#32 - Cool, I’m Dead—and Other Things You Don’t Expect to Hear

A single question opens a door most of us avoid: what do you think happens when we die? For this caller, the answer comes not from theory but from experience. During a medical crisis, she finds herself floating above her body, greeted by family who had already died, and facing an ornate threshold she’s told not to cross.

It’s a story that’s strange and tender, playful and grounded. Not a doctrine, but a report from the edge. Told by someone who has worked in hospice, studied death across cultures, and still didn’t expect the peace, or the humor, she found there.

We follow her journey from childhood Mormon teachings to teenage nihilism, through her years in hospice care and anthropology studies, and finally into the operating room where sepsis and surgeries bend time. She describes the gallery-like theater, the clarity of hearing loved ones without words, and the message she was sent back with: tell people it’s okay to die.

Along the way, we talk about why rituals matter in healthcare, how visibility reduces trauma, and how stories can soften fear. If you’ve ever carried questions about what comes next, or felt the weight of “nothingness” and wished for a crack of light, this conversation offers a new way of looking at it.

Book Recommendation: The Red Tent by Anita Diamant

Hey Cool, I'm Dead.

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

The Death Deck: Talk About the Future
A Lively Party Game to Share Stories and Beliefs

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Chapters

• 0:00 The Question That Starts It All
• 0:37 Sponsor: The Death Deck & Dementia Deck
• 1:12 Year Two, Subscribers, and Contemplations
• 1:55 Introducing the Caller and Context
• 3:50 Place, Books, and Early Beliefs
• 7:33 From Nihilism to Hospice Clues
• 9:59 Studying Death Across Cultures
• 12:35 The Surgery That Changed Everything
• 18:34 Dying, Floating, and Family Appearing
• 20:31 The Theater, The Door, and Time Dilation
• 22:07 Skepticism, Meaning, and Telling the Story
• 30:33 Sent Back With a Message
• 34:18 Popcorn as a Cosmic Punchline
• 39:33 Closing Reflections and Ways to Engage
• 40:55 Bonus: Jewish Ideas on Afterlife & Burial

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:04

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes a completely unexpected direction. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks. A podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about it. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is brought to you by The Death Deck. Want to talk to your family members about the future but don't know how to start? The Death Deck is a lively game that uses multiple choice questions and a dose of humor to help start conversations about death, dying, and illness. Learn new and interesting things about your friends and family members while becoming prepared for the future. And new this fall, the Death Deck introduces the Dementia Deck. A planning tool to talk about the type of care and treatment you'd want if you're living with dementia. All Death Deck products are available at thedeathdeck.com. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. Here we are, kicking off the second year of the podcast, and I couldn't be more excited. I know I said it a lot last week, but to everyone who's been here since early days, thank you. And to those who are just joining, I'm so glad that you found your way here. This past weekend I released the first Saturday contemplation, and I'll be sharing another one this coming weekend exclusively for when we die talk about subscribers. To everyone who's already signed up, thank you for helping support this project and making it possible for me to keep creating these conversations. It's still early days of the contemplations, but they already feel really meaningful to me. They take me back to when I was just starting the journey and spending a lot of time on my own reflecting. My hope is that they will offer something valuable for you too. We have a fascinating call to kick off the year. A lot of our conversation circles back to what she saw and felt during those moments. From floating over a body in the operating room to meeting family who had already died, to realizing with absolute certainty that there is something on the other side. She doesn't claim to know everything about what happens when we die, but she does speak with conviction about a few things. That family will be there, that there is more than nothingness waiting. And as she discovered in the most surprising way that there's even popcorn. It's a story told with honesty, depth, and humor, and I think you'll find it unforgettable. I hope you enjoy. Oh good. That's gonna be a great start to the call. Is uh it do you is it working now?

SPEAKER_05: 2:49

Yeah, it's working now. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04: 2:50

Awesome. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is usually the issues are normally on my side. So it's actually kind of nice being on the other side of it this time and not having to like stress out about oh shoot, what are you?

SPEAKER_05: 3:01

That's what I'm about.

SPEAKER_04: 3:02

Awesome. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:03

Providing experiences.

SPEAKER_04: 3:05

Perfect, perfect. Well, yeah, I'm so glad. And I do, I guess off the top, you're also kind of a unique situation for the podcast because I do know you. So like a person that I know, however, you're different in the sense that I basically know you through, and I guess I'll give a little plug to Lamort. I was doing the School of Sacred Death with Lauren Carroll, amazing class. And you came in towards the end of the class and talked. So I I know you for about 30 minutes, and then we've had little exchanges here or there since then. I think that was probably two or three weeks ago. So I know a little bit about you. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's when we start talking about death.

SPEAKER_05: 3:52

I mean, I don't want to-like, really Exactly.

SPEAKER_04: 3:55

Yeah, and I don't want to I don't want to spoil all your secrets or anything because I don't necessarily know where we're gonna go with this conversation, but I guess I just wanted to say that up front for the listeners to know that there is some familiarity here. I knew this would be a really interesting conversation and I wanted you on the podcast, and and you were very willing. So so thank you for doing that. Um, anytime. I mean, I guess that kind of leads into the first like little question. Why were you even interested in doing this call, this podcast talking about death?

