A Low Life in High Heels to the End: Holly Woodlawn Part 5

If you’ve made it this far, congratulations! This is the final installment of our Holly Woodlawn series and it’s not a quiet last act.

The deaths of Andy Warhol, Candy Darling and Jackie Curtis left Holly looking for  a fresh start and with that, her Hollywood chapter began. Fate led her to meet Jeffrey Copeland, the unexpected co-writer of her life story, A Low Life in High Heels, which has been the main source for this series. Jeffrey wrote another book just last year called Love You Madly, Holly Woodlawn that reveals the way he cared for Holly, dedicated himself to her book, and came out the other side with nothing, despite the fact that Madonna herself wanted to produce a film based on the book.

With cameos from Maila Nurmi, Hibiscus, Gorilla Rose, Lily Tomlin, and Divine, this is a finale you won’t want to miss.

Links:

Famous photo “Flower Power” featuring Hibiscus : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Power_%28photograph%29

Divine Knew - https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/13dp99w/divine_knew/

Transcript

Welcome And Weather Whiplash

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Hello and welcome to Dead and Kinda Famous, where we dig into the life stories of dead folks who enjoyed a touch or two of fame in their time.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Now reside permanently in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

I'm Marissa Rivera, and I know nothing about this part five of Miss Hollywood Lawn, but I do know that it no way in hell is still winter. It was 99 degrees today.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I was gonna ask you. I got warnings. I still get warnings on my phone, like about the area. So it was like heat warning, Pasadena heat warning in Los Angeles. Danger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

If you step outside, it was like it was awful today. And I was like, I cannot believe that it's still technically winter. That is insane. I don't know how that's still a thing. Yeah, it is 8 20 p.m. my time, local time Los Angeles. At the moment, we're recording, and it is 80 degrees still. And if you don't know this about Los Angeles, is that uh it can get hot during the day, but it cools down at night. It like gets down to the 60s, sometimes 50s, very, you know, desert. In the winter, especially. In the winter, especially, like it can get warm, but it does cool down.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah. Uh it is feeling like August. This is crazy. I know what's gonna happen in August. I'm scared. It's literally snowing here right now. It is snowing so much that like there's it's white everywhere. Like they haven't even plowed the roads yet. It's actually very it's like not it's not scary snow either. It's actually just really pretty. Like it's like it's really pretty.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

And yeah, oh, that's gorgeous. And aren't you so lucky that you work from home? Imagine. Imagine it's Tuesday, you know? Imagine having to leave your cozy home. And no, I can't. So I don't care what people say. I prefer the heat over the cold. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Did I almost die today? I sure did.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah, actually, I've been kind of enjoying it. I feel like having a garage is really clutch, and I don't even have to commute it every every day. But that was like, listen, we're not gonna, we're not gonna like have to scrape off the car and no no no no no no. Dig it out doing it. Not doing it. I did that shit. I used to have to like find a parking spot in Chicago and like scrape off the car and like put a chair there after you dig it out to like save your space, like a psychopath, because that's how it works there. And I'm just like, and and then when I didn't have a car, I had to like wait for the bus in the fucking cold. Like I am so glad I'm not doing that anymore. That is the kind of winter I can't do anymore, you know? The like I'm poor and I work at a bar.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

These bones are too old for that nonsense. These bones are too old.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Exactly. They ache in the cold. Um that's right. Okay, so I am Courtney Blomquist.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Um and we riffed for a while.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

We did. I'm Courtney Blomquist, and I know everything about what we're gonna talk about, but I don't know how people here are uh ever ice fishing. They're not right well, actually maybe they are again because it got cold enough again. It kind of melted for a second. But um I for those of you who've never seen this kind of environment, people have like tiny little ice houses that look like little shacks or something that they drive a truck out onto the lake on and put it out there, and they dig a hole in the ice and they sit there with their case of beer or whatever, and they just that's relaxing for them.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

And I have watched too many, too many ice breaking, you're trapped and you die seeds. Oh, far too many to ever drive a truck. That is I know.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Every time I see a car out there, I'm like, no, because I've heard stories about I forget what lake it is, but I think it's here. I read like an article about it or something. And basically there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

No, is it a famous, is it, is it a lake famous for swallowing people in clouds?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Well, no, but there was like a long, long time ago, I guess there were people like a bunch of like men, I don't know what was happening, I don't remember the details of this, but they fell through the ice and died. And so people go out there and then it's like they they claim that they can hear people like moaning and saying things like it's so cold and things.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

And like, and then I do not I do not mean to laugh, but Courtney's face and impression when she did that, uh you can't see her. Utterly ridiculous. Utterly, excuse me. I'm so cold, so cold.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah, like and but I think that what they're actually hearing people say that there's like you know, cracking ice sounds or thing, not cracking, but like just like pressure sounds and things that happen. And even just that, even if it's not a ghost, like I don't I don't want to hear that. I don't want to think about that. I don't think about the people who have died as I carelessly drive a truck onto the ice like nothing's gonna happen to me. That's crazy. So I don't know. That level of Minnesota crazy is um something I don't understand. It's I can't get grounded into that. I think that's insane. So there is that. Yeah. Can't relate. Um like it couldn't be me. Nope. Don't drive a truck onto ice, uh I would say. Probably not, no.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

So and you probably and you know who probably would also never do that? Or maybe she would because she's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Miss Hollywood lawn.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yep, Miss Hollywood. She would do it without, remember, she didn't have a winter coat, so she drove to California. Oh my god. Or tried to drive to California, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Didn't make it, and then she'll and then she'll no, she'll make it all the way here and then dive heat stroke.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, exactly. So, all right, so let's get into it. Let's get into it. Yeah.

Women In Revolt And On-Set Chaos

SPEAKER_02 6:35

When we last left Holly, she was doing an unhinged interview with Gary Caminas and taking a surprise swig of beer that was stuffed in her vanity drawer. She just ripped that can out, took a swig, put it back in, slammed the drawer like nothing happened, which was crazy to witness. Um she was getting mixed up with drugs and being very messy, which is nothing new, uh, as we are in episode five. Nothing new at all. Um that was a trend, and it's a trend that continues, you know, in the into this episode. And I'm telling you, just reading about her antics is making me so tired. I'm like, girl, put down your drink, your needle, and your speed. Just put it down, take a breath, take a nap. I am so tired for you. But that's not what Holly did at all. Like, at all. So, as discussed in the previous episode, shortly after Trash, she filmed another Paul Morrissey film called Women in Revolt. Candy Darling and Jackie Curtis ended up her sisters, her frenemy sisters, ended up having larger roles than her. And it seems to be because Holly was taking her real life annoyance and frustration with Candy out on her in their scenes together. She's like, I don't pay for therapy, I get it out on set.

SPEAKER_04 8:11

I get I get paid to do therapy. Yeah. Honestly, that's some stand-up comics that we know. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

And Holly says, My animosity toward Candy had ripened, and I pounced on every available opportunity to yell at her on a film. I was always screaming at her because it was a way for me to let out my aggression. And soon I found myself on hiatus until further notice.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, for anyone who needs that lesson, it's not professional at all to um bring your own baggage and personal issues to a scene, not just set the to a scene. Yeah, I mean, yeah, in a professional set, even like in class, it's like no, you don't you don't do that to the like no, it's supposed to be you're dealing with like what is it, imaginary circumstances. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

So not real ones, not real ones, and especially like I mean, all of all of the films were improvised, right? So I'm sure she let Candy have it. Exactly, yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Ugh so Oh no girl. Yeah, so the film ends with Jackie having a baby, Candy jetting off to Hollywood to be a star, and Holly, who was playing a wannabe model, peeing in the street with her underwear around her ankles.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Oh no girl. Oh no. You perhaps got the ending you deserved, I must say, in this particular instance.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, Paul Morrissey was like, um, just I'm feeling this out the way things are going, and I'm just what I'm seeing is you destitute in the street. So cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

Paul's art had imitated life indeed. Why the hell couldn't I have gone to heaven and had a big musical number for Christ's sake?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

