#36 - Is This a Free Therapy Session?!

This week’s caller is a psychotherapist whose first brush with mortality came early—at just six years old, when her father was struck in the head by a baseball. He survived, but not as the same man. That experience became the quiet force behind a lifelong curiosity about loss, consciousness, and the fragile line between who we are and who we were.

What begins as a conversation about death unfolds into an exploration of Buddhism, the bardos, psychedelics, and the ways grief lives in the body long after words run out. Together, we look at how facing death can soften the grip of perfectionism, reshape purpose, and turn the so-called “midlife crisis” into something closer to a midlife awakening.

It’s an open, grounded look at how spiritual practice, somatic work, and self-inquiry can help loosen our attachment to certainty—and how doing so might just make life feel more vivid.

If you’ve ever wondered how to live before it’s too late, this one’s worth the listen. Share it with a friend who needs a nudge, follow for more conversations like this, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Book Recommendation: How We Live Is How We Die by Pema Chödrön

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

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Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 6:15 Why Talk About Death
• 9:40 Childhood Trauma Shapes A Path
• 12:00 Quick Host Intro And Book Picks
• 13:26 What Happens When We Die
• 17:34 Openness, Buddhism, And Possibility
• 19:34 Experiences That Form Belief
• 21:39 Grief, Therapy, And Psychedelics
• 24:54 Nonattachment And Ongoing Bonds
• 27:04 Thought Work Meets Somatic Healing
• 31:20 Facing Death Lowers Anxiety
• 34:14 Death As Motivation
• 38:08 Midlife Awakening Over Perfection

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 6:15

Hello. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_04: 6:17

I'm doing well, Zach. How are you?

SPEAKER_00: 6:19

I'm good. I almost did something that I've never done on the show, and I almost called the wrong phone number. And so I could just jump into this conversation and this person would be like, What are you talking about? So I'm glad that I got the right person.

SPEAKER_04: 6:32

I'm glad too.

SPEAKER_00: 6:34

How's your day going?

SPEAKER_04: 6:35

It's good. It's good. I just wrapped up with my last client about an hour ago.

SPEAKER_00: 6:39

So nice. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Well, I'm doing okay. My old dog, who I've talked about on the show before, he had another seizure yesterday. So that was not ideal. Definitely. This is the second one that he's had. So it was way less terrifying than the first one. It was like, okay, he's having a seizure. Okay, I need to get they gave me some medicine to give him if he's having a seizure. And so I was like, okay, gotta get that medicine. Got to make sure, you know, I kind of had the checklist this time versus the first time it was just like sheer panic of like, I don't know what's going on. So it's been a little chaotic, but yeah, I'm glad that we are able to get on the phone. I had to cancel my call yesterday because I was just like, I I can't do this right now. Today I'm feeling better. So excited to do this.

SPEAKER_03: 7:25

Yeah. Oh, well, I'm so sorry to hear. And um, yeah, well, it's I mean, how um I don't want to say synchronistic, but just like this experience woven right into this work that you're doing with death.

SPEAKER_04: 7:38

And yeah, it's yeah, it's an interesting path.

SPEAKER_00: 7:42

Yeah, it always feels weird to say, but like a huge part of this project was preparing for the future of my dog and just knowing that time was coming and it was like, oh, I don't know if I've mentally prepared for this, and not that I necessarily think that you can fully mentally prepare for loss, but just kind of trying to wrap my head around it. So yeah, it it's so interwoven into this. But the listeners definitely won't want to know more about me. They already know too much about me. We're here to talk about you and hear about your stories. Maybe we can just start off with you can let me know why you even wanted to do a talk about death, something that people avoid.

SPEAKER_03: 8:18

Yeah, I know. What an what a unique topic that people don't often jump at the chance to talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

Totally.

