was not choosing life at that time. And so talk a little bit about some of the lessons that we can learn or how we can meet God through the mothers of scripture.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Well, there are a couple ways I I could go. Let me start by saying it just sounds like your community was so important for you. And the fact that you could be honest about your son and your struggles gave you the word of life from a friend. And so, really, the vision we have for this book is for mothers to meet God, but also to meet one another. Because you talked about how hard it is to be vulnerable in in the workplace. Uh, I think it's actually really hard to be vulnerable in mom culture, and it's very hard to be vulnerable often too often in the church. And so when we can, and yet the whole gospel is based on the fact that we're sinners, right? We're we're women in need of grace, and we need the power of the Holy Spirit to carry us moment by moment. There's very little control we have, right, over some of the biggest things that we care about in life. So I would say that, you know, I'm just really happy that you have that group. And what I would love to see, and Tara and I would love to see, is many, many moms experiencing that sort of community in in groups where they can be sharing honestly and vulnerably about what's hard. And then to be lifted up in prayer, to be lifted up in challenge, to be held accountable, but to always have the forgiveness, grace, and listening ear, right? I think that the most painful thing that I experienced, I think, through motherhood was when I felt condemned by other moms who uh, you know, I mean, the irony is for many moms with their first child, if their first child is easy, they think they're doing great. So they can be kind of judgy. And then all of a sudden a kid comes along who's really difficult and you can't be judgy anymore. I had to struggle from the beginning. So I never could be a person who was very judgy. Um, but uh, in terms of our book, we surveyed both Tara and I are social scientists by training. So we surveyed over 700 moms to hear about their experiences of motherhood and to uh learn more of what their walk with Jesus was like through the journey of motherhood. And this book, Moms Uh at the Well, is actually, we had about 14 chapters and 14 major issues that came up, but we took the top seven. So we're looking at anger and worry and uh competition and comparison, just a lot of the top issues. But perhaps when you ask about scripture, the patron saint of our book is Hagar. And it's been interesting as we have, you know, talked to people, realizing how few people actually read the story of Hagar. So Hagar, we meet her in Genesis 16. She is the enslaved um Egyptian young woman of Sarai, the wife of Abraham, or Abram at the time. And she,

agar And The God Who Sees

SPEAKER_00 13:31

so she's not part of the family, she's not part of their family culture. She is about 200 to 300 miles from home, probably was given to Sarai by Pharaoh when they were in Egypt. And because Sarai uh becomes impatient with God's promise that they will have a child, she gives Hagar to Abram. And, you know, if you look at church history, people have actually reviled Hagar as being because it says she despises Sarai. But, you know, if you're forced into sex slavery, that you would think that you probably would despise the person who forced you into sex slavery. It's hard enough to be ripp from your family and be enslaved, but to then be forced to be a slave in that way, uh, I think she's justified in being really upset. And so uh Abram gives Sarai the permission to mistreat her, do whatever she wants. So Sarai begins to mistreat her so badly that Hagar runs away. And when she runs away, you know, here she is. She's pregnant, she's a woman, she's alone, she's traveling alone, trying on the road to Sure. So basically trying to go home to Egypt. Her parents probably sold her into slavery because of poverty, right? So there's probably no family on the other end. And what are the chances that she's gonna make it back? And so this woman who's marginalized and outcast in every single way stops at a well for a drink, and the angel of the Lord shows up to her. And this is the very first time the angel of the Lord ever shows up in scripture, and the angel of the Lord shows up to an Egyptian, enslaved, pregnant, young woman. And before this experience of the angel and Hagar, you know, they knew something of God, but they didn't know God very well. And through the experience of Hagar, um we learn that God is the God who sees. So she is the only person in all of scripture who dares name God. She names him Elroy, the God who sees me. And we also learn that God is the one who hears because God tells her to name her son Ishmael, which means God has heard my misery. So we learn through this woman, Hagar, who God is, that when we feel unseen, which is the name of our chapter, uh, God is the God who sees us and God is the one who hears us. And so we want moms to experience that as well as to do that with each other, to see each other and hear each other.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Wow. I love that you're highlighting Hagar. And I remember when we met at the Atoon retreat and you were sharing that with me. She's definitely one of the women and mothers in the Bible that, you know, she's not highlighted for the Mother's Day sermon at most churches. Let's just say that, right? She's not one of the popular women or popular moms in the Bible. And it's really sort of coming back to me how much you all focus on her and and how many lessons there are in this, especially from the standpoint of being a listening mother in this case. Um and it and I'm correct me, I think when I thought about the story of Hagar, I thought Ishmael was already born. I thought that Ishmael was under a tree and then and then the angel appeared. So I think I need to like go back and read it.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