So so mad. She's so mad. She's like, I know I'm a piece of shit. Just make me look better. That's your job. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

The edit is your like it's like the the people who are like, I was edited to be the villain.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's like, these aren't glamour shots, girl.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

No.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Um, but after Women in Revolt, Holly starred in a movie called Scarecrow in a Garden of Cucumbers. An

Scarecrow Film And Relapse Patterns

SPEAKER_02 10:55

incredible title.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah, an incredible title. Let me ask you, Courtney, did it have anything to do with cucumbers and or scarecrow? No. I mean, as far as I can tell.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

No. I don't believe that it did. Yes. Um, there's a lot of like really big over over-the-top titles happening throughout this, if you haven't noticed, especially when they were written by Jackie Curtis, which this was not, but still. So this was about a young woman named Eve who is heading to New York to seek fame and fortune, but is quote, bombarded with lunacy. According to Holly's book, this lunacy includes a wrestler little person who falls in love with her. Okay, a nun driving a cab, and other nonsense. So I kind of want to see it. I I don't really know her where to find it, actually, but it's sounds great in a lot of ways. Sounds insane. It wasn't a huge movie by any means, but Holly was put up in the Chelsea Hotel and she was getting regular pay. The filmmakers even seemed to have some connections because Lily Tomlin actually made a voiceover cameo in the film. Oh my gosh. Yeah, she was like on the phone with Holly in one of the scenes.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Um, and they were I wondered, like, I wonder who knew her and like how bored she was. You know what I mean? Yeah. What was the what was the connection? And and I think the directory.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Uh the director knew her. And in fact, like this movie, I didn't put this in here because I was confused by it, but it seemed like they had connections to Bette Midler. Like, Bette Midler came up at this point in the book of Fairamount, and it was basically like, she's getting too famous to do any of these things that we thought she was gonna do, which is interesting. I'm like, it just feels so completely not Bet Midler. Um not that I think she was like gonna really like be a huge person in this movie, but I think she was gonna do like a little something or and I I believe they used one of her songs. I think she allowed that. So um that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Okay, yeah, yeah. They just so many fingers and so many pies.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

So these filmmakers were far more professional than Holly was used to.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

As Holly says, they even had a clapboard marking the beginning of each scene.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, so funny. Big time. It's a big time.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

It's it's it's so real with the clapboard.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, and it's funny. I mean, I don't know what it was like back then, but it's just very easy to get a clapboard. Like, um, very cheap. And yeah, anyone can get one, and it's not, yeah, doesn't really mean anything. So yeah, so funny. Of course, Holly did not match this professionalism. She got drunk on set and the director threatened to pan the whole movie if she didn't cut it out.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

No. So this is such addict behavior. It's so bad. That's so bad.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah. So she did for a time change her ways, and in the same breath, she started dating Johnny, the underage high schooler again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

Oh, yeah.

unknown 14:26

I know.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

You were new, it's so we were rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. Documentary.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

I haven't watched, I've watched clips. I haven't watched the whole thing because I I know how triggering it's going to be.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

There is. I was realizing how, oh my god, this is such a tangent, but I was realizing how like how some of those scenes stuck in my head. Like I still remember some of those scenes are core memories growing up. Yes, yes. And it's like we wonder why everyone we know has, you know, had an eating disorder at that time. And like also why. Um, and then I remember like the part where um Terra Banks is like, cheating is so bad. And I always just tell my man, like, flirt so much and then come home and do me. And I don't know why that stuck in my head, but it's like I was like, oh, I remember this. I didn't even remember where that was from. And it's from America's Next Top Model. That's what we're talking about. Sorry, we didn't even like say anything about that. We assumed you knew. You probably do. Listeners, yeah, you do. You know. Um, yeah. So anyway, yeah, we were rooting for you. Because Hollywoodlawn um was not comfortable unless something about her life was absolutely insane and effed up. Luckily, that didn't last long, and they had another dramatic breakup, which is, yeah, very fortunate.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

So toxic.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Just, I mean, it's beyond toxic. It's um not legal, it's gross, it's like revisiting the shit that was messed up about her youth.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Get it together, stop repeating cycles. I know that's easier said than done, but in this case, it's just hard to sympathize, you know? So this is the shittiest part of her for me. Um, for probably anyone. So moving on.

Party Hopping Theater Stunts And Arrest

SPEAKER_02 16:21

From there, Holly did a few more film projects, but began to focus largely on theater, cabaret, and flitting from party to party that Andy Warhol hooked her up with whenever she came around to ask for a buck and a secondhand invite.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Andy always got a pile of invitations. And if there was booze and eats, I did my best to show up at these free-for-all soires. That's how I supported myself. I didn't work. I just drifted from party to party. And since there was a party every night, I didn't have to worry about starving. Listen, you know what that gives? That gives I'm a PA on set, and I'm gonna take home two to three to go boxes from lunch. That's crafty, yeah. From crafty. Yeah. I'm gonna stuff my backpack full of crafty.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Or not even a PA, like an extra, like somebody who's there for like the day. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I definitely know that's that's what people do.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Yeah, yeah. I know that life. But I mean, you know, I guess that was like early 20s life. How old is she right now?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Uh she's probably um at this point she would be like late 20s. Oh, okay, okay. It's not like she's not like it's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

You know, I hope I feel like this is when people usually, I don't know, I don't wanna generalize, but I feel like late 20s is when you really start to get your shit together because it's like, oh my god, I'm almost 30. I need to get my shit together. I don't know. I she's like such an addict though. Yeah. And and like really, I don't what's the rock bottom? Is she gonna have a rock bottom?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Uh well, I mean, she already almost overdosed on heroin at this point in the story. So Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

So, like, what's it gonna take?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Uh this is one of those things where you see you kind of see it play out till the very end, I guess. It just it's I think it's hard with this kind of person where it's like the addiction goes from different thing to different thing, you know? Right. Um, she will curb herself in certain ways, and then she but she like can't help but dive into another area. She's gotta have something going on.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Next thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

So she was going to a lot of parties. Um one of those parties actually was John Lennon's birthday party that Yoko, yep. I mean, she's getting invitations like from Andy Warhol, and I don't know. It's weird. It's almost like very transactional for him, where it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. I I did only pay you $25 a day. You know what? Yeah why don't you go to this fabulous party that I don't have time to go to? So she went to this party, and and they invited a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

So did she like did she go as like his liaison or kind of just like Andy Warhol plus plus plus?

SPEAKER_02 19:37

I think she just went as like an Andy Warhol factory member or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like she had that like attachment. So it's John Lennon's birthday party. Yoko threw it for him in Syracuse, which like I don't know, I don't get that. And um chartered, yeah, chartered a bus though for a bunch of New York.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

Maybe, maybe something, I don't know, maybe there's like a cool happening spot in Syracuse that we don't know about. Because I I absolutely know nothing about Syracuse in New York in New York. I mean, let us know. I don't know. Maybe, maybe it's so cool and hip and happening.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

There was like a pocket, an artist's pocket. Listen, maybe even back then there was a great Airbnb in every city. Who knows? That's right. Um maybe it was the den of iniquity. Exactly. So um, so yeah, she chartered a bus to bring a bunch of New York weirdos to Syracuse um and come attend. Party busy was one of them.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

The original party bus.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah, and they had this poor girl with like a little drink cart, like rolling it down the middle of a bus, which is like so much worse than a plane. And she just like everyone was like already messed up when they got on the bus. And so she just like abandoned the cart and was like, serve yourselves, and like ran away, you know? Um, yeah. And of course, Holly was like she claims the first one to like get up and start pouring herself a drink and everybody else, of course, you know. Of course, she's like, I'm a hostess for the stuff I didn't pay for. It's very, very Hollywood long. Very her, very on brand. Exactly. So when it came to the theater opportunities that I was mentioning, it started when Candy Darling dropped out of one of Jackie Curtis's plays. So Holly took her place playing a mermaid in a wheelchair. You know, makes perfect sense. Um and if you're curious and would like to try to do a scene from this play for your next acting class, Marissa. Oh, yes, I must.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

