Anonymous #43 — Is Being Forgotten Worse Than Dying?

This week's caller calls themself a radical death advocate. Not because they think dying is good, but because they see it as a part of the life cycle we're better off accepting than fighting. They're mostly at peace with the first death, the physical one. It's the second death, the one where your name stops being spoken, that they're still working through.

From there the conversation moves through an ofrenda they keep in their home for a close friend they lost suddenly last year, and what it means for that friend to become part of the conversation every time someone new comes over. They talk about Day of the Dead, growing up between two countries, and a choice to focus on the decades someone lived rather than the last week of their life. They end on where they'd go first if they could see more of the world.

In this conversation:

• Being a radical death advocate, and choosing to accept dying rather than treat it as the enemy
• The idea of two deaths: the death of the body, and the last time anyone says your name
• Building and keeping an ofrenda, and what it means to talk about someone you've lost every time a friend visits
• Reframing grief around a lifetime lived, instead of the final days of it
• Wanting to see more of the world, starting with the Caucasus

Book recommendation: Unwind by Neal Shusterman

All Anonymous Book Recommendations: View the full list

Video Episode: If you'd like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

About When We Die Talks: When We Die Talks is a podcast built around anonymous conversations about death, loss, and how contemplating mortality shapes the way we live. If you’re new here, start with the Episode Guide. It’s designed to help you find conversations that match where you’re at—curiosity, grief, hesitation, or openness.

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Want to share your thoughts? Leave a voicemail at 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Messages may be featured in a future episode. If you’d like to have a full conversation, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at whenwedietalks.com.

Transcript

The Two Deaths We Fear

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There's two deaths. There's the death of your body, and then the last time anyone ever says your name. The second death is really the thing that I think is scarier than the first death. The idea that you will one day be forgotten is really, I think, the core of a lot of people's fear of death is that you will one day not only disappear physically from the earth, but also disappear from the zeitgeist of your friends and family.

Show Setup And The Core Question

SPEAKER_03 0:31

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here.

Radical Death Advocacy And Acceptance

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. This week's caller calls themselves a radical death advocate. Death is inevitable, and they say being afraid of something you can't stop is what actually ruins people's lives. Sometimes emotionally, sometimes physically. They spent their early childhood in Canada, then Texas, but so much of this call is shaped by their Mexican heritage. We talk about the idea of a second death, the point when nobody living remembers who you were. That's what really scares our caller. And that's the place, even tangentially, where this whole call lives. We talk about that idea in theory, but also in practice. They lost a close friend suddenly a little less than a year ago. Someone they were close to, someone they still remember in their community altar. But then we get into deathbed regret. The idea that no matter how you live, some regret is unavoidable. So the real question isn't how to avoid it, it's how to live anyway. It's a call about loss, but in a warm kind of way. About how it's possible to grieve someone in a way that allows you and others to stay connected to them. Let's get into the call. I hope you enjoy. Hey, how's it going? It's going good. How about yourself? Not too bad. Not too bad. It's it's cooled off here, so I'm a little bit happier than I was a couple days ago. But yeah, things are good.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

That's good.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Yeah. Yeah. I want to say thank you right off the bat for being willing to do this, being interested in doing this. It sounds like you're excited to do this. So thank you so much for that. Where I like to start at least, and maybe just briefly, because we'll get into a lot more detail of all these things, but this is a topic that a lot of people don't like to talk about. People tend to avoid it. And so I'm curious why you wanted to have this conversation and talk to a stranger about death for approximately an hour.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Well, like I said, it's a very special subject to me. I think dying is it's inevitable. Everyone is going to do it. And spoiler alert being Yeah. But I think being wary to talk about and being actively afraid of something that is going to happen and you can't stop it is just something that makes your life worse. I would consider myself radical death advocate. Not in the way that like I think it's a good thing necessarily, but in the way of this is a part of the life cycle that we need to accept. Yeah, we don't need to make the enemy out of it. Yeah. And I think there's also been like people will harm themselves trying to escape the inevitability of it and make their lives worse, like ruminating and trying to avoid it rather than just living their lives.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, totally. I usually don't comment, although now I've been saying that more and more, and then I do comment. And I think part of it is when you start looking at death not necessarily as the enemy, it changes your perspective on life. And so even just like you're saying harming yourself, that could be very easily just pigeonholed into like physical harm or something. It could be really a very, I don't want to say a small thing, but it can be that could be taken in a way that is not really the full breadth of it. Like, yeah, it could just be living a life that you didn't mean to live, but you did it because you didn't actually consider the fact that I think we all know we're gonna die, but not everybody acts like they know that they're gonna die. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I think that's that was at least my way of uh I don't know. I didn't want to I'm not trying to explain what you said, but I yeah, just hearing that causing harm I think is much, much bigger than just something like, oh yeah, physical. It's so much bigger than that.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, you're causing you you hit you hit the nail on the head. It's causing harm to your quality of life, it's causing psychological harm. There is some aspects of harm to one's body trying to the things that people will do to try to escape like aging and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yep. Yeah, I'm excited to dive into all this because I feel like this is I don't know. I get told very often that I'm quote unquote too young to be thinking about death, which is a very weird thing to say. I'm 38, which also I'm not saying I'm old by any means, but it also feels like is when is when do I get the permission slip? When do I get the letter in the mail that says, okay, now you can officially start talking about death. But

