Anonymous #39 — Can You Stop Needing to Know What Happens When We Die?

This episode includes an open and personal conversation about suicide, suicidal ideation, and suicidality, including experiences from childhood. If you're in a tender place with any of these themes, please take care of yourself first. If you need support, Thrive Lifeline is a great resource. 

This caller has spent most of their life in relationship with death, and they'll tell you that relationship started before they had words for it.

A first-generation Filipino American who grew up without a fixed sense of home, they found their way into community death care not through a course or a calling they could name, but through the accumulation of things they survived and the people they stayed for. What brought them to this work was loss. What keeps them in it is something harder to explain: a sense that being present for someone at the end of their life is less about training and more about showing up with your whole self.

This is a conversation about learning to live inside uncertainty, and finding that the mystery of death doesn't have to be something you solve.

In this conversation:

• What it means to grow up without a fixed home, and how that shaped an early, complicated relationship with death
• Witnessing a parent's suicide attempt as a child, and carrying that in relative silence for most of a lifetime
• How a family crisis became the unexpected doorway into community death care
• Volunteering to sit with people who are actively dying, and what that actually looks like
• The idea that suicidal ideation is more common than most people admit, and what changes when we stop treating it as unspeakable
• Settling into "I don't know" as an answer to what happens when we die, and why protecting the mystery might matter more than solving it

Book recommendation: The Merriam-Webster Thesaurus

All Anonymous Book Recommendations: View the full list

Video Episode: If you'd like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube

About When We Die Talks: When We Die Talks is a podcast built around anonymous conversations about death, loss, and how contemplating mortality shapes the way we live. If you’re new here, start with the Episode Guide. It’s designed to help you find conversations that match where you’re at—curiosity, grief, hesitation, or openness.

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Want to share your thoughts? Leave a voicemail at 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Messages may be featured in a future episode. If you’d like to have a full conversation, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at whenwedietalks.com.

Transcript

A Narrow View Of Death

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We have a really narrow perspective of what death is. And it has, I think, led to people overlooking the little deaths that happen all the time. Like you said, death is another word for change, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

And in my experience, the death of living, breathing people, animal friends, like it's everything just leading to more life. So it's really hard for me to call death the end, the end of life anymore.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah. It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here.

Welcome And A Gentle Content Warning

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. This week's colour has spent years sitting with people who are dying, strangers mostly, just being present with them in some of their final hours. It's one of the most human things I can imagine doing. And it came directly out of some of the hardest things they've ever lived through. They grew up as the oldest of six kids with a parent who was really struggling. They became a caretaker before they were old enough to understand what that meant. And the relationship with death started around the same time in ways that stayed with them for decades. What they arrived at after all that isn't peace through answers. It's something closer to peace with not having them. A real lived comfort with not knowing what happens when we die and what it looks like to actually build your life around that. This episode does touch on suicide and suicidal ideation. It's woven into their story honestly and carefully, but it's there. If that's not where you are right now, come back to this one when you're ready. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Hello?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

I'm good. I'm I'm excited to chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

I'm excited to chat with you too. It's finally happening.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Finally happening. Yeah. I guess you have been incredibly flexible with just some stuff that's been going on in my life. But also, I feel like the thing that I need to express right out of the gate is that we do know each other. It is one of the rare instances that, like, I do know who you are. We met through or at a team meditation at one of my favorite places in the world, Bardot. And then we have sat down and had a conversation. But I don't think we really got too much into your story. I know a little bit of your background and what you're trying to do in the death space, but we didn't really talk a ton about this topic of what happens when we die. And then so I think there's still a lot for me to learn about you. We're very, we're new friends. And so yeah, I'm excited to dive in and chat about all that. But I did want to at least express that out of the gate that I do like to let the listeners know when I know someone, I don't know, I feel like I need to be like honest or something. I don't want to lie to people. But yeah, I'm I am pretty maybe I'll cut this. I don't know. But one of the things that I will say, when we did sit down and had tea together, one of the things that I was so honored by was you said something along the lines of the first time we met, one of the owners of Bardo introduced us, or like, oh, you two are interested in death. You guys should connect. And I said something about having a podcast. And you told me your initial response was like, oh God, another white dude with a podcast. And then you listened. And I don't necessarily know the exact words that you said, but it was like maybe like an exhale. Okay, this isn't a douchey white guy, although I don't know, maybe I don't know. But I just was honored that I am self-aware that I am a white dude in a world of a lot of loud white dudes talking about stuff all the time. And it was just like, I don't know, I felt very seen in a way that like I'm definitely not trying to come on here, spout my expertise because I really have none. I'm just really curious and interested in learning what other people are going through, what other people think. And yeah, I don't know. I just really love that you said that. And I feel like it's a fun way to maybe start this conversation. But I don't know. If you want me to delete that, I can delete it.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

