78.How to Find Hope After Trauma | Jennifer Hand on Faith, Healing & Survival Mode

What if the hope you've been searching for isn't gone — just buried?

After trauma, loss, or a season that's left you feeling undone, it can be hard to believe that anything is still steady beneath the rubble. The ground has shifted. Hope feels fragile, or distant, or simply out of reach. 

Read the full article version at GingerHarrington.com

Trauma counselor and author Jennifer Hand has spent years in the hardest places — from earthquake zones in Nepal and Turkey to exhausted caregivers and grieving families — and she keeps finding the same thing: hope is there. It just needs to be uncovered.

In this conversation, Jenn brings both clinical training and personal experience to an honest, practical discussion about what trauma actually does to the brain and body, how to recognize when you're stuck in survival mode, and why healing doesn't require rebuilding everything at once. 

She also shares what she believes is the most important thing to reestablish after any trauma — and the one question she asked every single counseling client before anything else. It isn't in her book. She saved it for you.

Key Scriptures: Psalm 139 | Psalm 91 | Psalm 121 | Romans 8

In this episode:

• What trauma really is — and why you may not recognize it in yourself
• Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn explained in plain, compassionate language
• Why safety must come before healing — and how Psalm 91 speaks to that need
• Practical grounding tools you can use today, most of them free
• Why caregivers experience trauma too — and what they need to hear most
• The one question Jenn asked every counseling client first — and never put in her book

Your story is not over, friend. One gentle step at a time, hope can be uncovered again.

Check out Jennifer's book, Hope Beneath the Rubble: Healing After Trauma.

Read the full article here. 

*This is an affiliate link 

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

Hope Beneath the Rubble: Healing After Trauma by Jennifer Hand

Holy in the Moment: Simple Ways to Love God by Ginger Harrington

How to Scripture Journal (Episode 69)

Related Content

Each link features the article, podcast, and video of the content.

• How Gratitude Can Anchor Your Heart in Grief and Trauma. Interview with Christian counselor, Heather Shealy-Mawhirter, LPC (Episode 61)
• How to Find God's Peace that Guards Your Heart | A Study of Philippians 4:7 (Episode 56)
• Finding Peace with Becky Keife | A Verse a Day for the Anxious Soul (Episode 58)

Transcript

Ginger Harrington (00:03.035)

What if the hope that you're searching for isn't gone, but buried? After trauma, loss, or heartbreak, it can feel like everything that once made life feel steady has collapsed. And when you're standing in the rubble, hope can feel distant, fragile, or even impossible. But what if healing doesn't begin by rebuilding everything at once? What if it begins by uncovering the hope that's already there?

Welcome to the Habits of Hope podcast where we believe a deeper life is formed through simple, faith-rooted rhythms that help us trust God in every season. I'm Ginger Harrington, author, speaker, and longtime encourager for those who feel weary, stretched thin, or unsure how to keep walking forward in faith. Through the podcast, we offer general reminders, biblical perspective, and practical habits that can help us stay anchored in hope.

even when life feels uncertain or overwhelming. And joining me as always is my dear friend and co-host Larissa. Hello, friend.

Larissa Traquair (01:09.432)

Hey Ginger, and I know I say this every single time, but I am seriously excited about today's episode. And I was thinking Ginger, know, today's episode is one of the reasons I wanted to be in ministry with you, getting to meet and interview amazing women like our special guest today is just one of the great privileges. And I will never tire of hearing how others cling to hope in every season.

Jenn (01:33.699)

Mm.

Larissa Traquair (01:34.04)

So for those of you who don't know, I'm Larissa Grateful Chick, live broadcaster, founder of the Cultivate Community and co-host of this podcast. If you've ever walked through trauma, grief, illness, or a season that left you feeling undone, or if you love someone who has, this conversation is especially for you. Today we are joined by Jennifer Hand, author of Hope Beneath the Rubble, Healing After Trauma.

A compassionate and practical guide for finding healing when life has been shaken to the core. Jennifer brings both professional trauma-informed insight and deep faith to this conversation. And I believe her words will gently meet you right where you are. Jennifer Hand is a trauma counselor, speaker, and author who has spent years walking alongside individuals and communities in the aftermath of crisis, loss, and deep pain.

Drawing from both professional experience and personal understanding, Jennifer writes with clarity, tenderness, and hope. Jennifer, welcome to the Habits of Hope podcast. We're so grateful you are here.

Jenn (02:45.29)

I am so happy to be with you ladies and you guys have the most beautiful podcasting voices. I've been on a lot of podcasts. I'm telling you, I just wanted to listen to you forever. That was so honor and just really honored and excited to be here with you and offer some hope today. So thank you for having me.

Larissa Traquair (02:56.979)

Larissa Traquair (03:06.146)

Well, yeah, yeah, we're so grateful you're here. And I just wanna tell our listeners a couple of things. So Jen loves coffee, and I know Ginger does too, and I would love it if it liked me. So hence why I have a Tumblr, while they have cute mugs. And so she's actually, we're gonna talk about her current book today, but she actually has several other books. And one of them is a whole book on coffee. So I know we'll probably bring that up.

Ginger Harrington (03:06.285)

you are so welcome.

Larissa Traquair (03:32.77)

But what I love is some of our history. So Ginger has actually met Jen in person, eyeball to eyeball, which I'm totally jealous in the best of ways. And I've known Jen for a long time since I started my broadcasting career, but I've never gotten to meet her. So I just wanna say this publicly, you're one of my most favorite people that I've never met. So I hope one day.

Jenn (03:38.114)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (03:48.673)

Hmm.

Jenn (03:53.251)

We have to change that, Larissa. We gotta change it.

Larissa Traquair (03:57.238)

I know, we do, right? We do, and I love the great state of Tennessee, so I know there will be an opportunity for that. But one of the things I love is your humor and how the Lord uses that. And you know a little bit of my story. You know, during the whole season with Bill and his terminal cancer, we used humor. It was natural out of Bill. You and Bill would have done great together. But humor really can help, and so you're gonna hear that.

Jenn (04:17.794)

Hmm.

Larissa Traquair (04:25.314)

throughout this podcast interview and just grateful for that, Jen. So again, welcome.

