Bonus — Don Sires: Exit Interview

This one is different.

When We Die Talks is built around anonymous conversations — people calling in to talk about death, dying, and what they think comes next. No names, no faces, just honest conversation. This episode breaks that format entirely, and I think once you hear it you'll understand why it had to.

Don Sires was one of the very first guests on this podcast. Over a year ago he sat down with me, not anonymously, by his own choice, and talked about living with ALS, his Baha'i faith, and what he believed waited on the other side. That episode, Episode 8, became one of the most listened to conversations this show has ever had. It's still the one I get contacted about the most.

A few weeks ago Don texted me. His nurse had given him four to six weeks to live. And then he asked if I wanted to do a wrap-up interview.

That's very Don.

I went to his home and we sat down one more time. This conversation is quieter than the first one. Slower. The Don you met in Episode 8 is still very much there, the curiosity, the warmth, the willingness to go deep, but you'll notice the difference. He wanted to wrap things up, offer some final thoughts, and leave something behind.

If you haven't heard Episode 8, please start there. Get to know him first. Then come back.

I'm honored that Don trusted me with his story over a year ago. I'm even more honored that he trusted me with this.

Video Episode: If you’d like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube

Transcript

Why This Conversation Is Different

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. I'm gonna start this one a little differently because it's a different kind of episode. It's a break from our normal anonymous format. This is a conversation with someone you know if you've been here for a while. Don Syers was one of the first people I ever interviewed for the podcast. A mutual friend introduced us, and we ended up sitting in a really loud, busy coffee shop talking about death for about two hours. That was the first time we met. I knew pretty quickly that this was someone I wanted to know. When we finally recorded episode eight, I had no idea what I was doing. The microphones were propped up on books, and I had my iPhone set up to record video that I never ended up using. I was working through this very formulaic list of questions, trying to figure out what this project even was. Don was gracious enough to not make me feel like an idiot about any of it. After that, we just kept talking. I'd go visit him every couple months, no agenda, no recordings, just conversations. He pushed me to explore things I wasn't sure I believed, not in a way that felt like he was telling me I was wrong, more like he genuinely wanted to see where my curiosity would take me if I let it. I can honestly say this podcast wouldn't be what it is today without him. About two weeks ago, he texted me. He told me his nurse had given him four to six weeks to live, and then he asked if I wanted to do a wrap-up interview. His words. But it still almost didn't happen. We had to reschedule once, and then the morning of the interview, I was sitting there waiting anxiously. He hadn't been feeling well the night before. And when my phone rang about 15 minutes before I needed to leave, I assumed he was calling to cancel. Instead, he was calling to ask if it would be a problem for the audio because someone was coming to clean the house. And I'll just note here that you might hear some background noise. But I told him it didn't matter. We'd figure it out. I just really wanted to see him one more time. I'll be honest with you, I wanted this interview to happen for some selfish reasons too. I knew it would be something people needed to hear and wanted to hear, especially people who loved episode 8, which is a lot of people. But after we finished recording, Don looked at me and said he'd selfishly wanted to do it too, so he could leave something behind for his kids. And I think that's the thing. We both had our own reasons for making this happen, and that probably pushed us to actually make it happen. But underneath all of that, we're really just two people who like to have meaningful conversations. And even if the selfish part is what got us into the room, the rest of it, that was just us. If you haven't heard episode eight, please go there first. Get to know Don, then come back. Here's Don. One more time. I hope you enjoy.

Reuniting For One More Talk

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Anything else you need on your end? No. This does feel a little bit different than last time where I was uh very panicked about okay, how do I start this? How do I do this? And yeah, I'm glad that we're getting to do this. Let me, I'm gonna just just to be safe. You sound good to me, but I'm just boosting you up just a little bit more. Definitely let me know at any point you need a break or if we need to stop. Okay.