SPEAKER_05: 4:26

I'll be honest, I really appreciated that you are a local, like we live almost in the same town. Of course, stalked your Instagram before I answered, and I really appreciated your point of view. And another thing is honestly, there's not enough bros in deathcare. Not that you're actually a bro, but like there's not enough men in deathcare. Yeah. Full stop. So I really want to be supportive of that where I can because it's not there. I mean, there's a lot of they them. Like we we're we are we are there. Yeah. But it's it's hard when people really need that kind of like male support or like that, like it's a different vibe. It and some people are sticky and some people, yeah, and some people want that for sure. So I I love Lauren and I were talking about it, and I'm so excited that she had like three guys in the class. So when I was that's so great.

SPEAKER_04: 5:12

I'm glad that you found something in this project because it is very much it is very much a personal project. You know, it's my discovery and and looking into these things and trying to overcome my fears. And I'm so glad that it's resonating with other people in so many different ways that I didn't expect when I started this. And just glad that you're willing to jump on the call. So before we kind of dig further into the death stuff, we have lots to talk about. You kind of alluded to it briefly, but can you maybe just give us like a rough idea of where you're calling from? And then the other question I'd like to ask is what is your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_05: 5:48

So I am in a small town just across the river from Portland. It's on the ancestral lands of the Chinook people who uh need to be recognized by the government. Just want to plug that right now.

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

Perfect.

SPEAKER_05: 5:59

There's a lot of other tribes in the area, but those are the ones that uh have my heart and have had my heart since I was very, very young. And what was the second question?

SPEAKER_04: 6:08

Your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_05: 6:09

So the book that I've read the most and I literally I go back to all the time, it's a book called The Red Tent by Anita Diamond. It's basically super biblical, which is not my jam, um, if you know me. But it's about it's about Leah and her like chronicles through that time, and it's just it's it's obviously, you know, historical fiction, but yeah, I love it and I want to believe that it's true, and it talks about women getting together and collectively like fucking up the patriarchy. And the red pet is kind, you know, about having periods and stuff. It I had such a hard time with periods as a kid. Now we're talking about periods.

SPEAKER_04: 6:50

You never knew that. I never knew this is where this is podcast is gonna go.

SPEAKER_05: 6:53

No, I had no fucking idea. So I I always had problems with that as a kid growing up. Thankfully, I yeeted my uterus, so I don't have that anymore. But it uh it the book really made me feel better about being like a person that had a period.

SPEAKER_04: 7:07

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05: 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 7:09

I feel like that I feel like that qualifies as a favorite book. I think that's oh totally. Or just in general, just like this is a book that I go back to and has meaning. Like I think No, I would totally I think everybody needs books like that. That's awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for that. So I guess now we can kind of dive into the heart of the the conversation with the big question of what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_05: 7:32

So I guess I should preface this with I've already died. So I kind of like spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. I kind of I kind of have the answer we're gonna bury the lead, but like it I'm gonna go back a little bit further and say that when I was a kid, I was raised Mormon.

SPEAKER_01: 7:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 7:50

And so I thought that like you would, you know, you got your own little planet and you were with your family and like you're sealed forever, and that's kind of it. Like that was the end. I don't really remember a lot of when I was a kid because obviously that whole religion is trauma, but um the when I was a teenager, I thought you just kind of exited this world and that was it. Like you it was kind of like the death cab for cutie, I'll fall you into the dark. That was it.

SPEAKER_04: 8:17

What a good thing.

SPEAKER_05: 8:17

Like there was no tunnel of light. Oh you got it. It's me every fucking time. But yeah, that was that was a really good synopsis of what how I felt about it. That it you just kind of disappeared and people forgot you, and then the last person to remember you was when you were actually forgotten. That was pretty uh nihilistic of me, obviously.

SPEAKER_04: 8:35

And that's I would say not far from my beliefs. And I at least when I started this is very nothingness.

SPEAKER_05: 8:43

So yeah, um it's a lot. A lot of people think that, and honestly, I think that's fair because that's kind of how at least in our country, uh yeah, it's the culture. In our culture, we kind of yeah, the culture of just like ignore and continue on your with your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 8:58

Um and distance from spirituality.

SPEAKER_05: 9:01

Yeah, of course, yeah, because that is too woo-woo. Although, even though religion is basically the same different side of the same coin of just like a duality, yeah. When I was in my early 20s, I started I was a CNA for hospice and memory care.

SPEAKER_01: 9:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 9:16

And that's kind of when my paradigm shifted. I think there's something else. Like there has to be, because these people are talking to people who aren't there. And I know it's like, you know, with a memory disease, and like people hallucinate, and that's different. But like they're having full-blown conversations with people, and I'm like standing there like pretending like I can hear both sides because I don't want anyone to get upset. And you know, the stories they would tell me when they were lucid enough of like, oh man, when I was in World War II and we were getting bombed down, I swear I just like left my body and went somewhere else, and when I came back, we were safely on the beach. And then they would go back to being, you know, dementia land. And so those are the things that really kind of like shook me out of my nihilistic, like, there's nothing, we're dead and gone. But then I started studying death and dying uh for my undergrad. I did my bachelor's degree at WSU Vancouver, and it's an anthropology with a focus on cultural death and dying and like medical uh anthropology. So yeah, thank you. It was it was so fun, man. I wish I could do it again, honestly. So that's when everything kind of shifted because you're opening your lens and like everything, or I was yeah, different ways of people grieving and dying. And one of the things that I kind of uh zeroed in on was the Ebola epidemic pandemic situation in Africa. Two of my professors were actually the first anthropologists hired at all by the World Health Organization so they could go over there and try and figure out what was happening on a cultural level, not just like a medicine level.

