Anonymous #45 — How Would You Know If a Message From the Dead Was Real?

Our caller was sitting in a college class when a professor, mid-lecture, turned and looked directly at them and asked what it might have been like to be sheltered with your partner under a mantle in Pompeii, watching ash come down. The caller says every hair on their arm stood up. That was the professor's window into something he already suspected about them.

Years later, at an artist market, a stranger asked for a reading. The caller doesn't usually charge, and doesn't usually push, but something came through anyway: a message from the woman's late grandfather, gone three years, about a Salisbury steak dinner at a nursing home and a family joke he'd sworn her father to secrecy over. The woman called her father on the spot. He confirmed it, word for word.

The caller was raised in the Bible belt, got kicked out of a few churches as a kid for asking the wrong questions, and has spent years since building a belief system with room for all of it: heaven, reincarnation, nothing at all, and fifty other doors besides, none of them locking anyone out for good. These days, they're also working toward a graduate degree in forensic anthropology, with the goal of helping identify people found in mass graves so their families can finally bring them home.

In this conversation:

• Growing up a medium in the Bible belt, and what got them kicked out of church
• The professor, Pompeii, and the moment logic stopped being enough
• A grandfather's message about Salisbury steak that convinced a grieving family
• The horse spirit that's followed the caller their whole life
• Believing in "fifty doors" instead of one version of the afterlife
• Studying forensic anthropology to help identify people in mass graves

Book recommendations: The Giver by Lois Lowry and Forgotten Fire by Adam Bagdasarian (see the full list of Anonymous Book Recommendations here)

Video Episode: If you'd like to watch this conversation instead of just listening, you can find the video version on YouTube.

About When We Die Talks: When We Die Talks is a podcast built around anonymous conversations about death, loss, and how contemplating mortality shapes the way we live. If you’re new here, start with the Episode Guide. It’s designed to help you find conversations that match where you’re at—curiosity, grief, hesitation, or openness.

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Want to share your thoughts? Leave a voicemail at 971-328-0864 and share what you believe happens when we die. Messages may be featured in a future episode. If you’d like to have a full conversation, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at whenwedietalks.com.

Transcript

A Childhood Full Of Unseen Visitors

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I got banned from telling stories at school when I was in elementary because I started telling my classmates like things that their grandparents wanted to tell them. And that I didn't know that their grandparents weren't alive anymore. I just heard or like just you're seeing them physical person by them. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Wild.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

And I was like, hey, like which one of you's grandmother likes the color blue and wears a small gold cross necklace? And one of my classmates was like, Oh my gosh, my grandma wore one of those all the time.

SPEAKER_06 0:32

It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller. What do you think happens when we die? And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions. Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all. I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live. This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. I'm glad you're here. Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time. This week's caller was a toddler the first time their family realized something was different. They'd wake up in the middle of the night talking to someone who wasn't there, and the light in the room would already be on. A light they had no way of reaching themselves. One night their dad finally shouted through the house to turn it off and go back to sleep. Every light in the house went out at once. And things didn't stop there. Quickly in elementary school, they got banned from sharing during story time. They'd mentioned to a classmate the exact color and length of a classmate's grandmother's necklace. The grandmother had been dead for years. The classmates' parents started calling the school, trying to figure out how a kid knew the details like that. For a long time after that, our color just stopped telling people what they saw. It was easier to stay quiet than to be told they were imagining things. These days they work for the dead as a medium and make art about death, adding color to life back into something most people are taught to look away from. You don't have to believe in any of it to recognize the question underneath. When something happens that doesn't fit what you're taught to expect, do you let it sit there unexplained? Or do you find a way to explain it away before it can mean anything? Let's get into the call. I hope

Why Talking About Death Calms Us

SPEAKER_06 2:11

you enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So far so good. How are you?

SPEAKER_06 2:18

I'm doing okay. It's been one of those days where just like just feeling a little bit off, but we're here now, so we'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, hopefully it gets better.

SPEAKER_06 2:28

I I I don't know, it maybe is a strange thing to say, but talking to strangers on the phone about death for some reason has this kind of like calming and soothing effect on my life. So I feel like it's about to get better.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

That is entirely fair.

SPEAKER_06 2:41

Yeah. Well, first off, I just want to thank you for being willing to do this, to jump on the phone with a complete stranger and talk about death. And like I alluded to, it's something that brings me a lot of happiness, or I don't know, just it make it makes my day better. So I'm glad that we're getting to do this. I'm glad that you were interested to do this. I'm excited to have this conversation. One of the first things I like to ask to at least get things started. We'll obviously talk about this more in depth. So maybe just briefly you could let me know why you even wanted to do this conversation. It's a topic that many people avoid. People don't like talking about death. And you were, I don't know. I guess I don't know your mental state when you signed up. I was gonna say, I don't know your mental state when you signed up, but like you were probably excited or willing or whatever it is. And so yeah, maybe you could just briefly explain why you wanted to do this.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

