When We Die Talks

Anonymous #37 — Can Faith Change What It's Like to Be With Someone Who Is Dying?

• Zach Ancell • Episode 59

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This week's caller is a retired physician who spent decades at the bedside of dying patients and now works at a funeral home. They have been present for death on both sides: as the person trying to slow it down, and as the person who shows up after. Somewhere in all of that, faith became the thing that held it all together.

This is a conversation about what it looks like to build an entire life around proximity to death and come out the other side more certain, not less.

We talk about the difference between the brain that perceives and the brain that just keeps the lights on, what it felt like to be airlifted off an island during a military coup at 22 years old, and why the anatomy lab might be one of the most quietly spiritual places a person can sit. We also get into what families get wrong about what their loved ones are experiencing near the end, why the body is so complicated it's hard not to believe something made it, and what it costs a person emotionally to keep showing up for other people's worst moments without breaking down.

In this conversation:

  • What the brainstem keeps doing after the upper brain goes quiet, and why families often mistake that for suffering
  • This is the anatomy book mentioned during the call: Body of Work: Meditations on Mortality from the Human Anatomy Lab by Christine Montross
  • Why promising to be there at the deathbed changed how this caller practiced medicine
  • Being airlifted out of Grenada in 1983 and what that moment did to how this caller decided to live
  • What burying your emotions to help other people actually does to you over time
  • Why the caller can't understand choosing to believe there's nothing after death

Book Recommendations: The Bible

All Anonymous Book Recommendations: View the full list

Video Episode: If you'd like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube

About When We Die Talks: When We Die Talks is a podcast built around anonymous conversations about death, loss, and how contemplating mortality shapes the way we live. If you’re new here, start with the Episode Guide. It’s designed to help you find conversations that match where you’re at—curiosity, grief, hesitation, or openness.

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Want to share your thoughts? Leave a voicemail at 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Messages may be featured in a future episode. If you’d like to have a full conversation, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at whenwedietalks.com.

Retreat Aftershock And Giving Forward

SPEAKER_00

When you decide that you're gonna be there for them, a lot of times you you have to bury your own emotions. You have people grieving the fact that their loved one is soon to die and they're asking you questions and you you feel that emotion yourself, but y you just don't want to show a whole lot of it. So in doing those things, you have to bury your emotions. And the problem with that, when that happens, is you kind of lose the ability to show those things. So that's kind of a side effect of that, but but does it make me want to do it any less? No.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about it. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. After the retreat I talked about last week, it wasn't until around when the last episode came out before I felt somewhat quote unquote normal. It was maybe 14 to 16 days of feeling like I was trying to find my footing in a life that suddenly felt a little foreign. And then things shifted and I found some clarity that helped me feel like I was back on solid ground. When you go through an experience like this, when you start changing, questioning, seeing things differently, there's a cost that comes with it. The people who knew you before don't always know where to find you anymore. And it's not their fault. It's not anyone's fault. But there's a kind of loss in that. A place where you use it to feel understood that doesn't quite fit the same way anymore. And being surrounded by people for a full week who had the same questions as me was really refreshing. One thing I haven't been able to stop thinking about since I got back is around the concept of Donna. In the Buddhist tradition, Donna is a practice of giving without expectation in return. Generosity as a way of being, not a transaction. Which probably sounds pretty radical in contrast to how we live here in the United States. The director of the retreat gave this talk near the end about giving forward, not paying someone back, but paying it forward are the people you'll never meet. And it hit me in a way that I didn't see coming. Because when I started this project, I'm gonna be honest with you, it was pretty selfish. I was scared. I was trying to figure out my own stuff around death, and I thought, well, maybe if I put it out into the world, it might help someone else too. And to be fair, I've heard from a lot of you that it has, which is still so amazing. But the Donna concept reframed it for me. What I'm actually doing here now, what we're doing, is holding space for people to say things they maybe can't say anywhere else. And maybe that lets them show up in their lives a little more honestly for themselves and for the people around them and for their community. And that just felt like a really powerful shift. But let's dive into this week's call. They spend their career as a physician, and part of that career was devoted to hospice work, to being present with the people who were dying and with families standing beside them. They made a promise to their patients that they would be there at the end, and they kept it as many times as possible. When they retired from the medicine, they didn't step away from death, they went to work at a funeral home. They drive the hearse, they serve as a pallbearer, they put together life celebration services for families who just lost someone. They've been on both sides of that threshold more times than the majority of us ever will be. That faith is not background noise in this conversation. It's like the whole architecture. It shapes how they've done their work, how they've held other people's grief, and how they think about what comes next. And there was something about sitting across from that kind of certainty from someone who has held death as close as they have that I'm still thinking about. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy.