SPEAKER_04: 10:48

That's wild.

SPEAKER_05: 10:49

Oh, it's so wild. There's a book about it. It's like actually that's probably one of my favorite books, but I can't remember the whole title of it because it's an academic book. And it just kind of opened my eyes to like if we just sit and talk to people, you'll probably figure out what the problem is, you know, and like language also is always a barrier, but like there's translators. You can't not say, Oh, we don't speak the same language. That's not a thing we can say at this day and age.

SPEAKER_04: 11:11

Yeah, totally. They can figure it out.

SPEAKER_05: 11:12

They went in there and they yeah, they can. They went in there and they figured out that like they just like culturally and location-wise, just didn't trust these white people. Imagine that, coming in and like they wouldn't see their people, their dead people, and then they would just mass bury them. And so they never saw their dead people, they never got to do their last rites or rituals, and so those people were like lost to them in time and space. And that's it. The World Health Organization and you know, Doctors Without Borders, they just that's how they had to do because of like biohazard protocol. So I totally understand. I'm not trying to like diss on them because they did their job. Yeah, they stopped, they stopped the spread, they were doing everything that they needed to, and they saved a lot of people. However, from a cultural standpoint, there's so much trauma, and it will be like that for hundreds of years. Yeah. I mean, seriously. So, what they found out is one of the things that they could do is they could put clear plastic around the hospital so that their people could actually look in and see that their family members are there.

SPEAKER_02: 12:08

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05: 12:09

In the in their like makeshift hospital. Yeah, so then they can at least because they yes, not disconnected, not just like spirited away, and then they just never see them again. And even if they died, it turned out that they still liked being able to see their person that the trauma levels went down.

SPEAKER_03: 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 12:25

Like dramatically.

SPEAKER_02: 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 12:26

Right after they let them see them. So that's the kind of stuff I'm interested in. I really, yeah, it it I that changed my life. So that was such a great basis for what I do now. So in 2018, I had a like a normal, well, not really normal, this is gonna happen every day. Oh, it probably does at this point, a liver resection. I had some tumors in there. There's some of them that are still there, and they were attached to my diaphragm. So I was having like a hard time breathing. And I was supposed to stay at the hospital for a week because like after you get part of your like a third of your liver removed, you probably need to just hang out for a bit. And I had honestly not really a lot of worries about it because up until that point, I had had probably like 13 surgeries over my life for different things.

SPEAKER_01: 13:06

Whoa, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 13:07

So it's not that what yeah, well, right now I'm the same age as surgeries I've had, so that's kind of fun.

SPEAKER_04: 13:13

Maybe you can cut back in the in the next decade, fingers.

SPEAKER_05: 13:16

I'm hoping that well, I just had I just had my shoulder repaired, so that just added to the list. But that's just you know, say like me. So like it wasn't my first roadie with surgery. Like, I wasn't really uncomfortable with the thought of like falling asleep and not really waking up because I knew it just that that that wasn't my case. Like, I just never didn't wake up. I didn't have the normal like surgery scaries that some people have, which are super valid, but it totally should have I should have. So like three or four days go by. So the surgery was on October 24th, which is a pretty important detail considering, you know, on the spiritual side, the the veil is thinning, you know, of like life and death and worlds colliding. And so I like to remind people of that because I feel like that's kind of interesting, at least the timing. About three or four days later, I was doing better right after the surgery. Like I I felt better and I was feeling like better in my tummy. And then I started declining. And even though my mom, who is an RN of 35 years and the nurses who were in the MSPCU, so like just a step down from ICU, were advocating that something was very wrong with me. The hospitalist, God bless him, I hope he has the life he deserves. He said, You're fat and you're anxious, that's why you're not feeling good. And then everybody's like, Okay, great, cool, thank you. And um great dieting. So, you know, and then yeah, four days later, I got up to go to the bathroom, passed out on the ground, woke up in an ST scan. It turned out I was dying of necrotizing fasciitis, which is uh fleshing bacteria for everybody in the audience, and uh severe sepsis with organ dysfunction, organ failure, basically. So that's so yeah, so obviously not doing very well. I had a lot of surgery. So during the I was stuck in the hospital for five weeks, and I was trapped basically in a vacuum, like an industrial-sized person vacuum that they literally had to fly parts out of from like different states because they ran out because I was using it too much. Oh, because I needed it. They literally had life light fly stuff in for me.

SPEAKER_02: 15:13

It's wild.

