54. Living Beyond Offense with Yana Jenay Conner

Somebody will hurt you in ministry. Sometimes it’s loud criticism, sometimes it’s quiet silence, and sometimes it’s the kind of misunderstanding that makes you wonder if leading is worth it. We sit down with Bible teacher, ministry leader, and author Yana Jenay Conner to talk about what to do when offense shows up inside the church and how to keep your heart soft when you’ve been wounded.

Yana frames forgiveness as an act of faith and a spiritual battle for unity, drawing from Scripture to show why God calls us to release the debt and refuse retaliation. We dig into the hard questions ministry leaders actually face: How do I forgive when the other person never apologizes? How do I stop bitterness from becoming background noise that colors every relationship? How do I tell the difference between real sin and unmet expectations, personality clashes, or my own idols getting challenged?

We also get practical and careful about safety. Forgiveness is not pretending you weren’t hurt, and it’s not the same as reconciliation or rebuilt trust.

If you lead students, volunteers, or families, this conversation will give you language, clarity, and next steps for church conflict and reconciliation. Subscribe for more, share this with a teammate, and leave a review so more ministry leaders can find it.

SHOW LINKS: 

Living Beyond Offense by Yana Jenay Conner 

Register for ETCH Conference 2026

Connect with Lifeway Next Gen Ministry 

Transcript

Why Offense Is Inevitable

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We are here to help you understand the unique cultural needs of Gen Z and Generation Alpha. I'm your host, Chuck Peters, and I'm so glad you're here today. This is the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. If you've been in ministry for more than a minute, you've been hurt by somebody. And it's usually not by those people out there, but by people inside the church. Criticism, misunderstandings, betrayal, sometimes silence can be hurtful. And at some point, every one of us as a leader faces the same question. How do I keep my heart soft when I've been wounded? And today we're gonna step into that tension because offense isn't rare, it's inevitable. We are all offended at some point or another. And by the way, we also all offend other people at one time or another. And it's good for us to talk about this idea of offense and forgiveness so that we know how to handle it when it happens to us. So the question is what do we do with offense? And that's where everything changes. Uh, I'm really excited for this conversation today because we're joined by Yana Janae Connor. She's a Bible teacher, ministry leader, and the author of a new book, Living Beyond Offense, doing the hard work of forgiveness God's way. And so in her book, Yana gives us uh a roadmap, not cliches about forgiveness, a roadmap that's honest, about pain, that is deeply rooted in scripture and incredibly practical for real relationships. Whether it's an offense that you have yourself, or if you're helping as a leader to mediate and moderate between two team members or two parents or some volunteers who need reconciliation. The roadmap that Yana offers is gonna be helpful to you in all those areas. She reminds us that forgiveness isn't about pretending that we didn't get hurt and it's not about getting revenge. The truth is we all want to be forgiven, but it's hard to sometimes give forgiveness to others. So today we're gonna talk about what forgiveness really is, what it isn't, and how we can get better about forgiving the way that God has forgiven us. Join me now in this conversation with Yana Janay Connor. Well, listeners, if you have been in ministry for more than five minutes, you have probably been hurt by somebody, offended by somebody. It just happens. Maybe it's a parent who doesn't like the way you're leading a ministry, maybe it's a volunteer, maybe it's a fellow staffer. We have a lot of opportunity to um handle our response when those things happen and handling it well in a godly way, in a way that demonstrates um the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in our ministries. Man, that's harder than it sounds. And so today I'm talking with a new friend, Yana, Yana Janae Connor. I'm so glad uh for the opportunity to meet you and to talk with you about this topic. She has a book that I will tell you about. The conversation we're gonna have is gonna stem from the outline from that book, as she guides us in a conversation through what we do in light of offenses that come our way. So, Yana, welcome. I'm so glad to have you.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Hi, Chuck. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and so excited to have this conversation around offenses and forgiveness in the context of ministry and leadership. Uh, because if you're gonna be a leader in ministry, uh, you have to learn how to forgive. I was jokingly saying to somebody, I was like, I think they need to put this on the job description in ministry, like ability to live beyond offense, uh, ability to forgive because it's so much a part of the work that we do as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yes, we we will we're gonna come across offense. It's something that's gonna happen. So it's a little bit like uh when James says, you know, consider it pure joy when you encounter trials, not if, because there's no if about it, right? We are going to come to a place where there's tension, where there's relational tension. And that's one of the very first things that you that you lead with uh in the book is the idea that the core problem is that everyone is gonna experience offense. You really can't avoid it.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, everyone is gonna experience offense. We live in a broken and fallen world with broken and fallen people. And the unfortunate reality of that is that because uh we live in a broken and fallen world with broken and fallen people, is that on any given day, someone can offend us. Um on any given day, someone can sin against us and we can sin against them. And I think one of the things that was kind of an epiphany for me, particularly in those early years of ministry, because I've been in ministry for about 20 years, but in those early years of ministry is that I was kind of caught off guard by how often I was either offended by someone or someone was offended by me. I was caught off guard by the amount of conflict that we had to sort of like work through, whether it was with my

When Ministry Gets Romanticized

SPEAKER_02 5:20

my ministry leader or with a volunteer or a student that I was discipling or leading, like there was just all of like offenses everywhere, conflict everywhere. And I remember being like, aren't we the people of God? Like, shouldn't these things be easier uh for us? But there's this story in the book of Acts uh where we we see Paul and Barnabas uh who were like you know commissioned in ministry during a prayer meeting, right? During a prayer meeting, the spirit falls, the leaders lay hands on Paul and Barnabas and they commission them out. And then just a few chapters later, you see Paul and Barnabas having this disagreement about whether or not to bring uh young John Mark along for the trip. And they are so divided over this. They cannot come to a place of agreement that they they split, they go their separate ways. And that for me just was like, oh, this these are the kinds of things that can happen. You can be in ministry together, loving one another. Everyone affirms, you know, that the two of you all need to go out and you know, lead this ministry team together. But then there can still be this opportunity uh for a fence to get in the mix of what God is trying to do and and and bring about a kind of conflict that causes, you know, you two to split. And that was just really uh eye-opening to me because then it just kind of it it you know, we have a tendency to romanticize ministry. And so it just kind of sort of like uh helped me to see, you know, uh more clearly what's possible in that I need to be prepared um for the day when offense happens, even in the context of church, even in the context of of ministry.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah, yeah. And I think you're right, the whole idea of romanticizing ministry, even just the Christian walk in general, right? Because we we kind of live with this uh unspoken idea that if we're doing the right thing, that God's gonna bless everything and make it easy. It's like it's rainbows and butterflies and all the good stuff, right? But we know, we know the reality, especially in ministry, is we cannot forget that the playground is a battleground, that that there's spiritual warfare going on all around us, and that we we have an enemy who does not want us to communicate the gospel. He doesn't want, he hates families, he hates kids, he hates ministry leaders, and so he's gonna come at us with stuff. So I have uh, as I travel and talk and speak, I often share about some strategies

Unity, Division, And Spiritual Warfare

SPEAKER_00 8:05

of Satan. Like he will seek to distract us, distract, disrupt, discourage, uh, destroy, discredit, and divide.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

And I think that division between uh Christians and between leaders and ministry is a tactic that the enemy uses. And if he can divide us, he can break us, right? United we stand, divided we fall, we're better together. And if he can get in between us, if we give him a foothold of unforgiveness, it can be devastating.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, it's it's always been interesting to me that Paul ends his letter to the church at Ephesus with sort of this warning around spiritual warfare. Uh, the whole letter is is centered on the unification of the church uh in light of what Jesus has done. And so he says, you know, Christ through his his his flesh and his blood, he has created one new humanity. So he says that in Ephesians 2, there's no longer Jew or Gentile, uh, like, but we are all one new humanity in Christ. And then after that, he tells them how to live as this one new humanity, uh, where they love one another, they don't lie to one another, you know, uh, they don't sin against one another. Like he tells them how to do that. And then at the end of the book, he says, hey, but remember, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but we wrestle against the principalities, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Present darkness, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah, darkness in this world. And it's so that's so interesting to me because Paul is essentially saying that the evil one, if if God's MO is the unification of all things, including his church and his people, then the evil one's MO is the division of everything, right? And so he says, like, hey, but remember, in your pursuit of unity, you have this adversary who's working against you. And so for me, one thing I've had to keep in view for me, particularly when I'm navigating uh conflict and offenses in the church context, is that behind every relational conflict is a spiritual battle. That there's a spiritual battle. And the question is for me, it's like Yana, are you going to partner with the kingdom of God and what God is trying to bring about in the world, which is the restoration, the unification of all things, or are you going to partner with Satan and his devices of gossip and retaliation and bitterness? Like, who are you going to partner with uh in these moments? Like, whose army really are you in? Are you gonna put on the whole armor of God, or are you gonna walk in in the flesh? And so that's something I have to keep in mind, and it motivates me to live beyond a fence. It motivates me to seek reconciliation whenever it's possible with a brother or sister in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

And boy, I think we don't often see it that way. We might be like, oh, well, hold on, hold on. I'm not, that's not, I'm not doing that. But the reality is when if we're walking in an attitude of unforgiveness or of hostility, of bitterness against a brother or sister in Christ, that is not of God. And so that's that's a concern that really we have to address, right? So we, I mean, the whole concept of forgiveness, we know it's all through scripture. That's the gospel, right? The big part of the gospel. And we all want to be forgiven when it's us that has offended somebody else. It can be hard in our, I'll speak for myself. It can be hard for me and my own pride to forgive somebody else when they've hurt me. So how do you what do we do there? So we, I mean, we know that forgiveness is something that's it's it's mandated in scripture, right? We we there's tons of scripture about the importance of forgiveness, God's forgiveness of us and his expectation of us to forgive others. How how do we live that out when

Forgiveness As An Act Of Faith

SPEAKER_00 12:10

it's not easy?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah, one of the things I've been wrestling with as of late, and just sort of coming to see even the more, is that forgiveness is an act of faith. Uh, and it's just kind of true with all of the commands of God, is that you know, our obedience to them is really an act of faith in us believing uh that God is who he says he is, believing that he's gonna do what he says that he will do. And for me, when it comes to forgiveness, I am forgiving this person because I believe a few things. I believe that God is going to take care of me, that he will heal me. So I don't have to uh uh hold this person responsible for healing or restoring me or making me feel better.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Um engines or whatever, right? To get your payback, get your pound of flesh. You don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

I don't have to do that. I can trust that God's gonna take care of me. And I can also trust that that God is just, that he's just and that he's gonna settle all accounts. And so there's this um, the the parable, not the parable, it's not the parable, it's the story of where Jesus washes his disciples' feet. And I studied this extensively in the process of writing the book, and I'll be honest with you, Chuck. Like, if I didn't have to like write the book, I probably would have never seen this because you because it's like you're just reading it over and over and over and over again, and it's in John. Let me see, I have my Bible here, it's in John 13, I believe. Yes, it's in John 13. And right before Jesus washes his disciples' feet. John, John tells us this. Um he says that uh in verse 2, he says, now when it was time for supper, the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas, Simon Simon Iscariot's son, to betray him. Then there's some translations that have a comma there, and then it says, Jesus, knowing that the father had given him all things into his hand, and that he had come from the father, and that he was going back to the father, he got up from supper, uh, laid aside his outer clothing, took a towel and tied it around himself, and then he poured water in a basin and proceeded to wash his disciples' feet. And it's so interesting that that John wants us to know that the evil one had already put it in Judas's heart to betray him, but that Jesus was able to get up from his seat and wash his disciples' feet because of these three things that he knew. He knew the father was gonna give him all things, he knew why the father had sent him into the world, and he also knew that he was going back to the father. And I think those are three things that are also true for us. Like we know that the Lord's got our back, right? We know that he has sent us into the world to be his disciples, to live as peep peacemakers in his world. And we also know that we're gonna go back to him, like we're gonna return to him and all of the pain that we've experienced in this life, it will be it will be a memory no more. And it's like, because of these truths, I can forgive. I know that God's gonna take care of me. I know that he's gonna restore me. The Lord is committed to the redemption of all things, and I'm a part of that. But I also know that the Lord has called me to live in the world like Jesus, and Jesus is forgiving. And so my argument is that we are most like Jesus when we forgive, right? Like we are most like him when we forgive, and we're called to be like him in the world, but I'm also gonna return. I'm also gonna return to the Father and and when in his presence, like there is fullness of joy, like uh he's gonna wipe away every tear from my eyes. And so, all of those three truths, they free me to forgive this person who has harmed me because I also know that in the end, like there will be God's judgment, right? And and if this person doesn't repent, they will receive the Lord's judgment. Uh Psalm 37, it says he's gonna cause your righteousness and your justice to shine like the noonday sun. And so, because of that, we can let go of these offenses and not hold on to them because we trust that God will be just.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, boy, that's so good. You know, it's so many people hold on to the offenses. Like we, and that's probably true of many of us, most of us, all of us to a degree. The this whole idea of forgiveness is something that you doesn't just happen because we feel like it. It's something that we need to do because we know it's what God wants us to do. He tells us to do, it's commanded of us, but it's not in our nature, right? And so when we hold on to whatever offense, and it could be some little small thing. I know there's so many people who have split and divided over teeny little things that when you review them, right? We've heard that about the church split because of the color of the carpet or whatever, right? Little things that are not of substance that can divide us if we let them stay, if we don't deal with them, it's so unhealthy for us. And it's uh I've heard um what forgiveness is is for the other person, but it's really also for you. Because right, when we uh don't forgive others, it that is almost like a cancer in our own lives.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Oh, yeah. It's a cancer in our life, it's a cancer in our relationships, and not just our relationships with other people, but also our relationship with with God, I think uh Jonah is a good example of this. You know, Jonah does not want to go to Nineveh because these are Israel's enemies. And so uh he, you know, he runs in the other direction. And even though he does come to a point of surrender uh and and then eventually go to the people of Nineveh and proclaim the Lord's word to him, to them, we see at the end of Jonah, he is sitting under a tree, sulking. Angry, angry, and he's angry with God. He's angry with God that God would be gracious to his offenders, that God would seek their redemption and their restoration. And because of this bitterness in his heart, now he has this issue with God. And so I think we fool ourselves, like we really do, and we think, oh, we can just have this one place of unforgiveness in our

Bitterness Breaks Relationships With God

SPEAKER_02 18:40

lives, and it's not gonna have a ripple effect into all of our relationships, uh, our relationship with God, others, and even ourselves, in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah. You say that um you can't fully follow Jesus if you're holding on to bitterness.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

No. No, and I don't I don't say that to to shame anyone. I don't say that to make anyone feel burdened by that. Um but it is the reality of scripture, you know, it is it is what it is what Jesus has commanded. And so I think about the parable of the unforgiving servant, right? The the the conundrum, you know, the issue at hand is like, how could you withhold forgiveness from others when you have been forgiven so much? Forgiven so much. Like, how could you do that? And so I would say to anyone who is struggling to forgive, like, find encouragement, support, empowerment, inspiration, if you will, in the forgiveness that you have received. And so maybe your first step isn't like trying to like, you know, garner up the feelings or the desire to forgive that person. Maybe you just need to sit with the gospel and sit with the forgiveness that you uh have received. This is why we need to preach the gospel to ourselves every day. This is why Jesus has us pray, you know, help us to forgive others as we have been forgiven so that we can remember this cycle that we're in of like receiving for God's forgiveness and and giving God's forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yes. Oh, so good. So for some of us, we we know that we have unforgiveness that we need to deal with and we just haven't dealt with it. Right. And I think about the the the other story in scripture where uh the the man's heading to the temple and he says, You have something between you and a brother, go and deal with that before you come. And so, man, we for us to be walking in right relationship with the Lord, we cannot be harboring unforgiveness and bitterness. It will separate us from him and break that communion. So it's so important that we seek reconciliation when we need to. Now, sometimes that's people who've hurt us who are not coming to us, right? Because we might be like, Well, I know that there's a thing, but they did that to me. I didn't do it to them. We still need to give forgiveness, whether they ask or not.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

It's like so it's not about them asking for forgiveness, it's really about God saying, Listen, we need to be forgiving even if they never come and ask us. And I love the way that you tied that back to boy, we because we've been forgiven so much, how could we not forgive others of these small things? So, for some of us,

Make The Call Toward Peace

SPEAKER_00 21:25

we know what we need, what we need to do, listeners. If that's you, pause the podcast right now and make the call. Send the text, set up the coffee, engage with that person to not let the enemy cause division in your ministry and in your church. It's uh it is not worth it. The whatever value you get from hanging on to the hurt is not worth it. Now, for other people, you may not even acknowledge that you've been hurt, right? Some of us kind of have this demeanor where we're like, you can't hurt me either because we're tough or just maybe because we just deny it or ignore it.

Name The Pain Honestly

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And Yana, you also say that in really in order to move through forgiveness, we have to acknowledge the pain in the first place. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah, like you can't forgive what you're unwilling to honestly acknowledge. And like you said, Chuck, like this is a really difficult step for people, uh, particularly like if we have felt victimized or deceived in some ways. Sometimes those aren't things that we want to admit about ourselves. Like, oh, I suffered, you know, something that was maybe abusive, or I suffered uh something that uh that was deceptive. And how could I let this person deceive me in this way? And so because it sort of would require us to accept that we have have put, you know, quote unquote put ourselves in a situation or we've been put in a situation where we have been harmed, uh, we can sort of like resist that, you know, and I've done that, like I've definitely done that. Like uh as I've been in counseling and my counselor will reflect back to me what I said and it's like, hey girl, that's actually you know, very manipulative. But it's like, but I don't want to, I don't want to accept the the the truth that I was manipulated, right? Um, and so I think sometimes we can have those sort of defense mechanisms up, but we don't need to like we can bring those things out into the light um so that one, we can forgive that person, but also so that the Lord can heal us, most importantly, so that the Lord can heal us um in a way that we don't carry sort of that shame or that hurt into like future, future relationships, but we do have to honestly acknowledge what happened. And what I love about the Psalms and what I just love about the Bible in general is that people are honestly acknowledging what happened. You know, like nobody's hiding, nobody's really using much of a filter. Uh, and some of the psalms are like, hey, Lord, you know, punch this person's teeth out. It's like, wait, I don't know. Can we actually say these kinds of things, you know, like to the Lord?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

But they but we can't be psalms in my like in my read through the Bible this year. I mean, I've been in Psalms recently, and it's so much of it is like, Lord, go get my enemy, those imprecatory kind of prayers and things. But yeah, there's honesty there about that real hurt that's happened and asking God to intervene. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

And we should do that. We should do that. Um, and I love that you said it's asking God to intervene, right? So, not us, you know. David's not even, you know, in many of those times, they're not even asking, like, Lord, help me get them back. He's like, No, no, no, Lord, you take care of it. Like, just leave me out of it, you know. But you go and you take take care of it. And so um we we can be honestly, you know, uh, we can honestly acknowledge what has happened to us and we need to do that. So then we can clearly

What Forgiveness Is Not

SPEAKER_02 25:00

know what we're forgiving that person of.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Um, and whether or not we get to share that with them or not, that kind of clarity really helps us to then define what forgiveness will mean um moving forward. You know, uh forgiveness is not reconciliation, forgiveness is not trusting that person again, it's not hitting the reset button on the relationship. Uh, it forgiveness is making the merciful decision to release an offender of their debt and to not retaliate against them in anger. So you're you're you're making a merciful decision, meaning they don't deserve it. They don't deserve it. So we don't forgive people because they deserve it. We forgive people because when we didn't deserve it, God forgave us. And we're just releasing them of their responsibility to pay us back. Do they owe us a debt? Absolutely. But we're releasing them of that responsibility. And then we also are choosing to not retaliate against them uh in anger. And we then need to like define what that means moving forward. And so it's like, I'm not gonna gossip about them. Uh, for me, it's sometimes meant I'm not gonna share this story publicly. Uh for for me, it's also been uh I'm I'm not going to communicate harshly as a way to sort of get my lick back. I'm gonna instead communicate with grace and mercy and compassion uh as much as possible. So those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

So good. But there's there's a difference between forgiveness and denying or pretending that you weren't hurt, right? And some of this maybe equate this idea that that uh spiritual maturity equals uh I'm not offended by anything, right? Or that didn't hurt me or whatever. I just automatically forgive. There's something to owning the reality that we have been hurt in order to be able to truly deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, no, I think what you're talking about is like when we do that, we're maybe trying to regain our sense of control, you know, uh over the situation. But even as you were talking, I was like, that's kind of what uh nirvana is, you know, in that theological structure. Not the 90s band, not the not the band. But, you know, like uh I believe it's in the Buddha Buddhists, like they believe that they can come to this place of unbotheredness.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Right? Uh where they live above all of the chaos and the conflict in their world. Um, but that's Jesus offers us a better way where we can live in touch with reality, but also uh have access to him.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah.

Real Offense Versus Expectations

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So you also talk about the different kinds of offenses, right? So we we we need to be able to distinguish between like a real offense and maybe a perceived one. Tell us about the difference there, right? Because I I can perceive everything as an offense, but there's some things that are maybe not, and there's others that are like legit offenses that are valid. How do how do you discern between those two?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Oh yeah. So for me, I'm thinking about a story where like I was offended by a friend and um I go into the conversation, you know, to lay my offense out and only to at the end and like looking for an apology, right? Only until the to the end of the conversation, realize that I'm the one who needs to offer the apology. And so, you know, sometimes we are offended by people not because they sinned against us, but because they didn't meet our expectations. And sometimes those expectations are reasonable, but then there are also times when they are unreasonable, you know? Um, and then we also sometimes are offended because people are uh either disrupting our ability to engage in our idols, you know, and so it's like if if you are, you know, an over-functioning, high-functioning person and you know, uh people coming to you or even your volunteers interrupting you and your time, like you can kind of become offended by that and be like, oh, you know, they always want something, they don't think about other people. And it's like, well, maybe you have a productivity idol, you know, in this, in this. Or sometimes we get offended because when someone brings constructive feedback to us, it disrupts our sense of self.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Personally, oh gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

We can think that they're trying to uh to to bring us down in some way. And this is true in ministry. Like I tell somebody when you're in ministry, you need to just rem think of yourself as a suggestion box. Like people are gonna always have suggestions about what needs to be done better, how you can be better, and all those kinds of things. And it it creates an opportunity for you to be to be offended. And so, uh, so those are things that that we can take offense to, but that aren't really like rooted in sin. Sometimes it's personality differences, uh, and then sometimes it's really like this person is is uh disrupting my ability to either like worship my idols or or be who my like my ideal self.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

There's uh so I thought of the thing I was gonna say way back at the beginning of the episode, and I forgot in front of my head, is I've heard it said that like in order to be successful in ministry over the long haul, you have to have a tender heart and a thick skin. Oh, yeah. Tender heart and thick skin, right? Because we constantly have to be gentle and understanding and merciful, humble. But at the same time, people are gonna bring their honest opinions to you. And if we are too sensitive, we can take those things personally and it could turn into hurt that they're not even intending to hurt us necessarily, right? Some of them maybe, some but sometimes maybe. But a lot of the times, if it's uh they have a different preference than we do, like you're saying, maybe they they're asking questions around something that's a personal issue that we take really seriously or that is hurtful in a personal way, but really is not intended that way. So much of it is is uh uh part of it's about intent, right? Is that a person intending to hurt me? Now, sometimes we hurt and get hurt unintentionally, and that's still valid, but there's definitely a difference between, as you would say, something that's like actual transgression and something that's maybe a misunderstanding or a difference in person. I mean, we know there's so many different personality types and people out there. Some people are just very blunt and direct, and others are really gentle and kind of beat around the bush. And if we're a gentle person and we get uh a conversation with somebody who's really direct, it can feel like it's an offense or an attack, and maybe it's not. So, but figuring out what is uh valid and maybe what is is not is a key thing for us to figure out.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah, yeah. And I really take a cue from uh from David at the end of Psalm 139. Uh it the end of Psalms 139, like it ends kind of weird. Um, you talked about it earlier in precatory psalm. And so Psalm 139 is classified as an imprecatory psalm, which is a justice psalm. And so this is someone who maybe is in conflict with someone, uh, has an enemy and is seeking the Lord for help. And so right after David says, you know, uh, I am fearfully and wonderfully made, uh, I know that feel full well, and all of that, he he then talks about his enemies. Uh, and he's like, Lord, am I not essentially he's like, am I not a good person? Like, am I not a righteous man? You know, uh, do I not hate those who hate you? Uh, am I not like walking with you? Am I not doing the right things? Um, and and so then he's then he says, like, search me, oh God, test and know my heart, uh, uh my anxious heart, uh, see if there's any offensive way within me and lead me in the way of everlasting. And so here it is, David. He's he's got something going on in his life with enemies and and whatnot. And instead of just trusting his own judgment, his own assessment of the situation, he invites the one who knows him best, uh, the one who knows what he's gonna say before he says it, uh, the one who's with him, you know, everywhere. He invites Jesus God to search his heart to test and know his anxious thoughts, uh, and and and to reveal any offensive way in him, and then to lead him in the everlasting way. And I just love that. I love that humility. And it's something that I I strive to do when I'm in a place of conflict is to like just pause and just ask the Lord to search my heart to see if there's something going on with me that could be contributing to this dynamic, or that if there's something in me that has been become easily offended where it shouldn't be, and asking the Lord to lead me in the way of everlasting. It's that work of you know pulling out the plank uh from your eye, so then you can remove the speck.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Like the splinter, yeah. The speck. Yeah. Yeah. Oh goodness.

Forgiveness Is Ongoing Hard Work

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yes, it's and you talk about forgiveness as work, right? That's it's uh it's not something that comes easy, it's hard and it requires effort. So it's it doesn't come natural, it's not something that's just gonna happen. It takes intentionality and it's hard work.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yeah, yeah, and it's and it's it's it's work that we have to do often. And when I say often, even with that same, that one person who forgate who uh sinned against you, when you when you say I forgive you, or you took you say like Lord, I'm gonna walk in forgiveness with this person, like you are making a commitment, a lifelong commitment to live, uh, live out like this decision to forgive. I sort of liken it to when we make the one-time decision to follow Jesus, right? And to, and then every day after that, we we have to pick up our cross and follow him. Daily. Yeah, daily. And it's the same thing with forgiveness, particularly if this person lives with you, if you see them often, they're on your ministry team, you know, because even though, you know, maybe y'all had the mediated conversation and it ended well, there's the tendency for offense to rise again within you, right? When they do something that kind of looks like what they did, you know, like there's gonna be this temptation for you to uh to retaliate against them. There's gonna be this temptation for you to uh to to sort of go back on your your decision to forgive. And in those moments, you have to recommit, you know, uh to that, to that decision. And that is hard work because sometimes our feelings are not there. Um sometimes we're still angry, sometimes we're still frustrated, we're still hurt. Um, and so it's kind of like we have to die to ourselves in those moments um so that we can we can live out our decisions to forgive. And that is hard work. I would have said arduous work if they would have let me. Um such a big work, but I feel like it captures it all the more.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Arduous. That's a good word. There's well, there's also some myths in the culture about forgiveness, right? The idea that, you know, so you you mentioned uh we, you know, can I mean I would say it like you you can forgive somebody mostly, and but but you can still, even if you don't hold the whole thing against them, you now you there's something between you, right? And even if you've forgiven that thing, I now don't trust that person. And so maybe I'm not holding it over them, but there's something in me that holds makes me hold back. That's not full forgiveness, right? So the idea that when when we're forgiven in Christ, that forgiveness is complete, it's full, it's final, it's a hundred percent. It's not mostly forgiven, it's not forgiven for certain things that are compartmentalized. Boy, when we the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all of our sin. His forgiveness is completely adequate to cover the penalty that we owe. And yet when we forgive, we often uh tend to hold parts of that back and not give it fully. That's a whole different issue. I was starting to ask about cultural, cultural

Forgetting, Excusing, And Turning Cheeks

SPEAKER_00 37:20

myths. So there's like some of those things like forgive and forget, right? But forgetting does not equate forgiving, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah, and sometimes it's not really possible to forget, you know, what happened. Um one, especially, you know, in the book I talk about just sort of my my dad and sort of some of his, you know, uh struggles with alcohol and how that really uh impeded on his ability to be present. And when you're a kid and sort of your the lack of your father's presence is sort of etched into your your core memory, um and those kinds of things, like those aren't things that are easily forgotten. Um, and so this is where the work comes in, you know, uh, and this is where the work came in with my dad is like, what does it look like for me to treat him like a forgiven person, even when the the anger sort of comes back up, or maybe he does something that sort of is triggering in the way? It's not actually the same thing, but it feels like the same thing. Like I remember one time he had to reschedule, and it's like, well, he's not canceling, he also is not doing a no-call, no show, but it just kind of feels the same sort of way. And so, how do I in those moments, you know, sort of cast his his forgiven sin back into the depths of the sea and remember like uh my commitment to forgive him and live in step with that? Um, and so and so yeah, so sometimes we can't forget those things that have happened, but in those moments, it's when we recommit, you know, uh to our decision to forgive.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Forgiving also isn't excusing harm.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

No, it's not excusing harm. And I think this is our biggest issue. This is our biggest issue with uh forgiveness, you know, it's it's it's the turn the other cheek, right? Like Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek. And so we think that forgiveness means ignoring someone's sin. If Jesus had told us, you know, if someone slaps you on your right cheek, walk away, then that would have been ignoring. That's ignoring, yeah, right. But when he tells us to turn the other cheek, he is actually uh inviting us to humbly confront the person who has sinned against us. Uh and so he's addressing the law of retaliation and the ways in which they would confront uh offenders. And he's like, hey, you've heard it said, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, somebody slaps you on your left or your right cheek, turn to them the other. And in that moment, you are inviting them to reevaluate their decision, you know, to slap you. Uh, particularly in this culture, uh, this was a very dehumanizing uh slap. And so you are inviting them now to give you a slap that is shared between equals. And so uh a slap on your right hand is a back-handed slap, and then a you know, on your other cheek, it would be an open hand slap. And those are slaps shared between equals. Now, Jesus doesn't actually want you to get slapped again. Like that's not the point. That's not what he's trying to do. That's not what he's trying to do, but he is trying to shake your offender's conscience for them to reevaluate how they have treated you and to instead of treating you as someone less than them, to treat them as someone equal to them, to treat you the way that they want to be be treated. And that's what we do when we go to the people who've offended us. But many times when people offend us, we we just walk away. We just, you know, and there's no accountability. But Jesus actually wants us to humbly confront, and that makes sense to me because God doesn't ignore sin, right? He he, you know, he's like, hey, Israel, come let us reason together. What did I do? You know, let's have a conversation, you know, about this. And so Jesus doesn't it, Jesus doesn't ignore sin either. And so that's not what we're called to do. We're actually called to humbly confront it in hopes that our offenders would repent and and turn uh back into right relationship with the Lord.

Boundaries, Abuse, And Matthew 18

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And it's important for us to acknowledge here also that there are some offenses that are abusive and that are inappropriate. And while God still calls us to forgive, forgiveness does not mean that we give access, that we restore trust, right? Those are different things. And in a situation where there's real abuse, we need to be cautious about setting boundaries and limiting, you know, limiting access.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah. Forgiveness, there's forgiveness, and there's reconciliation, and then there's trusting again. And those are three things that can can work together in a collaborative way to restore a relationship. However, sometimes they don't, you know, and Jesus knows this. Like Jesus knows this, which is why in Matthew 18, he's like, if your brother sins against you, go to them, show them their faults. Uh, and if they listen to you, you have gained your brother or your sister back. And then he's like, but if they don't listen to you, meaning if they don't admit that what they did was wrong, if they don't repent of what they did, because in that culture, listening wasn't just hearing somebody out. Like it was a matter of confession and change. And he's like, if they don't change, uh then go and get two people to help mediate the situation. If that they still don't listen, then go and get church, right? And then after that, if they don't listen, still treat them like a gentile or a tax collector. And and what Jesus is saying there is like where you once treated them like a brother and sister in Christ, now treat them like an unbeliever. That's what he means by gentile. Like, treat them like an unbeliever. So where you once had all things in common, right? And you were holding each other accountable, confessing sin, sharing your resources with one another, Jesus says, no, like cut off that kind of access to you, sort of re-reshift, you know, shift the relationship and restructure the relationship in some way. But then he says, treat them like a tax collector. In that community, tax collectors were considered abusive people that Israel had no dealings with. And so in those instances, Jesus is like, no, end the relationship. However, we don't do this to be punitive, we actually do this to be restorative so that this person has an awareness that what they did was wrong, so wrong that the relationship needed to change. Uh and the hope is that that distance would bring about conviction. Uh, and that conviction would lead to them listening, it would lead to them uh uh uh confessing their sins and repenting of it. But if they don't, then Jesus commands us to not reconcile with those people. And I that just really echoes the care and the goodness of God because he does not want us to just suffer abuse. That's not that's not what it means to be a peacemaker, that's not what it means to be a child of God uh is to suffer, suffer abuse unduly. Like, no, like that's that's not particularly with brothers and sisters. Like we we will suffer abuse like from just the reality of living in a broken and fallen world and persecution, all those things are like realities. But when it comes to brothers and sisters in Christ, like those aren't things that we should, we should suffer under unduly. Um, and so forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation uh and and it doesn't mean trusting again. Forgiveness is something that we do before the Lord. That's a solo work. Reconciliation is a shared work, that means it requires the participation of your offender. And if they don't confess and if they don't repent, then Jesus says treat them like a gentile or a tax collector.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

And we need to be careful in ministry because I know that just in the church universal, there have been many instances where a victim may be manipulated through scripture to say you have to forgive your abuser and and continue to walk with them in relationship. And that I don't believe that that is godly or biblical, right? As you've pointed out, there is a condition, there's a situation that is beyond reconciliation. Forgiveness is a matter for us of the heart. But uh, if if someone is suffered physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, uh that is dangerous and damaging. God is not saying you have to continue with that person. And we need to be careful as ministry leaders that we are not communicating that. Uh, God is the one who sets the victims free. And He He is He is their shelter, uh, and He is not opening them up back to further abuse. So we need to be careful as we guide and lead that we have that straight. And it could be, well, there's really not much of a nuance there, but we we need to be very careful in how we teach forgiveness, because there is a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Absolutely, absolutely, totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

So ultimately, our goal as we kind of wrap up this conversation, the goal is to live a life beyond offense, as your as your book uh indicates, what you lead

What Life Beyond Offense Looks Like

SPEAKER_00 46:48

with. That's the goal, that's the aim, but that seems so elusive and so hard. Uh, you've given so many great tips on that. Um, what what does a beyond offense life look like?

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Oh, yeah, that's so good. That's such a good question. Uh, it's it's one of moving from a place of anger to compassion and mercy with your offender. Uh, so getting to a place where you you see them less and less through the lens of of their offense and your anger towards them, and you see them more through the lens of compassion and mercy. Um, that was something I had to do with my dad. It's just remembering that he lives in a broken and fallen world too. You know, he has sinned against me, but he's also sinned against God. And that apart from him, uh, apart from him, you know, repenting and putting his faith in Jesus, uh, he's got a bigger debt to pay, you know. Um, and how can I uh even extend forgiveness to him as a way to help him to see that that God can forgive him too.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

To see Jesus in you.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, to see Jesus in me. Yeah. And so I think that's one thing. I think also living beyond a fence is coming from a place where so much of your life is colored by the the wrong that you've incurred, you know? And so you you you kind of move in in this world with this. I in the book, I talk, I call it this white noise. Uh, it's always with you of what happened to you and your anger and your frustration and your bitterness with it. And and because of that, you have broken relationships with other people. You repeat, you know, uh some certain behaviors, you live in isolation instead of living in community. And so I think it's moving from having like a heart of Jonah, you know, uh, to having a heart of Jesus, um, where uh you you l you seek to live rightly in relationship uh with other people and are experiencing a greater degree of of healing, you know? Um, and so I think those are two big, big, big things.

Book, Next Steps, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Well, what a great way to wrap up this this conversation. I have had such a great time talking with you. I'm sure our listeners have had a wonderful time listening. Maybe we can do this again on another topic. This is this is a bit of a heavy one, but it's so important, so pertinent to us as we lead our ministries. We will be offended, listeners. You will you you may be carrying an offense right now. And God may use this episode that you're listening to to lead you to seek forgiveness, to name the offense, to seek forgiveness, to seek reconciliation where appropriate in the right ways, and to to choose to live beyond offense. Uh, Yana Janae Connor, so glad to have you. We'll put some information in the show notes of where you can find more about Yana and where you can find her book, Living Beyond Offense. Of course, you can find everything on Amazon.com. So go check it out there. I'm sure you can get it there uh and other places where you find great books. Yana, thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Yeah, thank you. This was so good, Chuck. It was so good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

And listeners, thank you. We so appreciate the ministry that you do, that the way that you serve kids and students and families in your community and in your church. We want to help you, help equip you so that you can do that in the best and most effective possible way as you seek to serve God and honor him and your church as a leader. Thank you for listening. We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast. This episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast was brought to you by our incredible production team, executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza with sound engineer Donnie Gordon, and recorded in the Lifeway Podcast Studios at Lifeway headquarters in Brentwood, Tennessee. I'm your host, Chuck Peters. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast.