#33 - God Exists in the Space Between Us

What if the clearest way to love life is to look directly at death?

This week’s caller has lived with chronic illness, which has kept mortality close. But instead of fear, he’s found a deep sense of gratitude — for warmth, for connection, for the chance to still be here.

We talk about the small joys that give life its texture, and the ways imagination can shape belief. He shares how, as a child, The Velveteen Rabbit made him believe that love could bring something to life — and how that same sense of magic continues to color how he sees the world.

There’s also a story about a car accident in his twenties — the sudden thought, “Here I come, God,” flashing through his mind before impact. That moment opened a lifelong curiosity about what it really feels like to die, and what might happen in those final seconds of awareness.

From there, we explore consciousness, spirit, and the idea that maybe God isn’t separate from us at all — but something that lives in the space between people, in our attempts to truly understand one another.

It’s a conversation about illness, faith, imagination, and gratitude — and how even when we face death, there’s still beauty in simply being alive.

Book Recommendations: A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens; The Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams

Movie Referenced: Before Sunset (dir. Richard Linklater)

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

Memorial Jewelry by Nia Emberly
Transform ashes into pendants and bracelets that carry love every day.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 0:04 One Question, Many Directions
• 0:38 Sponsor: Turning Ashes Into Jewelry
• 1:11 Host’s Spiritual Curiosity
• 3:18 Introducing the Caller and Context
• 6:07 Books, Imagination, and Faith Seeds
• 8:36 What Happens When We Die?
• 11:46 Consciousness, Matter, and Mystery
• 15:38 Hopes For Freedom Beyond Constraints
• 22:04 The Death Shudder and Finite Time
• 26:37 A Near-Death Moment: “Here I Come, God”
• 27:49 Redefining God As Shared Understanding
• 32:21 Closing Reflections and Ways to Engage
• 33:47 Voicemail: Signs, Memory, and Love Endure

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:04

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is sponsored by Naya Emberly. We often think of ashes as something that has to stay tucked away in an urn. But what if they could become something you carry with you, close to your heart, every single day? At Naya Emberly, cremes are transformed using a proprietary process into timeless jewelry. Pendants and bracelets that hold both beauty and meaning. It's a way to keep your loved ones' presence with you, not hidden on a shelf. Because memories aren't meant to gather dust, they're meant to be lived with. Discover more at nayaemberly.ca or ask your local funeral provider for more info. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. I'm trying something a little new with this introduction. I want to start sharing more about what I'm exploring behind the scenes, to give you all a better idea of what I'm researching and learning, the ideas, books, and moments that are influencing how I think about death and what might come after. Maybe also as a way of keeping me accountable, to keep searching and exploring new ideas, to not get too stuck in one way of thinking. I'm hoping this opens up my journey to you a bit more instead of just hearing from me once a year. I've mentioned this a couple of times on recent calls, but lately I've been sitting with the idea of spirituality and what it even means for someone who wasn't raised with it. A friend recently recommended that I read Soul Boom by Rain Wilson. And there's a line in there that I really love and has given me a different perspective on what a true religious and possibly also spiritual practice looks like. Here it is. At the end of the day, in a healthy religious practice, there's a balance between self-experience and community service, between the inner quest and the outer mission. I know I tend to lean towards that inner quest, asking questions, turning things over in my head, but I hope this project in its own way is part of that outer mission too. And that's a good place to jump into this week's episode. Our caller has lived with chronic illness for most of their life. And while he doesn't see it as being a direct link between illness and death, it has given him a deep awareness of what it means to be alive. Instead of fear, what comes through is gratitude for the smallest moments, for connection, for the simple act of being alive. He shares stories about believing as a child that he could love a stuffed animal to life, and how that same belief in magic still shapes his faith today. We talk about surviving a car accident and the fleeting thought that flashed through his mind. Oh, here I come, God. And we explore his evolving view on divinity, not as a distant being, but as something that exists between people in the space where we try to truly understand one another. It's a conversation about illness, gratitude, and the beauty of believing that something continues, even if we can't explain what it is. I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_01: 3:20

Hello.

SPEAKER_02: 3:20

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01: 3:22

Not too bad. It's kind of one of those days where I'm going on vacation, so I'm trying to do all the work, all the packing, everything. And then I decided to talk with you as well for some reason.