SPEAKER_05: 15:14

Oh, I it's it'd say like telling it now. At the time I was like, this is happening, but now I'm like, what the hell did that actually happen? Yeah, I was attached to this like huge vacuum for like eight weeks. So because they sent me home at like five weeks, it was close to Christmas at that point, and they're like, She needs to be home. Like she's struggling. I was getting depressed and being stuck in a building in a hospital for five weeks. We'll do that. I didn't go outside for three whole weeks, and I have a picture of the first time I went outside, and my face is just so happy, even though I'm like ripped to pieces. So there's a period of time when of like 10 days between October 28th or 29th, I had eight surgeries in a row. Like eight full knock you out, intubate you surgeries. And so that's not good for anybody, but it's definitely not good for somebody who's just like actively dying of insane things.

SPEAKER_01: 16:02

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05: 16:03

So they uh it's during that M Day period that I actually died and had an a near-death experience, which is funny to me because like a lot of people who have near-death experiences aren't immersed in the death industry or culture or like anything. Yeah. And I was, so I think I had a very chill NDE compared to other people, but I just feel like I understood the assignment right off the bat.

SPEAKER_04: 16:27

Like I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_05: 16:28

Like I'm here to learn.

SPEAKER_04: 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:30

Yeah, I got this, guys.

SPEAKER_04: 16:31

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05: 16:32

Do you want me to go for it?

SPEAKER_04: 16:34

You don't necessarily have to go through every single detail, but I think at least I think at least giving an idea around your experience.

SPEAKER_05: 16:42

Okay, so I it was during one of the surgeries that this happened, and I remember I'm surprised that I remember this like whole event because I don't remember a thing. Like there's two weeks of of missed time that I have from this event, at least two weeks, where I actually don't remember a thing.

SPEAKER_03: 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:59

I have pictures on my phone, and I have pictures that my parents took and even texts that I sent out, but I don't remember anything. They took me out of my room and they're wheeling me out to surgery. And every single time my parents would walk me down to the OR doors, basically, like the doors outside the OR doors, and they would, you know, say I guess it was kind of goodbye at that point because it was so touch and go. I hate saying that, man. I think that's the first time I've said it like that. Wow, I'm having feelings.

SPEAKER_04: 17:27

That's what we do here.

SPEAKER_05: 17:28

So I know, right? Damn, okay. Need more tissues. So, you know, we're saying our our last goodbyes, basically, and like they made it like very bright and cheerful, but for them it was really like, I don't know if it's a thing. But for me, it was like, Hi, mom and dad, I love you. So I go back, and at this point, it's they're not doing the whole like, hey, welcome to surgery. Here's our safety stop, countdown from a hundred, yeah, and like goodnight, forehead kiss. They're like, get in there. And so you're you're having surgery right now. And so they they just like knock. I mean, they push the propofol, and I'm out. And then I realize I'm kind of awake and I'm like, oh shit. My one of my biggest fears is waking up during surgery, yeah, which is hilarious because I've probably actually done it, and you just never remember because you have like bursette on board. Oh yeah, totally propofol, and that's not and so you're not gonna remember what yeah, totally, totally. Um, which is which is good. You don't want to be like, oh dude, you're a little bit more. Yeah, that's a that's a valid out.

SPEAKER_04: 18:25

That's a valid fear to to wake up and realize what's happening.

SPEAKER_05: 18:28

That's that's not something I would yeah, I don't have a lot of fears, but that's one.

SPEAKER_04: 18:32

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05: 18:33

So I realize I'm kind of awake and then I look around and I'm like, I'm standing, which I hadn't done in days.

SPEAKER_02: 18:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 18:40

This is when I'm like, I'm not standing. Yeah, it's so weird. I'm like, okay, this is what number one, what's up? And then I'm like, I'm not really standing, I'm just kind of floating. And then I'm like, that's even weirder. And then I look down at this the operating room table, and there's this like poor, like basically half-dead corpse on the table getting like violently intubated, and I'm like, that sucks, man. That's such a bad day for everybody because nobody as a medical professional, you don't want to do that, and as a patient, you don't want that to happen to you. And that's kind of when the pieces started falling together, and I realized, oh, that's me, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 19:16

And uh to quote the great Bart Simpson, cool, I'm dead. That's literally that is exactly what popped in my head. I think Bart Simpsons. So yeah, I my brain went, cool, I'm dead. And I was like, I don't know if that's cool or not, but I was just kind of watching them. They're you know, reopening me, unpacking me, and then that's when I kind of decided that it was a little too much to watch. Nobody wants to watch their insights be unpacked.

SPEAKER_04: 19:40

Um right back to the last thing that we were talking about is you know, this is uh a next level of that fear, right? Of you didn't necessarily wake up you were in surgery, but you kind of did and thought about it until then.

SPEAKER_05: 19:54

How dare you?

SPEAKER_04: 19:56

Sorry.

SPEAKER_05: 19:57

You're making me no, you're totally fine, but no, that was so sorry.

SPEAKER_04: 20:00

That's what I do here. I connect the dots.

SPEAKER_05: 20:02

Please, please connect the dots. So, yeah, so I I'm looking around and I realize that I'm staring at my predeceased grandmother, aunt, and cousin. They don't look like they did when they were dead, but they look healthy and happy. And they're not talking to me with their mouths, they're talking to me with their heads. And they sound just like themselves too.