The one of the largest kind of contributors is I am a medium, so I talk to and work with the dead on a daily basis, along with I am actively pursuing my degree in forensic anthropology and have been throughout different portions of the medical field. I am the person who has been kind of the resource for a lot of my friends and family whenever someone has unfortunately passed away that does all of the legwork of organizing the funeral, getting the families together, reaching out to people and being the one who informs them, stuff like that, and was put into kind of a death dual position at a couple different points of my life, even when I was fairly young. And so it's just something that I've been around a lot, and I'm currently an artist full-time where a lot of my artwork does deal with the forensic anthropology stuff and bones and death, and it shouldn't be something that everyone is scared of or is used as this like looming terror. It there is beauty. One of my largest and ongoing projects is just titled Beauty and Death, and it's I'm utilizing real skull references and bringing not refleshing them or anything like that, but adding glitter makes it sound kitschy or like crafty, but like sparkle or vibrant colors, something of there is life to it.

SPEAKER_06 5:12

Yeah, yeah. The opposite of what you would expect.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Comfort back into it.

SPEAKER_06 5:20

Yeah, that's very cool. And yeah, just across the board, so much to dive into. I'm excited to get into it. One one of the things from your application, and then obviously the very first thing that you said here, you are a medium. And this is a perspective, or yeah, I guess perspective that I haven't been able to have on the show. Haven't been able to talk to someone who is in that. Is line of work the way of saying that? Or like the I don't know exactly the right phrasing there.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Some people do make it their line of work. Yeah. I tend to fall under just someone with the ability because people can develop it. It's there's a whole lot of wishy-washy. Some people just naturally fall that way, or a lot of kids are born more open and things like that. And some people grow out of it or choose to distance themselves from it because it's it can be scary.

SPEAKER_05 6:19

Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Like it's stuff that's not widely understood. It's talking to people about it can be scary for them because they don't experience the world the same way.

SPEAKER_06 6:29

Yeah. So we're gonna call you like a hobbyist. And that might not be the right word either.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

But I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_06 6:35

But that feels like the best thing that I can come with of on the spot. But yeah, that's just not a perspective that I've had on the show before. And very excited to get into that. But obviously, it sounds like we're gonna go a lot of different ways. But before we do that, I do like to ask a couple questions just to get to know you a little bit, but still pretty broad that it shouldn't give you away.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

We're we're entirely fine. If for some chaotic reason it would, I'm I am probably one of the least concerns.

SPEAKER_06 7:04

Perfect. Perfect.

Growing Up In The Bible Belt

SPEAKER_06 7:05

What I like to ask is the state that you're calling from, and then the state that you would say that like you grew up in. Like what was your you know, like where you grew up in your like your foundational years, just to get an idea of I don't know, I think some of those things play a part in who we are and our thought processes, although not guaranteed for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

And then the second question is absolutely can.

SPEAKER_06 7:30

And then the second question is your favorite book and why.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Ooh. Okay. The first question I was born and raised in Nebraska.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

People tell me I have an accent. I can't hear it. If I get wound up, it definitely shows up more. Apologies if it uh makes an appearance.

SPEAKER_06 7:48

We'll try not, I don't know. I don't know if we want to get you wound up or not, but we'll find out. If that I guess that's the that'll be the uh the signifier if you are wound up, is if we can tell you have an accent. Because I would say I don't really hear I don't really hear much of one.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

We're diving deeper into a topic, and I get super excited. I'm gonna say, oh, there it was.

SPEAKER_06 8:08

There it is. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And I still live in Nebraska and have been pretty firmly in the Bible belt most of my life, and that's where like being a medium, being really comfortable with deaths, being comfortable with like addressing the not always light and shiny sunside portion of life, or recognizing that not everyone believes in particularly like heaven and hell, or maybe there's more options, or uh thousands of different options and things like that. And having that perspective has definitely opened a lot of doors and definitely got me kicked out of a few churches in the same way.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So, but it means that I have a multitude of perspectives from people who were a member of the church, and then just me finding of like what I actually believed when I found out that didn't fit well for me. And so I started just expanding more and more until I found things that fit better.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Uh and my favorite book has I'm I'm always in a perpetual tie between Lois Lowry's The Giver and Adam Bardarsian's Forgotten Fire. Okay, which is a deep dive on the two brothers' experiences of the prosecution of the Armenians in Turkey, which was essentially the Armenian genocide.

SPEAKER_06 9:44

And so why why are these two, you know, your favorites?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

The giver is the element of preserving memory, preserving things that other people have loved. Another portion of my art focuses very heavily on curiosity cabinets. And recently a study was released that a lot of people with neurodivergencies actually keep external memory banks, and that's why like collecting becomes really important to a lot of people who are neurodivergent because it's genuinely a way for them to keep memory.

SPEAKER_06 10:19

Huh. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

And the giver falls very well into that. Oh, not everybody should know everything, like it becomes overwhelming, it is dangerous to have all of this knowledge. Totally. Yes, having a lot of knowledge is a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah. But that is why we share it and provide it to others and have people to talk about it with, and it makes it lighter.

SPEAKER_05 10:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

And Forgotten Fire is a very it's intense.