SPEAKER_03: 8:26

So I have uh a unique and I would even say deep fascination with death that really started pretty early on in my life. I'll give you the short, the short version. Um we'll probably come back to it later. Yeah, we could definitely come back. So, you know, when I was six years old, my father was playing baseball for a recreational team with his work, and they weren't supposed to be playing ball that day. It was raining and the pitcher was out. And so my dad stepped in as the pitcher. So it was raining that we weren't supposed to play, and he wasn't supposed to pitch kind of all these auspicious elements that weren't really supposed to happen, but nonetheless, it happened. And so he pitched and it was a pop-up fly. And what happened was the ball came down and and struck him on the left side of the head, which is if you're familiar with the brain and psychology, it's uh all of your language, uh, your verbal area, right, for speaking. So long story short, they took him to the hospital and brought him into surgery and had to do brain surgery, gave him a 50-50 chance to live. And when he came out about two months later, after being in a coma for two months after the surgery, that's when we realized just how impactful the the injury was. So he he came out of that coma and he was kind of a completely different person. He was 40 when it happened, and he was kind of like a child sort of state overnight. He couldn't talk, he couldn't walk, he had to kind of relearn everything. So he didn't die, but he he metaphorically died in that he was a totally different human being. So I was six when this happened, and I'm, you know, seeing and observing and very, very early on, right? That's that's a very impressional time in our psychological development.

SPEAKER_02: 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:19

So I'm watching this and really seeing at first hand the possibility for for loss and for change. And so it really brought me onto my path to to eventually becoming a psychotherapist because I was so fascinated with this idea that bad things could happen to good people. Yeah, bad things could happen at any time, and life can change in an instant. And it really just put me in awareness of the preciousness of life. And I think it really brought me into sort of face to face with death in a way.

SPEAKER_02: 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:58

Even though he didn't physically die, right? It's more of an still of a death block over the course of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:05

Wow, that is wild. So I am super excited to dive into this story because like I I was already like, oh my gosh, I have all these questions I want to ask. But I was like, hold on, hold on. Let's get through the intro part and then you can dive in, Zach. So I'm gonna pause for a second and bring it back so we can get to know you a little bit very briefly, and then we can dive back into the conversation. And so maybe just to kind of get to know you a little bit, it doesn't have to be super specific, but maybe like city and state of where you're calling from, and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_03: 11:40

Oh, gosh, I have so many. So I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I'm actually I'm a dual citizen. I'm originally from just outside of Toronto, Ontario. So I'm a Canadian slash American. And favorite book I am gonna go with, because this is actually really appropriate for our theme. Emma Shodron's How We Live is How We Die. That is really a book that's been greatly influential in the last couple of years and everything to do with Buddhism.

SPEAKER_00: 12:13

People are gonna get sick of me saying this too, but I'm like, that is on my list. I'm my I should clarify because I say this all the time. It's like, it's on my list. My list is like 300 books. So it's it's a big list. So every time someone recommends a book, I'm like, oh yeah, that's that's on my list. And so I say this all the time too. I'm gonna move it higher up on my list now and hopefully I'll read it.

SPEAKER_04: 12:36

Move to the number one slot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:40

Until I talk to someone else in a couple days or whenever it is, and it's like, oh shoot. And then you know it just it's a constant shuffle. But I've heard such fantastic things about that book.

SPEAKER_03: 12:50

It's one of those I couldn't put it down and just wanted it to go on forever.

SPEAKER_00: 12:55

So yeah. Well, thank you for that. I'm like I said, I'm gonna add it to my list. I'll read it soon and and I'll text you once I read it and be like, oh, I finally did it. And hopefully that'll be let's say let's hope that's before the end of the year.

SPEAKER_04: 13:08

Yeah, I know for sure. Yeah, you get you'll get to it when you get to it, what's meant to be, right?

SPEAKER_00: 13:13

Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you for that. And now, like I said, I'm super, super excited to get into this conversation because I think we're gonna go some really fun places. Again, weird to say fun, but I'm gonna go with it and and not really question it too much. So we'll start with the big question of what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_03: 13:30

Ooh, this is a juicy one. Well, let me begin with I believe that death is not the end, and that though our body physically dies, our consciousness does not. Our spirit goes on and it goes on in some other form, some other kind of nature, right? Whether we kind of become one with the universe and dissipate into stardust or become one with um the cosmos or or nature, but weaving in a Buddhist perspective of death, which holds this idea, right? That death is not the end, it's a transition of consciousness, yeah, and that we actually just continue on to perhaps another life or another another cycle of life, right? Yes. And this idea that, you know, Kamma talks about how we live is how we die. So how we perceive and experience ourselves, whatever we're working through in this lifetime, whatever is sort of left, let's call it unresolved at the end of our life, we may carry that into the next lifetime, but we also have an opportunity through what's called the Bardos, the phases of the cycles after death, to potentially continue to clear out what we haven't been able to address in this lifetime. So, in summary, I think that I can possibly come back into another life cycle. And that doesn't mean we come back as a human, right? We could come back as an animal, an insect, a tree. That's sort of dependent on, again, sort of I think what we're working through with our consciousness in this lifetime. So there's a sense that brings me some comfort when I think about death in imagining that there is some other universe where our solar spirit is until eventually it's time to return back here or or perhaps even somewhere else again.