I really gotta stretch my wings or as I or flop my tail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

The play, the play is called The Vicissitudes of the Damned. And you can look it up because I didn't. Um

SPEAKER_04 22:00

She did not.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

I didn't. And I think, wait, hold on. We I'm curious. I have looked up this word before and I already forgot what it means. So let's look it up. This means vicissitudes. Fun to say. Um, it refers to the unexpected, typically unwelcome changes or ups and downs in fortune, life, or circumstances. I mean, I feel that word in you know what? I'm actually, I'm not gonna lie, I'm surprised that the English language has that word. I feel like famously the English language is like we lacking don't, yeah, we don't have words for complicated like states of being and emotions and stuff. So it's a good word. I get it. Also, no one knows what it means, though, and probably doesn't make a great title, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Um well, neither did the the cucumber garden with the scarecrow thing. So Scarecrow in a garden of cucumbers. That's right, exactly. So this is part for the course. Okay. It is, yeah. So she takes Candy's place.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Um then and apparently the play got changed and rewritten all the time, um, like on a nightly basis. And sometimes Holly's character, yeah. It was just like so people would show up for this play like multiple times because they're like, I wonder what they're gonna do tonight. Okay, um yeah, it was a different show every time.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Oh, which that could be fun, but also like, I don't know, exhausting. Yeah, an absolute shit show from start to finish.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Especially with yeah, people like being messed up the whole time, which I'm pretty sure they were. Um and sometimes Holly's character could, you know, walk. Remember, she was playing a mermaid that could walk. And um, yeah, because she found her sea legs, I suppose. Uh I'm changing. Um but uh one day that was dumb. I know, I know. I loved it, and sometimes she was just like, I'm just a a mermaid in a wheelchair who's that's how I get around in a way. I'm kind of like, okay, wait a minute. Now that I'm thinking about this, a mermaid in a wheelchair would be like it would be so funny to watch.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

And it would also be like basically if Ariel It's just never explained. You know, I mean, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

But I mean, the part of it that makes it actually make sense to me is like, what if Ariel didn't get her legs at all? And she was like, but I have to be with you, Eric. And then so she's like, I'll just roll around in this wheelchair and be a fish out of water for real, though. And uh, because this is the only way I can get around around, you know? So it's not like that she can't like that. It's not the same, it's just she's just a merm.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

This is no, this is a believable circumstance. Yeah, yeah. I could I could see it.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah. Um, but anyway, one night when Holly was using her wheelchair, Candy decided to show up and see the show. And Holly rolled off the supportive. Yeah. But Holly rolled off the stage.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Did Holly roll off the stage?

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yep, and fell directly on her.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Oh. And how how on purpose?

SPEAKER_04 25:09

I mean, how could it be an accident?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Well, could it could it, yes. I mean, that's some sh some true shot in Freud if it was an accident. So no, it was not for sure. Yeah. So Holly also, this is a fun fact, did a nude centerfold spread where she posed both in and out of drag for National Lampoon magazine. That's really cool. It is, except, um, you know, it's what they it's they didn't really well. Let me just go on. The layout was called Mucho Macho, and the article began.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Latin about Manhattan Herald, Santiago Rodriguez is one homebrey who knows what women want.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

So they were like very much like, I don't know what trans is. You're a man in drag, and that's how we're gonna frame this, and that's what we're doing. So, you know, not not ideal um at all. But her chocha was hidden by jewels, and the photos were apparently quite tasteful, and she really loved them. So that's good, I guess. I mean, the female ones, especially, right? Like the yeah. So the photographer of the shoot, Frank Calogi, rewarded Holly afterwards with a plane ticket to Puerto Rico, which is a great perk of any job. Um yes. Yeah. So, and I think I would uh basically I believe that that happened because Holly had this um sort of there was like I think guilt people had, it seems like, after hiring her for something, and then the project would end, and they kind of knew that it's like she had shaky living circumstances. She had, you know, like where where are you going from this? Like it was a little bit like, are you okay? You know, and uh because she just was always kind of floundering in her, she just had no stability like at all. So I think that I I think he just wanted to be like, I want to make sure you have somewhere to go, at least for a minute.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

You know? Um I think uh put your head down for a second. Take a little yeah, take a little rest.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Clear your head, yeah. Yeah. So so she goes to Puerto Rico and she caught up with uh the actor, his name was Sam, who played Jackie's boyfriend in Women in Revolt. Like she didn't know he was gonna be there, and so it's kind of a it was it's just random. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

That's so cool. I remember one time I went to Disney um and I was like in the middle school and I ran into a girl from my previous school from Puerto Rico randomly walking around in Disney. Do you know who ran to go on the same day and be at this at the same place, not only like Disney itself, but the same inside Disney World, the big one?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah, every time something like that happens to me, like I'm just like, how? Like it does feel it is a small world. It is a small world, Disney.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

We see you get it small world after all.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah, Iris won't stop singing that small that song. And she's saying, like, the lyrics are um sometimes anyway. She just goes, It's a world of tears, it's a world of tears, it's a world of tears. Oh my god. And I'm like, girl, you have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Is it the sign of the times?

SPEAKER_02 29:02

I know, but um, but anyway, yeah, I uh I once in New York ran into a girl I grew up with like getting on a subway car, like, which is also super crazy.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

Like, you know, just like what are the fucking odds?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

But yeah, everything is random and the world is actually quite small.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Everything is random and nothing matters, okay? And you can either that can either bring you joy and peace, or that can bring you terror. And the choice is quite frankly, yours and yours alone. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

So yeah, that's why, that's why we're all here, honestly. Let's distract ourselves. So, yes, Holly's in Puerto Rico, sees Sam, who played Jackie's boyfriend in Women in Revolt, and he was there with his girlfriend, Suzanne, who was this like curvaceous, cute blonde. Um, and he stole a pair of shoes for Suzanne. Just she tried them on, said she liked them, but she didn't, you know, she knew she couldn't pay for them or whatever, and just put them back. He stole them for her. And then he got all of them arrested, like running down the street with them, like an idiot. Yeah. Like, oh my god, for a pair of shoes. Yeah, you think you're being romantic, you're being a dumbass who's ruining everything for everyone in a huge way. So Sam actually fled. It's like he goes from being romantic to being like the biggest dick in the world. He just fled, he ran off, and though those two got arrested, Suzanne and Holly.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

What?

SPEAKER_02 30:30

They had nothing to do with it.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

What a dick.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

I know him. So basically, the charges were dropped against them eventually.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah, but Holly and Suzanne were trauma bonded because they were in a Puerto Rican prison together for a few days.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. You don't want to go to prison in general. Okay. You did not want to go to prison in Puerto Rico in the 70s. Okay. 80s?

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

80, I'll include 80 and 90s. Being a trans woman too. I mean, on top of Wait, is that is that where uh the scene, the very first thing I read was, is that where this is from? That time spent in jail in Puerto Rico. Oh no. Oh, a different time. Okay. Many jails.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Many, many jails.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Many, many jails ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah. Um, no, this was just this was the Puerto Rican jail. So um, so then Holly and Suzanne finally made it back to New York. Holly had a really, really weird moment where she was hooking up with Suzanne. Um what? Let it yeah, letting her wear her clothes and jewels and wearing the only masculine piece of clothing that she had, which was a pair of overalls, whenever she went out with Suzanne just to please her. So to explain a little bit, apparently Holly had stopped taking female hormones during this time and was very virile. So um she was wanting to, you know, she was feeling she was feeling those horny feels. And uh yeah, so and also like has said in the pastosterone is one hell of a drug, I tell you.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

I had a hormone imbalance, and um with the little extra I had, it was Christy. And I know, you know, my trans friends who are uh female to male, I mean, they talk about how it's like you're a horny 13-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

I think that it's I think it's at this American Life episode just called testosterone, actually, that like talks about this, like somebody who female to male, trans, and um just taking testosterone, like the complete difference of of what that is. Um yeah. So it yeah, but also just to say, I think it's not just that Holly was definitely bi.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

Like, I mean, she talks earlier, as y'all might remember about not the first lady she hooked up with, yeah, and she loved big big tits.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

It brought it out in her, I guess. So that's that's what we did.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Same girl, same.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah, but I mean, she didn't want to be like wearing overalls. That's not Hollywood lawn. She was like, this wasn't a dead end. This is a dead end. She's like, she's like, I fuck you, but I still want to look pretty. Yeah, exactly. And obviously that relationship ended because Holly had no intention of wearing the pants in a relationship. Come on.

unknown 33:33

No.

