#40 - Four Deaths and a God Named George

What if your afterlife looks exactly like what you expect to find? That question sits at the center of this conversation with our caller who has died more than once and come back with stories that challenge the script many of us inherit about death. She begins with a fire-breathing accident that leads to severe burns, an awake surgery, and a coma where there is no tunnel of light—only darkness without walls, filled with taunting voices. She runs for days inside that void before turning to fight, and everything changes.

What follows is survival without a roadmap. The medical system saves her life but offers little help for the trauma that comes after—the nightmares, the identity whiplash, the sense of not quite being back. Years later in Costa Rica, another threshold appears: the sun opens, her mother steps through it, and tells her it’s not time. More recently, a 911 dispatcher’s voice pulls her back from the tunnel once again, and the medical truth finally catches up—severe deficiencies, fibroids, numbers hanging by a thread.

Threaded through all of this is a larger belief: that experience, even at the edge of life, is shaped by the mind we bring with us. Drawing from Buddhism, Taoism, and her own spiritual practice, she speaks about agency in death, the difference between organized religion and ways of life that protect free will, and the permission to borrow what works without forcing a label. And yes, there’s humor. Lots of it. It’s how fear loosens its grip. The conversation ends not in dread, but longing for ancient places, altered states, and a way of talking about death that makes life feel more livable.

Book Recommendation: The Child Thief by Brom

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube. New here or unsure where to begin?

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Chapters

• 1:09 Sponsored by Woven Word Press
• 1:43 Episode Intro
• 5:01 The Call Begins
• 9:16 The First Time (and Second)
• 11:32 Fire Breathing Accident
• 20:25 Snakes On A Gurney
• 24:24 The Third Time
• 28:00 The Last Time
• 30:29 Spirituality
• 36:53 Final Question
• 41:16 Episode Outro

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 5:47

Hello. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00: 5:49

Fantastic. How are you?

SPEAKER_03: 5:51

I'm good. But I'm also like flustered's not the right word either. But just there's a lot around this project that I'm kind of behind on. And so today's just been one of those days of like trying to catch up on everything, you know. And so it feels like, oh, I gotta get this done, and then I gotta get this done, and then I gotta do a call. And so I just feel like I'm kind of in a million places at once. Maybe scattered is the right word, but I'm gonna be grounded into this call because I'm really excited about it. I've kind of changed the format a little bit of the application process. It used to be just a phone number. And now, as you know, because you applied, I'm asking for maybe just a little snippet of why you want to have the conversation. And and we'll talk about that in a second. But yours was very intriguing. And so I'm very excited to chat with you. And from your phone number, I think you're also located in Portland, like I am. So we're like neighbors or something. So I am very excited to talk to you. I'm gonna put all the other things that I need to get done away and really excited to chat with you.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Okay, I'm excited too. This is fun.

SPEAKER_03: 6:54

Awesome. Well, I've already kind of alluded to a couple of the questions I asked right out of the gate, but we'll start with why you even wanted to have this conversation, why you wanted to talk about death. It's a conversation that a lot of people avoid and don't want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Okay. All right. Short answer I have a very intimate relationship with death. And because of that, I feel like the conversation, especially in the United States, needs to be more often.

SPEAKER_03: 7:22

Yes. Preach or something. I think that's what people, I think that's what people say. Um I'm not I'm not very cool, so I'm already regretting kind of throwing that out there. I'm like, I'm in a hundred percent agreement with you. So we can kind of maybe get to know you a little bit, obviously keeping the anonymity and everything. I kind of already spoiled where you live. You know, you're in Portland as well. So that's one of the questions I asked to kind of get to know you is where you live. But then the other one that I normally ask. Yeah, P Town. And then the other one that I normally ask is what's your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_00: 7:55

Oh, The Child Thief by Braum, because it's the first story I have ever read about Peter Pan being a total douchebag. The Child Thief?

