Anonymous #31 — What Happens If There's No 'You' Left to Be Afraid of Death?

This week's caller has been sitting with death since childhood. They grew up deep inside Pentecostal religion, the shouting, the standards, the constant weight of what comes next, and instead of finding comfort there, they left with more questions than answers. They've been chasing those questions ever since. 

This is a conversation about ego, identity, and why the thing afraid of dying might not even be you.

We talk about growing up in a religious household and what happens when you rebel your way into actually thinking for yourself, the idea that "authentic personality" is a contradiction because the word personality comes from persona, which means mask. We get into reincarnation, not the hopeful kind, but the honest kind: consciousness continues, the ego doesn't. And the caller makes a case that death isn't just okay. It's necessary. Without it, nothing means anything.

In this conversation:

• Growing up Pentecostal and what that does to a kid who can't stop thinking about death
• Why the caller stopped calling themselves an atheist and what they believe instead
• The ego as the thing that panics and what's left when you start subtracting it
• Their version of reincarnation: the consciousness returns, but you don't, and why that's actually fine
• Why they believe death gives life its meaning and the thought experiment they used to make that case to a believer
• How psychedelics and long stretches of solitude helped them stop fearing and start accepting

A few lines from the call:

• "It sounds like you've been in an existential crisis since you were a child." What their therapist said, and why it tracked.
• "I'm nobody and it's not a bad thing. It's a liberating thing."
• "On psychedelics, I'm more ready to die than at any other time."

Book recommendations: The Book of Enoch 

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

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Transcript

Cold Open And The Big Question

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I always tell people, I'm like, man, on psychedelics or on mushrooms, you know, like, I'm more ready to die than ever on psychedelics.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

You know, if if you were like, hey, you have to die right now, I would be like, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here.

Nemostheny Audio Keepsake Sponsor

SPEAKER_03 0:49

This episode is supported by Nemostheny, a project I've been building alongside this podcast. Nemostheny is a simple way to tell your story in your own voice. It's a guided, audio-first conversation with me where we capture the parts of your life that matter to you, where you came from, the people who shaped you, the seasons that changed you, and the moments you don't want to lose. It's not therapy and it's not a performance. It's just a real conversation that becomes a private audio keepsake you can share with the people you love or keep for yourself. If you want to learn more, you can find it at nomostony.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N E.com.

Non-Duality And Why This Call

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. This week's conversation goes somewhere a little bit different. Most calls on the show are rooted in grief or fear or loss. Some kind of weight the collar is carrying. This one's more philosophical, and it always amazes me when these calls show up at a very similar time to when I'm exploring similar ideas myself. Maybe coincidence, maybe something more synchronistic. I've been diving deep in my studies around non-duality lately. This idea that the self we think we are isn't really what we think it is. And then this caller shows up, and within a few minutes we're knee-deep in ego, identity, and what exactly the you even is that's afraid of dying. They've been thinking about death since they were a child. Their therapist once told them it sounded like they'd been in an existential crisis since childhood. And their response was basically, yeah, that tracks. But what's wild is they're not tortured by it. They found their way through it. And the path they took through religion, through rebellion, through psychedelics, through weeks alone fighting wildflowers with nothing but their own thoughts led them somewhere genuinely interesting. At one point they say that when they're on psychedelics, they're more ready to die than at any other time. And in a way that actually makes sense by the time they explain it. This one's gonna make you think about who's actually doing the fearing. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy.

A Lifelong Existential Crisis

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

It's going good. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 2:55

I'm doing okay. I'm gonna try to be better about answering that question uh a little bit more honestly, and I'm a little sleep deprived. I don't know. I feel like I've been doing this dance of like if I take something to help me sleep, then I feel groggy all morning. But if I don't take something, then I can't fall asleep, and then I'm tired in the afternoon. So I don't know, I'm just in this weird space, but I know I uh had to change it up on you a couple times and I was like, I can't do it another time. So if I say something stupid, you can call me out on it, and if it's really, really stupid, then I'll just edit it out or something. But that's kind of where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, no. Uh no, it's you and me both. Uh I've been up since like 4 30 or something this morning.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Okay, yeah. So so that we could get into some weird territory here. I mean, we're already gonna go into weird territory, but like, you know, this could be the sleep deprivation uh episode, but I'm so grateful that you're willing to do this. And we have a wonderful setup with our sleep deprivation. So maybe briefly you could just let me know why you even wanted to do a call about death.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

