52. How To Build A Disciple Making Movement In Next Gen Ministry with Vick Greene

You can run every event on the calendar and still feel like discipleship is slipping through your fingers. That tension is at the heart of this conversation with Vic Green, co-author of Movement Ready Church. 

Chuck and Vick dig into a hard but freeing idea: disciple making is not a button you press, and it is not a program you tack on. A disciple-making movement starts with spiritual renewal. Vic explains why “every movement starts by not moving,” and we unpack what it looks like to step off the treadmill, trade self-reliance for prayerful dependence, and lead from the overflow of your relationship with Jesus. If you care about Gen Z ministry and Generation Alpha ministry, this is the foundation you cannot skip.

If you’re ready to rebuild your discipleship plan around renewal, culture, and clarity, listen now, then subscribe, share this with a fellow next gen leader, and leave a review so more churches can find it. What’s one ministry “scoreboard” you’re ready to change?

SHOW LINKS: 

The Movement-Ready Church

Connect with Lifeway Next Gen Ministry 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Marks Matter

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We are here to help you understand the unique cultural needs of Gen Z and Generation Alpha. I'm your host, Chuck Peters, and I'm so glad you're here today. This is the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. We are going to talk today with a new friend of mine, Vic Green, who is the CEO at Replicate Ministries and the author of a new book that's about multiplying disciples within your ministry. Here at EtchWe in at Lifeway, we believe that ministry isn't just about the moments we create, it's about the marks that we leave. And in Next Gen Ministry, those marks show up in our kids, our students, our volunteers, and families long after camp ends, after VBS is over, when the lights go down, when graduation comes. And honestly, in next gen ministry, it's often the busiest place in the church. We are running hard. We are at a pace that may not be sustainable. Our ministry is the loudest, it's the most creative, it's also the most exhausting. And so, guys, in it, and all that activity and all the busyness that we uh focus on day to day, it can be easy for us to lose sight of what really matters. And that is, it's not about our programs, it's about the people. It's it's about making disciples. And so making disciples isn't uh uh the result, uh, it's not the output of a lever that we pull or a button that we press. It's much bigger than that. It's something that only comes from the Lord. And we're gonna talk today about how we can create the right environment, the right conditions for discipleship to thrive within our next gen space. So join me now as we have this great conversation with our new friend Vic Green, talking about how we can make disciples. Listeners, my friend Vic Green is here. We've just met recently, but we've

Discipleship As The Church’s Core

SPEAKER_01 2:05

hit it off so well with common passions and desires for the church and for what it is that we need to accomplish through our churches, through our next gen ministries in particular. Guys, our goal has to be more than entertainment in uh in education, uh, even in engagement. It has to be built around making disciples, right? The Great Commission is about making disciples. And so, yes, we need to connect with kids, we need to engage with them, but all of that, those are not the goal. Those are a means to the end of creating disciples, training up children and students to be spiritually mature adults. And so, while most of us, I would say Vic would say that the purpose of our ministries is to create disciples. I also think that a lot of us are kind of just doing what we've always done and hoping that it happens. We may not have a strategic approach uh to how to get there. And I know as we talk, you're gonna say it's not just strategy, there's more than that. So I want to dive in, Vic, to talk about how what is it about discipleship that makes it more of a movement than a strategy when it's done right?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, absolutely. I think when you think about discipleship, uh ultimately it's not a ministry in the church, it's the ministry of the church. And so when we look back to as Jesus started his early church, like we talk about often we want to make Christ's final words our church's first work. And so making disciples is not just a strategy, it's not a new program that you offer. Ultimately, it is the core purpose of the church. And so, in everything we do, that's what we're called to. And so it's far more than just okay, what is the strategy we put in place or a new ministry, a new tactic, a new curriculum. Yeah. This conversation around discipleship and making disciples is about getting the church back to its core purpose and making sure that that core purpose is driving anything and everything we do.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

So, yeah, so this so it's more than just having this uh discipleship program, right? Where discipleship is a thing, it's an action that we take, it's an overflow of who we are. And so it's so much more about creating the the conditions for discipleship than for pressing the button, right? It's this is not a vending machine. We don't uh, you know, put in the coins and pull the lever, push the button to get what we're looking for here and let's create disciples. We do this, this, and that. It's it's more about inviting that movement of God.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Right. Yeah. As you look at it, I think often pastors you'll say and and ministry leaders, like we all kind of look and say, yeah, we know discipleship is important. We know that we should be making disciples, and yet there's a gap. Yeah. If you look all the in Lifeway recently did a study where it's like 99% of churches say that discipleship is important, like we need to be about making disciples. Yes. And I think it was less than 10%. Uh, I can't remember the exact number, less than 10% said they actually have a plan that's working well. Yes. One that they're pre that that they're confident in. And so there's just this massive gap in churches where it's we know that it's that it's something we should be doing, we just don't know how. And and that's where when we walk alongside churches, we often see that churches are missing certain key ingredients that help bring that to life, that help them create a plan that works to actually see disciple making happen the way that they intend. Because what I believe is ultimately that Jesus' words to the early church in Matthew 28 of make disciples and the principles that you see in the early church of Acts, I believe those principles and those patterns are accessible to us today. It'll look different. It's a unique time that you're in, just as it was a unique time as the early church was forming.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

And so, but I think that God's intention was that every church lead a disciple-making movement. It's gonna look unique to your church, and that'll look different than the church down the road, it'll look different than the early church, but it'll carry some of those core principles that help you see a movement come to life, just like we see in early church of Acts, where you see just that the church is developing people who are making disciples that are making disciples. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yes, that's exactly it, right? And so that's where we want to get. And I believe that when those churches answer that survey, you're right, that lifeway research is really compelling. Uh and you can find that at lifewayresearch.com. Listeners, if you want to check that out, LifeWay Research is a great resource, uh, very similar to Barna Research, where we do uh surveys and research of the culture and of the church to find out what the state uh or condition is of the church and the culture. And so this recent study has shown, yes, we as churches, I believe, Vic, we have the right heart. I just don't think that we all know how to accomplish what it is that we say we want to accomplish. And so oftentimes we find ourselves just sort of doing what we do, right? We we run the play, we have service at this time, Bible study at that time. Uh, we do this, you know, this sort of uh uh of a midweek experience. We plan camps and mission trips and things again in the next gen space. Uh and we hope that those things generate disciples. And yet we also know the statistics that, you know, the majority of kids will leave the church for a season after they leave high school, leave home. And so that's something that's a that is a heavy burden, right? We don't want to see that. We want to train up kids and students to walk with the Lord all through life uh into a spiritual mature to be spiritually mature adults. The goal of kids and student ministry is not to make better kids and not to make better students. The goal is to create godly adults. And so, in that, yes, there's strategy involved, there's things that we can do, but really, so you we've used this word movement a few times uh intentionally. So you have a uh a book that you've uh authored that uh co-authored with Robbie Gallaty, the movement ready church. And it really is all about this strategy, this approach. Maybe strategy isn't even the right word. I want to be careful to not not put that word uh in your mouth. I'll let you explain that. Uh, but to create conditions that truly set us up to generate disciples. Uh, and it may not be uh as much of a checklist as it is of a of a heart check and a culture check. And so you say as we as we uh talk, the things that we'll talk about today are are extracted from the book. And so listeners will point you towards that resource and put notes in the show notes of how you can find that book. Uh, you're gonna find it very valuable. Uh, but this was written to the larger church, but Vic uh has a heart for next gen ministry and for children's ministry, and he's gonna help us apply some of these principles today to our next gen ministries. But Vic, it starts with it starts with us, right? It's not so much a tactic or a play that we run, it starts with our hearts as leaders and the leadership of our church. And so take us there. How is our own spiritual renewal really foundational and uh necessary for this to happen?

Spiritual Renewal Starts The Movement

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah. So just kind of teeing that part up of spiritual renewal is the first piece of what it looks like to see a disciple-making movement in your church. The other two, and we can go wherever we want to go with the conversation, is disciple-making culture and organizational clarity.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Those three essential elements, uh, as we started to look. So with Replicate, we work with churches. Um, we've worked with thousands of churches over the last 18 years. And then us personally at our church and Robbie and his previous two churches, uh, we just began to look and say, man, what must be true for a disciple making movement to happen? And that's really what this would probably be one of the biggest learnings that we had, which we're talking about a spiritual renewal.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