The Text With A Timeline

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I did take down some notes, but I'm gonna keep it very casual. I didn't necessarily plan this, but on the drive here, I was thinking about it, and I thought maybe the best way to start this would be the text message that you sent me um about a week ago. Yeah. And it says, I need to tell you the nurse is giving me four to six weeks to live. I thought maybe we could do a wrap-up interview if you like, might be an interesting conclusion. And that's not a text that you get every day. Um, I don't know if it's just me, but I found the the wrap-up interview somewhat comical, and I feel like it feels very in line with how we talk. It might be a little crass on my end, but my first thought was, oh, this is your exit interview. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

And then I thought about that. I thought this is a way to um bring everything to a conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I think in that in that situation though, that makes me like the HR department for Earth or something. Yeah. Um, so I hope I don't mess this up, but I wanted to bring a little bit of that that levity in here at the beginning because that's very much been a part of our conversations. I remember in our interview, we talked about how people come up to you and ask you the strangest things. Um, and with no filter, and someone walked up to you out of nowhere and asked, How does it feel to be dying? And you and I have laughed about that a lot because all of us are dying. That is just the fact of life. That's that's how this whole thing works. Yes. And I loved the way that you phrased it though, is that you just have a much better idea of when than most other people. And with that text that you sent me, I don't know, Target or End Date, whatever you want to call it, is much, much clearer. Some of the things I want to say out of the gate before we really get into it, you were one of the first guests of the podcast way back when the format was much different. It's one of the most listened to episodes, and it is the episode that I get contacted about the most. And so I thought that's something that I wanted you to know, that it has been a very important episode for me, but also a very important episode for others. And I think that's something I don't know if we've really ever discussed that, but I'm honored that you were willing to do that conversation then, and I'm I'm really honored that you want to do this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Well, thank you. And I'm uh paying attention, but there's something that I'm hoping that we can read as it will help uh explain how I feel about all of this.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

You're not doing he's not doing Sudoku. Um, I can I can promise you that. A couple of the things that I want to maybe mention before we get into this, it has been a long time since I've done an interview like this. The very first anonymous call that I did was almost exactly a year ago. So hopefully I don't mess this up. Again, I'm honored that you that you even wanted me to do this. And I think just for clarity's sake for the listeners, I think I'll probably, for the most part, when I say last time we spoke, will refer to the last interview. Although you and I have met up, I've come to see you probably every two to three months since then. So we've had many conversations, but I think to keep that clean, um, I'll probably say last time we spoke and in in reference to the last interview. I think in general, there's kind of two directions that I see this conversation going. I think there will be talk about now, what's going on now, how you're feeling now, and then also looking back on your life. Last time was very much looking forward in a sense, you know, on the podcast called When We Die Talks, of course, we were talking about what happens next, what what is that about? But this is a very special conversation, a very different conversation. And so I I think this one I wanted to talk more about your experiences now and looking back, because I think that's kind of what's really important.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Did you find what you wanted to no longer look a little bit? Keep talking and then can respond.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

We can also, it could be something that we read at the end, or do you feel like it No, it's uh somewhere in this um journey of conversation.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Go ahead. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

It'll uh it'll come up when it needs to come up. Yeah. Well, yeah, if you're ready to dive in, I think the best place to start with this is how you're doing right now, maybe giving some information about kind of the news. I mean, I kind of shared a little bit of it from your text, but you always had this really maybe peaceful outlook on death, it seemed to me. And so I'm curious how you're feeling now and and what is your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_02 7:50

That's a good place to start.