Reno Sweeney’s Candy Darling Divine

SPEAKER_02 33:35

So Holly started doing a show at a new gay club that catered to straight folks and the general public called Reno Sweeney's. It was like, you know, it was like everybody went there. It was it was a popular place. Um yeah, exactly. She sang, she did characters, her review in variety read.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

Holly Woodlawn is an absolute delight in an ultra-camp, totally outrageous way. While the singing is more to talk than pure vocalizing, it isn't bad. And if Woodlawn had a real singing voice, there would be no limit to how far he she parentheses question mark, she could go. Yeah. Well, the time just if she didn't just speak her musical parts. The distance she could go, but alas.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yeah, if she wasn't William Shatnering her way through this performance, that would have been a whole other level. Uh Shatnering.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yes. And Reno's was quite the popular club, like for real. David Bowie and McJagger were seen there together, by the way. Um Liza Minelli and Ethel Merman sometimes jumped up on stage and performed a song or two. So Okay.

unknown 35:05

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

This is a party. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

So Candy even came to see the show one night and was kind and supportive to Holly instead of throwing her shade, just really out of character.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

So immediately I was like, why? Yeah. What's going on?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

What's your angle? What do you want? Um, so shortly after Holly found out that she was being nice because she had been diagnosed with cancer and only had six months to live.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

So it's actually quite sad, but oh my God, I feel like such a bitch.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

But I was right. I knew there was something. There was a reason, yeah. I mean, it's good that her instinct was to be like, oh, I'm gonna be nice now instead of being like, fuck everyone, why did this happen to me? It could have, it could have been that way.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

She, yeah, yeah, it could have been.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Good honor. So she was in and out of the hospital during these months, but when she was out, she tried her best to hold her chin high and act like herself. For instance, she showed up to the premiere of Holly's film Scarecrow in a garden of cucumbers with a bag of tomatoes, saying, Just in case I need them.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Which is so shady. She we it's so shady, shady to the last. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

So in the end, though, Holly was there for her to help her apply blush in her hospital bed, which is very sweet. So they were, yeah, they were sisters. And by the way, I I think the reason for her cancer is largely unknown. But um, there I don't it I don't know. It's a strange time period where some of these things are a little bit new, and the hormones um that she was taking, uh, but some people think there were cancerous ties to that. Um, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

So well, you know, the early days of like and all hormonal stuff have been like yeah, and birth control and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Like I have relatives almost died from 70s birth control, so the blood clots. But yeah. Um, in the early 70s, Holly did theater a couple of times with another character we've discussed on this show before, Divine. Divine Divine Divine is back. Hello. Yes, you back, yes. The plays were women behind bars, how apropos, and neon woman. And in the last one, Holly played a lesbian stripper and she loved every minute of it. You know what, that it's good casting, I must say.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Good casting, good casting. It's great, and she had the experience to boot. I feel right. Yeah. So one of the many jobs that she was horrible at.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Yep, yep, yep. So Holly joined the play during the summer run in Provincetown and shared a little white beach house with Divine during the run, which is so cute. That sounds lovely. Yes. But Holly claims that Divine.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yes, little house on the beach with a cool castmate. Sounds great.

SPEAKER_04 38:18

Yeah, sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

But Holly claims that Divine was a hard person to get close to, largely because he was lonely and didn't have real friends, at least according to Holly. And by the way, I am using the right pronouns, Divine preferred he. So.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

According to Holly, I don't think Divine had any real friends. He was surrounded by a lot of people, but most of them sucked up to him because he was famous and because he always had grass. Usually, after these so-called friends came over, ate the food, and smoked the pot, they'd leave and Divine would be left alone to cry on my shoulder. Blubbering about that infamous scene at the end of John Waters' film Pink Flamingos, where he walked up to a squatting dog and devoured the excrement. I think that was Divine's biggest regret in his life because that's how he was remembered. And he hated it. That's not how I remember Divine. I remember Divine. When I think of Divine, I think of that meme where he's where he what does it say on it? Divine knew. Divine always knew. Yes. And she's like giving them the most bombastic of sides.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Oh yeah. Just it's yeah, it's wrapping around her head. It's or his head, but yes. Um, and so yeah, I agree. There are a lot of things I can think of with Divine. And also there's many John Waters films, and um, that's not the only one, but I get it. It's you know, it was shock it's shocking, it's memorable.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

If that's how you, if that's how you were remembered, though, and you know for eating shit, for eating shit, because actors already have that thing where they're just like yelled at as their character name, you know?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah. Uh so it's like imagine just be walking down the street and someone's just saying eat shit to you all the time. And that probably happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, no, that's that's a lot. Yeah.

Running Home When Work Dries Up

SPEAKER_02 40:33

So shortly after all this, Holly's opportunities were drying up. She made the decision in the face of that to head home to live with her parents, dress as a man, and work as a bus boy at Benny Hana. No. This is this is a hard left.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

This is a desperation, hard left. Hard left moving back in with the parents. But I Betty Hanna, I bet was like so busy and popular back then though. I bet that was kind of like a hard job. Sure. And also I bet they're busy all the time.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yeah, I think this was this is just a full-on desperation move. Of course it is. But uh, and it only lasted a year because she couldn't stand it anymore. I mean, she was like not being herself at all, living with her parents and working as a busboy. So yeah, so she headed back to New York, and this was around 1980.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

By 1985, Holly endured the death of her other dear sister, Jackie Curtis. Jackie. Yeah. Jackie, who Holly had always known to prefer speed as a vice, had died of a heroin overdose. So that's why. Never, never, never even once. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So by 1987, Andy Warhol was also dead, and the AIDS crisis was beginning to take a lot of her friends as well. She even mentions a friend named Hibiscus dying, which I have to imagine is the same hibiscus from the cockettes that we discussed in Tomated to Plenty's episodes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and remember Hibiscus? Hibiscus is the one who like started the cockettes and also um, as like a young, you know, hippie, uh, was putting the flower in the gun in that famous photo. Yes. Yeah, as a protester.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

We need to have that photo and we need to have the divine meme in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Okay, yes, true. Yes, exactly. Um, so yeah, so all the it's like all these connections, it's crazy. So by 1988, Holly had found her way to Hollywood to find a new scene, and that's where we get to the writing of this book that I've been using as a source for this whole thing. Wow, this fabulous, fabulous book. Yeah, A Low Life in High Heels. So let's talk about the other name on the cover of A Low Life in High Heels, Jeffrey Copeland.