SPEAKER_06 10:53

Um sounds like it.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

And it breaks down of it provides a lot of credit to a human's desire to survive and it shines light on the multiple ways in which people envision themselves surviving. Because some people do, you know, remove themselves from the situation. I'll choose to censor that a little bit and take different ways out, whilst others will endure everything to continue on, but they are all just making the choices in which they felt was best for them at that time and thought would be the best opportunity. Which it is not nothing is good in genocide.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

It is but the indomitable spirit of we just want to continue. I definitely find myself holding to that every once in a while when stuff does get really hard of okay, like we must provide ourselves spaces to grieve, to process, and then we can continue on to help others do the same.

SPEAKER_06 12:00

Yeah, I love that. I'm excited to check that. I obviously have, or maybe not obviously, but the giver read that. But yeah, I haven't heard of Forgotten Fire. So I'm definitely gonna check that out. Thank you for sharing it. And even just the way that you spoke about it was really beautiful. So thank you for that. Now we can kind of now we can get into the heart of the conversation. It

Fifty Doors And A Fluid Afterlife

SPEAKER_06 12:20

doesn't seem like you're gonna have much to say, just kidding. And we can start with the big question of what do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

So as far as the big question, I could probably give a million different answers because my own belief leaves it as it very much depends on the person. And what other belief systems they have, let's say, in their ancestry or that have touched them in particular ways throughout their lives, or maybe just ones that have reached out to them, but they didn't have a way to reach back in life. And so it's this element of hey, there's fifty doors. See if one of them speaks to you or looks a little more like home than others. And I don't feel as though that the afterlife is like a a one choice, you've you've made your choice, so you're stuck in there.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

It seems significantly more fluid of oh, this fits someone to process a particular, let's say, trauma they had in life or a situation they had in life. And then it's oh, okay, this belief or afterlife has helped them cope through that and reach a resolution that they no longer have that weight on them. Okay, this this surrounding is no longer suiting them. Okay, there are ten other doors. Do any of these help you continue to be the spirit you wish to be? Because not only are we is our goal while we're living to become who we want to be for ourselves and those we love, but I believe that continues on. And if people are content with who they are or happy, then you know, maybe an element like something what the traditional view of heaven is of you're reunited with your loved ones, things like that, and that's you just continue on your kind of day-to-day happy or your perspective of what a happy day-to-day would be. I know that I myself am a rather adventurous person, and the idea of having the same perfect day over and over doesn't appeal to me.

SPEAKER_06 14:31

Yeah, yeah, totally. Sounds terrifying. And I would not call myself an adventurous person, but I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

It it would freak me out.

SPEAKER_06 14:40

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

And I have a particular belief of which people can choose to do things after they've passed on, of whether that's helping other spirits or the providing guidance or just returning and starting a new life. Elements of like reincarnation or things about oh, going to a different planet and being another everything. I guess a little stretched, but I I'll believe whatever because science is going a long way and we're discovering more and more things every day. I until I can not real, I'll give it its grace.

SPEAKER_06 15:20

I feel like I have a million questions. You did cover some of them though, because one of the things I was curious and actually, if you have more to say, you go first and then I'll go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

I can patch out wherever.

SPEAKER_06 15:35

Oh man. Because like I said, I have a million different places. Because yeah, like you you continue to touch on things that were coming up. I think maybe one of the cooler ideas in my mind is reincarnation and just being able to come back and it's like, oh yeah, you touched on that, and you touched on and he on heaven and all these different aspects of it. So maybe I'm going to do the incredibly selfish thing and ask you about my own personal belief. And I think you maybe explained a little bit about it in not directly, but in uh an indirect way. But this is this idea has come up, what you're mentioning a couple times. You are probably the most direct about it from anybody that I've heard. But this idea of it's not one size fits all, and which sounds awesome. But I'm a person that for my entire life, until I started this project and as I'm working through things, maybe things are shifting a little bit, have felt like nothing happened. And so

Making Peace With The Void

SPEAKER_06 16:40

if I get what I believe, am I just getting nothing? And like the battle then is it's like then I want to believe in something, but then I'm trying to believe in something, and then then it's just uh, am I actually believing or am I trying to believe it because I think, you know, and and you can already hear the spiral that happens as I think about it. But what about the people that think that nothing happens? What's w how does that play into this for you?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

So there is absolutely space for that in this of scary space or nice space? Plenty of nice space.

SPEAKER_06 17:18

Okay, good, okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Plenty of night space because sometimes there is I will fully recognize that there is comfort in there are different aspects of what I would call the void.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

The void sounds scary, but there is some people see you hear people talking about oh, the light or oh, I just saw never-ending darkness. And it's like, okay, but what is more comfortable to you? Some people the idea of finally reaching a point. I also have chronic pain, so uh this is a conversation that I've had with some of my fellow people who suffer with chronic pain. Um the idea of reaching the an end of which there is finally nothing. There is no pain, there is no suffering, there is not even necessarily like a necessity for thought. There is just ongoing peace. And so then it is more of a left with a feeling versus a conscious stream of thought or need to do or necessity for anything, it is just perpetual contentness and peace.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

That doesn't that doesn't sound too bad.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah, and I definitely believe that is an option, that is something available to people, and some people would link that because I did study Buddhism for a little while, yeah, but it was just through a college professor, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I am not a representative.