SPEAKER_00: 15:18

Yeah, I don't know why I had this realization right now, or just thought what happens if we like turn up as quote unquote another being like on another planet.

SPEAKER_03: 15:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 15:27

I don't know. Right. Um, but I think it's fascinating to think about this stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 15:31

I do too, and I'm open to that. You know, I mean, there's so many theories, right? And I know there's a lot of we could call them crazy theories out there, and my mind is just open because I've had so many interesting experiences through many varieties of processes that I'm just open to anything. Like we the reality is we don't we don't know these are concepts, these are theories, but we also know with something like Buddhism, is this is not a new concept, right? This has been around for centuries. So we're not just going off of, you know, some individual person coming up with this new theory in sort of 2025. It's been around for a really long time.

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:09

So yeah, I believe in all possibilities.

SPEAKER_00: 16:12

I think that's a good way to go about it. I think in some ways that's what I'm trying to do too, is open myself up to, I guess, maybe spirituality. I don't exactly know the right word for it, but you know, my background of just no faith growing up, no religion, and basically just thinking that nothing happens. I have started learning a lot about Buddhism, but you know, I haven't read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I know some things about it, I know about the Bardoes, but I don't know the intricate details of it. And it's kind of funny to me that so much of my life over the past couple years has been wrapped around exploring death. And then as I'm actually diving into one of the world religions, I actually haven't even gotten into that. I'm interested to hear more about that. But there's so many ways I want to go with this because you've set the table in a very interesting way, because I already feel like we could talk for like four hours and just be scratching the surface because it's it seems like you definitely have a good understanding of Buddhism. And so I would love to go down that rabbit hole. But I think the more interesting thing is you kind of mentioned I didn't jot down exactly how you phrased it, but you basically said you've had a bunch of experiences in your life, or maybe lives, maybe lives, um, but you've had a lot of experiences in your life that have kind of shaped your beliefs around death. And so I'm I'm curious if you want to kind of maybe go that direction.

SPEAKER_03: 17:37

Yeah, for sure. We can we can, I think to go back to the beginning, I mean, the the primary experience in shaping my relationship with death and curiosity about death is really this experience with my father's accident. And then what it led me to. And I can talk about that and kind of because what happened after that is so I was six and really, I think when I was in my mid-teens, I really started to struggle with mental health. Although I really wasn't quite aware of it at the time. I couldn't identify that or know that. But post-university, that's when it really kicked in. When I had graduated, all my friends had this plan. They were going to grad school, they had a job lined up, and I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I kind of felt like I was in this bardo of feeling lost and not knowing where I belonged and what my path was. And so, you know, I kind of went on a couple of different adventures and voyages and which I'm already gonna say, you went thing you went the smart route, I feel.

SPEAKER_00: 18:40

I feel like we're all told that we're supposed to have it figured out and like know what we want to do when we're going into college and you like study that thing, and then you're gonna go work a job and do that for the rest of your life. I think that is like such a terrible, I don't know, con that we've all been told that I think you went, I I'm envious of the route that you went on. So sorry to cut you off, but I just wanted to say I think I think you went the smart route.

SPEAKER_03: 19:06

Well, yeah, you know what it is? I think that I was so in touch with let's call it my soul, my spirit, like that higher consciousness that I looked around at people who didn't seem happy or who were struggling and suffering in following that traditional path. I was hell-bent on finding something that resonated with my heart. But you're right, because we're conditioned to do what we think we're supposed to do, right? According to culture and our family, because it's a also a a need to belong and to fit in and to feel like we we matter in some way. So yeah, and then we hit midlife and we have you know a midlife crisis, or I call it a midlife awakening, and then we start to go on that the that other path that you're talking about. I love that you call it that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

What happened because I've been the midlife awakening. Because I've been floating that a little, that's what I have I think I've mentioned on here maybe once or twice, but I think midlife crisis is terrible. And then I've also heard Brene Brown say the midlife unraveling. And I think that kind of a little bit, but it also still kind of has this kind of negative connotation. And I do think like it can be incredibly negative and it's not an easy time of your life. And so, yeah, of course it can be and feel negative, but there's such an opportunity for growth and to actually move into what you're really meant to be doing. Again, sorry for cutting you off. I just love that you use that phrase.

