#44 - Multiple Heart Attacks and a Surprisingly Calm Relationship With Death

What if something big happens… and your life still mostly goes back to normal?

This week’s caller has had two heart attacks, starting when they were sixteen. On paper that sounds intense. But this conversation isn’t heavy. The caller brings a calm, laid-back energy that makes the whole episode feel surprisingly easy to sit with.

We talk about how they think about death, including a loose, pop-culture Buddhist view of reincarnation, and how they’ve learned to live with uncertainty without forcing certainty. There’s also real, grounded detail about their heart condition and what it’s like to move through life knowing your body can do unpredictable things.

One of my favorite moments is when I ask if the heart attacks changed their life, and they’re just honest: not in some permanent, movie-montage way. There was a burst of intensity, a period of “I should do everything,” and then life slowly drifted back toward normal. It’s not a lesson. It’s just true.

In this episode:

• Having a heart attack at sixteen, and how it shaped their relationship with death
• A relaxed, curiosity-forward relationship with mortality
• Reincarnation, Buddhism, and living with the unknown
• The difference between fearing death vs fearing pain
• Panic, hospitals, and what helped them stay calm in the moment
• Living with a heart condition over the long term
• A past-life documentary the caller loves: The Boy Who Lived Before

Book Recommendations: My Side of the Mountain (Jean Craighead George); The Three Musketeers (Alexandre Dumas)

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Theme And Big Question
• 1:01 Sponsor: The Death Deck
• 1:35 Setting The Tone For A Lighter Call
• 2:13 Meet The Caller: Place And Books
• 5:55 Pop-Culture Buddhism And Reincarnation
• 9:20 Bits, Consciousness, And Coming Back
• 12:04 Skepticism, Mystery, And That Documentary
• 14:10 The First Heart Attack At Sixteen
• 16:20 The Second Heart Attack And Acceptance
• 20:21 How Near-Death Changes Fade
• 22:06 Diagnosis: Myocardial Bridging Explained
• 24:36 Fear Of Pain Versus Fear Of Death
• 26:06 Loneliness, Upbringing, And Meaning
• 29:00 A Wish For A Long Forest Trip
• 31:35 Partner’s Anxiety And Honest Comfort
• 35:00 Host Reflection And Closing CTAs

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

I love death. Yeah. I think it's just interesting because like I think I'm just I can borrowed easily I don't wish death on anyone or anything. I just think it's interesting that there's something at the end and we really have no idea what it is. Like they we have ideas. I mean theories. A lot of different theories, and a lot of people are very sure. And you know, you can argue till you're in the face about what what's out there, but we we don't know. And it's it's cool, right?

SPEAKER_02: 0:27

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected direction. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Anzell, and this is When We Die Talk, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about it. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is brought to you by The Death Deck. Want to talk to your family members about the future but don't know how to start? The Death Deck is a lively game that uses multiple choice questions and a dose of humor to help start conversations about death, dying, and illness. Learn new and interesting things about your friends and family members while becoming prepared for the future. And new default, the Death Deck introduces the Dementia Deck. A planning tool to talk about the type of care and treatment you'd want if you're living with dementia. All Death Deck products are available at thedeathdeck.com. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. After the last couple episodes, this one feels like a shift. This conversation is lighter, not because the topic is small, but because the color brings a calm, laid-back presence to it. They've had two heart attacks starting when they were 16, and I know that sounds intense on paper, but what's surprising is how nonchalant they are about death and how relaxed the whole conversation feels. We end up in places like reincarnation, the language they've borrowed from Buddhism, and what it looks like to hold the unknown without trying to force certainty. So if you're looking for an episode that still touches the big stuff but doesn't ask you to brace yourself, this is a perfect one for you. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Zach. Hey, how's it going? It's going good. How are you? I'm good. I'm I'm glad that you're willing to do this. It's always very interesting to me as I'm journeying into this topic or I've been journeying into this topic for a long time. But I'm always really curious to start the call with why you even wanted to do a call about death, something that a lot of people don't even want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

Sure. I'm gonna try to go stream of consciousness because like uh that's that's how this works. I'll censor myself too much. The first thing I wanted to say is like, I love death. Yeah, I think it's just interesting because like I think I'm just I can borrow it easily. I don't wish death on anyone or anything. I just think it's interesting that there's something at the end, and we really have no idea what it is. Like they we have ideas, I mean we have theories, yeah. A lot of different theories, and everyone is a lot of people are very sure. And you know, you can argue till you're in the face about what what's out there, but we we don't know. Totally. And it's it's cool, right?