So in the first 12 years or so, we were doing a lot of strategy and we were like, okay, let's get the plan, let's get the, let's whiteboard it, let's get all of our people on there, let's do leadership development. Yeah. And we're doing all these things. And if I'm honest, that's my natural bent. Like, I love strategy, I love tear sheets, I love whiteboards. That's what I do from. Yes. Yes, like we're on the same page, you know, like, and I that's my bent. I love to do that with leaders, and it has a place. And so the whole idea that hope is not a strategy. What I would flip is say, yes, but strategy can't be our greatest hope. If we put our hope in the strategy, we develop it's misplaced. And I think that was our journey. We were working with churches, we were helping them get a clarity in disciple making. We personally brought our playbook that we thought was going to work, and we put it in our new church, only to find that it didn't. And what the Lord had to do is he had to put us in a season of really uh of kind of of breaking us to the point where we had to be dependent on the Holy Spirit. And that's this idea for a disciple-making movement to happen, for disciple making to flourish in kids and uh in the next generation space. What must be true is what starts a movement is spiritual renewal. We say it this way every movement starts by not moving. Every movement starts by not moving. And so it is, we as leaders, we don't need to run to the whiteboard and to strategy to get momentum and to see a movement happen. A movement doesn't start in front of a whiteboard, but it starts on our knees in prayer as we're depending on the Holy Spirit of God, would you move? And so the first part of what starts, and then ultimately what sustains, what allows it to continue to keep going is spiritual renewal. If there must be in the leadership a desperation for more of God, and as the Holy Spirit starts to work through a people that are praying, that are dependent, much like Acts 1.8, wait for the Holy Spirit to come on you in power, then go to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. Just as Acts two happens there, there has to be a moment where we are desperate for more of God and dependent on his Holy Spirit. And as he does something in us, then he's able to prepare us so that he can do something through us.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And those things happen as an overflow of what's happening within us, right? You can't give what you don't have. And so we, as we try to connect kids and students into a deeper, closer, more intimate walk with the Lord over the long haul, we have to model that for them by living it at ourselves, right? And my concern is so many of us in in the next gen space are busy, running hard, right? To to program the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And we are driven by programs. Uh, and it becomes very business-like in a sense, right? We're running the playbook, we're we're following the programs, and we're looking to do the right things with the right, we have the right desires, but oftentimes we are spiritually depleted ourselves, right? We're giving out of empty buckets. We are not taking steps for uh, you know, for our own personal spiritual and emotional health. So that is really important that we that we find the bandwidth, that we find the margin to, like you said, that the movement starts by not moving. I want to hear a little bit more about what you mean by that. Does that just mean by we need to be still before the Lord and quiet?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, I think it starts with prayer. It starts with uh with being with God. I think you know, we talked about it in the book too, and what we learned in our story, Robbie was at a a place of burnout. And so he went to the porch and really it started in prayers of God, would you fix my church? But what the Holy Spirit began to show is like, no, you're the problem. You need more of me. And so then what started as really a personal renewal for him, what started in just prayer of God, I got I'm out of it. I've tried everything, it's not working. I need help. And what it formed is this desperation, this personal renewal that then spread to the team that spread to the church. And if is that that's what I'm looking for in a leader often is man, is there a desperation for more of God? Is there a dependence on God to move? Uh, and what that does is it puts a posture where we don't depend on our personality, our charisma, our leadership, and it puts a dependence of saying, God, we're gonna trust for you to move. And ultimately, a movement can't happen under you can't manufacture a movement. Yes. Like the Holy Spirit has to be working through his people. And so the culture change that you want, like it's just so easy, especially I would imagine many of us uh on the here listeners, um, they're maybe they're maybe not the one that has all the authority. They have a leader, an executive pastor, maybe they're leading a kid's students ministry. I think it's really easy to just complain about how things will never change, or to think that the problem is external. And it's like the change that you want starts in prayer. Yeah. And and and I think that's the big idea of every movement starts by not moving.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

And that right there is such a great call for many of us. We um, you know, I often talk about we're we're on the treadmill, right? We're we're running as fast as we can. The the speed gets cranked up, the the incline gets increased. And so we're running harder than ever, but we're not getting anywhere. And so we're expending a lot of energy. And so we can't mistake energy, you know, the expulsion of energy for movement. There's a difference, right? And so, boy, to step off the treadmill to step back, and I would imagine some of this is I just think through, you know, how what does it look like to pursue that desperation for the Lord? Part of it is I I can't do that while I'm running full speed and chasing after things. I have to step off the treadmill. I have to sit on the porch as Robbie did that that day and and listen to what God wants to do and and allow my heart to be soft towards him and to seek him with that desperation.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