ALS Reality And DNR Plus

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Um first of all, um for listeners, I'm an LS patient, and uh that type of LS I have is in my chest and my throat. In those patients, um normally have two to three years to live, and I'm at uh two and a half, and so um this might be uh a little bit of a strange uh thing to say a TMI, but patients in my condition, LS patients, have one or three ways to die. It's either by choking to death from water or food and suffocating and um basically um fighting it to the end, and then you die from one of those two anyway. So I have a very, very strict uh DNR and what's also called uh plus, which means uh it's a kind of uh beyond DNR. I will not take any interventions. My nurse season wants me to think of my water and I refuse because um I want to know that my let my body speak to me when it's time and so um I feel that um I'm a member but the Ba'i faith as we've talked about and Baha'i emphasizes the gift of life, but also emphasizes that the essence of us never dies. People call it the soul, people call it consciousness is by a different lot of resuming names. So my big dilemma has been um never to squander my life, to throw it back at the gift giver, but also not uh be afraid of dying and so and to hold on to life greedily till the end. Well I'm uh two and a half weeks ago. I woke up at three in the morning and I'm just laying here in bed and thinking and I realize um I do not have faith in what the high faith says about life continue on one of his passages, he even says uh I made death as a messenger joy. Not that we should kill ourselves. What he's saying is that the next spiritual world Christians and many other places call it the heaven is a joyous continual experience of uh serving and um existing. The Bahritis have a lot to say. Anyway, what I'm saying is this it gets to your question, how am I feeling now? I came at a real peaceful level of saying it's okay to just as a matter of fact, I felt like I was showing my faith in God by saying it's okay to die and so um with that I'm choosing to um because food in this drink is really a hazard to me now. I choke a lot. Yeah. So basically starting on Friday, I'm gonna start abstaining from food and water, but I'm pretty much at peace with the dying. The other part I say to my hostel nurse, um this is the part that um is going to take um a level of uh determination that I have not experienced. So yeah. I'm in calm, I'm in peace.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, it does. It actually answers a couple questions I have because I mean I think that's why we've connected so well. Maybe not the only reason. I think there's a lot of reasons we have, but I have this fear, and you have presented this peace in the face of this really difficult diagnosis. And not saying that you haven't had your moments, but you know, when we're together, you know, it always is you have peace in that. And one of the other questions that I was gonna ask about is I know Baha'i is this very strong foundation for you. And I know with some people, towards the end, that foundation can get rocked. Um, and it sounds like for you it ha it's become even more sturdy, it's become more foundational. That feels like uh redundant, but it sounds like you're finding peace in that and and your beliefs and that you're trusting in the religion that you have you have followed for a long time.

Faith, Doubt, And No Dogma

SPEAKER_02 14:39

It is true. Um, in a strange way, this disease has turned into a gift, in that it has caused me to think about my not only Ba but all the great religions. With the beauty of Baha'is, it opens up spirituality connectedness with God, but it shows all the great traditions that can do that. It's kinda like there's a scene teaching in Baha that says this is the changeless faith of God eternal in the beginning and eternal in the end. And what that is saying is uh take the Columbia River. I've been to the one in five um uh places as it says this is the beginning. Yeah. And it's upon Columbia and I took a drink from that. Oh my gosh. It's the purest water. Well take that as Christianity and uh with the being sitting at the foot of Jesus face to face. Well that's his pure source of God's word to man. Well as uh water goes downstream, what happens? Another river points in and that's a person saying, Oh I could I think it says this. And by the time it gets to the Columbia, take a drink at that one. A little bit different. Yeah. And it's not to say the purity is not there. It's just much harder to find it. And so what Baha'i is to me is the same truths that were taught in all of them, minus the dogma, minus the superstitions, minus the rituals. But the beauty of it also is it says science and religion should agree and is one of the ways that for me uh consolidated, if you wish, confirming my belief, Alice is giving me lots of time to look at all these great traditions and go, they really are the same source. Yeah. And we're all going to the same place. Yeah. And um I've thought a lot about nihilism, the Aisha belief that there's nothing meaningful in life and there's nothing after death. And um it's interesting. That's a good question of how do we confirm that there is something. Well, to believe there is nothing is also a belief. Yeah. And the people that are advocating that, they've looked at all the parts of religion that they go. And it's parts of the ancient religions that are nonsense. And uh they're saying, oh, and the god that the ancient ones talk about is normally an anthropomorid being. I know a guy that actually is of a religion that says I can tell you his name what planet he lives on. So, you know, to me this six galaxy, oh no, the galaxy, the um known universe. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's elegant, it's a little big, about ninety-three billion light years across. Well, I look out at that and I go, for me, it's gotta come from somebody somewhere. Yeah. So the idea that life is meaningless. Well, you find meaning every day.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

And you're a person. It's a choice in some ways, right? Oh it is. It's a total choice. Um my friends that say they're analysis. They do meaningful things every day because even Nietzsche um he almost went mad, or I think he did, because he leaned so heavily into meaninglessness. Yeah. That he um went crazy. Yeah. We are creatures that must find meaning. Yeah. I think is a spark inside of this.