A Doctor Drawn To Death Work

SPEAKER_00

Good. Good. Yeah, I'm I'm glad we were uh, you know, we were able to make this work. I had issues one time and then you had yours, and that's kind of how things go sometimes.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I'm looking forward to this as well.

SPEAKER_02

Awesome. Like you said, we've chatted a little bit because we've kind of had a back and forth and and some reschedulings, but even just in your application, you you have a very interesting background and connection to this topic. So I feel like we're gonna have a very interesting conversation, be able to dive into a lot of things. The first thing to kind of kick things off a little bit, maybe just briefly you could let me know why you even wanted to do this talk, have this conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's I think for a lot of reasons. I don't want to say that well, maybe I do want to say that death intrigues me. And I've had a experience, I don't know if I mentioned it in my application, but I'm a retired physician. And one of the things that I really enjoyed quite a bit when I was in practice is working with hospice patients. And one of the things that I always, as much as it was possible, was to promise to my patients that I would be there for them on their deathbed. Really? And I had the honor several times to be able to do that. And it's always been my belief that death should be dignified and as painless as possible. And I tried to make that happen for as many times and for as many patients as I possibly could. And so I there was that interest, and I'm working, as you know, right now, with the funeral home. And so I see death not every day, but I see it several times a week. And my job with the funeral home is I work on the crew, which it means doing just about anything from being a pallbearer to driving the hearse to doing flowers to doing visitations, and what I do do instead of being a director, is I'm a life celebrant. And what a life celebrant is, as you may know, is you put services together for families, loved ones who have passed. And I have just uh tremendous enjoyment of doing that. I put services together and use poems and music, and it's just an honor to be able to do it. I I love it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

As far as, you know, I I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic, and you know, I have beliefs about life after death, and that not changed. In fact, probably has gotten even stronger the older that I get.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that gives you any idea of why I wanted to talk to you. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It definitely does. You have a lot of elements that play into this topic about death, former career to current careers, your faith. And so I'm excited to dive into those things. I mean, especially I think we're gonna see where this conversation goes. I never have a plan. There's a few questions that I ask and we see where it goes, but I think just getting the perspective from a funeral home, what it's like working on that side of things. But before we do that, we'll kind of get to know you just a little bit more. Obviously, we're keeping the anonymity and everything. After I had a couple of people push back on, I was asking people the city and state where they lived, and some people were like, Yeah, I don't really want to give city because it might give me away or whatever. So now it's what state you live in now and the state you grew up in, because I think where we live and where we grew up are big factors in who we become. And then the other question is what's your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm originally from West Virginia.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And up until two years ago, lived there for my entire life, except for times when I was in training to be a physician, and just to go off of a little of an aside, I started out my training at a foreign medical school in Grenada in the Caribbean, which was back in the early 80s. I became embroiled in a military coup of the island when I was there. And quite accidentally, by the way, and approximately 250 other medical students that were there from mostly from the United States. And we were airlifted off the island by the U.S. military in that 1983. That was pretty scary, you know. And and great story then scary scary at the moment, but a great story now. Very scary. And speaking of death, I I can remember when I was being airlifted on the island and talking to one of our servicemen, and I asked him if any of uh people that had come to rescue us had been killed, and he said that they had been. And it was one of the most sobering. I mean, I'll never forget it. And I remember telling him that for the rest of my life, no matter what I do, I would would never be able to adequately repay the sacrifice to help get me out, and that I would try to live my life as best as I possibly could to justify that sacrifice that happened for me. But so I was there and then I I came back to the U.S. and did training. But other than training, I lived in West Virginia, practiced in West Virginia, and now I live in Pennsylvania. And my favorite book, wow, that's I would have to say the Bible is my favorite book.