Jeffrey Copeland And Writing The Memoir

SPEAKER_04 43:12

So I didn't even realize there was another name on it Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

I know it's messy. So I forgot too. Uh there's a reason. So Jeffrey's new book, Love You Madly, Hollywoodlawn, came out just last year, actually, and goes into great detail about Holly during these years. More than we can cover today, but I'll give you the important parts. Okay, give it to us. So in the late 80s, Jeffrey Copeland was an aspiring writer, aspiring gay writer. I should have made that clear in this writing. Um taking any writing adjacent gigs he could get, and was currently working as a secretary at a PR firm.

unknown 43:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

That's pretty adjacent that's adjacent to adjacent.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

That's adjacent to adjacent. That's like yeah. Whatever you can get is is really part of that sentence that matters. Yeah. Um he met Holly at a work-related party and was inspired by her and intrigued. He'd been yeah, he'd been wanting to write a script, and Holly instantly became his muse for a short, gritty drama script called The Dark Side of the Morning. Ooh. Yeah, The Dark Side of the Morning.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Um that is that is the best title that we've heard. Title? Come on. Let's give it, let's give it to Jeffrey. This is Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

You got some chops just for the title.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Just for the title. You have my respect.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yes. It was very dark, in fact. Not just it was it was very dark. It was about a young man with AIDS who dies by suicide. So very of the times. Yeah, it's too dark. So uh Holly expressed interest though, and she struck up a friendship with Jeff. Holly and Jeff met at Holly's apartment to discuss the film. And at this point in time, Jeff still was unsure of Holly's deal when it came to gender. But when he showed up at Holly's apartment, she was wearing a terry cloth robe with no makeup, and as she was excusing herself to use the bathroom, the robe parted. And you're Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Loud. I'm Jeffrey. This is gonna be Jeff this is gonna be Jeffrey's voice, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah, Jeffrey's from Missouri, and he is yeah. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Loud cymbals crashed. Horns blew to da! And all doubt and mystery as to whether Holly was a man or a woman flew out the window. There was no mistaking that prized hog or a vagina. Oh my god. That broad put the long and long and it made and it made me a nervous wreck. I tried not to look, but I had to peek just to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Thank God you didn't cut it off is exactly what went through my head.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

These are new details that we know.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Oh my god. Yeah, so Holly's glad I'm really close to can't let can't let that go to waste.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

My goodness. I feel like Holly, this looks I think this explains a lot. Holly's like, yeah, I I want I've uh I I've uh maybe gender reassignment, I don't know, but also but I also want to just keep what I got.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

Huge dick.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

I'm proud of it. I want to keep it. I get it. She was like, come on.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

If I had a huge dick, I'd keep it too.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

At this time, Holly was trying to do the cabaret hustle again and was preparing for her own small show. With his PR firm Almost Connections, Jeffrey was able to get her into quite a few fabulous parties in order to help her with publicity. In the end, yeah. So she made she had her benefits from this.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

She had a different now that I'm just gonna be sound so morbid, but now that Andy was gone, you know, this was her party connect.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Exactly. Um, we're already being morbid, it's fine. Um that's true.

SPEAKER_04 47:39

Not to be morbid, but and then like this entire podcast. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

In the end, the show turned in the end, the show turned out to be a big flop anyway, and Holly made no money on it. And I feel unsurprised by this because cabaret shows in LA just they're not they're not really sought after. They're not a thing. Tell me that I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Yeah, this is more of a a New York thing, too, in my mind. Like New York or Miami or Vegas.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah, exactly. Yes. I think it is just it's not as much of a live show city. There's a couple places for that, and they're not cabaret shows, you know?

SPEAKER_04 48:22

No, neither was at the time, but but not for Holly.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Right. So um, she made money in other ways. She made money the way she originally made money, in fact. Once again, all these years later, she was a sex worker, but she wasn't raking it in that way either. Oh, yes, she's learned nothing. She's learned nothing, yeah. But Jeff was shopping around the screenplay with Holly's details and photos attached in order to get representation and get the film made. But the man who called him back was actually an assistant of one of the agents who was not at all interested in the screenplay, but did have a hunch that the Hollywoodlawn story would make a great book. His name was Robert, and he would provide the push that was needed to make Holly's story come to life. Interesting. Super interesting. But when Jeff got this call, Holly had actually gone missing. She was Oh my God. Not to be found. Um, Jeff had to track her down and soon discovered that she was back in Florida helping her father with bookkeeping for his accounting business because she was flat broke and out of options. Again. Again. And going home had more drawbacks because Holly's parents didn't exactly understand her gender identity, and she typically dressed as a man when she was around them. I mean, as we've established, she was, you know, dressing as a man at Benny Hana. Yes. So when Jeff got a hold of Holly, she was obviously broke and was going to need some help to get an apartment. Jeff found her a spot at the Las Palmas apartments and eventually even ended up taking the apartment next door with a roommate. So they were close.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

This that's a it's a major crush. It's like I mean, it's it's a little bit. It's like a crush, a muse, uh a friend. Like the lines are a little blurred here.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

I mean, it's not just that, it's more like um they're both pinching pennies, I think, and also like uh he he had his.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

And they're working on this thing together.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

They're working on this thing together. He'd already done the apartment search, which can be a real slog in Los Angeles for Holly. He'd already made the connection with that landlord. Like, do you know what I mean? It's a real slog now, you know? It's a bitch. So it's like, I think, and also like he didn't have he had been like living in this like a studio apartment, and having a roommate was more made more financial sense. So he didn't Holly wasn't his roommate. Um, but yeah, so next door neighbors. Yeah, they were next door neighbors.

SPEAKER_04 51:07

It's like you and me, Courtney. Yes, I know. We were neighbors, and then and no, but it was you know magical. And then I ruined it. Yeah, no, I know, I know. And now you live in the snow. And now I live in the snow.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

But yes. So Holly, Holly, though, was back in LA and ready to dive into the book business. Um, after discussing it with Robert, it was decided that Jeffrey, inexperienced as he was, would be permitted to take a crack at writing a chapter of Holly's book for the book proposal.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

Jeffrey wanted to write it, and Holly said, Honey, I can't think of anyone I'd rather work with.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

And they were in agreement on the tone. Holly said, I want it to be Auntie Mamie on Speed.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

And Jeffrey says, The idea of writing a straight biography about Hollywoodlawn never appealed to me, but creating a character's voice that reminisced about her madcap romp through New York's underground scene was incredibly rich.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

So even though he was intimidated when he sat down to write, Jeffrey imagined Holly saying, Jeffrey, don't worry about writing this book.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

It's not to kill a mockingbird. It's a cheap thrill with me looking fabulous throughout. Just imagine me sitting on a stool, talking to the audience like I'm doing now. I'm the star. You're the writer. Go. I mean, yeah, that's how it, that's how the book feels for sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like he he her voice popped into his head and he just wrote it. And that's how Holly's hilarious storytelling voice that we have both fallen in love with in this book was born. It won over Robert.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Do you feel like you could write a book like if if you just had interviews with me, do you feel like you could write a book in my voice? I mean, yeah. I think I mean I feel like I would I think so. I think I could write a book in your voice.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Yeah, I know I so I get it. Yeah. I and I know your catchphrases and I know your, you know, I know your things. So I know, I know.

SPEAKER_04 53:28

And I and some of my catchphrases are from you, you know. You know when this, you know, when you become really good friends with people and like you know, you start talking like each other and like a saying goes around and stuff. Yes, and just like every everybody starts using stuff. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

I kind of love that because I feel like there's people too like I'm not close with anymore, but I still have hung on to a catchphrase of theirs. Do you know what I mean? It's like a little piece of that part, that person that I just am always gonna take with me.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

Yeah, yeah. Like a little piece of them influenced your personality in some way. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

I think that's great. So, so yeah, and he had I think he had an ear. Obviously, it had an ear because he hadn't known her that long, but he was picking up stuff. So it won over Robert, and he was given the green light to write the whole book. This was especially Yeah. And this was especially exciting because Jeff truly believed that Holly's story would make an excellent film, and writing the book was just the first step. So this book was the ticket they both needed at the time. And before we go any further, I just want to give credit where credit is due. Holly's story and personality were the ingredients for this book, but Jeffrey Copeland was the chef. Of course, he had to listen to Holly's stories and make sense of them. But that's that he put in the work. He put in the work. That is no easy feat when your subject matter had done as many drugs as Hollywoodlawn.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Like and would just disappear to Florida.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

And to keep a straight line through a story to have any sense of time, like what? Impossible. So in fact, they even took a trip to New York together to meet up with some of the characters of Holly's past and fill in the blanks that existed in her narrative because there were blanks. And well, I'm sure. I'm sure. And Jeff was very dedicated and took the process very seriously. And the proposal went over so well that there was a bidding more over the book. And yeah, it was like a good book. It's a good book. It pulled me in right away. I mean, and they eventually landed a deal, but it wasn't and it was, it was good. It was better than they thought it was gonna be, but because there were enough people involved in this book, it wasn't good enough that like Jeffrey could quit his job. But they eventually landed this deal. It wasn't enough that uh either of them could quit their day jobs, but still it was very exciting.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

And because when you make that first like good chunk, and it's like, well, this isn't you know a hobby anymore. And the you know, yeah, it isn't a hobby. This isn't the end all be all, but it is a big step in the right direction. That's so exciting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

So because they lived next door to one another and were practically roommates, Jeff would hand Holly his latest pages, she would read them, and then she'd knock on his wall in the wee hours of the morning, of course, oblivious to common sense, um, to go for a walk to Yum Yum Donuts down the street and discuss the chapter and give notes. And that was their creative process in a nutshell. They even just I love it. I do too. I think it's great. I love summer camp for writers. I love it. So they even discovered that our very own Mila Nerby lived right across the street when they lived there.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

Mila! We love you, Mila. We miss you. Milo like this. I'm yelling, I'm yelling from across the way. Mylan!