SPEAKER_02: 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 20:24

They're talking to me and they're like, hey, you don't, you do not have to look at this at all, like just let's let's go somewhere else. And so they kind of like put this little cloud cover down and then like we kind of like got I say swooped up, and then we were in like a different place. I mean, it was still kind of the same place because I knew that I was just having surgery like right down below the cloud.

SPEAKER_03: 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 20:45

That's what I thought. And then I'm looking around me, and that's when I realized that we are in like an operating room theater, like where people are sitting around watching me have surgery.

SPEAKER_03: 20:53

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05: 20:54

Like in old, old uh TV shows, like old British shut shows. Uh yeah, that's how they watch people have surgery, I guess. I don't know. So I'm like, I was so confused, so excited to see them, and I am just ecstatic. There is how can I like it every single time I tell this is so hard for me to put into words because it still feels material. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 21:16

I mean, I th it was an experience, right? And it's like putting that into words is so hard.

SPEAKER_05: 21:21

Yeah, and then I remember certain things certain times and then other things different times, but they all match up once if you like I never want like I guess I should have prefaced this. I'm never trying to convince people that yeah, this is something that's gonna happen to them.

SPEAKER_02: 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 21:34

And I am getting nothing back from this except for the potential of getting like super screwed over because people are mean on the internet.

SPEAKER_04: 21:41

Yeah. Well and the good thing is with the anonymity, you're kind of blocked from that to some extent. Although, you know, like you can choose to share this after if you want or not. So the good news is if you don't want to share it and somebody hates it, I'll get the hate, you know, so you you you don't even have to worry about it, which is great.

SPEAKER_05: 21:59

But it's the best thing you've ever done before.

SPEAKER_04: 22:02

I think that is one of the things. I don't want to cut off your story because we're like in the in the the heart of it and it's so good. But I do think that was one of the reasons why I was so excited to chat with you because uh, you know, you were talking in our class, and one of the things that you talked about, and I want to be completely honest, you know, you were talking about I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I have definitely been skeptical of MD ETH, like being completely honest. Like, and I have done before I've done, you know, reading like one of my early guests, even before I was doing the anonymous stuff, you recommended this book called After. I'll once again link that in the show notes. It was really good and it was a doctor neuro whatever it was, and it kind of goes down the rabbit hole of like, you know, well, let me disprove NDES. You know, like he had an experiment with one of his with one of his patrons who was like, oh yeah, you know, like I saw you talking, I can't remember if it was her mom or her like their friend, and I saw that you had like the card on your tie, and it was like, oh, when I was in the room, like I had my jacket buttoned up. There's no way that I could be able to stop it. If it's crazy, I like disproved it. You know, like I feel like I'm crazy, I need to disprove this. And so you kind of went through all these steps. And so get it back to me because you know, you guys can go read the book. But I think I've always been skeptical because I do think there's an aspect, and that's with everything or in this kind of realm of like spirituality, death, religion. There are people who can be bad players, and I'm not saying you're a bad player. That's why I would not have you on the podcast if I thought you were making stuff up and like manipulated. Yeah, exactly. But I feel like there are people that, or maybe I don't want to even start it that way, but like there is an output. There are people like that. And it's there are, you're right. And I think the other part of it for me is I've come from such a, you know, I didn't grow up religious. I grew up in suburbia, which I think accounts for some of this of like lucky. That's the thing, is like I think I'm definitely lucky in ways, but I've said on here before I don't have an idea of what spirituality means. And I'm discovering that now for myself. I think probably that journey started a couple years ago. So it took me 35, 36, 37 years to like get to a place where, oh, you know, maybe there's something else. And so I feel like I always have this kind of like, well, how do you prove it? How do you prove this experience? And it's like, yeah, but I don't prove everything. So I do love that's why I wanted to have you on here because I think it's such an amazing story. I think it's beautiful, and we'll we'll get back to it. But also from my perspective, it's it's nice because I have been skeptical and like hearing your story, I was like, oh, that's really cool reading this book. I'm like, oh my gosh, maybe I can believe in something and not nothing. That's exciting. That makes me less afraid of death. So that's my huge caveat.

SPEAKER_05: 24:45

I kind of love that, and that's why I tell this. Like, I really don't have anything to gain at the at the I didn't talk about it for almost two years. Yeah, because I was terrified of what people would think about it. But the mate, yeah, it does like it cost a lot of PTSD for me, and I had to work on that for the last eight years. But yeah, and so like if I can help one person feel better about anything by telling the story, yeah, that's fine. And I've already it's already happened.

SPEAKER_02: 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 25:12

So I couldn't stop. Like, but it it keeps happening and it keeps making people feel better. But that's why they sent well, spoiler everybody, that's why they sent me back with to talk about it. And and I think I started getting a lot more mentally ill because I wasn't, and they were like, bro, you gotta talk about it. And I'm like, No.

SPEAKER_04: 25:29

You had a you had a mission and you're not doing it.

SPEAKER_05: 25:32

Yeah, and the more I talk about it, the more the better I feel. Yeah. So back to the dying.