No, uh, that's that's a great question. Um, I am maybe I'm just like a weird person, but I've always obviously well I I don't know why I say obviously, because like you said, most people, this is not a subject that most people are really into, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Obviously, in your head, you know, the person that you talk to all the time knows, obviously, but yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying. Because I feel like I'm the same, but continue.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it it's it's a subject that I I've um kind of been obsessed with for most of my life. I went to a therapist many, many years ago, and I I the thing that she said that stuck with me, she was like, it sounds like that you've been in an existential crisis since you've been a child.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

That's what you want a therapist to say.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I was like, oh well, well, you know what? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

That actually tracks, you know. So yeah, I I was listening to the show. I don't really even remember how I came across the show, but I was like, wow, this is really cool. I don't even remember what episode I was listening to, but I was like, man, I have something to say about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Ah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Uh so here we are.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Here we are. Yeah, after again, I keep on bringing it up. I I think it's because I feel so bad that I've had to cancel on you a couple times, but we we made it work. And I don't know, a lot of the things that you just said are things that I have felt as well. You know, like I do feel like a weird person. I love that like you ended it with, I have something to say. I love that. But since you have listened, I guess you probably know the format a little bit. Maybe we can kind of get to know you, keeping the anonymity and everything. Maybe like city state where you live or where you're calling from or whatever works there, and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So I live in Tucson, Arizona.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I am originally from Jacksonville, North Carolina.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Um my favorite book, I would say probably either the Book of Enoch or The Psychology of Influence. I don't remember the author.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

But those are two books that I remember vividly. That or maybe not favorite, but probably the most like life-changing sort of trajectory changing book. Again, might sound odd, but the satanic Bible.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I read that when I was a when I was a teenager, obviously, to be cool and edgy, but and then just felt really seen or something. Like a really great book.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

I love that. I that that is definitely not where I thought you were gonna go with that. And what what what about it kind of like was so profoundly like life-changing about it for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

So like little backstory.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

I have. I don't I don't know what any of the different like branches of anything means, but I've had I have heard of a lot of things, but I'm like, yeah, I I have no background.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Yeah, no, so Pen Pentecostal is kind of like the crazy holy roller sort of, you know, the dancing and the shouting and the you know, the whole the whole bit. The whole thing, yeah. And in a lot of, you know, odd sort of standards, like women can't wear pants or cut their hair, or you know, my mom made my my older brother when he was little, she made him wear only long sleeve turtlenecks, uh, because those were like modest.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

But um, you're like, I haven't I haven't worn a turtleneck in my life since bad memories.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, no kidding. But yeah, so that was like that's kind of the background. So, like in my childhood, it was kind of like a I was like a big rebel. So I was like, you know what, I'm not doing any of this nonsense. Like, I'm gonna, you know, my parents were like, never listen to Marilyn Manson. I was like, I'm gonna listen to Marilyn Manson. They were like, don't smoke weed. I was like, I'm getting some weed, you know. So that was just kind of like I think the initial sort of reason why I was like, oh, let me get into like Satanism, because that, you know, the aesthetic of that is like so cool and like edgy, you know. But then when you like sort of get into the book, it's really sort of this like humanist idea of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Yeah, not what and not what most people would think it is about.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, it's funny because you say satanic Bible and people go, ooh, you know, yeah. But really, it has some really cool sort of like practical ideas and like sort of humanist ideas in it, which kind of set my life on like a, you know, kind of now that I think of it, kind of built like the base of like my core personality, I guess, or beliefs, perhaps. I've never really thought of it for a long time, so it's interesting to say that.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

I feel like that's that happens often when you start kind of like looking back on things throughout your life, and it's like, oh yeah, that did have a little bit of a trajectory. And I and I usually don't really go into the books that much, but I'm like, this feels like it kind of plays into the conversation, and it sounds like it's actually going to be helpful background as we kind of dive in. And

Death As Nonexistence And Ego

SPEAKER_03 9:13

and maybe this is a good point to just kind of dive in with the big question of what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