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Oh man. So they ran into her, they met up for dinner, and Jeffrey said that it seemed like both Holly and Mila were pretending to be fans of one another.

SPEAKER_04 57:20

Very, very them.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah, they I don't think they knew who each other were, but they really put on their acting faces.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

I love it. Mila gushed over Holly and told Mila gushed over Holly and told her how much of a fan she was, and Holly gushed over Mila and repeated the same compliments. The flattery struck me as contrived, and I wondered if it was sincere or just polite conversation. Just polite conversation. Probably just polite conversation.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Yeah, yeah.

Book Deal Neighbors And Late Night Edits

SPEAKER_02 57:56

So Jeffrey asked Milo to autograph an eight by ten of her that he brought with him, and she looked mildly horrified when he did this. And it's because he later found out that Mila always expected to be paid for her autograph.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Well, that was about the only thing she expected to be paid for. I know it's I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Like there's let her have it. Let her have it. The similarity of her and Holly is just like you're always barking up the wrong tree for cash, I feel like. Yes, you know? Yes. It's like that, yeah. So Jeff also helped her get a job at I'm sorry. Jeff also helped Holly get a job at a long-standing kooky Los Angeles store that I believe is still there called Wacko.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

That's like when you move here, people are like, have you been to Wacko yet?

SPEAKER_02 58:48

Yeah, I know. It's like it's in West Hollywood. It's it's fun. It's a fun store with like quirky gifts and stuff. It's like if Spencer's Gifts was like an independent store that had more unique things in it.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

Yeah, like stuff from the community.

unknown 59:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 59:04

Art and Totchkis, art and tchotchkis from the from this, from the city of LA. Yeah, maybe like less sexual.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Art to sons. Yeah, it's less. Well, I think there's a lot of cheeky.

SPEAKER_04 59:14

No, no, no, no. It's very cheeky.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

I was gonna say, okay, great. It's been a minute since I've been in there, but yes.

SPEAKER_04 59:19

No, no, no. It's very cheeky. There's like I mean it's West Hollywood. It's West, yeah, exactly. It's West Hollywood. Um, and for those of you who don't know, like West Hollywood is gay as fuck. So um perfect for Hollywood. It's gay and expensive. Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

Um you can cut this out if you want, Marissa, but I remember you saying that your ex-husband at one point was like, um, I think maybe we should move to West Hollywood. And you were like, okay, bye.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

And you know what? I still feel that way. If I have to pay double for the same thing and there's no parking, count me out. No, never ever.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Never it's a nightmare just to go there and for parking alone, honestly. Oh my God. Never ever will I live in West Hollywood.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:18

Yeah. So mark my words and don't edit this out. Mark my words. Mark my words.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah. It's a fun walk-around though. So, and it is a fun store. But Holly needed a job because without one, all she did was drink Chardonnay all day. Um, truly. And Wacko, yeah. So Wacko was run by none other than Gorilla Rose, the drag performer that was good friends with Tomato to Plenty and performed in The Wiz Kids and The Cockettes. Oh my gosh. I know there's so many tie-ins.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:53

They're all like running around in the same circles, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

100%. So Jeffrey went in there with Holly and sold Gorilla on hiring her with a long, elaborate little speech, and Gorilla hired her because, as it turns out, he was a fan, as he later told Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

I was blown away. I couldn't believe I was meeting the Hollywood lawn and you were asking me to give her a job.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

I mean, yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:24

I'm trying to think like what the is it gonna be like a is it gonna be like a don't meet your heroes moment, though?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

For I think that it was I don't think so. I don't think so. I think she when she left, it wasn't like she was fired. So I think so.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:39

Okay the one bridge that wasn't burned. Oh my god, that she didn't torch on her way out. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

So eventually the book was finished, published, and pushing Holly back into the spotlight just the way she liked it. There were parties, positive reviews, fan mail, and adoration. As Jeff puts it in Love You Madly.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:03

Fame was an aphrodisiac that attracted most underdogs to Hollywood. We believed it was the answer to all our prayers, the solution to all our problems, the magical snake oil that would ease our pain. And fame was the driving force behind Hollywoodlaw. She was like a strange flower that bloomed only in the nocturnal glow of an adoring moon. She craved the limelight. She longed to be extraordinary. Look at me! I matter too. The desire to be somebody was all so superficial, yet oddly so important. Without that validation, I would soon discover Hollywoodlawn was lost. Don't don't Okay. She needed she needed it. That feels right. That feels right, and it feels like very Hollywood. It feels like sh yes, she she feels like she loved the attention, positive or negative.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

Yeah, she just needed to be part of the conversation, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

Oof, that's rough. The subject of the conversation, actually. Yes. So in this glamorous, successful moment, both Holly and Jeff were still working their day jobs and waiting for their true success moment when the book would be optioned for a film. But still, working for Gorilla Rose at Waco felt too beneath Holly now that she had a published book. So she quit and got a job doing something more glamorous. Naturally, she became a phone sex operator and apparently loved it. You know what?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:51

Yeah. That's you know what though? Yeah. That actually sounds perfect for her because it's all performance and like the prices are baked in, and you're just you're just a mysterious voice on the other, on the other end of the line. You know what? She could stay in her Terry Quaris bathrobe if she needed to. You know what? I'm taking notes. I am taking notes, Miss Holly. Honestly.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Yep. But but but but but but but but then she got drunk on the job and was fired.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

No, no, we were rooting for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

She was so This was perfect. But it's like also, how do you get drunk and fired from a phone sex operator job? I mean, I I to be fair, I'm imagining her working from home, and at the time I bet it wasn't. I bet, right? Like, don't you think like you had would have had to go somewhere? So it probably still like wasn't great to walk in drunk, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:51

To walk in totally drunk as a skunk. Because I mean, yeah, I'd imagine it was a a call a call center.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Yeah, like for shed cubicle. Yeah. That's hilarious to imagine.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Would that cubicles be decorated? Just with porn.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

What did her box when she got fired? What did her going away box like emptying out her cubicle box? What was that filled with, I wonder? Just a bunch of dildos.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Yep. Um and empty bottles of Chardonnay. Yeah, an empty box for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

I bet she, I bet she drank on the I bet she's like honey.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

It's elegant. This is what I this is what I do. This is what they pay for. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. They love my wine voice.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:49

This is a character. I am getting into character.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:53

You just don't, you just don't want a real performer.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:59

You Just don't know art if it hit you in the face. I know. I hope the exam is dramatic. Oh, this this is this is it. This is it. I will take my Chardonnay and my box of dildos elsewhere where I'm appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

And then she slaps them with the biggest dildo that she has.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

Um anyways. But she kept plugging along with her lackluster cabaret performances until Jeff and Holly got the call. Madonna

Fame Jobs And The Madonna Option

SPEAKER_02 1:06:36

was teaming up with a big yep. Yep. There's a lot of name drops in this episode. Madonna was teaming up with a big producer at Dolly Parton's production company, Sandler Films. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:49

Honestly, though, it sounds like the perfect home.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:53

And the whole or story.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Yeah. And the whole deal was being set up by Columbia Pictures. So this is huge. Like massive.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:01

This is like a real thing. A real thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

Like as good as I mean, in a way, pretty much as good as you could get with this project, I would say. So Madonna had read Holly's book and wanted to produce it. Madonna. Like uh I just can't imagine like what that must have been like to hear that on the phone. Like, it's like I know whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:22

Imagine getting that call.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Yeah. So apparently they wanted it to be like how to marry a millionaire, but with drag queens, even though Holly wasn't a drag queen, but alas, the 90s. And we give you the 90s. Um, Jeff had hoped to write the screenplay, but there was an unnamed famous writer ushered in. When Jeff tried to stand up for himself, his agent Robert yelled at him, You're a with.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:53

A with W I T H. A with. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

He's referring to the wording on the book cover that also made me disregard Jeff Copeland. And me. Yeah. It says written by Holly Woodlawn with Jeff Copeland. And it made him seem irrelevant, or like maybe he was the person who did the foreword in the book, like a life coach offering moral support for an hour a week while she wrote the book or something. Like whatever. It just didn't seem um you don't see that on a on books. You I've never seen that on a book. I don't think. So this was just an odd choice.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:34

You know what I think it might have been? I think it might have been because his whole it was a screenplay first. And you know, like in in the credits, when you do when you do credits, it's it's like the and and the widths, those are like the the big names. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

You know? Yeah. So it's true. Maybe that's where he was at with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:57

Yeah, maybe that's where his head was at because he just didn't change it.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

Yeah, he was in the film film mode. It's strange wordy, and it was his choice, right? So I I do, you know, yeah, and that makes sense. Obviously, it was a mistake. That's a damn shame. There's so much work here.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:15

One word that that doesn't make you credible, and it's one word.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

It is, it's true. Like I said, I wrote it off too. It's like I'm looking at the book right now. Yeah. I wrote it off too. You see her name first. It's like there's not, it's, I don't know. It just doesn't and and is his name smaller too? Is this is a smaller? It's not. It's actually not. Um, hold on a second, I'll show you.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:43

Okay. Hmm. But obviously, Holly Woodlawn is on the cover. It's her face. So it's like that's all you and it's her story. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

Well, yeah, shame. That makes me sad. Yeah, exactly. It's and it was it was a mistake and it bit him. But still, he asked for the opportunity to write the first draft just so he could get into the writer's guild. Like he was being strategic and he was being smart. I think it's like, I put in all this work, just give me that. That will give me a leg up. Lemon, lemon out of lemonades. Lemonade, lemonade out of lemons. But actually, I think that what you said first makes more sense about what actually happened because really yeah, no one was allowing that either. Um, they just weren't allowing him to do that. And Jeff chose to hold out for a better deal because of that, but like regarding the Madonna deal, you know, because he was tied to this project too. Um, so he threw his weight around there because it's literally the only thing he could do. And meanwhile, the quote famous writer attached, who we don't know who this is, um, wrote Holly a postcard that was extremely condescending to Jeff.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:54

It said, Please tell me that he understands the workings of heartless Hollywood. Because I don't want to be any part of breaking his sweet little heart. I'd rather walk away and do something else. Advice, please, love your servant. Anonymous shall remain a mystery because I'm a little bitch. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:22

Um, and to be honest, I'm not even sure how Jeff was aware of this message, but it doesn't seem far-fetched that Holly would have pulled it out in a fit of rage just to anger him. I mean, yeah sounds like her. So yeah. This this whole situation was putting them at odds, and Jeff screamed at her Why can't I work on this movie?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:43

I'm not asking for the world, I just want to help.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Holly yelled back at him a slew of gut punches that would forever strain their relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:52

She said, Because you're not wanted. No one wanted you. Not even Robert wanted you. You're not a writer, you're a typist. You I talked and you typed. That's all you did, Jeffrey. Type, type, type. This is my life story. My story. Now stop being such a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

Wait a kick someone when they are down. That is shitty. That's shitty and rough. Uh yeah, that's a friendship breaker right there. Um crusher. Yeah, exactly. So Jeff let go of the screenplay rights because yeah, like that shit isn't worth it. And Holly waited for things to be finalized with Madonna, a day that would never come. The deal fell through entirely due to behind the scenes producer drama. So even with all their drama, that was not the reason it was the behind-the-scenes producer drama.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

And isn't that the fuck? That is what happens to this day. Like things fall through that literally have that you've been waiting for for months, weeks, months, years. Right. And it has nothing to do with you or your talent or the your work that you've brought to the table. Oh my god, it's utterly infuriating.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

That minds, the mindset you have to have to like remain level-headed through that is I don't understand. I don't know. It's a superpower. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

It's a it's honestly a miracle that anything gets made. And I think people need to understand. It's it's an a complete, you know how many things need to go right, and how many people touch a project. I mean, yeah. It's insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:51

Yeah, there's a journey. Done. There's a journey with all of this. So they had waited a year and came out with nothing. Nothing. But Holly did make the most of her Madonna connection. She appears briefly in the music video for deeper and deeper. Oh, okay. Yeah. Apparently, yeah. So if you watch this, she's in it for like, you know, five seconds. You can spot Hollywood. That's all you need. Yep. Apparently, everyone on set was told not to look at Madonna. Do not make eye contact with Madonna. You she is Medusa. You will turn to stone. Um the only time she spoke to Holly was to tell her that the seam in her stockings was griddle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:43

So Jeff The only time was like, fix that girl.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

Yeah. Excuse me. No. Um Jeff truly felt like he was back to square one. And by taking a chance at asking a studio lot security guard if he knew of any productions that might be hiring, he actually stumbled into a good startup position that propelled his career in television.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:09

Isn't that crazy? Not really. I mean, when I think about how stuff has happened, I it you that makes sense to me. He said, struck up a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

Yeah. I mean, he's he's he was like, he was thinking about he basically was looking out his window. It was like walk the studio was walking distance from his apartment, and he was like, you know, that'd be nice to walk to work. Should I just go ask? Nobody does that. I guess that's why I'll do it. That was pretty much what his thought process was.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:43

I love that. I love that. Yeah. And if you're not, you know, a fucking nuisance or a weirdo, you know what I mean? Like maybe somebody wants to hook you up. You never know. Like everything is a conversation. All you have to do is ask.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:58

Yeah, I'm paraphrasing, but I think what he said was like when he went to the security guard, he's like, hey, I live up the street, I'm a writer. Um, you know, my rent's due, and I need a job. Do you know of any productions that are hiring? That's what he did.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:12

Yeah. And how is that different than like going into a place and dropping off a resume?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

You know, what it's exactly. Yeah. It's like you might be asking the wrong person, but you could easily be asking the wrong person walking in anywhere. So who knows? Right. But Madonna, coming back into the story here for a second, Madonna even optioned a totally different screenplay of his at some point, which I'm sure was a bit of a sting to Holly. I don't know what the screenplay was, he doesn't say. And it I it obviously didn't also get made, but like she still optioned it. So yeah, she stayed in the picture. It's funny. Um, but he worked for a long time in the industry. And for a while, both he and Holly continued to try to get the film made after the deal fell through. I think they both just were too invested and kind of like separately, but like where they had to loop each other in about it. But Holly, Holly felt out of control with the process, and she was actually out of control in her life, of course. Um and like always. Yeah. And she couldn't like she couldn't handle a call with him about it. If he had an idea about something or whatever, she'd be like, Right. Like you know what I mean. Um so it was just like not, nothing was gonna go anywhere. And her alcoholism was it was affecting everything.