SPEAKER_04: 25:36

I was gonna say, I took us way off on that, so yeah, let's get back to you dying.

SPEAKER_05: 25:40

I love that. So actually, to give you perspective on like what you were talking about about the stain on the tie, I actually had, and I don't know if I told this in the of the classroom, but Lauren Lauren has heard it a couple times. I have a distinct memory of going around the hospital during part of this, and I don't know when or why, really, because I was having such a great time with them. Maybe they were just showing me around. And my dad and my mom are sitting in my room, and they were sitting in a really specific place in the room. There was like a really comfy chair, but then there was like this really hard, not hard, but like bed bench thing in the corner by the window. They're they're probably just trying to get some vitamin D, and they're both crying, and like my mom is a strong Puerto Rican, like she does not cry a lot, and my dad's a bro. I mean, he I've I've seen him cry probably more than my mom, which I don't know what that means, but yeah, he was they were both crying and they were just like hugging, and they were just a really intimate moment that I I don't know, but I remember it, and they were like, What? Yeah, yeah, totally. That that was my little piece that I kind of forget about every once in a while because it's not part of the main like story, but yeah, that's one bit, and so I uh so it's basically like I was one with everything and also completely nothing, which is so freeing and like beautiful and transcendent and ethereal, and just like all the fucking words, nothing hurt anymore, which was great because although I say I was like great on life on Delauded, it I was feeling so much pain. Yeah, like you had been through a lot of surgeries, it just made me feel better about yeah, it made me feel better about being wide open. Yeah, nothing mattered, but also everything mattered, but not in a way that like when you're panicking about everything happening in the world that's on fire right now. Yeah. Um it was just like, yeah, this is happening, and also I don't know, it was just so wild. I've never had that feeling before, and I've had it very specific places, types of places since then that I'm totally free totally down to discuss if you want to after. So there was like the colors, it was like cloudy kind of, and then of course there's like the people sitting around us. Some of them I recognized, some of them I didn't, and I'm sure there's just like a bunch of like ancestors, people, family, friends, and just maybe just randos. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 27:49

Yeah, someone who just wanted to like check out the like the 3 p.m. surgery. It's like, oh hey, I heard this is showing over here.

SPEAKER_05: 27:55

Is this theater? Yeah, she got her gut taking out. Let's look at this. Um, and during this whole time that like I'm processing this, they're like giving me like words of affirmation, they're giving me like I don't want to call it like downloads, but it really felt like they were giving me like knowledge of that. I don't necessarily remember now, like as a conscious meat sacks or cheese bag. Yeah, and it made sense, like everything made sense. And sometimes those little pieces will pop up and I'll know something that somebody's like, How do you know that? And I'm like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 28:22

I don't know, but I just do.

SPEAKER_05: 28:23

I can't tell you. Um so that's when I realized on the left side of the room is this huge door, like this giant, it's like JR token S door, and it's beautiful, it has like vines on it, and it probably says like speak friends enter or some shit, and it's beautiful. And I'm like very interested in the door.

SPEAKER_02: 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 28:41

And my family were very sarcastic and yeah, right, right. Um my family is very sarcastic and weird, and we talk in quotes from movies, and so I'm like, hey, what's up with this door? And my grandma looks at me, she's like, Don't go into the light, Carolyn, and that's I'm like, okay. She's like, You can't go through the door. And I noticed that people are going in and out of this door, but I can't. So that's kind of my what I interpreted as the final like line of peopleness, you know. Like I could go back if I was at this stage, but if I went through that door, there was no coming back. Yeah. Um, I don't know that for sure. That's not a definitive state that I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04: 29:14

I think that's a fair, fair assumption, though. I would I would come to the same conclusion, I would think.

SPEAKER_05: 29:18

Yeah, if your grandma was like, don't fucking look at the door, that's pretty much like that's a hard, that's a hard no. So I focused on my family, and I should mention that I was quote unquote unconscious slash not responsive for three minutes, but time that I felt like I was there was three months. So the time dilation is insane.

SPEAKER_02: 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 29:39

And I'm sure it could go either way or any way, but that's just how it worked out for me. And actually, I didn't remember that piece of the story until I did a death meditation, and I actually went back to that place. I had no idea that would happen, and it lasted like a couple minutes. But when she brought us back out of the meditation, I thought it had gone on for like an hour and a half.

SPEAKER_04: 29:58

Wow, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05: 30:00

It was wild.

SPEAKER_04: 30:01

Meditation can do some weird stuff like that too, for sure.

SPEAKER_05: 30:04

Meditation is so crazy. Yeah. So I'm so that was the coolest thing. And that was when I first realized that I could potentially like go back and visit or like at least have the same feeling.

SPEAKER_02: 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 30:12

Because it was the same feeling. Yeah. Um, I think that my favorite part is the perfect temperature. Like, I could not comprehend where my favorite person ended or began. I love that, like in like real life. So we are wrapping up my NDE, I guess. Um, there's so much more detail, but we're wrapping up uh like a team chat, and they're saying, like, okay, so now's the sucky part, like you have to go back. And of course, I'm like, absolutely not. Do I have a choice? And they're like, absolutely not, you do not. I've read stories about not first, but I've read these uh accounts of people who did have a choice, which so jealous. I'm glad I didn't now, obviously.