Jenn (04:31.788)

Thank you, I'm so honored to be here and I do love how you have lived this message out, Larissa. I've seen it engender you as well in your ministries and in your lives, offering what you've learned is how to find hope beneath your own personal rebel. And so it's just an honor to share that hope with your listeners today.

Ginger Harrington (04:51.867)

Well, we've been super excited to have you on the podcast. so Jen, let's just kick this interview off and jump right into it. For those who don't know you or who are just getting to know you, can you share a little bit about your story and how your journey into trauma counseling shaped the way you understand hope and healing? Nothing like a, you know, knock the ball out of the park question right out the gate.

Jenn (05:19.976)

I it Ginger, I love it. Well I love Psalm 139 where it says God has fearfully and wonderfully made each one of us. He's numbered our days and it's so interesting how God made me Ginger. How He made all of us. But okay, I love to have fun. I love joy. I love play. I love to laugh. And so for God to call someone like me into the holy ground of suffering, which is what I call when you get to stand with someone.

that has lost everything or their earth has literally shaken to the core. Sometimes I've been in a literal earthquake with them where around the world responding where there's rubble of their actual lives, homes, things. But oftentimes people have gone through rubble of when a moment or a lot of series of moments has changed everything for them. And I...

really feel called to those holy grounds of suffering and to offer hope and appropriately provide you're not alone, you're not crazy, trauma is hard, here's what it does in your body, here's how your brain works as the practical training I got getting my masters in counseling and then also to provide joy and levity in the middle of it. And so I wanted to be a missionary and I was, I lived on the mission field and I still am a missionary but I lived in Nepal.

And I felt God call me to get a master's in counseling and I kind of thought he was crazy. But I got trained, I didn't feel called to have a practice. I just knew that was the next step. then right after I got my master's, there was a major massive earthquake in Nepal and I speak Nepalese and I went and offered trauma care on their holy ground of suffering and that kind of launched me into this ministry.

Larissa Traquair (06:48.618)

Right?

Jenn (07:11.07)

of showing up around the world after natural disasters, war, and relational disasters. So that's how God did it. He surprised me too, Ginger.

Ginger Harrington (07:21.233)

Wow, that is just incredible. That is such a God story.

Larissa Traquair (07:27.499)

Yeah.

Jenn (07:27.69)

It was clear direction from him that I would not have expected, anticipated, and I've now been able to travel to 58 countries and show up and just remind people one of my favorite names of God is Emmanuel. He's with us. And I think when you're in trauma, you feel alone, you feel isolated, you feel you're asking the question, will I ever be normal? What is my new normal? Am I normal? And to just stand with someone and to say, I'm with you.

just like Emmanuel got with us, so it is an honor.

Ginger Harrington (08:02.404)

my goodness. Well, one of the phrases that I have heard you talk about so often, and you probably have a book on this one, my yes is on the table, right? Isn't that, that's something that is one of your things. And how does that phrase relate to this experience? Is that where God started, you know, asking hard things of you and you're like, okay, yes.

Jenn (08:29.469)

Yes, I remember it is a book. Yes, you're right Ginger. It is a book that was published by Moody in 2022. So I had the honor of writing. My guess is on the table, moving from fear to faith. It was too long for the subtitle, but what I like to say is from fear stops into faith steps. And I was floating in a pool doing something fun.

when I was dog sitting at this beautiful house, I'm a missionary so I love to dog sit at beautiful houses and floating in their pool and I felt like the Lord said, will you offer me your yes? And I was thinking, I thought I already had, I've already said yes Lord to whatever and.

And the Lord just reminded me again, will you put your yes on the table and say yes to whoever, however, whatever I have for you. Whether that is a Monday Monday in the grocery store, being bold and asking someone if they need prayer or just being kind to the people bagging your groceries, which they don't do that anymore, really, you know? Or whether your yes is getting a call saying, will you go to Ukraine in the middle of the war? And having already said yes so that

Ginger Harrington (09:26.28)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (09:40.862)

It doesn't matter how I'm feeling, I've already put my yes on the table.

Ginger Harrington (09:47.25)

That's awesome. Does it get easier once you say the first hard yes, does it get easier?

Jenn (09:52.547)

Well Ginger, it's a moment by moment surrender is what I'm saying. So just like finding hope in the middle of trauma is a moment by moment, one step at a time. We would like things to be one and done, we? But unfortunately it is a surrender. I say unfortunately, but fortunately that brings us to the relationship part with God where we're desperate for Him and reliant on Him.

Ginger Harrington (09:57.929)

you

Larissa Traquair (10:08.096)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (10:20.97)

Yeah, that's so good, Jen. As I read your book, one of the things that stood out to me right away was how you talked about hope. And of course, you know, we are the Habits of Hope podcast, not as something rushed or forced, but something uncovered. So how do you define hope for someone who has been through trauma or deep loss? What does hope beneath the rubble really mean in everyday life?

Jenn (10:48.886)

I think it is reminding people that it's a process. Just like grief, Laura said, you know. Wouldn't you love if it was linear? Linear? That's hard to say. Linear? And you just went through the stages and you were done. Check. Okay. I'm no longer grieving. Hope is the same way. It is a process. And sometimes it is the tiniest step of, I just need to pause here and get my brain out of fight, flight, freeze mode. And I just need to breathe.

Larissa Traquair (10:56.832)

Yes.

Larissa Traquair (11:01.92)

Yeah, yeah.

Jenn (11:17.684)

And that's the hope I have today is that I'm going to take steady breaths. That's one of the techniques and it's free, which I'm glad I love the breathing is free. so hope is a, it is a foundation, but it's also a process. And I love how all throughout the scripture, it tells us that hope does not disappoint those who hope in him will not be put to shame. But it is important to remember that we,

Larissa Traquair (11:33.74)

Hmm.

Jenn (11:46.762)

Just if you have a moment of not feeling hope, it doesn't mean you're hopeless. It just means you gotta uncover even the tiniest baby step, one thing at a time.

Larissa Traquair (11:50.604)

Mm.