SPEAKER_02

See, from your application going into this, I was like, I have a feeling it's gonna be the Bible. And the one thing that surprises me is this is around the 70th anonymous call. And I was thinking coming into this, I was like, I wonder, wonder if we'll say the Bible. Not everybody that calls in is religious, right? You know, it's people from a whole bunch of backgrounds, but nobody's ever said the Bible. And so I thought coming into this call is like it's kind of crazy, but I I just had a feeling.

SPEAKER_00

And so it might be Your feeling was your feeling was right on.

SPEAKER_02

And maybe it's a little trite, but why is the Bible your favorite book?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I'm strong in my faith, and you know, I get strength in my faith from the Bible, of which, you know, I read from every day, and the Bible and scripture has been there for me in some of the most difficult and trying times. For instance, the you know, getting rescued from Grenada, and you know, God has always been there for me. And so I think that's why the Bible for me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I could speak to that a little bit, but it probably segues really great into how I kick off really these conversations.

Heaven Purgatory And Eternity

SPEAKER_02

And so maybe we should just jump into that with the question of what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_00

Because I do believe strongly as a Catholic that there is a life after death, heaven, and not everybody believes this, but you know, I also believe in purgatory and kind of look at purgatory as we go in as brass and we kind of are made to turn into gold so we can spend the rest of our eternal lives with God. And I do believe in a hell, although I for somebody to go there, because we do come from a loving God, things have to be pretty dire for that to happen. I also believe in what form? I don't really know, but I also believe that we'll see those whom we love that have passed on before us when we die as well. And I've always since a young child. And as a young Catholic boy, you know, there was, I think a lot of Catholic boys think about becoming a priest, but that's not something that ever happened. So I I just have always believed in heaven. And my thought is we're here, you can be good, but there are things that you follow that kind of shape you morally. And that's where those values come from. And it's something that, like I said, is extremely important to me. And I try to do the best I can in a positive way for my family, people I come into contact with to hopefully be able to have that eternal reward.

SPEAKER_02

Well, one of the questions that I often have, I I did not grow up religious. And so one of the things that I'm always curious about, what are your thoughts on eternity? Because when I think about eternity, I'm like, man, that's a long time. And so there's other things, you know, as I'm exploring this topic and kind of trying to figure out what I believe, what feels right. And so this might not be completely accurate to Buddhism, or maybe it's a sect of Buddhism or whatever, maybe it's Hindu. I don't know. But come here and have this experience as a human or whatever, and then go back. And I am butchering this. This is uh kind of getting ridiculed for this. You go back and then it's not necessarily eternity, you know, it's like, okay, you spend time there and then you come back and you live another life. Like there's lessons to be learned here and this and that. And so I'm always curious about eternity because eternity that seems like a really long time to me. But like, is there still gonna be stuff to find fascinating in eternity when eternity is forever?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, touching on your last point, yes, I I would like to think that. And if you've ever watched, and actually, this is kind of topical right now because my wife has been watching this show about people that have had near-death experiences and how they describe, I mean, anywhere from bright lights and seeing their relatives and their relatives saying, No, it's not time for you to be here, and they go back and it it just is all everything that you see in these people. One thing for sure is that their lives have been incredibly changed from that, and they're incredibly happy, and they don't fear death anymore because they because they've seen what it's like. And you know, I've had people say to me, Do you think that's really real? And I and I'm like, Well, it's happened to so many people, people in the medical profession, people from all walks of life around the world with no contact. Exactly. For us to say, well, it's just nah they're they're seeing something, there is something to it. It just happened to too many people. So I think we get some sort of clue by listening to them. But it's as I often try to go to Bible study once a week, usually on a Saturday morning. And when you think about eternity, it it is a concept that is really difficult to wrap your head around because it's improbable. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Or not improbable, but it's impossible to understand. It is improbable is the wrong word. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know you're bored, and at some point it ends, you die. And that's what we know living here. The concept of forever and ever and ever and ever without an end is the other thing, you know, you think about it, it almost makes your brain want to explode. And we kind of call it a duct tape moment. So where you need to use to keep your head together. Yes. I like that.

