Anonymous #33 — Why Does Some Grief Get to Be Spoken Out Loud and Some Doesn't?

This week's caller has been living with grief long enough to become a student of it. They lost their mom at twenty-two. Then their cat. Then their soul dog thirteen months ago. 

This is a conversation about grief that doesn't rank itself, animals as family, and what it means to believe your soul chose this life even when this life has been really hard.

We talk about losing a parent young and what it does when no one ever talked about death before it happened. We get into ecological grief, the mourning of a world as it used to be, and how a hottest summer on record in Greece sent this caller on a path toward becoming a grief recovery specialist. We talk about souls, reincarnation, the possibility that time doesn't exist where our animals go, and the very real question of whether you'll get to meet your dog again.

And somewhere in the middle of all of it, we end up laughing about whether the old souls are just patiently waiting while the young souls keep coming back around to figure it out.

In this conversation:

• Ecological grief and why grieving a changing world is not a disorder, it's a response
• Anticipatory grief — the kind that starts before you've lost anyone
• Why they found it harder to lose their cat than their mother, and why that makes complete sense
• The case for anti-speciesism in grief work — why every animal deserves to be mourned without shame

A few lines from the call:

• "Death is the only thing that is sure that's gonna happen to our body after we're born, and yet no one speaks about it."
• "I didn't even want to live anymore." What losing their soul dog did, said plainly.
• "We don't overcome grief. We learn how to live with grief."

Book recommendation: The Wild Edge of Sorrow by Francis Weller

More book recommendations from past episodes: View the full list

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube

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A guided audio interview to capture your story in your own words for the people you love.

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Transcript

Losing A Mother Too Soon

SPEAKER_04 0:00

My connection with death started when I was like twenty two years old because I I lost my mom and it was like too early for losing my mom at this age. And although she was sick throughout my upbringing because she had cancer, I never thought that she would die because we never had this conversation. I wish we had this conversation to be honest. I I don't know if there is any culture where they like in the West side they really talk about death. And I think that it's very important that we have to start speaking about it because death is the only thing that it's sure that's gonna happen to our body after we're born, and yet no one speaks about it.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here.

A Project For Recording Your Story

SPEAKER_02 1:09

This episode is supported by Nemostheny, a project I've been building alongside this podcast. Nemostheny is a simple way to tell your story in your own voice. It's a guided, audio-first conversation with me where we capture the parts of your life that matter to you. Where you came from, the people who shaped you, the seasons that changed you, and the moments you don't want to lose. It's not therapy and it's not a performance. It's just a real conversation that becomes a private audio keepsake you can share with the people you love or keep for yourself. If you want to learn more, you can find it at Nimostheny.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com.

Grief That Does Not Get Named

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. There's a version of grief that doesn't make the obituary section. The kind that comes from losing a pet or watching the world you grow up and slowly change into something unrecognizable. Most of us have felt that kind of loss, but very few of us have a name for it. This week's caller is joining us from Sweden, originally from Greece, and they have lived a lot of life. They lost their mom at twenty-two, and without conversations they wish they'd had. Then a cat who got them through many years of hard times. Then a dog who was, by their own description, an extension of themselves. And somewhere inside of all that loss, they became someone who helps other people grieve. Not just for the deaths they got funerals, but for the ones that didn't. The ones people feel embarrassed to name out loud because they're not sure the loss is big enough to count. And I'll be honest with you, I know that feeling personally. One of the biggest reasons I started this project was my fear around losing my dog Jackson. And for a long time I couldn't bring myself to say that out loud because he's a dog. I was convinced you'd think less of me for it. That it didn't count in some way. This conversation helped me understand why that embarrassment exists and why it shouldn't. This one is warm and wide-ranging and genuinely funny in pieces. It gets into ecological grief, anticipatory grief, about what animals can teach us about love and why so many of us are walking around carrying losses we've never given ourselves permission to feel. There's also a really powerful moment in here that I've heard from a couple people about how losing a pet can hit harder sometimes than losing a person and why that might not be as strange as it sounds. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy.