Larissa Traquair (11:56.471)

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I feel like I'd be remiss without showing at least those on YouTube. This is actually what the book looks like. I know we're going to talk more about it and everything's going to be linked in the show notes. But I just love how big that word hope is in your title. so thanks just for sharing your heart because I know you've lived this out as well.

Jenn (12:19.628)

Well, I've just seen people at their most desperate hours and they're asking, the first question they always ask is, will I ever feel normal again? And I think the hopelessness in that is so strong that it could paralyze you. And also the gift of the way God made us is we go into that fight, flight, freezer, fawn in a survival mode. And that's the gift for the moment, but you can't stay there because if you stay there,

then you're frozen or you're always fighting or you're always fleeing. so the book is tools of, okay, how do we recognize this is good? And it is a tool, but when do we move from it being where you're stuck? And then, you know, so just finding that, that big old hope that there is, you may never find your old normal, but you are normal. That's the number one thing is that it is normal to process through trauma.

Larissa Traquair (13:17.099)

Yeah.

Jenn (13:17.685)

And then the other thing is you'll find your new normal.

Ginger Harrington (13:22.694)

Yeah, you know, thought that comes to mind is we just recorded the other day. It'll it'll publish long before your interview does on Matthew six. Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things that we worry about will be added to us. Don't you know, then we didn't talk about this, but it says then, you know, don't be anxious for tomorrow because today has enough trouble of its own. And, you know, it's be so easy to take that all these things thought.

and think, well, if I just trust God, I'll get everything I want. But Jesus is so candid about there is trouble. There are hard things. And yet God is so faithful. And you just give us such a beautiful picture of that. Speaking of scriptures, I know you mentioned that one Psalm 139 is very meaningful to you when it comes to ministering to people with hope.

in these hard places? Is there a specific scripture that the Lord brings you back to again and again?

Jenn (14:27.234)

You know, the Bible is full of hope. Aren't we so glad? I'm so grateful for that. But I find that Psalm, the whole book of Psalms is full of emotions. And I think that's very helpful to someone going through trauma because they need to know it's okay to feel emotions and to be up and down and all around. And so I, there's so many Psalms I go back to, but like Psalms 121,

Ginger Harrington (14:32.606)

Yes.

Jenn (14:54.946)

The Lord is my helper. I will look to the mountains from where does my help come from? Psalm 91, under the shadow of his wings, I can rest. And I think when you've experienced trauma, the number one thing that you need reestablished in you is safety, a sense of safety. And maybe that's emotional safety, maybe it's relational safety, physical safety, because that is taken from you. I would say one of the definitions of trauma is anytime you feel unsafe.

And so that can be in a number of different ways. But for example, if you've been in an earthquake or a relational earthquake, a betrayal, a death, a sudden Psalm 91, the reminder that we can rest under the shadow of the Almighty wings, His power, His protection. I often for myself have to go back to that again and again. And then Romans eight, I love the end of Romans eight.

I think you have to be very careful. A lot of people want to quote Romans 8.28 to people in suffering, which says he will work all things together. That is a key to know at some point, but that can also be a weapon to someone that doesn't feel that right then and that moment. And so I more would focus on the end of Romans 8, which says nothing can separate you, nothing, neither life nor death nor the present nor things to come. This is Jen's translation.

Larissa Traquair (16:06.697)

Yeah.

Jenn (16:18.442)

loosely, nothing can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And I think if they know Christ, that is a key. If they don't know him yet, then they don't understand. You got to start with telling him who Christ is. But if you know Christ, that's a key reminder that nothing will separate you from his love.

Ginger Harrington (16:38.887)

Yeah. Amen. Well, that just brings forward a question that I'm going to just pop in here that's not in our notes. I would think that when people are going through particularly like natural disaster type of any kind of trauma, do you find that people who don't know the Lord are often more open to being introduced to Jesus or do you? I'm sure it's a case by case scenario, but has God opened up some really

Larissa Traquair (16:39.081)

Amen.

Ginger Harrington (17:08.401)

conversations to be able to introduce somebody to Jesus when someone is in trauma.

Jenn (17:14.758)

yeah, it is definitely a ripe place for people looking to have answers and something to hold on to. It's also a fine balance where you need, as a believer, to ask the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom and guidance because you don't want to use their trauma in a way that is not caring or compassionate to them. And so I travel all around the world. I've spent tons of time in even closed countries where they're closed to the gospel and

And I'll tell you, I've heard again and again, several stories of people, especially in earthquakes. I spent a lot of time after the earthquake in Turkey with literally helping people unbury bodies, rubble. And I met so many people that were buried under rubble for days. And I would ask them what kept them alive. And I heard the same answers over and over. Hope that they would be found and rescued.

And we need that in any trauma, whatever it is. That's how we survive. And that they would have visions of a man named Jesus meeting them and telling them they would be, he was with them. And so I love how God breaks through the darkness with his light.

Larissa Traquair (18:14.368)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (18:24.971)

Hmm.

Ginger Harrington (18:32.947)

Well, and I can't help but think that the Lord gave you the title from this book from being in a situation like that with people. mean, that's just incredible.

Jenn (18:44.066)

Well, yes, the first earthquake I responded to was in Nepal and being in a village that I had been to before and seeing it no longer a village but in rubble and seeing people just desperate for hope. They were all lined outside and they had heard I was coming to help and to bring them hope. And I remember seeing the church, which Nepal is a closed nation, not many believers, but there was a church in this village and it was in rubble. But at the

I got down on my knees and I'm weeping and I'm like, Lord, where is the hope here? Where is the hope that they're asking me to bring? And I look among the rubble and I see a bent up, broken down, had been on the top of the church cross amongst the rubble. And the Lord said to me, there's always hope beneath any rubble and it is the cross. And that is the thing that guides me into any suffering is that is the foundation I can cling to that he suffered.

Larissa Traquair (19:34.303)

Hmm.

Jenn (19:42.442)

and he understands.

Larissa Traquair (19:44.588)

Amen. So, Hope Beneath the Rubble is such a powerful title and you did share what sounds like the heart of the book, but is there anything more that you would love to share that really led you to write this book? And then also, do you hope readers discover within these pages?