SPEAKER_04: 30:52

Like, yeah, but in the moment.

SPEAKER_05: 30:53

To be fair, in the moment, and also with the climate of the world right now, kind of, but I think uh obviously uh it the story matters, so it I'm glad that I I was forced to re-enter my cheese bag.

SPEAKER_04: 31:04

Yeah. I mean that that's what you call it.

SPEAKER_05: 31:08

I literally just ate some cheese right before this call, too. Because I was like, oh man, what if I get hungry? So they're like, Yeah, you gotta go back. You need to talk about this story. And so I would put uh another reminder for the listeners that this is 2018. And I said, You know, I'm hurting, like this sucks. I hate my life right now. I and I had just gotten married to like my best friend, but I was so done.

SPEAKER_02: 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 31:30

And they're like, You have to tell people that it is okay to die. And I'm like, How do I do that? Like, what what do you mean? What do you want? Like, how does that even work? And they just like there is gonna be something in the next couple of years that is gonna kill a lot of people, and a lot of people are gonna be harmed.

SPEAKER_02: 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 31:46

And I'm like, Cool, thanks. I don't know what that is, but great. And you know, I didn't personally put those two together until well into the pandemic. Yeah. Um, if I'm being super honest.

SPEAKER_03: 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 31:57

I didn't even connect with Lauren and the the deaf wives from my deaf midwife class until the fall of 2021. Okay, because I was struggling with mental health issues. So it took a while for me to go, oh my god, that's what they meant. This is this is it's low.

SPEAKER_04: 32:11

I mean, I think it's also there also could have been something else that happened that was even bigger. You don't really know, right? You know, like it's it's one of those things has to happen in in some sort of hindsight.

SPEAKER_05: 32:22

Right, right. And I'm really I'm sad. Like, and it's interesting because I don't think you cry when you're over there, but like it feels like you're releasing like the energy of crying. And they're like, you know, it's okay, like you can we'll be with you. We're always with you. We're always not like in the creepy Santa way, but like we're there when you need us.

SPEAKER_02: 32:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 32:40

That's when my grandma aunt, see, this is where it gets confused for me because they're all three of them are just like jokey trickster people who will literally turn a tragedy into something funny just to make you feel better. I think it is like cousin turned to my grandma and said, Do you think she's gonna get the joke? And she looks at him and says, No, I don't think she's gonna get the joke. And I'm like, What fucking joke? And that's when I woke up in the recovery room. And then they wheeled me back to my room where my parents were waiting, and they're like, Oh, how are you? And I look at them and go, I saw grandma. And at that point, both of my grandmas were dead, so it was not good news.

SPEAKER_04: 33:18

Yeah, some panic and soon.

SPEAKER_05: 33:19

My dad goes, Yeah, a hundred percent panic. My my mom's like, Oh, okay, and my dad's like, cool, because I don't think at that point they had gotten any kind of communication that anything had gone you know, lightly awry.

SPEAKER_02: 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 33:33

And so we kind of left it at that at the m at for the time being, because I was obviously needing rest and more trans medicine, which just really makes the brain dead. So fast forward like four to five hours later. I think at that point I was still doing TPN, which is basically like force fed through your eye well through a line nutrition because I was not I couldn't eat, yeah. Nothing was happening for me that way. So I was eating like little snacks when I could, because that's obviously like really positive. A person is like wanting to eat and drink. So they would really encourage me. So, like a couple hours later, this nurse comes in and she's asking us, hey, so a family member of a different patient brought in some popcorn because they're gonna have a movie night. Would you guys like some popcorn? And that's when I completely lose my shit because I realized that everybody in DE world they were eating popcorn while watching me have surgery.

SPEAKER_04: 34:25

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05: 34:26

Like full on, just like movie theater time eating popcorn. Amazing. And that's when I literally yell out, Holy shit, you get popcorn when you die. And then the nurse is like, Okay, so you need to calm down. My parents are like, What the fuck is happening? People need to know. You get popcorn, because everybody needs to know. So, yeah, that's how that went.

SPEAKER_04: 34:46

Amazing.

SPEAKER_05: 34:47

That's the conclusion of that chapter. Yeah, you get popcorn when you die.

SPEAKER_04: 34:50

I'm so glad that you were just willing to share that story again with me and my listeners. Absolutely. Because yeah, I do think it's important, and it is a perspective that I haven't been able to explore. I mean, it is a little strange with these anonymous calls because I go into them completely unaware of what we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_03: 35:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 35:10

And I and I love that aspect of it, but I also want to make sure that I am bringing stories like this that offer different perspectives because ultimately I just I want to ch challenge the narratives. I want to get people thinking, well, I'm being self- I'm I'm just trying to get over my fear.

SPEAKER_05: 35:25

So I mean, I I'm hoping that how selfish selfish is means act.