But Well, Hagar is actually our chapter one, okay, which is when you feel unseen, which is the story I just told in Genesis 16. Um, but she shows up five chapters later in Genesis 21, and that is the story you remember.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

And and that chapter is called When We're Um When We're Feeling Bitterness. Wow. But no, actually, that one is when our hearts are breaking. And it because the story gets worse. Uh, I mean, so part of the thing I probably shared with you is as we studied Hagar, we came up with what we call the five steps of spiritual transformation. And those are God meets us where we are, right? She's running away at the well, and God meets her. God invites us into an honest conversation. The first thing the angel of the Lord says to Hagar is, Where have you come from? Where are you going? And she dares answer honestly. Like she says, I am running away from my mistress Sora. I mean, she literally tells

ive Steps Of Spiritual Transformation

SPEAKER_00 18:20

the truth. And then the angel asks her to go back. And that to me is our our third point that God invites us to trust and obey. And of course, that feels really, really, really hard because how can God ask her to go back into slavery? But uh, he gives her all sorts of promises, along with the the call to go back to Sarai. And what we see and can even surmise from reading about her life after is our point four, which is that God transforms us and sets us free. And the last point we have is God um calls us to be agents of shalom. And so, you know, and one of the in studying her, we learn that God is the one who sees, right? So the the well where she meets the angel of the Lord is named after her experience there from then on. So she ends up being a matriarch who teaches her whole family about who God really is. But the story gets worse because basically Sarai gets renamed to Sarah, Abram gets renamed to Abraham, they have their baby Isaac, and she just can't stand that Ishmael's there. So she kicks them out. And that's why the the and God comes again. So what you're remembering of Hagar is Genesis 21.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Ah, thank you for that clarification. I don't, I don't think I remember the part from Genesis 16. So this is encouraging me to not only read your book, but to go back and read that passage in scripture. And I love the phases of spiritual transformation that you're talking about because that arc, that path really sounds like the recipe for being a listening leader, whether in our home, in the workplace, in our churches, in our community, um, in particular, that honest conversation. Being a listening leader does require conversation with the Lord in our prayer time, but then to also pause and listen to what Holy Spirit has to say in response. And you're right, because I think it's really popular, you know, Jehovah Jira, Elroy, Jehovah Nisi, like all the different names and attributes of that we get of God through the different names that He has. Elroy is one of those like popular ones, right? The God who sees me, he sees me in my circumstance, he sees me, you know, when my child just had a stomach virus and threw up on me. He sees me when I'm in a presentation and I'm stressed. He sees us in all of these spaces, but we wouldn't know God in that way without Hagar's story. Before we continue, let me ask you: have you ever wondered how to tell if it's God's voice or just your own thoughts? In the Flow is so much more than a podcast. Each season, I produce a free resource to support your growth. And for this series on The Listening Leader, I created a free devotional called How to Hear God at Work. It'll help you slow down and recognize God's leading in everyday decisions, whether you're leading a team, a business, or your own heart. Visit im KellyJohnson.com and click on the resources

ree Devotional On Hearing God

SPEAKER_02 21:51

section to get your free copy today. And so maybe speak a little bit about your own. Journey as both a mom and a leader in the workplace. You're also a spiritual director. Is there a time where that honest conversation piece is really highlighted to you?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Well, I love that you picked up on our point too, because once we identified the five steps of spiritual transformation in Hagar's story, we realized they're in everybody's story. They don't always come in that order, but they are very, very present in pretty much everybody's story in life. And that's why our whole book is based on the

onesty With God Unlocks Obedience

SPEAKER_00 22:37

five steps of spiritual transformation. But as we look at people's stories, this step two, the honest conversation is actually the key. It seems like trust and obey would be the hardest. But what we see is that if you don't do the honest conversation in scripture, you don't ever get to trust and obey. And so for example, Sarai, we actually do look at her a little bit throughout in this first chapter. She actually gets a chance to talk to God when the three angels come to visit them a couple chapters later. And she laughs and they say, Why did you laugh? And she lies. That's right. And she says, I didn't, I didn't laugh. And that's it. That's the end of the conversation. And you know, people are like, it's so funny how I think that the church wants to often vilify the women in scripture. So people are like, Well, she was so bad because she laughed. But actually, if you look the chapter earlier when God told Abram about the baby coming, he laughed. So they laughed at the same thing because they're really, really old and they're not supposed to be having children anymore, right? And so, um, and with with Abram in chapter 17, when the angel or God says you're gonna have a son, and he laughs, they just keep on talking. In fact, that's why their son Isaac is named Laughter. Isaac means laughter. But for Sarai, she lies, and we never see her talk to God again. We never see her having that conversation with God again. And and so, and you can see this throughout scripture that when people shut down the conversation with God, it's really hard. I mean, you just shut God out. And so I think in my own journey, learning how to be honest with God actually somehow was something that I learned very, very young. And so when I was in high school and had the giant big emotions that you have in high school, the betrayals, the big, giant fights with my mother. I mean, all the things. I my mom had bought me a little tiny portable typewriter. This is back in the day that we had typewriters. And we had to take typing class. And so she had bought me a little portable typewriter because I had to take typing class. It was mandatory at my school.