I think I love that idea

Escaping The Programmed-Out Treadmill

SPEAKER_00 16:40

of the treadmill there. Like I think in one place, there's I gotta create the space for me personally. I think also what we see in the church so much, if if we think about the second idea of of what helps you see a disciple-making movement, the set of the disciple-making culture, what we see often is that churches are so busy executing programming and they're so busy, like Sunday's always coming, Wednesday's coming, and it's like, where else Christmas is coming, Easter's coming, VBS is coming, camp is coming. Yeah. It there are so many urgent and important things happening for a ministry leader. And I think what often happens is we get on that treadmill of executing the next program, the next event that has good things to it, yeah, but we don't slow down enough to say, is it actually developing disciples? Right. Is this actually getting us the results that we want? Most of the time, churches what what they express to us is they feel programmed out. They just every program they're doing, they're doing so many of them, and they're trusting it to be a silver bullet and it's under delivering. Or they're running from one to the next to the next, and they question, is this actually working? And with and in and I think that's the place that most of us find it. And I think my encouragement always is to slow down and say, hey, let's let's just not make let's make sure that just the amount of activity is not our metric for success.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

You know, we we say it this way the number one myth for churches that uh that holds them back and making disciples is the engagement myth. It's the belief that activity equals transformation. It's the belief if we are active, if our people are coming to all the events, then they're being transformed. And the caution to that is those are correlated. Yes, being active helps lead to transformation, but program activity does not equal personal transformation. And the reason we know that, we found it out the hard way. We found it through we we were looking at all the people that are active in our church, and the most active person in our church, he came to every worship service, small group, volunteer team, prayer nights, he listened to every sermon. I mean, this person was so active in our church. The problem is when he introduced himself, he said, Hi, my name's Scotty, and I'm an atheist. Wow. And what we realized in that moment is that our current way of measuring success, of saying, are we doing our job? Are we equipping the saints? Is this is a sex successful? Was are you active? How active are you? How many hours? How many events are you coming to? And what we realized is we had the wrong scoreboard. And so I think that's just my like encouragement. Many of us find ourselves programmed out and we're using activity as the metric of, am I doing my job right? Yeah. And I think there's a better question, there's a better way to assess that.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

And well, and for, you know, as an action uh-oriented person, and I think a lot of our leaders and listeners tend to be right, lead leaders tend to be doers, fixers, problem solvers. And so for me, I, you know, one of the questions that I wrestle with daily is am I doing enough? Am I doing enough for in my job? Am I doing enough in my ministry? What is there something more I could or should be doing? Because I do want to use my life up, right, in the service of the Lord. And so we have a lot of people out there who are kind of functioning in this uh, you know, American Western civilization mind. It's it's a Martha mindset, right? So I can't, as you were describing that move and start by not moving. I picture Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus while Martha is busy doing all these things. Yeah. And if I'm honest, if a lot of us are honest listeners, we are Martha in our ministries. We're busy, busy, busy doing all this stuff, and we may be missing the moment. The the better choice that Mary made, Jesus said, right, was to sit at his feet and be still. That I have a hard time with being still, Vic. So how do you how do you encourage the leader who is driven by taking action to take that breath and to see the greater, the greater win in being still before the Lord?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah. I mean, I think what I love the most of what we get to do is we walk with churches and we help them kind of see a better way forward for their leadership, better way forward for their church, is there is a moment always that happens where they reflect on the time and it's never, they never look back and tell me, like they'll say things like, I'm glad we got a good strategy, we got this, we got uh, you know, a new vision. Yes. But the big thing that they say is, man, I'm getting back to why I got into ministry in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Man, I like, man, I we should have been doing this from day one, or like, man, I'm excited again. And it's this renewal piece. And what it is is often along the way in our activity, intimacy with Jesus and activity in ministry begin to get further and further for one another. Yeah, yes. And And it's like, what if there's a ministry out there for you where you can both have intimacy with Jesus and activity in ministry? What if you could minister from the overflow of your relationship with God? What if there is a better way for you? But the truth is, you have to create the space for it. You have to uh get to the end of yourself so that you can find the beginning of that ministry. So you can find a beginning of that relationship with Jesus. And I mean, you see it in through the gospels. Look at how many times Jesus pulls away for a time with the Father.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And it happens before all major uh moments. It often is why he stops things uh from happening and then he goes and gets away. Look at how many times he retreats, and you see that pattern that spiritual renewal is what starts, but it's also what sustains in ministry. And so many of our leaders just need how could what does it look like to have spiritual renewal in a way that ministry is from an overflow of your relationship with God and it's not a threat, like that the ministry activity is not a threat to spiritual renewal. They actually could go together.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah. You mentioned how Robbie was at that point a burnout, and I think a lot of us can relate. You know, if you've been in your a ministry role for several years, it can be exhausting, right? And I think a lot of people are functioning in the ministry in a place where they're depleted and where their ministry is depleting of them rather than replenishing. And that's not how it's supposed to be. And so if that's where you are, listener, this is a message for you. Is the first one is you need to take care of your own spiritual renewal so that these things are truly happening out of the overflow. Take off the pressure to be the do-do-doer and put those marks on the scoreboard and instead start by sitting at the feet of the Lord and seeking him to generate the movement that needs to happen. Uh Vic, you talk about this as so discipleship isn't an add-on, right? It's not uh, this isn't like, do you want fries with that? Right. I go through the drive-thru, I'm like, hey, I want to get that burger. And like, yeah, you want fries with that? It's like I'm doing ministry. Hey, do you want discipleship with that? And discipleship on the side, right? It's kind of this extra, this add-on. It's it's core, but for a lot of us, it's not the core of what we do. And and your recommendation, your advice is that uh discipleship isn't something that we just tack on. It has to be the center of everything that we do in our culture. So, really, what we need to do is create a culture of discipleship. Talk to us a little bit about