SPEAKER_02

I like that.

SPEAKER_00

So it's a very difficult concept to understand, and I don't know that we will ever fully know or understand until we're hopefully lucky enough to get there. It's like you said, you use the word unfathomable, and it really is. I just know what God stands for, and I desire to be a part of that and to want that. Otherwise, I mean, why I know there's some religions that, if you want to call it that, that don't actually believe in a life after death. And yeah, and I kind of like, well, what are we here for? Why do we try to do good things knowing that that's there? We just go into the ground and that's it. I I just have never it's not that I criticize. Um it's just not something that I can really understand that that that's it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, it's definitely why I started this show or this project in general, is you know, my belief for most of my, I don't know. I it's hard to classify these last couple years as I've been going through all this, but for most of my life is that nothing happened. And there's a lot of not shocking, like a lot of fear and anxiety that came up around nothing, which I think also nothing is very similar to eternity in the sense of can't really fathom what nothing is. We'll probably after we'll have to talk, we'll have to exchange some text or something. Because I get that the eternity would make your brain explode. I think the nothing might make your brain implode. So and it's not a duct tape experience. It's like something that we need to prevent it from collapsing on itself. But I'm I, you know, I'm getting too weird now.

SPEAKER_00

That's a good thought. No, that's a good thought. Like, I'll give you a an example of something maybe close to that, is to sit and look at an image from one of the telescopes.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you're having it describe to you that it's light years away. And you know, and knowing what a light year, you could spend several lifetimes and it's that far away out there, but because of our knowledge of something that's finite, we'll never get there. And then to look at that, know that it exists, again, that's a duct tape moment. And when you think about it, I mean your brain wants to explode. Yeah. And I I've thought about that every every time I look at images from like the Hubble telescope like that. And I know there's another one out there that even has brighter images and looking into other galaxies, it's insane.

SPEAKER_02

It's wild.

SPEAKER_00

It's just it's it it is. It's so that's really the closest thing that I can compare it to, but neither instance looking at a planet that that's far away or eternity, it it they're just really difficult things to try to grasp and explain.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think that's also one of the wonderful things about being a human is just having the ability to think about these things. Like it's not something that I mean, I I guess I could be wrong. I don't think my dog is sitting there looking up at the night sky and like thinking about the moon and all these things and getting on my computer when I'm gone and like looking on looking at a Hubble telescope. I don't, you know, my dog's not doing that, I don't think. Maybe I should, you know, put a camera on him more often. But it's fascinating to think about this stuff, and I love that we we get to do this as humans. And I love that you and I are getting to have this conversation with different thoughts and theories about what happens.

Hospice Dignity And The Body

SPEAKER_02

I could see that conversation very easily spinning off into a conversation about theology and all these big picture ideas, which I would find fascinating and be enjoyable, but I would be remiss to not want to talk to you about what you're doing now. And I guess even what you're talking about as a physician and working with hospice patients. I mean, I think that's this whole project started with me on this search of trying to figure out what happens when we die. And then not necessarily figure out, but hear from other people, learn theories, you know, just explore it. I don't think it's something that I necessarily will quote unquote figure out. But as it's turned into these anonymous calls and I'm talking to more people, I've realized that this project is much more about the humans that I get to talk to. And so it's fun to ask that question of, you know, and start everything with what do you think happens when we die? But this is a topic that a lot of people are really afraid to talk about. There's a lot of taboo around it. There's a lot of fear and anxiety, and I think rightfully so, because one of the things I think has happened is we don't see death the same way anymore. And so I am curious about what things from being a physician and working with hospice patients at one point of your life to now working at the funeral homes. And so I'm curious about just the experience of sitting with death, sitting with people who are passing, and then also sitting with them after they have passed.