raying Raw And Hearing Back

SPEAKER_00 25:04

And I would uh and I got very fast at typing. I became a very fast typist. So I can type about as fast as I can think. So I would put a paper in the in the typewriter, and when I was having all this anger, I would type these angry letters to God, and I would use every swear word I knew, and I would cast, you know, I would be calling down God's wrath on people and whining and complaining and lamenting. And what I experienced in that was by the end of pouring myself out before God, I would actually begin to hear God, giving me God's perspective. And like even if I knew I was supposed to forgive and I would rail and rail and rail, right? God pouring out my heart to God, right? Having the honest conversation with God and getting the emotions out allowed me then to hear the voice of God with how, how am I gonna forgive? How am I gonna release? How am I gonna love? Um, it gave me new perspectives on the situation. And so, you know, when I went to college and told people about this, I went to college in the Midwest, and I think it was people like, you're not supposed to do that. How dare you do that? That you should not be screaming at God. And so then I got out of the habit, which was really bad for my spiritual life. Like what I learned in high school, I I wish I practiced as regularly, and I try to, but it was because it was so second nature to pour myself out to God. Uh I just want to encourage people to do that because every emotion is from God. We see God get angry, we see God get jealous, we see God somehow not sin in what we consider negative emotions. So we can go to God. And God is not afraid of our questions, God is not afraid of our passions, God is not afraid of temper tantrums, just like we as moms have to somehow get through our kids with their temper tantrums. God is not afraid of our temper tantrums.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

So good. It's interesting that we started this conversation talking about how there's very few places in our lives where we can truly be vulnerable. But I think we just answered the dilemma. Like our relationship with the Lord is where we can be vulnerable and raw and real. And based on you and Tara's study of scriptures, it's the linchpin, right? It is the, it is the dam that has to be released so that we can experience transformation. And I promise I'm not making this up, but this morning in my quiet time, where I practice, I do brief prayer and I do a brief period of just listening, just in stillness. And this morning, I did my little prayer. And I'm like, okay, Lord, I'm ready to hear from you. You know, I'm I'm all ears. And he was silent. And sometimes he is. And I felt like today he was silent because he was inviting me to write down my feelings, my frustrations in an area where I have been carrying anger and frustration for weeks now. And I've just been existing with it. And today I really felt like he was like, no, I'm just gonna wait. Because normally I'm there to like write down what I hear from the Holy Spirit in my quiet time. And he was like, No, today I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna hold. Because I want you to let out what you've been carrying and what you are not allowing yourself to fully recognize and process. You're thinking it, but you need to write it down. And so that's how I spent my quiet time this morning. I wrote down all the ways that I'm angry, all the ways that I'm frustrated, all the ways that I'm tired and just mad, that the situation hasn't changed. And I left my little prayer closet time with a level of shalom, as you said, peace, that I hadn't experienced in the weeks that I had been carrying it, thinking I'm the better person, I'm strong, you know, I can walk around and carry this um and be okay. But in the Lord's goodness and in his gentleness, he was like, No, I I know what you need. You need to get that out, and then we can deal with it.

unknown 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I mean, I always think that we are more like toddlers with the Lord, right? Even when we become mature. We're we're just, you know, when you think how big God is, yeah. We're we're always gonna just be like toddlers. Um which isn't to excuse, right? It isn't to say that we don't press towards maturity, it doesn't mean we don't become elders. I mean, I'm 60 years old, I should become an elder by now in in my communities. But but in the scheme of things, I'm always gonna be a child, right? With the Lord. And you know, when you think of your children and how the worst thing your child could ever do is shut you out. I I mean, currently apparently we're having this giant surge of children disowning their parents, right? And cutting themselves off from their parents. That is like the worst nightmare. A child who says, I don't want to be in relationship with you anymore, or I refuse to tell you what's going wrong on. I'm not gonna share my deepest hurts. And so, in the same way, I think with God, right? God wants to hear it all. God wants us to come to God with all of all that we have within us. Because God already knows, but the relationship is when you actually have back and forth. So good.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Wow. Okay, I want to cover, I mean, we're talking a lot about motherhood and sort of your five steps to spiritual transformation. How have you applied that in your career?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