Building A Disciple-Making Culture

SPEAKER_01 24:33

that. That discipleship isn't uh it doesn't sit beside what we do, it has to be the center.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

I mean, we all know the culture eat strategy for breakfast, the whole the whole idea they're I looked it up to see who it was that said that a lot of people say Peter Drucker, but I see like there's all these conflicting uh things about who originally said that. But it's so true. It came to my mind immediately looking at this, yeah, uh that preparing for our conversation that yeah, culture eat strategy for breakfast. Listeners, if you don't know the quote, learn the quote. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I always give it to Drucker in my but in my mind. But I think when you actually look, it's like, oh, it could be any it's somebody from the Ford Motor Company may have said that first, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Doesn't matter who says it. It's all truth is God's truth, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

There you go. And I think that culture idea piece is man, how are we developing a culture where disciple making is something that's embraced at every level by every leader? It's the core purpose of what we do. And so, what is the reason that you do that event? What is the reason that you do that program? Why do you join this church? It's all coming back to, man, the success for us is not just attracting people into our church. It's not just attendance, it is to develop people to become followers of Jesus, to become disciple makers of Jesus. And so uh that's so much of having that culture there in it. Um, and I think really the foundation for how you get there is similar to what we were saying before is we have to stop thinking of we've got to stop measuring the score by just activity standards and start to measure it by transformation.

unknown 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

How do what like often what I find in ministry with ministry leaders, what I found in my own ministry is that a lot of times when we just think about the events and the strategy and all that, we catch ourselves just running the next event, the next event, and so forth. And we're doing it either because that's what we've always done, or we've got to get the attendance up more and more to these events. Yes. But I just think that's the wrong scoreboard. I don't think that's how Jesus did his ministry. Like, I don't think that's what he's calling us to. What success looks like is as they're active with us, are they becoming a certain type of person? Yes. Are they becoming a follower of Jesus? Are they becoming a disciple maker for Jesus? Like, are we seeing that transformation? And so one of the biggest things churches can do is let's get a clear picture of what success looks like. And then let's evaluate all of our activity on that end. Do you is that event helping us create these type of people? Is that a programming helping us create these type of people? Is the content and the curriculum that we're choosing, is it uh helping form this type of person?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Most churches are super active, have a lot going on. They're building strategies, but they don't know what success looks like.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And until we get a success that anchors in a fully developed disciple of Jesus, uh then we're always gonna continue to just be on that treadmill of activity, as you've mentioned. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