No, you don't you don't have to delete anything. I'm glad that stuck with you because it stuck with me too.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Good.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Otherwise I wouldn't be on the phone call.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I guess that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Or maybe that's maybe this is like a you're pranking me or something, and now this is gonna be an hour of you being like, you're an idiot, you don't know anything, which uh that might be a fun spin on things. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see where we get. But I digressed. Maybe we should stop talking about me. We should talk about you. That's what this call's about. And the way that I like to start all these conversations is getting an idea

New Friends And Why Death Matters

SPEAKER_01 5:10

of why you even wanted to have a conversation about death. I usually then say with a stranger, we know each other, so that's not quite the same. But it's still a topic that a lot of people don't like talking about. People avoid it.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

I'm happy to. And I'll just to add on to what you've already shared so far. There are lots of folks with podcasts, lots of white men out there talking about all kinds of things. But you are the only one I know of that's really focusing time and energy in making space for dialogue about death and dying. And the fact that you are so focused on learning and just cultivating curiosity for yourself and for other people is what I think is so special about what you're doing. And yeah, as you mentioned, this is a topic that is important to me for a number of reasons. And I'm just so happy for the opportunity to participate in this project of yours. But the reason that it's important to me generally is that I feel I've reached a point in my life where I feel that I've had a relationship with this from the very beginning that I haven't had a lot of opportunity to talk to others about. And it's a relationship that's just felt very isolating for most of my life. And we're now living in a time where people seem to be more open and more willing to see death as something worth thinking about and talking about and like building relationship with in so many ways. And now that's happening for us, I just feel called to participate. And as you alluded to, I'm working in the community death care space as a volunteer, and that's something that I've been doing for a few years now with a lot of intention, but I do feel like my whole life has been leading to this work and to being able to talk more openly about death and dying and how it affects us and how we should incorporate impermanence into everything.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Because it is everything. Everything.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah. And I just feel that where we live in in the United States, we really don't like to talk about how impermanent everything is.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah. I know you've listened to a couple episodes, so you know the format. Um, I've changed the first question slightly. It's not as easy to ask as it was before. So I'll try I'm trying to figure out like a concise way to say it, but every time I fumble over it. So instead of asking city, state, although I already I already grew in city, I think, because people probably know where I am. But instead, I'm gonna ask what state you live in and then where you grew up, what you call not necessarily home, but I think home. I don't know. See, it's too wordy of a question. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but to get an idea of what formed your ideas about death in this topic. And then the second question stays the same. What's your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Okay. I live in the state of Oregon in Washington. I'm sorry, in in the US, and I've moved here recently from Washington State, which is why I started to say Washington earlier.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Still new.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, I've been here for less than a year. And the question of where I grew up is a really tough one for me to answer. I was born in San Diego, California. And I was born to immigrants. My parents came from the Philippines, and so I am a first-generation American, Filipino American. And shortly after I was born, we moved as a family to Washington State, where my early childhood was. And then in junior high school, I was in Central California because of my dad's work in the Navy. And then in my early adult years, I basically left home as soon as I could and spent my 20s in Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, and then found my way back to the Pacific Northwest where I've been for the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

So it's hard to stay away.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

It's really it is very hard. This is my favorite place to be, I think. And your question about or the background information you gave about why you've decided to start asking this question and acknowledging that where a person's from might really be a factor in their relationship with death and dying is so funny to me because I don't really have a home in my heart and in my mind. I don't I've never really had a home geographically speaking.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

And it has, in fact, it had a lot to do with, I think, my relationship with death. I can't fully articulate it right now, but I think we'll see if we can tease it out a little bit as we talk more. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that's my answer to that question. And then your second one was Book and Your book.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

This is a question I've been asked before, and I'm not gonna change my answer now, but since I was a kid,

The Thesaurus Answer And Language

SPEAKER_00 10:55

my favorite book has just been Thesaurus.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

I love that answer. That's such an amazing answer. That was not especially when you started as a like you started with, yeah, as a kid. Sorry, that uh took me so off guard with that.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Oh, good. I like to surprise people sometimes. Yeah, the thesaurus has been my favorite because I just like words for other words. I'm a writer. Like I said, my parents they raised me to speak English, and I think I was just I loved the Thesaurus for all the ways it taught me how to use the English language.