So what I think happens.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I love people who make the dis the very strong distinction of emphasizing think versus hope or something like that. I love that that uh that start.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I emphasize that because a lot of people pretend to know or something like that. And I don't like to pretend to know anything at all, you know. I just think a lot, and I I don't think about facts or non-facts. What I think happens is probably something very similar to when I cease to exist, it's probably something very similar to what happened before I existed at all. Before I was born. I didn't mind not being born, yeah, right. So pretty much it. Yeah, as far as like, you know, and I could really like kind of delve into like the the general idea of this thing of like it's going to be me as in my ego, the thing that I believe to be me, yeah, not existing, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Yeah. If I break it down even more, as you say, I'm like there tightening up over here. I'm like panic, anxiety, fear, and you're like, oh yeah, this is no big deal. Like, this is why I started this, and you're like, Yeah, I just I just ceased to exist. My ego, myself, yeah, that thing's gone. And I'm like, uh, hold on, breathe, breathe. Sorry, continue.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, it was no, no, that's valid and like relevant, but there's like a quote, and I don't know who said it. I don't know who said it. Maybe it was from some philosopher somewhere, but it was something to the effect of when I die, I hope that death finds me already obliterated or or or dead, basically. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

I feel like I remember this quote, but yeah, I can't remember who it is either. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah, I can't remember who it is, but it's like, yeah, it's like when I die, I hope that death finds me realizing that I didn't exist in the first place, uh, is how I interpret that.

SPEAKER_04 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Right? Yeah, totally. So when it gets there, I don't mind dying because it's like, well, it was never me.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah. Um I think that introduces an a very interesting uh I don't know if premise is the right word, but the fun thing about this conversation is it's inevitable that you're gonna go into stuff about ego, self, consciousness, identity, and then also stuff like what is real? What's is this an illusion? How does that all parse out? And so, yeah, that's that's interesting context there.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Right. Yeah, yeah. All questions that I've been pondering since I was like five years old, I think.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Man, I wish we would have been friends back then, you know, playing in the sandbox talking about death. Nobody else wanted to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Well, and you know, you know what's the funny part is I don't think that's normal for a kid.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

But but it might have been, I think it was probably part of like growing up religious, where death is really a core part of most religions, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Yeah, it's prominent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Frankly, that's why people are there, yeah. Yeah, totally to make sure, you know, death doesn't find them flipping. So yeah, I I'm sorry, I got lost there.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

No, I mean that's we're all over the place in in great ways. I don't even think there was necessarily a question or anything. I I but I'm curious about like your fears and thoughts there, but also that quote is really landing hard with me because it is something that I think about a lot of like not only what am I, but what is this whole thing that we're a part of? And again, not really a succinct question, but if you have something there, awesome. If you don't, I can probably come up with a specific question for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, so I love the question, what am I? It's or who am I, right? It's one of those like very if you ask people that, oh yeah, and you try to get a real, real answer, you're gonna get really, really fidgety people. Like people are that makes people really fidget and kind of like and people take this the wrong way when I'm like, oh, I'm nobody.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Yeah. You know, no, you're somebody. You're important, nobody you're you're great in this, you know. Yeah, totally. It's it's it sends up like a lot of like signal. Like there's a flare, you know, we gotta SOS help this person because they don't think they're anybody.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Right, right. And it's not a bad thing, it's not a negative thing at all. That's the thing that actually around it is realizing, yeah, it's like it's it's a liberating thing to to know that I'm not anything at all, and I don't have to be anything, you know.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

And to kind of the other part of your question when you're asked about like my fears and and stuff when it comes to this subject, is that's complicated because at one point in my life, it just absolutely terrified me to like no end, actually, like legitimately to the point of like damn near maybe like panic attacks or something.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

That's how I started this. You didn't start a podcast in a project. What did you do? What are your secrets? Because sometimes I'm like, what the what am I doing with my life? What am I doing?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I should I should have started the podcast, right? This was part of like why in my life I've been so obsessed with like psychology and religion and all of these sort of like esoteric sort of ideas, yeah. Because I think initially that was like looking for what happens when we die, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, what's the answer?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

That was the initial question, you know. Yeah, because yeah, it is terrifying because like that part of you, like your ego that believes you are something, you know, it believes that I am me. Yeah you know, yeah, and that's all it knows thing, it's scared. It's like it that's all it knows, and it's like I don't want to not exist.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Yeah, I can't comprehend that, so that must be really, really bad.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, and and it really comes down to like I don't I don't think you have to comprehend it, or I don't think there you have answers at all. And really

Consciousness, Programming, And Reincarnation

SPEAKER_00 15:21

it's like I've been kind of pondering this I idea of reincarnation, right? Yeah, because part of what I part of what I do is like I actually have like a fairly popular social media like talking about esoteric things.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Oh sweet. You're gonna have to share with that with me after.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Oh yeah, yeah. But this is something that I'm like not only just pondering for fun, but I'm like pondering stuff for like videos and like you know, thinking about ideas and X, Y, and Z. And I've been thinking about this idea of like reincarnation and how I believe that it's real, but not in the very hopeful way that people believe it is.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