SPEAKER_03: 20:30

No, that's exactly it. It's an opportunity, I love how you said it's I believe that too. It's an opportunity to actually discover ourselves.

SPEAKER_02: 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 20:38

To discover our true self.

SPEAKER_02: 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 20:40

Right. Which is what Buddhism is all about. It's like you you get to be free and sort of be released into that state of nirvana once you have a awakened into the true unconditional nature of mind.

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 20:55

So the accident really put me on that path in terms of seeking and longing and desiring and trying to figure out, you know, who I was, what I wanted to be. But beyond that, what I realized in my early 30s was that I was also really still struggling with a lot of grief from that early childhood loss. And so that going on that journey and going into about 10 years of sort of deep trauma-informed therapeutic work with various professionals, that's what really brought me into deeper connection with death. And I a good place to start would be really psychedelics. And I I say that gently. I know there's a lot of it's a very complex, layered. Also, I want to say, really like a hot a hot thing right now. And I'm, you know, I really, really track that as a trend. But for me, it was like I found that after so many years of talk therapy and even somatic therapy and some EMDR, which is a more body approach to trauma. But I found it in a place where I was really stuck in my grief. And it really helped me to get in touch and contact with things I had read in books, like Journey of Souls, Michael, Michael Newton's Journey of Souls, this idea of life beyond death, that we go on, the spirit goes on. And it was, it was in some of these experiences in that work that I was able to access not just some beautiful vision, but a physical sense, a feeling in my body that I would be connected beyond this life. And that even when, you know, I would lose my dad eventually one day, that there would still still always be that bond and connection. So it was this understanding, not at a cognitive level, but at a deep physical, somatic body feeling state, knowing that this is not the end.

SPEAKER_02: 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:00

And that when I'm not operating in that way, that I'm so attached to everything, even my grief. I was so attached to my grief in a sense, yeah, that life really does go beyond this one. And just because people die or have an accident doesn't mean we have to be separated from them.

SPEAKER_00: 23:20

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

And I can talk more about that because that sounds a little bit esoteric.

SPEAKER_00: 23:25

But um I I feel like this one I can just like sit back and listen and be like, all right, go for it. I think it's it's also, you know, especially with my interest in Buddhism, it's like you're also speaking a familiar language to me. And probably is different for some of the listeners and maybe all the listeners or a majority of listeners, but like attachment and stuff like that, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, this is definitely stuff that I've been thinking a lot about in my life and how that relates to everything. And so yeah, I've I I'm continue on if you if you want. I can ask a question, but I'm loving where this is heading.

SPEAKER_03: 23:59

Well, I think so. I'll kind of continue on with that, Fred. Um, so this idea that let me back up for a minute. So so I'm a I'm a licensed therapist. I've been in practice for over 10 years now, but I also spent again being the seeker, this you know, curious person who wants to really know the truth and what life's about and all these big questions, right? Where do we go after we die? What's the meaning of life? Back in my early 30s, I spent five years working for a very well-known, let's call her spiritual teacher named Byron Katie.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 24:34

And Byron Katie teaches a lot. She it's kind of like spiritual CBT, if you know anything about CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Yes. Your thoughts are the cause of your suffering.

SPEAKER_01: 24:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 24:44

And so Katie had her own version or formula of that, and it helped me to deepen my understanding of how my thoughts could be causing my suffering. In somatic-based or trauma-informed therapy, we know that the thoughts are only one piece, but we also have to include the body because that's where these traumatic memories are stored. And so we can't just change our thoughts to feel better. We need to work with both mind and body. We can't separate them.

SPEAKER_02: 25:08

Shocking.

SPEAKER_03: 25:09

Right, right. Such a what a new concept, right? Not at all. And so, through I think that experience and practice with working for and with KD, working with the mind, and then my doing my clinical hours to become licensed, I really got to understand using body, mind, and spirit approach in challenging ourselves beyond these core beliefs that we hold, right? If I'm holding a belief that nothing happens after I die, and that causes a lot of pain and suffering or anxiety in my life, then I may want to examine that thought, right? Because the reality is we don't know, right?

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

Is this a free therapy session right now?

SPEAKER_03: 25:55

You know, it's probably really hard for me not to go to right. It's I mean, it's always with me.

SPEAKER_00: 26:01

Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_03: 26:02

But really, like if we stay with that, we don't know, right? We don't know. But if I'm open to a different possibility, yeah, then I can sort of like reduce my suffering even a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 26:15

Yeah. I think that's also like where I'm at with this process. It's like opening up to new possibilities and maybe holding that in one hand. And then in the other, also saying, it can still be nothingness. That can still be your belief, but you've got to have some acceptance around that. You've got to figure out how to not have this fear, anxiety, and attachment to nothingness. And there's a million different ways to tackle that too. But I I I'm right with you of the seed of a lot of fear in my life, which then affects how I live my life. Whether you really want to admit it or not, I have noticed by thinking about death and talking about death, I was just talking, I made a joke just a little bit earlier. I was in a little text group with my dad and a buddy of ours, and they were talking about something, and I was like, oh, you know, this would be a good thing to put in my dad's will. And our friend like freaked out, and he's like, wow, you guys are being so morbid, and this and that. And I'm like, dude, that's gotta happen. Like, and it's just that that fear and anxiety comes up into a lot of people, and I was doing it too, just shoving it down and saying, nope, don't, not gonna deal with it now, because it's not happening right now. And to your point of what you spoke about with your dad, it doesn't necessarily even have to be a quote unquote full death or whatever we want to call it. Accidents happen all the time. Freak accidents happen.

SPEAKER_01: 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:38

And that could be result in a death, or it could result in brain trauma, or it could result in a million different things that change how you look at life.

SPEAKER_03: 27:48

Right, right. And so when you expose yourself to the thing you're afraid of, it becomes less scary.

SPEAKER_02: 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:54

And that's what we don't do in this culture. We don't talk about death. And then we wonder why so many people have so much anxiety. You know, it's because deep down inside our our psyche, our soul knows that we're gonna have to face that. And so at midlife, you know, hence the midlife awakening. Yeah, it's like, oh, now I'm aware that I'm closer to death and birth. And something in me is going, Are you gonna really live? Are you gonna are you gonna really go for what you want?

SPEAKER_02: 28:18

Totally.

SPEAKER_03: 28:19

Because what do you have to lose at this point?

SPEAKER_00: 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 28:22

Like death is coming for you.

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna win at at some point.

SPEAKER_03: 28:27

Yeah. It's I find I've been thinking about this concept a lot the last couple weeks. Uh, my mom has had a recent what we think is possibly likely cancer. Um I'm sorry. Scare diagnosis. It's think here, yeah. It's again putting me really in touch with the idea of death and what happens when we die. And her and I, we have a lot of open conversations about this. Like she's really into it too. Like, okay, so you know, give me some signs, you know, when you're on the other side, so I know. But it's sort of I have interestingly enough, though I have been feeling waves of grief and fear and worry, because I I know my mind very well and I use a lot of mindfulness and meditation in my day-to-day life to help me. I've I've also been noticing that I have felt oddly really motivated lately. And I can't help but to think that it's a direct correlation to like when we know when we're faced with a diagnosis, right? And it's not even mine, it's yeah, you know, it's my mom's. But it's like we all know it's not gonna happen, but all of a sudden it's you're told, or someone let's say someone's told you have 90 days to live, all of a sudden, I mean that could go many ways, but it's like, whoa, now I wanna live.

SPEAKER_00: 29:48

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03: 29:49

So I've been thinking about just death like death and being a motivator, if uh as strange as that sounds, but it doesn't sound strange to me because I feel like yeah, ultimately at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00: 30:00

With this project, I think that's what I'm realizing the most is, you know, I I definitely want to work out my feelings around death. But the true realization that I've had on this journey is it's allowed me to look at life differently and say, all right, you know, this is your chance. This is your opportunity. So, like, why are you so afraid of failing or getting rejected, or all these like constructs that we put on ourselves when it's like, you're gonna die. And so I would say you are speaking my exact language because I just had my anniversary episode, and one of the things that I said in there, and I've said it privately, but I said it more vocally there. And to use the phrase that I hate that I we've already talked about, I want to force people into a midlife crisis. That's what I want this project to do, is to like wake people up, you know, and so it's much I like I like midlife awakening better, but I want to wake people up to the fact that this is gonna happen. And yeah, you know, I've had people say, you know, I'm I'm almost 38. And so this started probably around 35. And I've had people be like, you're too young to have a midlife crisis. It's it's closer to 50. And I'm like, well, number one, I don't know if you're doing the math right there.

SPEAKER_04: 31:23

Right, right. Even if right is until 100.

SPEAKER_00: 31:25

Yeah. Even if it is, you know, okay, you know, we're gonna leave the math out, but 50 is when you ha have a midlife crisis. I'd much rather have it at 35. I just gained 15 years. Potentially, I could die in the in those 15 years. It sounds like you had yours at about like 12, 13. So you're you're a lot ahead of me.

SPEAKER_03: 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:47

Um, but yeah, it's so important.

SPEAKER_03: 31:49

It is, and it's normal. Like midlife can happen. I mean, it's different it, you know, we can't pinpoint it to an exact age, and I think it depends on that person's path, their journey, their consciousness. Um, and I think it's normal for it to start, I mean, especially with the world and the state of what's going on these days, yeah. You know, as early as the twenties and early 30s, because there's so much uncertainty. Yeah. Like we just don't know what the world looks like.

SPEAKER_02: 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 32:16

And it looks so grim, you know, in so many ways. So I really love what you said about like I I almost want to say like your mission, it sounds like your mission is to wake people up. Yes, you know, because I feel kind of similar to, you know, we talked briefly about this book I've been writing, and that's kind of the purpose of this book. And it's like, yeah, let's wake up and realize that we're gonna die. And how can we utilize even our painful experience to actually be really present in life and not make it wrong or bad or a problem, even though it's uncomfortable and scary, but have it actually be part of our awakening.

SPEAKER_00: 33:00

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I love that you you wrote the book. You did it. We had talked about before, you know, at the end of the call, we'll stay on and chat a little bit after. I do that with basically everybody, if they remember. Sometimes people just hang up and it's like, okay, all right. I can't tell it's not necessarily like every single person, but I've had quite a few people who have been like, you know, I'm thinking about writing a book about my grief, or I'm thinking about starting a project, or I'm thinking about doing this. And I'm like, just do it. Just start. Right. And I think that's the other thing with my entire life plagued by perfectionism. And that has always held me back. And I think that's another one where I'm like, I'm done trying to be perfect, and that's maybe more than just this death journey that has taught me that. But with this, I could spend all the time trying to make everything perfect and finding the right people and this and that. And it was just like, I just have to start. And this isn't even the format that it was when I started. I was interviewing friends and stuff. And then I found this kind of anonymous format, and it was like, oh, this is really cool. I'm connecting with strangers. I have no idea where the conversation's gonna go. And if I would have let my perfection get in the way, I probably wouldn't have ever started because oh, it needs to be perfect when I put it out to the world. It's like, just start, just start writing, just start whatever. Just put pen to paper. You can always go back because nobody's gonna really see it.

SPEAKER_03: 34:32

It's it's true. Yeah, and I love what you said about just just like the world, what I think the world wants from us is our our gifts in the most raw form. They don't have to be perfect, but trust me, I talk to people all day long, like about their problems, and everyone feels this. Everyone is thinking this, you know, this these conversations about you know suffering and loss, and like it's very real. And the more we talk about it and engage our, you know, gift in whatever form it is, right? A book, a podcast, how cool. To me, that's like wow, you're utilizing one of your important gifts to give back to your community. And I think like what you said, I'm imagining this gives you probably motivation and excitement, you know, in your life. It's like following that mission.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