It's been interesting for me because I felt a call to professional ministry when I was 14. I was actually in China. My fat my family was on sabbatical in China, and I had just read the book The Chosen by Heim Po Tok, which is really funny because it's about Orthodox Jews.

alling And Cost For Women Leaders

SPEAKER_00 31:40

And somehow I was like, oh, maybe I want to be a pastor someday. And my mother's first response when I told her is, you're way too much of a hypocrite. So, needless to say, uh, there was not parental support. In fact, there was incredible um, I think shame and, you know, my parents are Chinese immigrants, right? So to have your daughter to want to do ministry and not only be in professional ministry, but I raise support, I raise my own funds, right? It's very not prestigious. It's very not the immigrant higher up path. But yet it felt very, it felt clear to me at that age that this is a path that God wanted me to explore. And among those in my church who I really respected, I was very affirmed in it. I hit a place when I went to college in the Midwest where I had grown up in a tradition that affirmed women in ministry. And when I went to the Midwest, I was involved in a ministry that didn't believe in it. And I had never heard that before. So it was so I really had to go back to scripture, actually, and and be like, is everything wrong? Am I sinning by one? Am I usurping, right? Am I lusting for power? And and so it's been quite the, it was quite the journey when I was young. And it was so weird, right? Because I knew that by world the world standards, money, power, prestige, choosing to be in vocational ministry was really not high. While uh my family, everything in my family would have wanted me to be a lawyer, and I probably would have been a very intense lawyer. I think I could have been a very well, all my lawyer friends always say, you would have been a very scary lawyer. And so I think I would have been good at it, right? But I think it, but it wasn't the path that I think God had for me. And so really this the step of, you know, God met me with the idea. And then I just had many, many years of a wrestling conversation with God around is it okay for women to teach? And, you know, part of what made it very complex is uh because there was so much negative feedback around being a woman in ministry and being a woman leader, I really pushed down my leadership gifts. And I really tried to work on what I called the kinder, gentler spiritual gifts. So I worked on being a good listener and being an encourager and counseling was my undergrad major, right? All of these kinder, softer gifts. And I'm really glad I worked on them because I think they're very helpful. But it was funny because I had come on staff with the Innervarsity Christian Fellowship, which I've worked for for 35 years now. And uh I was leading an urban inner city program for students. And as part of the program, we had them do the super hyper intense seven instrument spiritual gifts test. And then so we staff also did it. And one of the tests included having two people who knew you well rank you according to your spiritual gifts. So, and one of them that I asked to do it was my co-director. Um, and the other one I asked to do it was my sister, because she was in college and she had come on the project. So, you know, two people who knew me really, really well. And they both put leadership as my top gift. And that whole, the seven instrument um said my top gifts were leadership and prophecy. And not prophecy in terms of foretelling the future, that test meant speaking God's hard truth into situations. And I was like, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I don't want it. This is why no one will date me. This is why I got kicked out of a Christian community.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

This is, you know, it was just so I did not want leadership to be my gift. But it's pretty clear that it's probably my top, one of my top two spiritual gifts. And so, so a lot of prayer and wrestling with God when I was younger, why would you give me these gifts if you're not calling me to use them? And not only calling me not to use them, but you've given me the desire to use them. And you've given me the desire to use them in a very direct way in your kingdom. And so, you know, so step two. Again, it's step two, and then trusting, obeying, right? I'm gonna make these steps of faith, even though when as God opened the door, as I always said I wanted to be a pastor because I never wanted to have to raise my own support. And so an inner varsity recruited me for five years. And I was like, no, no, no, no, you go work for the church where they give you a paycheck. And God finally brought this opportunity that I was like, I was so excited about. I was jumping up and down with my staff worker who was recruiting me. We're both, we're we're both very exuberant. And so, you know, it's just funny, right? When God brings you what you're feeling called to, there was just so much joy in it. And and Innervarcy has been a great place for me. It's a ministry that has where other ministries and other places have not particularly affirmed me as a woman or as a woman of color, uh, where being Chinese American is seen as a deficit, like you're not a quite normal white person. Innovation has been a place that's embraced my uniqueness as a woman and as a woman of color. And so, so you know, God, God knew best where I should be and where I should serve. And it's been a process of in the ministry of just following these five steps. And, you know, it's funny that you mentioned experiencing God in Blackaby because after I did the Experience God program, from I was like, first of all, I thought, yes, this is exactly how God works. And ever since, that is exactly how I lead the ministry, that the different parts of the ministry that I've led, you know, we look for where God is already at work and then we join God there. And we trust that God is always at work. There is no part of creation where God is not at work. And so we just pray and ask God to show us, show us where you're at work, and then show us how we can join you. And I always joke that uh God showed up so tremendously through, I lead faculty ministry for Innovarsity, and so God showed up so tremendously through the pandemic in