SPEAKER_02: 3:14

Yeah, and this is a perfect place for us to talk about what you think. So I'm really interested to dive into that and also I've kind of alluded to this in previous episodes, but I've changed the application process a little bit for wanting to be on the podcast. Uh before it was literally just a phone number. So now I'm gathering a little bit of information about the person who's calling. So I know maybe two sentences or one sentence of your story. Very intrigued, very interested. So I'm excited to talk about that. Uh but before we do that, maybe we can kind of get to know you a little bit. So the two questions that I like to ask off the top are where you're calling from, you know, roughly city, state, and then what your favorite book is and why.

SPEAKER_01: 3:59

Okay. I'm calling from El Segundo, that's where I work. Uh live around Long Beach. Okay. I work around LAX, but not at LAX, like at a weird designer studio there.

SPEAKER_04: 4:09

Nice.

SPEAKER_01: 4:09

And favorite book. I I again streaming conch going with the first thought it was uh my side of the mountain. It's just a classic boy runs away, he says he's gonna live in the mountains and succeeds, and it's just a good time. Oh, yeah, that and three musketeers. I think it's like my adult or young adult favorite book.

SPEAKER_04: 4:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:26

The story of D'Artagnan is one who's desperately trying to fit in, and he goes through all these ordeals, and I think I relate to that. Obviously, he's very talented and skilled, and like he's smart. He's not just an average person, but in some ways he is. He comes from like a poor background, he fits into this uh legendary world, and that's that's how I like viewing the world, like stories that make the protagonist seem bigger, or like they're like titans of this earth. It makes the world seem too small and it makes me like snap out of it. Whereas Three Musketeers is very much like, oh, he's just a very interesting part of this world, but he's by no means the king or like the biggest part of it. He's just someone who's deft and daring and uh willing to fuck things up for everyone around him just to get what he wants and yeah, be a part of this fascinating world.

SPEAKER_02: 5:17

I like that. Nice, nice. Well, I'm excited, and I'll also check out my side of the mountain as well. So thank you for those recommendations and now maybe. We'll see.

SPEAKER_01: 5:30

Reading a book is a big deal. You deserve a medal every time you read one, you are smarter and you're better than everybody, and you should feel that way.

SPEAKER_02: 5:37

It's one of the few things that I enjoy anymore. So, um, so I feel like I, you know, I'll get a lot of medals again next year. Um But yeah, I appreciate that. And so yeah, maybe now we can jump into the the heart of the conversation and start with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_01: 5:55

I I'm glad you had a more studied research Buddhist on like pretty early on. I listened to that one right now, I already forgot his name.

SPEAKER_02: 6:02

Ryan. Uh Ryan Williams.

SPEAKER_01: 6:04

Ryan, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's like, yeah, he okay, he's had it, he expanded much better than I could have, so I can kind of skip past the actual traditional research Buddhist opinion and more. This is my half-assed pop culture Buddhist perfect uh version of it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:20

I like that better.

SPEAKER_01: 6:21

I definitely believe you know, they they they both there's a place for everything. Yeah, I definitely believe I definitely believe in a form of reincarnation. I don't think the idea of one-to-one, and I don't think he agreed either. He was like, Yeah, I think it's a little more nuanced than like now you're a duck or now you're a squirrel. Like, oh uh bad job. Now you're a kid in a poor country. Like that's does that mean that I do better or worse than like a pampered dog in America? Um I think there's a version of recycling that happens. Like, you know, we're made of, it's easy to forget, we're made, we're a colony of trillions of cells working together. And that we're we are, in a weird way, our own utopian super colony of microorganisms that come together and think, you know, we're better together. Let's let's like one person equals a utopian or dystopian, depending on your no, I think utopian. Let's say utopian, it's father. Depends on the day. Utopian super colony of living organisms working together for something bigger than themselves. And you know, at what point is it a human? That's you know, that's the whole abortion debate. I'm not really going to have. But it is it's it's an interesting thought experiment of like this on a light switch, it's like a weird spectrum of consciousness. And I feel there's a version of that towards death, but it's more like we just kind of scatter like the rings in Sonic, like we just slowly I'm loving all these references. Cool. Uh yeah, it's uh heavily researched. Um like the cells fall apart, we hopefully decompose, and I I think our body wants us to go back in the dirt. Like, I there they just seem to pre like, yeah. Some people want to like be burnt up and maybe release into atmosphere, but I feel like most people they want, I want to be in the dirt, you know? Yeah, that's where our cells want to go. Yeah. To be part of the dirt again.

SPEAKER_02: 8:07

Totally. And so what does reincarnation then look like to you? And maybe it's even in an ideal world when you die and come out the other side. What does that look like in your mind? Whether it's what you fully believe or hope, but what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01: 8:25

If I have to put like a visual thing to it, it's like some sort of uh ball of energy in terms of us, what we think of us, like our consciousness. And around it is our memories and thoughts and like bits of our soul, but it's like more amorphous, like it's not shielded as much. Like when we're alive, you know, we have our skin, we have our physical presence.