SPEAKER_02: 3:34

Of course. Just pile it on. I'm doing all right. I feel like maybe not as exciting as going on a vacation, but it just feels like there's a lot going on and a lot that I'm trying to get done. And it just feels like there's not enough time. I don't know. But I don't normally ask this question because normally someone doesn't lead off with that they're going on vacation. Are you going somewhere exciting?

SPEAKER_01: 3:56

So kind of this is this sounds really bad. So I'm going to Hawaii. Okay.

unknown: 4:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:02

And I've never been to Hawaii.

SPEAKER_03: 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:04

And I haven't had a vacation all year. But I'm someone that tries to go as far away as I can. And so the fact that I'm just going to another state, it's not like vacation vacation.

SPEAKER_03: 4:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

And that sounds really that sounds really ungrateful, I guess, but it's just the only thing I could wrap together.

SPEAKER_02: 4:24

The great thing is nobody will ever contact you and judge you for it because you're anonymous.

SPEAKER_01: 4:29

So you got that going for you. That is true. I love going on vacation and that point in the airport, especially if I don't know the language, where I'm like a different part of your brain kind of activates.

SPEAKER_02: 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

It's like all almost instinctual.

SPEAKER_02: 4:45

Yeah. So I'm sure it'll still be a fun trip, but I I get what you're saying. It is nice to like go get like completely completely immersed in like a different culture and all that stuff. So I get that. I don't think you have to feel I don't think you have to feel guilty about that or anything, but hopefully you can still enjoy the trip and get some good sun and and some good weather.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

That's the goal.

SPEAKER_02: 5:06

Yeah. Well, so the first question that I normally ask, and this could be this could obviously set us off into the full conversation, but maybe just briefly you could let me know, outside of just trying to make your life more chaotic, why you wanted to do a call about death today.

SPEAKER_01: 5:21

I mean, to me, this is the question that I've been dealing with my whole life. I was chronically sick when I was young. Like I have always had this feeling that I would die young. It hasn't happened. But obviously. But like literally, it's a thing that I don't understand why we don't talk about more and why people don't talk about it more often. Absolutely. I'm always up for this conversation, and it's not something that comes up often.

SPEAKER_02: 5:57

Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you came across it and found it and that we're on the phone. And I'm sure we're gonna have a wonderful conversation. But we'll now we'll kind of get to know you just a little bit before we really dive in. I know where you're calling from, but maybe you can let the listeners know roughly where you're calling from, maybe city state, and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_01: 6:17

Los Angeles, California. Favorite book. Oh my gosh. That's almost as like that's almost as dense a question as the question of a podcast. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_02: 6:30

This is yeah, this is like I don't know boxing terms that well, but like my left jab when you're like expecting, you know, the right hook or something, and you're not the only person that's ever said this.

SPEAKER_01: 6:40

I think my answer would be a tale of two cities.

SPEAKER_02: 6:42

Oh, nice. I've never read it. I I think go ahead, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 6:46

Oh my gosh. You absolutely need to read it. It is I'm a big fan of plot and like tightly plotted things, and then like my work, politics, all of that stuff. It's all in there and it all folds in. Even our subject, like there's martyrdom. There's so much in there, and I don't want to give any of it away, but it's brilliant, and I fully recommend it. Interesting. Probably one of the yeah, one of the best books I've ever read.

SPEAKER_02: 7:14

Here's here's the only thing that I have to get past. Back in high school, freshman year, honors English, we had to read Great Expectations. And my sister was the literary person of the family or the child of the family. I was the math. And oh man, that was miserable. I absolutely hated it. I was also at a point in my life where I didn't really like reading. You're kind of being forced to read things, and I've definitely over the past couple years found an extreme love for reading. So maybe I'll take that challenge on because I I think it's actually one of my sister's favorite books, too. Tale of Two Cities.

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

Yeah, two things. One, I've never read Great Expectation, so I don't know the contrast or whatever. Yeah. My understanding is a Tale of Two Cities came out chapter by chapter in a newspaper.

SPEAKER_03: 7:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 7:59

And so each of it is like tightly written and made to drive you forward.

SPEAKER_03: 8:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 8:05

So I could be completely wrong. Maybe I mixed it up with other books, but that's my understanding. And I'm a comic book nerd, so there is that connection of loving that plot that has the cliffhanger and it keeps going.

SPEAKER_02: 8:17

Okay. I'll give it give it a try and maybe uh connect back with you and let you know what I think once I read Tale Two Cities. But I appreciate that recommendation. Yeah, absolutely. And the push into maybe some more historical literature. So I appreciate that. And now we can get into the easy question. You just, you know, you you got rid of the hard one, then we can just kick it off with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_01: 8:38

So I'm gonna give the most ambiguous answer, but I know to the essence of like my ability to breathe that something happens that we continue in some form, fashion, in some way.

SPEAKER_03: 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 8:54

Now, what that way is, I think, depending on the day, the hour, I change. And I think partially I grew up very fundamentalist Christian.

SPEAKER_03: 9:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 9:06

And so I grew up with that classic, you know, heaven, we're all singing and clouds or whatever capacity, which you know, now I I kind of see that as a political suffer now, so then you have your reward later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:25

But when I was 12 or 13, I went and talked to my pastor. And my pastor was like, You read science fiction, you have a larger imagination, you have a larger sense of what's possible.

SPEAKER_03: 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:37

And my pastor said, you know, in the Bible, it says that we will experience God and God's creation. And he was like, So what can you imagine the ability to be able to decide, like, I'm gonna experience what it's like to be an eagle and just go fly? Or to experience what it's like to be like a flower and to actually like come up through the ground and to experience that in all all its fullness. And so to me, like in the best possible sense, I think that's really fascinating. Like to just be able to go experience everything that you could ever experience. And then when I think about it now, at the age that I'm at, I think about like the conception that if we just die and we turn into you know the earth, the soil, and everything, yeah, parts of us end up in an eagle flying. Totally. Parts of us totally in a flower. So there's that conception too, you know?

SPEAKER_03: 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:39

I just know that there's something else. I don't know if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02: 10:43

It does. I I do have a maybe clarifying question. I have multiple questions. Yeah. When you say that you know something happens, does the last example that you gave if you just turn to dust, which I mean, I don't think that's something we can really argue, right? Like that's what happens, you know, at the most basic level to our physicality. Yeah, we will we will turn in back into the earth and we will exist in many capacities in many ways. And I think you just said it, the physicality, right? Does that fit into your idea of something happens? Because I mean, ultimately, I think the big thing that comes up a lot here and and the fine line we dance a little bit is consciousness. We know that we're physically, our bodies will decompose, become part of the soil, bugs will eat us, and then that will be food for another animal, and like you said, then we'll become a bird, and then some of us become water, you know, like that's gonna happen. When you say something happens, is that more of a yes, or more of like a consciousness, like a a self, an identity, you know, and how does that play into what you're thinking here?

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

Yeah, no, I think your spirit continues in some form.

SPEAKER_02: 11:49

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:50

And what that becomes, I don't know. You know, yeah. I when I was younger did psychedelics, and your ability to see more when you change your mind through that drug or that chemical, you see more of reality. Yeah, and so I do believe that our spirit or self sees more of that reality. This is getting really ambiguous.

SPEAKER_02: 12:17

No, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 12:18

I realize like I've just like trying to. So I don't know. Like, do I stay myself or after we pass, do we become something more and have experienced multiple lives? Like I'm up for all of it.

SPEAKER_03: 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:34

Like it's kind of like we were talking about going on vacation. If I tell you that I'm going to Hawaii, you have a conception of what Hawaii is going to be for me, right?

SPEAKER_03: 12:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:46

Beaches, all of those things. But you can't say exactly what's going to happen to me when I go there.

SPEAKER_02: 12:53

Totally.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

And what I'm going to experience. So I guess I see it in that same way. Like it's the next adventure in a certain way.

SPEAKER_02: 13:01

I definitely have more follow-up questions, but now I just have this vision of you, and I don't want this to come off weird, but I'm imagining you have died and you see the bright lights, and you kind of like step into them, and then you're sitting at an airport and you can't understand what anybody's saying, and you're like, Yep, this is where I'm supposed to be. That's what I'm imagining for you now, as like, yep, this is exactly what I want it to be. You just have to I would love that. And maybe that's what you get to get to believe in. So I mean, I think, and I think that leads kind of in what I was gonna ask is two questions, but I think I'll go with this one since it plays off of that a little bit. Knowing and having this feeling that there is something, is there something that you hope for? You know, is it like reincarnation? I don't necessarily know if that's what's gonna happen, but I really like the ideas behind that, and I think that would be beautiful. Or I don't know, we go back to this collective consciousness, or I don't know, we I go to heaven, you know. I'm curious if there's like a hope behind this feeling, this this belief.

SPEAKER_01: 14:08

Yeah, I mean, when I think of hope, like to me, like what is the best thing about life? Like, even on your most mundane days, there's experiences and things that you are just you're just experiencing, like drinking uh hot tea when it's cold or hearing the word I'm drinking hot tea right now.

SPEAKER_02: 14:28

It's not cold, but you just nailed what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

But it but there's something very beautiful in the very mundaneity of that. And so to me, continuing to experience the novelty of existence in some sort of capacity, that is my hope. And I love new experiences, and so that to me is my hope is that there is some sort of continuity of experience. That's really ambiguous. I realize.

SPEAKER_02: 15:02

No, but I mean, I the thing about that too, though, is that's part of like the fear with eternity with some people, right? It's like if I have to spend eternity, there's gonna be a point where there isn't experience anymore. Like there, there's nothing else to do. I've done it all. Or, or on the other side of it, I don't have to do anything because there's always gonna be more time for it. So I feel like I don't know, and then I'm I'm kind of putting words in your mouth, but the thing that I'm hearing from it is it's almost like there's still these experiences and this this newness that happens that you're hoping for.

SPEAKER_01: 15:35

Yeah. What the modernity, yeah, that comes out of the constraints of my current reality. I guess my current physicality that is very, you know, with the illnesses that I have, with the things that constrain me, the idea that those could no longer constrain me, yeah. The my social location, you know, those kinds of things, like to be able to change my paradigm, that to me, I guess, would be really exciting.

SPEAKER_03: 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:06

When we talk about reincarnation, I guess what I think is hard for me, like it's a good version, I guess, of what's next, but the idea that once again I'm being constrained in something seems like that's not as hopeful.

SPEAKER_02: 16:22

Yeah, you want to be free.

SPEAKER_01: 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:25

And I don't I don't think that's crazy at all. I think this is probably the bigger question. That that last one just kind of fit in right what we were talking about. So this is kind of bringing it back a little bit to probably the first thing that you said in in answering this question. You say that you just have this innate feeling that there's something. Where does that come from? Yeah, what sparks that? What gives you that feeling?

SPEAKER_01: 16:48

It's something, it's in my same conception that I know that God exists, which is a whole whole other space. I'm sure that we can't.

SPEAKER_02: 16:58

It's like you what we're we're like 20 minutes in and you drop God in here now, and okay, so we gotta go down that rabbit hole in a second.

SPEAKER_01: 17:08

No, it's and I don't know if it's the fact that I have spent a lot of time in bed ill.

SPEAKER_03: 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:15

I don't know if it's my sense of the magic of reality. The marvels of what? Of kindness, of goodness, of these are these big words that are not, I feel like I'm not centering down into your question.

SPEAKER_02: 17:32

No, you're you're doing a great job.

SPEAKER_01: 17:34

Okay, here's I'm gonna use a story to hopefully explain my metaphor. Okay. Um, Velveteen Rabbit was my favorite book as a child.

SPEAKER_02: 17:44

I'm gonna add that to your favorite books for the episode.

SPEAKER_01: 17:46

Okay. And part of that book is that the person gets sick and they have like a stuffed animal they love, and they have to burn all the stuffed animals because they're infectious or that kind of thing. But his bunny, he loves that bunny, that rabbit, so much that it becomes alive. And I remember as a kid sitting on my front stoop, and this is so like it makes any sense, but trying to turn my stuffed animal alive.

SPEAKER_04: 18:20

And knowing that it was possible.

SPEAKER_01: 18:22

Knowing that it was possible, like I believe it was possible that there I just needed this much more belief, and it would be possible.

SPEAKER_03: 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:31

And I believe that I see that magic in the kindness of people, in what I see happens, the ability, no matter how dark things get, there's always some light too. So to me, that is the belief that we continue on that same magic, and that's the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:49

There's something that you said there, and it's I don't know how far to off topic we're getting, but I'm okay with it. Um these usually go in a lot of different places. But I do think that is one of it's one of the great, I don't know if it's a paradox or just this weird thing about existing in life. But when we really want to be good, we really can like come together and do amazing things. And it is really beautiful, the collective, the love, the care. But then we can also be really horrible and brutal. And I think the problem is that just you know, the news cycle and all this stuff. Of course, what we get thrown in our faces is anger, outrage, and fear and all that stuff. But every now and then, I can't even remember what I was watching something on Instagram last night. It was just like a clip of this musician. He's playing in front of this massive audience, and apparently he has Tourette and starts just having this like attack, and he can't sing the song. And this audience is massive. I mean, it's thousands and thousands and thousands of people, and they just all start singing the song back to him. And it'll just like, and I mean, I I I'm I'm crying, you know, like I'm watching this and I'm it doesn't even this didn't happen that recent. I think it's years ago or whatever, not like super long. We can really come together and just be so beautiful and so caring. And I think it's beautiful, and I don't think it's crazy. Like as a kid, it I think it's sad that we lose those beliefs that, you know, if you just gave that stuffed animal enough love, it'll come alive. And I'm guessing from some of the stuff that you've talked about and the Velveteen Rabbit being kind of an important book. Like, you've been battling chronic illness your entire life, it seems like.

SPEAKER_01: 20:32

I have, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:33

Yeah, and that's that's not easy. Constant pain. Oh, I'm so sorry. That can't be easy. And I if you're willing to talk about it a little bit, I'm curious how that has impacted your thoughts around death. If you're not, it's totally fine.

SPEAKER_01: 20:47

No, I am absolutely open to it. It's interesting that I don't connect the two, other than how we were just talking about the constraints of my physicality.

SPEAKER_03: 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

But yeah, I don't know. Like to me, it is the thing that I bear, but I know others bear other things. You know, I had a wonderful childhood. I had parents that were together and took care of me. I mean, we were poor, but they loved me.

SPEAKER_04: 21:13

There's love.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

As I get older, and yeah, as I get older, I see more and more how special and lucky I was, you know. And so to me, this is just the thing that I bear. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:26

So yeah, I I'm not sure that I connect the two.

SPEAKER_02: 21:29

Yeah. I'm not saying that you need to, right? And I definitely don't want to like force it or anything, but there's definitely people that I talk to where it's like, yeah, you know, I have had chronic illness or I'm going through something right now, and you know, it brought about, and again, I'm not trying to push anything, but it's like brought upon a spiritual awakening. You know, I went on this journey, you know, because I was going through this or whatever. And so I was just curious because, you know, I know it is a connection point for some people. But yeah, it doesn't, it definitely doesn't make life easy. But I do think it obviously you've already talked about it, but it makes sense why the things that you believe and hope for and want make total sense because of that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:04

So I don't know if you know who Cornell West is, but he's an activist, he's a college professor and everything. And in his autobiography, he talks about something called the death shudder. And it's it's this awareness of death that follows you all the time. It's this reality that you know you're going to die and it it doesn't go away. And I think a lot of people, and even a lot of the darkness in this world is a lot of people trying to avoid this concept.

SPEAKER_03: 22:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_01: 22:36

This reality. To me, like I don't understand how people can be so awful when we know that we're we only have 75, 80, 100, if we're lucky, years.

SPEAKER_03: 22:48

Yeah, it's finite.

SPEAKER_01: 22:49

Why wouldn't we make it as best as possible?

SPEAKER_02: 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:53

Everything turns to dust. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:56

I I love that you brought that in because I think that is it's what I'm hearing from you. And it's we we chatted very briefly last night, and you said that you hadn't listened to the podcast, which is totally fine and and great, honestly. Like I actually like that you don't necessarily know what you're getting at. You would have been able to prepare for your book book question. But you know, the reason I started this was because I had a lot of fear and anxiety. I probably still do. I don't know how to quantify it anymore, and I don't know if I really need to quantify it. Exactly what you're just talking about is the awareness, and I don't want to say constant, but it is a pretty constant thought. I'm talking about death, I'm working on this project quite a bit, so there's a pretty constant death thought. It has not made me more fearful, it has made me more excited about life. And maybe excited's not the right word, but just understanding that this is finite. And it's like I always knew everybody knows that, but it's not until you actually start sitting and thinking about it. Or I think when you have a chronic illness or you're fighting cancer, or you have you know something, or that awareness is pushed in your face, it's not a concept that you consider a lot. And I think it's actually a disservice to life because you don't then consider how precious this is. And that's uh that's what I'm getting from you is uh how much you appreciate life. And it's so funny that actually we started on a note of you saying, I know I sound I don't sound grateful, but I would say I feel like every moment of this conversation I felt gratitude from you for life, for existing and for all the circumstances of your life. I feel that gratitude.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

I don't think there's a bigger compliment I could be given than what you just gave me.

SPEAKER_02: 24:37

Oh well I'm glad. I don't know. You just seem like you seem grateful for being here. And I think that's a thing that a lot of people say but don't actually take into consideration what that really means. And it's hard to take that into consideration without thinking about your mortality.

SPEAKER_01: 25:01

Yeah. So can I totally flip our where we're at?

SPEAKER_02: 25:06

You're the you're the true boss of this. I'm just I'm just trying to lead the conversation in ways. So yeah, take us where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

So I think you were talking about existential dread, you know, that thing that comes, you know, and it pops up. And so can I give you my current existential dread?

SPEAKER_03: 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

I am fascinated by the idea of that moment when you know you're gonna die. And I'm not talking about like hospital bed, like that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04: 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:36

But like you're in a car accident and you see yourself leading out. Like, what are those thoughts?

SPEAKER_03: 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:43

Like, what are people's thoughts are like, this is how my story ends?

SPEAKER_03: 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

I'm fascinated by stories, and so I'm just because we don't know, like, we don't like would you conceptually be like, oh, this is this is it, this is how my story ends. Like I'm fascinated by that and how much of whether you have the time to conceptualize.

SPEAKER_02: 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:06

To give you more context when like go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 26:10

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I just think the thing that came to my mind initially is you always kind of hear about the the DMT rush. Does that actually happen in an emergent or a sudden death, I guess, is maybe because they always talk about that. That's the process that kind of slows down time. So I think, yeah, that's right, that's a fascinating thing to ponder. But yeah, you were gonna continue and I cut you off. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 26:36

No, no. So I was part of my chronic pain, I was in a massive car accident around the age of 20. And so I was going down the highway about 55 miles per hour, and the car turned left right in front of me. And I had just long enough to think, oh, here I come, God. Whoa. And so I don't know why lately this has just been my thought process of like, I wonder, like, what is that? Like, what is that last moment? Like, and how is that?

SPEAKER_02: 27:08

Because, like you're saying, that was not your last moment, right? It was the moment the couple, the potential, you know, if it actually happened, that was the moment right that was before the moment, right? You know, so it is interesting, it is very interesting to think about. These are the things that like just evokes an interesting conversation. I'd much rather talk about this than like what people do for a living or how good the weather's been or how bad the weather's been. Because I think you really get to know someone through these questions. But you did say the word again, and I forgot to ask about it. You've mentioned God a couple times, and so I am super curious what that looks like in your mind. What is God to you?

SPEAKER_01: 27:49

So I'm gonna cheat. Um, I was in I was in seminary, and so I in my essay, I wrote this, and so that's what I'm gonna give you. Perfect. Um I think it's changed, or but there's a movie before sunset, Richard Linkletter. I don't know if you've seen it.

SPEAKER_02: 28:07

I don't think I have seen it.

SPEAKER_01: 28:08

But there's it's about an American meeting a French woman, and they have one night together. Okay. And they talk, and the whole movie is just them talking about life and stuff. But there's one part of the movie where she says to him actually, I could be wrong. It could be him, it could be her. But it says, if God exists, God exists in me talking to you and trying to that understanding of each other. When we are trying to understand each other, right there is where God exists. That conception of trying to understand each other's sense of self and giving their full, their fullness, recognizing them as a full person, worthy of love, worthy of existence, all of those things. And then in the Bible it says when two or more are gathered, God is there. So that was my essay. I I just folded both of those together. Amazing. So that's good. But but to me, ultimately, God exists in our communication, our sense of self together. And I think God is always working to knit ourselves together.

SPEAKER_02: 29:18

I did not grow up religious, I don't have a religious background. My theory for, you know, until I kind of started this project was that nothing happens. We return to the earth and and game over essentially. But in this exploration, I'm tapping into different ideas and learning a lot about different cultures and religions and all this stuff. I do think that there is something about connection that we are further from now than we have been maybe ever. I don't know. It's hard to say that. That's a pretty grand statement. But there is something, and like you're saying, this conversation between the two of us, there's probably an infantismal uh possibility. That you and I would have met ever. Right. But we're here on the phone having a deep conversation. And there is a connection here. There is, you know, that deepening of understanding of self with each other. And I sense that that is what we need more of. And I think some of that, at least for me, that connection extends to nature. We've gotten so detached from nature, that connection, love. I think, you know, I'm going to be thinking about you as a child holding a stuffed animal trying to love it alive for a long time, I think. But I there is power in love, like true love. And that's not just romantic love, right? You know, that is love with friends and community and all that stuff. And I love kind of what you brought in there because I think it's a beautiful definition. I don't know if definition is the right word. Again, remember, I was the math kid, not the we should I my sister should be doing this instead of and I mean your proof, like geometry, your proof?

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Yeah. That's true.

SPEAKER_02: 31:05

Yeah. Yeah, I can work on a proof for it.

SPEAKER_01: 31:09

Um but I mean, there is a reason why every religious tradition sits at the table as part of the ritual.

SPEAKER_02: 31:17

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the thing that we forget is how similar a lot of the religions are. You know, there are those foundations across the board. I think that's humanity too. We've got a lot of similarities. But man, do we really love to like break each other apart for the differences? And it's unfortunate. But I just I just want to say again that I'm I'm grateful to you for you for being willing to jump on this call and talk about death while you're packing for vacation. I had a wonderful time chatting with you. I think it was a fantastic call.

SPEAKER_01: 31:54

Well, I'm grateful for this project. Like I said, like I think that this is a conversation that needs to be happening because I do think the more people understand how limited time we have here, the more willing to think about how we can make life better here for everyone.

SPEAKER_02: 32:11

Yeah. I think that's a beautiful note to end on. And again, thank you. And we'll definitely have to stay in touch. And I hope you take care.

SPEAKER_01: 32:18

You too. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02: 32:20

Yep. I know I already mentioned this during the call, but what I keep coming back to from this conversation is gratitude. Not the kind that comes from trying to be positive, but the kind that comes from seeing life clearly, knowing it won't last, and loving it anyway. My caller lives without awareness every day. And somehow, instead of fear, what comes through is awe. For a warm cup of tea, for a body that still carries them, for another day to know that the world's changing. Maybe that's what faith really is. Gratitude stretched wide enough to hold even the things we don't understand. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Call 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Another way to support the podcast is through When We Dietalks Plus. Members not only get early access to episodes, but also every Saturday contemplation. Short, guided reflections to help you pause and sit with these questions in your own life. And of course, sharing the podcast with friends or leaving a review goes a long way too. Until next time, have a good life.

SPEAKER_00: 33:47

I lost my brother. Uh it'll be seven years on April 5th. Um, he was my half-brother. We have different mothers, same father, an abusive man, but a caring and loving man that comes from pain. Isn't that where pain comes from? Anyway, my half-brother died. And I know he has not. He speaks to me all the time. Today I found a five-link plover. I found one on the one-year anniversary of his death. And I found one on his 30th birthday. Which was four years ago. And that's all. That's the only time I've ever found them. Five-link clover. I'm born on St. Patrick's Day and I find a fourthly clover. Just walking down the street. So anyway, um I believe that as long as we continue to remember them, they continue to speak to us on some level neurologically. There's so little we know about our brain, and I know that just like my childly in my mind all the time. Like literally in my body. I believe in somebody genetically living some look too. And I miss him. And I loved him. And I love him. And he continues to show me love back. Someday it's a five-life clover. Someday it's in a voice that reminds me of him just walking down the street. But I know he watches carefully over a talk. Anyway, we know so little about our mind. We know so little about that. And they handle it so poorly. I wish we understood more.