unknown 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Oh, never did I think that would be someone's favorite book, but it's such a wonderful answer. Oh my gosh. I love it. Sorry. Really was so surprised by that. Thank you. And now we we can get into the heart of the conversation and start with the big question of what do you think happens when we

What Happens When We Die

SPEAKER_01 11:50

die? It's feel somewhere to go from the thesaurus straight into what happens when we die.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Uh, Zach, I don't know what happens when we die. When you ask, what do I think happens when we die? I don't really let myself think about it. I think more about how I I'm okay with not knowing. I think there's a reason we don't know. And in the world we live in today, I think there's a real scary sort of hunger to know everything about everything. Without any real reason.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah. For like control to some extent. Control to feel safe. If I have all the answers, then I can be safe. But not true.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah, I there is, and this is just something that's an idea that's forming in me, um, has been forming in me in the last year, but there's I think a real violence to trying to intellectualize and dissect and research these things that we we just are uncomfortable with, or maybe we're comfortable with them, but we're just not satisfied with being with them and appreciating them for what they are. We have to understand everything about them. What it's making me remember a conversation I had with a teacher and a friend recently about rainbows, and they talked about a research study about rainbows and how they come to be and how we perceive them with our brains and our eyes. And he said something like, Why do you have to dissect a rainbow? Can you just appreciate it for what it is? And that's where I'm at with death. I don't have any theories about what happens when we die. Um I just think that when I die, the suffering that I know will end. The love that I know and the way that I love will have to end. And what I may or may not experience on the other side of the life that I have right now, I just I don't know, and I'm not scared about finding out.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah. This is really this is really interesting because we were first supposed to have this conversation, let's say about a month ago, because I know it was right after my friend passed, and I was just like, I'm weird headspace. And then the second time I came back from my retreat and was in a really weird headspace for different reasons. Well, some for same reasons, and then some for completely different reasons. But on the retreat, one of the it was a very strange retreat. We don't need to go into that here, but I came back and one of the conversations someone brought up the spiritual teacher that I really love and has really helped my meditation practice, has really helped how I look at things. And I was like, oh, I'm almost done with another one of his books. I'll finish listening to that audiobook, and I probably had an hour left into it, and I listened to it, and I'm gonna ruin the quote. But essentially what he said is you can't really fear death. You fear these things that you build around the ideas of it because death is unknown, and there's really there's some real true power in sitting with I don't know. And it's very close to what you said. And I've been thinking about that, and so that I listened to that maybe about a week ago. And so I wouldn't have necessarily had that perspective going into this conversation without doing that. And the one thing that like I'm like, oh, that's that makes so much sense because it death is unknown, it's uncertainty, it's all these things that we don't like sitting with, we don't feel comfortable around it. And I've been having this inkling, I've been doing this for almost three and a half years now in some capacity, not necessarily the podcast. And I think I've I'm coming to this place where you are, and what Ady Ashanti is talking about, of it's okay to not know. And and I think that's scary to say that out loud to some extent is part of it, the project will continue because it's not just about that question anymore. I feel like it's very much more about people's stories and whatnot. But if I just say I don't know and I'm okay with that, does that just mean the end of this project? I don't really care, I don't really care anymore. No, I do, and I'm still very curious and interested to hear what everybody says. But I think it's interesting that I wouldn't have had, and not saying that I'm completely converted in a week after hearing this thing, but I've been stewing on that and really I think I've noticed that in the three years of I've been looking at it in a lot of different ways. I've been researching, like I've been very curious. And it really that's the thing that probably makes the most sense is I don't know, and finding comfort in that. Yeah, it's just interesting timing of things.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

No, it's good. When we were struggling to get this call scheduled, I told you that I trusted the timing. I knew there had to be a reason. We just kept failing. But I'm so glad that's a concept that's sitting with you. I I think it took a long time for me to get to the point where thoughts of death were like the thoughts of what happened after what happens after we die. Like it took a long time for me to get to the point where those thoughts were just something I could be comfortable with, not knowing. The not knowing the uncertainty, and I'm starting to move toward, I want to get beyond just being comfortable. I want to get to the point where I can live in a way where I'm honoring the mystery of death and honoring other mysteries in life, things that I don't really need to know, or I don't know, and I don't need to know.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