Caller Background And Favorite Book

SPEAKER_03 5:46

I'm gonna cut us off there for a second because I want to get to know you a little bit. We're gonna keep the anonymity for sure. We'll get back into all this stuff. I am excited because I think we're gonna go some really interesting ways, maybe some different ways than uh recent calls have gone. So to get to know you, I like to ask a couple questions. The state that you live in now, and then the state that you grew up in. And then the second one is what's your favorite book and why?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Okay, yeah. So I grew up in Ontario, Canada, actually.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yeah, but I moved to Texas when I was about like 13 or 14.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

So I and that's such a formative, like I feel like you're still growing up.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, like where I grew up is both Ontario and Texas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, I've had a couple international callers. I guess I've maybe you might there might be one other person that's called in that grew up in Canada, lives in the United States now. But so we're gonna give a little bit of a an international flair with this one. I like that. Okay, sorry. Yeah, keep on jumping in a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

No, you're good. Yeah, I personally like I told my friends that I was gonna be doing this. I don't, I'm not too concerned about. I do understand keeping up with consistency with regards to the anonymity, but I'm not personally not too afraid of it. Cool, yeah. Yeah, so I live in Austin right now. Okay, cool. And I think moving and like having that huge life change moving to a different country was something that helped get me on track to the way that I think about death now because of death as like a transitional phase.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Yeah, yeah. See, my questions do work. There is a reason I asked this stuff. And then the other one is favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

I haven't read like a novel in a hot minute, unfortunately, but I did really like when I was a teenager, I read the unwound series, okay, which is like a dystopian series about a world where misfit children get sent to a facility to essentially the way that they present it is that the body is a shell, a physical shell that is stripped away. They're basically stripping bad kids for parts. Um they present it in a way of like they're taking their physical body apart and leaving their soul intact. Well, kind of deal.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

That's wild.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, it was really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

And feels like it fits in right, maybe doesn't. We'll see where we go with this conversation, but it does feel like it fits in with this conversation to some extent of are you your body? Are you your soul? What are those components? So that yeah, that sounds interesting. Thank you for adding that to the mix. And now I I can already feel like there's been so many moments already where we just want to dive into the heart of the conversation.

What Happens After Death?

SPEAKER_03 8:46

So we can do that now and start with what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_02 8:50

I was thinking about this before our phone call. I think I'm a little agnostic on it because I'm willing to accept that is just something that is unknowable to us, at least right now.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

And I think trying to have a solid idea of I know what's gonna happen when I die, is not an escapism necessarily, but I think that it is important to when talking about and trying to like get over that fear of death that you like part of that is accepting that you don't really know.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Yeah, accepting the unknown.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I yeah, I personally have operated on the idea of a soul. Of I I believe in ghosts, I've had paranormal experiences.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

This is gonna be a fun call. We're gonna get into some fun stuff here.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

I'm so glad. But yeah, I also think that like the idea of the soul and the spirit sort of carries on. Have

Day Of The Dead And Remembering

SPEAKER_02 9:59

you you've heard the idea before, right? Of there's two deaths. There's the death of your body, and then the last time anyone ever says your name.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah, very uh I don't know if it's attributed to well, Day of the Dead. I feel like that's the context I regularly hear that kind of in. I know it's not necessarily exclusive to it, but I don't know if that's necessarily the origin of that. But yeah, definitely have heard of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah, I'm I'm Mexican, so I do celebrate Day of the Dead, and that is like a huge thing of it. Is like I I live at a cooperative.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