Gratitude And The Fear Problem

SPEAKER_01 21:00

I am curious because you mentioned it last time, and you mentioned again here the gift of this that I think a lot of people would find that hard to believe, right? And there's this gift that it has given you this time to really dive into these religions and your religion and find the beauty in it. When I started this journey, I thought it was all about conquering this fear. And I think even more recently I've realized I'm trying to intellectualize getting over the fear. And when I thought I was gonna lose my dog last month, it was like all these emotions came up. And for a second, there was this feeling like, well, I've been doing all this work for three years. I've been talking about death all the time. How come I'm still upset about this? And it's like, well, you can't intellectualize it. And so I know I'm not conquering the fear, and I still think that's part of the journey and exploring and finding what I believe, and you have pushed me along the way, but I know that it's changed the way that I look at life and how I see The beauty in things, and I think one of the things like gratitude. Um, and I think the first time I mentioned it was with you. We talked about it with that quote of how does it feel to be dying? Like, I think every time I've come here when I leave, it's not necessarily our goodbye, but we have said, you know, I could get hit by a car on the way home. There's no guarantees, and so there's this gratitude that has come from contemplating this. And the problem is it's all those kind of cliche lines. It's like, you know, grateful to wake up for another day. And it's like when you start tuning to that, and so I am curious for you, you know, what are some of the other gifts that have come from this? Because there are gonna be tons of people that are gonna be like, You're crazy, this is not a gift.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah, and it's um it's a balance, it's a balance, it's a gift uh to me. I would never wish on my wish any. Yeah. So um Yeah, there is a caveat with that. Yeah, and that's uh um it's kind of like do you read music?

Music, Mystics, And Mystery

SPEAKER_01 23:06

No, I don't, but I've tried.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, music is language, yeah. But if you hold the paper up, it's paper and ink, yeah. It's meaningless. And even when you I play guitar of a sitting in a room with a with a bunch behind me. And I take a piece of music, and for those that um understand it, I play a lot of uh finger style, Chida Kantamium, and you all stuff. And I start passing a piece, and my gosh, it's like pulling teeth. Music on paper is meaningless. You can read it, you can read it, and it's all in your head. But when it um the practice all at once, the piece you're playing magically becomes music, has come off the paper into the instrument in you, and you become one with it, is magic. Yeah. Then it's poetry, and the place of poetry and music is our soul. We can think and think and think, but there's always a but to any answer, any um philosophy. Unless the world is full of philosophers. But to be a great musician, to be a great poet, that's a world of mystery. And uh the great mysteries of the world. Um Oregon Master, Eckhart, um, even Saint Thomas Aquinas, um uh Wumi, all of the Attar, all of these guys are um transcend the world of intellect, and they get to a point in their journey of looking for God, looking for truth. Even Saint Thomas Guineas wrote his five volumes approving God, and about a month or two before he died, he had a mystical experience, an encounter with God, if you wish, like for the Christian audience, where Paul on his road to Damascus experience. And Saint Thomas Aquinas stopped writing and said there's nothing more to say. Words cannot describe it. So it's one of those that um not all of us can get the gift of the mystics. Yeah. We can um lean into the possibility that there is something and I'm not uh referring to Pascal's dilemma. Most people have not read that and simplistically uh argue that he said, well, if there's nothing in your belief, well you're not lost anything. But if there's something you've gained it, why you can't do it like that, and that's not really what he's saying. Again, people that uh say that haven't read it. I would advise people to read it, but this is uh level of uh most people there think there's nothing, have really not delved into the possibilities of something. And uh once they start studying it from the tradition of Baha'i and the mystical possibilities, Ecart, and I don't mean the modern, I mean it's French is mousseur or something, but it means master uh and all of these guys. You kind of lean into the thing as there has to be something in science. Most of the people that use scientists as a proof of a non-creative force, they forget this. We know about five percent of the known universe. Ninety-five percent is dark matter and energy or somewhere around there. So there's a lot of unknowns. So uh I maybe have drifted from your question. That's okay. But it's um it's the idea of um I think that uh it's hard when because when people uh contemplate the idea of God, um it's kind of uh high faith even says um God is an unknowable essence. So um it's a hard one to contemplate. Yeah. But the more we think about it, um the more um elegant, beautiful the journey is, and it's really a journey. Truth is not a point, it's a journey. Yeah, it's a path.