And protecting the mysteries that seem to just be a part of the natural world.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, I think one of the words that you said that stood out to me was intellectualizing. That might not be exactly you used some form of it, but I think that's what at least for me, this is not my theory, and it's probably not my dad's theory either. But he's for a long time talked about that science is its own religion in a way. It's a belief system to some extent. I'll probably get flack for that or whatever. But I feel like I've spent my entire life the one thing that I keep coming back to is the big bang theory. It's a theory. And I'm not saying I'm not saying

Letting Mystery Stay Mysterious

SPEAKER_01 18:45

it's not like I I agree more with science or I don't know, then religion. I don't know. I'm saying this all poorly, but like the big bang theory is still there was nothing in there, something like that's like religion. But I feel like I've spent my entire life trying to intellectualize everything, trying to research and study. And I think part of it is just that's how we're taught growing up. And I'm finding through a lot of the things that I've been doing, this retreat, my meditation, to set that down a little bit and trust myself. And that's what I'm hearing from you is like just this deep trust in self to enjoy the mystery of the world. And I think death is like you said before, maybe we talked about this. I don't want to bring up our old conversations too much, but like impermanence is like one of my favorite words, and I think it's one of your favorite words too. But it just shows that like death is this thing right that happens, quote unquote, at the end of our lives, but it's something that's happening all the time in a million different ways. And so it's like we're practicing that mystery all the time. We just don't necessarily pay attention to it because we don't view every little thing as a death. But you could look at death is just constantly happening and not in a it is in a morbid way happening, but it's also just like in a really beautiful way happening all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, we have a really narrow perspective of what death is.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And it has, I think, led to people overlooking the little deaths that happen all the time, like you said. Change death is another word for change, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

And in my experience, the death of living, breathing people, animal friends, like it everything just leading

Impermanence And The Little Deaths

SPEAKER_00 20:45

to more life. So it's really hard for me to call death the end. Yeah. Um, the end of life anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah. You've said a couple things. I'm gonna see if I can I don't know that much about your story. And usually, like with the application process, I get a little information, but you have said a couple things that like I do want to talk about your volunteer work because the nonprofit that you work with is amazing and fantastic. So I definitely want to talk about that. But there's just been a couple lines that you've said, and I'm gonna try to read my notes. One of the things that you said was you've had a relationship with death from the beginning. And then you said it was when you were talking about your like home, like calling someplace home, and you said that you've never had a home, and you think that some of that is or all of that I can't quite remember, is because of your relationship with death. And so I'm curious, there's some mystery there. And I'm interested in if you're willing to speak to any of that.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah. Yeah, I got a lot of stories. And I'm not trying to be mysterious. I just wanna try to there's so many rabbit holes we could go down, and I'm just trying to say focus. On answering your questions as concisely as possible.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

At this part of the call, now we're at the rabbit hole part of the conversation. We're gonna if we get to go anywhere now. It's once we answer that first question and we really talk, I talked a lot. Now it's let's just see where this goes. Let's have some fun with it. The way that I would describe it is you're driving the chip, and I just make some loose suggestions here and there, and we're gonna see where it goes. But there's no course, there's no destination.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

That's helpful. I tried very hard not to want to do that. But yeah, no, I like that whole approach. So we'll just get started. So you asked how you asked about um what I mentioned earlier about having a relationship with death from the beginning. And I can tell you it's not a fun topic for me, but yeah, I say that as more of a warning to you. I'm comfortable talking

Suicide In The Family And Childhood

SPEAKER_00 22:55

about it, but um a warning to you and maybe to definitely to your listeners. But a part of my story does, a lot of my story does include it, includes a lot about suicidal ideation and suicidality in my family, and how that certain events in my life throughout my childhood and in my early adulthood have informed my growth into being so passionate about death care.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah. It's a hard, it's one that does like death doesn't get talked about enough. But then like suicidality is another level of it that it's oh yeah, we don't even touch that. Let's really not talk about that. These are hard conversations, but they're important ones. And so I I I like being able to share those stories when I can because they're they are very important and they need to be talked about.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Thank you for saying that. Um, yeah, so it is a topic that a lot of folks shy away from, and I am learning to to not do that. I'm comfortable talking about it in intimate settings. Yeah, it helps a lot that this call allows me to be anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

But I do feel like a sense of responsibility in making it easier for folks to talk about suicidal ideation and suicide and how these things affect our lives. So when I say that my relationship with death has just been with me since the very beginning, I'm what I mean is that I was born to very young parents. Um, like I said, they're immigrant immigrants, and my mom had a number of mental health issues, and those affected my childhood in a lot of ways. I'm the oldest of six children, and I experienced parentification. I was often very responsible for my younger siblings, and before the age of 10, I was changing diapers and bottle feeding and maybe helping my sisters learn how to read.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