Meet The Caller From Sweden

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Hello. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_04 3:30

It's going well. How's it going at the end?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

I'm good. It's always interesting doing these international calls where you're at the end of your day and I'm at the beginning of my day. But yeah, things are going well here so far.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Nice. Yes, it's like always the end of milk here.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

A little bit different. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. It's always very nice to and and maybe not maybe nice isn't even the right word, but it's just always interesting and fun to get someone who is not in the United States to talk about this topic. I mean, it's fun to get anybody to talk about this topic, but getting a different perspective from a different place, I think, is super important. And so I'm glad that you're lending your voice to the project. Well, maybe just kind of briefly, because obviously this could send us off into a much longer conversation. Maybe you could just briefly let me know why you even wanted to do this conversation. It's a topic that a lot of people don't want to talk about. You know, people don't like talking about death. Or I guess I should maybe preface that with that's how it is here. Maybe it's different there. But maybe you can just give me like a little brief kind of idea of why you wanted to talk about death and have this conversation with me.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Mm-hmm. Of course. Uh that's a great question, in fact, because uh it's exactly the reason I want to do this conversation, because most people don't want to talk about death. Yeah. And I I'm always considered as a radical person. Nice. So I like to do radical conversations.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

And um my connection with death started when I was like 22 years old because I I lost my mom.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

And it was like too early too early for losing your mom at this age.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

And although she was sick uh throughout my upbringing because she had cancer, I never thought that she would die because we never had this conversation. I wish we had this conversation to be honest. And uh I would have appreciated a lot. So I think I I don't know if there is any culture where they like in the West society, that they really talk about death. And I think that it's very important that we have to start speaking about it because death is the only thing that it's sure that's gonna happen to our body after we're born.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

And yes, no one speaks about it. Yeah, we cover we put it under the carpet all the time.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yes, absolutely. Well, yeah, I was almost normalizing. Absolutely. I was kind of slightly hoping that it'd be like, no, everybody talks about death here all the time. Um, but yeah, like kind of like you said, it's just at least in Western culture, it feels very swept under the rug, like put aside, let's not talk about it. I don't want to think about it. I'm excited to talk with you. I have I know a little bit about you from your application and everything. But before we kind of dive into the full conversation, I've kind of alluded to it a couple times. But just to kind of get to know you and obviously keeping the anonymity thing, maybe you could let people know where you're calling from. Normally I say city-state, but you know, maybe country, city, whatever you want to do there, and then your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Well, I am calling from Sweden, but I am originally from Greece.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

However, I consider myself a citizen of the world because I've lived in many different countries.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

It just happened that I was in Greece, and it just happened that now I'm in Sweden.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

And who knows in that you know, in a year from now.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

Exactly. Yeah, there is so much uncertainty now. My favorite book, wow, I think the book I lately speak about is very close to the theme of our conversation. So it's The Wild Edge of Toro by Francis Weller.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 7:05

I don't know if you're you're aware, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

I know of the book. I have not read it. Um, but I say this.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

I strongly recommend it.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

I was gonna say, I feel like people are probably getting tired of me saying this, but it's on my list. Every time someone recommends a book, I'm like, oh yeah, I I my book list is way too long. But that is that's one that I've had, you know, pretty high up, and and I say this too a lot. Maybe this will push me to uh to put it the next couple books that I read.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

It's very nourishing, uh, especially if you have lost someone uh the time that you're grieving. It's really helpful to read this book. It's like really very, very nourishing.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

And is that why you would say it's kind of like your favorite? Is it just kind of this great encapsulation of that process, I guess?

SPEAKER_04 7:49

It's very, it's very deep, it's very spiritual, it's very like authentic, and yeah, I mean it's I wish I could uh sometime maybe uh translate it to my mother tongue.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Is your and this is completely off the topic, um, but is your mother tongue Greek?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Okay, cool. Just curious. Since you, you know, you said you're person of the world and all this stuff. Like I was just curious, but we've gotten to know you a little bit, and now I think we can just dive into the heart of the conversation and

Soul Beliefs And Life Lessons

SPEAKER_02 8:24

start with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_04 8:27

So I believe that I am a soul having a human experience. Okay. So I believe that we are just souls in a body for some time, and then we just leave the body and we continue our life, our soul.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

And what does that look like to you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

So I believe that it must be really hard the moment we have to leave back the body, uh, the soul must be a little confused, like, okay, now what?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

I recently participated in a workshop for intuitive animal communication. So we talk a lot about non-human animals and how we have to help them spiritually to do the you know, to transform, yeah, to do the to take a path, yeah, uh, to live back the body. And for example, in that workshop we talked a lot about trying to communicate with the spirit of the animal before they die and ask them what they want us to do with the body. Some dogs they want to be buried, other dogs they want to be cremated. Not all the dogs want the same. Some of the ones that want to be cremated, for example, or they don't want, they said, at least please let my person be the last one who will touch my body, not uh, you know, an unknown person.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

So this is gonna make me cry. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Love dogs. I mean, cry crying is is really part of life as well. We should be able to cry, so don't apologize. Yeah, and also I love dogs, and last year I lost 13 months ago, I lost my soul dog, so I'm speaking about having another dog who is eventually gonna die as well. So there is a lot of anticipatory grief here. So the thing is, what I haven't really understood, uh, because I have read a lot, I have studied a lot about near-death experiences and spiritual books about dying and death. What I haven't really understood is because I believe that our soul eventually will inhabit another body at some point. What I don't know is after how long.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

And for example, the the thought that is troubling me is that okay, when I'm gonna die, can I meet my soul dog? Or he's gonna be in the body of another animal, and then I will have to wait for him to die. But then again, I think that the concept of time doesn't exist in that dimension.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Oh, this is fascinating. I love I love conversations like this where it intermingles death and time. And I guess I'm gonna steal something from an earlier caller, but like a consciousness soup or like a soul soup kind of thing where you know we all meet somewhere and and hopefully we get to yeah, meet our loved ones and our our animals again. And so at least when I've kind of read up on kind of this type of idea or theory, I guess the question that I have is then what what are we doing here now? I know from some religions and some ideologies that this is, you know, I chose this life to learn a specific lesson. And so I'm here to learn this lesson, and then I go back to quote unquote the soul realm, and then I pick another lesson. You know, is it something like that? Or is this just like we're just doing this thing and there's not necessarily any rhyme or reason to it? Like, do you have any inclinations around that?

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yeah, so I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. Yeah, and I believe exactly what you said. I believe that we are coming into a body in order to have a specific experience, in order to learn a lesson. And I I I even know which is my lesson for this body for this time of my life. Yeah. And it's it's hard. And yes, although it's really hard for said that we have chosen to be in that body, because especially if you have grown up with abusive environments, non-healthy environments, you're like often saying, you know, I I never asked to be born, I never asked to be brought in this world. Also, I'm an anti-natalist, so I'm against procreation. Uh, because I believe that you know, we bring uh people into uh existence without their will. But this contradicts my idea of you know, spiritually we want to come in this specific body.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

So I think that there is a reason for us to to exist in a specific time and specific place, and uh without a mission, and um it doesn't have to do anything with religion.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Uh the way I and then it's maybe also religious thing this, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah. Is there is there an end? Is there a point where you acquire all the knowledge, you know, after whether it's tens, hundreds, thousands of lifetimes? Is there something that you see as, hey, you know, like, and is that enlightenment, you know, as you know, oh, I'm an enlightened being now and I've learned all my lessons. Do you feel like there's an ending to the to the process, to the learning?

SPEAKER_04 13:27

Yeah, I hear you, and it's a very interesting question. I've never really thought about it, but uh, I would say that I feel that I am a very old soul, so I wish I'm not gonna inhabit another body in the future. So I think that maybe the end would be like, okay, we have we have inhabited a lot of bodies, so from now on we can just exist in the soul space. So we don't have to go in in another body anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

And then I know you said, and this is a a slight joke, um, I know you said that, you know, maybe in the soul realm time doesn't matter, but then you can just once you're there, once you've, you know, and attained all the knowledge that you need, then you just like wait for your pets to figure it out. And you know, then you know, every time they come around for a cycle, like, come on, Jackson, you didn't figure it out this time. All right, well, I'll be waiting next time you come back around, but then you don't have to like time it up or anything, it'll be great.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Yeah, yeah. That's uh that's a nice way to see it. I like it. Yeah.

Animal Spirits And After-Death Choices

SPEAKER_02 14:31

We'll see if it pans out.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

I totally tend to think that uh my dog who died, he was an old soul. Whereas my dog who's still alive, he's a very new soul. Yeah, so he has to come back again and again. So um thank you for giving me this idea. Yeah, I can see myself out there with my dog with the old soul, waiting for this dog to come again and again. Like, did you learn this time?

