#34 - The Way We Mourn Down Under

In this week’s call, an anonymous caller from Perth, Australia — with deep family roots in Colombia — shares how culture, belief, and experience shape the way we face death.

She describes an Australia where humor keeps things light, sometimes at the cost of connection, and a Colombia where grief is collective — marked by candles, stories, music, and the warmth of family gathered to mourn and celebrate together. Those contrasts reveal not just different customs, but different ways of healing. When we share laughter or song, we resist the isolation that so often shadows Western grief.

Our conversation moves through faith and spirituality — from Catholicism to paganism to a blended, loving Christianity — and into a view of God and the universe rooted in compassion. She speaks of an afterlife that might meet each of us where we are: heaven, reincarnation, liminal spaces, or even the quiet possibility of nothingness. But more than any theory, it’s love that carries through — what we give, what we leave, what others hold on to.

The image she leaves us with lingers: when we die, we return to the universe like stardust — scattered, but still ourselves in the people and patterns we’ve touched.

Book Recommendations: The Book Thief by Markus Zusak; The Werewolf by Angela Carter (I believe “The Werewolf” is part of Angela Carter’s book of stories, The Bloody Chamber.)

Existence Is Evidence of Immortality by Michael Huemer

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

The Death Deck: Talk About the Future
A Lively Party Game to Share Stories and Beliefs

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 0:04 One Question That Starts Everything
• 0:37 Sponsor: The Death Deck
• 1:15 Infinity, Time, And Humer’s Paper
• 2:39 A Caller From Perth With Colombian Roots
• 4:36 Why Talk About Death At All
• 7:49 What Happens When We Die
• 10:12 Spirituality Versus Religion
• 13:52 A Blended Faith And Core Values
• 16:24 Death Culture In Australia
• 19:28 Mourning Together In Colombia
• 23:25 Grief, Community, And Memory
• 27:12 Final Message: Return To Stardust
• 30:00 Reflections And Ways To Participate
• 37:26 Postscript: Loss, Belonging, And Energy

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:04

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is brought to you by The Death Deck. Wanna talk to your family members about the future but don't know how to start? The Death Deck is a lively game that uses multiple choice questions and a dose of humor to help start conversations about death, dying, and illness. Learn new and interesting things about your friends and family members while becoming prepared for the future. And new this fall, the Death Deck introduces the Dementia Deck, a planning tool to talk about the type of care and treatment you'd want if you were living with dementia. All Death Deck products are available at thedeathdeck.com. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. I've been reading this philosophy paper called Existence is Evidence of Immortality by Michael Humer. And it's one of those pieces that hits both sides of my brain, the philosophical and the mathematical. Humor starts with a simple idea that it's nearly impossible to imagine space having an edge. Because no matter where you are, you can always ask, what's one meter beyond that? And the same he says is true of time. If we start to imagine it having a beginning, we have to picture a moment before time began, which doesn't really make much sense. Time like space might be infinite in both directions. And from that he argues something even wilder. And here's a quote from the paper. You would be more likely to be living now if persons could live many times than if persons could only live once in the history of the universe. It's such a strange, beautiful way to think about existence. This idea that the fact we're here at all might be evidence that we've been here before or will be again. It actually reminded me of this Buddhist story about a blind turtle in a golden ring, where a turtle living at the bottom of the ocean surfaces once every hundred years. And the odds of it poking its head through the floating ring are said to be about the same as being born a human. Two totally different ways of thinking about it. One logical, one poetic, but both pointed to the same truth. It's a miracle we exist at all. Just something interesting I wanted to share. Maybe it'll make you think a little bit differently. I'll link the paper in the show notes for anyone who wants to check it out. This week we're going international again. Our anonymous caller comes from Perth, Australia, but also has deep family roots in Colombia. That combination gives her a fascinating view of how culture shapes our relationship with death. In Australia, she says, people often meet death with humor, a kind of cultural instinct to keep things light. But beneath that ease, there's a loneliness to how grief unfolds, often in private and without much space to talk about it. But in Colombia, death is communal. It's something to be mourned and celebrated together through family, stories, and music. We talked about the beauty of that contrast, about spirituality and religion, and about what it means to stay connected even after someone is gone. One quick note before we dive in there won't be a new episode next week on October 29th. I'll be away on a meditation retreat, taking a week to unplug, but there will be a new Saturday contemplation on November 2nd. And since it's the first one of the month, it'll be available to everyone. Alright, let's jump into the call. I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_04: 3:40

Hi there.