SPEAKER_04: 35:29

Totally. I don't exactly know the context of this. The one thing that I will say is like, yes, I am very much doing this for myself, but if I was just doing this for myself, like right now, like I, you know, I have my microphone, I've got my phone propped in a certain way because I've got a camera recording me so I can have a video version of those. Yes, because this is all the quote unquote that like I don't think I've ever watched the video. I the video just started, but it was that was something that people were like, oh, you know, like you should do that. It brings out another audience and stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 35:59

And so it's like, yeah, I'm doing a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04: 36:04

Yeah, you are that I would not do it if this was just for me. Like if this was just for me. Exactly. You and I could have grabbed coffee, and I think we're we're we'll still plan on meeting up, but like all the people that I talk to, I could just do it on the phone in my living room with my dog and not worry about so many other things. In pajamas, yeah. I've heard from people, and it's a lot of times, you know, I'll get done with a caller, and I might hear for them a couple days later and be like, wow, that was so amazing. I'm so glad we did that. Or after, you know, an episode comes out, and they're like, Oh, I got I would share this with my family or whatever. And so I am glad that I am able to create a platform that feels like I'm giving some good to the world and creating some purpose. And so, yeah, I'm just very thankful that you were willing to come on and share that story and share your experience because it's a valid one and one that people need to hear and people need to know about.

SPEAKER_05: 36:51

And if I can say something, I you can as a person she thank you. Oh my god, as a person who is an experiencer, that's what we call ourselves. This kind of content offered up in such a like a you know, take it or leave it format and just a curiosity versus like anything else, really. Yeah, it helped me come to terms with having an NDE and being okay with it. And so, like, I really hope that people who are hearing this can have that same sense of like relief of like, okay, I'm not insane.

SPEAKER_02: 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 37:21

Or oh my god, my dad wasn't in you know, was not joking, or whatever. And like to give another kind of like tiny perspective, I did an interview with Talk Death Daily, um, my favorite author. But I just realized probably like a month ago, I just kind of went back to read it because it gives me dees bumps sometimes, which is fun. Somebody left a comment last year in January and hadn't seen it. And do you mind if I read it to you?

SPEAKER_04: 37:49

No, go for it, go for it.

SPEAKER_05: 37:50

So the thing is about my indie, so basically what everybody just heard. So I'm sorry, my cry. This helps me so much. My little boy died, and it's so helpful to think that he had a beautiful experience and that I will see him again. Thank you for talking about this topic. It is so taboo. We need to tell these stories more. And I just lost it. Like, I literally cried for like hours.

SPEAKER_01: 38:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 38:11

Because, like, that's a real life thing that I helped somebody like not even help, but like just I just told a story and it resonated so much that they left a comment and told me like a crazy intimate detail about their life.

SPEAKER_04: 38:23

I'm constantly baffled, absolutely baffled, that people are willing to sit down and talk with me. And the other thing is I also have the voicemail, you know, part of this project where you know you just call I'm gonna leave you voicemails now. You just call it and leave a voicemail. Perfect. It it is so wild to me that people, you know, do robots. Oh, totally. And it's like that is not why I created this, but I'm so glad that it is creating a place that people are willing to talk about it. And so yeah, I'm so glad.

SPEAKER_05: 38:55

I love that for you.

SPEAKER_04: 38:56

I I love that for both of us because you came onto the show and and shared your story and hopefully you continue the mission. I'm so glad that you came on the show. I'm so glad that we were able to connect through Lamore and I'm sure we'll stay connected. I don't know. I I still don't know exactly how the podcast is gonna work with like the anonymous now that I've kind of shifted this way, but like I could totally see you coming back on and telling more of your stories because now that we've name dropped everybody. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, thank you so much, and I'm still glad that we did this. And yeah, thanks for being vulnerable and sharing.

SPEAKER_05: 39:29

And absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 39:30

All right, take care.

SPEAKER_05: 39:31

Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_04: 39:33

What I love most about this call is how it refuses to fit neatly into a box. It's not a fully mapped out belief system, and it's not a sales pitch for certainty. It's one person telling the truth of what she experienced. Equal parts profound and playful. And maybe that's why her offhand line, cool, I'm dead, feels so fitting. It captures the mix of fear, wonder, and humor that runs through the whole conversation. It's not about having all the answers, but about finding a way to face death in a way that feels a little less heavy. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Diet Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do offer space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWedietox.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Call 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Another way to support the podcast is through When We Dietalks Plus. Members not only get early access to episodes, but also every Saturday contemplation. Short, guided reflections to help you pause and sit with these questions in your own life. And of course, sharing the podcast with friends or leaving a review goes a long way too. Until next time, have a good life.

SPEAKER_00: 40:55

So in the Jewish faith, there's this like wheel of life that you go through, like a soul's journey. And there's one that's the concept of Gilgul. And Gul Gul r like refers to like the cycle of reincarnation. And the idea is that you're spinning through various lives and incarnations in the pursuit of perfection. And then they're attached to like different human bodies over time. And the body they associate with depends on their like their like task in the world. And then the other thing which I think is really fun, is that Jewish people can't be buried in like non-biodegradable coffins and they're buried facing Israel because the idea is like when the Messiah comes, you roll under the ground Israel.

unknown: 41:40

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 41:40

And I think that's like awesome. Okay. Bye, thank you.