How so this seems like a simple thing, but I think it's worth taking a second to pause and to talk about how do you define a disciple? So when we say we want to make disciples, I think a lot of us may have a broad range of ideas of what that looks like. And so I'm curious, Vic, how would you define what does it mean to make a disciple? And when can we say, now we've accomplished that in this or we see that in this person?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah. So great question. This is actually my favorite place with kids in student ministries. Like it's actually probably my favorite uh conversations or teams to have this conversation with because there's so much creativity that I think is here if we'll step into it. Um, so a couple of things. First off, is I think a definition of a disciple is very important, but I think it's more of a starting line than a finish line. Yeah. And so I think it's important. Let's get clear on what is a disciple. Let's go to scripture, let's look at that. Every church has their own way of doing that. People ask, what's your definition? I was like, man, a lot of it is what is your definition?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Like, because you're the one that's trying to that your theology informs it, your philosophy, all of that there. It's important. We need to get what is your definition of disciple. You can use Matthew 4, 19, follow me, and I'll make you fishers of men as an anchor verse if you want. You can do it a couple of different ways. But here's the thing ultimately, that's a great starting point, but it's not where we need to finish. And so, because ultimately what a definition does is it engages my mind, the end at the intellect. But what is holding people back is often it hasn't gone from their head to their heart.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

There's a we haven't, and you know, when I look at Jesus and his ministry, Jesus never just showed people, hey, here's a different way. He was always showing them here, this is a better way. He was able to connect the dots for a person that says, Man, I want that for my life. Yeah. And I think we have that opportunity with our people as well to give them a picture of who we want them to become. Most churches are telling their people what they want them to do and not telling them who they want them to become. And that right there, like, come to this event, come to this program, do the volunteer and give us your time. All we're telling our people is here is what we want you to do. Give us one hour your week, two hours of your week, three hours of your week. The reminder that none of us need, but I'll give anyway, is no one joins our church for a busier calendar.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

That is true. That's right. Nobody has extra time, but everybody wants to belong to something meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

That's right. Yeah. They they're not joining to be busier people. They're joining to, or I'm sorry, they're not joining for a busier calendar. They're joining to become a better people. Yes. To be a better follower of Jesus, to be a better parent, to be a better friend, to be a better student. And so, how do we give them a picture of who we want them to become? And then all activity pushes to that. And so, give you just a practical example of what that looks like. We help churches get their dream disciple. And it's it's just the disciple they're developing. It starts at a definition, but then we communicate it in a way that it resonates for their congregation, for their leadership. And so, with that, uh, we help them to then create assessments off of it. So, how do you how do you help people assess where am I how am I doing in these areas of my life? And it allows for us now to start measuring and assessing our life. Am I becoming this type of person? So, an example of that from our church is um I'm working with a church in Missouri, and they go to get their dream disciple, and they're saying, we want whatever we get, we want it to work for the kids, students, all the way up. And so what they then do is they go to get theirs and they think about it like roles. And so just like you are a parent, you're a spouse, you're a friend, it's the roles of their disciple. And what it is, is they want their disciples to have, and imagine head, shoulders, knees, and toes with this right now a mind of truth, a voice of hope, a heart of compassion, hands of service, and feet of purpose. And they and they have definition for all of that, they have assessment questions off of that. But here's the powerful thing is down to the kids' ministry, at parent dedication, they pray that as a blessing over the kid, and then they equip parents to be able to do it ongoing. And so they are training every one of their parents from infancy to pray a mind of truth and touch your kids' head at night, uh a voice of hope and touch the kid's mouth at night and go through that. All of their programming, they they've done all their kids' VBS around that at the end. Everything revolves around it. And from infancy, from child dedication,