SPEAKER_06 18:55

I say the same thing. I've done a few Buddhist classes and it aligns a little bit, but I am by no means an expert. I've probably said a million wrong things on here before, so I don't think you'll be any worse than I I have been.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Good. But the element of like reaching an element of nirvana, of where you have reached true peace, you have reached the end of your reincarnation cycles, you have reached a point in which you have to the extent that you don't really have to go anywhere else. You are what you need to be, and you have reached that point of utter contentness, and that's also okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

And if at some point there's a click or a shift where it's like, oh I'm not I'm no longer content in this, then obviously that's no longer going that void, that null is no longer going to fit and it will shift. I do not believe that anyone is ever locked out of anything, at least not a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_06 20:00

Okay. Yeah, like I said, I I have a million questions and maybe I'll just ask one more along this line, because I think the other thing is this is where the project started, right? And it shifted so much more into just hearing about humans and what their lives are like and their experience in the context or in the with the lens of death to some extent. And so there's so many elements that I want to hear about you, right? Not just about this idea, although I'm like, like I said, I have a million questions, and we could probably talk about this for a very long time, but I do want to hear about

God As A Choose Your Lens

SPEAKER_06 20:35

you. But before we go there, maybe the last thing that I'll ask is, and this isn't, I don't think I've actually asked anybody this question, but then like a higher power. What does that look like in this context? Is there a god? And I use that term maybe loosely and not necessarily any specific, like I'm not trying to point to any specific religious deity or anything like that. But yeah, but what does that play into this? Is there something I think I'm just gonna leave it at that.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I really wish that you could see my face right now because I am just super excited because that's one of my favorite things for as this kind of as the ball just kind of like turns like a cog.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

The the interesting portion is there is space for all and none.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

So if somebody chooses to forego anything of deities, higher powers, etc., you are not a person is not locked out of it. They are not forbade from anything beyond it just appears through a different lens. I myself believe that all I used to say this this way all the time in college. Do you care if people swear slightly?

SPEAKER_06 21:51

Oh, you can say whatever you want. Well, not whatever you want, but you can definitely curse and swear.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

So every religion Every belief system has its grains of sand. And there's a whole bunch of baffling awesome and so accurate, so perfect, makes complete sense no matter where you go. And then there's still a pretty solid shovel full of bullshit.

SPEAKER_06 22:16

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

And I am 100% of the mindset of take what suits you.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Love it, treasure it, make it work for you. Anything that does not, if it does not serve you, if it does not benefit you, your loved ones, your families, your community, don't take it with you.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

It a a religion sure benefits from having a community, but it doesn't need to feed from you if it is not fulfilling you.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I 100% believe that like any and all deities are real or have an extent to them, or celestials and elementals, things that are older than humans. All of that kind of stuff does exist to an extent. But do never sell your own power and ability short.

SPEAKER_06 23:08

I like that. I lied, I'm gonna ask one more question, but like I said, I do want to get into caring about the medium stuff, but I think you almost you've positioned this idea, and this is definitely an oversimplification of it, but you've almost positioned it as everything is possible in a way. And not so nothing is I think a thing that it's really hard to understand. Like I think we just I guess everything is very much like infinity for it's almost like you've created like an infinite. I think it's the opposite of nothing, although both those things mess with my brain when I think about them. And I don't think we can fully comprehend arguments. But so when someone says that they don't think anything happens. One of the questions that comes up, I think, often is then what's the point? Like, why are we doing this thing that this has to mean something? And I think the point could almost be asked. And I guess my factors are my argument is if nothing happens, then the fact that we're here is what's special. Like that should be special. It should need something else to make it special. And this might that might be the exact same answer to some extent. But since you've positioned the other end of that that's infinite, what's the point of this then? If that's a acceptable question.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

That is an absolutely acceptable question. A partner has been going through this with like distancing from Christianity, finding what they actually believe in, and learning what are the options, because like especially from the lens of Christianity, of oh, I didn't fully grieve my family who has passed on because I'll be reunited with them. They're not gone forever.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And if as that belief shifts and changes, you realize of I may not ever get to see them again. I may not ever get that. And then you have a continuing portion of it of this might be all I have. This however many years on this earth, that's all I got. And some people are like, oh, then flow in the towel. No, absolutely not. That should fuel you.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

You want to see as much as you can see, love all of the love everything that you can love and get to know as much as you can. Sure, it it in your portion, it may feel temporary, but create art, create science, learn, share that with those you love. And some people are like, oh, that's the reason to have kids. Not necessarily. Yeah, don't with your best friend.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Spend time with the shelter pets. Like, there is so much to do day to day. Like, even just this. Right now, I'm laid up with an injury, and getting to I could just have said, no, I don't have time. I'm gonna just do whatever. And but I'm like, no, I want to, I have some energy right now. I want to share it and talk to people about something I'm passionate about.