SPEAKER_00

I get exactly what you're talking about. For me, you know, going into medicine, if you are, in my opinion anyway, if you're going into it for the right reasons, um, you go into it for altruistic reasons, for a purpose higher than yourself, that it's for other people to have a positive impact with people. And try to, as physicians, we try to, along with God, give people a good quality of life for as long as we possibly can. And sometimes, you know, it doesn't always work out that way. And sometimes that's difficult. Right. It happens, and it's it's kind of like a Double-edged sword, because I'm a Christian and a Catholic and I get to know them. I I have a feeling, although it's not up to me, that they're they're going to a good place, but I know they're sad that they're leaving, and I know that it's an awful difficult thing for families and patients themselves to have to go through. So that's one of the reasons why I as a started to make that assurance to my patients and to gravitate more to that palliative care and hospice is to be able to be there with people, patients during probably the most difficult time in their lives. And oftentimes in their families' lives. And so to make the exit as graceful, dignified, and as painless as possible. And then once they've passed is to continue that dignity with their body which remains, and to help family deal with their grief over that loss. When I started, one of the first classes that you take as a physician is anatomy. And when you take anatomy, you're dealing with cadavers, the people that have willed their body to science. And one of the things that you do at the end of the class is the remains of the people who have given themselves, it's hard to explain how important that is, that they're doing that in order that you can learn on them to help other people. And that's huge. I mean, as I'm talking about it, it just gives me chills. And then one of the things that we do is after cremation takes place, then we invite the families of these people who have willed themselves. We have a service for them. So it's very dignified and respectful during the time that the course is taking place and then at the end. And I kind of carry that kind of respect and dignity for them once they've passed. And that includes the visitation and then cremation, then the service, the funeral service itself or the life celebration, and then on to the cemetery.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And praying for them that they're going to have that ability to be able to experience this difficult to explain and grasp concept of forever and eternity.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I was trying to do a book club for this project. I've tried it a couple of times, and I think it ultimately ended up being just my dad and I, which was still fine. I read some interesting books, and I'm completely blanking the name. But at this point, I had read, I don't know, eight, nine, ten books about death, some fictional, but then some, you know, very much nonfiction. And the one that really got me, and I can't remember the name of it, but it was, I think it was a woman. I'll add it to the show notes and I can text you after if you have any interest in it. But she basically talked about doing an anatomy class and taking apart a body and this and that, and you know, and taking apart a body sounds that was not a great way of phrasing that. But yeah, kind of doing the whole process. And it was like the first time that I've been really like I've really been kind of searching for the I don't know, many names for it, you know, soul, self, eye, whatever it is. And and my my focus had been on that so much. And then I'm reading this book about this class, this anatomy class, and I was just like, I never thought about my body. And oh my, I was so uncomfortable reading that whole book. And so I'm kind of I'm getting chilled also hearing how these people donate their bodies to such an amazing cause. And then the respect that's kind of turned around and given to those families. I think that's really amazing.

SPEAKER_00

When you're sitting there and usually anatomy course goes on for most of the year, and you you go through different what we call systems of the body, you know, the brain and the nervous system, the gastrointestinal system, the cardiovascular system. And when you sit there and you're doing the work and you're learning about all of these different aspects and how everything works, and you can get lost and think about this person who's laying there in front of you used to be somebody that was up walking around that had a life that dreams, goals most of the time, had a family, had kids, had their own interests and hobbies, and thought enough of what they could possibly do for the betterment of physicians in training in the future that they they give of themselves to you. And when you see, and I don't know whether you kind of got this from reading this book, is when you see all of this and you learn how all of this goes together, to think this all came together without the supervision of a higher being ludicrous. It's just like, oh, this all came from the Big Bang theory, and this just all came. It's crazy to think that there wasn't a what I would call God some sort of divine intervention that had a yes, that had a role in this because the body is so complicated. And just to think that that just all comes together without some force, some being um in charge of that is mind-boggling to me. And going through all of that um just makes you believe that is the case with a higher being even more when you're done with that.

SPEAKER_02

I like the confidence. I'm just gonna flat out say, you're not gonna get me to sign up for an anatomy class. I don't think that's in my future. I don't think that's something that I'm gonna willingly sign up for, but I hope that's not the only prerequisite for for finding faith in something bigger. Not at all.

SPEAKER_00

For me, it just kind of, I think it kind of reaffirmed everything

What Families Misread About Dying

SPEAKER_00

to me.