When you were 10, were all your siblings born?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah. Okay. By the time I was 10, I had five sisters.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Sister oh man, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

And my mom, when she had me, I think she was 20 when she had me. So pretty young, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Especially by today's standards.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

And yeah, my dad being in the Navy, he was gone a lot. And so she's just really struggling to take care of herself in a lot of ways, and didn't have all the support she really needed for such a big family. And so her mental health buckled under the weight of life, of not being home where home was for her, which was the Philippines, and not having enough support to raise these children. When I was around the age of 10, I witnessed her first, I should say, the aftermath of her first suicide attempt that I knew of. And yeah, it had a huge effect on me. It made me wonder what does happen when we die? Why would she want to die and leave me here and leave our my sisters here? What could be on the other side of that door? And how do I live on this side of that door, knowing that this happened? And that wasn't the last time it happened.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Um, and so my relationship with death at that time was a painful one. I had a lot of curiosity, but mostly just a lot of pain. Yeah. But I've as I've grown older, looking back, I have a I think a better understanding of what my mom was going through and how much of that might have been like how much of her suffering might have been soothed by having more conversations about how impermanent things are and uh how impermanent her like these sorry, I feel myself getting a little scared to talk. It just feels like I'm entering a minefield.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

No need to apologize.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

But yeah, uh I just looking back, I think there were lots lots of conversations that could have been had with my mother about her longing for death and where that was coming from and how we could maybe develop that relationship with death in a way that felt more supportive to her spiritually and physically. Those are things that I still think about today. Like since all of those experiences, I've just been traveling down this road of like, how do we talk about these things more?

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah. Because that's a huge part of the problem, right? Is that we already just said people don't like to talk about death, they don't like to talk about suicide. I I don't know, the idea of like suicidal ideation. And like because we don't talk about it, that oh yeah, this is just like a really weird thing, very uncommon. I think that's way more common than people know. And I've talked to friends, I remember I had one friend her, I don't know, it was like their child, I don't know, probably 17, 18, 19, was really freaked out because they're having suicidal ideation. And I'm not a professional. I'm just a guy with a phone talking to people holding space. And so I told her, I was like, hey, if they ever want to talk, like I'm happy to talk. Like I've definitely had suicidal ideations. There have definitely been times in my life where it's just, yeah, this it sucks. And I think it's really sad that we think that that's so uncommon, but I feel like I talk to so many people and it's oh yeah, this has definitely been part of my story. So that's why it's important we talk about this stuff. Even though it is hard. And I appreciate you like being so incredibly vulnerable there and talking about this. But yeah, it's stuff that does need to get talked about.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, I agree. It I think more of us live with that in some way. Like then yeah, I would say actually, I'm sorry, sorry. I'm just this thing keeps happening where I start to talk, and then my mouth just shuts itself. I think it's this was my first time speaking openly in any way with a sort of a public audience about it. So I'm stumbling a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

And remember, you're the captain. So if we need to go another direction, we can go another direction.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Thank you. Yeah. I just I think I just wanna add that in the circles that I'm in, where we are really focused on community death care, shifting our language and our thoughts and feelings around suicide and suicidal ideation or suicidality is a big part of what we do.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Because over the years, as I've survived and done my best to just heal from these wounds from childhood, my ideas and feelings about

Talking About Suicidal Ideation Honestly

SPEAKER_00 31:01

suicide have changed tremendously. Um after everything that I went through with my family, I was not a very stable person in my early adulthood. And I was really hard on myself for having thoughts about exiting this life, exiting this body before it was really not necessary. Um, I don't know if that's the best word, but I thought many times about ending my own life. And I'm I would say it's something that I still live with today. It's a tendency I live with today. But what my understanding is, and maybe this is something that people would be really mad at me for saying, but in my opinion, it's having those kinds of thoughts, just not wanting to be here, is for a lot of folks, in my opinion, a very healthy, normal, human response to the oppression that we deal with every day. Yeah, it is not easy to live, to have the things we need to live, to have a home, a bed to sleep in, food, a village, a community, a true sense of community.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

It's not easy to raise kids, it's it's everything is hard. And so having thoughts like that once in a while to me is normal.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Uh so yeah. I don't I don't know how to captain this ship for years.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

