53. Building A Safer Church with Kris Buckman

One background check can make us feel responsible, but it cannot make our church safe. We sit down with Kris Buckman to talk plainly about sexual abuse prevention and what Next Gen leaders can actually implement in kids ministry and student ministry without getting overwhelmed.

We unpack why training has to come first, how awareness changes culture, and what grooming patterns and offender behaviors can look like in trusted environments. Kris explains why churches often miss the bigger picture when they treat prevention as a one-time checkbox, and he shares a simple framework built around five essentials: training, screening, protecting, reporting, and caring. We also point you to free resources at SBCabuseprevention.com, including templates and an Essentials Curriculum designed to give teams step-by-step next actions.

Share this with a ministry teammate and leave a review so more churches build safer systems for kids and teens. 

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Transcript

Why Abuse Prevention Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We are here to help you understand the unique cultural needs of Gen Z and Generation Alpha. I'm your host, Chuck Peters, and I'm so glad you're here today. This is the Atch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. You may have heard statistics about sexual abuse, and they are sobering. The stats that we know are that one in four girls and one in 20 boys are sexually abused before the age of 18. One in seven children experience child abuse or neglect each year. Over half of the women and almost one in three men experience some kind of sexual violence involving physical contact at some point in time in their lives. Truly, the rates of abuse are higher. They're probably likely higher than even these because a lot of the things that happen go unreported. So out of every thousand incidents of sexual abuse, it's said that only about 25 abusers ever face incarceration. The reality is that the church is not immune to the wickedness of abuse. Lifeweight research found that 12% of Protestant churchgoers know someone in their church who has experienced rape or attempted rape as an adult. According to church law and tax, sexual abuse of a minor is the top reason that churches end up in court. And we know that abusers often target churches to gain easy access to children and young people in a trusted environment. About 90% of sexual crimes against children are perpetrated by someone that they know and that they trust. And the church is a place where things like that can happen. So, guys, we were talking today about this very serious uh issue of sexual abuse and really about sexual abuse prevention. We need to be in front of this. We need to have policies and procedures and proper screening protocols in place. We need to have eyes to see and ears to hear to avoid having these things happen in our churches. Today we're going to talk about some tips, ideas, and strategies that you can implement at your church at the next gen level with my friend Chris Buckman, who uh is the Youth and Kids Ministry Consultant at the Baptist Convention of Maryland, Delaware. Chris is very well informed on this topic and has a lot of great insight to share. Join me now in my conversation with Chris Buckman as we talk about sexual abuse prevention.

Meet Chris Buckman

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Chris, I'm so glad to have the opportunity to talk with you again. We've had conversations about this topic in the past of uh in the kids' ministry space, on the good old Kids Ministry 101 podcast. But it's, I think this is such an important message for us to talk about in the next gen space for those leaders who are leading over kids and student ministry. And I know that next gen is something that you have a heart for, and it's an area where you serve. Um, why do you think this is an issue that's so important to talk about at the next gen level?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Um, well, it's extremely important. We know at this level, kids are kids and students are making um strides in their spiritual formation and their discipleship. And so in this area, as we do ministry, it's important that we keep them safe as they do that. Um and so this is this is kind of the hub of where all that happens. And so relationships are being built, and so trust needs to be built, accountability needs to be had. And um, you know, if something, if something were to happen, I can't think of a bigger stumbling block that we've that we would read about in Matthew 18 as a stumbling block of abuse in the church. And so we need to get make sure that we're doing ministry as safe as we possibly can.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

There are there are so many stories that that we've all heard about things that happen and uh and it's just so troubling that it's it's it's so important that we as leaders in the church have our eye on this topic, that we have a heightened awareness and that we are proactive in in prevention, right? So, really what we're talking about is sexual abuse prevention, because the best place to be is not in a reactive position, it's one that's well prepared, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, exactly. Um, and the more you keep it in the forefront, so reviewing your policies every single year keeps it in the forefront, and then it starts to become your culture and not just a checkbox. So it's important to continue to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Well, so we, you know, anecdotally, like I said, we've quote, we've all heard about stories, but there are statistics that that uh that emphasize and that support that this really is something we need to take seriously. Do you have some of those statistics you could share?