I'm like very close friends with all my neighbors and stuff, and we do a big group thing for Day of the Dead each year, and that's something where it's like I am inviting all of these people to, regardless of if they actually believe in the spirituality of it, yeah, I am inviting all of these people to continue to allow basically their loved ones' spirit to continue on as a sort of life, that is like an afterlife. And the idea of feeling someone there with you after they're gone, regardless again, if you believe in an afterlife or ghosts, or if you're just completely non-spiritual and you don't you think that when we die, you just go in the dirt and nothing happens. There's still you can still feel that person's presence in your heart.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Yeah, it's a connection to your ancestry in one way or another. Yeah. I did derail us by bringing up Day of the Dead, because I feel like you were about to say something about the two deaths. I don't know if there was a thread to go there that you still wanted to talk about, or if you wanted me to ask questions from there, but I realize I derailed us there for a second.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

No, you're good. It is related. Like the the second death is really the thing that I think is scarier than the first death. The idea that you will one day be forgotten is really I think the core of a lot of people's fear of death is that you will one day not only disappear physically from the earth, but also disappear from the zeitgeist of your friends and family.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

And I think that it's important to like honor people who've passed because I think that it's important to honor the loved ones, like loved ones who've passed and prevent that second death because if someone dies and is completely forgotten immediately, or if they die and are forgotten by history because they don't have an extended network or anything like that, I personally find like spiritual significance to their continued impact on the world after they're gone and the continued like speaking of their name and remembering of who they were. And so, to me personally, when someone stops being spoken about or remembered, that is like the truest actual death. And I think that everyone deserves to continue to have a place in this world.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah.

The Trap Of Chasing Immortality

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Can I ask you maybe a really weird question off that that just popped in my brain and something that I've thought about? Because I think this is a really interesting idea. And I always use this example, I don't know why, but Shakespeare. We remember Shakespeare through the work, but that's not necessarily for this might not be a great comparison, but because art's a little bit different than like being an accountant. But that's like what we know about Shakespeare, the work that he created. That is different than the person he was, although you put a part of yourself in your art and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

But do you think that one's going, I remember Shakespeare, he was a great guy.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Yeah. And I think my question off of that is I think my fear a little bit with this thought process is that it emboldens that kind of thought of the way that I last forever is I create something so I'm never forgotten. And I think in a lot of ways, that's part of the issue of the world right now is you have a lot of these dudes who can't accept their death, right? And so it's, I want to create an empire that lasts forever so I'm never forgotten. I really feel like that's a lot of what we're seeing, is just I can't comprehend not being important. So I don't know exactly what the question is there, but that's something that came up. And I usually don't actually feel bad kind of pushing back a little bit there. I usually I'm like, this is about the collar, but I'm curious about your thoughts around that of because I think it I think those two things are different, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Yeah, actually I actually do appreciate the pushback because it does open up a very interesting conversation. I I think that the second death is probably also is definitely also something that we need to get over and accept. Yeah. That like who you were as a friend, who you were as a mother, father, brother, sister, whatever, will have to eventually be forgotten. That death is also inevitable. Yeah. And I think that is something that like I said, I've I'm pretty cool with the first death. I do still have some qualms with the second death.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Yeah. And that makes you one and a half steps further than me.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Uh I mean, it's natural. I almost fear all like any phobia or like being scared of getting hurt, could be being scared of the unknown, etc. All of it stems from a fear of dying.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Physically. Because we are just like naturally and instinctually driven to live as creatures. I don't think that it's shameful to be afraid of physically dying. Yeah. And it's the it's like thinking about the vastness of the universe type of stuff. Where it's like the idea that someday you will simply not even exist in the minds of other people. Like the idea of there being nothing at some point, even in regards to like speaking your name.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

And things like that, the eternity and the finality of it is something that is just like provably psychologically extremely difficult for people to deal with.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah. Yeah. Uh and almost in some ways impossible to comprehend. Not existing is not something the one thing that we know and only know for certain is like existing. We know that and I guess there might be an argument like there's maybe an argument there of this is a simulation, but okay, that's still existing in a simulation. I think it's yeah, this is all we're aware of. And so it's yeah, it's just wrapping your brain around the impossible or trying to, and then it's I can't wrap my brain around that, so it must be scary then.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah. Yeah. Like even the idea of the second death is a little bit of a cope to avoid, or maybe not necessarily avoid, but to make yourself feel a little better about the fact that someday you will just not exist at all.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

And I think that's okay. I think having to have to like have these thoughts about what happens when we like where do we go after we die? Is there a soul? Is there a heaven? Da-da-da. I think having those things, people will dog on it. I I guess maybe it kind of I could come across to some people like I was dogging on it earlier. But I'm I think that we need that. I think people need to need something to believe in after death if it makes them feel more comfortable with something that, like I said, is completely inevitable and has to happen at some point, just so long as it doesn't lead you to a path of again that like death avoidance harm.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Autopilot happen.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Yeah.

unknown 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

And I think probably to some extent it's a balancing act, right?