No, you're good. You're good. And I definitely wanted to let that breathe. But I I and I always get maybe a little nervous because you're the anonymous one. I'm not. And I think you basically said what I was dancing around to some extent, is that these dots are normal. I believe that too. And yeah, I don't know. I always get nervous that then I'm gonna get yelled at by someone. But I think it's I think it's completely true. And so, yeah, maybe the best place to go from here is so you have had this traumatic childhood and kind of had to deal with these things that in an ideal world you wouldn't have had to deal with, although they did make you who you are, so that's part of the process. But that led you to to this work that you're doing and moving towards. I know that we've had many convers it feels like we've had a lot of conversations, even though it's been like one and like a quarter, but just about working in the death space and being a death becoming a death doula and how to do that, and all these really, really amazing things. And I think we've bonded over this kind of approach to these topics and these jobs and whatnot, and doing it in a way that is authentic and true and really helped people. And so I think it'd be really interesting to hear you've you went through this and not saying that it didn't spoke to how hard it was on you and you had these really these difficult times, but you're in a place now that it's uh given you this sense of purpose to help in this space. You work with this really amazing organization volunteering. And so maybe you can you don't have to say who they are, but maybe just speaking to the work that you're doing and the work that you're moving towards. I think both of us are like

A Different Lens On Survival

SPEAKER_01 34:45

you are way more equipped and skilled and all the right things to do this work than I am. But I think both of us are like trying to find art space in this world of death care and doing it in a I don't know, noble sounds like a really dumb word. I need your th I need the thesaurus right now. That's what I need. That's really what I need right now. But yeah, just doing it in a way that feels authentic and right and true to the people we're working with.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yes. So I do volunteer work for an organization which is based in the Seattle, Washington area. And if folks are interested in learning more, maybe Zach, you and I can talk about connections that could be made or what information I'm able to share.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

But essentially, after I think let me just take a breath.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah. Maybe we do a little, maybe we need to do a mid-call, or not mid, we're close to the end, but a little meditation, a couple deep breaths.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Yeah. Yeah. After my childhood and early adulthood, kind of struggling with some of the trauma that I experienced, I moved back to the Seattle area, which always felt like home to me. So even though I don't feel like I have a real, real solid definition of home, the state of Washington has always been my favorite place to be. And I came back to Seattle um when one of my sisters had a baby and made me an auntie for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yay.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah, so that was 10 years ago now. So my nephew is 10 now. The sort of next part of the story in my journey into death care is that um when my nephew and his let's see, my when my nephew was maybe three, he had a little sister by then, she was one. When they were that age, my brother-in-law who was is their father, he died by suicide. Um he was very young, um, in his early twenties. And it was an absolute crisis for the family. And my sister just needed me to help her with things that we just didn't expect to have to do. Um at that age. Like how who do we call? How do we find a place for a memorial service or a funeral home? Who do I call first? How do I talk to the kids about this? That was the biggest question. And like I said, they were so little, three in one. And I at that point in time, my formal education had been in psychology, which is why I think she reached out to me, in addition to me just being her oldest sister.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

I think knowing that I studied psychology for a number of years, um had her calling me. So I just went to the bookstore and looked at all the looked for any book that could help children process death. Um and there wasn't, as you might guess, Zach, there's not a lot of books on the shelf about this at the bookstore. But I found a couple of books that I thought were were just beautifully done. Um and I bought them and sent them to her. And over the years, she like continued to reach out and just ask me for advice or keep me updated on some of the things that the kids were saying about their dad. And and that grief process is just ongoing. And just being there for her and my nephew and my niece, that really was just the most, I think, pivotal experience in in my past to doing community deaf care. I had never felt like more fulfilled than I did when I was just helping someone navigate these really hard conversations about this really mysterious stage of life. And so then I just started to pursue how can I show up in this way for anyone who needs me. And so that's how I essentially found the nonprofit that I volunteer for. And I'm you say that I'm more equipped than you are not. You are you might surprise yourself someday, but in this work, one of the things that I do is I get the honor and the privilege of being present for people who are at they're at the point where they are actively dying. And they don't really have a lot of folks to support them.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

And so I just get to be the one who sits with them.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Which is so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

It is, yeah. I know we don't have a lot of time to talk. But some of my most precious memories have been just of sitting with people maybe the day before they die or two days before, and they never knew me before that I get to be the one there helping them get up and out of the bed or reading to them. And it's when I say that that's what I do, does that sound like something you need a lot of training for? It is the kind of showing