SPEAKER_06 26:16

Yeah, talk to this weird person about death.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Hey, it's one of my favorite things to do. I'm sure my partner, I don't know how I haven't talked their ears off.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Oh man, I love you're giving them a break.

SPEAKER_06 26:30

Perfect, perfect. That's what I'm here for. Yeah, I am now going to end my line of questioning around this. And I think the jumping off point for me is like the medium aspect of things.

What Mediumship Feels Like

SPEAKER_06 26:42

Like I'm sure that'd be very interesting to listeners. This isn't something that's come up. And so maybe the best place to jump off is I was gonna ask how you discovered this, but I think maybe it's more about what does it look like? Like when someone hears a medium, I think there's probably a certain connotation, a certain idea. Is that true? Like what how would you describe your, I guess what do we say, your hobby? How do you how would you describe this hobby? Yeah, exactly, of being a medium and what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

And I definitely call it a a lived experience because I didn't sign up. I didn't I didn't request it, I didn't train myself to do this. I might have trained myself eventually of how to better protect myself or create ways that I'm not just constantly uh getting phone calls for lack of better words.

SPEAKER_04 27:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

And so I think answer both of your questions. I discovered it. I grew up in a haunted house when I was a really little kid, and my parents would tell me that I would constantly be talking to something that wasn't in my room. Um fun for the parents, I'm sure. I was a large proponent of why we moved. As soon as it reached a point that because I was still very young, could not make full sentences or anything yet, but my parents would know that would notice that the light was coming on in my room anytime that I woke up. I had no way of reaching said light. And if I woke up at three in the morning and was just chattering to myself, typically parents are like, Okay, kids safe, whatever, we're gonna go back to bed, especially during that like kids figuring out when they really actually should sleep.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

And then it became a point of no lights in the house would turn on. Of hey, hello, the kids awake, why aren't you awake? And my dad got fed up with him one day and shouted through the house of turn off the lights, we're going to bed. And all of the light, like the power went out.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

And he was like, Okay, we're moving. We're done. We're done.

SPEAKER_06 28:53

Yeah, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And like it had been brought up a couple times. I got banned from telling stories at school when I was in elementary because I started telling my classmates like things that their grandparents wanted to tell them. And that I didn't know that their grandparents weren't alive anymore. I just heard or I was gonna say standing by them and was like Okay, so yeah, that's I was gonna say, like, that's what it was like is just you're seeing them. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Wild.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

And I was like, hey, like, which one of you's grandmother likes the color blue and wears a small gold cross necklace? And it's it's not a choker, it's like down three inches. And one of my classmates was like, Oh my gosh, my grandma wore one of those all the time. And I was like, Hey, she like wanted to make sure that you remembered to tell your dad something, or hey, he needs to really look in the box in the closet. And I didn't know this, but they were looking, they were trying really hard to find like a family heirloom or like a photo book. I don't know what it was, but I off-handedly just mentioned it.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

And then parents were calling and they were like, Why does this kid know things about our family? Why do they know their grandparents' things?

SPEAKER_06 30:06

What have they been doing in our house?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Right. And so I got banned from storytime.

SPEAKER_06 30:12

Bummer. Bummer.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

But there would be elements like that, or I would I pretty well shut it down for a while and just stopped bringing it up because it was always like, oh, you're imagining it, you're playing pretend, you're playing pretend, you're playing pretend. And so I'm like, okay, but I'm saying things that are pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_06 30:30

Yeah. And so when you say shut it down, I'm assuming it's if this is the right way of phrasing it, like the input is still happening, but the output is just yeah, I'm not gonna say anything because people are thinking a million things, but things are it's not like you're like and I don't know why this is what came to my head, but it's not like you put like a tinfoil hat on or okay, no more signals coming in, like I'm blocking things. But just not not sharing it because it wasn't it was getting it was the the cost, the benefit was not worth it, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Correct.

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Okay, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

And then it was the like, oh, people are gonna think you're crazy, and it's like, okay, whatever, I'll just shut up and I'll pacify them as much as I can, or I would figure out ways to like work around it if they're like, oh, tell them I said this, and it's this really specific thing. I'd be like, Hey, I know you mentioned that you were looking for something like a week ago. Did did you ever happen to did you ever ask your sister if she's seen it? Maybe like check and would try to vague it enough that I wouldn't weird people out.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

Yeah, yeah.

College Tests And Psychic Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 31:44

And I just worked with that for a really long time until I got into college and one of my professors made a really specific comment that piqued my interest about a remains in Pompeii. And he turns and looks directly at me and goes, Dan, I wonder if anyone would know what it would be like to be sheltered with your partner under a mantle and looks dead at me, and all of the hair on my arm stood up, and I took a step back, and it's I'm going to assume that it's pretty terrifying hanging on to the love of your life and knowing that mountains of ash are coming down. And he's he's shit eating smirk just looks at me and it's okay, he knows something. This man knows something.