Deathbed Regret And Living Intentionally

SPEAKER_03 18:07

You can't live every day. There's a couple things here, but you can't live every day like it's your last. It's just impossible to live from that place every single day.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Because if this was my last exhausting, it's mentally exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

And the thing is, if this was my last day, like after we're done with this call, because I'd still be doing this call, I'm saying that right now, but after this call, I'm like, okay, let's cash out the bank and let's go fly somewhere or let's do something. But you can't do that every day because there is still an understanding that there's probably a good likelihood that I'll be here tomorrow. And so, yeah, that's the dance of it, is you can't just say, well, I know I'm gonna die and kind of obsessively live from that state. And whether that's out of fear or whatever it is, but you also can't live on the other side, like we're saying, because then it turns into autopilot and you wake up, you hear all these stories about the people on their deathbed having these regrets.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

And I think that also, like with regards to deathbed regrets, it's something where it's like that is unfortunately also inevitable. You I'm gonna, I would love to go to space someday. That's not gonna happen. And when I die, I'll be sad.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Not not with that mentality. Maybe we can get maybe we can get you into space after this episode airs or something. I don't know. I have no power over anything, but maybe it's I don't know. You can go up in one of those, they did that like air balloon thing. It's not an air balloon. You can just go up in one of those things, like five minutes up in space. Yeah, come on. I believe in you.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

I would love to go to space. Yeah. If I get the chance, I will take it. But it's pretty unlikely that I will. And I'm human, I've been mean, I've been, I've made stupid decisions, yeah, I've spent my money in dumb ways, and I know that like when you know that you're going to die, I think that like rush of regret comes from the fact that there's nothing I can do to overwrite those things and continue to distract myself from them.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

And not really 100% sure where I was going with this, but like it's I think you shouldn't live your life in avoidance of the deathbed regret because you're going to have them. You made mistakes, you'll think about them.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

And yeah, they're just gonna be if you kinda have to go. I was gonna say, if you do the avoidance, you're just gonna go. Your regrets are just gonna maybe not exactly, but they're just gonna be the opposite of what the deathbed regrets that you're hearing are. It's oh, I work too much. Okay, my regret was that I lived a really hard life because I couldn't pay my bills or something. I don't know. I don't know. When you're when you go like our natural increment inclination as humans, it seems, is whether it's like you're psychoanalyzing yourself or like a situation, whatever it is, it's oh, if it's bad, the best thing to do is to go completely 180. That's gonna fix it. Yeah, because this was not good. So the exact opposite has to be the right answer. And I think again to what we already said, it really is a balance. You know, it's it actually lives somewhere in between those things. But it's like we have to ping pong off the extremes first before we can like actually start to settle into oh, maybe it's I treat myself, but I'm not spending all my money because then I don't know where I'm gonna how I'm gonna pay for food tomorrow. Or some I don't know. It's a bad example, but you get what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah. If you regret working all the time, then and if you in your life regret working all the time and you're like, uh screw it, I'm gonna live fast. Die young, then you're gonna regret living past and dying young. If you live your life very selfishly and one day go, I'm I'm a jerk, I'm gonna go on like a missionary trip or whatever and live for other people and do all this stuff, then you're gonna regret dedicating the entirety of your life to other people. That also doesn't mean that you shouldn't do those things if you feel like they're the right thing to do, because you should live your life in the balance that works for you at the time and adjust as you go.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

And accept that you're gonna look back at your 20s or whatever and be like, dang, I was so dumb. I spent only money stupid, da-da-da-da, and it's okay. But you lived and you had fun, and it was what was right for you at the time.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Or, oh, I regret saying this to this person, I regret ruining this relationship with this person. That's just people are gonna come and go out of your life. You're gonna make mistakes that are gonna hurt people, and you should be accountable for them, but you shouldn't beat yourself up too much about it and be like, I'm a bad person, or you know, you're always going to regret something, so why live avoiding regret and instead just live in a way that is satisfying to you? Because you're never gonna get it 100% right. No one ever will.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Yeah, it's not how things work. I do feel like I want to maybe change directions just slightly. Like