Jenn (20:05.666)

Well, I didn't want to write the book, Larissa. Let's be honest. I wanted to write a book that's fun. I want to write a book that's fun. I'm funny. I like to laugh. like, I don't want to write about trauma. But I love people and I have seen people that are desperate. Whether I've seen across the world, like I said, 58 countries, many of them have no access to anything that would be a tool as to how to process trauma. To also the church ladies.

Larissa Traquair (20:08.811)

Okay, good, let's be...

Larissa Traquair (20:13.917)

You are. You are.

Jenn (20:34.614)

that think it's a sin to struggle and don't know what to do. So they're paralyzed in fight, flight, freezer, fawn. And I just kept seeing their faces and hearing their stories. And I just thought I have to give them tools so that they don't feel stuck forever or shamed for where they are. And then also I wrote the book for me. Like I needed these tools. I mean, I realized as I was working on this book all the different traumas I had experienced. I'm like,

this is good for me too. So I think it was the faces and the stories of the people that whether they were in a Sunday school class in the Bible Belt of Tennessee or whether they were in the third world, they were all asking some of the same questions. Will I ever be normal again? What is normal and what is my new normal? And that's why I wrote the

Larissa Traquair (21:06.133)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (21:28.415)

Wow, I love that. And you bring up such a great point. One of the greatest lessons I've learned over the last four years in therapy, I went to therapy because of my grief, because of Bill's death and all that we went through before he died. And out of that has come the trauma that I sustained or that I endured over the years. And so it's kind of broken open all of this stuff. And though it's been painful,

It's also been so healing. So I love that you brought that up. And one thing I really appreciate is how clearly you name what trauma actually does to us. You've talked about that emotionally, physically, and spiritually. And you're very real about both the fun stuff in life and then also the really hard. So I appreciate that.

Jenn (22:08.395)

Mm.

Jenn (22:14.956)

Hmm.

Jenn (22:20.798)

Well, I want it to be invitational because and also to not just provide pat answers because I think that that's what we want to do as humans because we want to help and so it feels easier to just say here's the pat answer to your trauma and your suffering. But what I've learned is to ask God to help me be a container for someone's suffering.

where it's just they can unload it and then what I have to do is then take it to the Lord and give it to him. But I wanted to be a container, an invitation, but also, okay, I'm going to let you give a place to unload this, but here's one tiny step tomorrow you can take, or today, right now, to continue to find that new normal. So that's why I really want it to be invitational and not a here's your answer, do this.

Ginger Harrington (23:16.33)

That's so good. And what a beautiful picture of for someone who's walking alongside someone and we'll come, we'll come unpack that a little bit more a little later in the interview, but Jen, for listeners who may not even realize that what they're experiencing is trauma. And, and, and we don't, I'm not necessarily saying that from the perspective of, let's go look for trauma under every rock, you know, but

How do you help people recognize the impact that trauma has had on their lives without making them feel broken or overwhelmed?

Jenn (23:54.563)

I think in some ways we've all, well I know we all gone through collective trauma worldwide in 2020. But I do think it's hard for people to know, I use the word trauma? that, oftentimes we compare our traumas to somebody else, mine's not big enough. And so where I like to start is more starting to look at when you're triggered, I call it a stress trigger, that could be actually

Larissa Traquair (24:01.01)

Yes.

Jenn (24:23.49)

pointing towards something deeper than just a stress that maybe was a trauma to you. And what may have been a trauma to me may not have been a trauma to you. To acknowledge that too, the freedom to say, to not expect that it is a trauma to someone or to expect it isn't. But for me, I encourage people and myself to begin to notice, okay, are you having a day when something small creates a big something in you? Feeling, response.

Larissa Traquair (24:32.478)

Yes.

Jenn (24:52.98)

and pay attention to that. And that usually means that you have had a trigger of some sort and then you've gone into that fight flight freezer fawn mode. And we all have our typical modes. I am a freezer in that I do really well in high stress situations and emergencies. I'm very good. And then later realize, that was scary. And I'm just kind of freeze. But my twin sister's a fighter. She's gonna fight. That's gonna be her, you know.

reaction. So beginning to look, I just ask people start noticing when you have a big reaction to something without shaming yourself and then kind of trace back hmm wonder why I'm in fight flight freezer fawn or if I am and sometimes that's just normal you know. God gave us those reactions for a reason like um but sometimes it's because there's something deeper underneath.

Ginger Harrington (25:50.443)

Well, that sense of normalizing the trauma response feels so important to be able to recognize that, we've all experienced some things that trigger us. And instead of running for them or ignoring them, or I'm sure sometimes it's easy to say, well, that's just the way I am. I just get anxious in that situation, or I just blow my cool when this happens. And we just kind of slough it off and.

keep marching forward and you know that does get us through life but it it doesn't help us to be healthy emotionally and spiritually and oftentimes relationally.

Jenn (26:24.802)

Well, and you may find yourself not realizing, I'm stuck in fight mode all the time. our bodies, those are supposed to be our survival moments, but not our thrive in life all the time moments.

Ginger Harrington (26:42.032)

Absolutely. Well, just I can't remember if we're going to ask you this later in the podcast, but it just seems to fit right here. Explain to us what's happening. You've said fight, flight, survival mode. Explain to us what's happening physically and physiologically in the body that this is not a response that we need to stay in. What's happening?

Jenn (27:08.296)

Mm-hmm. Well to not go into all the scientific and boring with the the jargon and the names and all the things out the basic way to explain it is basically the way God made our brain and our bodies to work is when you sense a danger of any sort then you go from kind of I call it the thinking brain to the non thinking brain to all the sudden everything in your body is flooding survive survive survive whether that's emotional survival physical survival and I describe it as

So I go with my sister to pick up her kids in the pickup line at school, just for fun every day. And the pickup line at school is wild. I mean, it's every man for himself. is survival and it's fitness. Your cars are coming from everywhere, trying to get their kids. And it's just, it's interesting. And there is a traffic cop that tells you when to go and when to stop and what to do. And sometimes I don't understand his signals. I'm like, am I supposed to go or stop?

And what happens is, in a survival situation or in trauma, the way our body responds, your heart will race. If you're a fighter, your heart will race. If you're a freezer, you might find yourself all of a sudden just feeling like you can't even move, like you're in blocks of cement, depending on which response you have. But you'll feel it in your body. And that is...