What Matters When You Look Back

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah. I said that I felt like there's kind of two parts of this conversation, and you always hear about people at the end having these regrets. There's like the five regrets that people have.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

What are they?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Let me see if I wrote them down. Working too much, not saying what they felt, which is one thing that you brought up in our last talk, was that if someone needs to say something to you, say it, um living for other people. I think that's only four. I don't think I wrote them all down. But just in general, I'm not expecting you to like give me regrets, but I am curious as you look back on your life, what really mattered? What kind of comes to you from there?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Oh, it's funny. Yes, I've been thinking about that. Um time is of course the um one thing you um use up every day. And um in that um in this world we live in, the bands we work in. And it's okay to have things I've as uh guitars I have. They're beautiful. I've got books and books and books. I I've got a lot of things. Um I'm a rich man if you wish by other world standards, but I'm not as middle income by American. But um everything I own will be owned by somebody else eventually. Yeah. So um what I've been blessed in is this even at the end there been a studdy stream of people come through the house, wonderful people. My children, my wife, oh my god, she is a saint.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Um I can attest to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I were teased with her the other day saying everything I've accomplished has been because of her. And I've said in the in here at the end, you can't even get mad at me. Because who can get mad at a dying man? But uh you can only use that so much. Yeah. But I said to her after 46 years of marriage, she does have a look that says, do that again, and you meet God today. So what is most valuable is my faith, my family, and my friends. Nothing else I can take with me. Yeah. I think that all of them I take in my heart, mind, and soul. And I've had uh yeah, and uh the um even the you know the difficult people I've met. There's a verse from the Bible I can simplify in that it's uh easier to love the lovable. Yeah. Well, the people that are not lovable are really from my eye, and um they may be better people. Yeah. So people. Because everything else, if the pharaohs, the kings, the queens, the riches people, Elon Musk, they will all end up in the ground.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, it's all gonna end up in the same place, no matter how hard people try not to.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Yeah. And the things I regret, well, you look back and you go, how could I be so stupid? Um but um everything we we have that we can see by that. Well, if we can see our stupidity, it means we learn from it. Yeah. Everything in life is a learning thing, even our mistakes, our hardest ones, when we realize we hurt somebody. And um if we can apologize to it.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

But so what about I think it's along the same lines, but what do you wish more people understood?

A Wake-Up Call About People

SPEAKER_01 35:15

You have this perspective at end of life with this project for me. It's woken me up to a lot just contemplating death as much as I have now. The gratitude and not worrying about how people think of me, and you know, all these things have come from that. And and there's no, there's no recipe, right? But you know, if you just contemplated, if you didn't run from it, it would change your life. And so, what are the things that you wish that you could just like shake some people and say, hey, you know, like and I think some of it you pointed to at the end of the day, you have this stuff and it's been very important. I mean, you bring up the guitars, but you actively played the guitars. And I know you're a reader scholarly, like you've read the books and you know that they'll all end up with someone else. So obviously that's something that there's things and we say they're important, we think they're important, but and eventually they'll they'll go somewhere else. And maybe if it's even you to me, like is there anything that you're like, wake up? It goes so fast, you know, and it's probably more of a cliche stuff that we hear, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

I think uh the big picture stuff. Um except the fact that people are different. Yeah. And that we're all the same race. Uh all the same. Really science has proven this one race, the human race. We just come in all these different colors and sizes and shapes. Yeah. Culture is difficult. I lived in an island civic for two years. I was lost in the culture. And in their culture they had different things that way men and women should act and so on. So that's the beauty of the world. Um and I'm not saying there's not things that people do that are wrong because anytime you're hating somebody else. But um so with that on a personal level, um enjoy just people. Um it's hard not to have people hit a button. But as soon as they hit the button, you have to realize they've hit a they've found your weak spot. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

And there's something to be learned there.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, and there's a lot to be learned. Because if you think I have a couple friends, I'd always say everybody's an idiot. Well, what they're saying is the world should behave like them. Yeah. Well, that would make the world very boring if everybody was like me. Yeah. And also, yeah, just these common little things. And um but life and time and um they're precious. And so a person has to find uh adventure in their own way. But their greatest adventure really is learning and self-discovery. Um do not be afraid when you're around other people. All of us as uh have a certain level of social anxieties, yeah. But um realize that most likely everybody in the room is having that, and those that are not having them, well maybe they think they're better than everybody in the room, which is not a good thing. I have a friend who many times has said to me, Oh, when they re-entered the room, he knew he was the smartest. And I've thought, how sad, because you didn't learn from anybody in that room. Yeah. So the whole thing I think can be summarized to me in this. Be authentic, um be nice to each other and be happy. Nobody wants to hang around with somebody who is always dark and gloomy. And nobody wants to hang around with people that are making them feel bad about themselves. And we can all see somebody that um is so confused about themselves that they have a hard time being genuine and uh hard part is realizing what that might be. Um but it's a long topic.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Maybe for another time. Yeah. Definitely for another time.

Childhood, Culture, And Mentors

SPEAKER_01 41:41

You mentioned your amazing wife Donna, um, as this person that has had a huge impact on your life. Who are the other people that you look back on that oh I mean I'm sure there's many.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I can name three right offhand. When I was a teenager, I was telling my family this this morning. You grew up in a rough neighborhood. Um where at? In Waterloo, Iowa. Now people are gonna go, where the heck is uh that? But it was um on three sides were factories, rum, uh steel mills and so on. Behind us was uh woods. But um looking straight out my door to the right was um working glass blue collar, lower income, and to the left was um really poor. Well, we kids would go to the poor side, but my house was a safe house. The boys in my neighborhood love my dad because he was uh ex boxer. You have heard the phrase my dad can beat up yours. Yours could I loved them, but so the boys loved him. Any uh and he would see their background of suffering. I give you an example of one of the families. It was I won't name their name, but the year before I kimzin, um their brother uh brother drawn in the river. Oh, there were egg kids. And then the father committed suicide in the garage. While we were living there, the um oldest boy stabbed to death the um mother's boyfriend in the kitchen and so on. And that was just one of many kids. And so when I grew up I was around them. But my family had become by when I was four years old. But um, you know, kids are kids and you play with who you want. And um my family um embraced those kids, but they were the kids, well, of the group, seven went to prison in later life from armed robbery to murder. Now, as children, they were not bad children. They were just lost. Well, when I was thirteen or fourteen, I started being introduced to Baha teenagers. No, they were not um how would I say all people are flawed. Um they were just flawed in different ways. They were trying to make something of their life and these poor kids that I grew up with they didn't have the opportunity. So I'm looking at the kids in the neighborhood and I'm looking at the these other kids and I thought I wanna be like the pie kids, but I didn't know how. So that was kind of my transition. So um it was uh a learning process. Um everything's a learning process. So there's a get close to your question.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah.

Legacy As How You Treated Others

SPEAKER_01 46:33

I think one of the words that I hate most along this topic is legacy. Um and I think mostly because what I see around it is kind of the Western definition of it seems to me permanent. How do I remain permanent? And I think we see that in the world with how do I build an empire that'll last forever? Yeah. But you and I both know, I mean, everybody knows that nothing lasts forever. Yeah, everything is impermanent. And so I kind of ask this with the thought of I need to find another word besides legacy, but how do you hope that you're remembered? You know, what do you, for lack of a better word, what do you see your legacy being?

SPEAKER_02 47:15

As an interesting question, I don't know if I thought about that. I know that as a carpenter, um I love building um things that would outlive me. I signed every one of my remodels and hid it. I mostly would put hidden rooms or compartments in their things. Um few people get more than a bachelor in life. Yeah. But um the people they leave behind if you try to love and be honest, um the um you can leave people with the desire to uh to live coming back to the who influenced me the most um my parents um a guy by the name of Moses Edwards. He was a man from Louisiana, and he I met him at seventeen, and he was a light in my life, and he's now dead. But me and many of his kids around him are his legacy because he guided every one of us. A man by the name of Jay Chapman, who grew up in the south side of Chicago, was a my white man. He hung out in black gangs. He was a really rough kid, but had this epiphany one day and looked at himself and his friends and went, we're just animals. He was the most uh wise man, educated man, self educated um and he took me under his wing and he was a kindest man and have from nineteen on he was my spiritual brother and many other people but um legacy is not in things in material wealth. Yeah. There how did you um change or netting change? How did you treat people to where they felt better about themselves?

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Well that was a great way to answer both questions, and I think it leads me into the next part really well because I want to be a little selfish here, if that's

Stay In The Search

SPEAKER_01 50:37

okay. You have been a teacher to me. You have pushed me in this project, you have sent me multiple podcasts to listen to, you've given me books to read, or I don't know if you mentioned, but I think maybe I could put the pieces together. I came into this as a quote unquote nothing believer. And I still feel like that's predominantly what I believe, but you have pushed me to explore other ideas. And so I know that you have impacted my life tremendously. And if that's a legacy, then yeah, you know, I think that's a wonderful legacy. And and I will try to carry that on and I will try to continue to explore and journey like I'm not giving up on this, but again, selfishly, or I guess maybe one thing that I should say before that is, and this is really between you and I, um, because I'm not gonna tell anybody else about it, but the last time I was here, not in our interview, but when you and I were together, you gave me an assignment to go do something this summer, and you told me that you wouldn't be here. And I think that was the first time that I was really aware of. It's not like that I didn't know. The first time we did that first interview, you know, you said I had a year left. And I think it's just we have this way of thinking, oh yeah, there's always more time. There's always more time. And you gave me this assignment, this task, and I'm I'm very excited to do it. But you had mentioned it with I won't be here anymore. And all that to say, like, I don't know, I'm just very appreciative of all the things that you have pushed me to do and and explore. And so my selfish question is, what do you hope for me? You know, me as a person, and maybe also for the project, because you are a huge part of this project, you know. You were one of the very first interviews, but behind the scenes, you were pushing me to, like I said, read and explore and learn. And you would send me things like, I think you should try to find someone who would talk about this. And there are people that I'm still trying to find, you know, easier said than done sometimes on this topic. But I am curious, what do you hope for me in the project? And again, that's two separate things.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

No, it's um it's a good, great question. I think about the idea of um feeling there's nothing past this life. That's a very thing I've tried to contemplate it as deeply as I think it can be. And um the idea of nothingness is uh creates a huge thing of why am I doing anything? Now, people can I'm not saying that people who think that way are meaningless people who do not have a moral conscience, my gosh, some of them are incredibly moral and serving and everything. But I think that part of it is how the idea of Eric Frankel's book Man's Search for Meaning is a great little read and um meaning in some ways is so vital to us all now for you um since your fear if death has um led you to this journey fear is a healthy thing. We don't kick sleeping dogs, we don't jump off a cliff with other perishes some peers are healthy but the idea of being afraid of that um I think it can be um it can be healthy like you've done with it, because you're I would say I don't know if you're uh truly into the nothingness anymore because you started the exploration of what might be. And um with that is there's a book by Baha'i called the Seven Valleys. And it's uh also Rumi wrote something similar called the Seven Valleys, and it's kind of a Sufi question. And when Baha'u'llah wrote the book, he was addressing a Sufi mystic and uh so the seven valleys. The first valley is a valley of search by Baha'u'llah. And that's where you are. And he says, if you take a thousand lifetimes, stay in the search. And you're doing that. And I hugely respect that and I'm happy. Continue to search. Even the beautiful part of this journey is that for every question you have five answers, you should find five more. It's never ending. Yeah, and that's the elegance and beauty of it. But the more you're into the journey, um the next uh phase of that is uh the valley of love, because it's um you find what you're looking for. Anyway, um I'll send you, I'll give you a copy. Another assignment. Yeah. And um the thing to me that is sad is the people who uh decided they're nothing, there is nothing. Well, to me that's as dogmatic as the certain face saying I found that something and it's my way or the highway. The ones that say you have to believe like I believe. Well, that's as dogmatic as insisting there's nothing. Yeah. So you've entered that search, so I would just say um I can respect that, I can love that. It's not that I don't um have compassion for those that say there's nothing, but often they are people who um I think they more want to say there's nothing. Cause if there's a God, what they think is a heaven, well then it throws them into the lemma of this. If there's a God, what religion is right? Well, there being a God doesn't prove any religion. So that again is another long topic. Sophie, um, you started with what I'm happy about, and I would say don't let anybody persuade you off your journey. If it takes all of your life, it's kind of a fun one anyway, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Yeah, yeah. There's some days that are frustrating, but I've had some really, really beautiful um maybe revelations, um, especially over this past year, yeah, that wouldn't have come without kind of this self-exploration. Yeah.