eading By Joining God At Work

SPEAKER_00 38:07

very unexpected ways. We would pray and say, and I often will pray, our team prays every Monday we meet, uh, and the first third of our meeting, half an hour, we pray. And so over the years, I'll I'll get to the place where I'll be like, okay, you've shown up, you've given us what we're supposed to do. I see that there's a gap coming. So, Lord, what are we supposed to do? Where are we supposed to go? And so we just start praying that, and I start praying that, and God shows us. God shows up and shows us the way.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

So beautiful. It was interesting when we met. We're both Enneagram Eights, and just that energy that can come. And it's hard to be an Enneagram eight and a woman, and to be an Enneagram eight woman, Christian, and woman of color. Like that just, I'm like, Lord, why did you make me this way? Being a male and that leadership energy, that decisiveness, you know what needs to be done, you likely know how to do it. That's not always welcomed when you're a woman, especially a woman of color and a Christian, because for some reason, being a woman and a Christian, there's there's this idealized version of that that doesn't always fit different giftings and different callings. I think it's unfortunate that there's so many boxes that as women, we are often forced to try to fit into. So everything that you're sharing today is resonating so strongly with me. I hope that women will get you in Tara's book, which again is Moms at the Will, Meeting God through the Mothers of Scripture. And I know that you both have another one on the way. So why don't you tell us a little bit, give us a little teaser for that one?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Well, IVP, our publisher, says they don't want us to talk about it as book two. Okay. But in some ways it is, because as I said, we had 14 topics. And so this is the part we didn't get to write about. And we actually kept one of our very best chapters in case we got a second book. So this one is mom's on the way. Part of what is really fun for me about that is I walk the Camino de Santiago. And so, and the Camino means the way, right? So thinking about walking with Jesus, he is the path, right? He is the way, he lays out our path, he walks with us on the path,

ew Book Teaser On Shame

SPEAKER_00 40:51

and then he is the destination. And so just even using that metaphor as we think about motherhood, right? That Jesus walks with us, and we invite mothers to do that as well. The chapter we kept back was on shame and, you know, the mother load. And so, although we begin with when we need a friend, because loneliness was so, so reported in our survey, and we we just really felt like we had to hit that full on. Uh, our chapter two is on shame because we realize shame is at the heart of so many of the struggles that we as moms face. So we go on to resentment and bitterness and scarcity. So, you know, I mean, all hard topics, but these were the challenges that moms said that they had for both for the first book and the second book. And so, again, it's been a joy to study scripture deeply and see how Jesus and God show up for all these different mothers in scripture, so many of whom we haven't spent much time studying.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Yeah. And so needed because everything that you and Tara are talking about within the context of your two books shame, loneliness, bitterness, all of those can be blocks to hearing from God, right? And so I love that you all are tackling these deep and hard topics because it's so necessary. Also, the lack of community. I shared earlier, and you also echoed this in your own journey with a prayer group that started off praying and interceding for a friend, and then you realize, oh, wait, I need these same prayers for myself. Um, that community also helps us to hear God as well. And so I love that you all are really serving women in the kingdom in this way. All of this will help us become better listeners in the different roles and hats that we wear. Before we started recording this, we were talking about just how so much of our lives are compartmentalized. And we wear the professional hat at work, we wear the motherhood hat at home if we're mothers. If we haven't given birth to children, maybe we wear the auntie hat, right? We go to the games, we go to the events. If we're a sister, a daughter, you know, we we tend to unfortunately have to compartmentalize. And my heart and my desires to help women really live

losing Encouragement And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 43:19

integrated and to continue to sharpen our ability to hear from God so that we can grow in wisdom, we can grow in all the different ways that God has called us. And Kathy, what you and Tara are doing certainly contribute to that. So thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Oh, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Thank you for flowing with me today. If this episode strengthened your spirit and leadership, be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. Remember, deeper clarity starts in community. Visit Iam KellyJohnson.com for free devotionals. And to learn more about Raya Circles, where faith and leadership truly go together in the flow.