SPEAKER_05 32:41

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

And so I started to test small things. Of one day in class, I was like, what if I just see if I can ask some spirits or whatnot to stand in the center of the room or something like that, to just create a a space that is occupied in the center of the room. And this is a professor who would pace incessantly. And he started to walk around the center of the room. And so I was like, okay, all right, I'll take that. And I was hanging out with a couple other people who hadn't mentioned they were mediums but had a bit more kind of awareness to that to them. And the two of them had gotten to an argument. And so I one retreated myself into more of a bubble to just stay away from the energy that was happening from them. And because I can pick up on emotions in a more physical sense. Okay, it'll feel like pressure coming off of people. And so I distanced myself and added kind of a barrier to it and was just like, Nope, calm, everything is calm. I don't like everything yelling. And the two of them suddenly snapped towards me and they're like, What did you just do?

SPEAKER_04 33:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

I'm like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What did I just do? I didn't do anything. And they're like, No, hello, the the room that we are in is now suddenly a forest. Why? And I was like, you guys can see that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Oh. Huh. Neat. And so a few months after that, they took me to visit one of their friends and who's has who's significantly older than all of us and has been obviously older than us, has been a medium for longer. And she like looks at me and I pretty well can mask it from other mediums because I'm not a huge fan of advertising it typically.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Some people get to be a little rude about the questions or whatever. Oh, tell me the winning water tickets. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't work like that.

SPEAKER_05 34:51

Yeah, I am not a time traveler.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I'm not a time traveler, at least not like that.

SPEAKER_05 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

And so I'm so used to seeing all of these spirits or animals, and I mostly at this point focus more on animal spirits and things like that, of making sure that roadkill get the peace they deserve. Little things. Yeah. And as I'm sitting at this table, all of a sudden the woman slams her fist on the table and looks at the window and goes, whose ever's fucking horse is that? Can he stop sticking his head through my door? And then I start laughing because I have always had a large horse figure that just hangs out with me. He's my bestie.

SPEAKER_06 35:41

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And I'm just used to it.

SPEAKER_06 35:43

That sounds like the best kind of horse to own. Like one that, like, you know, you don't have to have a stall and stuff like that. Like it just like that sounds like the right kind of horse.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

I really wish he could work as a mode of transportation because it's way cheaper than gas. But I was absolutely flabbergasted. I have always been logic first. If a light turns on, okay, I'm checking the fuses. I'm if I hear shifts, it's like, okay, I'm checking the hinges. You know, if I hear something, it's like, okay, or is there someone outside my house? Is there someone walking down the street? Things like that. I will always go logical first, then I'll expand from there. And I had never mentioned to anyone in my life that there has always been a horse. And she described him to a T.

SPEAKER_06 36:33

Whoa, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

And I was like, okay, I can't disprove that anymore. I now have to make space in my logic for this. And we have provided each other enough information that like I know that she wouldn't know. There's no way that I would know that she would know. I gotta make space for this. Yeah.

The Message That Brought Tears

SPEAKER_01 36:56

And that has expanded into me just going somewhere and displaying my art and having someone come up and mention that they were having a really rough time and that they couldn't afford a tarot reading, but they just need a little bit of direction and they were just having a really trashy day. And I told her I was like, hey, I don't typically do readings, I don't typically I don't do this for money. I it sometimes it just feels weird to me, unless it's like people doing it for fun. But if someone's genuinely just reaching out of I need some kind of guidance, I don't want to charge for that, especially if someone's wanting to provide them guidance.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

And I mentioned to her, I was like, there is somebody who is trying to tell you something, and but he I can't get his name, it's hard to pronounce. But he says that the descriptor is that he would be as tall as me if he could stand, but he's only at my shoulder height right now. And her face just drops immediately. She's like, What do you mean of if I could stand? And I was like, I don't know. He's like gesturing to the lower half of his body, he looks reclined, like maybe he's in a wheelchair, but it's not short, it's up higher. And she goes, Oh my god, he had cerebral palsy. He was in a large chair that would allow him to be almost standing. And I was like, Okay, I definitely would have never there is no way that I would know any of the okay, all right. And I was like, This is what he wants you guys to know. He wants you guys to know that he is looking out for you, he does still care. Please make sure you bring grandma her favorite flowers. Do not bring her the yellow ones again this year, or she's going to throw them in the trash. Bring her red. And and he's she would she's never corrected you guys, but she hates them every year. Please bring her red. And evidently he'd been gone for about three years at this point. And she's okay, can is there anything that like that I can tell dad to let me know that like this is genuine? And I got a full sentence response, which usually communications can be that strong, but it's usually pretty broken up or PC. Kind of like talking through a rough cell phone connection, okay. Unless someone's really determined.