I mean, I I I would love to hear your version of it because I feel like anything that we want to have happen next is very hopeful and sunshiny and very wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

I I get you because you know, you know, it's like one of those things where people are like, oh, you can go to heaven and live forever. You can be reincarnated. I'm like, yeah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Appreciate the offer, but uh I'll just take a nap forever. I'm I'm good. This this one is this one is good enough.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, I got my film.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Don't don't threaten me with that, you know. But my version of sort of like reincarnation, because I'm I'm also really into like science and stuff too. I'm obsessed with all kinds of fun stuff, but the idea of you know, like my core belief is that what people believe to be God is sort of like this underlying source of consciousness, and I believe that everything is conscious, right? Like almost as in like everything is sort of an organism in a way, and and you can see that with everything, like everything has some sort of design, some sort of like thing, right? But it's not like God, as in like the biblical God or something like that, where he's like uh you know, uh bearded man in the sky, you know, going like, hey, don't covet your neighbor's wife, you know. Um don't do that. Yeah, not good, not good. But it's funny because I used to call myself like an atheist, right? Yeah, but I I've come to a point where I'm like, uh, I can't really call myself an atheist anymore because I just believe that God is like this underlying sort of consciousness that like is projected into all living and even what we may perceive to be non-living things, right? Yeah, and then like when we get here and we're born and we learn things and we learn our name and we learn what we're supposed to do or not do, and X, Y, and Z, and we become programmed, right? That's basically I have children, that's what we do. Yeah, we're basically programming, you know. This is what you do, this is what you don't. Make sure you don't cover covet your neighbor's wife. Yeah, don't cover your neighbor's wife, you know. And I don't know if you know anything about programming language, but it's pretty much the same thing. It's like yeah, if this, then this, yeah, you know, yeah, that's a good point. Right, yeah. So then we get like our programming, and then we become under this sort of illusion that I am separate from everything, yeah. Like I am me, and everything else is this, yep, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

That's the like that's the fun illusion, right? Is like, oh, I'm separate from everything, but that's not really the case. Yeah, so when it comes to like reincarnation, it's like it's some part of you will exist, like the core consciousness will exist because it exists everywhere in all things. It's just you as the ego will no longer exist, right? Yeah, and that's when we come to like reincarnation, where people say, even if you want to talk about heaven, because when people talk about heaven, that's basically a form of reincarnation. Like in the Bible, it says, when you go to heaven, and this is something people really overlook. This is one of the most overlooked things, but in the Bible it says when you go to heaven, you're not going to remember anything or anyone on earth or whatever. I I forget the verse, so I forget that it's been a while since I've I've seen it, but essentially that's the gist of the verse is it's saying, like, when you get to heaven, you're not gonna remember anything, essentially. And it's kind of the same thing with like reincarnation when people talk about reincarnation. Oh, you get reincarnated as a cow, you're not gonna remember your human life. You get reincarnated as another person, you don't remember your last life, right? Yeah, how many lives do you remember? So, it in a sense, like that's the core of what I'm I'm saying is like sure you'll be reincarnated, it's just the ego that thinks that it's you won't be there, yeah. Right? Yeah, totally. Like the core consciousness will come back as something else, but but you, the thing that you think is you, just is gone forever.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

It's almost impossible if you start talking about this in a very philosophical way that you're not gonna jump into things like consciousness, self, identity, ego, all those things. But what I've been like looking into, like I said, non-duality and stuff, how much of Zach that exists here right now is that programming that you're talking about? And if I started stripping that away, how far down do I go before I find the true nugget of ego of self? Or do you just get down to that base consciousness and it is, you know, you're just kind of part of everything in a way. So yeah, this is all fascinating to me because this is definitely stuff I've been thinking about. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

That's the thought experiment. I love I love asking people that question, especially, you know, if we're doing mushrooms or you know, yeah, on some sort of you know, on some sort of substance. I love pulling that out because it's like you can name a lot of things off, like even if you think right now, you can name things off. Like I can name, I can tell you my name, I can tell you where I'm from, yeah. I can tell you my things that I like, what I do for work, but none of those things are me. Which one of those things were you? You which one?