Larissa Traquair (28:26.569)

Yeah.

Jenn (28:33.506)

a almost like a traffic cop of our body, to stop and deal with the situation right then without having to think, survive. But we can't live that way all the time. We have to find ways to release that, to move forward. Otherwise, we'll just stay stuck. And so we have to get our other traffic cop part working in our brains. Where do we move from the part that's just like, just survive to the part that's, let's do higher executive functions?

Larissa Traquair (28:54.687)

Yeah.

Jenn (29:01.135)

So that's a really non-scientific way to explain it, just because I think it's fascinating how it works.

Larissa Traquair (29:07.858)

Yeah, that's so good and thank you for explaining that because that's, I can remember that example of a traffic cop for sure. So Jen, you beautifully integrate faith with trauma-informed care. How do you talk about God's presence in healing without rushing the process or offering spiritual platitudes as you've referenced that can sometimes hurt more than help?

Jenn (29:31.794)

I just always go back to the the God is with you and if they have no concept of God I I just say I am here to remind you there's a good this is what I always say there is a God in heaven who sees you who knows you who loves you and has not forgotten you and I stop there because if they don't know God then me being there can be a picture later to remind them unless they ask questions and they often do

Larissa Traquair (29:58.729)

Yeah.

Jenn (30:00.578)

But for someone that does know God, I remind them that He's big enough for all of the feelings and He welcomes them. I mean think about Jesus weeping to the point of blood because He didn't ask God to take this cup from me in the Garden of Gethsemane. And that same Jesus understands when you wrestle and understands your suffering. And I describe it too like if you have... When I lived in Nepal...

Larissa Traquair (30:17.565)

Yeah.

Jenn (30:30.644)

Years and years and years ago, I was in a motorcycle wreck and I was so excited to be on the back of that motorcycle because it was with a handsome fella that I really thought, you know, this is romantic. And then he wrecked us accidentally and I ended up getting kind of a gaping wound on my knee. And the thing is, I just wanted to put a bandaid on it because that felt better than actually cleaning the wound out. And sometimes we can do that with scripture.

where we don't want to acknowledge and wrestle with the depths of what's underneath. And so we're like, I'm just going to say Romans 8 28, which is truth and powerful. But sometimes we need to wrestle with God for the healing, clean the wound out, and then remember the power of the scripture.

Larissa Traquair (31:01.821)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (31:18.849)

Amen. Wow, that's definitely a visual as well and such a great reminder. So I think so many of our listeners resonate with this tension of wanting to trust God while also feeling stuck in survival mode. So I know that's going to be really helpful, both the pictures and your words.

Jenn (31:39.575)

Well, and the thing about the streets in Nepal, they're dirty. And if I hadn't cleaned it out, like infection comes and eventually it shows itself, you know? And that's what trauma to, if we don't process the trauma, eventually it's going to come out. And that's why I want this book as a tool. I've learned for myself, because like I said, my personality, I just want to have fun. I would ignore that there's hard things, but even in my own personal life, I've had to process. Okay, Jen.

Larissa Traquair (31:45.234)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (32:03.187)

Yeah.

Jenn (32:08.832)

I mean, and take these practical tools. Like for example, I was in a really, really bad car accident in the rain, almost killed the person I hit. I went across the interstate, multiple times spinning, hit someone head on. And so in the rain driving was so hard for me. It was a trauma and I would have flashbacks and feel paralyzed. And so I had to use the smallest tools available to us in that, okay, I mean, when I'm having this flashback.

Larissa Traquair (32:21.192)

Wow.

Larissa Traquair (32:26.077)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn (32:37.506)

I'm going to have sour candy to, cause it'll taste brings you to the present. Very small. And so the book has a lot of those practical, you know, or roll the window down to feel wind on your skin or hold a cup of something warm, you know, to get out of that fight, fight, freeze, fawn mode. So there's a lot of tools that God gave us.

Larissa Traquair (32:41.807)

Mmm, that's good.

Ginger Harrington (33:00.581)

Well, you just jumped into my next topic. I wanted to talk about you just gave us one small one. Give us some more we want to really One provide great value in this interview in and of itself that there are some takeaway things that people can take away from this and put into practice like right now and then other Also, we wanted to you know, get the your book into the hands of those who need it So walk us through a few more of those. That was good

Larissa Traquair (33:30.504)

Yeah.

Jenn (33:31.299)

Well, I think there's just so many practical things like if you're stuck in one of those fight-flight freezer-fond Very simply when you start to notice you're being triggered going on a walk is huge for what it does in your brain and body It just about bilateral movement The getting outside that what trauma does is it tries to get stuck in your body? So I love practical things that are free to like you can go on a walk

If you feel stuck or limited by a flashback or you just feel that trauma was triggered in some way, doing five pausing and putting yourself in the present moment and grounding by here's five things I see and describing it. Four things, and you can do whatever order.

It's usually easy to find five things you can see versus five things you can taste. But if you're, you know, in your fridge, you pick, you pick. But five things you can see, four things you can touch, three things that you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. And getting yourself, it just calms and lowers the cortisol in your body. Or even in the book, there's very practical ways of how do you, if you have a trauma story,

Larissa Traquair (34:35.901)

Hmm.

Jenn (34:49.13)

Of course, therapy is amazing. I'm big on that, but you can't always afford it or get to it. How do you tell your story in a way that helps the brain process in a safe way? Say you had a specific event. So it talks about that in the book. How do you move through the event to process safely? There's breathing is huge. If you just close your eyes and you

Larissa Traquair (34:51.803)

Yes.

Jenn (35:15.424)

You can do square breathing where you inhale for four, five or six, however big your lungs are. And then you hold it for that same count and then release it for that same count. It just lowers the hormones of stress in your body. And it gets you out of that fight flight scenario where you're really not using your thinking brain.

Larissa Traquair (35:42.215)

Yeah, that's so good. And what I love is you keep saying, it's free. And also we can do this in public, most of these things, without anyone ever knowing. So you can be in the middle of Costco, let's say, and you can stop and you're not gonna seem crazy or abnormal if you're trying to do some of these things that help. And especially the candy one, that's my favorite. I love the candy.