When Addiction Catches Up

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

She didn't have a chance at making a move professionally because she could not conduct herself. She could not control her drinking. It was affecting everything, including her health. The only brief moment of triumph that she had as far as achievement goes, is that she was actually able to graduate with a degree from the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising. That was going on in the background during all this. She's like, I'm gonna go back to school and actually did it. Um Wow, fit him. So that's you did it. This is out of character and surprising. Um, she designed herself a few fabulous dresses for her cabaret shows and parties, but it never went any farther than that because Holly was not in a place in her life where she could start at the bottom and build up a career. It's arguable that she was ever in that position, right? Yeah. So she wanted the fast, you know, lane. That was it. But the book Crash and Burn. Exactly. But the book, once something that united them, became the thing that divided Jeff and Holly. He even wrote a screenplay of the book himself and had some real interest in it, but Holly didn't like that he started it with her heroin overdose and berated him on the phone while drunk. So that was But I mean, I I do think that that heroin overdose scene is it's not, it would have been a weird way to start it. It's it to me that he thought it was like the most points he told her he thought it was the most poignant part of the story. And I don't agree. So I don't think that's the most poignant part of her life. That's what I'm saying. I think like, and and also just the the book itself. Like, I think there's so many more the way the book starts is cinematic in and of itself. That could have been it, you know. The scene with Ramon Raul. Love that. Well, you know, that's a very different tone. It's a very but that's the tone I want. Do you know what I mean? That's the tone I want. Yeah. I don't want the high drama. Jeff.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:33

Jeff, Jeff was wanted high drama.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Jeff, Jeff was great at writing a funny book and apparently like just wanted to write a drama as a screenplay. Like, I don't know. There's like a weird divide there. So Jeff still tried to be cordial and close with Holly and didn't completely lose touch over the years, which is fortunate. He says that he loved her, and I think that he really did. He took care of her in ways only a close friend could. And in 2015, she developed liver cancer that spread to her brain. So we're talking about like the full road of addiction. I mean, liver cancer, alcoholism. That's it. So she spent her final days in a lovely facility because there was an internet campaign to raise money for her final days. And she had fans that really showed up for her. And their funds even contributed to Holly's wish that she be interred at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery after her death.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:31

Oh, it's kind of like Mila. Like friends, you know, her friends, her community paid for her friends, community, her fans paid for that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:40

Yeah. That might have been the case with Tomata, too, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:44

Yeah. She was well loved. Yeah, exactly. But Jeff could never believe that cancer was what ultimately took Holly out.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:53

As he says, always thought Holly would live well into her 90s. I imagine she'd succumb to some ridiculous mishap like falling face first into a swimming pool while wearing electric curlers. Or maybe her wig would accidentally catch fire and she'd explode. Then rise from the ashes like a glittering phoenix, spectacular and awe-inspiring, leaving everyone flabbergasted and cheering for more. Yeah, exactly. Like fucking cancer. Man, cancer. Not exciting enough. Yeah. Not exciting enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:40

Not high drama enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:42

I I agree with Jeff. Like, truly, I wanted something ridiculous. I mean, I was expecting. I don't know what I was expecting. I was expecting something alcohol related. So, I mean, I it is in that bottle.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:56

It is, but it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:57

Yeah. So but truly, after sneaking. You believe something so so mundane.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:05

I know. It's it it's so shitty. I love the idea of her wearing electric curlers and falling into a pool when she's like 90. That's hilarious. That's like I yeah, like that would be great. Um, but after the way to go. Yeah. But after spending five episodes talking about her very messy life, I feel the same way, Jeff. I truly do. When when I started writing this series and researching it, um, I described Holly, I mean, in our first episode, I described Holly as transcendent, mostly because I'm an idiot who likes alliteration too much. I'm an alliteration whore. And I wanted to say transcendent trans woman. I'm sorry. I apologize.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:51

Don't apologize for alliteration for wordplay. Don't you, don't you ever, not once, apologize for wordplay, Courtney. Don't you dare.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

I don't think it's exactly the right word to describe her, though. Um, I think Holly was scrappy, resilient to a degree, and fearless. I think she was really brave in so many ways. I think she was witty and smart and sassy and fabulous. And it makes me really sad to know that addictions and the lore of alcohol and drugs ruined her and her dreams and her ambition. It's very sad to me. But I think that she was lucky in a lot of ways. She had friends at the end and she made waves. Her story is immortalized in two books, a Lou Reed song, and in large part the Paul Morrissey film trash, since she was pretty much playing herself. So, so now

Final Altar Offering And Goodbyes

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

is the time, which we haven't been remembering to do in other episodes, that we suggest an offering for Holly and also leave your final uh impression of Holly. So leave it, leave it on the altar, Marissa, all of it. This is this is our segment, the altar.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:13

Oh my gosh, we should though. Gosh, I'm gonna miss you, girl. Honestly, like I it was a hell of a ride, and just to like she had such a clear thank you to Jeff because she has such a clear voice, even when she was like wasn't clear in what she wanted to do, her voice was always very clear to me. Um, which I love. I'm so sad that she you know fell to the ways of addiction that takes so many good people, great artists away from us too early. But that's always so sad. But like what a badass, like truly so hilarious and fun and funny, and I I I agree with all your descriptors of her. I think what should we leave her? Maybe like, you know those ridiculous pearls that she wore during her interview? I feel like we could we could like do a string of ridiculous costume jewelry pearls across her because she's in a wall, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's in like the mausoleum wall. She's in the mausoleum. So I feel like a like like draping ridiculous costume jewelry with like a can of beer.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:44

Yes, and maybe like putting like refreshing her eyeliner on the headshot that's on there. You know what I mean? Yeah, taking a liquid eyeliner and just being like, let me just touch you up the way she did for candy with the blush, you know. Yeah. I think that'd be cute.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:00

A little, a little I think that would be cute too. Yeah.

unknown 1:26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:05

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:06

I don't want to like, you know, I wouldn't want to like desecrate, deface. But no, but eyeliner watches off.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:13

It's not sharpie. Yeah. So that's right. Um, but yeah, I uh I think I think that's a great idea. I think we should definitely do that. Yeah. We should just we should just freshen her up. Yeah, just a little touch-up. Just a little touch-up. I think she'd appreciate it. So I think so too. But no, this is a this is a wild ride. I think it's so much fun. I hope that everyone listening had fun too with it. And it did require, I mean, this is like two fat books of uh research that are just like everything in them is interesting, which is always like, I'm like, oh, that's so good. But also like, no, now they're gonna go on and on forever. But you know, I hope you liked it. You're all welcome. Um, and uh yeah, and we'll talk about welcome.

unknown 1:27:00

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:01

We'll talk about somebody else next time. And I am kind of grateful to be able to move on. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:08

I'm sad, I'm sad to to to leave her behind, but also excited to see who's next.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:13

Yeah, yeah, because it's it's tiring to like spend this long in this chaotic life. You know what I mean? It's a deep dive into like the most chaotic life. So I feel like try to find someone more children. You deserve a rest. You do need a rest.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:31

Let's find someone deserve a rest.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:33

Boring.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:33

Um our audience will love it. They'll love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:38

No, never, but we'll, yeah, it'll be different. So thank you all. Thanks for sticking with us. Leave us your comments, your thoughts, your uh all of it. Um, tell us what you would leave for Holly. And um, and we'll see you next time. All right. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:55

Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's say bye together.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:59

Three. Two, one. Bye! God damn it. Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:06

Thank you so much for listening. Your support and enthusiasm for the show are the reason we keep doing it. So thanks for the kind words. They really mean the world. If you liked the show or have ideas for episodes we could or should do, please drop us a comment in Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube. And if you haven't yet, please follow the show and tell every Cinephile and Tafophile, fun fact that's a person who loves graveyards, about your new favorite niche podcast. And if you want to see transcripts, photos, and sources for our episodes, check out our Substack Dead and Kind of Famous. Dead and Kind of Famous is written, produced, and edited by Courtney Blomquist. It is hosted by Marissa Rivera and Courtney Blomquist. And special thanks to Jesse Russell, my husband, for allowing me to yammer on about the episodes before I can spill it all to Marissa. He tends to have some good insights and ideas, so thanks. Until next time, you might not be famous, but you've got a story to tell and you're not dead yet.