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Oh yeah. It just brings up some really interesting things of yeah, identity and self. Yeah, I love that you've kind of tackled some of the same things. I think when you have thought about death since childhood and it keeps kind of coming back up, I think it's really hard not to have these thoughts about how you exist in this world and what your place is in this world and what that means in the big picture of things.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

It's all very interconnected. You don't get you don't get one without the other. Uh it's it's all kind of a big circle. It's a it's it's a tangled web. Oh yeah, for sure. Oh, the tangled webs we weave.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Persona Masks And No-Self Living

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Um I think one of the like funniest phrases that I hear nowadays is authentic personality.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Or you you'll hear this like, oh, they're a really authentic person, or they're they're real, you know.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

And I it's kind of funny to me now because even just the word personality comes from the word persona, which comes from the word mask.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It's it's to wear a mask. Yeah. So they're just really good at wearing the mask. I have an authentic. Yeah, it's like I have an authentic personality. It's like, oh, their mask is really good.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah, their mask is trustworthy. Yeah. That's they're gonna play the part really well. I know what to expect from this person.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Right. And it's kind of it's kind of funny because it's like we are really just playing a part. It's like I I'm a base consciousness that put on a mask, the mask is me. Yeah, and now I I'm playing this part, right? We're all playing our part. We're you know, we're a bit of performers, and I think a lot of like mental anguish around death and just about life in general kind of goes away when you accept that fact and start kind of consciously playing the part and understanding, like, oh, this is a mask. Like I'm playing a part. I can I can even change my mask anytime that I want. I can move in and out of situations in the world in a much freer way when I understand that I'm just wearing the mask. Like this is it's not me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

I think about I think about those random, because it was not always this way. I think it was like the random every like 30 episodes, it felt like it was like this with Scooby-Doo. Maybe this is a weird reference, but like at the very end of the episode. So this'll this will resonate, hopefully. But like every so often, they'd like pull off the mask at the end, and they'd be like, Janitor Steve? How could it be janitor Steve? And it's like, no, that's another mask. And they like just kind of keep on, it's like, oh yeah, this person's wearing like four or five masks. And that's sometimes how I think about it too, is it's like we are really, or we've gotten programmed and we wear these masks, but over time we're just adding other masks on top of it too.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And like you're adding other masks, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

And of course, they, you know, it's not as simple as like, oh, I'm gonna pull off this one mask, and now okay, I'm down a layer and I'm getting closer. Like they are interwoven, as we were just saying, and and the tangled web we weave, but it is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

No, that is a concept that I I I've been more aware of because I I have a brother, he's my older brother, and we talk fairly often, and he's big into like self-improvement and stuff, especially later.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Who who isn't right now?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

And yeah, who isn't right now, right? But self-improvement takes on a different air when you're realize that there is no self. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Yeah, which which which one of the cells are you trying to improve?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, which one, right? Or as Alan Watts said something, he said, you can't improve because the one who wants to improve is the one that isn't improved.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Right? Yeah, totally. It's kind of like this weird inception idea. Yeah. But back to my brother is kind of that idea, is like he's always talking about like self-improvement, like, oh, I'm reading books and I'm doing this and I'm learning this and learning this. And and he said something that like hit my ear kind of weird, which was he was like, Yeah, I just have to keep adding stuff. I just have to keep adding discipline and adding this and adding that and adding that.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I gotta max out my character.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah, I gotta like max out my character. And and I was a little delicate with him possibly, but I felt to like kind of admonish him on that, where I was like, I don't think you need to add anything at all. Life gets easier the more we take away, right? Yeah, the more I eliminate myself, the easier my life gets, and the easier things come to me. I don't have to like have this sort of like grind set mentality, like, oh, I have to get things done, you know. Like I have to get things done with my life, you know. Like I can just actually just enjoy my life and realize that all the things that I think are important aren't that important and and things come as they come, and I'm not making it out alive, so I don't have anything to worry about, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's the weird So that is something to like where people think it's like, oh, I have to add, add, add. It's like, oh please take a little off at the at a time, you know, like take a little away at a time, and then you'll kind of get to this point where you're like, Whoa, I'm here, yeah, you know, and you kind of stop looking into the future and like worrying about the future and worrying about when you're gonna die and worrying about your bills and whatever it may be, and like kind of that trauma from the past or whatever. Like, you take enough stuff away and you kind of like end up right here, right now, you know, and with some with a lot of acceptance now, right, with a lot of acceptance in it, and it's like right here, right now is an eternity. Yeah, there is always now. Yeah, now is the only thing that exists, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