SPEAKER_02

I do have this, again, because you have this really interesting background, and I'm probably not gonna ask this the right way, but if we look at death as like a point in time, there's before death and after death, and of course there's a lot that happens before. And when I talk about after, I'm more talking about like what you're doing in the funeral home and stuff like that. I'm more talking about the moments closest to when someone dies and the moments closest to after someone dies. And those are two vastly different experiences. I would say the stuff before really is a lot about the person who's dying, and the stuff after is a lot about the people who are left behind. Not exclusively, correct. But I'm curious about what you see. And I don't know if it's like what's something that you wish people knew about people who are dying. And then also like on the other side, again, not necessarily a well-formed question, but like what are things that you wish people knew about those two things? Because it's kind of rare, at least in my case so far, to find someone who has experience dealing with people and those experiences on both ends or both sides.

SPEAKER_00

No, I I get what you're saying. Death, I think the reason that people fear it is because we we know that physically we're not gonna see them anymore. We hope that at some point in time that we are gonna see them again. So I think that is one of the most upsetting things is to see that their life and what we know of them in a physical sense is gonna be gone. We're not gonna see them every day. We're not gonna be able to joke with them, to have dinner, to go out and do the things we do every day that you know, that I think in a lot of ways that we kind of take for granted. And all those things are gonna stop. And I think people fear and worry about what that's gonna be like when they're gone. And what I tried to do to ease people's minds is during the process of death is to try to educate. A lot of people think that certain times people can suffer, they can be in pain, but I always tried to make it where it it wasn't that way, and that this is just a whatever process they're going through that that is bringing their death about, whether it's cancer, heart disease, chronic lung disease, kidney failure, whatever it is, the body's only made to be able to withstand so much, and it is an amazing organism in and of itself, but you know, there comes a time where the disease process that the body just can't basically it wears out.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so getting people to understand that one of the things people would do, and and I just got to the point where I would listen to the question, but I people would say, Okay, well, when do you think it's gonna be? How long? I mean, is it gonna be hours, days, weeks, whatever? And so what I would say is just from what I know and from my experience, I really can't tell you for sure. You can tell when somebody's close to passing, especially you can notice their breathing becomes labored, and people have a thought that when they're watching somebody that's having labored breathing like that, or breathing really slows down, oftentimes the person who is passing is not even conscious that that's even going on.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so family members and friends look at that and they take that to believe that they're suffering when they're really not.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, the body's doing what it does, right?

SPEAKER_00

It's it's the b body is doing what it does. It, you know, we have an upper brain level that allows us to process things, but when that has stopped working, then the basic part of the brain, which is what we call the brain stem, which is where a lot of the neurological beginnings for heart rate, breathing, things like that, that's located right there. So those continue to work even when the upper part of the brain has stopped working. And so when people see that, the upper part of the brain, which allows you to perceive things, that's gone. But a lot of families don't understand that. So what I would had tried to do is to get people to understand that. And it does help, but it's just the fact they're not going to be in their physical animated state anymore after that stopped.

SPEAKER_02

The one thing that it's always a reminder to me of as I've gone further into this, death is the ultimate unknown, right? And so we don't like the unknown. We want we want answers, we want a step-by-step process. And so, like those people asking those questions, it's like, hey, I want to look on the chart and say, okay, you know, if I put these things in, it says, oh, it's gonna be three hours and 16 minutes. You know, and it's just that's just not how it works. And so it is the ultimate letting go, right? And and the people around it also kind of have to allow that. And that's hard because it's not something that we're really trained to do in life is to let go. It's to want definitive answers and clarity in all these things.

SPEAKER_00

What you just said is exactly right. You know, we're trained to look at something and see it and understand it. Problem solving. Exactly. But there is, you know, there comes a time where problem solving just is not the concept that is pertinent anymore. Yeah. And and that's something that's difficult to really grasp at.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, to me.