Losing A Friend Suddenly

SPEAKER_03 23:33

I'm loving this part of the conversation, but I'm also like, if we don't talk about you said you've had paranormal experiences, if we don't talk about that, or in your application, if you're up for it, we don't have to, but you mentioned that you had a friend of yours pass very suddenly recently. And so I love this type of conversation because it is part of the mission of this project is to wake people up a little bit, realize what death avoidance, not accepting your mortality, how it affects how you you live your life. Like it really life and death are so hand in hand. But I want to know a little bit more about you and like your story. I think that's what this project has become. And so like I would love to hear about some of these experiences in your life and how those, because it seems like you've had things in your life that have, and I guess we all do, that's a very dumb statement, but that have changed how you've thought about death and how you've gotten to where you are now.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

No, yeah. I think we were reaching a conclusion. Critical mass.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Maybe. Uh yeah, no, yeah. Well, do you want to go paranormal or do you want to go personal experiences first?

SPEAKER_03 24:50

I'd say dealer's choice, whatever you want to go. I think I'm actually the dealer though, so that that backfired. But yeah, wherever you want to go. I always say that you're the captain. I'm just like helping steer the ship a little bit. So I think it's this is about you. This is about what you want to talk about, sharing your story, sharing your experiences. So I would say whatever feels, and this feels like a cliche woo-woo statement, but whatever feels most alive for you right now.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

For sure. I love the woo-woo.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

So perfect, perfect.

Ofrendas And Ritualized Memory

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I think the first thought I had was about because we were talking about also like Day of the Dead and stuff. Yeah. My friend who passed away last year, actually passed away pretty shortly before the Day of the Dead.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

I think it was like the second or so week of October.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Okay, so very close.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Um, and his part of the offrenda is still he was he lived with us at the co-op.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

And can I stop you one second? I don't want this to be dumb, but maybe for and I don't want it to be like I know what it is, but maybe for the audience, just in case, will you talk about what an ofrenda is real quick? It doesn't have to be super elaborate, but maybe just in case that's something that people don't know. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it's a it's such a beautiful, I guess, practice or I don't know, whatever the right phrasing is there, but maybe and just in case some people don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

For sure. Yeah, I love to talk about it. I love to teach people about this. The day of the dead is we create offrandas, which are basically altar pieces to a deceased loved one. It usually includes pictures of them. It might include like some of their like personal affects sometimes. The it and it'll have a lot of flowers. We like to do like mums and stuff and candles, and then but we would do because we also have some members of our community that celebrate like All Saints Day, which is on the same day and very similar practice. So I would have those who we would all work together to create this big altar with the flowers and the candles and the pictures of just everybody that all together that we're remembering that day. And so there's a section that's dedicated to it's got this person's pictures on it, and then this section is like this person's pictures, and da-da-da. And then we take food and drink and Austin, Texas, other embodiments. A lot of wine and alcohol was involved. Tequila is like pretty typical for wine, is more typical for All Saints Day, and then tequila is more typical for the day of the dead, but we take these foods and embodiments and stuff like that and put them in front of the altar. And the idea is that we sit around until sundown and remember these people, we talk about them, share stories about them, and then the idea is that while we are doing that, the people on the offrenda are summoned, like their spirits are summoned back, and they take metaphorically eat the food and take part, and then after sundown, then we get to eat it, and it's like we're having a meal with them.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

That's awesome. Thank you for explaining that. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I was like, this feels like it's a very powerful thing, and so I felt like it just in case people weren't aware. But anyway, so you're saying that the of the of that you had for your friend is still up, and I think that's where I cut you off. Yeah. So maybe continue from there.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah, no, you're good. I think it is important to know what we do and why. Yeah, yeah, the pieces of his of in our common space, and it's a nice little like constant reminder of he was somebody that was in our lives that impacted us, and he was a very generous person. He was really funny. He started bad movie nights, and every Friday we would we had a whole list of movies that we wanted to watch, and every Friday we would go over to his apartment and bang out like sometimes three or four movies in a night. Nice and just smoke and drink and laugh. That sounds pretty awesome. It was badass. This guy was awesome. He was part of like local, he was part of so many like local movements and stuff. He was part of the Yellow Bike Project, which is a charity organization that like takes like broken bikes and fixes them and then gives them out to members of the community that like need them. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and then he would do these yearly trips to like him and a big group of people would do these big bike rides to Mexico every year. Oh, cool. Yeah, and so it was just like he had touched so many people when he passed away. Day of we were on it, and we set up a big celebration of life for him at our cooperative, and there was people, there was his parents were there, people from Yellow Bike were there, people from the Mexican like bike ride journey group were there, people from I feel like there were people even from organizations that I didn't know that he, like charity organizations that I didn't even know he was a part of. It's amazing. Yeah, he was just a great guy. I could not find a single picture of him when we were going through a bunch of pictures of him to put on the offerenda and also just have around. I could not find a single picture of him where he wasn't just like grinning ear to ear. He was such a smiley, happy guy and always wanted to make people feel welcome. It hurts to know that he's not here anymore. Yeah. And that I can't smile and laugh with him anymore. But I there's it feels like when we go to the commons and his pictures are there and we smoke and drink and eat and laugh, it feels like he is still there smoking, drinking, laughing with us because his energy is still there with the pictures.