Defining A Dream Disciple

SPEAKER_00 32:34

there's this picture of who are the people that we're becoming, and how do we help every at every grade, at every stage, develop that type of disciple? And what that does is it completely changes the activity that you're having in ministry. What events you do, which you do not, how you do them, what what programs look like, what curriculum you choose, all goes through that filter. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah, fantastic, fantastic, and absolutely dead on target, right? It's our uh uh sometimes when we get stuck or caught in the programmatic approach, we can um we can uh speak to the intellect, right? We can fill kids and students' heads with Bible facts and Bible knowledge and present the faith in uh without even meaning to, we can present what it means to be a Christian as about what you know. Uh if can you answer the Bible trivia question? Do you know, you know, the uh the the Sunday school answers? Uh the other side is we can make it about behavior, where uh behavior modification becomes the the the output that we, whether we intend to or not, that we wind up with. It's like to be a Christian is about what you do or what you don't do, where you go and where you don't go, who you are, who you're friends with and who you're not friends with. And at the end of the day, we know that both of those approaches are are misses because Jesus said so, right? He said the Pharisees have both of those things. They have all the knowledge, they know the law, it's memorized, they keep the law and enforce it on others to a fault. And he said of them, right? You're you're you honor me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me. So it's a it's a matter of the heart, the core. And so it's not about doing, as you say, it's about being and becoming. And that shift alone, uh approaching our programs and approaching our, you know, uh, whatever that it is that we're running, camp or VBS or uh weekly Bible study groups, Sunday school, that the the goal we give our leaders is not to have them know this or do this, but to help shape the identity of our kids and our students to identify, uh find their identity in Christ and to be and be with him and become like him. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yeah, that that idea just to practically share that I was with the team and the team that it was a more traditional church. Most of the people in the room had been following Jesus for uh decades, and they started to name their dream disciple. And in it, they said one of them was we want our disciples to give generously. And I pushed on that a little bit and just said, Hey, give generously. That's just more activity. Towards what end? Yes. And I was like, but who do you want them to become? And I said, What if it was a generous friend? To which they said, Ah, that's semantical, it doesn't make a difference. And then there was a new a new staff member who had just gotten saved within two years previously, who said, No, he goes, if you had told me that you wanted my people to or wanted me to give generously when I was at church, I would have thought you just wanted my money. Just wanted my money. Yeah. But if you told me you wanted me to become a generous friend, I needed that in my life. Yes. My my family needed that for me. I needed to be that for somebody. I needed that for me, uh, somebody to be that for me. And I would have wanted that. And and what it is, it's a repositioning of our vision to say, hey, we don't want something from you. We want something for you. Yeah. And it is not more activity, it's for you to look more and more like Jesus. Yes. And we communicate it in a way that it lands not intellectually, but at the heart level. And people say, I want that for my life. And when we do, now they step into that activity with intentionality, with greater commitment and with purpose.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Fantastic.

Organizational Clarity With Why How Where

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Vic, let's talk about organizational clarity. I know that's another key point that you have. Yeah. So, because we can lose our sense of purpose, of vision at the organizational level, uh, and finding those values. So, how do we lose that in the first place? What is it that gets us off course? And then how how do we structure systems that can accelerate rather than suffocate of movement?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yeah, with the third piece of movement is that organizational clarity. And what this is, is just the words of your movement, it's the words of your ministry. And so this is the language that you use to take what is in your mind as a leader or in your heart and get it to as many people as possible. I have a friend of mine who says it this way he says, getting vision is easy, getting shared vision is hard. And I and I think that's such a huge, like a huge thing that we see as leaders, we often have a vision of where we want our ministry to go. The question is, do people see the same vision and are do they know how to find their place in it? And so organizational clarity is so much, it's it's about the declaration for the many. Am I giving enough clarity of our for our ministry or for our church that my leadership team knows the expectations and can step into it? That my that the the kids are the students are the parents, they know how they step into it. And so that's what organizational, that's kind of the heart of organizational clarity. What I often find is that leaders, they have a vision, but they haven't necessarily figured out how to get that vision to where everyone sees it the same way and steps into it. And so that's the piece of organizational clarity. I know you know we kind of look at it from the church level, but from a ministry level, some of the principles that still fully apply in there that I would give for today. Yeah, when I look at the early church and I see how that forms, they were clear on three levels. Uh, they had a clear why, they had a clear how, and they had a clear where. And they build on one another. The why is the motivation in what you're doing. And so the early church, Matthew 28, go and make disciples. That became this charge that they would start on. So that was the why. Then the how is your method. And if you look, I would say that's Acts 2, 42 through 47. It begins to show you it's the first uh pulse check or the first uh report back from the Great Commission. As you look and see, there's a church that has a gathered expression and a scattered expression. It's it's being an internal impact for their people, and those are people are having an external impact in the community. The the church in Acts 2, 42 through 47, you see that it is both a family and they're on mission together. They are a family on mission. That's the how. Now, what that looks like in your ministry, you find those principles and you put it together. And then the last one is your where, which is the map of your movement. And ultimately, that share show answers the question of where are we going? That's your goals, that's your dreams, that's what's out there in front that we're hoping for in the future.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

And for the early church, that's Acts 1.8, where it says, hey, now go make disciples. That's the motivation and the way you're going to do that, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. So I think for leaders, even in your ministry, some of us maybe have great clarity around us in front of uh as a church, some of us may not. But within your ministry, making sure that there's a clear why, how, and where that brings shared leadership, you can control that regardless of what's happening around you. And as you get clear there, that pocket of excellence that it brings can then spread beyond just your ministry as well. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