SPEAKER_00

And you struggle, like I said, you kind of struggle with it as a physician because you want somebody to you want them to be there and you you want to help them as much as possible. But sometimes helping them is just allowing the process to occur and let them go.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, you're exactly right. It's that fear, you know. I believe people, you know, families will say, Yes, I know, we will see them, and that's certainly reiterated during the funeral ceremony. And it's just the fact that you can't see them, you can't talk to them, have them answer. We like to think, I certainly do believe that prayers are heard and uh answered in some ways, but it's it's just not something tangible that we can touch.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you can't put it in a picture frame.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly. And then afterwards, it's just about making their loved one as presentable and look as much like they remember them and not show the ravages of what disease process, whatever it was, took on them. Like I'll give you, for instance, you know, my my own father who passed away and he had a long life. He lived three months short of 93.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

But he, you know, I I believe that he just kind of said, I don't want to be here anymore. And so he kind of starved himself to death, just refused to eat. And so there's only so much that you can do in a in a situation like that, as far as showing how you want people to remember you. And so in cases like that, that's when families sometimes say, Well, no, I don't want anybody to see them. And then you get into where people have made their wishes known after they pass, and they don't want a visitation, they don't want to be seen. You're gonna have the casket in there, they want it close. So all of that changes. It's according to what people individually want. And some people, and I I have known it frequently, where plans aren't made, and maybe something that they did want wasn't specifically vocalized when they were alive because they didn't want to think or have to deal with something that is frightening to them. They just don't want to acknowledge that it's coming. And I get that. I I understand that. Yeah. Um in dealing with people that have passed after that, it is different for each individual, each individual family. No two are exactly the same. And I and I have learned quite a bit about that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00

It's I look at it as an extension of why I went into medicine to begin with, and that was to help. And I still feel like I'm helping, but in a different way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. We'll wrap up here in a second. I do have like a normal final question, but I do have one more here for you. And maybe it's a a weird question in some ways, but do you have a preference? You were doing other things, but you were helping with hospice patients and and whatnot. Like, do you miss being there for that part of it? Or do you like kind of is it what you like that better than kind of the funeral side of things?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's a good question. I would say that I like being part of the process and helping with the process while they're near death.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think I like that better.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But I do like this part, but I but having to pick one, the way I look at it, you're not only there for the patient, but you're there for the family as well. And one thing that I will tell you that is kind of uh, at least the way that it affected me, is that when you decide that you're gonna be there for them, a lot of times you you have to bury your own emotions. Because you have people falling, you know, oftentimes grieving the fact that their loved one is soon to die and they're asking you questions, and you you feel that emotion yourself, but you you just don't want to show a whole lot of it. And I've eulogized, did that a lot. I just thought that was such tremendous respect that you could give a patient. So in doing those things, you have to bury your emotions. And the problem with that, when that happens, is you kind of lose the ability to show those things. And that's something that I've dealt with. I don't cry easily. And there are times when I want to cry and can't. Yeah. And is bothersome. So that's kind of a side effect of that, but but does it make me want to do it any less? No.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but it but it's there for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I have those couple questions at the beginning of the call. And I like to end it with a similar one that I ask everyone.

Burying Emotions And Staying Present

SPEAKER_02

Sure. And so it's what's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I've been pretty privileged to be able to travel a lot of places, and I had I guess you want to call it like a bucket list type thing, is I always wanted to go to all 50 states, and I wanted to be able to go to all seven continents.

SPEAKER_01

How are we doing?

SPEAKER_00

I've been fortunate enough. Yeah, I've been fortunate enough to go, you know, obviously live in North America, and I've been to Europe and I've been to Asia, I've been to Africa, but I haven't been to South America or Australia or Antarctica. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So we're over fifty percent.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would like to be able to do that, but whether that happens, I I don't know. I I'm I I I'm blessed in a lot of ways. You know, I have a wonderful wife and I have three children that, you know, make me proud every day. So I have a lot of good friends. And if I had to to I I would say to continue to travel and knock those continents and and the other thing was to go to all fifty states. And I know I've been to over 40, but I have to write down and see what um see what ones I still need to go to.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um but you know, I've been blessed. There's been bumps, but by and large, I've been very blessed. Right, exactly. Exactly right. So I I think that would be it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for being willing to do this. It was a really wonderful and fantastic conversation. Like I said, we could have definitely gone off on theology and just talked about that aspect of it, but I'm really glad that we talked about these other really important things and and in a different way that I feel like has come up. I mean, I think the one thing that I won't forget from this call is just talking about the anatomy class. Like that's it's something that hasn't gotten talked about a lot on here at least. And yeah, it it brought me back to reading that book and it was just like, oh yeah, I remember just like feeling uncomfortable as I was reading it, but understanding that it's very important. Another of kind of coming to terms with my own death is the fact that this body will, well, as I already know, will change and things will stop working the way that I want them to, and you know, all this stuff. But I don't know. It felt like we had like a very full conversation. We didn't really dive into to your grief work at all. So maybe we'll have to do like a follow-up call down the road or something and hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00

But and I would I would absolutely be open to that. And from my perspective, I applaud you for what you're doing. Oh, thank you. Um, I think you're you're talking about a subject that 99% of us when we talk about it, it's very difficult to talk to the subject, but you are you are doing that. I applaud you. I'm honored to have been able to be a part of this for the last hour. It's it's been growing for me to talk to you about it. And um, and I've very much enjoyed it as well.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, thank you. Yeah, that that means so much to me. There's definitely days where I'm like, why am I doing this again? But then I get on, you know, get on the phone and actually have these conversations. It's all the kind of like ancillary stuff of like, oh, I have to put a social media post together and all this stuff. But when I'm on the phone with people, it's like, oh yeah, just connecting with other humans and having deep conversations. So yeah, I I'm I'm so grateful that you're willing to do this. And yeah, I I don't know. I absolutely I've been talking about it a lot with callers where I would love to figure out whether it's part twos of calls or if there's like some sort of other thing, like I don't know, some like anonymous live thing where other people can ask questions. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out maybe how to to to step this into uh a next stage, but I think that's also just like my creative mind and like, well, not just creative mind, but maybe my Western mind. Like, gotta do something different. I've been doing this anonymous thing for a while. Gotta change it. So if I ever figure anything out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, however you choose to do it, please let me know because I would love to be a part of it. And yeah, I there's so many other things that we could talk about. And you know, I would be happy to talk to you more about the grief work. Um absolutely. So whatever you decide, however you want to pursue that in the future, whether it's a part two or or whatever, please keep me in the loop.

SPEAKER_02

I definitely will. And yeah, thank you. And let's stay in touch. And yeah, I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. You as well. God bless you, and and keep it going.

SPEAKER_02

You too. Take care.

SPEAKER_00

Take care.

SPEAKER_02

Bye.

Closing Thoughts And How To Join

SPEAKER_02

This caller spent more time close to death than probably most people you or I will ever know. And what was most interesting to me was how settled they were, how held. Most of us spent a lot of energy keeping death at a distance. They never had that option. And somehow that closeness didn't shake them. It steadied them. We were fast approaching 75 anonymous calls. 75 people have picked up the phone, talked to a stranger, and said the things they don't always get to say out loud. And I know I say this a lot, but I don't know how else to say it. These conversations are some of the most real things I've ever been a part of. Real people, real lives, real questions with no clean answers. I've been thinking lately about what we fill our heads with. The news is always there, the noise is always there, and I get it, it matters, some of it. But so does this, so do these people. And you get to choose, at least some of the time, what reality you let in. I keep choosing this one, and I'm really glad you're here choosing it with me too. I'll see you next Tuesday. When we die talks exist because people have stories worth telling. And most of them never get told in a way that lasts. Mostone is my attempt to do something about that. It actually started with a guest from the show, and after his interview, he told me how much it meant to have something he could share with the people in his life. So he didn't have to keep repeating himself, and so nothing got lost over time. I couldn't stop thinking about how many people have a version of that. Honestly, all of us do. All of us have a life worth capturing, and people who love us and would give anything to hear it told. Mostone is a guided conversation with me where we capture someone's life in their own words, where they come from, what made them who they are, and the stories they want people they love to know. The recording is yours, private, personal, something you can share with anyone you want. If someone came to mind just now, even if it was yourself, that's probably worth paying attention to. You can learn more at nomastony.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWedietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.