Jenn (36:05.09)

I love when you can do those things when you have a moment of trigger and then you can also do those things every day to just keep your a sense of your body being stable and so maybe walking not for to like Make sure you're burning the calories but walking mindfully praying enjoying Doing exercise movement of some sort is really big for your body to Get out of that survival mode

journaling. There's just amazing ways God made us to heal and science the backseat. Isn't that amazing?

Larissa Traquair (36:43.399)

Yes.

Larissa Traquair (36:48.904)

All right, Ginger, were you done with your part and I'm moving on? Okay. Okay. So Jen, in the book, you emphasize small steady steps toward healing rather than quick fixes, and we've covered some of those. What does that look like practically for someone who feels emotionally exhausted or overwhelmed and even something like remembering to grab candy or even going for a walk can be almost too big?

Ginger Harrington (36:51.743)

Yeah, you just hop on into the next one.

Jenn (37:16.178)

Mm-hmm. I think I always This is not necessarily, you know wasn't in my counseling training, but it's I when I had a counseling practice My first thing I started with with clients was not why are you here or what is your? Trauma diet. Let's dive in. I would ask them the question. What makes you come alive? And so I would challenge anyone listening right now that feels

Larissa Traquair (37:39.4)

Hmm.

Jenn (37:43.011)

It's too big to try even breathing or walking or I just don't know where to start. Ask yourself what makes me come alive. And if you can't even come up with something, get a magazine. This is one of my favorite things to have people do and just cut out what sticks out to you. Whatever word, whatever picture, it gets your juices flowing as, this makes me come alive. And I would challenge someone, do one thing that you can do that makes you come alive because that...

will begin to give you a little spark of life is here. Life is here. And that may be buying a new coffee mug, trying a new coffee. It can be the simplest tiny thing and it'd be very specific to you. But that's where I always start with my clients before we dive into the problem is, and maybe that's partially my personality, but I'm telling you, I saw it transform people over and over and over again. So that's what I would say. And that's like a extra free.

Larissa Traquair (38:14.012)

Hmm.

Jenn (38:37.026)

advice here because that's not even in the book. that's a secret advice for just your listeners.

Larissa Traquair (38:40.858)

Well, thank you.

Ginger Harrington (38:47.583)

That reminds me of, in my book, Holy in the Moment, I tell the story of how I ended up with Graves' disease right in the middle of a cross-country move. And that became very traumatic for me because I didn't sleep for almost three months and the anxiety was out the roof. And I just thought like I was going crazy because I knew there was no reason other than the fact that I had Graves' disease.

for me to be feeling this way. And when your life is imploding and you can't even put your, there's no reason for it other than this name on a diagnosis kind of thing. And so when I was navigating that before it was treated and I was starting to feel better, one of the things that I did was like, you know, like where can I find joy in this moment? And I had little children at the time and I just really tried to enjoy.

The simplest thing of reading my daughter a story, know sitting on my lap or I would try to plan something, you know each week plan something that would be fun and And that was it was actually really helpful and it's not quite the exact thing that you're talking about But I think that was my way of doing what you're talking about and I think it's helpful for listeners to To kind of get a feel for maybe what that looks like

Jenn (39:58.187)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (40:09.322)

Mm-hmm.

Ginger Harrington (40:15.595)

You know when you're talking about some of these things and we start to put flesh on it with experiences and stories So hopefully that's helpful for somebody But thank you for sharing those because those are so practical so practical and I got lost what question are we?

Jenn (40:20.609)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (40:29.346)

Hmm.

Larissa Traquair (40:34.51)

You're so you're on I want to say question seven but seven is in there twice for caregivers and supporters.

Ginger Harrington (40:41.183)

Okay. All right. So, you know, we're talking about some of these practical tools and that healing is one step at a time. And, know, sometimes I was the caretaker for my sister while she was battling ALS and then, with her as she passed away. And that was, that was traumatic. so sometimes being a caregiver involves a level of trauma in and of itself.

Jenn (41:03.5)

Mm.

Jenn (41:09.526)

Mm-hmm.

Ginger Harrington (41:11.099)

And you're also trying to support and help someone who is going in process with trauma as they whatever they're needing care for. And so you kind of have this dual thing happening and let's talk about support for caregivers for a moment.

Jenn (41:15.094)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (41:31.171)

Well, and vicarious trauma is a huge thing. It can be just as impactful. Caring for someone or watching someone go through a trauma can impact people just as deeply or sometimes even more deeply. So I just want to remind your listeners to really honor that not to compare trauma or be like, but this wasn't my trauma. I'm just the caregiver. There's never, I'm just the...

Just to really acknowledge you are valuable and matter and I think about how I just read in Genesis about the story of Abraham and his having Hagar as kind of a bad plan. Just read Genesis and read up on it. It's like a reality TV show. But Hagar has this child and she's alone in the wilderness.

Larissa Traquair (42:19.484)

Yes.

Jenn (42:28.258)

and caring for this child, wondering how to, what do I do? And God shows up as the God who sees. And I think for a caregiver, the first thing you need to know, because you're often doing behind the scenes things and feeling very unseen, you know, people may not even notice or think about the fact that it's trauma for you. So I just want to speak to the caregiver that you are seeing. You're not forgotten.

There is a God who sees you and and that it's OK to let a few safe people see you and to say, I'm tired, I'm worn out, I'm angry. I, you know, and it can really be hard to selflessly put your life on the line for someone else. And so I think. That's what I want to say is that you are seen, you're not forgotten and.

Ginger Harrington (43:17.769)

Yes.

Ginger Harrington (43:23.883)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (43:25.662)

and the practical steps of breathing and walking and may feel selfish, but it's important to do self-care.

Ginger Harrington (43:35.496)

Absolutely. And let's dig into that a little bit more because I've got several dear friends who are in caretaking situations. And like for me, when I was in a caretaking situation, I had the sweetest moments with my sister. And the Lord really used that to just do beautiful things in our relationship. But I have a couple of friends who, the people that they are called to care for,

aren't real nice, not very appreciative. And that adds a whole nother layer of hard and probably traumatic to that. So let's talk for just a moment and encourage the caregiver who is really not fun.

