Anonymous #26 — Are We Making Death Harder by Refusing to Accept It?

What does death look like when it’s part of your job?

This week’s anonymous caller is an EMT who’s around emergencies and dying on a regular basis. And because of that, this conversation doesn’t stay in the abstract for long.

We talk about what CPR actually does to the body, the gap between what people think happens in a medical crisis versus what it really looks like, and why end-of-life wishes can get complicated the moment fear enters the room.

A big thread in this call is about clarity. Not in a cold way. More like the kind of clarity you get when you’ve seen the same situations play out again and again. Especially when it comes to DNRs, family dynamics, and what people ask for on paper versus what actually happens in the moment.

In this episode:

• Seeing death up close as part of the job
• What CPR really does to the body
• Why “doing everything” can override someone’s wishes
• DNRs and how they can get complicated in real time
• How repeated exposure to death changes the way you think about it
• The caller’s own near-death experience and what it did (and didn’t) change

A few moments from the call:

• “Even if we bring you back… you’re gonna have broken ribs.”
• “Some estranged family member takes you off that DNR because you’re a fighter…”
• “Death happens to everyone… it could happen today, it could happen tomorrow.”

Book Recommendation: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Hunter S. Thompson)

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

Nemosené: guided story recordings to help people preserve their voice. Support this work by visiting nemosene.com

Transcript

Cold Open: The Cost Of CPR

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And if we do bring you back, God willing, we somehow bring you back from death, from cardiac arrests before there's any lasting brain trauma or anything like that, you're gonna have broken ribs, full nine yards of just insane things that are gonna be wrong with you. And that's not even saying what caused your cardiac arrest. It could have just been all day. For all I know, it was your time to go. And I don't say that to families. I should, at some point, I should start telling them that. Like, hey, are you sure she wanted you to rip up her DNR or anything? Are you are you sure she's a fighter?

Show Intro And Sponsor

SPEAKER_04 0:35

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ancel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. This episode is brought to you by The Death Deck. Want to talk to your family members about the future but don't know how to start? The Death Deck is a lively game that uses multiple choice questions and a dose of humor to help start conversations about death, dying, and illness. Learn new and interesting things about your friends and family members while becoming prepared for the future. And new this fall, the Death Deck introduces the Dementia Deck. A planning tool to talk about the type of care and treatment you'd want if you're living with dementia. All Death Deck products are available at thedeathdeck.com. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time.

Why Talk About Death With An EMT

SPEAKER_04 1:46

One thing I often think about is what it does to a person to see death up close on a regular basis. Not as an abstract idea, but as something you're walking into on an ordinary day at work and how that changes what you pay attention to. That's what this call is. This week's caller is an EMT, and what you'll hear isn't a big philosophical discussion as much as a practical one. What actually happens in an emergency, what certain procedures really look like, and what matters most when things are moving fast and people are scared. We spend a good amount of time on DNRs and end-of-life wishes, not in a hypothetical way, but more like if you don't want certain things done to your body, you need the people around you to know that, and you need it documented. Because in the moment, love and panic can override what someone said they wanted. There are a few moments in this call that are really blunt and real, so take care of yourself while you listen. But it's also the kind of conversation that makes you think, okay, I should talk about this with the people in my life. All right, let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy. Hello. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

It's going pretty all right. How are you?

SPEAKER_04 2:49

I'm good. Thank you so much for doing this.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah, of course, man. I mean, I uh thought the idea was kind of neat. I thought, you know, hey, I have a unique perspective considering my job and all and what I do for a living.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

So Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I I appreciate it. And I appreciate the uh opportunity here.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Yeah, I think that was one of the things that most intrigued me about your application was your profession. And well, it's it feels very secretive right out of the gate. We'll talk about it more, of course. But maybe just to just to kind of kick things off, you kind of said a little bit about it there, but maybe just briefly you could let me know why you even wanted to have a call or a conversation about death. But it's not something that a lot of people really want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I mean, that's why, honestly, because not a lot of people want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

That's why I want to have that conversation. It death is such like, for me, it's such a normal part of life. And I know that's such a weird thing to say.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Sorry, I don't want to cut you off, but do you want to do you wanna maybe mention what your profession is there? We could maybe leave it hanging, but maybe it helps to give some context, although I like the mystery of it.