I've got a couple tattoos on my arm that are based on that exact thing. Because yeah, that's that's all we that's all we get. But yeah, there's this mentality of I've got to optimize, I've got to make myself better. And I'm trying to figure out how to say this, but there's definitely stuff that like you're saying that we like, you know, subtraction helps too, but I think in some ways the way that that can manifest for people is well, there's this bad thing about myself that I don't like. So to get rid of it, I have to max out the opposite direction. So if like, I don't know, you have to max out the opposite direction. Yeah, it's like I that's how I'm gonna balance it versus being like, hey, you know what? Like I can just kind of like let things settle instead of there being constant movement all the time and and landing in that place of acceptance. Maybe a good way to kind of bring it back in a little bit is you did say, you know, we only get we don't get out of this alive to kind of bring it back to like the death lens of things. What changed for you to go from this kind of fearful place growing up? And it sounds like it was just this journey of exploration and ultimately like learning a lot about yourself and how you exist in this world.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Yeah, yeah.

Psychedelics And New Mental Pathways

SPEAKER_00 28:16

That and psychedelics.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

I feel like I downplay it a lot, honestly, because I like to I like to be like, oh, I did all of this on my own, you know. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

The ego again, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Yeah, my ego's like, eh, don't tell them about the lots of psychedelic trips that you've taken that's really helped, but but that's something that's actually helped a lot.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

And in the connectedness, or yeah, what and in what way?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah, so I'll I'll put it in two different ways. So I would say the first way that I think psychedelics have helped me is with just pure and simple like neuroplasticity. Psychedelics do like this thing where I heard somebody explain it like your mind is kind of like a hill full of snow, right? That's covered in snow. And and your thoughts are like a sled. And every time you think something, you go down in the sled, you go down in the sled, you go down in the sled, and you and you kind of build this groove, right? And it's very hard to like get out of that groove once that groove is so deep in the snow, and something that like psychedelics does is it gives you fresh powder again, where like you can take that, you can take that same path if you want. Yeah, but there's the the grooves are fresh now. Yeah, so you can kind of choose to go, like, oh, I'm gonna like I'm gonna start. Yeah, you're not completely locked in.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah, totally. I like that analogy.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Right. It kind of gives you that like that freedom to sort of like, okay, I'm I'm out of the groove, like I can choose something a little different now, like I can take a slightly different path like mentally than I did before.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

There's that sort of avenue that it really helps. And then the other avenue, personally, for me, is like because I'm not really a partier or anything when it comes to psychedelics. Like, I'm not a person who wants to like go go to a party or a rave and like I don't think that would be very fun.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

I that would I think that would stress me out too much. I'm like, yeah, I would rather do this isolated.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

I know people, yeah, no, like I I know people that are like, oh yeah, that would be fun. Let's like let's do psychedelics and go out on the town. And I'm like, no, no, I don't think my brain can handle that.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I'm like, I want to be at home under my blinkies, you know. I don't want to do any of that. So that's been kind of the advantage um both with psychedelics and just in my life in general. I've had like these opportunities to be alone, like truly alone, like physically alone with no one around for hours and days and weeks for work and stuff. Like I worked on the last couple of years, I've been working on wildfires and things like that, where I'm really just alone for weeks on end. I'll go whole days without people's nightmares, or multiple days without even talking. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people's nightmares again. Um, a lot of people really couldn't handle that. But that's been an advantage for me with psychedelics and doing psychedelics alone or just being alone in general, where I have this opportunity to actually stop, observe, and kind of follow because like when you're in something, you're like in it, yeah. Yeah, but when you're alone, you get this opportunity to see where your mind goes because your mind goes totally places when you're alone, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

But but you get to observe it a little more because you have no distractions. You get to observe, like, oh, why am I going this direction? Why am I going that direction?

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah, you see the patterning, the programming again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, and you start seeing the program and you start seeing the pattern, and you start being able to be like, okay, one of the things I think you get to do is you kind of get to get to the end of it. I feel like when you have all of these distractions, maybe you never get to get to the end of the thought or the end of the feeling or something like that. Where when you're alone, you get to exhaust that thought, you get to exhaust that feeling to its maximum point, and then you go, Oh, well, that wasn't so bad.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Yeah, totally. You know, yeah. Which I think is when they talk about like the lack of like boredom now. I mean that to some extent that's what you're talking about, right? It's like actually having time where it's you're not constantly distracting yourself. Because I think the other thing too is a lot of people might listen and say, Oh, I could be alone by myself. And okay, but what about without your phone? And without the TV, you know, like doing a meditation retreat where there's no phone, there's no books, there's no TV. And it's really, yeah, seeing that patterning when you're you're bored. And one of the things that I loved, and I don't want to necessarily say that I was bored, but one of the things that my instructor said during that retreat, the last one that I did, she said, pay attention to like boredom, because boredom and peace are really close. And I was like, Oh, that's that's interesting. And so, yeah, you you get to run down that path when yeah, when you are isolated and you're kind of thinking on your own. Yeah, I feel like yeah, that makes so much sense, at least to me.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I mean, even last year when I was working on wildfires, I decided because I'm alone the whole time. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have like three days where I put down my phone, I'm just gonna raw dog like life in 15 hours. I'm just gonna raw dog it. I have nothing to do, yeah, nowhere to go. I'm gonna raw dog 15 hours a day of nothing. You know, uh that's a different experience.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Um, and it's it's crazy how addicted we've become in such a short time.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

And I don't monitor myself, but back to like the thing with psychedelics is like one of the things with with psychedelics is it's very similar to me to another practice that I used to do all the time, which is here in Tucson, we have a mountain, and I would go up to the mountain, and we have like a big overlook where you can see the entire city, and it's like this very introspective place to be because you go up on this mountain and you see all of the tiny little lights and the tiny little cars, and you go, Oh wow, man, there's nothing really there. It's this is all just a tiny little ant hill that I'm worried about, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And I think psychedelics are are a good way. It's kind of like the same concept of like you get up there and you go, Oh man, everything is fine. Yeah, you know, everything is totally cool, you know. I yeah, I always tell people, I'm like, man, on psychedelics or on mushrooms, you know, like I'm more ready to die than ever on psychedelics.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, interesting. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Like if you were like, hey, you have to die right now, I would be like, Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

All right, okay, doing the thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

It's funny because that that was actually it's not even something that I just say, but it's something that's actually kind of happened when I was younger, much younger.

A Mescaline Robbery And Ego Death

SPEAKER_03 34:55

This is quite the setup.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

I love this. Yeah, no, I was much younger. Uh I was actually doing mescaline, which is kind of similar to peyote, but made from different cactus.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

We would drive around and we would pack down cactuses in people's yards, and I had some friends that would dry it out and we would make it, and you have to drink it in like this big jar of it, you know. So we were we were doing this, and we were like at somebody's house, and I was at a stranger's house with a bunch of people I didn't know. I'm sitting on the couch, and people knock in the door with masks on with their guns out. Oh god, you know, like and they do this sort of like mock robbery. Oh god. And I'm like, and I'm just kind of sitting there and I'm like on this psychedelic, and I'm just like, okay, all right, all right, whatever you say, you know. I my heart rate didn't even go up a pinch, you know what I mean? I was like, all right, all right, this works, yeah, you know, you know, and and at the end it turned out to be a joke, but at the time, like I thought it was real, and I was just like, well, everybody else is freaking out, and you're just sitting there like, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

All right.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, I'm like, yeah, whatever. And I think that's what's after you do that for so long, I think that's one of the things that has really brought me sort of this like peace with death is like realizing it's one of those things that's you know, I don't know if you've ever done psychedelics or something, but you have this thing where it's like this ego death, right? And when your ego dies, you realize that everything is everything and you're not separate from anything. That makes that sort of idea of dying is like, oh well, that's what happens, you know. Yeah, there is no, you know. Yeah. So I like to remind myself and I like to kind of do it every once in a while now, even though it's been a while for me, is like I'll go, oh, okay, okay. Yeah, I remember now.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Yeah, the reminder, totally.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

I've been getting a little distracted, but I I remember now, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah, yeah, biggie. I think that's one of the things that I've kind of come to terms with is this realization that I don't think I'm gonna find a story that someone tells me, and I'm like, holy shit, that is amazing. That's what it is, or at least, or that's what I hope it is, and that's gonna give me enough faith to not be afraid of it. I think what I've finally come to terms with is it's gonna be this acceptance around this is what I believe happens, and that's okay. And it sounds like that's essentially what you found through this exploration, through psychedelics, and just come to a place of, yep, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

That's kind of the thing is like becoming comfortable in the uncomfortable because I realizing that some answers aren't going to have fluffy, frilly, sort of like feel-good answers, you know.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Yeah.

Why Mortality Gives Life Meaning

SPEAKER_00 37:45

And once the acceptance happens, you know, it's like in some way, and I think we kind of touched on this earlier, but in some way, I believe that death is necessary. Death is the only thing that gives life meaning.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Without death, life means nothing.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

I had this conversation with a with a religious person, with a I think they were Mormon or something. They were talking about being in heaven and like, oh, I'm gonna get to do this and get to do this in heaven. And he was kind of a like an intellectual guy, and he was like kind of trying to come at it at like sort of like an intellectual standpoint.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

And and I and I was just like, at what point does all of that become meaningless? If I had infinite time, what happens after a billion years and I learn everything and I've seen everything? What happens after two billion years and I've know every song that's ever existed, and every chord, and every sound, and every color.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

The other thing about that is what and there's nothing new anymore. What's the motivation to do that? Because on the front of motivation, on the front end, you could say, Well, I'll learn that later, because I can. I'll go listen to that because I can't get two trillion years. Yeah, because I got I got I got infinite time. And so I I think that's the interesting thing is when I think about that thought experiment, it's probably really, really exciting right out of the gate. And it's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna learn this and I'm gonna talk to this person and this and this. And then and maybe it's because I'm a hermit, but at what point does my energy level say, Yeah, you know what? That was a lot, and I'm just gonna go kind of sit and just relax. And like, yeah, at some point it gets boring, and you know, yeah, I think about that a lot too of infinity is a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Infinity is too long, it makes everything meaningless. So I heard a quote, and again, I don't know where it was from, but it was something like, While people are trying to figure out how to live forever, God's trying to learn how to die. Yeah, it's like this idea that eternity is actually some sort of hell, like this is a hellscape. And that's like the idea of like eternity is like people, everybody wants to live forever, but it's like, do you really?

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Yeah, yeah. Have you really thought about it?

SPEAKER_00 39:58

You never want to be able to turn off ever?

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Yeah, totally. I love thought experiments like that. I do have one last question for you.

What Still Feels Worth Doing

SPEAKER_03 40:05

What's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_00 40:08

That's a great question. It's weird because I I had this conversation not that long ago with someone who's like a little bit younger than me. They're like, Man, I I just want to experience everything. Like, I want to go to every country and I want to do everything, and I want to sleep with every woman and have all the money and all of this stuff. Sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of work, doesn't it? Yeah, like in some way, I would say that I'm open to everything, and I've also seen enough. I'm right there in the middle. Like, I I've seen enough to know what the pattern of life looks like.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Sometimes it feels like I've lived like multiple lifetimes in my life, you know. Oh, totally. Just in this one, you know. Oh, absolutely. I've been so many places and seen so many people, and like I kind of get what the pattern is. Like everything sort of has like this pattern. I'm like, okay, I kind of know what to expect anywhere and everywhere I go. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

So I I would say I I'm not really yearning for any particular experience. I would say I'm I'm pretty fulfilled, yeah, but I'm also motivated to do more and see more, and and whatever it is, I would say I just I love life, it's the best thing ever.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Yeah. So maybe the answer to that question is I'm not exactly sure, but I'll know it when I see it.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah. You'll know it when you see it. You'll go, whoa.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Yeah, well, okay, now I can die. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah, now I can die. Didn't get better than this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Exactly. I just want to thank you for being willing to do this. I absolutely love talking to you. Again, I feel like we have a lot of similar thought processes. I feel like we would be like, if I lived in Arizona, we'd be good friends and be able to chat. So we'll have to, I don't know, share some books with each other and and and stay in touch because yeah, I feel like we've been on similar paths and learning similar things. And so yeah, I just very, very grateful that you're willing to do this.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Oh, yeah, no problem. Uh let's do it again or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

I uh that's sometimes it comes up.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Maybe we can start a podcast called uh when uh what happens when we live.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Spin-off. Perfect. I love a spin-off uh podcast.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Yeah, yeah, I like it. I like it. We'll figure that out. But yeah, thank you so much. And uh I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Awesome, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

All right, take care.

Final Reflection And How To Call

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Something the caller said early in that conversation has been rattling around in my head ever since. The word personality comes from persona, and persona comes from the word mask. So when we say someone has an authentic personality, what we're really saying is that they're really good at their mask. They've committed to it. It's a convincing mask. And I haven't been able to hear the word authentic the same way since. And this is something in general that I've been thinking a lot about. If the personality is a mask and the ego is a construct, and the you that exists is really just accumulated programming, then what exactly is afraid of dying? Because that's the thing, right? We assume we're afraid of death, but maybe what's actually afraid is just part of us that believes it's separate from everything else. And that part, according to this caller, and honestly, according to a lot of what I've been reading lately, might not be as real as it feels. I don't have a clean answer, but I found it very powerful to sit with that question. On my end, this week feels like I'm back on solid ground. I said most of what I needed to say about March last week. This week I just got back to work and remembered why I love doing this. I'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWedietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.