Jenn (44:07.394)

Hmm.

Jenn (44:24.93)

I feel I can speak to this with experience. I just went through a caregiving season that was horrific and ended pretty badly, pretty traumatically for me and I won't go into all the details on here. So I have such compassion and heart for the person that is walking through that. And I will say to you that often there's a sense of shame

or the feelings that you may have of anger or resentment or...

guilt or just so much shame. And so I would say take that shame first to the Lord. And because shame is too heavy of a weight to carry while carrying someone else. And I would encourage you that Jesus carried the cross for you. And so take that shame and throw it on him and see what he does and journal and pray openly and honestly. And then I would encourage you to find a buddy that you can share with.

Larissa Traquair (45:07.079)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (45:11.451)

Yeah.

Jenn (45:31.267)

that's a safe space for you because you can't keep it all inside. And so find a container that you can pour out and say, I don't need answers. I don't need platitudes. I don't need scripture. Maybe you need scripture, but I don't need, know, I just need to share my heart and be that be a safe place that's held. That's what I would encourage you to, and sometimes we have to tell people that because they, they're going to want to come in with the

the fix it ideas, but that may not be fixable right then. And so what you really need is someone just to hold your suffering with you.

Larissa Traquair (46:02.747)

Right.

Ginger Harrington (46:08.364)

That is such a beautiful thing. Sometimes we just need to have this held. I want to, because we're on this, I want to loop back to when you were talking about when you're walking alongside people in trauma, you become a container for that trauma. And then when later you, or maybe in the moment, you're bringing that to the Lord. Let's talk just a little bit more about that because I think no matter

whether or not someone that we are with is walking through trauma. This is a concept of being Jesus with hands and feet in the moment. And some of our most powerful moments with people who are hurting are going to be this. And so we all need to understand this concept and then how to not just hold it and let it be weight inside of us that begins to become trauma.

Jenn (46:56.193)

Mm.

Ginger Harrington (47:06.604)

but we're able to let it flow through to where the Lord really is like a conduit of inviting the Lord into this. I know that this one of the friends that I was talking about a moment ago, when I was so sick and just so exhausted, she would call me every week and she would listen to me and she would say, it's not gonna stay this way. so that...

Jenn (47:10.209)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (47:32.386)

Mm.

Ginger Harrington (47:35.358)

She was that container for me in that moment and I was really appreciative of that. So let's dig into that a little bit.

Jenn (47:42.955)

I think, Larissa, you're so good at intentional things. Intentional gratitude is your thing. Grateful chick. And I think with this, you have to be intentional and make a plan when you know that you're holding someone's suffering. And so for me, people often ask, how do I go from seeing the awful things I see when I travel? I mean, I see the worst of the worst, the poorest of the poor. And how do you go from that back into your normal life? And I have just had to make a plan.

Larissa Traquair (47:46.887)

Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (48:09.809)

Yeah.

Jenn (48:12.246)

That's specific to me and yours is gonna be different, but how do I, here's the things I do to anchor back. And a lot of it goes back to my coming alive list. So I do think that's key. I mean, I named my ministry Coming Alive Ministries because I think I just need to know that to transition well, here are the things that I need to do to pour back into me. And then also here's my prayer plan. I need to specifically know how to...

Larissa Traquair (48:25.062)

Yeah.

Jenn (48:40.788)

I've got, I'm a writer downer in my prayers because I'm not good at, I lose focus. And so I have pages and pages and years and years of journals where I've just poured out what was poured into me. And then that's a physical act of releasing to me to pray and write it down. So that's my plan, but the listener's plan may be different, but you got a plan. That's what I would say, very specifically when you know that you're in the middle of.

walking with a friend through a tough time or in a ministry situation, have that intentional, okay, here's what I'm gonna do to release.

Ginger Harrington (49:15.07)

Mm-hmm. Thank you. That is that is so helpful and Larissa and I are both part of the military community and and this conversation is just bringing this to mind There are so many people in the military community both the active duty member and oftentimes family members because their spouse or loved one is is experiencing post-traumatic stress and

let's talk about that for just a second. Let's encourage the person who has seen those awful things or had to participate in awful things. And obviously we're not gonna heal them in this moment, but what's a word of encouragement for the family that is struggling with PTSD?

Jenn (49:47.67)

Mm-hmm.

Jenn (50:00.191)

I think the word for really anyone that I wanna encourage is just be a noticer without shame. It's so easy for us to shame ourselves. Like I should just be a support for this person with PTSD and it shouldn't impact me. Well, it probably does impact you though. And giving yourself permission and freedom to grieve that, to process that. So I think the key for all of us is to be noticers without shame.

and pay attention. And it's much easier to want to get busy, to want to pretend it's not there. I mean, I've done all of those things. So I'm not speaking to someone from the, you know, the high and lofty. I'm like, no, I understand. I'd much rather eat a whole pan of brownies than admit that I'm actually sad today because I have some post-traumatic stress of seeing dead bodies piled up after an earthquake, you know? Or I have some post-traumatic stress from just hearing horrific stories.

Larissa Traquair (50:53.989)

Yeah.

Jenn (51:01.226)

or watching a friend go through something. So I too have had to learn the power in noticing without shame. And that's where I would say start is just notice, pay attention, ask yourself maybe at the end of the day, how am I feeling in my body? What's my heart rate? I mean, these fancy watches will tell us a lot of things. And am I feeling numb? I, how, just checking in without shame is such a key to unlocking.

getting out of, whether you're the person in the trauma or the person watching and walking alongside the trauma, we still go into those places of survival mode. And when you can unlock the key and notice, okay, that served me then, but it doesn't need to say stuck in me now. How do I observe that?

Larissa Traquair (51:50.085)

Yeah, that's so good. just real quick, Jen, how much time do we have with you? I want to make sure we honor that. I had one more question, but I want to close us up if we need to.

Jenn (52:00.994)

one more question is good. Yeah.

Larissa Traquair (52:02.777)

Okay.

Ginger Harrington (52:03.436)

Let's change that question because she really did just encourage the listeners.