SPEAKER_03: 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:46

We're we're we're mostly closed off from, I believe, like weird, creepy shit like demons and angels and stuff like that, crazy stuff. And then when we die, we're back to that kind of kind of plane where everything is kind of open, people's thoughts can affect things. Because you know, I don't think we've solved that. I have to research the mind broadly problem, right? It's like at some point our thoughts become matter and actually affect things. Yeah. What is the difference between that and like just a thought thought?

SPEAKER_03: 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:11

Um, I think it just gets magnified, amplified out when we're dead because there's no barriers anymore, and we're just floating around and we can like lose bits, we can change bits kind of freely. Maybe we're attracting different, I'm calling them bits. I'm sure there's a better word for it, but uh it's the scientific terming and like yeah, bits, you know, when we die, we turn into a bunch of bits, and we're just kind of recycling them maybe, and we're like in a sea of the collective unconscious. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 9:40

Yeah. And do we come back to this plane of existence, or is it just kind of on to that next area? I I really just wanted to try to reuse bit.

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sorting it out. Yeah. We don't stay at we don't stay at level two or whatever it is. I think we come back. For the most part, we come back. Some people are better at they remember they're a little more connected the way a lot of people swear they never dream. And that's actually we dream every single night.

SPEAKER_03: 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:10

And so it's interesting how many people are just so disconnected. And not to judge them or anything, I think they're just focused on like life and like day-to-day things. They're they're not thinking about elephants on skateboards or whatever, they're just what's day-to-day life like.

SPEAKER_03: 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:23

And I think some people that were a little more connected to that side of their life, the side of their unconscious, when they come back, they remember more.

SPEAKER_03: 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:31

I don't know if you saw that. This is very stoner talk, but it was it was cool. It was like in top in terms of stoner documentaries, top five. This you have to. Uh The Boy Who Lived Before. Did you ever see that one?

SPEAKER_03: 10:42

No.

SPEAKER_01: 10:42

Oh, dude, it's it's one of those that's like as skeptic as you can possibly be. This like, okay, all right. Like, I don't know. I I don't how did it how did he remember this obscure island off the coast of Scotland that he's never heard of? No one ever has, and he remembers a house and a family and like an airport. Like, how? Like, this is a fucking five-year-old kid, like the mom is like just a normal average, they're not famous, the game's nothing, you know, and the kid just keeps talking about his old family from like a very, very distant island. And they, you know, introduced like the skeptic and the scientist who's like going around researching all these people, and he's probably one of the best examples of like how else you explain this. We we have no idea, yeah, unless they teach this five-year-old how to act and have a very elaborate backstory for him. But it's just one of those things like, you know what, odds are I think he remembers something.

SPEAKER_02: 11:33

Yeah, I love what science has given us and and all these things. But I think we've fallen so far into that direction that there is a lot of mystery that it doesn't explain. And then we just kind of chalk that up to, yeah, you know, this is pseudoscience or this is a kid who's being coached in acting or whatever, you know, I haven't seen the movie, obviously. But there is so much skepticism that comes into that. But I truly don't believe that we know everything about how the world works, and I don't think we have the science to prove everything about how the world works. So yeah, I love stuff like that, and I'm excited to check that movie out.

SPEAKER_01: 12:10

I agree. I think it's the whole spectrum of like being that skeptical and like just believing. Just today I had a co-worker talk about how, like, oh yeah, in Afghanistan, there's a unit that fought a giant. I'm like, oh, I I never just go, That's bullshit, right? I try to I try to approach it like well, if maybe if there were at least local legends of this giant and there were a few more people, if it's just one guy saying it, then like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna dismiss that easier. But like, give me at least a town, a urban legend, a conspiracy. Totally. Like a few, a few soldiers going, yeah, we all saw the same thing. Then I'm a little more like open to it. It's one guy, like, oh, this guy's from a cell book. Okay, I don't be, I don't buy it.

SPEAKER_02: 12:50

Totally. So there's a couple questions from here. Part of what I'm curious about is how did you come to the kind of this reincarnation belief? But then I think also diving into your application and what you kind of said about your past, having some familiarity with death. I'm curious maybe if there's a direction that you want to go from the I mean, I I think those are kind of two different directions if there's one that kind of stands out for you. Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 13:15

Can you remind me what I wrote? Did I talk about the heart attack? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:20

So yeah, the first one, it sounds weird to say, again, stream of consciousness. First one didn't feel like that big a deal. Like I I talked about it for last because it was it's easy to think something weird happens to you once, it's a freak accident.

SPEAKER_04: 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:32

Like I had a heart attack on the 16. It was uh unpleasant, like it was painful, but I just thought it was like even before I knew it was a heart attack, everyone's like, that's not a heart attack, what are you doing? They redo the test. Oh shit, you had a heart attack.

SPEAKER_02: 13:43

I mean, at 16, that's kind of wild. That's not the first thing on the list, right? As 16 years old, they're not thinking, Oh yeah, heart attack, 16 years old. This is normal.

SPEAKER_01: 13:53

Exactly. They they like it was, you know, the EMT did the EKG and he's all confused. And the doctor comes, like, you're doing it wrong. Give me that. And you know, they do do it, and like, oh shit. Uh, I remember the way he said it, like, apparently he had a heart attack. It stayed a mystery the first time because you know, they didn't want to like dig in there or anything like that. I told them I took NyQuil and they're like, Well, it does elevate your heartbeat. Still, like, you didn't chug a bottle or anything like that. You just, you know, you took twice the recommended dose. That's that shouldn't be enough.

SPEAKER_04: 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:21

Your vessel had a spasm. They took scans of my heart, I forget. I think MRA, and they saw where the damage came from, and they were able to like take okay, so you have a specific vessel inside the heart that got damaged, so that's that's probably what's spasming and gave you a heart attack. There's not enough blood was going to that area. And I'm like, okay, not cool, though. All right, that we understand.

SPEAKER_03: 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:41

Pass forward, I think I was like 22.

SPEAKER_03: 14:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 14:44

And I had the same familiar feeling. And it was after, you know, my girlfriend was over. I was saying this is an adult. We we had sex, and that's feeling pretty good. And then I just had like the not to freak your audience out, but it does feel a lot like just a regular like tummy ache, like uh, like when you get gappy. Okay. The begin the beginning of a heart attack feels very similar.

SPEAKER_02: 15:07

Okay. Now everybody's gonna be like, oh no, I'm having a heart attack. My stomach hurts.

SPEAKER_01: 15:12

I know I will.

SPEAKER_02: 15:13

Yeah, it doesn't help.

SPEAKER_01: 15:14

It's like, oh yeah, a heart attack and a panic attack feel very similar in the first 30 minutes. But I uh it just kept getting worse. And it's like, mm, I think I recognize this. I had like an emergency dose of um, I already forgot the name of it. I should probably get that again. I'm kind of laissez-faire when it comes to my health.

SPEAKER_04: 15:29

Yeah, it's easy.

SPEAKER_01: 15:30

But I'm doing better. I go to the I drive myself to the hospital, I didn't want to worry anybody, I don't want to worry my mom. I still live at home then. My girlfriend was there, she she was she had to deal with like the paperwork and stuff, and she had no idea like what to put out and stuff like you know, and it was it was like a CD emergency room in like a small town, so they were not thrilled to just treat me without insurance and paperwork and stuff like that. And uh it just kind of got worse. Thankfully, because I reacted fast, I drove there. I'm like, I need I need this medication. I'm having a heart attack. Please give me that now. And they're probably thinking you're making it up. We'll be right back. Well, they take like, you know, the the the the receptionist, she goes back there, she talks to a doctor, they explain my case. Look, thankfully, within 30 minutes, I want to say like 15 to 30 minutes, they come back out with the medication because I'm just standing there. I don't look like I'm having a heart attack, but just the conviction and like uh charisma. I don't know. Like they they give me the medication, they put me on a stretcher, and they do the test, and like, oh shit, he is, he is he's having a heart attack. Well, I think that's when it really hit me that like maybe I'll die. This isn't a freak accident. This is this is me, my heart. There's something wrong with my heart.

SPEAKER_03: 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:40

And there wasn't any NyQuil this time, it wasn't any like nothing else was happening. Yeah, you were just living life, and it's just like I it wasn't like this, I want to say almost like Christian thing of like I was sinning and uh well I guess I was I guess I was sexy, but no, no, you know what I mean, like real ones, like yeah, not taking care of my heart or like real uh wasn't doing heavy drugs or anything like that. Yeah, and it's just gonna happen. This is my heart.

SPEAKER_02: 17:05

Which has to be that has to be a scary thing to when you like look at it. Brain, heart, and lungs, I would say, right? I mean, I think there's there's other parts of your body for sure, but I think those three, like if something's wrong with one of those, that's a different category. And so that has to put you into just like a different way of thinking about if my heart doesn't function at all, that's a serious problem.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

Yeah, it really feels it feels less like your body and more this is me. This is like these yeah, these aren't these aren't just organs, these are me. The emotions seem to come from there. I know it doesn't, I forget exactly how I feel like that, but it feels I I get why back in the day they thought that the heart was more important than the brain. Like it's where you f all your feelings seem to come from, the strong ones anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 17:52

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01: 17:53

Uh it's funny, but but when I think of the sentence before I say it, it makes me laugh. Thankfully, I was Buddhist by then.

SPEAKER_04: 18:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 18:02

And I was able to like chill out and like meditate and like relax and accept this and be like, you know what, I'd rather not, but if it happens, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02: 18:14

Like I am not that far my Buddhist training yet. I'm jealous.

SPEAKER_01: 18:20

Oh, and I was just laying down and uh the other thing I can remember, I should have thought about it before. Uh, you know, I'll rehearse this next time. But um there was like metal music in my head. Like bang and you know, like really heavy, like gruesome, and it it kind of helped me deal with it a little better, like the pain of it, because it seemed less like like a freak out, gruesome thing to happen and more like like an experience. And you know, there was I don't want to say hallucination, but I would close my eyes and there was like these like red and black kind of shapes, figures that I could kind of like imagine and like watch while I close my eyes, kind of dancing to the scene. And during it, I was able to like relax. I don't know, you want one of those people that like yeah, I meditated my way out of a heart attack. I mean, I still had it, but I feel like it would have been a lot worse had I been just continually freaking out, like I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die.

SPEAKER_02: 19:12

Playing into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:13

Yeah. And you know, like I said, uh getting the medication I needed, knowing what I had, it wasn't as bad, but it was still a second heart attack.

SPEAKER_02: 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:23

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:25

Well, you didn't tell me about the second heart attack in the in the application.

SPEAKER_04: 19:29

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 19:30

No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. How has this affected the way that you look at life? I mean, you even mentioned a little bit or said that you're, you know, laissez-faire with your health a little bit. Do you look at life differently? Do you look at death differently? Yeah, how did this change one or the other or both?

SPEAKER_01: 19:48

Uh I mean, in typical fashion, I spent a few months really like, oh, I could do this and I could I could volunteer my church more and I could do that, and then afterwards I just kinda wore out and like live life normally. Yeah, but it's kinda any big event tends to do that, I I feel. Or maybe I'm just jaded and dead inside. But a couple of months of like the world is amazing, the gift of life. Oh, I could do this and that. And then I just kinda went back to screwing around a bit. I did already have like you know, I had hobbies, like I liked acting and I liked drawing and I was trying to get a better job, but I feel yeah, within three to four months I just kinda went back to normal life most of the mostly.

SPEAKER_02: 20:28

Yeah. I mean I haven't had a heart attack, but I think that's sometimes the hard thing about life is you can have these moments of real clarity, whether it's in a heart attack or just some medical malady or you know, life circumstance, a divorce, so many things that can kind of uproot uh the way that you look at the world, the way that you see the world, but you still need to live in the world. And the world does operate in a certain way. And so as amazing as it would have been for you to kind of come out of this heart attack and say, Hey, you know, I'm gonna volunteer, I'm gonna do all this stuff, I'm gonna devote my life to uh you know this and this and this. And uh there is a way that you could have done that, right? I mean, uh in it just it's just an extreme way of living in the world that we live now, but there is very quickly, I gotta pay my bills. I, you know, have to pay my rent, I have to do this. And so I think that is the real interesting balancing act with all of this stuff, with some sort of awakening moment that you still do need to exist in this world. And that's hard, but it's also the nature of it, right?

SPEAKER_01: 21:38

Yeah, yeah, it's not all hardcore epiphanies every day. I will say I think I was already on the path towards appreciating life, so it's not like it's not like I was a hardcore materialist skeptic, and then the heart attack changed thing. It's more like I was already kind of going towards this path, so I it is easy for me to just put the heart attack into like, and this is another reason to be weird, I guess. Like I've already kind of going down that way.

SPEAKER_02: 22:03

Yeah, to double down on on who you really are. Because that is that is part of that balancing act too, right? The world will try to make you into something that you're not. Well, maybe not maybe not everybody. I mean, maybe some people are just built that way, but I think there is it makes you it makes you want a shape, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

It's trying to spit, it's trying to give you a default skin. And yeah, some people like that and some people don't.

SPEAKER_02: 22:26

Yeah. I'm one thing I'm curious about is has there not been something along the way that the doctors have like, is there something that's just like a defect in your heart that it's that could be fixed, or is this just kind of like, yep, this is a blip on the map that's gonna come up every couple years, potentially?