SPEAKER_06 39:15

They're paying for like the the high quality connection.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:19

They've upgraded.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I get this immediate full sentence. A lot of people think that I was mad when I died because I was a day before my birthday. No, it's because I died before my favorite meal at the nursing home, and it was Salisbury steak, and they made it better than my wife, but for the love of God, don't tell her. And I said it exactly this way to her, and she goes, and she starts cr crying, and she calls her dad, and she goes, Dad, you know how you told me you would never tell me the secret that grandpa told you, and I think grandpa just told me the secret that you said you'd never tell me. Who and she puts him on speaker and he goes, What? Like, what do you pull out? What are you talking about? And she goes, Salisbury steak, and how we're not allowed to tell Nona. And she looks at me and she goes, We're from a huge Italian family. You do not critique grandma's cooking.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Whoa. That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

And like there's at this point, I was at an artist market, and so six other people are like standing there looking at me. Oh, yeah, there's a crowd. Watch this occur and they're like, What is happening? And so this woman, like, full tears, gives me a hug, and then sprints off, talking to her dad, and is has some light back in her and is really excited. And she had started off just really down. And I was like, Good to know that worked. Now I'm really weirded out that Salisbury steak is what sold me on this having an element of realism to me. Thanks.

SPEAKER_06 40:49

Yeah, totally. That's so wild.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

But yeah, there's it's so strange. I like that I can recognize that it's it's weird.

SPEAKER_06 41:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Why Some Spirits Stay Reachable

SPEAKER_06 41:01

I think the thing that is probably standing out most to me is maybe bringing these two elements together. We talked about this kind of like the theory of everything. There's an interesting aspect of this, right? Where there you are having these communications or whatever you want to call them. And with this idea of I'm still gonna say it, the theory of everything, of all these things, all these possibilities. These people are then choosing to stay behind in some capacity, or maybe not behind's probably not there's probably no forward or backward or anything like that, but they're choosing to stay on this plane of existence, I guess, is maybe a way of saying it. And yeah, how does that play in?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

There are ways to in depending on what someone kind of chooses or is more comfortable with, because the the portion of my belief in everything for afterlife, it also provides space for and provides credibility to every person's experience and their belief kind of dictates what they can do and what they have access to. So there are some people who of course believe that it's just heaven, and so that's it, which to me feels really limiting. If they're happy there, that's wonderful. But then that's all they have is just that, which if they're happy with that, that's one that's fantastic. I'm I'm happy for them. But there are some others who believe that you could reach back out and give your family messages and stuff, but they still believed in heaven and whatnot. And I have one of those family members in my life who unfortunately passed very young, and I am very lucky to on occasion, it's the like, hey, you know, I only get a a 15-minute call basically, and then I gotta go back home to where I'm supposed to be. And that's how he believed it when he was alive, and so that's pretty much what he sticks to. He's got a little bit more elasticity just due to communing with me, but that's pretty well what he's comfortable with and stays around. But it's that element of hey, I can pop in a little bit and provide a little and then I gotta go. But other people, there's certain family members and stuff that I've tried to reach out for friends or things like that, and I'm like, I they are not in a reachable place for me because they'd never believed that was possible. I'm not going to intrude upon them. But if there are elements where people have that curiosity, like you already have that curiosity, you're not shut off to it.

SPEAKER_06 43:40

That's what you think.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

It's the curiosity.

SPEAKER_06 43:44

No, I'm here. I'm here, I'm curious. I'm curious for sure. I'm very curious. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just like, I need to start believing in everything.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Unless they choose to stop it.

SPEAKER_06 43:56

I like that. Yeah.

unknown 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:58

But now I'm just like, I need to believe in everything.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

So you are a person who wants to just shut everything down.

SPEAKER_06 44:03

See, this is not the first time this has happened where the the last time it was an actual therapist, but now I feel like I'm having you like therapise me on call and being like, No, you believe in things. You're not gonna end up in the void and be sad and all by yourself. Like you're curious. Like now it just feels like a little bit of like a therapy session, but yeah, this is all so fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

I have never met a spirit who is unable to find happiness. Like, yes, there are some that choose to stay mad.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Stay upset. Things like that. But they are choosing that for themselves.

SPEAKER_06 44:52

And which sounds like a ridiculous thing, but we do it all the time here already.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 44:59

There's obviously things that happen to us that we're still human. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Like there's definitely things involved making these choices.

SPEAKER_06 45:06

Yeah, yeah. It's so it's I could see someone being like, that's a dumb thing to do once you're out of this, but it's like, no, you yeah, I it makes total sense because it's very human. It's very natural to to grab onto things, to hold grudges, want revenge. Like those are clearly things that that people hold on to in this existence, let alone and I don't I'm getting confused how to describe these things. Yeah, totally, totally. I've absolutely loved this conversation. We're definitely

Purpose And Forensic Anthropology Plans

SPEAKER_06 45:37

gonna have to do a follow-up or something, but I'm gonna I'm gonna start to wrap it up. I have one last question that I ask everybody. What's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Oh man, that is an endless response.

SPEAKER_06 45:54

Of course, the person who has the theory of everything has an endless response for this question.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

My biggest one is I'm probably man, you were talking about people therapizing, and I'm over here therapist with this one. Reaching a point in which I feel as though I have succeeded and I have done what I am to be doing.

SPEAKER_05 46:25

Like your true purpose.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Right, which like is the you know, feels laby fair of whatever. I I just want to do what I'm supposed to be doing, which isn't necessarily accurate because I don't believe in like predetermined outcomes, yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

It is more of a level of with forensics and stuff, like I want to be able to continue making sure that people get to go home, that spirits get to find their place of rest, that us as living people get to feel a little bit more at home and loved in our bodies and with our communities, whether that be like five minutes away or 13 hours away via phone call. I want my community and even the people that I just randomly encounter to know that they are cared about and loved and have so much so many possibilities open to them. And that is what I care about. And as long as I can help get that out to more people, then I'm doing what I should be doing.

SPEAKER_06 47:29

Yeah, I think that's a wonderful answer. It's and the one thing that I was thinking about probably the last like 10 or 15 minutes of call, and obviously we mentioned multiple times like doing a follow-up at some point, but we didn't even touch on the forensic anthropology part of this. And so maybe just I don't know, again, like at the top of the episode or the beginning. I don't know if that's the top or the bottom. I don't know where the where things start or where things end. But yeah, at the beginning of the episode, like, yeah, I'm a little lost. But yeah, maybe because your answer kind of touched on it a little bit. Maybe just again, briefly, what's your plan with forensic anthropology? What does what do things look like? It sounds like you're you're just starting your degree or you're in the program. So what does that look like? And then we'll wrap up. But I promise that's my last question.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Okay, you're fine. I'm essentially just starting. I'm I've been accepted to grad school, but unfortunately, due to an injury and other issues at my previous job, I have had to spend extra time between moving back into my degree again after losing my recent job. And so I am on pause, but I've been studying medical illustration since 2020.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

And so I'm still associated by proxy with the field, but I am not in as far as I will be, say, in throughout the next eight to ten years.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Because I will be pursuing it as a graduate degree, not an undergrad.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

But my goal with that degree is to eventually work on separating and reassembling the victims found and discovered in mass race.

SPEAKER_06 49:05

Wow. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Because everyone deserves to be known and to go home.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

Yeah, that's really beautiful. And you'll definitely have to stay in touch over the period of eight to ten years so I can hear more about this and see how the progress is going.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

That would be wonderful for updates on podcasts. And man, I have so much spooky art that it'd be a shame if you needed some covers.

SPEAKER_06 49:31

Oh, that'd be awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely have to talk more. But yeah, I just want to say thank you so much for being willing to do this. I'm really glad that you are willing to share your stories, to share your theory of everything, the true theory of everything. And uh yeah, just thank you so much. I'm really grateful.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 49:49

Well, yeah, definitely stay in touch over the next approximately eight to ten years. And uh yeah. I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

You as well. I look forward to it.

SPEAKER_06 50:02

Awesome. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yep, yep. Bye.

SPEAKER_06 50:05

Bye.

A Hike Becomes A Goodbye

SPEAKER_06 50:06

Logic first. That's always how our caller describe themselves. Check the wiring, check the hinges, look for the ordinary explanation before anything else. But logic was never the whole story for them. It was just the first door, not the only one. Maybe you've never had to decide whether to trust something you couldn't explain, but at some point, something has probably happened to you that didn't fit the ordinary explanation, and you had to decide what to do with it anyway. You either can shut it down or allow for a little bit of mystery. I had a little bit of a moment like that this week. My good friend Don, who many of you know, near the end, told me that there was this hike he wanted me to do this summer. He said it plainly that he wouldn't be here for it. That was the first moment his dying stopped being an idea and started being real for me. I finally did it this week, got my ass kicked. Over 3,000 feet of elevation gained straight up the whole way, and there were a handful of moments near the top where I seriously considered turning around and calling it good. But I didn't. And at the summit I found a small plaque and it said, Walk gently, friend. You're walking in the path of those who went before. I don't know if that's why Don wanted me up there, or if it was just because it was his favorite hike, but in some ways it felt like he was leaving me a message. And it made me think a lot about him and his path, but it also made me think about my path and what I'm leaving behind for people. More soon, I'll see you next week.

Capturing Life Stories With Nemosene

SPEAKER_06 51:30

When we die talks exist because people have stories worth telling, and most of them never get told in a way that lasts. Momostheny is my attempt to do something about that. It actually started with a guest from the show, and after his interview, he told me how much it meant to have something he could share with the people in his life. So he didn't have to keep repeating himself, and so nothing got lost over time. I couldn't stop thinking about how many people have a version of that. Honestly, all of us do. All of us have a life worth capturing, and people who love us and would give anything to hear told. Demostheny is a guided conversation with me where we capture someone's life in their own words, where they come from, what made them who they are, and the stories they want people they love to know. The recording is yours, private, personal, something you can share with anyone you want. If someone came to mind just now, even if it was yourself, that's probably worth paying attention to. You can learn more at Namasony.com. That's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com. Thanks

Apply To Call In And Support

SPEAKER_06 52:33

for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks. These conversations don't offer answers, but they do open space. Space to reflect, to feel less alone, and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before. If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud, you can apply to be an anonymous caller at WhenWeDietalks.com. And if a full call feels like too much, the voicemail is always open. Leave a message at 971-328-0864 and share whatever death has stirred in your life. Listener support truly helps keep this project going. If you'd like to support the podcast, you'll find a link in the show notes. And as always, please like, share, and follow. Every bit makes a difference. Until next time, have a good life.