Larissa Traquair (52:08.42)

Okay. I wasn't. Okay, go ahead. I wasn't going to ask that one, but go ahead. What were you thinking? Well, I she's, she's brought up journaling and, like kind of using art and crafting and then having a plan. just was going to kind of come back to that. But if you have something else, I can do that instead. Okay. And then we'll, okay. All right. So, so Jen, one of the things I love that you're talking about practically, but resonates with me and some of our listeners who are very creative.

Ginger Harrington (52:12.556)

what was it?

Ginger Harrington (52:24.394)

No, no, no, no, go for it. Go for it.

Larissa Traquair (52:37.51)

Also, you've talked about journaling. We've got a lot of people who journal and Ginger and I both journal a lot in different ways. And we've got some episodes on journaling as well. And then you've talked about a plan. And I love all of those because they are like, as we say with journaling, taking pen to paper, but maybe share just a little idea of what that looks like for you when it comes to journaling. You've talked a little bit about that, but you also talked about like cutting out pictures in a magazine. And I know for...

for so much of my life, crafting and being creative is the way that the Lord has helped me connect with others and has helped me build communities. And this isn't just for fun, though it is, and I love that and I would love to have you at one of our fun events because you would just be such a great addition. But it's not just that, it's very practical and the Lord can use it. So maybe just speak to that a little bit as we start to wrap up.

Jenn (53:29.25)

Mm.

Jenn (53:34.037)

I love that, Larissa. I love following your Instagram and seeing all your crafty things. And it's funny, I'm not actually good at crafts, but I find it helpful to, I think, again, as we started the episode, we'll close the episode with a reminder of song 139, we're fearfully and wonderfully made, each of us. And so there are listeners that need to be dusting out their scissors and their glue and just embracing their crayons.

Larissa Traquair (53:37.35)

You're so sweet. Thank you.

Jenn (54:02.824)

And that God can heal parts of your brain as you color and meditate and pray and slow your fight, fight, please are fun in that way. Journaling, there's a lot of journaling prompts. The book has every chapter has hard work that you can do because it can help what's stuck in here get out there. But some people are like, that's the last thing I wanna do. So I wanna speak to you too. Maybe you're an active person and you need to go on a vigorous hike.

Larissa Traquair (54:19.237)

Yay.

Larissa Traquair (54:24.474)

Yeah.

Jenn (54:32.902)

and connect with a person and share your story with them or pray out loud or take pictures along the way. Do the way that you function, but it's so important to get your story out from your body. And these are very practical ways that we can do it because of the way we're made. so yeah, writing, journaling.

One of my favorite ways to start a new year, even though I'm not crafty, is to cut out a vision board with pictures and, you know, cut and paste and then remember that, going back to that. even if there's counseling techniques where if you need, you become elevated in your stress because of retelling your trauma or reliving your trauma, that they encourage you to even picture a scene.

that feels safe to you. So if you're artsy, get out your paints and paint the scene. And then you have something to look back on. One of the therapeutic techniques is to make a grounding box with things that center you, calm you. And maybe that grounding box is full of art supplies. And so it's just practical. I love that God made us in such a way that we can practically connect our brain, heart, mind and body. He's amazing.

Larissa Traquair (55:56.784)

He is. Amen. Yes.

Ginger Harrington (55:56.834)

He is. Jinx one, two, three. I think that's the first time we've ever done that on this podcast.

Larissa Traquair (56:04.793)

I think so too, yeah.

Jenn (56:06.442)

I love it.

Ginger Harrington (56:08.353)

Jennifer, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your joy, your compassion, and your hope with us today. This conversation, this is an important conversation and it has been such a gift. And I know that this is gonna meet so many folks right where they are. And we just praise God for that and ask him to just draw the people who need to hear this to hear the episode.

read the article on the website and get your book. So friends, if today's conversation has resonated with you, I really deeply wanna encourage you to connect with Jen, explore her book, Hope Beneath the Rubble, Healing After Trauma. You'll find links for Jen's book, the website, social platforms, in the show notes. Whether you're walking your own healing journey or supporting someone else,

Jenn (56:57.814)

Mm.

Ginger Harrington (57:04.171)

This is a resource that you can return to again and again, both for the encouragement and all the practical ideas. And friends, if this episode has spoken to you, please consider sharing it with a friend who might need this episode as well. Don't keep the good to yourself, share it and we'll get that word out. Jen, anything else you want to say before we close?

Jenn (57:07.618)

Mm.

Jenn (57:11.34)

Yeah.

Jenn (57:22.626)

Hmm.

Jenn (57:31.179)

Well, what an honor to be with you and I am just asking God to give your listeners a little extra habit of hope to put in as they listen to this podcast. Maybe today they learned one extra tool to be a habit of hope. And I do want to also add if you do get the book in the back as a QR code, make sure you link.

or take the fancy picture of it, you know? And it goes to a link with free video teachings and amazing. My publisher helped me. We developed these beautiful resources that will help you with practical tools on these very things we talked about. there's journaling throughout the book, but if you, with this QR code, there is some really amazing free resources that come along with it. So I'd love for you to not miss that part.

Ginger Harrington (58:18.547)

thank you for telling us that. Absolutely super important. Well, Jenn would you close us out in prayer when praying for our listeners?

Jenn (58:26.498)

God, thank you so much for the listeners of Habits of Hope and I pray today that they remember one, that they are fearfully and wonderfully made, two, by a God who sees them, who knows them, who loves them, and who has not forgotten them. And I pray that today they leave with a sense of renewed hope and that whatever story they are holding in them, that you hold them.

And I just pray your encouragement and courage to take the next step in the next step of habit of hope. Thank you for this time in Jesus name, amen.

Larissa Traquair (59:04.001)

Amen.

Ginger Harrington (59:04.279)

Well, Jen, thank you so much for joining us and helping us remember that hope does not mean forgetting what you've been through. It means discovering that God is still present, steady, compassionate, and near. One gentle step at a time, hope can be uncovered again. Thanks, friends, for listening to the Habits of Hope podcast. And as we wrap up, remember this, your trauma does not define you, hope does.

What you've been through does not get the final word. Your story is still being written and hope is your best habit.