SPEAKER_03: 8:07

Yeah, it's such a dark, dark story. Okay, interesting. I haven't even heard of it. I have become a big reader, and so I love kind of collecting all these random recommendations from people, and I put them into together into a list, and the list is it is becoming kind of a hodgepodge of just very random books, and it's one of my favorite things about the project because it's a question that people don't expect me to ask when we're talking about death. But you were on it. So maybe now we can jump into the bigger conversation and start with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_00: 8:39

It's individual. I can only tell you what happened to me.

SPEAKER_03: 8:43

Which is which is an interesting way of phrasing, which I'm sure you'll you'll explain more about that. But that I love that kind of if the listeners didn't catch that phrasing, which I'm sure they did, that that's a very very subtle way to throw it out there.

SPEAKER_00: 9:00

It is just like having a personal relationship with religion, everything is individual. Okay. So is your deck because it has everything to do with you and no one else. So your death will not look like my death, completely different. The lessons are different, our experiences are different, so they couldn't be the same.

SPEAKER_03: 9:19

I like that. I think the the the easy follow-up question to that is what did your death look like? Or what what has your death looked like?

SPEAKER_00: 9:29

Which one?

SPEAKER_03: 9:31

I think I would like to hear about as many as we can get in, if that's if if you're up for it. But yeah, I I'm like the navigator, I think, or maybe I don't know, I don't know the right metaphor. Um, you're steering the ship, and I'm kind of slowly, you know, direct us ways, but this is obviously a perspective that a lot of people most people don't have. And so I think, yeah, as much as you want to share about it and which ones and or whatever, wherever you want to go with it, um, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_00: 9:57

Okay. All right on. So I will say, we'll talk about the first time that I pass, and that was twice in one sitting. And so I will say for people who are religious, you will have a completely different experience because that is where your belief system is. You're gonna see all the people that you love, and there's gonna be music and angels, it's gonna be beautiful rainbows and unicorns. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_03: 10:22

It sounds pretty great.

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

But that's not for everyone, that is not everyone's experience. However, on this planet, for some reason, we exploit that one myoptic view. That is not what happened to me. Yeah, it was sudden, I wasn't supposed to, and the first roll of it, I expected, you know, the singing and the music. And no, it was complete darkness. I couldn't see in front of my face. Even when I put my hand in front of my face, there was nothing there. There was no floor, there was no ceiling. I physically couldn't see a body even though I knew I had one, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03: 11:03

Yeah. I mean, as much as it can make sense, right? It makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 11:07

Right. So, like imagine yourself in a haunted house that is just a dark place. Yeah. And you have to put your arms out to feel where you're going, and you don't know if things are going to jump up at you or you're going to fall. You have to trust the dark to be safe. And that's kind of what my experience was like. There's these dark things coming after me, calling my name in 12 octaves, which is creepy. They would run around me, laughing at me, laughing at my efforts to get away from them. It was horrific.

SPEAKER_03: 11:38

That sounds horrific. You had me like uh, you know, this project is me kind of exploring my fears and anxieties, and and I'm not, I did not grow up religious or with any kind of religion in my life. And so I was like, Yeah, can uh I maybe I do need to sign up for the rainbows and uh unicorns. Uh, how do how do I do that? Because this uh this darkness thing sounds a lot like what I have felt like happens, and this sounds terrifying.

SPEAKER_00: 12:04

It was it was it was quite terrifying to my understanding to the doctors and nurses that were caring for me. I was in a coma.

SPEAKER_02: 12:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 12:15

I went into a coma by way of accident. So I used to be a fire breather, and um I blew this flame 10 feet out of my face, but it looked like there was a mirror right in front of that flame, and it curved and went into my face and down my throat.

SPEAKER_02: 12:31

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00: 12:32

So I was rushed off to the ambulance to get treatment, which they took me to the nearest hospital. I was in um California at the time visiting, and they forgot to ask my name. They just asked for my consent so they could make sure that I wasn't going my throat was closing, so to make sure that I wasn't gonna die. And they gave me enough drugs to knock down a horse, and yet I was awake for the whole surgery.

SPEAKER_03: 12:55

Whoa, also not something that you want.

SPEAKER_00: 12:58

No, not at all. And I felt everything, I heard their whole conversations, everything. And because of that complication, because of that stress and trauma that put me into a coma. And then I had more complications because I had second degree burns on the top parts of my lungs and my esophagus.

SPEAKER_01: 13:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 13:19

Which is you can hear the scratchiness in my voice, they drop my voice too often. And so I died twice in two settings, both times, 10 minutes. They were going to toe tap me when I came to both times.

SPEAKER_03: 13:31

Whoa. And so I have had another guest on the show who has experience in NDE. I I read a book about it, and so I'm curious about just trying to like flush out and make sure I'm understanding. You mentioned that you were awake, or you know, you you kind of heard everything. I guess the question is like, was that like an out-of-body experience where you were like, oh, I'm kind of like I'm I'm seeing everything? Or you also definitely hear stories of people who were like, Oh, yeah, you know, I was awake during surgery, I was in my body, I just couldn't move, couldn't talk, couldn't do anything. Um, so I don't know. Yep, that so the the the ladder. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:10

I wished I was floating above myself, but no, I was trapped in my bed, and I felt very much like kill Bill. I was thinking my head going, wiggle your big toe, wiggle your big toe, wiggle your big toe. Please, please, please wiggle everything. Yeah, like for everyone to hear me that was screaming, and I started crying on the OR, and I could hear the doctor swear, he's like, Oh crap, she's awake, give her more morphine. And I'm screaming in my head, no, that makes my arms itch. And they did it, and I couldn't scratch. Oh no anything, I was just on fire, and that laid me out.

SPEAKER_03: 14:47

Yeah, that sounds like a terrible experience.

SPEAKER_00: 14:50

It really was. And the worst part when you come out of the case, what do you mean the worst part? Were we already there? They don't no, no, no, that's not the worst part. It's the it's the nightmares after they don't give you therapy for that. Yeah, you're like, oh, it'll just go away, you're fine.

SPEAKER_03: 15:07

Yeah. Well, yeah, because we and I want to stay on this topic, but I think it feeds in here. That is a huge part of the and I think it's more than just the United States, but that is kind of one of the issues with how we treat death is the doctors saved you, right? Not dead, perfect, cool, go on your way. Like death is treated as the enemy, and so as long as we defeat death, then cool, everything else is fine, go your merry way. If it was just the accident and nothing else after that you remembered, I mean, that would be traumatic in and of itself, let alone all the things that happened and that you remembered and experienced during the surgery. Of course, that added, I yeah, I can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_00: 15:53

So much, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 15:54

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00: 15:55

Absolutely. I learned how cavalier doctors are. They think they're these gods, yeah. And they talk about their skills and Oscar points. It's it's alarming.

SPEAKER_03: 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:07

To be the patient and listen to this.

SPEAKER_03: 16:09

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I want to hear about your other stories, but I I I think I have maybe a question that I want to dive into before that, if that's all right. Um so obviously the concept behind this project is exploring what people think happens when we die. And so you said very uh very individualistic, it is unique to person or self or whatever we want to call it. And so you said there are these people who have religion and believe in in heaven and and all this beautiful stuff. So, what does that say about your beliefs? And that this is kind of the experience that you had. And are you okay with that? Is there fear, anxiety around? There's so many questions. So maybe I'll I'll stop rambling and see where you go with it, and then maybe I'll I'll direct from there. But there's a lot of questions here for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 17:01

No, it says nothing about religion and or anything like that, it says everything about my experience and your subconscious and what your subconscious holds on to because my mom died the previous year. Okay, and then I had a few friends die that year before I passed. So there was a lot of sadness already.

SPEAKER_02: 17:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 17:23

And there was a lot of questions with like where is my mom gonna go? You know, what's gonna happen to her energy? Is she gonna do this? Is she gonna do that? And of course, with my friends as well.

SPEAKER_02: 17:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 17:35

If you are deep in sadness, I think that kind of rules your brain a bit.

SPEAKER_03: 17:40

Yeah. Which we've all been through experiences, and I think this is something I talk about a lot too, at least personally with other people. We all have trauma, and there's obviously trauma that's worse than other trauma, but it's also like you said, all of our experiences are owned and we don't really know what other experiences are like. And so it's not really worth comparing. And so I want to say within that, all this loss, you know, that's a different kind of trauma than anything that I've experienced. But I have also been through times in my life where that cloud that's over you, and not the Portland clouds. We know those Portland clouds. The the you know, the like the real sadness and depression and just the heaviness of life.

SPEAKER_00: 18:21

But then I also feel like it was quite a lesson. And I don't know if you've experienced this where the universe, Buddha, God, we'll call him George, whispers to you. We'll call him George.

SPEAKER_03: 18:36

Love that. I love that. Somehow that's gonna end up being the episode that's gonna get worked into the episode title somehow.

SPEAKER_00: 18:43

Have you prayed to George? Yeah. Love that, love that where it comes to you as a whisper, you know. Hey, I don't want to do that, and that's a whisper, it's really soft. Yeah, and then you know, you keep doing that sad thing, and then they yell at you, and it's pretty loud, but you still ignore it, and then they smack you upside the head with the two by four. Yeah, and so this was my smack of a upside my head with a two by four. There were certain signs in my life at that time that I was not paying attention to because I was having such a pity party for myself. So I felt like the first two deaths were lessons, and I definitely won top-notch. And I say it because I was running in I was in a coma nine days. So I was running in my coma, they said, for a good three to four days. My arms and legs were so stiff, they could not get them to relax with all of the drugs they were giving me.

SPEAKER_02: 19:42

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00: 19:43

And it was because I was running, I was running away from all of these dark things, and like batten their hands or whatever limbs it was off of me, trying to get away from them. And then I got tired and I turned around and I said some really ugly things. And the best that I can describe it is, okay, I'm done. And if you're coming after me, I'm taking you to hell with me. Let's go. And that's the polite version.

SPEAKER_03: 20:10

Yeah. You're ready to fight.

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

And once I I was, I was done enough.

SPEAKER_03: 20:15

You tried the flight, you tried the flight, which I which I appreciate as being um a former track athlete. People look at me and I think they would think I'm a fighter. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm fast. I'm getting out of here. So I I that would have been my my plan too, is I'm gonna run. But then you're it sounds like you're braver than me. I don't know if I would have turned around and be like, all right, let's let's duke this out.

SPEAKER_00: 20:38

I I I think I believe my mom. I am crazy. Because in the face of my adversaries or, you know, of danger, I always turn around and go, let's go. But I can't run faster than you. Let's just do this. And when I did that in my coma, those dark things, they kind of sulked back into the dark quietly. And then it became a lot more quiet, like deafening. And then out of nowhere, there was this light above me. It looked like a little star. And I kept falling. And as I was watching it, it was growing. And when it fell, it hit on my thigh. And I woke up on a gurney with snakes all over my legs. Oh God, I thought we were going somewhere better. No, not at all. You had me excited.

SPEAKER_03: 21:30

I was like, okay, phew. All right. Because I snakes are my number one. Not at all. Okay. All right. So now we got snakes on a gurney. Not snakes on a plane. There's a see, there's a title there too.

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

There's a different snakes on a gurney. I watched that. Yeah, I moved the snakes off my legs and stuff, and I stood up. I was wobbling. I still had the hospital gown on and my butts all flapping in the wind and everything. It was quite windy. And I hear the tarp, you know, the little O-ring on the tarp that you put cord or string to. Yeah. And when I lifted up the metal thing, there was a humvee with California plates. And I woke up and scared the shit. Oops. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 22:18

No, you can't. You can curse. It's oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 22:22

You don't need to hold back.

SPEAKER_03: 22:23

No, you're totally fine. Okay. Yeah, you could I should have said that earlier. Um, yeah, you can totally say whatever you want. Okay. I mean, well, I should, I should say, maybe there, you know, there's some things that we probably shouldn't say. But yeah, but I, you know, fuck is totally fine. Okay, good. I was like, I'll curse, I'll curse for you stuff.

unknown: 22:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Oh, you can do my curse machine. Oh, perfect. I that I if that's the stop and you say it.

SPEAKER_03: 22:48

Yeah, if that's uh if that's an actual career path, sign me up, please. I would love that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:56

Oh man. So yeah, yeah. I scared the crap out of the nurse and I couldn't speak, so I'm like trying to talk. I had a trach in, so there's no way that I could mouthing like go get my boyfriend at the time. And that's what I remember. And then three days later, after arguing with doctors, I got to go home. And my first restful night of sleep, I woke up to 9-11. And I didn't really think I was alive for an entire year.

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

Whoa. So did you you kind of felt like you never got out?

unknown: 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:26

Is that what you're saying? Oh my gosh. That is wild. Yeah. That is blowing my mind. What what made you realize in the end that are we still in there? That's my concern some days. Like, am I just dreaming right now? A really shitty dream. Here's the thing that but yeah, what that'll break out.

SPEAKER_00: 23:45

I was hanging with friends and having such a great time. I'm like, oh shit, I gotta call my mom. She's gonna really love this. And they all looked at me crazy. And I'm like, what? She's gonna love this story. Like, baby, your mom's dead. Like, what? I didn't remember. I had to relive my mom's death all over again.

SPEAKER_03: 24:02

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00: 24:03

And that's what got me out of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:06

Yeah, that is heartbreaking. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 24:11

Yeah, that's it's stuff that they don't talk about when they talk about NDEs. And I don't call them near death experiences because you don't come back as yourself for ever.

SPEAKER_03: 24:22

So you definitely felt like you changed.

SPEAKER_00: 24:24

Oh my god, very much so. The things that I would put up with, I no longer I couldn't be around people large crowds anymore. I would have panic attacks and um pass out at the grocery store if there were too many people. It was crippling.

SPEAKER_03: 24:40

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:41

Because you're not yourself. Like you don't feel like you're on this plane. You don't feel like things are real. But then once you do feel like things are real, the depression follows.

SPEAKER_03: 24:53

Yeah. I'm afraid to ask. Ask. Do it. Because you said those that was the first two deaths. Um so where do we go now? What was the third one?

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

So the third one, I was in Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_03: 25:10

Which also again, if the listeners are paying attention, I didn't say what was the last one. I said, What's the third one? There's still more to come. Um there's more to come. Oh gosh. Okay, hold on. I'm gonna shake out a little bit. All right, okay. I'm ready, I'm ready for number three.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

Okay. So I was in Costa Rica. I was teaching at the time, and um I woke up one morning with the worst migraine of my life. It felt like someone was shoving a spike and type up my head and pulling at my teeth one by one.

SPEAKER_02: 25:45

Fun.

SPEAKER_00: 25:45

And um, I stumbled to the group and I'm like, hey, I can't do this today. I'm gonna have to, you know, take off and stuff. I'm not feeling all that great. And before I could say I'm sorry, I've passed out apparently. Now the rest of this is through the story of other people.

SPEAKER_02: 26:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 26:01

So they said that I passed out. A friend of mine came over to ask me if I was okay. I vaguely remember her in my face asking me if I'm okay, but all I heard was, what you want you would. I said, I'm sorry, what?

SPEAKER_03: 26:16

It was very uh like Charlie Brown with the with the adults.

SPEAKER_00: 26:20

Right? Are you speaking English? What is this? And a friend of mine, he just came over and picked me up, and they had some cushions that they laid me on. And once they laid me down, that's when I was out. They said they'd lost my pulse three times within three to four minutes of each other.

SPEAKER_02: 26:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 26:41

What I remember is laying there looking at the sun, and it was gorgeous, and it felt great, and there was no pain. My head felt great. I was just laying there on the cold marble, and I saw this figure, this dot, black dot in the sun, and it started to get bigger as it was coming towards me. And I'm looking and I'm seeing this person, and like, what is this? It's the shape of a woman. Like, okay, and I look at the face and it's my mom. Oh my mom came. Wow. And I was like, Yes, this is so much better. This is dope. This is excellent. I'm like, all right, mom, let's go. I am ready. And she grabs my face and she goes, You can't. I'm like, excuse you? She goes, You cannot go. Like, no ma'am. I remember this time. I had a choice. This is my choice, and don't you dare leave me with these people. And she says, Baby, you got this. I'm like, please don't leave me. She goes, I swear you got this. And she stood up and walked into the sun. And to my understanding from the story of other people, they said, I bolted up with a big gulp of air in my lungs and said, It's about fucking time and passed out.

SPEAKER_03: 27:52

I'm glad that we got rid of the the you feeling like you couldn't curse because that would have ruined that moment. Right. That was a perfect moment.

SPEAKER_00: 28:02

So yeah, that was interesting within itself to be told, well, to realize my first two times that you have a choice. Either you can die in the darkness or you can fight with the darkness. And I fought the darkness and won. So here I am on my third try. I'm like, hell yes, I'm going home. Yeah. It's gonna be great. Found the light. No, you can't. You cannot go. You can't go home. I was so mad. Yeah, I was so mad.

SPEAKER_03: 28:27

How and how long after the previous two was this? You know, was this a couple years later, five, ten, like roughly timeline?

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

Years. Okay. 2018.

SPEAKER_03: 28:38

Okay. So a lot so almost two decades. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 28:42

So in 2001 is when I passed the first time. And then first two times.

SPEAKER_02: 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:47

And then 2018, here we go. Third time's a turn until last year.

SPEAKER_03: 28:53

Oh god. Okay. I'm ready. I think so.

SPEAKER_00: 29:01

Like, smoking a jang after work and my legs start to not feel good. Like I couldn't list them. And my phone was in my bedroom. So I stumble over to my bed and I'm barely holding on to my phone, trying to call 911, put it on speaker, smartphone. Yeah. And I tell the dispatch all the information, where I am, my symptoms, the whole bit. And she said, just hold on tight. People are gonna come there. I said, I don't think I'm gonna make it. She goes, What? Like, I felt this feeling before. I'm not gonna make it. She says, You're gonna make it. I'm like, I'm dying. She says, You're not dying, I'm like, I'm dying right now. And I passed out, hit my face on my dresser, fell on my floor. And I was tunneling into the dark. And I remember this place. I've been to this place before. And I felt like I was reaching for that light and I could not reach it. I was getting sucked deeper and deeper into the dark. And I could hear the dispatch lady screaming my name. And because I heard that, I was clawing my way out of the darkness to her voice. And as soon as I got out of the darkness, this took a good five minutes. This whole thing took five minutes. I came to puked all over my floor. And she's like, if you can just get to the door and wait for them, they can take care of you. They meaning the paramedics.

SPEAKER_02: 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:21

So I crawled to my front door, hoist myself up to open the door and passed out again. And I was flopping like a fish. I could feel my body flopping. Once the paramedics got there, they said I was severely dehydrated and that there was nothing that they could do. And so I waived them to take me to the hospital, which was dumb on their part and my part. Because the next day I drove myself to the hospital to find out I had no white blood cells, no iron, no vitamin K. Whoa. My blood sugar was 55 and tanky. And had I not come in that day, I would have died that day.

SPEAKER_02: 30:59

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00: 31:00

I had eight rounds of iron and a blood transfusion, only to find out that I had massive fibroids in my uterus, and that's what was killing me.

SPEAKER_03: 31:10

That is wild.

SPEAKER_00: 31:12

So yeah, I really believed Buddhist and Taoist because when my mom came to me, that was the height of my spirituality. I was deep in my practice. I was helping other people get out of the funk that I was in to be in a better practice.

SPEAKER_02: 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:29

And so it really is the mindset. And even the Dalai Lama says you can create whatever universe that you want. Even in death, he says you can believe that this would be the one life that you have. So live it well. The Taoist believes that you'll have many lives. And you can live all of them well. All of them so why not believe that in your death you don't have to come back here? And why would you choose to come back to this planet? When you can go to other dimensions, other planets, other universes, you can make up your own thing. And that's what carved my religion and spirituality.

SPEAKER_03: 32:09

I love that. And I that's kind of a perfect place because that's kind of where I was going to go with the next part of the conversation, or at least from what you had discussed, you know, in this very scary place that you've kind of talked about. I would, you know, if I had experienced that'd be like, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do that again. But it sounds that like you have explored and found this beautiful belief and deep knowing in yourself that I get to kind of craft and and create what that looks like for me. And so it doesn't sound like there's fear, there's liberation, maybe. Freedom. Yeah, freedom. I like that. And I don't wanna, I don't know how to phrase this. There is no concerns about dying now, then. I guess you didn't say that you had any concerns before.

SPEAKER_00: 32:55

I did. I had huge concerns before. Like, you know, is it gonna hurt or I'm gonna be lonely? Or, you know, am I gonna be walking this particular earth, you know, and no one will see me? Like, what is it? Like, what is the end? And the end is whatever you would like for it to be. Do you want to see your loved ones? Then visualize that. Do you want to go to heaven? Visualize that. Personally, I'd like to go to hell because that's where the whiskey is.

SPEAKER_03: 33:26

Yeah, send me where the good stuff is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:28

No doubt. Yeah. That's where the party is.

SPEAKER_03: 33:30

Yeah. Although I'm not, I'm not really that much fun. So I'll I I'll take the alcohol, but maybe I'll find like a corner. I'll be like the wallflower in hell. That's kind of that sounds like my scene. And I'll just like, oh, look at all those people having fun. I'm just gonna stand over here and be an awkward introvert. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so you did you did mention Buddhism. And is that something that was was that something that you had been practicing before the first death? Or was the you know this expiration something that you picked up along the way and it it just felt right? It just resonated.

SPEAKER_00: 34:07

I grew up Baptist and I walked away from that when I was 12 because it did not feel sound right at all. And so I have been dabbling at that time in different religions and trying to find my way. And really, I'm just a spiritualist. I'm not a Buddhist. I I find that unrealistic because I can't love everything.

SPEAKER_01: 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:29

I do not love spiders. You can't make me love spiders, it's not happening.

unknown: 34:32

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 34:33

I've actually been dabbling into Buddhism and learning more about that. I'm doing a big class with my teacher on the Eightfold Path. And as I'm diving in, I would still say a lot of this is wonderful and I love how it makes me look at life and interact with other people and all this stuff. But I still, and maybe I need to keep going, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to like, oh yeah, I'm a Buddhist. That's what I am. I like how you phrase it where it's like, you know, I I take what I can from this. Because I think the other thing with Buddhism that's really interesting and maybe hard is I think there is a really easy way to look at it as not a religion and more as a philosophy because there is so much of that packed in there. And so I don't know if I'll ever really cross that border from philosophical to religion or whatever, but I'm forgetting exactly how you phrased it, but just the spiritual side of it. Definitely feel like I'm starting to tap into that because it, yeah, spiritualist. Yeah, I don't I don't need another label.

SPEAKER_00: 35:34

I believe all of the religions are saying the same thing. They really are kind to one another. And Buddhists and Taoists, I believe that's a way of life. That's not a religion. Yeah. Because you can be a Taoist witch, you can be a Taoist Catholic, a Buddhist Catholic Christian, whatever. It's all encompassing because it is about nature and the rhythm of nature and how we dance to that rhythm and how we vibe on that rhythm. And right now we're out of balance.

SPEAKER_03: 36:02

We are, but but not shocking. I think that's the thing that I keep on thinking about where I'm, I can't believe that this is the world we live in. And then two seconds later it's but I can because of what we what we have set as our priorities as a society. It's like, well, yeah, of course we're here. This is not shocking, actually. Like it sucks and it's not fun, but not shocking at all. I'll have to you're definitely gonna I haven't really I know a little bit about Taoism, but not nearly enough. So you're definitely gonna push me in the direction of learning more there. Because I think exactly like you said, there's just it's a way of living that encompasses every aspect of and I guess you know, maybe others would argue that religion does that too. And I think at its at its I think it at its best, probably yes. But that's again not the world, not the world we live in.

SPEAKER_00: 36:53

I would say Confucianism, we're gonna add them to the Buddhist and the Taoist.

SPEAKER_02: 36:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 36:58

Um, because it is also a way of life, it's they're more philosophy-based, to be honest, Confucianism. For that organized religion to actually work, it would have to take money out of the equation.

SPEAKER_02: 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:12

So that is where Buddhist Taoist and Confucianism comes in to the all-encompassing, and it actually works for the individual if you let it work.

SPEAKER_02: 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:22

But I have found that organized religions, they take a lot of your free will and your character away, which is why a lot of people fail at it. I wouldn't say fail, but they are indifferent with it and they wrestle with it.

SPEAKER_03: 37:35

Yeah, absolutely. I have one last question to ask you.

SPEAKER_00: 37:38

All right.

SPEAKER_03: 37:39

And so you have had quite the life and have been through a lot, but is there anything that you still, you know, like what's one thing that you still want to experience in this life?

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

Oh my god, there's too many things to know. There's way too many things to know. Give me a couple.

SPEAKER_03: 37:57

It doesn't have to be just one.

SPEAKER_00: 38:00

I would love to do some mushrooms in Cairo under Anubis's cartouche and his tomb to speak with the gods.

SPEAKER_03: 38:11

I know it it it feels too basic to call it an experience. This this event or whatever. I I I like this curated event that you've created. That sounds wonderful. Is there any others that you want to share? I know I don't want to cut you off at just one because you said you had a couple or you had a lot, but there are so many.

SPEAKER_00: 38:29

Um, because I've been on this spiritual journey after um the first two times that I have died. I have like read all kinds of books. I've gone to certain places, but there are places that I really want to go. And going to the Valley of the Kings and seeing the kings there, but then going to Monchu Picchu.

SPEAKER_02: 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:48

And talking to Mama Ayahuasca and speaking with the gods of the Mayans and Incans.

SPEAKER_03: 38:54

I love all this, and I I hope you make it happen.

SPEAKER_00: 38:57

Me too. Absolutely. I have had some touch points on them uh through meditation with different shamans.

SPEAKER_02: 39:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:06

And that was amazing. It was amazing. So I can only imagine going to the birthplaces would be even more intense. And then maybe they can tell me why I've died so many times.

SPEAKER_03: 39:19

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:21

That's still a question.

SPEAKER_03: 39:22

Well, I'm gonna say if that does happen, you definitely need to let me know. I wanna I wanna hear a follow-up about it. Maybe we'll we can have you back on the show and you can you can talk all about it. But yeah, I just wanna I just wanna thank you so much for applying and being willing to talk to a complete stranger about your experiences, your deaths. I mean, it's very personal stuff. And so I just want to say thank you so much for for doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 39:48

Oh, thank you so much for having this concert. I mean, the concert, this contest. This is really awesome. I've been searching for this ever since I passed the first time. And um sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 40:00

It took me so long.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:03

It's all my fault. I apologize. I'll be better. I promise. But maybe last thing I want to touch on before we go. This is the thing that I find so wonderful. We, I mean, we live in the same city. There's maybe chances that we'd run into each other, more likely than you know, other callers that I talk to and who live in other cities or other countries. But probably wouldn't have this conversation. And then the other part of it too is when I talk to people and say I have a podcast about death, you know, it's always the, oh, you know, that's so depressing, that's so sad, that's so heavy. We talked about some heavy stuff for sure. We also laughed a ton and had such a wonderful time. And so that's another thing that I just really hope that this inspires people to have these conversations. That is something that we are capable of doing. And in fact, yeah, we need to do it because we are such in lack of that. And I think that's one of the reasons why everybody is tired and depressed and anxious and all these things is because we're not actually connecting with other humans. So again, I want to thank you for being willing to share, but also being willing to laugh and have fun with it too, because this was so much fun. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00: 41:24

Yes, sir. Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 41:27

Yeah, well, definitely stay in touch. Let me know when you get to Machu Picchu and when you get to the Valley of the Kings. I want to hear all about the experiences. I'll let you know when I make it. I want to go to the, I just want to see the Himalayas. I want to hike in the Himalayas. So I'll let you know when I go there. Do some meditation and and maybe I'll figure out some stuff there and we can talk again and have another fun and wonderful conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 41:48

Absolutely. Challenge accepted.

SPEAKER_03: 41:51

Perfect. Well, thank you again, and I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00: 41:55

Thank you. You too.

SPEAKER_03: 41:57

All right. Bye.

unknown: 41:58

Bye.