SPEAKER_01: 22:46

Oh, yeah, I didn't mention so the second time they took a better look because they're like, okay, this isn't a freak accident. Let's really dig deep, find out what's happening. So they ran more MRIs, more tests, they were studying it more. And I think the weird thing, it was one of those things where you see like a main character for a second, you know, what was that? And I'm like, it's like he's like the head of cardiology. And like when I was like laying down in my bed for this old man, like I want to say he was like 70s, you know, on like a coat, very house. Well, you think of house, like his equivalent before the show came out. And he was like followed by like seven like doctors in training, and uh he took the stethoscope out, then just touched my chest with his hand, and he's like, ah, mm-hmm. And apparently after he got involved, they found out that I what happens is I have a I don't know if it's an artery or vessel, I guess I think a vessel is the term they use, that's built inside my heart.

SPEAKER_03: 23:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

So it's always a little constrained. It's normally fine, but they call it mycordial bridging.

unknown: 23:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

I remember that word. But if it also spasms, which in normal people might make them feel a little anxious, with my already stupidly built heart, together they call it a heart attack.

SPEAKER_02: 24:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 24:03

Their powers combined give me heart attacks.

SPEAKER_02: 24:05

The worst superpower ever.

SPEAKER_01: 24:07

Yes. They can take this guy down. Um, and they can't really do anything about it except maybe a stent, but that's not great. You know, like if the heart's intact and he's not having heart attacks all the time, let's just leave it alone, not cut it open, get all this stuff in there. So I think I'm fine. They did mention I have scarring there, so that's like maybe ten or so years off my life total at the end, but I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_02: 24:31

Just like that.

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

They didn't give me a number, but that's just they just meant you you got scarring in there. You you got maybe and again, though my memory's kind of fuzzy. He may have said something like it's equivalent to like a 65-year-old man or something like that. I feel better than that, though, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

You know, this might have been just his opinion.

SPEAKER_02: 24:48

I'm just like in awe of the yeah, it's just like 10 years off, so whatever. I'm like, how it's more like uh how did you get to that place? And I don't want to put the words in your mouth, but I guess from you know, my my learnings in Buddhism and what we've kind of talked about a lot in this conversation is what else can you do about it? But I still I'm still always shocked by the people that are just so comfortable with the idea of death. Is that your Buddhism practice or yeah?

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

I think it's a couple of things. First, I'm just curious. Let's just take a have you have you quantified your anxiety towards death on a scale of one to ten before? Has anyone asked that yet?

SPEAKER_02: 25:25

Nobody nobody has asked that yet. And I've often said I don't know if I could quantify it, but on a scale of one to ten, I would say when I started this project, and of course that's looking back and whatever, I I think I was a nine or a ten.

SPEAKER_01: 25:39

Wow. Okay. So yeah. Especially in comparative to your life. This is the most freaked out of death I've ever been. And probably a little more than average. Let's that's that's good to put that at 10 because you can't imagine someone who's even more freaked out. I mean, you could possibly, but yeah, you're pretty high up there.

SPEAKER_02: 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:56

Now I would say probably at a six or seven.

unknown: 25:59

That's not that's good.

SPEAKER_02: 26:00

Yeah, so progress. You know, I'd probably do some, you know, decimal. So, you know, six point eight, so let's just round up to seven. And I think, you know, before we're probably at like a nine point two, so we can round down to nine. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely getting better. I don't have kind of the panic attacks around it anymore, or I started calling them existential attacks. You know, I haven't really had many of those. But I mean, when I talk to you, like if I had to answer that question for you, I'm like, oh yeah, he's a one or a two. You just seem so comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_01: 26:31

I would say like three or four. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

Depending on the day. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like I'm not going to throw my life away. I I would say I'm afraid of pain.

SPEAKER_03: 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:40

Like, I I definitely I have a I've a weird, intense fear of being in a situation where I have to cut off my own arm to survive. I don't know why. I'm afraid, I'm really afraid that there's some sort of weird reincarnation. Like, it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02: 26:52

I'm like, God, what was that movie? I mean, obviously it was a true event, but like 127 hours.

SPEAKER_01: 26:57

Yeah, yeah. Did you see that?

SPEAKER_02: 26:58

Maybe at like a very, very young age and traumatized you or something.

SPEAKER_01: 27:03

No, it was just it was later, but it fit my phobia perfectly, and I was entranced and I loved it. Like, I god, I hope that never happens to me. That's not as terrible as I I thought it would be. Like, I know he gets that cool trip at the end, but it like I think I would just like no, I'm just gonna die. I'd be more likely to just die.

SPEAKER_02: 27:20

I don't think I would I don't think I'd have it in me to do what he did. I mean, that was I mean, amazing in its own crazy way. Very impressive that someone has the more with all to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

That's more courageous in me just kind of fuck it. I'm just gonna wither here. Yeah, like totally. You know, give me give me three days of exposure, maybe I'll change my mind. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, three or four. Well, that comes from, you know, I grew up fairly religious. I think a combination of video games and religion, both going like when you die, it's not a big deal, you know. And it's I know video games are video games. That was my formative experience as a kid. It's like raised off TV in the video games. Yeah. Maybe let's call it detachment from real life, kind of stuck around. Like you can't, I mean, I've tried to grow and make more friends and real connections as an adult, but I think there's a certain core that just you wrap stuff around it, but that's who I am. I'm like kind of like a weird, lonely, detached kid. And like, you know, I have friends and like family and commitments and all, but it's you know, it's there. Like I feel it.

SPEAKER_03: 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:24

And um, so I would pray a lot as a kid. I would pray to like cry less because I was very like emotional and like not like sad all the time, just like easily triggered, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_02: 28:36

You had a lot of feelings.

SPEAKER_01: 28:37

And yeah, I had a lot of feelings. I didn't know what to do with them. Yeah. My parents were immigrants, and I really feel I didn't get it, but I now I understand that they they had a very specific upbringing, and they could not understand why a kid who's not hungry every day, who doesn't live in a small house with ten other kids, who has all the TV and videos well, not all the video games, but could play video games and TV as much as they want, yeah, and have all the tension be upset and sad. And you know, they weren't like they were great parents, but you know, they just they were there was a misunderstanding there.

SPEAKER_03: 29:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

And there was a lot of misunderstanding over misunderstanding, and I think that led to me being kind of isolated and not having a lot of friends until I was pretty much in high school. But I think in a way, loneliness made me more uh okay with death.

SPEAKER_02: 29:24

That's interesting. That all makes sense. I mean, especially I and I love how you even phrased it with like your parents, it's totally understandable the response that they had because of where they came from, their upbringing. And it's also totally understandable and reasonable why I felt the ways that I did. That's you know, not necessarily on the topic of this podcast to some extent. But I think there's something really beautiful about just that recognition of where our parents come from and where we come from and how there can be this divide or separation. But you have this understanding of I'm not upset that they had this reaction to me. Like it's completely understandable. I think that's uh a really amazing thing. I think that is wonderful to have that understanding because I think that's something that a lot of us miss. And that's not just in our dynamic with our just our parents, right? That's our dynamic with everybody that we all have these stories and we bring these stories to the table. And if you don't understand that other people have stories and different stories, and that's what they're bringing to the table, it is hard to see that. Oh yeah, you know, my parents were just they didn't get me, they didn't love me the right way, or whatever it is. So yeah, again, a very, very long tangent of mine, but I just felt like I should mention that. That's really I think that's really beautiful that that you're able to see that.

SPEAKER_01: 30:44

Yeah. I think um sorry, this I uh that was a that was that was a good tangent. I I want to congratulate you. I I'm sorry, I'm not I don't I'm not being uh like sarcastic at all. I just it's a thing of like if I if I if I want to say how I feel, I'm just gonna go straight for it in a very wordy way instead of trying to overthink it.

SPEAKER_02: 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:05

So I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

Yeah. Well, I have one last question for you. What's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_01: 31:14

Like a really, really good long mushroom trip out in the forest, like like a 10-day hike or something. Like really be out there.

SPEAKER_02: 31:23

Get lost.

SPEAKER_01: 31:24

I haven't done that. I've done yeah, like super lost, really see like I I've seen some things, you know, like I've taken mushrooms.

SPEAKER_02: 31:31

I feel like getting lost in nature. Yeah, and really just kind of experiencing that. I think that's beautiful. Is there is there a place that you'd want to go?

SPEAKER_01: 31:39

Yeah, I'm you know, I'm pretty big weeb. So if I went to Japan, I'd definitely do like those Buddhist temples around the mountains and stuff, and like uh like a long sit. Like uh the most I've ever meditated for is just like six hours. So maybe something even longer, you know, more extreme. Give me that waterfall, that anime stuff. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

Yeah, do that and then wander off into the the forest for ten days and you'll come back out of completely different person.

SPEAKER_01: 32:07

Yeah, in a safe way, because I I don't want to be a statistic. Like uh I don't want to get a an arm stuck underneath a rock and yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:17

Fingers crossed. I do not want that to happen to you.

SPEAKER_01: 32:20

That would be the worst possible trip. I I don't want to harsh, harsh it with something like that.

SPEAKER_02: 32:25

Yeah, yeah, that's valid. Well, thank you so much for being willing to do this, uh, for being willing to kind of share about your experiences. I am definitely like slowly diving into Buddhism. So it's always really wonderful to talk to other people who are on that path. Because I think there is just there's language that I think there's some familiarity, and I think it's a wonderful practice. Whether you believe in I think there's a religious side of Buddhism, and I think there's also a philosophical side of it. The philosophical side, at least, I think is a very wonderful way to approach the world and approach life. And anyway, very thankful for that.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

That's how I kind of convince myself that like, well, even if I'm wrong, it's pretty good. You know, off off podcast talk, or I did want to when you have time and some other day, like uh my girlfriend had a very similar feeling towards death.

SPEAKER_03: 33:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 33:19

And then I ended up having to comfort her because she got she got a gnarly like minute of like, you might die in five years. Like we didn't know.

SPEAKER_03: 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:28

And uh there was this point where she I'll I'll try to be quick again. There's a point where she would ask me, just tell me I'm going to be okay. I'm gonna be fine. And the first two days I just did, even though like I didn't know, I guess it's like, yeah, you're gonna be okay. But it was very half-assed because like you know, my heart wasn't in it because I didn't know.

SPEAKER_03: 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:51

The third day, I had some time after some meditation, stuff like that, going, I don't know if you're gonna be okay, but you can decide that you're gonna be okay with death.

SPEAKER_03: 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:01

And she did not like that. She was like, uh, what do you mean? How can you say like what no, like no? And yeah, and that's a kind of recount the conversation with her, but eventually she sorta became a little better at it, but it was definitely not an easy message to uh take, even though you know she'd been with me for a while and she knows my whole shtick. Yeah, yeah. But it was interesting. It took me a couple days to get the courage to be like, actually, this is what I believe about death. Yeah. You should be okay with it.

SPEAKER_02: 34:32

Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's definitely a hard one to deliver for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 34:36

Yeah. It's because you know, I don't want to it's it is a very, I don't want to say condescending, grandiose. Well, any of those words.

SPEAKER_02: 34:43

Yeah, it's very blunt to some extent too, right? To say to somebody, especially a loved one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:48

So yeah, well, we can talk about that later if you feel like yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

Well, if she ever wants to come onto the podcast, let me know. Um, and I can talk to her about it too.

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

I think she would. Uh no, that's that's a good one. She is not she's more atheist agnostic. So this would be more of like uh how do you comfort yourself when you don't have that um belief in the soft cushy pillow of afterlife?

SPEAKER_02: 35:09

Yeah, which is more of my perspective. Um, so it'd be interesting. Maybe this will be a two-parter where we'll we'll do a back-to-back weeks of of yours and hers if she's up for it. But yeah, yeah, I'll let her know. Yeah, definitely, definitely let her know, and uh you have my contact info. She can just shoot me a text if she's up for it. But obviously, zero pressure for me. Um, but that could be a very interesting side by side or something.

SPEAKER_01: 35:32

Yeah, I think it'd be cool.

SPEAKER_03: 35:34

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 35:34

All right, I don't want to take up more of your time, but uh, thanks. This is a great talk. I'm glad uh it was fun. Uh obviously got some more laughs than I thought it would.

SPEAKER_02: 35:42

Yep. That's how it always goes, it feels like there's always way more laughing than than anyone it would expect in a conversation about death.

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Yeah, I'm glad we didn't, you know, just compare Buddhist texts or something like that. Like, oh, I believe in page 130. Uh you're supposed to go up this side of the mountain and uh we'll all have to study and then we can do that.

SPEAKER_02: 36:03

We can do that next year.

SPEAKER_01: 36:05

Okay, sounds good. Perfect. See you in a year after you've read three muscle tears. Perfect, perfect.

SPEAKER_02: 36:10

Man, I got a lot, I got a lot of work to do. Well, thank you so much. We'll definitely stay in touch, and I hope you take care.

SPEAKER_01: 36:17

I take care.

SPEAKER_02: 36:18

Bye. Bye. There's a moment I keep coming back to where I asked the caller about how having two heart attacks has changed their life. And they're just honest. They basically say for a little while it did. And then a few months later, things kind of drifted back toward normal. I think we carry this expectation that these big moments are supposed to permanently rewire us. Like something happens and suddenly we live with perfect clarity and start doing everything differently. But a lot of time life just keeps being life. The changes can be real without being dramatic. It can be temporary without being meaningless. And honestly, I found that kind of reassuring. Not because it's a great lesson, just because it feels so true. And before we wrap this up, I want to zoom out for a second. By the time this episode airs, I'll have recorded 50 anonymous calls. That still feels a little unreal to say out loud. What started as a way to fill a gap in the calendar has turned into a core of this whole project. And one more thing, because I've been hinting at it for a while, I'm getting close to launching the other project I've been teaching. It's going to be called Nimostany, and I'll share more about it in the next week or two. All right, that's it for this week. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel left alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietox.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.