SPEAKER_02 14:55

It's funny because now that you say it, and partially I'd say my older dog is an old soul. I mean, it's he's old, he's 18. So I'll I'll lose him soon. But I feel like he's always been just like you said, like I've never actually like really put that together, but he always has felt like an old soul, just kind of you know, very relaxed. And you know, he did have his puppy phase or whatever, but it was just very like relaxed, like to nap. And then I have a younger dog, which again, you know, he's younger, so he has energy, but he definitely feels like a younger soul. I feel like you you have perfectly described my two dogs of like they are those ages, old and young, but they are definitely like their souls definitely are very different. So, yeah, I think Daxon will probably be waiting for me to be like, finally, you you learn your lessons, and then Walter will just, you know, he'll be, you know, multiple lifetimes before he figures out all his lessons. But I am super curious from your application, and you talked a little bit about losing your mom. You also talked about losing your dog, but grief is, and that's a this maybe a weird way of phrasing it, but grief is a huge part of your life. It's something that you are are working with now. So I'm curious if maybe you could talk about that a little bit more and what that journey has been like.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Of course, it is, yes. And thank you for asking this because I'm like on a career change. So I have been grieving since yeah, 22 years old. But uh lately the grief has accumulated because I experienced ecological grief. Uh I don't know if you have ever.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I haven't.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

You have so people experience ecological grief lately due to the climate change, which I prefer to call climate collapse. So people people are actively grieving the world as they grieved in the past. And uh, when you have this type of grief, it's perfectly healthy. There is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean that you need something, but you need to be able to share your grief in a safe container with other people. So I joined uh grief circle for ethnological grief after the hottest summer of my life in Greece, and it was a very supportive environment, it was online, so we were people from all over the world experiencing extreme weather events and sharing our echo anxiety because it's related also with the anxiety that we feel due to these events. So I started like studying how we can be resilient when these things are happening, and then I also realized that there is a term for the grief that we feel when we are expecting someone that we love to die, the anticipatory grief. And it was exactly what I was experiencing because I knew that my dogs were growing old, and I was trying, even in the idea that I'm gonna lose them, because they were really like my soul dog, he was like a therapy dog, let's say he was really helping me during all the difficult times of my life. Yeah, and I I couldn't see myself without him because like my extension, because also we were living very isolated. So after he died, I was devastated. It was like yeah, I didn't even want to leave anymore. So I found an online uh seminar, a webinar on grief, four levels, and I started studying this. Like I learned everything about grief, and it really helped me understand my my own feelings because I'm a scientist, so as a scientist and a researcher, I I think that I process things better when I know exactly what what they are, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

I I think I'm very similar to you in that way, but I also think that's probably true for a lot of people, right? Even if you're not a scientist, it's like if you understand what's going on inside your body, it definitely helps comprehend, you know, like if you can put a name to it, I think that helps, or like, oh yeah, this is this thing that I'm feeling is grief. Whether, you know, instead of, oh, I thought this was unrelated or whatever. Like, I think when people can put a name to something, that really helps. Or it can help. I think it can also cause other issues, probably. But sorry, continue.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Some people, yes. Uh, but um many people they don't really care or they don't really know. Maybe it's also culture related. Maybe in the states people want more to give some a name for what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

I don't know about that. I don't want to give the states too much credit because I don't know if we're doing much right over here.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

So yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Um anyway, so yeah, from you know, I I took the seminar and many things made sense at last. And um there was a type uh a moment in the seminar that they are explaining what is disenfranchised grief. So this is a type of grief that we are not acknowledging in the society, but the whole seminar was very human-centered. And I'm an activist for animal rights, I advocate for animal liberation. I was like, Where are the animals? Like,

Ecological Grief And Climate Anxiety

SPEAKER_04 19:55

why no one speaks about them? You know, they were not even speaking. I mean, maybe they barely mentioned one or twice, you know, losing a dog, but that was it. Yeah, and I am a person who have rescued all types of animals, like uh monkeys and cats and dogs and uh birds, and so I love all the animals equally. I'm an anti-species, so I love that.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

I love that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

Because as an animal I'm advocating for animals, liberation, I fight species, which for me is the highest form of discrimination. So under species, we have racism and all the other types. So when we say that it's okay to have a dog and a cat in our lab, but then we can go and eat uh cow or a pig, this is specicism. So it it comes like from the from the like racism, you know, species. I'm very like interested, and I would like uh because I have volunteered in many animal sanctuaries, like wild animals in the beginning, and then in farm sanctuaries.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

So I have seen a lot of sorrow when people who rescue these type of animals, they lose them and they grieve, but you know, they have nowhere to speak about. Yeah, you can speak about grieving a pig or a cow or a chicken or a duck, you know. And uh so eventually I I studied uh even more grief. So I became a grief recovery specialist and I have just started my practice. So I help people by educating them, by giving them the tools that can help someone overcome grief. But I didn't say this correctly because we don't overcome grief, we learn how to live with grief, but it's like uh may maybe the best is to say how to overcome accumulated unresolved grief.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

That's the the best way to say language does get tricky around this topic, right? Because it is uh it's very important.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

It's very important.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Like subtle phrasing changes things so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

I I want to help people, like, you know, because many people several people call me, like, Oh, I lost my mother. How did you manage losing your mother so young? Or I lost my dog, I lost my cat, and because it's really, really hard to lose someone, and it's I think it's it's that hard because we don't speak about death and we don't speak about grief. Yeah, these things are not they are not hot, they are not sexy, no one wants to speak about them, they are not positive. We have this toxic positivity, speaking only about positive things out there.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

So I think that yeah, I I would like to like make a living as a grief recovery specialist, but I want to also start a non-profit and I want to create to develop uh grief education courses, online courses, but they are going to be under species, they are going to speak about grief related to all animals because all people should have the ability to be able to speak about the grief, no matter who are they grieving.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

No matter how small or big the animal has been, no matter how many years or months or days this animal has been has been in the life.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah, I think at least I don't know, this project for me is, you know, relatively new. I mean, I've been doing it for about three years. The the podcast is more recent than that. But one of the huge reasons that I started it was because of Jackson. He was 15 at the time, and I was like, hey, you know, he's getting older, he's gonna die soon. And I have these unresolved, and I don't know if I'll ever really resolve my feelings and fears and anxieties around death, but I have these feelings and emotions that I'm not dealing with, and I need to talk about it. I need to figure out a way to work through this. But there is such a long time of the process. I would say it's only been within the last couple of months where, you know, I've started seeing stuff pop up that's probably the algorithm or me being connected to a lot of death-related stuff. But I've been seeing more things about animal loss. And I would say mostly, you know, dog lost is what I would say has been popping up for me, which the algorithm is working in that way. But I would say for so long I felt embarrassed to mention it on here or any in any relation to the project, because it's like I'm talking to people who have lost their, like you lost your mother, and I've talked to people who have lost siblings and just all these big losses. And I'm like, I don't want to mention Jackson. That seems selfish and unfair. And it's yeah, very recently where I'm like, hey, you know what? It's okay to like we don't need to compare grief. We don't need to compare lot, like that is not that is not helpful in any, in any sense. And I know to some extent, like you said, I've had Jackson for 18 years. He's been with me through some of the no, he's been with me through all of the hardest times in my life. And so that will be a huge, devastating loss for me. I love hearing you talk about animals and that being part of this process and you bringing that into your practice and what you're doing because it is important. That was my long ramble.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

Is that we should never compare grief. I mean, I lost my mom, but I have to admit it was harder to lose my first cat. I know that people are maybe shocked when they're gonna listen to this, but you're not the first person that I've heard say something like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

I've had multiple people say similar things like this. Yeah, sorry, I mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Like I loved my mother, and uh she was my best friend, and we had an amazing relationship. But my cat was the extension of myself for 12 years. She was there when I was studying, when I was taking all my degrees, and she was really like uh she helped me stop having sleeping issues. And again, when I lost my dog, I was like, how did I manage like them losing, you know, my mom and my cousin? Now losing him is like but of course, each time we lose someone, even if it's a human or a non-human animal, we uh the the grief brings also we have other things that are emerging. So each loss brings other losses from before that they are unusual, yeah, accumulative feelings. So exactly, yeah. And uh the grief recovery method has a specific different program for pet loss, and it has a specific book, and that's why I love it, because at least for dogs that horses, bannies, like specific animals to have a specific book about how to, you know, manage how to deal with this kind of loss, it's very important. Yeah, but I want to take it further than these animals. I don't want to

Disenfranchised Grief And Speciesism

SPEAKER_04 26:30

have specific animals in a book, like okay, it's okay for them. But what about the others? Because really, when people are rescuing animals the one after the other, and like I mean I mean about going in a slaughterhouse and rescuing very big large animals and having put so much energy then to to take care of them because we didn't really know how to take care of these animals in the past. We are just now learning more and more vegan people go out and rescue these kind of animals, and then we don't have MRI for pigs, for example. Just in in Canada some years ago, there was the first one for the first rescue big pig. So, you know, when you put so much love and so much energy in saving uh an individual and then taking care of them, and then you suddenly lose them. Yeah, I mean it's it's a huge loss. And people need to be able to speak about these losses and not feeling ashamed, and you should never feel ashamed.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Because it's love, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Yes, of course. It's cure is it's a purest love. Yeah. I mean, I think that recently scientists have said that losing your dog is even equal to losing your kid. It's a psychiatrist who told me that. And I'm also uh, you know, I I'm advocating for uh child-free life. So as you said, it's true, it's not only in the States. More and more people decide not to have kids. Instead, they rescue their adopt animals, and these are the kids. I mean, we can have non-human kids. So you give all your love, all your energy to them, and when they lose, they leave there is a huge loss, a huge gap, a huge absence that we have to deal with. So, of course, everyone should have the right to speak about this loss equally.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah, again, I'm I'm I I love that you're incorporating that. Because I was gonna even ask, like, if you were specializing more in animal, but it it it seems and it makes so much sense when you talk about it to some extent, is it but we're also animals, humans are animals. We we like to think that we're not. And so you are focusing on animals, but that includes us. And I think that is another thing that we've done is just separate ourselves from the world, the natural world, so much that we are different than we're not animals, we're we're humans, we're special. But I love that you're incorporating that and and bringing that all together because like I said, I've definitely felt some embarrassment of just like I am really anxious and and worried about losing Jackson. And so, yeah, I haven't I haven't talked about it very much.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

But you are you are experiencing anticipatory grief as well, and it's a very humane thing experience, and yes, it's a hard time, it's hard because it's not really possible to prepare ourselves because I'm also having the same feelings for my dog Caramelo, yeah. And um it's also something that you should be able to share. Like there are some people who are specializing on pet loss and they speak a lot about anticipatory grief. And to answer your question, yes, I have decided to prioritize uh supporting people who are related to a lot of the non-human animals. And yes, I tend to say human and non-human animals because we are animals as well. And as you said, this is a very big issue. We have forgotten that we are just one more animal. Yeah, homosapi and stuff, and this human supremacy is uh the top of the pyramid of what we have created to to the to the world, you know, all this pain and all this damage comes from that point of view, like we are something higher, something bigger, and we are not.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah, absolutely. Before I I I do want to change directions in a second, but I think before I do that, I am just curious about a huge part of this project for me is my anxieties and my fears. And so do you have fears around death? And what has the journey around learning more about grief done to your thoughts around death, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_04 30:26

I think that from the moment I lost my mother and I read so many new death experience cases, I stopped feeling afraid. However, I have a fear because I have been struggling with depression for many years in my life in the past, and during these times I become suicidal. So I really don't want to ever do this because I have a fear, and from what I have read, like in spiritual books, if people die by suicide, something really not nice is happening now. So it's like never never really being able to go where you should go because you have done it before it should have happened. So maybe my only fear is that I don't want to ever be depressed again because I don't want to ever go close to that again.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah, that's that's that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

And uh you said you said one more, one more could you please repeat the next you said something.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

I think just how has how has this journey of learning about grief impacted your kind of like outlook on on death? And I think we've touched on this already, probably a decent amount, but I'm just curious if you have anything else to add there.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Of I I think maybe it has helped me being able to speak about it, like want to decide and say to my partner like practically what we are gonna do with my body when I'm not gonna be there anymore.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

Uh I want to have this conversation early now because I don't want to be buried and I don't want to be sent to Greece. I don't want anything religious to happen. I want the most environmentally friendly way of just you know letting my body rot and become compost on the soil. So I think, yeah, this whole uh Greece education has helped me doing these conversations around there. You know, when you start saying these things, people say, Oh, don't, you know, stop, you're so young, you should not. No, I should. I hear that.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Hear that a lot. Hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Yeah, yeah. Statistically, very likely that we'll live to 70s, 80s statistically. But there are a ton of outliers of those statistics, and there is no guarantee that you're not one of those outliers. We walk around like we are guaranteed a full quote unquote whatever full lifetime is. You know, like there's no guarantees that this is gonna continue, that I'm gonna be around. And so might as well try to to do the things that I want to do around this and and build the things versus, I don't know, staying stagnant or whatever. But that was a long, long rant rant again. Yes, you go. It's way more interesting when you talk than when I talk.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

It's your podcast, so you should talk as well. Don't apologize. I was just about to say something that maybe is gonna create some eco-anxiety

When Pet Loss Hits Harder

SPEAKER_04 33:20

to some people, but I don't want to do this. I'm just I I really want to say this because when you said about like, you know, it's very possible that someone will die from a car accident. Nowadays, it's even possible that we may die from a flood, like a woman in Athens died in a flood the other day. So there are so many people who will start dying from a heat wave, and there are all these extreme weather events. Some people here in Sweden died from a snowstorm. So, like these things in the past were not happening as were not happening as often as they do now.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Yeah, what do you call it? Climate collapse? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Yeah, I call it climate collapse, yes. And it's uh I'm I'm thinking about being present in an extreme weather event without being informed about it beforehand. So you may die suddenly and you would not expect it.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah, absolutely. I live in Portland, Oregon, and we have a pretty temperate climate, I would say, but it was, I don't know, three or four years ago now. Actually, I always do this after the pandemic, I always add two years. So it was probably it was probably about five years ago. We had this heat wave where for like three or four days in a row, and we we barely get uh, and sorry, I'm gonna do Fahrenheit because we're dumb Americans. Um, I don't know the Celsius conversion, but it's okay. We I would say we get a couple days of a year that are over 100 degrees. And we had this like three or four or five day stretch where three of the days were 113, 114, and 117. And I think in Seattle, which is the city three hours north, and Portland are two of the lowest cities in the United States with air conditioning. And so during these heat waves, there were a bunch of people that didn't have air conditioning, were in really, really hot houses, and there were a lot of deaths that that came from that. So I that's really I don't want to say good to point out. I mean, it's it's a shitty fact that you have to point out, but it's an important fact to point out that what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

What we could use is insightful, maybe it's it's an insightful observation. And to be honest, when I hear you, I think of a person that I met in that Greece circle from Echo Greece who moved from Oregon to Canada exactly because of the heat waves. And it's exactly what I also did. I moved from Greece to Sweden because I couldn't bear any more of the heat waves.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

So we are climate migrants, and in the future we're gonna have climate uh refugees.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, absolutely. I do want to touch on this for a second because I think an interesting, I mean, it's you bring a different perspective, especially living in multiple places around the world. But so I we don't have to dive in this for super long, but I am curious. We've talked about this a little bit, but what does the climate, and I mean that as in like, you know, the people around you, what does death awareness, death talk, grief look like? I mean, it's we've we've touched on it a little bit that it sounds, you know, Western and similar to the states in ways, but I always think it's interesting when I get someone on here who's not from the states to kind of hear perspectives about how people talk about death, how people talk about grief. And I know this could be like a super, super big

Fear, Depression, And Suicide Beliefs

SPEAKER_02 36:40

question. And you know, we've been talking for 45 minutes, so I don't wanna I don't wanna talk your ear off or anything, but I think it's interesting to touch on at least for a minute because you bring a different perspective there.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Yeah, well, uh, thank you for this question. First of all, I have to say that I'm very new in Sweden, so it's been just six months I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

My friends are also people from other countries who have to live here. I have like only a couple of Swedish. We have not really talked about that yet. I also wonder how they manage to to go like better uh in terms of economy and maybe we would say sustainability, although I just experienced the destruction of the forest. It's maybe a myth, I could say, that these countries are very eco-friendly. But in Greece, for example, I have lived in Greece, in Spain, in France, the Netherlands. I don't think that so far I have found a place that it's easier to talk about death or that people like to be in the funeral, for example, in Greece is really uncomfortable. There is a lot of crying, there is a lot of uh I think the problem with uh death nowadays is that people don't apply the rituals that they were applying in the past.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

So You've gotten pushed so far away from it.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Yeah, we are not used to see, for example, we're not used to seeing dead bodies. Yeah. So for example, I remember when my grandfather died and I had to go to the funeral, I was so shocked seeing him, you know, serious in his dead body, and I was like, This is not my grandpa, you know. Yeah, and I was very shocked by this image. And I I have read when I was uh obviously studying that Ireland is a country, maybe this is where you should find something to speak from, because they are speaking about death from young age. I don't know if it's a specific uh like community or place in Ireland, but they are more like open in speaking about death.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

And uh I I didn't know anything about that. I heard it in a TED talk like a couple of years ago. But I can share with you that in Mexico, because my partner is a week in Mexico, and when he noticed that he had to go and he experienced there at the funeral, people there are wearing white clothes, they are not wearing black. And then people there are celebrating the life of the person who has died. Yeah they are not crying because that person died, so they are not focusing on the death, they are focusing on the life of the person. And for me, this is so so much better. Yeah, because if we focus on the what's happening now and we don't cherish like what has happened until that day, it's it's very sad because the soul is somewhere there, seeing all these people just crying over a dead body. And it must be very frustrating for the soul,

Green Death Planning And Body Wishes

SPEAKER_04 39:30

you know, to see all the beloved people being in such uh tremendous suffering while they are just still somewhere around, just not in that body anymore. So I think that if I would like to ever be in a funeral again, because I I after my mother died, I really don't like I avoid them very much.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 39:48