Rumi’s Poem And Saying Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Um yeah, I think before we kind of wrap this up, um you sent that text and very much said that you wanted to do this. You know, this isn't something that we had discussed. Um, I'm so glad that you did. Um, I'm so glad that we got to do this one more time, and I think people are gonna be very excited to hear from you again. Um but because you prompted this or you I don't know, kicked this off, before we wrap up, I just want to make sure I give you maybe some space if there is anything else that you want to say that we didn't cover.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Um, thank you. I've been thinking the question um, has anything changed for me in the initial interview to now? Um first of all I was to say back to the never ending process of search. That's endeavor to say that my own journey is always a pathway of certainty. Oh my gosh, I bought around a gone challenging myself. Um I think it is um all in the Bible, I think is on Corinthians. He talks about his dying daily. And death to me in the Bible is the idea of falling out of faith, questioning your faith, and it's healthy to question. Um so um I think it's uh one that um I'm glad we talked again. I got a poem by Rumi that I'm gonna read. And it's one that um kind of sums up this journey. Perfect. Yeah. And it's um Rumi, for those that don't know, was a Persian mystic, and he would lived in the twelfth uh thirteenth century. So here's the poem. So you can read where it starts I died.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Hopefully I don't mess this up. I died as a mineral and became a plant. I died as a plant and rose to animal. I died as animal and I was man. Why should I fear when I was less by dying? Yet once more I shall die as man to soar with angels blessed. But even from angelhood I must pass on. All except God doth perish. When I have sacrificed my angel soul, I shall become what no mind ever conceived. Oh, let me not exist, for non existence proclaims in organ tones, to him we shall return.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

It really says life both and the human being has a this thing we call solar, um eternal mind, and it's it lives forever, it's as a starting point, but it's eternal. Yeah. So um thank you for taking time to come here to Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

I do have one last thing that I'll say. The last time you mentioned a friend of yours who said the nicest thing to you, and it's something that men very rarely say to each other, and I don't want to copy them, but I do want to say I do love you, and I am deeply grateful and thankful that you met up with me at that coffee shop when I was I don't even think I had an episode of the podcast out yet. I think we sat and talked for two hours that day and then planned the interview and have met up, you know, like I said, every couple months. I am so deeply grateful for our friendship. I did not expect that from this project. I did not expect to meet someone like you. And I yeah, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and yeah, I do absolutely love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Well, thank you. And in a relationship like this goes two ways. Um, we both affect each other, and I can say I have a love for you as well, and uh you made me think in that way we such a good, so thank you. Yeah. And continue this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

I will, I will. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Thank you.

Afterward, Keep Going And Stay Curious

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Okay, well.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

That was great. After we wrapped up, Don had his wife searching for a specific book he wanted me to take home. It was a collection that had the seven valleys in it, something he'd mentioned during our conversation. But he had multiple copies and he wanted me to have a particular one. And then he mentioned a video he wanted me to watch. And then he was back to the book and said he had someone I should talk to once I read it. So even at the end, even right at the end, Dawn was still Dawn, still pushing, still curious, still pointing me somewhere new. Don told me he knew we'd see each other again in the next life. And I want to be honest, that's pretty counter to what I believed up to this point. But in that moment, it didn't feel like something I needed to push back on or think too hard about. And not to protect his feelings, but because it just felt true. I said I thought we would too, and I meant it. I still can't fully explain that feeling because it wasn't like some big like. Life-changing moment where everything shifted. It just felt like deep down, somehow I knew. And I'm okay not knowing how to explain it to you. I'm okay just holding on to it, whatever it was. When I finally got up to leave, it was hard in a way I haven't really experienced before. I've lost people. I still remember the last real conversation I had with my grandpa. I just didn't know at the time that it was the last one. Knowing you're saying goodbye and that it's actually goodbye is something different. Even now, as I write this hours after leaving, I think I've barely begun to grasp what that actually means. I guess that's what I want to leave you with. Not a conclusion, just the same thing he kept handing me every time I walked out of that house. The encouragement to keep going, keep searching, and to stay curious.