Community Death Care And Sitting Vigil

SPEAKER_00 41:20

up that you do. Yeah, I imagine, if you were in in a position where there was someone who was near the end of their life in this form and they just wanted someone to read to them that you might volunteer to just do that. So I say that to just let people know that dust work is not something to be intimidated by. If someone you were really close to was going through this, you would intuitively probably know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah. And I think that was a great way to phrase it too, is it's it's work that anybody can do. It's just showing up for other people. But I still find it amazing that everything that you've been through, it's still something that you you find this calling, you see this calling. We see all the really horrible stuff on the news and everything that's going everything that's wrong and everything that's bad, and I'm not saying that things aren't bad, things aren't wrong. But it's stuff like people going through really hard things and then still showing up for other people. That's that's the beautiful thing about humans, and I I think that's the thing that we don't hear about as much. And not saying that you're not an amazing person and not special, but there's other people that do it too. It's not like this is the only instance of it ever. And so I just I don't know, it's heartwarming to hear someone who is doing this.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

I feel bad about all the people that I get to work with. Yeah, it's just really uh miraculous. Like, how do any of us have the energy and the heart space to do any kind of work? And I just see humans pulling through for each other all the time. And when I say anybody can do this, that's not to say that it doesn't take skill that it totally takes. And when I say that you could do this, I just mean like you have demonstrated the capacity to really listen to like really hear people and really see people in their wherever they're at on their journey, in their relationship with death. And that that's proof enough to me that you could do this if you wanted to, or if you ever need to someday.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

This is not probably the right term for this, but I in some ways I feel like we're playing like death work chicken. And it's no, you would be good at it. You'd and it's we're just trying to we're just trying to push the other one to make the full leap into just doing this all the time, but the other one's. Kind of, I don't know, like maybe you should do it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

It feels like it's kind of like back and forth game that we play a little bit, but yeah, it's funny because we are already doing we are already both we're in it community network, yeah, and we're gonna keep doing it, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Yeah, yeah. I don't I even though I guess we were talking about earlier where uh we're coming to this idea of I don't know, and that's okay, and that could be the end of this whole project in a way, but not really. I don't see anything that's gonna make me not want to do this. And I love that I get to have many deep conversations with people. And sometimes it's really hard, difficult conversations. And sometimes we're just talking about philosophy and like galaxies and stars and feeling small and all this stuff, but it's wonderful to be able to do this. And yeah, I don't know what would stop me from doing this because it is so incredibly rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I really am glad that you feel that way. Um I want you to keep this project up. Um, even though you might be settling on just getting comfortable with not knowing what happens when we die.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

It seems like you're also learning like you're really starting to see what you do know. Yeah, that's probably not the best way to but what you do know is just how rich these conversations are. When we talk about it, when we dream out loud about what might happen, or just wonder out loud what might happen, what connections come from that and how rich our conversations are. Like you said it earlier, it's it feels like we've had so many conversations when really it's been like two at this point.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

But because we're talking about stuff that we don't really get to talk about anywhere else, it's different. It feels different.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Yeah, it's deeply connecting for sure. Yeah, I feel like I know you better than some of my friends that I've known for 10 years. Because it's just we have we've had very deep, meaningful conversations. I do have one last question for you. This is how I've started wrapping up every call, trying to ask everybody a similar question like I do at the beginning. And so, what's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Oh, you would think I'd have an answer ready for this question, and I just don't.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I would not expect you to. This is a hard question.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

I learned a couple of years ago that I shouldn't really limit my thinking around what should happen in the future for me. Like I spent so many years thinking, I want this, I need this to happen next for me. This is what I'm working toward. I need to get married and have kids and then you'll be happy, and then everything will be great.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

And I had all these plans to do these things because I really wanted them to happen before I died. And then when everything fell apart over and over again, like after so many times of those plans just not coming together, yeah, I had beautiful relationships just coming to me out of nowhere. I had opportunities that I never would have dreamed to, like, even I would have never said 10 years ago, I really hope someday I'm volunteering as a healthcare organization, having conversations with you know, somebody like Zach, or I really hope that someday I'm living in Oregon with my wonderful partner and my dog. Those are just not things that I really try to specify too much. But like before I I do daydream a lot still about maybe just having up in the mountains next to a river with with my partner and my dog in a little garden. Like I would really if I ever get to do that someday, I will just be beside myself. That would be really cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Will you let me know if there's like an adjacent plot of land? Well, we don't have to be like we both can have 10 acres and we'll have some distance, but if there's a spot next to that where I can also have those same things, I would be very happy.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Wow, yeah. If I had 10 acres, you could be my neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Totally. That's the minimum people need distance from me. It's yeah, you don't want me too close. Um I never leave my house, so no one would ever know. But the one thing that I did want to mention, I think a lot about if I got everything that I wanted in my life, and I'm not talking about, oh, not necessarily like things. Not oh, if I got this car, then I'd be happy. Like my life, it's like life events. And if things went the direction that I wanted them to, I would be incredibly unhappy because I did not actually know what I wanted. It's like you just want things to work in some capacity because it's familiar. But you don't realize what it's like in that situation until you get out of it. And then it's, oh, I was miserable and I didn't see that, or I was sad in this situation, or this, or whatever. And I think it's to your point of when it's always this search for more, and when I get to this place, when I get this, when I get married, when I have kids, when I have this it's all that stuff that it just sets this expectation that happiness or whatever you want to call it is a destination to get to. And at least in my experience, that has not been the case. It's I still feel like I don't really feel like happiness is my goal in life really anymore. It's just contentment, which when I tell people that, it's oh, you've given up on life. That's so sad. And I'm like, no, I'm actually pretty good with it. But it's I do see it as a place still, but it's not a place to get to. It's just like a place of being. And now I'm getting way too and meditation-y, but um, yeah, it's that's what came up for me when you mentioned that of yeah, if I got all these things that I wanted, if I had these things work out, I would be a miserable person. I would not be happy with my life. So there is some beauty in the shit that happens to us and the people that we become because of it. Maybe that's a bumper sticker. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah, I think

What We Still Want From Life

SPEAKER_00 50:40

that there's a lot of uncertainty about what happens after we die, and I'm fine with that, happy with that. There's a lot of uncertainty about what's gonna happen between now and when I actually die, too, and I'm okay with that. I think it's just more important to me to just be open to what good can come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Surrender to the unknown.

unknown 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah.

unknown 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

I want to say thank you so much for being willing to do this. The one thing that I want to note is very often I talk to people, and I'm always, I can't believe you're telling me the story. I can't believe you're talking to a stranger and sharing these things. And what I get most often from that is it's easier to talk to a stranger because there's no fear of judgment. There's no, I don't know you, so I'm not really worried about it. And so the thing that I want to say is I think it's incredibly amazing that you are willing to share what you're willing to share, knowing that we know each other. And that and not that we even know each other that well, which might even make it worse. I think it's amazing that you were willing to be so vulnerable, willing to share. And I just want to like applaud you and send so much gratitude your way because that is not an easy thing to do. And so I'm just incredibly grateful to you.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

I'm grateful to you too, Zach. I appreciate you giving me the time to share my story. And yeah, I appreciate everything you're doing, and I look forward to many more conversations.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, forcing each other further and further into the death work. It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

It'll happen.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Thank you so much. I usually say, let's stay in touch. We will definitely stay in touch. I feel like we're gonna do we're gonna have to do another Bardo T session soon and talk some more. But yeah, thank you so much. And I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Thank you. You too.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Bye. Bye. Most of us will never sit with a stranger while they're dying. Most of us will never even be in the room. And yet here is someone who sought that out, who keeps showing up for it because of everything they lived through long before they ever walked into that room for the first time. I think about that a lot after calls like this one. How the hardest things don't always just leave a mark. Sometimes they leave a direction.

Closing Reflections And Ways To Engage

SPEAKER_01 53:00

And underneath all of it, the childhood, the loss, the work, what I really loved most was how settled they are with not knowing. Like they found something solid in uncertainty that most of us are still running from. I'm starting to close in on the hundredth anonymous call, probably within the next two or three months. That's a little over a year of sitting down with strangers and asking them about the thing that very few people want to talk about. Some days that feels completely normal. Other days I look at it and I have no idea how we got here. I'll see you next week. When we die talks exist because people have stories worth telling. And most of them never get told in a way that lasts. Momostheny is my attempt to do something about that. It actually started with a guest from the show, and after his interview, he told me how much it meant to have something he could share with the people in his life. So he didn't have to keep repeating himself, and so nothing got lost over time. I couldn't stop thinking about how many people have a version of that. Honestly, all of us do. All of us have a life worth capturing, and people who love us and would give anything to hear told. Demostheny is a guided conversation with me where we capture someone's life in their own words, where they come from, what made them who they are, and the stories they want people they love to know. The recording is yours, private, personal, something you can share with anyone you want. If someone came to mind just now, even if it was yourself, that's probably worth paying attention to. You can learn more at Namasony.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.