I would like to be in a funeral in Mexico if life would ever bring me there. Because I would like to see it in a very different in another perspective, in a in a positive perspective. Because, yeah, death is just like I want to share with you my favorite quote from uh one of my very favorite songs from Anathema.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:07

So it goes like life is not the opposite of death, birth is the opposite of life is eternal. So this is it. Life is eternal.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

I like that.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

That's the pasta.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Uh one of these days I really want to make make my way down to Mexico for Day of the Dead. Just kind of see that that kind of celebration. I mean, like you said, I think that's exactly what you're saying. Is it doesn't feel like this morbid and depressing thing. It feels like a celebration of life. And I and I I haven't lost very many people in my life, but the memories that I have of losing it's kind of strange. I lost both of my grandpa's within a month. And I was very close with my mom's dad, and we were kind of all around his bedside as he passed, and we were drinking whiskey because he loved whiskey. He wasn't drinking whiskey, but the family was. And we were telling all these like stories about him. And I think we were all, especially like the younger generation, we were hearing some stories about him that we had we had never heard. And then my dad's dad, it was a little bit different. Um, but his mom, my great-grandma, who I knew, I think she died when I was 18. Um, so I knew her for a decent amount of time, but she was like the matriarch of the family. She was a badass, she was awesome. And when my dad's dad died, maybe this is bad, but we ended up talking about my grandma a lot and just like the memory of her and and these stories. And it's those things that I remember. And I think, yeah, when it becomes this somber affair, and I don't know. I mean, I know maybe a little bit from talking to a lot of people about death, but you know, you being in the grief world and and knowing that, like, it just seems like it's a a much healthier way of grieving and relating to the person who has passed. Um, so I'm I'm I'm with you where I want people, although I don't really like drinking anymore, but I want people to be like doing shots. I want people to have a party when I die. I don't want people to be sad. You know, like I think that that's the last thing that I'd want. And I get that people will be sad. Like I'm not saying, you know, you're not allowed to feel that emotion, but it

Funeral Culture From Greece To Mexico

SPEAKER_02 42:10

should be a celebration of who I was and not, I don't want it to, it sometimes feels like what we create is something that just heightens sadness. And at least for me, like I don't I don't want that. So yeah, I I do hope you make it down to Mexico. Well, I was gonna say I was gonna say I also want to phrase that right because essentially what I was saying is I hope you get to make it to Mexico for a funeral. So I'm I'm kind of hoping that someone dies. So I don't know if that's that's a great way of phrasing it. So yeah, I don't I don't know. I'm gonna I'm gonna step out of the hole that I just I just walked into or whatever. But I do have one I do have one final question for you. And so what's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_04 42:56

I think it would be what I just said to travel with a sailing boat, to travel as much as environmentalists. Yeah, so maybe sailing would be that yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

And if you make your way, although it's a it's a it'd be a long it'd be a long trek from uh Sweden to the Oregon coast, but if you on your journeys make your way to the Oregon coast, let me know and uh I'll come out and we can we can I don't know do something.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

I don't know. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

And if I'm if I make it over there at some point, I will I'll do the same.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

But yeah, I just I just want to say thank you.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

I I really, really appreciate you thank you for having me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

I appreciate your broadband.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Oh, thank you. I'm I'm doing my best to I I guess I don't even know some days what I'm trying to do with this anymore because there's so many facets with it. But I'm grateful that you're willing to to come on and and and have a conversation and and share your knowledge that you have been accumulating through these classes and all that stuff and It's always really wonderful to get international callers. So yeah, thank you so much. And I had a wonderful time chatting with you.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Thank you. Have a good life.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Thank you. Bye. There's something about this conversation that feels incredibly timely for me. Especially the piece about anticipatory grief, the not knowing how to hold something before it's even happened yet. This caller has done a lot of work to understand that feeling. And in a lot of ways, this is a huge reason why this project exists in the first place. This past week has been heavy. A dear friend of the podcast reached out with some difficult news, and honestly, it's been hard to think about much else. This is someone who's been a teacher to me, someone who's challenged me to grow this project, and over the last couple years has become a really good friend. I don't want to get into too much of the detail right now, but I'll likely be sharing more soon. It's also why there was no

One Last Dream And Farewell

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Saturday contemplation this past weekend. I've been preparing for what could be a very special episode connected to this, but it's all still very new, and I want to be careful about getting too ahead of myself. What I will say is that I'm grateful that this project has brought people like this into my life. That is not something I take lightly, and I'm incredibly honored that I get to do it. I'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like,

Host Reflection And Ways To Join

SPEAKER_02 45:53

share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.