Oh, totally. Um and that was lacking before. And I think that's what, you know, to keep bringing the phrase back up, the midlife awakening, like it's opening up to that purpose that, you know, early on, I think, and not saying this is necessarily true for everybody, but I think early on in our lives, a lot of that we kind of are following this path, this plan of what society and culture tells us it's safe, although I don't know how safe the plan is anymore. And you go down that for a bit, and hopefully you wake up and say, wait, hold on, this this doesn't align with who I am, or this doesn't give me value or purpose. And I think there's the other aspect of uh I talk to a friend all the time. He has a pretty, I would say pretty solid state. Well, I don't know if again, I don't know if there's such a thing as a stable job anymore either. But relatively in this world, stable job. And, you know, we kind of talk about, oh yeah, I get to do all this great, you know, I get to travel and do all this great stuff. If that trade-off is worth it, you know, oh, I get to go travel to see all these great places, then you know, maybe that's worth, you know, maybe that's the purpose of it is hey, I'm doing this so I can, you know, go explore and do these things. I just don't think that that's necessarily something that I could do. I'm like, I would much rather not have something stable, which sounds terrifying to say, but I'd much rather not have something stable, but day in and day out be like, I love what I'm doing. Because I feel like the other way I'd just have my soul crushed.

SPEAKER_03: 36:53

That's right. And that's the path of the soul. It's like, I think some people without judgment are just so much more comfortable in that space of the external safety and what that brings for them internally, which makes sense. We do need money to pay our bills and unfortunately, right? Right. It's just kind of a reality, but some of us have a bigger, I think, tolerance or threshold for not being able to tolerate the the mundane, the uncomfortableness of being in that sort of cog-in-the-wheel lifestyle. Like I die there, my soul dies there, you know. My partner, same thing. He's just like, oh my god, I'd rather not. He works a corporate job for 25 years and just couldn't do it anymore. So I think it's so and that's again, that's the gift of midlife because we realize we don't have the luxury to keep doing that. We have to actually start living and following the thread of soul.

SPEAKER_01: 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 37:48

So I get excited when I hear people, I love the stories, you know, when the client comes in, they're like, I've I decided to quit my job. And I'm like, Yeah, you're gonna follow your dream. Because, you know, yeah, the time is limited, and why not now? And yes, maybe we need a plan to do that, of course, to do it wisely. But I get so excited because it feels like people following their hearts versus just following the expectation.

SPEAKER_02: 38:13

Yeah, the norm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 38:14

The norm. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:18

Well, this is so strange. I feel like this has been such a wonderful conversation. I don't want it to go on for too long. And so I think I'm gonna wrap it up here, but I think I'm also gonna tease, and we actually haven't really talked about this at all, but there's probably more coming from this conversation between the two of us. And so I think I'll probably just say that because I still feel like there's so much that we can talk about. And so I think maybe I'll just tease that to the audience that there's very likely more coming and more conversations between the two of us, if that's if you think that's fair to say.

SPEAKER_04: 38:53

Oh, yeah, it sounds fun. It's like, like I said, deep, deep, meaningful conversation. That's what I live for. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00: 39:00

Yeah, I didn't want to, I didn't want to like say something that you're like, no, that doesn't sound right. But yeah, I just yeah, because I like I said, I I think we could probably go on for another like two, three, four hours and just be like, oh yeah, that was great. So yeah, I think I'll wrap it up here for now. I would say such an interesting conversation because I almost thought, you know, we started out and I thought we were gonna go very big picture, almost maybe from like the Buddhism perspective. And then we kind of were like, okay, you know what, we're gonna talk about your experiences and still ended up talking about all these big picture things, which I find so fascinating. I also love that it just it sounds like we have very similar thought processes or just ways of looking at the world. So I mean, it's always, it's always lovely to talk to someone where it's like, oh, cool, I'm not crazy. Or if I am crazy, there's at least one more of me. So I'm you know, at least I'm crazy and not alone. But yeah, I just wanted to say it was such a fantastic conversation. I enjoyed every minute of it.

SPEAKER_03: 40:03

Oh, well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. It was um, yeah, when I when I I stumbled across your information somewhere, I think I was on LinkedIn. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. Let's talk about that. So, no, you're not crazy, you're you're not you're certainly not alone. And thank you so much for for having me. It was such a joy, such a fun time.

SPEAKER_00: 40:23

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, like like I alluded to, I think there's more coming soon. So thank you again, and I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_04: 40:31

Amazing. Thanks so much, Zach. You too.

SPEAKER_00: 40:33

All right, bye.