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, um, and recently the CDC came out with some new ones. And so um, they came out and said that one in four girls and one in 20 boys will be um affected by this by the time they're 18. And so those are big numbers. And personally, in the area that I've been in in the last couple of years and listening to survivors and sitting around tables with people that have gone through this, um I tend to think the the one in 20 number for males is probably incorrect just because of the um stigma that males often have, and they don't often disclose as often as females do. So I tend to think that number might be a little bit skewed. So it affects a lot of our children now and look becomes adults that are sitting in our pews that may have never talked about this before.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah, that's those stats are sobering. You know, and I think you're right. That that all we know is what's actually reported, and so it could be that it could be much higher than what we see.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, yeah. The numbers tell us that only 16% of people report abuse. So that's a very, very low number. So the reality is um that things are happening much more frequently than we tend to think.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, the reality is it happens. And the other reality is sometimes it happens in the church. And that's where this becomes a real important issue for us to talk about uh on this on this podcast, but within our ministries as leaders as well. So I heard you say one thing that you recommend is that you have a written policy, right? I know we have a list, and there's a whole list of things I want to get to that you're gonna talk about, those uh those things that we need to have in place. Uh, but to start with, just to re-emphasize that how important it is that we take this very, very seriously. And if you're in a place leader where you do not have a plan in place, this episode is for you. Um, you must have a plan. You must have a position and you must be prepared. Uh, we don't need to be scared, but we do need to be prepared. And so this is the episode to help you know what you need to do to be well equipped and well prepared in how you recruit and train volunteers, how you screen them, also in how you respond if something were to happen. So, Chris, you've been a part of a team, a task force that put together some resources. Would you tell us about that task

A Free Curriculum For Churches

SPEAKER_01 7:09

force?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Sure. So, um, you know, in the Baptist world, we love our acronym. So I was a part of the ARITF, which stood for Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force. That's a mouthful. Um, and so we were tasked with um taking the team that came before us, their recommendations, and kind of putting feet to them and getting some things done. And so one of the things that we did is we created a curriculum called the Essentials Curriculum, which is based on five essentials that we felt um once a church had these five things in place, that they were um well on their way to being a much safer church. So those five things are training, screening, protecting, reporting, and caring. And so I was finding as I went into churches, I would do like a 45-minute workshop that covered all of those five areas. And then I would pack up my things and I would leave them with just bewilderment on their face of where do we even begin?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Information overload. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yes, yes. And and so sometimes that in itself is a deterrent for churches actually getting things done, just the sheer overwhelm of, oh my gosh, we have especially for smaller churches, we have so many things happening. We're making it Sunday to Sunday. How can we do all of these things? So, our goal with Essentials was to really slow the train down and take it step by step. And so we recommend that you get, like, you know, we say the five, five, five, we get five church leaders together, and it'll probably take about five months to go through the curriculum. And you sit down, and there is a short 20-minute video that goes with each one of those pillars. And once you watch the video, there's some helpful documentation, and then it gives you next steps. Like, okay, we've just taken in this information. What do we do with it? So we tell you here's the first thing you do, here's the second thing you do, here's the third thing you do. When you're finished with that, then come back and let's go into the second thing. And so it just slows everything down and gives them actual next steps and a pathway forward. And so we encourage churches, it's free, it's a free curriculum. Um, and actually, um, the second part of the curriculum or essentials 2.0 just came out in the last month. So there have been some updates made to that by Jeff Dalrymple, who is the new abuse prevention specialist for the SBC, doing amazing work. And so he has enhanced it with some things and so made it even better than what it was before. So it is a free curriculum that's out there for churches that includes all of the sample documents you could ever need. So you don't have to go Google search for applications, reference questions, interview.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

That's so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, so it's all right there for you. We kind of did all that work for church leaders because that's usually what happens. It'll fall on the youth leader, the kids' ministry shoulders, and they don't really have this in their background, and so they just start Googling. Um, so we've kind of done all that and vetted everything and put it all in one place.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

So great. So that the the URL where you can find that listeners is SBCabuseprevention.com. That's SBC Abuseprevention.com. That's the this is a uh these resources have been created. Chris is a part of that task force who did this work and and created the curriculum, uh, created underneath the the umbrella of the Southern Baptist Convention. But these resources are free to any church, anywhere of any denomination, any size, any flavor. So, listener, if you hear this, please go to this website. You it's so important that you be well equipped. Um, I love Chris that you've included forms and things like that that make it easy to have not just uh what tell people what they need to have, but providing it for them as well. So they've got the templates and the resources to do that. And then this phenomenal curriculum with those five pillars that you talked about. Um, let's talk through those if you don't mind. Let's talk about those. Uh you mentioned training, screening, uh protecting, reporting, and care. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

All right, good. I got them right. I got them right. All right, good. Well, let's let's walk us through those,

Training That Changes Church Culture

SPEAKER_01 11:26

please. Let it and you start with training on purpose, right? That's at the very front end.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, and we kind of put them in order, then the order that they are on purpose. And so we do start with training because oftentimes what I have experienced this in my own ministries and what I experience when I talk to church leaders, um, they'll say, I'm passionate about this. I know these things need to be done, but how do I get the church leadership on board to listen to me? And so oftentimes when everyone goes through a training, an abuse prevention training, whether that's with Ministry Safe or Protect My Ministry, some really amazing companies out there online, usually an hour and 15, 20 minutes or so, it puts everybody on the same page. And so, right away from the get-go, once everyone's gone through that training, then everything you say after that makes sense to them. The policies make sense, the screening procedure makes sense. And so having everyone go through that process first is just level playing field for everybody. And also what it does too, if there's somebody that comes to your church that does wish to do harm to children in your ministry, telling them that they have to go through this training and them knowing that everybody else has gone through this training and knows what grooming looks like and knows the hab habits and patterns, that might be enough to deter somebody right there.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Should be a deterrent in itself. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

So that training really lays the foundation for what's in your policies, why things are in there that are in there. It lays the foundation for why they're gonna about to go through this screening process. And it's really helpful. I know when I did it at our church, we had people that um had been serving for years in ministry, and every single one of them came up to me after, you know, they were parents, they were grandparents, and they just said, I had no, no idea the range of this issue. If you don't have this in your past or somebody close to you doesn't have this in your past, we can be very naive about what's going on. Um, and so it's important to get everybody on a level playing field before the ball gets carried down the field.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah, it starts with raising awareness of the issue because I think you're right. There are so many people who serve from a place of innocence where they've been in ministry a long, long time and they either just think, well, this is never gonna happen here, or uh, you know, it's uh they're surprised that it happens anywhere. And so to raise that awareness for everyone, I also really like how you said when every volunteer, every person serving goes through this, anyone who might even have an inkling of doing something is gonna be aware that this is not a place that I should try anything because I will be found out. What are some of those? Can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might be in that training? You mentioned grooming and what to look for, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, some things that good training should include. It should include the types of offenders that are out there, which ones are the most detrimental or the most um harmful to our churches. It's often not the ones that we think. It's not the stranger danger, which our check-in check-in systems try to protect.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

And that's the one that we've heard forever, right? Stranger danger. Don't talk to people you don't know. It's often the abusers, often someone that that the child knows.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Absolutely. 93% of um children know their abuser. It was somebody that they know and somebody that they trusted. And so um, those are church peoples, youths, sports coaches, all of those things. We've we've heard the stories and we've seen the stories. Um good training should include those types of offenders. Um, oftentimes we can't um recognize them if they were to walk in our door, but studies have been done on their behaviors. And so we can study the behavior. We know what the grooming patterns are, we know what to look for. We also need to understand um the implications of abuse on a child. For so many years, I feel like the narrative has been oh my gosh, if something happens in our church, it's gonna be terrible for our church. It's gonna be terrible for our ministry, we're gonna close doors, it'll be the end of our church. But what we don't think about is that child, you know, our church may close its doors and we're gonna find another church to go to, but my goodness, that child for the rest of their life is it just leads to so many mental issues, um, health issues, all kinds of things. And so if we can really flip that narrative on upside down and think of the children first, the child first.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Right, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

We focus on protecting them, inevitably it trickles down and we're gonna protect the church as well. But so good training should include the effects of that abuse on children, what that looks like long term, so they can get a good understanding of that, the grooming habits, um, types of offenders. Um, it should talk about reporting, how how we should report. Um, so many things that should be involved in that training that are important for um people as they get ready to go and serve in rooms with kids or students.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

There, and so I'm glad you said kids or students. You know, we are talking to that next-gen audience. I think this is something that uh, in my experience, that I see a lot of kids' ministry leaders taking very seriously. And I find more kids' ministries who have a written policy and who have a screening process that may be more uh more in-depth or more robust than what I've found in the student space. Uh, it seems as the kids get older, we we say kids as we're talking, but that's anyone from birth up through age 18, right? Who's in our ministry. And a lot of these things happen in the student ministry space. And it's those um those older kids um who are often subject to to forms of abuse uh uh in their preteen or teenage years. So I want to make sure that we're we're clear. This isn't just for children, this is anyone who is in any of our kids or student ministries.

unknown 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Okay, so and I'll just throw in here um all of this too is not just like abuse prevention within the church, and especially as we're dealing with kids and students, um, a lot of abuse happens outside of the church, in the home, or peer-to-peer abuse. And so we, the church, need to be a place where we are educated and we know how to um look at signs and symptoms and know that something might be going on, how to hear allegations, especially as a youth pastor, as their students confide in them. What we what do we do with that information and how do we care for those people? And oftentimes we're not trained in any of that. And so we need to be prepared as a church, not just to prevent abuse from within the church, but also to know how to respond and to recognize and respond. Healing for those kids and students that we serve so that we can be the place where they find um healing.