SPEAKER_04 31:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

And the community Yeah, like it the tie like the interpersonal ties that people have in the community are in part shaped by him. And so through like our friendships with each other, there is still him, you know? And I love I go out, I meet new people, I bring them to my house and bring them to parties here and stuff. And it warms my heart to be able to, because his pictures are still there and stuff, and like little there's little notes and stuff for him to be able to like bring people over and be like, this is my friend, this is and tell stories about him, and you can s just see in these like smiley pictures of him that like it's it adds, you know, adds to like when I'm talking about him, you can see that personality that I'm describing.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Yeah, that's such a beautiful way. You

Grief Talks That Keep Them Here

SPEAKER_03 32:41

know, I I'm very fortunate. I have the people that I've lost are basically three of my grandparents, and so I'm not necessarily the most well-versed in grief, although I think maybe this was something that we like very loosely touched on earlier in the call. But the fact of the matter is like death is happening all the time, and I don't mean like the capital D death. It's like breakups, losing jobs, so many things are death, and we have grief around those things. So I I did want to preface it with it. Like I'm not the most well-versed in grief, but that just seems like such a beautiful way to grieve a person because what I hear so often is the fear from external from other people is oh, they lost someone, they're probably really sad, and I don't want to make them sadder. So I'm just not gonna talk about it. And I know that there's also grief is complex and different for everybody, and timelines are different and relationships are different. But the one thing that I do feel I hear a lot is I just wish someone would ask me about my favorite memory of my dad or like my sister or whoever. And it sounds like you basically have this like mechanism. It's weird, I don't know if I should call the afriend a mechanism, but you have this thing that actually starts conversation and allows, like, yeah, let me tell you about this person, let me share these stories, let me like look at his face. He's so happy. Like, you can tell, and I'm sure you can tell by my stories, how passionate I am, like what this person meant. And so I feel like that's such a beautiful way to remember and to grieve someone. And I don't want to say allow for permission, but just allow for that conversation. Because that's the shitty thing, is it's it almost seems like we need a collective grieving class. And the problem is the people, and I'm not putting the responsibility on grievers to do this, but it's almost it's like the grievers are the ones who have to show everybody else how to grieve. But that's just like such a shitty position to be like, oh yeah, you're going through a tough time, but also teach other people how to deal with you. That's not how it should work and how we want it to work. But this seems like a really beautiful way to, yeah, just to remember someone and to offer conversation about someone.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah. And I think like you like grieving is different for every for everybody. And I'm sure there are people out there who want to shut down and just not talk about the person that recently passed. Yeah. And that's up to them. I think I think there is no there is people say it a lot, there is no right way to grieve. There's definitely healthy versus unhealthy ways to grieve, but there's no correct way to grieve. And so if someone is just, I don't want to talk about it, that's fine and that's on them. But I think that I so I when I grew up growing up, my dad death has always just been like a conversation in my family my whole life. Yeah. Not as a not as a like scary thing, but just as a casual thing of we're all gonna die, let's talk about it. And one thing that my dad would say is that when he dies, he doesn't want a funeral, he doesn't want it to be like a sad event, he wants a celebration of life, he wants everyone to party, and I feel the same way. Yeah. Um I think that focusing on like the joys of having known that person and having had like the privilege to be almost the privilege to be able to be sad about this person, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Is like the way that I like to look at it is it's like this person is gone, I do not have them in my life anymore, but I did, and when I did, it was great. And I'm glad that they I'm glad that this person touched my life. I'm glad for everything that they've done to change it. And I want to even though the departure is sad, I this I spent so much more time being happy with them than I did, you know, death is like that. You just you die.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Death isn't you don't necessarily have uh everyone doesn't necessarily have a quick death, but like the death part of your life is so short in compared to all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

And so I feel like it doesn't do me and it doesn't do a lot of people very good to focus on that like last last week of or month of or whatever of their life, yeah, than it is to focus on all the rest of it and all the like beautiful ways that they have existed in this world and impacted it by their presence. My friend went, he was hit by a car while he was on his bike, ironically, and he was in a coma for about a week or two. And I just think that like reflecting on actually I've had I had another friend pass away who it was a similar thing where he had like a very severe injury that left him comatose for a time and then he passed. I think that focusing on that week or so of dying when this person has lived for decades before then, it doesn't really do you any favors and it doesn't really do them any favors because I don't know that again there's no wrong way really to grieve, but I just think that reframing it as a a way of why would I focus on like the absolute worst week of last week of this person's life rather than, like I said, yeah, all the decades that they lived before then.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Yeah, that they actually got to do this thing called life and you got to experience like that with them. This is such a pragmatic and maybe callous way of saying you said it much more poetically. I didn't write it down, so I can't remember exactly what you said, but it's like the only other option is that you just didn't have them in your life, right? Like exactly either you get to have all these beautiful memories, and like unfortunately, and we don't know, right? We don't know how long someone else is gonna live, we don't know how long we're gonna live, we don't know if we're gonna be the one that's getting grieved or if it's someone else, but like the options are like go full on hermit mode and go live in the forest or something and never be around other people, or you this is just that's part of life. It's gonna happen. You're gonna have to grieve other people. And I don't know if it's I was I lost a friend recently. I guess I said earlier that I didn't lose anybody, but he was someone that I met through the podcast, someone I interviewed very early on. We became friends, and I went to his celebration of life, which I love. That's like a way that we're like we've allowed ourselves to look at it that way versus it being this like very somber affair. But there was absolutely a guy that was like really frustrated and was like, I don't know why we have to call it a celebration of life. I don't like this. And it's like, well, yeah, that's also part of it too, is that every you can't make everybody happy. But I'm in agreement with you. That's what I would rather have. And my dad always talks about, I think similarly, I don't necessarily remember talking about it a ton, maybe as a kid, but my dad and I have had a bunch of conversations about death as I've gotten older. And he always talks about you guys do whatever you want to do. If you wanna have a really somber funeral, then do that. If you wanna, and it's not necessarily like putting the because I know there's an aspect of it, I don't want to talk about it. You guys figure it out, I'm putting all the responsibility. It's more like what's gonna make the grieving process easier for you. Is it having a really formalized thing or he's a big funny enough that you mentioned both earlier, not that they're rare things to mention, but he's a big wine collector. And then we this is a story for another podcast, but we used to have a tequila bar in Mexico, so tequila is a big thing, and so he has a bunch of wine and a bunch of tequila, and so I've just always imagined it's just gonna be a really good party on like drinking a lot of his booze and stuff, and but yeah, it's he understands that it's not all set for all saints today, yeah, exactly. For a very long time, but yeah, I think it's wonderful that we're I don't exactly know where I was going with this now. I feel like this has happened a couple times today to me, but just that it's beautiful that we're we can have this way of celebrating people.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, I think that because I think there is a use in having the somber affair, and that I think for some people it's a matter of just like accepting, like that's the point for a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people talk about this where like going to the funeral is the point where it sinks in that person's. That is important. Yeah, yeah. That is important to have that if it's just happy fun time, celebration of life, and I love this person. There can be a little bit of I know even now. Sometimes I'll be walking that I'll be walking down the street and I'll see someone like biking down the street that kind of looks like my friend did, and I'll like double take. And so I think there is there can be an aspect of needing that finalization of hey everybody, this guy's gone now.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Um some people need that, and I I that's fine. That's just not my bag. Yeah, I think, like I said, I think it's much more important to me personally to remember that this person was with me and that they made me happy.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Yeah, teach their own, right? Gosh, I feel like we only just scratched the surface.

Learning And Travel Wish List

SPEAKER_03 43:13

But I'm gonna I'm gonna try to wrap this up. I'm gonna ask you this last question. What's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Like I said earlier, it'd be great if I could go to space.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

I was gonna when you said that, I was like, this is gonna maybe be the answer. What's what's what's experience number two?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Experience number two is I just love learning. I want to learn as much as I can. I want to be cultured, I want to travel and meet people from other places and other perspectives and stuff, which I think where I live now is a pretty decent like it's the capital of the state and like people from all over come here. And I've met people from many different places and and walks of life, but um, I'm not meeting them in like the environment. That they grew up and like their context for their story. And so I would love to be able to see more of the world. And I just love I love people. I love humanity as a concept. And I want to see as much of it as I can.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

I love that. I'm going to ask one more there. So say you we get off this call and you're like, I am going to just cash out my bank account and I'm going to live like there's no tomorrow. If you did that, and going off of this kind of idea of learning and experiencing culture in the actual place, if that's a way of saying that, where would you book a ticket tomorrow? Like, where's the first place that you would go besides space? Heard the culture there is great though. Heard really good things about the space culture.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Oh yeah. I've been talking about a lot about wanting to go to the Caucus region. Okay. Like going to Kazakhstan or something. It seems like a beautiful place with beautiful people. Yeah. And I love mountains. Yeah. They have so many interest they have so much like interesting food culture. I'm a big foodie. I love trying like different stuff from different places. And so I think that part of that is just that's an area that I haven't really hit there.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

But also I feel like we don't get like a very much of an image at all of what that area is like. And so it's just that again, pursuit of learning about people that like I want to hit that blind spot that I have of I feel like I don't hear much about this place, so I want to go see it.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah. That's awesome. I will say definitely let me know if you end up getting out there, getting to Kazakhstan, or if you get to space, also let me know. I'd love to hear about it. Definitely stay in touch. This was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed it. I loved, I don't know, just getting into some of that stuff about how looking at death it can enhance your life so much. I would say I'm still I think I'm definitely less afraid than I was when I started this three years ago. Like it's it would be wild for me not to be. But it has definitely made me live my life more intentionally. And yeah, and it was along the lines of what we talked about. But then just hearing you talk about your friend, also shedding some more light on Day of the Dead. It's when I first launched this project, it was a voicemail line and I launched it on Day of the Dead. I was like, this seems like the right time to do it. And I just think Day of the Dead is such a cool, um, interesting way of looking at death, so much different than how we do it here in the United States. And so um actually, sorry, I'm I am wrapping up, but you didn't just hit because you said you're from Canada originally, now live in the United States, but are Mexican, you gave us all of North America in one call. Look at you go over geez, overachiever, impressive. But anyway, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. I had a blast talking with you, and let's definitely stay in touch.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Absolutely. Yeah, I like I told you before the call, I this is something that's like deep very deeply important to me. And so I was really excited to get the chance to do this. I think these are really important conversations to be having. And and I feel that Mexican culture has a very particular not fixation necessarily, because I think that has a negative connotation, but like uh a death is a very important part of the culture and like the way that we talk about it and view it and stuff is very important to us. And so I being able to bring that into it is very special. And I that's actually awesome to hear that you started this project on Day of the Dead, yeah, because it's that's like perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Yeah, thank you for shedding some light on that. Cause I don't know if we've it might have is because the problem is now there's been, like I said, 70 some calls. So it's hard to remember if there has been or has not been, but I don't know if anybody's really gone into some more of the details like you did. So thank you for doing that. And yeah, again, thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yeah, have a good rest of your day and take care.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

You too.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

All right, bye. You too.

Reflections Projects And Ways To Join

SPEAKER_03 48:27

This caller keeps a piece of their friend present in their home, not tucked away or something they have to bring up carefully. It's just there. So when someone visits, they get an easy way to say his name and tell a story about him. I hear from a lot of people who've lost someone that they want to talk about that person. They just don't feel like anyone's gonna ask. So they just hold it to themselves. And a lot of the time, the people around them are too worried to bring that person up, thinking it'll make things worse instead of better. This color has a way around all of that. The altar just does the asking for you. As for me, I'm just a broken record at this point. My focus is so strongly on the multiple big events around the project and podcast coming in the next couple of months that there's not much else to share. That's life sometimes, though. Just prepping and planning for what's coming. And it feels like these are really big events that will allow me to finally exhale a bit. To be able to look back at what I've done the last couple of years. Over a hundred hours on the phone with strangers talking about death, when three years ago I barely could think about the topic without freaking out. It's kind of wild, and I'm gonna apologize now because that 100 hours and hundred strangers is gonna be one of my big talking points as we head into year three. But again, that's just how it goes sometimes. I'll see you next week. When we die, talks exist because people have stories worth telling. And most of them never get told in a way that lasts. Mimosony is my attempt to do something about that. It actually started with a guest from the show, and after his interview, he told me how much it meant to have something he could share with the people in his life. So he didn't have to keep repeating himself, and so nothing got lost over time. I couldn't stop thinking about how many people have a version of that. Honestly, all of us do. All of us have a life worth capturing, and people who love us and would give anything to hear it told. Nemostheny is a guided conversation with me where we capture someone's life in their own words, where they come from, what made them who they are, and the stories they want people they love to know. The recording is yours, private, personal, something you can share with anyone you want. If someone came to mind just now, even if it was yourself, that's probably worth paying attention to. You can learn more at Nimosany.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of When We Die Talks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWedietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.