SPEAKER_02: 3:41

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_04: 3:42

Hi, it's going well, thank you. How about you?

SPEAKER_02: 3:45

Good. I love the like different dial tone that I got. And as I was calling, Google Voice was like, oh, we're routing this through, you know, international. And so it makes me feel so fancy. So thank you. Thank you for being willing to do this. No worries. I feel like right off the top, I do need to say, I mean, I think for you and for the listeners, I had such a struggle with getting this scheduled. And I'm so sorry that I was just I hopefully through this call I can prove I'm not an idiot. But man, I was struggling with the time difference. So we'll get into where you're calling from in a second. But I just wanted to say off the top, thank you for bearing with me while I was figuring that all out. I appreciate it, and I'm thankful for you staying up late and for me getting up early to make this happen. So um I'm really excited to do this call.

SPEAKER_01: 4:32

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_04: 4:33

Me too, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:34

So maybe right off the top, just kind of briefly, why did you even want to do a call about death?

SPEAKER_04: 4:40

I think death is something that people kind of shy away from a lot in general. And you can't really have a kind of a conversation about it without kind of people sometimes taking offense or you know, not really getting into it and sort of just treating it as like something fun, which it it can be something fun to talk about, but I just things of like this this kind of these kinds of topics, the macabre has always really interested me. It's just fascinating. It really is.

SPEAKER_02: 5:15

That's awesome. I also love that you drop the word fun because I am like 90% sure at some point in this call, probably towards the end, I'll say something like, oh man, that was such a fun conversation. And then I always am like, oh wait, hold on. Like, I don't want that to be weird or awkward, but I think you're right. Having conversations, deep conversations, connecting conversations. Yeah, of course they're fun because it's like you get to connect with another human. And especially with this, I say this sometimes to the US callers that I talk to, but especially you and I, there is a very, very, very small chance, very small chance that you and I would ever meet and talk. And then even if we did meet and talk, we probably wouldn't have a conversation around death. And so I love that this is connecting us, and I'm looking forward to chatting with you. And so maybe I've I've kind of teased it out a little bit. Maybe you can give an idea of where you're calling from so people can know, and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_04: 6:11

Oh, okay. That that those are some good things. Okay, so for uh for where I'm calling from, I come from Perth, Western Australia, the side that no one goes to. Um, very cool. Quite fun here. Quite fun, no tourists.

SPEAKER_02: 6:32

That does sound great, honestly.

SPEAKER_04: 6:34

No, no, it honestly is underrated, definitely. And my favorite book. Oh, dear lord, I have so many.

SPEAKER_02: 6:44

You can name a couple if you want to as well. It doesn't have to be just one.

SPEAKER_04: 6:47

Oh, yeah, yeah, no. It's just because it's so unexpected.

SPEAKER_02: 6:51

I know.

SPEAKER_04: 6:52

I would have to say, oh, you know what? One of them is the Book Thief, which is kind of on brand.

SPEAKER_02: 6:59

Yeah, that's a great book.

SPEAKER_04: 7:01

Yeah, it's it's fantastic. And then another would be it is actually this one rendition of Little Red Riding Hood done in kind of a brother's grim setting. I forget who the author is, but she does this kind of like a dark take on it. And it's just oh, it's it's gorgeous. It's such a it's such a good book. It's called The Werewolf, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 7:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 7:27

It's it's so in-depth, it's so grim. I I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 7:30

Awesome. And yeah, thank you for like digging in and and really figuring out the hard questions there. Cause your favorite book is that is a challenging question.

SPEAKER_01: 7:39

It is, yeah. Oh dear lord, it is. But I'm got through it, quite through it.

SPEAKER_02: 7:44

You did, you survived. And now now to the easy question, the big question, and we'll just see where this takes us. But what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_04: 7:52

Oh Lord, what do we think? You know, people like whenever I ask people this, like personally, they always say kind of like one thing. It could be this or that or the other. And I'm gonna be a little bit, you know, weird and say that I think multiple things happen. Okay. I think it is different for everybody. You know, I I'm a very spiritual person at heart. I've had a lot of spiritual encounters. I feel a lot of different types of energies, and even it's just a little bit crazy to kind of say aloud, but I feel it is true. So people people stay after they die, that their spirits, they're restless reincarnation. I'm open to that idea. You know, heaven or hell could be grand possibility, you could go into nothingness. That scares me the most out of anything. But I feel the way in which we project ourselves and what kind of we internalize could very well happen to us. There's it it makes sense to me. I I don't know if you need clarification on that, but I mean we'll dig we'll dig into all of that.

SPEAKER_02: 9:05

Um it's interesting, and I think this is always the part of the conversation where I have so many questions, and I'm like, which direction do I want to go? And I think one of the ones, because this is I've had one other person kind of mention something similar to this where it's death meets us where we are, you know, and and some of us are, you know, religious and think that we're gonna go to heaven, and so that, you know, death meets us in that way. And so I'm kind of curious if I don't know, parsing through what you said, because my fear is my fear with this book, I have been a nothingness believer, which, like you said, is terrifying. And probably why I started this project because I have I have these fears and anxieties. So when you say it shows up in multiple ways, I'm trying not to put words in your mouth and try not to pull in the other call that I just referenced. Oh no, um so for me, and now I'm like, now this feels like a therapy section. I'm like, so does so if I keep on believing in nothingness, does that mean that's what I'm gonna get? I'm curious of like how you think it shows up for us and if I need to panic even more than I already am.

SPEAKER_04: 10:12

Okay, this is it it is a hard question because you know you can never really answer for sure. Totally. I don't think we're ever gonna get an answer. But what I do believe will happen is that it happens in the way that it is necessary for us and a way in which we also project they kind of go hand in hand. Maybe you let's say you want to go to heaven, let's say you want to go to heaven, but you know, especially kind of in like in like in a Christian belief, um, I'm pretty sure some Christians think like this. Maybe, maybe you don't go to heaven straight away, maybe you go to purgatory because there are some things that you need to resolve, or maybe you believe in that, but you get stuck on this plane of existence in in a kind of a limbo state, like many spirits, because something may have happened and your spirit never got resolved, like basically you have unfinished business. I think it pops up in those kinds of ways. So if you believe in nothingness, there is a chance that yeah, you you it might just be nothingness, but then you have to kind of look at the fact that it's your fear, that's something that you don't want to happen. So it'd be quite contradictory if that's what you got, because the energy that you are putting out is your you you do think that it's gonna happen, but it's a negative sort of energy of something that you don't want to happen. Your spirit is kind of restless with that, and I feel I feel like it'll be very um ironic if that's what happened, if if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02: 11:44

It does. It's also kind of cruel, right? If that's what happens, then it's kind of like it's like a punishment, right? And so it's okay, if that's what this was all about, then that's that's kind of unfortunate, but okay. But I do I do love this kind of idea because we all are individuals and we all have our own beliefs, and like you said, we're never gonna know until I guess we know, and that becomes very interesting. But it'd be really unfortunate for people who believe very strongly in something, like you're saying, like in Christianity, like heaven, and then it to not turn out that way and be like, and if you there is awareness, if there is self and it sounds like your idea well that's actually maybe an interesting question because with nothingness, but I think by and large it feels like your idea still has this idea of self. But like if you still have your identity of self and then you end up one of the other options that isn't heaven or something, then you're like, oh, I'm disappointed or whatever. That's very interesting. But I also feel like it's very beautiful and poetic the way that you're talking about it. Where does this where does this belief and idea come from? And you said that you're very spiritual, is there religious background? I know at least and I think that's something that like I'm teetering on the edge of talking about, and I I really do want to talk about this because at least in the United States, I would say a lot of people now will say, I'm spiritual but not religious. And I think what we we'll probably get into at some point in this call, but I'm also very curious about the culture of death there and how it's different or similar to how it is here, because I think that's one of the big things with reaching out to people internationally is to try to get voices that aren't from the United States. But I am curious, you know, being around the world, you know, what the influence is like. And that was a lot of questions and rambling. So I'm just gonna stop talking now.

SPEAKER_04: 13:36

I you're fine. I have a plethora of things. You're gonna be very excited. I I I'm gonna have a field day with this. So let's get to my religious beliefs first. I've had a long history with them. I was born into kind of Catholic Christian family, and I believed in that for a while. Never never went to church or anything really, unless it was like once in a blue moon. But I sort of grew up with this idea of God. Something's happened in my life and I became agnostic. And through that, I then started branching out into other religions, trying to find out what worked for me. I looked into reading about just the basics of every other religion, and I really read into spirituality. I got into that for a while, like a lot of spiritualism. I got into paganism even. Can I stop you for one second?

SPEAKER_02: 14:27

Because I'm actually now you now I'm like very curious, and I'm so sorry to cut you off, but I didn't grow up religious. And so I talk about I feel like now I'm finding spirituality. I think I don't really know what that means. And so I'm actually very curious because you did describe, you know, religion, religion, religion, and then you're like, I found spirituality. And so can you maybe share a little bit more about what that maybe difference feels like to you and what that means? I'm actually really curious about that too. Just piling on the questions for you.

SPEAKER_04: 14:56

You're fine. I've got them backed up in my head. Um sorry, with people saying that, I usually see that uh there is a common factor of them saying they're not religious and they don't want to take any form of sort of practice or do anything that kind of requires any kind of devotion, but they do believe that there is something out there that there is meaning for us because again, humans love meaning, they love attaching things, putting them in boxes, and it's better than thinking about you know nothingness. There's nothingness, it's it's horrifying to me. I I hate it. Yeah, but for me, I I always like believed in God. I always believed that there was a high power, and I still do, but we'll get into that in a minute. The main differences I saw was that with religion you look to something higher than yourself in a way in which it is personified and that you have to and that you have to follow very certain rules and regim like rules.

SPEAKER_01: 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:03

And there's like guidelines. It's all about instruction. There's guidelines.

SPEAKER_01: 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:08

It's it's very classic, it's very traditional, whether as spirituality means to strip all that away and to look outwards onto nature instead of upwards into the heavens, so to say, and it's looking around us, looking at humanity and saying this is what we should be focusing on. We should be focusing on the earth and what is out there in terms of energies rather than one being. Um that was beautiful. And so that's the big difference that I saw. That was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, of course, of course. And that ties into what I'm about to say. So I again I went into spirituality, then I went into a little bit of paganism. I explored Wicca very briefly, I explored other routes that I didn't go down, and it was a dark time in my life for it's personal reasons, you know. Yeah. But I eventually I didn't really I I decided to stick to kind of this sense of spiritualism. And funnily enough, after a few more life events, I went back to Christianity, but not in the sense that you really might think, because I still I combine both of those ideologies I told you about, and I don't really go to church because it is it I have my own traumas with religion, definitely. But I believe that you know there is a God and He is loving and He loves us, but it works in tandem with the universe, with nature, and with energies, and that those energies they're so like it's so potent and powerful, and they work hand in hand. And you know, I look at things like the Bible as basic instructions on how to live to make your life easier rather than something that you'll be punished or condemned for. It is like the things that the Bible tells you not to do, like don't sin because of this. It isn't saying don't sin, otherwise I'm going to punish it, it's saying don't sin because you are going to hurt yourself. Of course, all of these like guidelines seem so strict, but obviously it's within moderation, and that there are so many things probably not on the page, and so many different contexts, and you know, it was written so long ago, but just the most important rules that I really take to heart are just love each other as you would love yourself, and just love God, that's it. Just love. That's that's kind of my principle. Yeah, so not sure if that was convoluted or not. No, no, it was great. I get a lot of I get a lot of backlash for it.

SPEAKER_02: 18:51

People do not like my view, but um well that's a that's the great thing about this, is nobody'll know it's you.

SPEAKER_04: 18:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 18:58

I think the one thing that came up for me was like when you're talking about God and you know the the Bible and these ideas, it's it also reminds me of, and I've talked about this a couple times, those are also very foundational in other religions, right? These like base tenets, like they all have the same general ideas of be kind to others, take care of others, love each other, you know, like it's very foundational. And and like you said, I I do think a lot of it just comes back to to love and taking care of each other. The other thing that I mentioned that I think would be interesting to tap into is what is the death culture like in Australia? I assume I think there's very few places in the world that really like to talk about death. I've talked to some people from Mexico where it's Day of the Dead, and you you think that there is this culture that is really like embracing death, and from the couple people that I talk to, and of course that doesn't, you know, that's not you know, every single person feels this way, but from what I've heard is death is very much alive those couple days around Day of the Dead, and otherwise it's really not talked about. And there is influence from the United States on Mexico, but there's also I think some like and I'm blaming on the word because it's it's early and my brain's not fully functioning yet, but there's like some concern of if I talk about death, then it's gonna happen. I can't think of it and it's gonna drive me crazy. Superstition? Yes, yes, exactly. See, see, you are the smart. I'm not proving myself to not be stupid on this call, I think. It's still happening.

SPEAKER_04: 20:34

Oh, you would you're doing fine, you're doing fine.

SPEAKER_02: 20:37

There's definitely this superstition around it. And so I'm curious, oh yeah, what does what is the death culture like there? And maybe that'll kind of give an idea to the listeners of some differences, or you know, is this still very kind of like westernized culture?

SPEAKER_04: 20:53

I'm gonna give you two perspectives here because I've grown up in two places. Um, my heritage is in Colombia.

SPEAKER_01: 21:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 21:01

So I'm gonna give you South Americans p perspective as well, and I will give you the perspective here. So here it is extremely Western, it's serious and yet unserious at the same time. But the unseriousness, Australians are usually they have this kind of blanket of toll poppy syndrome. If you're not aware of what toll poppy syndrome is, it's basically this not caring, nonchalant attitude. People don't really ask each other how you are or if it is, it's very surface level kind of like, oh yeah, I'm fine, or yeah nah, it's whatever. If you're if you do anything and you try and you love something, you're seen as try hard, pretty much, and it you're made fun of, really. And that's it it's just very kind of uncaring, and that's one of the things about Australia that I probably hate the most is it is such a wide spread mess of that, and with death, that can happen sometimes. One of our prime ministers, we don't have presidents here, we have prime ministers. One of our prime ministers went swimming, never came back, and no one cared.

SPEAKER_02: 22:09

Really?

SPEAKER_04: 22:10

I mean, he had swimming schools named after him. Yeah, that's like some of the schools in the co but like pretty much that's it. I mean, we're just very unserious as a nation. One of our prime ministers shat himself in a McDonald's and everybody laughed at him. It was on the news, it was hilarious. And that's it. We don't put them on pedestals, we just don't care. They really do need to prove themselves to us. But with death, I mean, as as a whole country, I think we do take it pretty serious. Okay. We had we had a lot of we we did have use of guns um way back uh 19 something. Please don't quote me on that. I was gonna say it was like the 80s or 90s, I think. Yeah. 80s, 90s, around just the 1900s in general. And we had a we had a shooting, maybe 30 people died, or a lesser number than that. And the government thought that's it. Yeah. And that was that was the one and final straw, and we had tons of restrictions on guns since then. You have to go through many licenses, many registrations to own them. You can only own them in particular ways, you can only use them for particular things, you can only store them in particular manners. It's very, very heavy-handed stuff. So no one here really owns a gun unless you are out in the country or you do it. And you need it, you don't own a gun.

SPEAKER_02: 23:40

I've seen some of the things out in the out back, and it I'm terrified.

SPEAKER_04: 23:44

No, no, they're they're fine. Just don't fuck with them and they won't fuck with you.

SPEAKER_02: 23:48

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04: 23:49

It's a good mentality to have that they'll attack you. Or magpies will attack you too. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 23:54

See? See, it just it just continues. And by the end of this, you're gonna be like, oh wait, hold on, and there's this other thing.

SPEAKER_04: 24:01

Oh yeah, yeah, no, I I I I yeah, okay. I I could I can see where I've gone wrong. Um but just just just be fine, man. I'm still alive, I'm still living.

SPEAKER_02: 24:13

You're you're making yeah, you're making it happen. I'm a dumb American though, so I don't know. I don't know if I'd I'd survive.

SPEAKER_04: 24:20

You'll be fine. The the thing that'll probably kill you the most is cancer because we have horrible sun here. Yeah. Yeah. Sun will kill you. Quite sad actually. Yeah, totally. Sad. But no, we do deal with death kind of in a sense of seriousness, but we also don't really there's no kind of stigma around it, but we just kind of use a lot of humor around it. It's like if you're going to mention it, it'll be in a funny, humorous way, like depending on who you're with. It it's just very kind of like, oh, okay, well, someone's dead. That's either really sad or it's like oh okay, and then you move on with your day, you don't really think about it twice. Yeah. For some people, I work the opposite way, just for clarification. I see that that's uh that is it's a culture here. Yeah, I definitely have seen it, yeah. But differently, so Colombia works a little bit differently, and it is kind of like Mexico in the sense that like it it is very spiritual, like we were part of the Inca Empire at some point. We've had a lot of deaths, a lot of like it it is a different world, it is a third world country, we've dealt with a lot of slavery, you know, and we only really gained independence in the 1900s, I think it was, if I'm not mistaken, or like the late 1800s, if anything. And it it's it's crazy, and death there is very it's a very serious topic. Um you don't really mention it, but it's like a very heavy thing. You know, a lot of people believe in it, it's Christianity is like one of the main and Catholicism main kind of dominating religion. People definitely believe in spirits, superstition, that kind of thing. And so death is treated with a lot of grace, it is treated very quietly, very sympathetically, but at the same time, you do kind of mourn differently. A lot of times you'll see mourning happening with a party. It happened recently, actually. I went back there and one of my well, I called him uncle, but one of my cousins had recently passed. Um, and that's okay, due to a condition. I never actually got to fully process his death until I was there with my family. And we were partying before. Then we had the morning session. We said things about him that we loved, we put notes, we did videos, we took photos together, lit candles, and then after that, it was back to partying. It's a celebration of life, yeah, really, like a celebration for him, saying the things that we loved about him, taking that time, and you mourned really, you know, in Australia you might oftentimes mourn alone because it is kind of Western in that way, yeah, where mourning it does happen with people, but people really kind of seclude themselves. I find that especially in Latin cultures, it is the opposite. Everyone comes together and you really you really kind of lean on each other. Yeah, that's not to say that death is talked about a ton. It's there's no stigma around it, but it's just very quiet, very respectful. Yeah. And then when you mourn, you mourn really closely. That that yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:52

Yeah. And not that you're like, oh yeah, I had this this death that happened in Australia, and then you know, this that happened in Colombia, but showing you even said it like straight out of you didn't think you really got to like process and like grieve your uncle's death until you were there in community with other people. And so I think that is the hard thing. You know, I fortunately I haven't had to deal with much death. I've you know lost three of my four grandparents, which is one of those things where I don't want to say it's not sad, right? But it's also like they all died 70s and 80s, you know, and so it's like that's kind of what you expect, right? Like that's that's what's gonna happen, you know. If if if things go your way, you'll live to be 70 or 80. And if you're really fortunate, you'll live longer. And you know, who knows? I don't know. I go back and forth on whether we're gonna live longer or shorter, like if our lifespans are actually decreasing now with all the the horrible things going on in the world. But I guess most of what I'm saying is from talking to people and and thinking about grieving, it's like it is a very unfortunate thing that in in this westernized culture or whatever, because it's I don't necessarily know if it's we're portraying ourselves to be strong or whatever it is, but this this individualized grieving, which can be really hard on people because you don't want to show weakness, you don't want to whatever you don't want to show, and then you just kind of have this thing that you're dealing with and and not doing it in community. Whereas you're talking like, oh yeah, I was able to like actually process this when I was with my family and we were able to celebrate and have these amazing moments. Like, I'll always remember with my grandpa, my mom's dad, and you know, it was my cousins and my grandma and my mom and my uncle, and we were just like all sitting around his bed, you know, as he's as he's dying. And similar thing that you're talking about, like sharing stories about him and and hearing stories from my grandma that, you know, I had never heard about him, never known about him. And we were drinking whiskey because he loved whiskey and just having this amazing. Experience as a family. And when my grandpa died on my dad's side, my dad and him had kind of a more challenging relationship. So we this kind of sounds bad, but we didn't necessarily spend a ton of time talking about him. But his mom, who I knew, my great grandma, she was an amazing woman, just like total badass, just kind of like one of those like women that like pushed the boundaries in a time where that was not something that you did. And we just spent so much time after my grandpa's funeral talking about her because she was such an important figure from in my dad's life. And it's those things that are getting lost, those connections with family and this communal grieving when we don't do it together, you know, in this very I'm gonna say in this very individualized society culture, whatever you want to call it, we internalize, we hold it in, and eventually that manifests in really bad ways. And so I love that you're able to give those two perspectives on two different cultures and how you balance that out. And so you haven't necessarily shared anything, and I'm I'm not trying to like get you to share anything, but you've already kind of said that you do things differently than than most Australians do. And so yeah, you kind of are bringing that, and hopefully I I'm like 90% sure I did not write it down. You said Columbia, right? I don't want to keep on saying the wrong No, you're you're right. And you're bringing kind of that influence in a little bit.

SPEAKER_04: 31:32

Definitely. It's it's it's uh they're two different, very different cultures, and they work kind of it's it's like they're the same for opposite things. They the culture in Colombia it's so individualized for things like masculinity and mental health, which are not widespread, but with death and family, like those family is the most important thing, which is why death is such an important thing. And I suppose that in kind of individualized cultures, as you said, which is primarily seen as Western, um it's a very you take care of it on your own because the values of community are so much lesser because there is this idea of me, myself, and I and this kind it's a sense of self-preservation in a way, or just a sense of individualism that makes it that makes it impossible for you to really connect with people in in this kind of way. Yeah. But that strays a a little bit away from the topic of death. So um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:42

Um it's related. You know, all the all that's it. It's related, but yeah, all that comes back and makes sense in and in the final cut of the of the call. I just want to say that I'm so thankful that you're willing to do this. It was obviously a little bit of a challenge to get it scheduled, but not really anything super crazy, but just me for some reason messing up the time zones. Like I think I messed it up like seven or eight times, and at one point was putting you 39 hours ahead of me, which is insane.

SPEAKER_04: 33:13

Yeah. Um so yeah, I was I was very, very confused to see you put us on different days, and I was like, that does not make sense.

SPEAKER_02: 33:22

Yeah. But yeah, let me just not not my not my finest moment. Um, especially like I told you, like as a as a math major in college, like not really doing a great job at my 15-hour time conversion. But I want to thank you for bearing with me through that and also just taking the time to have this call. I am gonna ask you one last question before we kind of wrap up. And if you don't have anything, it's fine. But I don't know, I just feel like you've presented things so beautifully. And so I'm curious if maybe you have like a final message. I've never asked anybody this, and there's definitely a couple people who have been like, hey, can I say one last thing? And then they spew off something that's amazingly beautiful. But I'm just curious if you have any like final things that you like want to share.

SPEAKER_04: 34:06

Yeah, I do. I think that whatever happens, what I personally think that I want to happen when I die, is I want to return to the universe. I just want to sprinkle over my the you know, essence into stardust, if you will. And it's the fact that death we make it seem so kind of like death is this permanent thing when it's not and we are alive in so many ways through the people that we love. We are always alive because we give them you know each other. We we we give ourselves into other people and they pick up on what we do, what we put out, and vice versa. And in that way, in that way, you'll all there'll always be a part of you that's alive. Always, always. We are all just bits and pieces of love in the universe, and it's still us, even when it's scattered. It's still us. So yeah, that that that's my last message.

SPEAKER_02: 35:15

That was beautiful. Thank you for thank you for sharing that. And again, thank you for doing this. I'm so glad that we were able to to have this conversation. You're probably headed to bed and I'm headed to start my day, which is which is wild, but thank you again so much. And we'll definitely have to stay in touch. Um, because yeah, I just love this conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 35:35

Me too, me too. It was it was absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_02: 35:40

Yeah, and I hope you have well, I was gonna say, I o I usually end it with, I hope you have a good rest of your day. I hope you have a good sleep, I guess, is what I should say. And yeah, take care.

SPEAKER_04: 35:50

Thank you, thank you. Yes, have have a great day. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_02: 35:54

All right, bye.

SPEAKER_04: 35:55

Um yes, take care. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02: 35:58

I love how she closed out the call. We return to the universe, scattered like stardust, but still us. It's such a simple image, but it holds a lot. The idea that we keep living through what we've given, the love we've shared, the energy we've left behind, the small pieces of ourselves that other people carry forward. I think about how different cultures find ways to express that. Some through laughter, others through ritual, and sometimes just through remembering. However, we do it, maybe that's what keeps us from disappearing completely. I'll catch you all in a couple weeks. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Call 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Another way to support the podcast is through When We Dietalks Plus. Members not only get early access to episodes, but also every Saturday contemplation. Short guided reflections to help you pause and sit with these questions in your own life. And of course, sharing the podcast with friends or leaving a review goes a long way too. Until next time, have a good life.

SPEAKER_00: 37:26

So I've been thinking a lot about death lately, and three sort of concepts come to mind. I recently had someone very close to me, essentially my my brother and best friend, who's the same age as me, commit suicide. And we've grown up together. He knew me very well. I knew him very well. And it was really it's really hard to explain, but it was almost like he he was my twin. And so losing him has put a lot of things into perspective, especially when regarding suicide and belonging in this world. But I I was having this thought recently about being born alone and dying alone. And it made me realize that I think the fear of death is that we lose our community when we're gone. We spend our life building communities. We don't know what came before us when we were born. But when we die, we have this repertoire of people and interactions and experiences that are too precious for us to let go of. So the thought of whatever that means in the afterlife of leaving behind is almost unbearable to think about. And as I'm thinking about death and this journey and and energy, I do believe that that we leave energy when we die. But where does that energy go of our soul? That's kind of the the question, right? And if we're meant to start this battle alone, like who are we on the other side of this? What is building look on the other side of that? Or is there even building? Are we just being? And we spend a lot of our life building things and creating things, but the also the thought of just being can be really hard to imagine. I've also experienced a lot of death in my life. So I think I have a little bit of different perspective and understanding how to grieve and and thinking about it. Um I was really young when I lost four of my grandparents. Um, within I think it was four years of each other. And not knowing how to to grieve, it definitely put again that aloneness into perspective of of what's after.