Meet The Caller And Backstory

SPEAKER_00 3:57

No, I'm uh so I'm an EMT. I have been a firefighter before that, so I'm kind of used to it. That is like the one constant in my job. The funny thing, when I was going through EMT school, which I did complete about a year ago now, yeah, I was the black cloud. So I was doing an empty school in middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania. And if you know anything about Pennsylvania, not a lot happens, especially out in like the place I was. And I I was in a pretty smack dab central Pennsylvania. And the thing about central Pennsylvania, they say, is there's realistically only two things people do there: drugs and each other. And I'll be honest with you, that is just true. That is entirely right. It's a strange little town, it's a strange little area where nothing necessarily happens, but when stuff does happen, it's like never good. So when I got on ride-alons and I started doing all my shifts and stuff to go and get my uh EMT, every time, and this was even before trauma season. And you know, trauma seasons in spring because everyone likes to go go out and party and drive their nice cars, their motorcycles and stuff. Trauma season is probably my least favorite part time of the year. But even even without that, every single time someone died on my shift. I wasn't even the empty yet. I I was just there for the experience and because I needed the hours to go and get my certification. Every single shift, someone died. Someone was either shot, stabbed, ran in their car into the uh I actually have a pretty interesting story about that last one, but like ran their car off the side of the road. Something like that happened. And I got so desensitized to it that I didn't even really start thinking about it as death. I just started thinking about it as just like, well, I guess that's that then. And we gotta go clean up now.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

Yeah. I don't want to, I mean, it I I hate to say that that's a wonderful setup, but I that sounds callous or or wrong in some way, but no, it's a it's a very interesting setup for sure. I don't want to cut you off because I'm like, oh man, I'm so interested. And so usually I don't even ask questions, you know, in that first little part. I just kind of want to get like a little bit of an idea. But I'm like, oh yeah, we are already like a freight train. We're ready to start kind of jumping into this. So I'm gonna pull us back for a second. I do think it's very interesting to have this perspective that you have that is you set it straight out. It's one of the first things that I wrote down is death is the one constant in your job. And so I feel like that's a great setup for this conversation because that's so different than probably 99.9% of people. So I'm so excited to dive into that. But so maybe to just kind of get to know you slightly, I usually ask where you're calling from, you know, city-state-ish, and then your favorite book and why. And then we can jump back into the conversation because I'm really excited for it.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Oh man. Great. Yeah. So hi, I'm Colin from at the moment I'm in Nashville, Tennessee.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

So I've lived, geez, gonna get the short story. I've lived in, let's see, born in Germany, moved to the USA, Indonesia, South Africa. Oh, I'll say about nine countries. Wow. Nine countries growing up.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

A world traveler. Or not even traveler, a world liver.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

No, not not by choice. Uh just putting that out as well.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

When when you're a kid, you don't really have much choice, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Military family and all that doesn't really make moving much of a choice. And you know, my dad's in the State Department right now, and so I don't see him ever, and it's just kind of part of life for me. It's yeah, I like moving, I like being other places often and frequently because it's like, wow, I don't know. I don't like being held down one spot, which is what makes Nashville kind of weird for me.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Like I saw an opportunity with Nashville and I took it. Like I I'm living with one of my best friends in the last half decade.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And I mean this came out of nowhere for me. And you know, I was like, I need to get out of Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania makes me miserable because it's Pennsylvania, as I'm sure you can understand. Yeah, based on your description. As a young person going from like DC, right, which love DC to death. One of my favorite cities. Going from DC to Pennsylvania where nothing happens was a little rough for me.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

That's a difference. What about your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

God, that's a difficult one.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

I know.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I grew up, and this is another big constant for me in my life, was the Percy Jackson books.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

And those were what made me want to like start reading. They made me want to like read better. I like the Percy Jackson books. I haven't come back to them in quite some time. And I guess the most recent book, and my all-time favorite, if we're that's what we're really asking, is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Hunter S. Thompson is an idol of mine. I think that man is just an incredible author. He makes me want to write better as well, because I I am a journalist freelancer here and there. So, like Hunter S. Thompson being the whole gonzo journalism guy, for me is just incredible. I like gonzo journalism. It's my kind of thing. And Fear of Loathing in Las Vegas is such a surreal book the first time you read it, that it's like, wow, this happened. There was this guy. He absolutely did all of this, and the entire time he was on like 18 different drugs at once. I mean, he's he's just an incredible author and an incredible journalist.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Oh, that's awesome. I haven't read it, and I but you're making it very intriguing to read. Thank you for that recommendation. And I'm really excited for us to get into this conversation.

“I Died” And What He Felt

SPEAKER_04 9:50

And so let's just kick the conversation off with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

You want me to be honest, Lithia? I know I kind of know what happens, at least when I died.

SPEAKER_04 10:00

Yeah, uh wait, hold on. What did you say?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah, when I died.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

Okay, now you're at you you didn't tell me about that part either in the in the application. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Well, I believe that for a little bit of a surprise.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

I thought you would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

I did very much.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I was at a very low point in my life, as you know, a lot of my patients are. I just been broken up with. I was moving to Pennsylvania for this guy. It was it was pretty rough. And so I made a mistake. I uh died in my bathtub, apparently for a few minutes. I got narcans. They were like, Oh yeah, man, you you died. What did you take? And you know, I talked to the nice paramedic and a few other things, and him just being there and being so willing to like sit there and listen. And like I get it, it's his job. Yeah, it's my job too to listen. Like that is a massive part of my job is listening to people.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

It I don't know how to describe it.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

It's trying to think of how to put words into this because I don't talk about this often. And like there are maybe three people who I've spoken to about this. My therapist, my best friend, and like obviously the paramedics, and I don't really count them because it's their job to be there, and so you know.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Yeah, tight circle.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, it was there was nothing. And I'm not sure if it's because I wasn't like brain dead or anything, but there was nothing. And then I woke up and there was someone. There's just something, someone standing over me, and it was a weird experience. Because like obviously, when someone's standing over you in your bathtub, you're not, you know, it's like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah, guys.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

What's happening? I still don't know who called. I'll be honest. I I don't know who called. I don't know how they found me or how they got into my apartments. It was it was a weird, it was a weird experience. And not entirely not really something I'd care to uh repeat anytime soon, as I'm sure you can imagine.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

But like just kind of being in that space, it felt for me it was incredibly lonely, and that might be different for other people. I was at the time incredibly lonely. I was at probably the lowest point in my life. I'd I'd make that argument. And so, like, I don't know. Maybe it's different for other people. I don't know. I'm not particularly religious, not anymore. I I haven't been for quite some time. Yeah, going to a Catholic high school will do that too, yeah. But I think when you die, there is something. I think there is some kind of afterlife.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I'm not sure what kind of afterlife is up there, you know. It's who knows? I don't know what happens. I I just know it happens. And I know that it's like something that we need to talk about more. Death itself, anyways, because like death itself, this is one of my peeves in the job, is say you're 95, you're you have issues, you have a lot of pre-existing health conditions, high blood pressure, dementia, whole nine yards, or and you have a massive heart attack, or you have a massive stroke or something, and you go into cardiac arrest in the hospital, you have a DNR. Say some estranged family member takes you off that DNR because you're a fighter and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

That's something I've seen in my job. And I feel it's because people just don't, I guess they aren't as uh exposed to death as I am. And in a way that feels, I don't want to say selfish, that just feels strange to me.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Like death happens to everyone. It happens, it's gonna happen to you at some point. It could happen today, it could happen tomorrow. As soon as we end this call, you could just heal over. That's like really more than a lot of people. No, I was gonna say, I love you.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

I love that you're saying it because I say this sometimes my friends, and I think I freak them out. I say this to callers sometimes, and it's because of the context of the call, it's less scary. Yeah, but I often am like I could get hit by a car today or tomorrow. There's no guarantees. There, and that is one of many things.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Right. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

No reason. That would make for a great episode, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

So it's like people need to understand that death is it happens. There's really nothing you can do about it.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Now believe me, I can do chest impressions for 30 minutes on Mima while she's you know heeled over in her chair, and we have to move her to the floor and everything because Mima is a fighter and things like that. And like I can do that. I don't like doing it.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Because even if we bring you back, you're gonna be in the most pain you've ever felt in your life.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

Yeah, it's not necessarily I was gonna say it's not very nice on the body. And I've also heard it's not like I don't want to say successful, but it's

Fear Of Death And Impending Doom

SPEAKER_04 14:43

it's not like, oh yeah, 99% of the time it works.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah, no. I mean, and if we do bring you back, God willing, we somehow bring you back from death, yeah, from cardiac arrest before there's any lasting brain trauma or anything like that. You're gonna have broken ribs, whole nine yards of just insane things that are gonna be wrong with you.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And that's not even saying what caused your cardiac arrest. It could have just been all day.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

For all I know, it was your time to go. And I don't say that to families. I should at some point, I should start telling them that. Like, hey, are you sure she wanted you to rip up her DNR or anything?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Are you are you sure she's a fighter?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Because I'll be honest with you, she's 96 and doesn't know where she is.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Yeah, a little bit different situation. I have so many questions for you.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I have as many answers as you want. And I think I like talking about my job.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Perfect. I think almost I want to circle back a little bit. I mean, I think we're totally gonna talk more about the the aspects of your job and and what it looks like because again, you know, I think it's important for people to understand just like you said, that death is going to happen. It's gonna happen to all of us, and we have separated ourselves so much that there's this weird, and I talk about this a lot on here, that we've just kind of made death the enemy. And then that puts ripping up a DNR, it's oh yeah, death is a bad thing, so I'm gonna rip this up. And it's like, yeah, but you're saying all these things can happen. But before we kind of jump to that, what I want to come back to is you really kind of threw me for a little bit of a loop at the very beginning with you saying that you died. I was not expecting that, but but it was almost like there's this kind of clash of these thoughts where you said that there was nothing. And I'm thinking, okay, you know, when I think of what I think happens when we die, it is nothing. Like all the kind of very technical things, and then the synapses stopped firing, we stopped breathing, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it just over. And so I thought that's where you were going at the start. And then you kind of came back and you even said something like, it's not a place that you want to go back to. But then you came back with, you do think that there is something. And so I was like, oh, that's really interesting, because that's not exactly what I thought you were saying. So is there a way to describe that? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

No, the best way I can describe it is just crushing loneliness.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

That's what I felt. Genuinely, that is the best way I can describe it.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

It's just crushing the feeling of nothing. And again, it I almost guarantee it's linked to how I felt mentally at that time.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

That's interesting because I have had other people say similar things to that.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

It was again, I was at probably the lowest point in my life, like far enough.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Lowest point in my life. And the crush the loneliness, the crushing feel that crushing feeling. I almost guarantee it was because like I did feel alone and I was alone at the time.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

I think like I was deeply in love with this guy, you know, and for God's sake, man, I I I turned down a lot of really good opportunities to go to uh Pennsylvania. That sucked. I turned it down to go to a liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania. I turned down the Coast Guard Academy for some context. My dad is a West Point grad, his dad was in the Air Force in Vietnam, his dad was a POW in World War II.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

Oh wow. There's a lineage.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

It's a gener it's a generational thing. And the Coast Guard Academy being like the most difficult one to get into was huge for me. And I turned it down because I was in love. You know, and we do stupid shit when we're in love.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

We do stupid shit, but it's also I mean, we do stupid, we can say it's stupid shit, but I think when we really look at the scope of things, what we do in life, like love is probably one of the best things that we actually do, you know. And of course, I went to the University of Oregon, much different than what you're talking about, not very prestigious or anything, but like that's not something that's really going to be remembered about

DNRs, Family Overrides, And Law

SPEAKER_04 18:55

me. I I honestly don't really think much will be remembered about me. And I don't mean that in a cynical, dark way or anything. I just think just in the logistics of life and the timeline and all that stuff, realistically I won't live my memory won't live much past when I'm around. I know you kind of said that you don't really know, but is there any maybe hopes or thoughts around what that is?

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I hope there is some kind of higher power. Deep down, I do hope so.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

And I I I don't consider myself religious, but I do hope there is something out there after we die. I hope it's not just that, the end.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

You know?

SPEAKER_04 19:35

Yeah. I guess the other question I have off of that is, you know, is there a fear around death? I mean, you've talked about this experience with dying. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Oh god.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

Okay. Because I was gonna say you have this experience with dying.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

There is a enormous fear of death.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Everyone's fear afraid of death. Oh, if they say they're not afraid of death, I'm sorry, they're lying to you. There are two constants in the world, and I I remember this quote fondly. There are two constants, death and taxes, and you can't really escape either of them. Despite how hard you try, you will never be able to escape the long arm of the IRS or something inevitably coming up and just biting you.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

You're gonna bite it at some point. It's gonna happen. And you don't have to necessarily be afraid of it, like terrified of it.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

You can accept your that death is going to be something that comes for you. You can accept all that. And I it's not like I've accepted it. I've gotten comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

You know, it's it's like, hey, yeah, cool. Happened. I need to go and write about this now in graphic detail.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Yeah. It's interesting hearing that because I think a lot of people would think that, oh, you're around death, so you know, it's not a big deal. I would also say a lot of people who come on this who I do calls with say they aren't afraid of death. And I would say I have a similar thought to you is I honestly think everybody's afraid of death. I think it's biologically a feature of being a human.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And I want to add on to that from like a medical perspective. Yeah. You know what we're told to look for?

SPEAKER_04 21:11

What?

SPEAKER_00 21:12

With like severely sick patients, a fear of impending doom. This is a real symptom, is impending doom.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I've had it happen to me before. We were transporting this guy, relatively stable. You know, he said he had some chest pains. We're like, cool, your blood pressure's a little high. I can't read an EKG or interpret one, so I leave that to the paramedics. That's their job. And this is when I was doing my ride-alongs. And like halfway through, he was looking fine, you know, from what I from what I gathered, because the paramedic that I was with in the back was not freaking out and you know, was not telling me, hey, I need you to spike this right now, or hey, I need you to get the med bag and go in there and get some stuff. He was fine and fine enough to transport straight from his home without having to stabilize on scene. And halfway through, this is about a 30 minute. Transfer because you know, middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania. He's like, he looks at me, I'll never forget this. He looks me dead in the face and says, I think I'm about to die. And not even 10 seconds later, he flatlines, like full code. And like, and when he said that, I saw the paramedic look at me, like he gave me that look of like, hey, it's about to get real. You need to like, I don't want to say lock in, but like you need to Yeah, I mean, pretty much you need to lock in like right now.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

And another fun fact, a little tidbit, no one dies in an ambulance. Legally speaking, nobody dies in an ambulance.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

It's when they're when they arrive.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

You're either dead on scene, DRT, dead right there, or you get declared at the uh hospital. But nobody dies in an ambulance.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Interesting. Is there is there a reason for it?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

It is a reason, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

You die in an ambulance, we have to take that out of service for however long. You know, there has to be an investigation. Whole it's a problem.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

So yeah, nobody, nobody dies in an ambulance. Nobody will ever die in an ambulance. That's why they do die in an ambulance, someone screwed up.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

That's interesting. I'm gonna go back to the impending doom

The Violence And Reality Of CPR

SPEAKER_04 23:20

because that's a really fascinating story because I think, and this is a terrible, terrible comparison, but you know, playing sports growing up, I remember like breaking my collarbone at a young age, and I don't even really think I knew what my collarbone was. You know, I heard of it, and I just remember like just knowing and telling my parents, like, I broke my collarbone. We need to go to the hospital, or you know, we need to go to the doctor, whatever we need to do. But it's what you described as that look, you could just tell.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah. So, and there is a difference, and I've noticed this. If they're fine, like completely fine, all things considered. You're not, you, you know, X A B C's are fine, no external bleeding that can't hasn't been controlled, your airways clear, you're breathing, and you're circulating, right? And you look at them while being fine and you say, I'm going to die, that's when we get concerned. But if you're like stubbed your toe, because we do get toe pain calls, those are never fun. Because you know, those waste our time, they waste city resources, whole mine yards.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

It's like, sure you are, man. Let's let's get you to a hospital now. Because there is a difference. There's a difference between someone freaking out and someone genuinely feeling that sense of impending doom.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Which is actually, I bothered looking it up, and yeah, it's heart attacks. Heart attacks will cause a sense of impending doom.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Huh. You just know deep down somehow.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah. Uh-huh. And it oh, and anaphylaxis, that too.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

Okay. That's wild. I I mean, I guess now we are kind of more into the medical side of things. Yeah. How has that kind of played into your thoughts around death? You talked about when you were in Pennsylvania, like every call, or not every call, but like every day, there was like a death.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Every shift. Every shift. Yeah, every shift went on.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

How does that play into your fears around death, but also just like how you look at life? Because again, that is so different than the majority of people.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Death for me is just it happens. There's realistically there's nothing that I can do to stop it.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

I can eat healthy, and I'm I am eating healthier. I have all my doctor's appointments scheduled for like a few weeks out. Cool. It's the new year, you know. I have insurance. Great. And like I can delay it as much as I can, but at some point I'm gonna be in the back of that ambulance.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I don't know when. I don't know how. I just know it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

That's something that we're all gonna face. And yeah, I think I think that's especially why I'm trying to do this because I've I felt in ways strange, like I think about it more than anybody else. And maybe not anybody else, but I do think I think about it a lot more than most people. Probably not more than you.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

But I in you know, but you know what's funny is I don't even really think about it.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

When I'm not at work, I have I'm pretty decent at compartmentalizing. When I'm not at work, I don't think about it.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

You probably have to to some extent, right? To you have to compartmentalize it. It'd be overwhelming not to.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah, it would. And there are people who get into this line of work and they see it happen the first time or they see like a traumatic incident, or God forbid, they see a PEEDS case and they just realize they're not cut out for it.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

And like I'll admit, yeah, I probably have some form of post-traumatic stress here and there. I'm an insomniac, you know, I've got a whole plethora of issues. Cool, great. Who doesn't? Right? I just don't think about it when I'm not at work.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

It's genuinely not something that I think about at all unless I'm forced to. If I am forced to think about it outside of work, then I'm basically I'm working again.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

And who wants to do that?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I like my time off. My time off is sacred. I will not answer your phone. If you call me for work reasons and I'm not working, I more than likely will not answer that phone call. It's not because I don't want to, it's that my time is sacred to me. I wouldn't change what I do for the world.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

I like that. I like hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

But at the same time, I'm not coming in on my day off because someone got sick. You can go and have someone else do that who needs the overtime more than I do. Yeah, to be honest, I'm living fairly comfortably right now.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

Do you see yourself doing this forever? And forever is a long time, but you know, for the foreseeable future, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah. My options right now are offensive cybersecurity contracting, which that was not fun. They paid well, but man, I felt miserable doing it. Stayed at this, and I'm looking at getting my advanced EMT very soon. I'm starting that course in I think about a week.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Oh, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I had this pathological need to help people.

Coping, Compartmentalizing, And The Job

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Are there things that you feel like people should know about death and dying that they don't?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I think people should know especially the people who rip up DNRs and are like, Nemo's a fighter, Peepaw's a fighter, and stuff like that. I want them to know that like it's gonna happen. It might not happen. If we bring them back, it might not happen immediately. But chances are it's gonna happen on the way to the hospital, or it's gonna happen in the hospital.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Or a week later, but yeah, it's not gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

It doesn't you're and if it is a week later, they're going to be in in extreme pain on a bunch of tubes all the time. Yeah, constant monitoring. It's not that's not living, not for them.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

Yeah. I've referenced this book a couple of times. It's called Die Wise. And he in that book kind of talks about in those situations, you're not prolonging living, you're prolonging dying. You know, it's not, it's not what you think. And and I think we have this idea that we have all these medical advancements, and we do. We can do amazing things, but at some point we are gonna die. It's you know, I love the Mima and Peepah, like they're not gonna live forever. It's just it's not gonna work. And so, yeah, it's I think that's definitely I can't imagine you as you're just sitting there biting your tongue, right? You know, it's like that's not what they wanted. That's not what they wanted.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I've wanted to say some stuff.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

And I've gotten really close on uh multiple occasions. I've gotten extremely close to being like, they didn't want this. And something I do do, and I I has drawn some ire from certain people and and who I've worked with before.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

They need to sit there and watch the entire thing. You watch me break her ribs.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

Yeah, you can't leave the room.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

I don't want you to leave the room. I want you to stay and I want you to see what you did, see what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

This is your doing. And if they come back, they ask why. I'm going to tell them it was you. And I've done it before. Now, this person was not a did not have dementia. She, I'm gonna keep it, you know, HIPAA classified.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

She was like eight, she was like eighty something, had a DNR because she had pre-existing health issues. Family member comes in is like, hey, no, you have to bring her back. And we are legally required by law to do that. If some family member says that, we have to do it. That's so wild. We got Rosk. We got return of spontaneous circulation, and we got Rosk, and she asked why. And I told her. I told her pretty explicitly, Hi, my name's so and so. I'm an EMT. I'm here to uh, you know, I I just brought you back. Do you know where you are? Do you know what your name is, etc. You know, I have to see if they're listening oriented. And she was like, Why? Why did you bring me back? And I told her I had to legally required by law, I am supposed to uh do that because we suddenly did not have a DNR on file and we couldn't confirm it. So you want to blame someone, blame them.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

And man.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

So I'm super curious. Is there a way to prevent that? Is there any way to prevent a family member from ripping it up from bypassing it? Like, is that is there anything that you can do?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Me personally, no. There's nothing I can do. You multiple copies, but outside of that, no. If they want you brought back, we are required by law to bring you back.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Maybe I'll get tattooed on my chest.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

See, I've been tempted to do that. I actually have plans to do that.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Really?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

And get a physician to sign it. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

That doesn't sound like a terrible idea. Because I yeah, I wouldn't want that, someone breaking my ribs, and and I'm glad that you

What People Should Know About Dying

SPEAKER_04 32:20

mentioned that. It is not a pleasant process because I've I've I've heard that.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

The most violent thing you can do to a person. That is my genuine belief, is it is one of the most violent things I can do in the medical field.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

And that is not the perception for the masses, right? You know, we see the little like training dummies, right? Oh, yeah, you know, you just do it to the beat and like whatever, you know, like you know what you don't feel with the training dummies?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

You don't feel the ribs crap.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

You don't hear them, and you'll hear it too. It is a distinct sound.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

It sounds like little, you know those uh plastic wrap ball things that are like filled with air?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

And like you put it in with your packages and yeah, that's kind of what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

And I know that's like a really screwed up thing to say, and just drop on someone at almost six in the in the evening, but like that's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Well, I'm not gonna look at the that that stuff the same anymore.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Like that's what it sounds like, and it's it's a weird sound, and it's an even weirder feeling.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Because the first time I had to do CPR, I was, I mean, I'll tell you, I'll tell you the first thing. I was not ready for it. I was not doing full compressions and like good compressions.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Well, because you wouldn't imagine that that's what you'd have to do, right? If you're going into it for your first time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And I saw the par the paramedic like looked at me and was like, you need to be doing deeper compressions, like right now.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

And I was like, Are you sure?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

All right. And he was like, Yeah, if you start cracking ribs, you'll know you're doing well. Because effectively what CPR is, is you are pushing their sternum down to manually start their heart. It's like trying to jump start a car in a way with your hands. No, push start, push, start, yeah. Push shut a car.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

It's rough. It's uh it's a not a great feeling, especially if you're not ready for it that first time. And I say I don't I even think a lot of people who do those CPR courses, they don't know that. So they're not gonna do adequate chest compressions, adequate depths, none of that, which is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Well, I'm glad that you've shared that with all of us now. I heard that in a class that I took last year, and I was like, oh yeah, I had no idea. And so yeah, it's you know, I'm on I'm on the Pacific coast, so it's not quite as late for me. And who knows when people listen to this, what time they'll be listening to it. And yeah, it's graphic, but like you said, it's an important thing to know because yeah, you know, is that really what you want to be doing to your 80-year-old grandma or whatever? Um, so yeah, I I appreciate you you sharing that. I do have one last question for you if you're up for it.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Hey, I'm not doing anything else for I am.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

So, what's one thing you still want to experience in this life?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I want to travel the Middle East. I had a friend in Syria. He's currently in Myanmar right now as a foreign volunteer with the rebel forces. I I guess is the best way I can put it. He's a I look up to him quite a bit. Because he graduated high school and immediately, like he was 18, he went to Syria to go and fight for the uh Syrian Democratic Forces, and I believe he was in the I can't quite recall what group he was in and part of, but now he's an instructor, he's a sniper instructor for I believe the Kharani Defense Forces. I can't quite recall. And I I'd like to visit Syria. I'd like to visit Syria, I'd like to visit Palestine, I'd like to visit Lebanon, especially, but Syria has always been very up there for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

When it comes to like where

Hopes, Travel, And A Wider Life

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I want to go.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

That's awesome. I love your an anomaly. How many people do you think would say, Oh, yeah, my dream is to go to Syria, Lebanon, Palestine? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

I think there's such a rich history there.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I you know, and like once everything kind of dies down there a little, I do plan on visiting Syria. I plan on visiting at some point Damascus. Damascus is like honestly, number one on my bucket list of places I'd like to visit.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

I understand quite a bit of Arabic. Um I credit that to having spent some time in Indonesia where I do actually still understand and somewhat speak Bahasa, which is a really interesting language. Hey, I live there, you know, I didn't really have a choice.

SPEAKER_04 36:46

But still, so impressive.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

I'd like to visit Damascus. I'd like to visit the Kurdish areas because I want to learn Kurdish. I mean, for God's sake, I live in Nashville. Nashville, little known fact, is the Kurdish capital of the USA. Really? 15,000 Kurdish people living here.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

There's a little Kurdistan, actually. Um I go there quite frequently for uh food and whatnot when I have the opportunity. That's awesome. That's amazing. Not a lot of people know. Yeah, not a lot of people know. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

I wouldn't have guessed, you know, if someone asked me that and it's like what city in the United States, yeah, Nashville would not have been my guess. I don't know what my guess would have been, but Nashville wouldn't have been it.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

No, absolutely. It's it's pretty funny. It's it's like, wow.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Yeah, that's that's wild. I don't know how long it's gonna take for you to get out there, but when you do, I want to hear about it. I hope you message me. We'll definitely have to stay in touch. But yeah, again, I just want to send a ton of gratitude your way for doing this, for being willing to talk to a complete stranger who is just trying to figure out things about death. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

I think that's what makes it easier for me.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

That's what a lot of people have said.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Like a complete stranger.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

Yeah, I've I've gotten that a couple times, and I'm like, I can see how that would be easier. I think from my perspective, I'm like, yeah, but I know me and I'm weird. Why would anybody want to talk to me? But yeah, I'm just so grateful that you're willing to jump on the call, share your stories, surprise me with your little death story. You get some sort of award for that. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

No, of course. Anytime, really. I I feel that talking about this and kind of demystifying death does my job a service in a way. Cause God willing, people stop trying to keep people who shouldn't be alive alive.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Well poor phrasing, but no, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

I think with all the context of what we've just talked about, I think it'll make sense. And I'll keep on trying to do what I can do to to make your life easier. I don't know how well of a job I'll do, but I'll keep on trying. Well, thank you. I hope you have a good rest of your day. And uh yeah, let's definitely stay in touch.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

100%.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

All right, well, take care.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

You too.

Host Reflection And Takeaways

SPEAKER_04 39:08

I really appreciate how this call stays in the real world of it. Not just the big idea of death, but what it looks like when death is part of the job. The practical decisions, the messy moments, the things that get done to a body in the name of saving it, even when saving it isn't what someone would have wanted. And one thing I want to continue to underline is the point the caller made about wishes. It's not enough to hope people will know what you mean. In the moment, fear and love can take over. Families can disagree, decisions get made fast, and even when someone has been clear, those wishes can still get overridden. After we stopped recording, the caller and I stayed on the phone for a bit and just talked. Like I've mentioned before, that happens a lot. Sometimes we talk about the call some more, sometimes we talk about how to start a podcast. This time we got into movies and TV shows that actually portray life as an EMT well. The show The Pit came up and I started watching after a call. What was really interesting is how quickly it runs straight into the exact thing we'd been talking about in the call. A person's wishes are clear and the people closest to them can't tolerate it. They override it, not because they're evil, but because they're terrified. It was a really good reminder that this isn't abstract. This is the kind of situation that shows up everywhere. If this call brought up anything for you, maybe the simplest takeaway is this. Talk about it with people in your life. Ask what they want, say what you want, then write it down. And before we go, last week I shared a little bit more about mimostony and I said I'd have a website ready. Momostheny is a side project I've been building. It's a way for me to help people tell their stories while they're still here to tell them. If you want to learn more, it's mnemostheny.com and I'll drop a link in the show notes. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel left alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWedietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next

CTAs, Resources, And Closing

SPEAKER_04 41:30

time, have a good life.