So yeah, I would agree. I think so many of us, it's easy, easy, easiest, easier for us to have a vision for something. But a lot of us that get stuck with us and not cast, right? So crafting vision and casting vision are two different things. Yeah. And so once you have it, first of all, listeners, it's always best to craft vision, not in isolation, right? But with a core group of people who is your trusted uh inner circle with leaders uh who lead you in your church. You want it to align with the mission of your church, not be different than that. Uh, but that the casting of that vision is so crucial that it's not you who owns a vision that you're pressing on or forcing on others, but you are casting a compelling vision that uh that is clear and compelling so that everyone understands it, so that your volunteers know what the intended outcome is. Uh, they know that the goal is, you know, is not just the knowledge, not just the behavior, but it's the that heart transformation. And they understand that it's the long haul of discipleship that we're heading for. Vic, for those, for those leaders who are listening who are saying, yes, yes,

Patience With Multiplication And Closing

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I want all these things. And I've been trying so hard to make it happen. Yet I feel like it's not happening to the extent that I would like to see. Right. The the kids and students in my ministry are not walking with the Lord uh at a at a rate or a pace or a depth that I really would desire. What encouragement would you offer to them? What's something that they could do in the next 30 days that might change their perspective on that?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah, I love that. I think first, first off, if that's where you feel of I'm further behind uh than I want to be, I would just encourage you that I don't know if there's ever been a time in my life where I haven't felt that. And as I actually asked that in a room, I say, hey, how many of you feel like you're behind? It is almost always 80 to 90 percent of leaders say that, including the leaders that everybody else in the room is looking up to. And so I think it's often there's an internally of like, man, I feel behind. I would just encourage, like, what if you're actually right on time? What if God is actually doing something in you in this season? What if uh what if he's actually forming you and preparing? And so I say that because that's been our journey. Uh, what we're experiencing now is year 10. It's a 10-year arc. Actually, years one through five, we saw the church shrink by half or and we were almost ready to give up. And the temptation at year four would have said, This doesn't work, let's give up. And so I think most of us we want the power of multiplication, but we're not patient with the pace of multiplication. Oh, good.

unknown 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

So I think that's right. We want it now. And we want it better, we want it bigger, and and and and so we fill gaps. And so here would be my encouragement around that is if you fill gaps in your life, it's because you have vision in your life. Vision creates gaps. You see a better day uh tomorrow than that you're experiencing today, and that's a gift. And so my encouragement is don't see gaps always as a negativity. See them as a gift, see it as an opportunity. And the focus is, man, how do we be faithful in taking the next best step that Jesus has called us to? And so what I would encourage in it is uh is to not grow weary in doing good, to not try to rush the process and just take the best next step.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

And due time that looks a little different for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Great. Vic Green, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to share with our audience. Thank you for your heart for ministry, the way that you serve and equip churches and leaders. Uh, listeners, we'll drop uh links in the show notes where you can find out more about replicate, where you can find out more about the book. And so, uh, so the book is Movement Ready Church, a blueprint for multiplying disciples, uh, written by Vic Green along with Robbie Gallaty. Uh we want to make sure that you can get your hands on that book. It's gonna be fantastic for you as you try to uh refocus. Uh, a disciple-making movement doesn't start with better programs, it starts with spiritual renewal, which is our own spiritual renewal. It grows through creating a disciple-making culture and it multiplies through organizational clarity. Uh, so we we, Vic, you also said we don't need to copy what other churches are doing. We need to find out what God wants to do within our church. And so Vic is here to help. The book is there to help. And so, listeners, we uh we we pray with you that God will give you the clarity that you need to serve him and follow him well, to be the Mary, not the Martha, in your ministry. Get off the treadmill and sit before the Lord to seek him as he seeks to make disciples through you in your church and in your community. Vic, thanks for being here. Listeners, thank you for listening. We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. This episode of the Etch NextGen Ministry Podcast was brought to you by our incredible production team, executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza with sound engineer Donnie Gordon, and recorded in the Lifeway Podcast Studios at Lifeway headquarters in Brentwood, Tennessee. I'm your host, Chuck Peters. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Edge Next Gen Ministry Podcast.