Screening Beyond Background Checks

SPEAKER_01 18:19

All right. Well, training. So training right up front is very crucial. But then we move into screening. And I know that in a lot of churches, almost every church that anyone is who is listening is in, has a habit of running background checks, right? And we've often put a lot of uh we put a lot of hope that the background check is sufficient to give us the information that we need. And if somebody passes that without any problems, they're probably okay. But really, that is not enough.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah. That's one of the things that I see most too in churches will say, we're good here. We background check everybody. Um, and really the facts tell us that um most people that consent to a background check know that there's nothing defined on there. Um, and so we really need to be cognizant of um what background checks can and can't do, and we need to be a good consumer of background checks. We need to know what we're getting, we need to know exactly what we want to get. And background checks really were not set up as to help us to find information out about people. Um, there's lots of protections around that and what we can and can find out. So we cannot rely, we have to do them, our insurance companies require that we do them, but they play a role in a much larger screening system. And the numbers tell us that most people who have been convicted of sexual crimes against children, once they are caught, it is found out that they have multiple victims in the past. And this is not the first person. So if they've never been caught, guess what? They can pass a background check. So a background check doesn't tell us that someone is a safe person. So it falls, plays a role in a much larger screening process.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So we shouldn't, we should not not do background checks, but we but doing just doing that background check is not adequate to be sure that we are uh making wise decisions about who we're letting into our ministry spaces. Beyond that, what what else would you do, Chris? That would be what additional screening do you recommend beyond that background check?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Sure. So um we recommend an application that somebody fills out an application that's giving us information about them from themselves. And within that application, that they give us references that we can actually call. I know this day, these days, this day and age, it's hard for references because people nobody answers their cell phone when they don't recognize the number. Um so making sure that we reach out, we get emails, we reach out to the people, and you would actually be surprised at what friends and acquaintances will share about somebody behind a keyboard. Um, so just asking that final question, do you recommend that they work with kids and students? Yes or no? Um, I have seen where good friends have come back and the answer is no. And so that should be a red flag for us. So making sure we actually call references, making sure they complete an application, that background check is included, doing an interview with them is important, letting them know, hey, here's our policies and procedures. It also allows you to, if any red flags have come up in the references or on the background check or in the application, you can address it with them in the interview. And then I always say, too, um, just Google search somebody's name. We do it all the time. We do it all the time. And you'll be surprised at what you can find sometimes. Like back to background checks in Maryland, ours only have a look back period of seven years, which isn't very long. So sometimes if something happened 15 years ago that makes them unfit for kids' ministry, a background check may not show up, but something might be out there on the internet that can give us a little bit of information. So I always recommend it's nothing official or formal that you pay for, it's just our Our Google instincts that we've all gotten now with technology and what we have. So I think all of those things pieced together are very, very important and can make a more robust screening process. You're getting a better look at somebody before you make the decision to unleash them into a room full of students.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

I think one of the things that that needs to change in our mindset as kids and student ministry leaders is I feel like, Chris, that we a lot of us are so desperate for volunteers that we are, we we lower the bar as low as we can to qualify as many people as we can because we just need help. And I think we need to have a serious uh reassessment of that that standard of operating or of operating because we we need to raise the bar, right? We need to be very cautious about who we allow in and we we can't afford to uh to uh make the you know they pass the minimum uh uh requirements to get in, and so we're okay. We really need to raise the bar for what we expect, knowing that we are kind of the gatekeeper uh to access to the kids and students in our ministries.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, and just as a parent myself, if a church were to say to me, um, hey, yeah, we need volunteers, and this is all you need to do is pass this background check and you can start serving next Sunday. I don't know about that. But if a church were to say to me, look, we don't have enough volunteers, we're currently in the process, our screening process takes a while. So we're not gonna have ministry until we get safe people to work with your students. To me, that's much more important and makes me feel much better.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

For sure. Yeah, that changes my confidence, right? That the confidence that we can give to parents about safety is so valuable, right? For uh, we do this, first of all, for protection to protect the children, protect ourselves, protect the church. Uh, but we're we are doing this on behalf of those families. And that this is something that parents need to know that we do, right? So that they, as they're visiting different churches and things, they can know that this is a church that has very high standards for who we allow to interact with your children.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah, and you know, parents are parents are not living under a rock. Um, we have so much access to news and information, and the stories about um church leaders and abuse of children is out there. And so they are looking for churches and they're skeptical of churches. And so oftentimes when we lay out these um screening measures and require people to take training, um, we can hear some of our volunteers go, Well, you don't trust me, don't you trust me? You're looking, you know, you're doing all these things, and they kind of can feel violated or they can feel like um the church doesn't trust them as a person, but it's not about them, it's about having the community trust us with their children. Um, and so we need to remember that too, because parents are um they're looking for safe places. And I encourage churches, put your policies and procedures document on your on your webpage. Tell it, tell them exactly how you screen people so that they know that this is the place that takes that seriously.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And along those lines, before we move on to our next talk point, I want to take a minute to just recognize that we should not make exceptions or exemptions for anyone. So there's a lot of times when we might say, well, that person is on staff, or that person is a deacon, or that person, whatever that is, that gives them a status within the church, does should never exempt them from this sort of a screening. It's so important because a lot, a lot of times, unfortunately, those abusers are already embedded even within our churches in ways where they are in positions of authority. And that that can be something that we we need to be careful to not overlook.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And I think that's interesting you say that too, Chuck, because um I personally tell churches to screen and vet anyone who's in leadership. Even if they're on the praise team and they're not working with children, screen them because you don't need people that are on your um worship team. I I know of a church that somebody was on the praise and worship team for three years before it found out that they were on the sex offender registry. Um, and so we can't have children seeing people on stage and then in roles of leadership because that says that that that is a trustworthy person. The church is trusting them and they've given them a position of leadership and trust. And so the children and the students think I can trust that person. Um so I encourage churches, even if they're not working with kids and students, screen and vet your leadership.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Well, and some of those folks who are like on the praise team might be there for youth group on a Wednesday night leading worship, but it puts them in proximity with kids. They may go to camp and be the worship leader at camp for the week, which puts them in an even more intimate proximity with kids. So no one, no one should be exempt from the screening. That's a good takeaway. And then one more question on screenings. I know I said only one more, but I have one more. Um, how often should we redo these, right? Because when I uh so I work in the kids' ministry in our church, I know I went through a background check and a bit of an interview before I started serving, but that was two or three years ago now. How often do we need to renew these screenings or redo, renew or redo the screenings?

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Um, well, we can go back to training. I typically recommend that the training happen um at least every three years. Um, most of the times, those organizations that we that do training really well for churches, that's about the times that they update their trainings about every three years. So having them redo that every three years. Um background checks, first I would say to check with your insurance carrier and see what they require you to do. Um, but usually we recommend churches do a background check every two to five years. Um, and then you're updating on your policies. If you annually re review your policies each year, if you make changes to that, then you need to communicate that with your staff. And so they would be looking at that annually as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

So that's that's really good advice. That's good to know. And that that is something that we should document in our procedures and protocols. And that's the next area that we want to go to

Written Policies And Student Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 28:11

here. So, Chris, why is it so important that we not just kind of have this in our heads as something that we know we should do when we think of it? But why is it so important that we have a written, documented policy about the steps that we need to take?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Sure. So um, and I'll just back up real quick. And all of the screening and training, that should all be documented as well, because what that does is gives people proof that there is, in fact, a screening process that you're following and that you have, in fact, trained people. So it's important to keep documents on all of that. But then moving forward, your policies and procedures document is extremely important. It needs to be very well thought out. It needs to be tailored to your church, to the ministries that you have, to the building that you have, to the area that you meet in. Um, and so it's important that your staff and your volunteers agree to your policies and procedures document with assigned agreement signatures saying, yes, I've read these and yes, I will agree to abide by them, and that you keep that as documentation. Um so there are important things that need to be in there. And again, reviewing them annually now's a good time of the year to review them just to make sure has our space changed at all? Have we changed or added any ministries? Have personnel changed? Have phone numbers, reporting phone numbers changed, has our insurance carrier changed? Um and so all of those things need to be taken into account as we build that policies and procedures document, which should be a living document, not um something that, you know, sometimes I'll look at them and the bottom of them said it was last updated in 1997 in the 1900s. Um so they need to be updated annually and looked at annually.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And reviewed continuously, right? Always having our eye on those things. And some of those things, I know that there's there's others, and maybe you can add to this short little list that comes to my mind is you know, we we know we need to have policies around no doors closed without windows or some way that someone can see into a room. We have rules around uh around having dedicated bathrooms for children that adults do not enter into. We always have two adults with a child at any time, we're never alone. In this student space, we don't interact directly one-on-one with a student through social media or things like that. What are some other things, Chris, that you might add to that?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, and um, so all of those are kind of your basic policies, your bathroom policies and things like that. But as we specifically look at student ministry um and with the culture that we live in with the students that we serve, we do a lot. They do, they do all of their communicating through their device.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Through their devices, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yeah. Good goodness gracious, don't call them because they panic when a phone call comes in. But yeah, so we need to know we know that all discipleship is rooted in relationship. And so as we build those relationships with students, we've got to be able to do that safely. And so we do need to have parameters around how we are communicating with the students in that texting social media environment. And so I usually like to um frame that under the umbrella of permission first. So making sure you're actually getting permission from parents. Am I allowed to communicate with your child on their personal device? It's a very respectful thing to do. And it sets up right away that there's going to be some transparency and accountability here. And then under that umbrella, I like to say like the three Ts we need to think about transparency, timing, and topic. And so texting, same as the two adult rule, should always be done either in a group text or somebody else where there's some accountability, another adult on that text chain, so that that can always be done. So looking at the transparency of that, and then your timing, making sure there's parameters and boundaries of when you can interact with students on their cell phones. You know, nothing after 10 o'clock at night, nothing before seven o'clock in the morning, um, boundaries set on that, and then your topic. You need to have things in your policy that basically say you're not allowed to talk about these things in private conversations, no sexual topics, what you can and can't send back and forth. Um, I was just talking to a youth leader the other day, and he shared with me a really great um resource that's out there. It's called Glue, G-L-O-O. And so what they've done is it can give them additional phone numbers. So they've given their youth leader a phone number through that app. And so now he's not using his personal cell phone to interact with kids. And anybody from the church that has an access to that account can go on there and see his interactions that he's having with students. So that gives transparency and accountability.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Accountability. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah. And even as we interact with them on social media, um, interacting with them through the church's social media. And oftentimes kids will reach out to us on social media platforms. They'll send us, you know, send us a DM or a message, and just trying to transfer that message over to something with more accountability, whether it's to a group text message or to the church's social media platform where other eyes are involved on that are important. And also affecting student ministry, we do a lot of mentoring in student ministry. And so thinking through the boundaries with within which we do that, making sure there's um parameters set up of where and when you can meet, um, making sure we get permission again to do that, the hours of which we can meet with those students. So, especially in student ministries, it kind of opens up a whole new door of different um policies and procedures that we need to think of that we may not think about in kids' ministries. So they may not be quite as concerned with the bathroom policy, but there's much more policies that the student minister needs to be thinking about. Because again, these policies not only protect the students, but we want to protect the people that serve them.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

They protect you as well, right? Even if you're not doing anything wrong, right? They protect you from an accusation, and so you know, you never know what could happen. So safety in in that uh in protocol is so wise.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Well, it's student one of the other areas that that falls into this category, I'm sure, is around appropriate and inappropriate touch and things like that. You know, we in the kids space we talk about no no lap sitting and uh you know hugs, we do high fives, not hugs, things like that. And in the student space, you know, those things need to be talked about as well because it's it's easy in that that interacting with teenagers to be affectionate in ways that we may or may not think of as being uh harmful or inappropriate, that we just need to be extra careful with every boundary, how we embrace someone or how we greet them uh or how we how we interact with them in any sort of physical contact.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah, absolutely. And they're at such a delicate age, um, especially, I say especially females, but males and females of how they perceive interactions. And so as a as a student leader, we need to be very cognizantly aware that we are not sending any mixed, mixed messaging or mixed signals to our students. So it is very important to have boundaries around what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Well, okay, in in that in the in the incident, if something were to happen and that we uh comes to our attention, let's talk a bit about reporting and what sorts of things we need to be aware of and prepared for in that space.

Reporting Plans And Confidentiality

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, so that kind of when I get into policies and usually I'll look at a church's policy and what I'll see is the reporting policy usually lists a phone number. We make we report to our county to this phone number, and that's pretty much their reporting policy. But actuality, when something happens, there's so many more decisions that need to be made. Um, and so if we don't have a plan in place before, um, then we make a lot of um bad decisions. Ones that we don't intend to make bad decisions, but they just end up being bad decisions that we haven't thought of beforehand. So I always encourage church leadership to just sit down for an hour with a pen and paper and say, if this were to happen, what exactly would we do? And basically build like a fire escape plan. Um, it may not be perfect, but you've got something in hand to work from. And at the top of that reporting plan should just scream confidentiality. Oftentimes what happens is you have two people working together. One may witness something or hear something or suspect something. And so what they'll do is talk to the person they're serving with and they'll talk about it, and then they'll go home and talk to their spouses about it. What should we do? If there's no plan in place, then it kind of gets disseminated. And if we don't keep confidentiality as our top priority, we can end up doing a lot of damage to victims and to people who may be alleged perpetrators in the church. And so confidentiality is important, but laying out a reporting plan step by step at what point, who do we report to in the church? Who needs to know? Um, what form do we need to fill out? Who makes the actual phone call? At what point do we notify our insurance carrier? At what point do we notify if it was something in the church, other families to find out if there are other people involved? So lots of things to consider in reporting. And so I encourage churches, just take an hour out and sit down and think through it and come up with a plan. There's lots of good reporting response plans that are out there online. I think even at SBCabuseprevention.com, there's a good one out there. Um, but having that plan in place, I can't tell you just the look of relief I've seen from pastors that say, I have something I can put my hands on that's gonna help us get through this. Because if we don't do training and screening and reporting well, if we don't have those things down well, it doesn't allow us to do the last piece, which is caring, which is what the church is does best. That's what we're designed to do to care and love well on people. And if we don't have these other things in place and that reporting piece comes in and everyone kind of, you know, runs around and scrambles and inadvertently makes bad decisions, what always happens is the victim is the one that gets left out in the cold. And so we don't do what the church does best. And so a reporting plan is extremely, extremely important.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, and I think it's so important, as you said, that we have a reporting plan, not just to the county or whoever we need to report that to formally, but within the church as well, that we're not uh having to make a decision under in that stressful moment to decide what to do in that moment. We need to have that plan laid out ahead of time. Um, and and it's important for us to know what what sorts of things we are mandated to report, right? Because there, I'm sure there are incidents where leaders hear of things and they wonder about something and don't take the step of reporting, maybe because they don't want to falsely accuse someone of something or make it awkward. But but we need to know what is mandatory for us to report.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I encourage churches a lot of times, those people that are on the other end of that phone number in your state or in your county, they are so well trained and so um have so much knowledge. And sometimes I'll just say, you know what, if you're unsure, just call them and ask them and say, I don't know if I need to report this or not, but I feel like um I need to get some clarification from somebody. And they will do that on the other end of the phone. They're trained to do that, to say, this isn't really reportable at this time, always though, documenting what you do. But I always say, when in doubt, make the phone call and make the report. It is very scary to make the phone call. There's a lot of stigma around that. And I think a lot of people are afraid to make the phone call. We feel like if we make a report, then you know, the cops are gonna show up the door and grab somebody out, you know, break a family apart. But a report is really just a request for investigation to look into the matter more deeply from people that are trained to do exactly that. And so um, the more we talk about that and the more we create plans in our church and we bring it up and we talk about it, and we put put it on the table, it kind of removes that stigma from reporting around for people in our churches that can be very scary.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah, and there is kind of a better safe than sorry scenario there, right? We what the last thing we want to do is see something and not say something. It's always better to speak up and to to inquire, like you said, right? Sometimes that's just a conversation where we have someone else who is helping advise us through that. Um, the last thing I would want anyone to do is take make that decision in isolation and have it turn into a problem later. Yeah. Okay, then you've already mentioned the last one, but let's talk about this for a

Caring For Victims Long Term

SPEAKER_01 41:19

moment. Care. So afterwards, if there is that incident, we often, like you said, right at the very top of our conversation, we worry about the reputation of the church and the damage in those ways. But caring for the victimized is an extremely important thing for us to have a plan for ahead of time. Uh, not that they would be ostracized, but that that we would have a plan to come alongside and minister to them.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, absolutely. And um, usually when I'm talking with churches and pastors are in the rooms, I will ask them, how many um counseling classes did you have in seminary? Usually the answer is one, maybe two. And we know that um when a child has been affected by abuse or even an adult who was affected as a child, the um the effects of that, it's a it's a marathon of counseling that they need to go through. Um, and so it's not a one, a one meeting and done. And oftentimes it goes beyond the scope of what a pastor has been trained to do. And so as a church, it again, this just involves some forethought. Sitting down and going, are there some local counselors that we can vet that we know of, that we can have in our back pocket to say, you know what? Um, we want to send you, we want to help you, and here are some counselors that we think are gonna are gonna be able to help in your situation. It allows the pastor to be the pastor. Um, and then it allows the the care to go on beyond and in a deeper level, in a more trauma-informed level that needs to happen that they may not be quite trained to undertake. Um, so part of that caring piece is knowing what is around you. Um, where are some biblically trained counselors, trauma-informed counselors that can help that? Because oftentimes if they come to us and we say, Well, I don't really know where to send you. But if we have some forethought into that, it just goes to show that again, we have been thinking about this and this is important to us. It's part of our culture and part of our safety. And we have people that we have vetted and that we can send you to. And in that essentials curriculum, in the care section, there is a downloadable document that tells you how to vet counselors. So that if you have some in your state and you're like, let's let's call some of these counselors and ask some of these questions and see if they can go through our vetting process and then we can have them one hand to refer people to. Um, oftentimes in churches, too, we're we do a really good job when there's a death in the family or an illness in the family, and we kind of swoop in and we make meals and we're there and we visit and we pray. But when this happens, we kind of freeze up. We're not really exactly sure what to do or what.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

What to do, what to say, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Right. And so sometimes it's something as simple as having somebody in the church that is on hand to be, I use the term victim advocate, but um somebody may not necessarily be an actually trained advocate, just somebody that can say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be here for you, I'm gonna pray with you, um, you can trust my confidence, I'm gonna walk alongside this with you, help get you where you need to go, help um, you know, be an ear for you, someone to be with you. And so um, those are ways that we can care well. We can also offer um financially to help people go through counseling. Oftentimes when this comes up in a church and they're working on strengthening their systems and it comes from the pulpit and the pastor says, We're taking a stronger stance on this, we're gonna make it part of our culture. Here are the steps we're getting ready to do. You may be affected in it as you serve. Almost all of the time, somebody from the congregation will approach the pastor and say, I had this in my past and I've never dealt with it. So we also need to be prepared for that. And so, have you ever received counseling? We've got some good counselors that we can recommend and let us help you get through that financially if we can. Um, so those are just some ways that we can think ahead of time to be prepared to care for victims. Knowing where our child advocacy centers are in our state, we have one in every county, um, is helpful for parents because they're navigating this and they don't want their child to have to retell their story over and over and over again. It's just re-traumatized them. So a child, um a child advocacy center is kind of a place where they can go and there's there's doctors, there's counselors, there's police officers, and so they only have to share their story one time. So just knowing and thinking ahead, it's it's again, it's that forward thinking that says this is a this is a priority to us, and we're gonna be a church that um that cares really well for people.

Resources, Next Steps, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Chris Buckman, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for the work that you have done. I know that this has been a work of uh from the heart for you, uh, but what a phenomenal uh uh work it has been. The the resources that are provided to churches through the essentials curriculum, through the training, the forms and documents that are needed. It's this is something that every church leader needs to have. And so, listeners, if you do not have something, you have to have something in place. And so please, please, please, I urge you go to sbcabuseprevention.com and get familiar with the resources that are there and take steps immediately to improve what's happening right now, move beyond background checks, uh checks alone into better screenings, uh, learn how to qualify people, learn what to watch for in terms of how to identify grooming behavior and other patterns that could suggest the potential for abuse, be prepared with a written plan and know how to respond if something were to happen. Uh, all of that, those resources are available for free at sbcabuseprevention.com. So please, please, please go check that out. Don't go another day without it. And if you have a policy in place that may be out of date, it's probably time to update that too. Uh, you can't afford to operate with uh with a policy that is uh 10 years old in this day and age. You need to be up to date and current with all of these policies as well in your kids and your student spaces and for the sake of the families, leaders, uh children, and the churches that you serve. Chris, thank you again for being here. It's so great to talk with you. And uh you've got such a wealth of knowledge in this area. So thank you for sharing that with our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

You're welcome. And I'll give you um another document that I don't think is on there. It's an annual review guide. So it will guide you through a review of your policies and procedures and tell you exactly what to look for. So um, I'll give you that too so you can add it to the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Wonderful. Yes, if you share that, we will get that added to the show notes for sure. Chris, thanks again for being here. Listeners, thank you for the ministry that you do in your community, in your church, to the kids and families that you serve. Please be cautious and diligent that you are doing that in a way that you are uh prepared well uh for any circumstance. It's it's difficult to think about uh about harmful and uh and ugly things, but we do need to be well prepared. So make sure that you are. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. This episode of the Etch NextGen Ministry Podcast was brought to you by our incredible production team, executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza with sound engineer Donnie Gordon, and recorded in the Lifeway Podcast Studios at Lifeway Headquarters in Brentwood, Tennessee. I'm your host, Chuck Peters. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast.