From Every Nation

The Haywards: Serving the Lord in Southeast Asia Pt. 1

• Tom Elliff Center for Missions • Season 1 • Episode 13

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In this episode, we have the privilege of speaking with the Haywards, a dedicated missionary couple serving with the International Mission Board (IMB). Both Cindy and William grew up in Oklahoma and experienced a strong sense of calling to missions from an early age. In this conversation, they open up about their journey, sharing how they met, their path to engagement, and how their relationship blossomed into a lifelong commitment to serving others. Today, the Haywards are working in Southeast Asia, where they are deeply involved in spreading the gospel and making a difference in the lives of those they serve. Their story is one of faith, perseverance, and passion for the mission field, and it's an inspiring example that we can all learn from and apply to our own lives.

Text us questions or topics to discuss.

Meet Cindy And William

SPEAKER_01

Hi everybody, welcome to this episode of the From Every Nation podcast, where we've got Cindy and William Hayward with us, and we're excited to do an interview with them and let you all get to know them and get to know a little bit about their work and how they are trying to reach people for the gospel in Southeast Asia. So I'll let them go ahead and introduce themselves for you all, and then we're going to dive into our conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Well, hi, I'm Cindy, and um I grew up in Oklahoma. So I'm a native Oki. I've been Southern Baptist since I was a little tiny child. And I've um been involved in church stuff for years and years. My parents always took me to church Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesdays, and then any other events we had going on. I've been to Falls Creek and was called to missions when I was at Falls Creek and then went to OBU. So go OBU. And then after I graduated from OBU, we went to Southeast Asia and have been there ever since.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I grew up in Oklahoma as well, but I did not grow up as a Baptist. Grew up as a Methodist of all things, but fortunately uh God called me out, it brought me to a Baptist church before calling me to missions because the Southern Baptists do a great job supporting their missionaries. So grew up in a Methodist church, but someone invited me to Falls Creek as a child, and that's where I met Jesus. So I'm grateful for the Southern Baptist work in Oklahoma that's been going on for generations. Um, like she said, we um we were here in Oklahoma and called to the mission field and have been serving in Southeast Asia now for 22 years.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. That's awesome. So where where in Oklahoma were you all born and raised?

SPEAKER_00

I'm from Noble, or actually from Slaughterville, but it's a small town outside of Noble.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And I'm from the giant town of Kellyville, Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_01

Kellyville, I've been there many times for some basketball tournaments.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

Family Roots And Early Faith

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. They've got a good gym for what it's worth. Yep. Yep. That was around since I've been there. Yeah. Yeah, I believe that. So what was what was family life like growing up for you, Cindy, um, in Noble? Were your was your family believers? You grew up going to church?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my family were believers. We actually went to the same church as my great-grandparents and my grandparents, and then my parents, so multi-generation of uh faith. And then um I have an older sister and a younger brother, and we all participated in church activities. We um had Sunday school classes. I was part of a thing called GAs and Mission Friends, which are both Mission Friends is for preschoolers to learn about missions, and that was a Wednesday night thing. And then as I got older around first grade, went into GA's, where we learned about missions also. It's girls in action, and I think there's some still out there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I remember RAs. Yes, that's right. I don't remember what it stood for. Royal ambassadors. That's right. Royal ambassadors, yep. And that I don't remember that past like mid-elementary school for me, which was 20 2005. Yeah. So I haven't heard of that in a while. Yeah, I think most churches have gone away from it. And moved to Iwana. Right, to Iwana. Yeah, fair. Uh so yeah, William, what was life like growing up for you? What was your family like?

SPEAKER_03

Um, I was raised in a Christian family as well. My parents are both believers. I have an older brother. Um, attended church as often as it was open. Uh, went to church camp seldomly with my Methodist church, but then uh I did get to go to church camp with a friend from the Baptist church invited me to Falls Creek uh two different times, as a matter of fact. So yeah, good Christian background, but um all through generations, as far as I can trace Christian family.

Conversions And Mentors

SPEAKER_01

So siblings, oldest child, youngest child? I am the youngest. I have one older brother. Okay. He beat me up till I got bigger than him. That's how it goes. Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm still not bigger than my brother. So, but that is okay. Um, so what about talk to me about when you all accepted Christ? Uh, how old were you all? What was that experience like for you? And how did how did kind of those early, early years, high school years, high school college probably uh how did your faith develop in that?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I was six years old when I accepted Christ and was baptized. Um, it seems kind of young, but because I grew up in the Christian family that was in church so often and in a church that actually shared the gospel regularly, I think that I was able to hear it often and come to understand it. I actually accepted Christ one night after our family devotions because our family would have nightly devotions together. We it was um out of a booklet called Keys for Kids, but it had a little story that went along with some scripture. And one night that just really um the story was about someone who had a chance to accept Christ, and then that night they died. And that just really made me aware of even someone young could die at any time, and what happens then. And so I I really um felt that God called me then and um speak to me that I needed to make that decision. I needed to decide if I wanted to follow God, follow, become a follower of Jesus, or if I wanted to not. And and so even though I was young, I made that decision that night to accept Christ as my savior. And then growing up, um, thankfully I had great Sunday school teachers and so kind of learned lots of Bible stories that way, always encouraged to read my Bible, always encouraged to participate in um activities that would help me grow in my faith and also to try to share my faith some. Um, our church didn't have a lot of opportunities to just go out and do evangelism kind of stuff, but they always were talking about how to share our faith with others and also the need for um others around the world to know about Jesus. And that was kind of the um GAs and the mission friends and everything that kind of spoke into my life so that I knew about missions and what it was and who missionaries were, and we had missionaries come and speak at church and things like that. So that was really nice to have that awareness of the world beyond just little small town Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_01

What were or who were some of the mentors kind of of your life at that time? And what about what about how they lived their life for Christ really spoke to you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, my parents were the biggest influence when I was young. And then I had um some Sunday school teachers. One was Louise Haber. She um always encouraged us to memorize scripture, and Doris Avant, she was another one of my Sunday school teachers, and just the the need to know scripture and and things like that. Then as I was older, um Rodney and Laura Campbell became our pastor at our church. And they really poured into my life, I think. Um Laura taught the youth and then Rodney, the pastor, after I was called to missions, they both encouraged me in um learning more about missions and learning more about the opportunities, and even to go on mission trips when I was still in high school.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, different story for me. Um, like I said, raised in church. I probably heard the gospel who knows how many times, but just as I read in a book recently, it wasn't until I heard it the first time that I heard it the first time, if that makes sense. Someone clearly presented it when I was at Falls Creek. And I heard that just being good wasn't enough, and that my parents' faith couldn't save me. And I remember hearing it clearly, and that was the day that I decided that I had to make a decision to accept Christ. Even though I felt like I was a really good person beforehand. Um, it wasn't until I um I heard the message clearly that day. And like I said, someone probably presented the gospel to me before, but it wasn't until that particular day at Falls Creek that I heard the gospel and realized I had to make a decision to follow Jesus. So I'm grateful for that opportunity. I don't even remember who invited me to go to Falls Creek. So always invite your friends. I mean, maybe we won't remember you, but I remember meeting Jesus there.

Dating, Calling, And A Test Of Direction

SPEAKER_01

Isn't that funny how that happens, though? You can hear something for the first, you can hear the gospel for the first time, and you you hear, I hear students talk about it. Um, friends, nobody ever told me this. Right. And you sit down and think about it. I guarantee you, your youth pastor talked about it. I guarantee you your pastor talked about it. But there's just something about when the spirit opens your eyes and ears to see and hear the gospel that just makes all the difference in your world. I'm grateful my ears and eyes were open finally. Yeah. So what about what about mentors, um influential people in your life, kind of in that conversion period?

SPEAKER_03

Um, another struggle there, a lot, a lot different story from what Cindy said about hers was I I went back to my home church where I didn't really have a mentor. Uh the pastor was um somewhat excited that I came back so excited about accepting Christ. Um, I asked to be baptized afterwards, but I was told that I was baptized previously. Um, but I insisted until that they they baptized me again.

SPEAKER_01

Um were you still at the Methodist Church? Methodist Church, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_03

So then upon joining a Baptist church, I was immersed and so baptized a good solid uh twice, uh if you want to count that. One time I was just got wet, and then two times I was baptized, I would say. Uh so not much in the way of mentorship. So that's something I feel very strongly about. New believers having someone to take them alongside. I think especially what we've seen overseas is someone coming to faith and then not if they don't have a strong community, it's really easy to be attacked by Satan and revert back. So um I find it very important for mentorship and discipleship for new believers.

SPEAKER_01

Any advice for students or new believers who need a mentor, want a mentor, but maybe just don't know where to start or they're nervous to ask somebody?

SPEAKER_03

I would say as an older adult now, compared to what I was when I accepted Christ at 14 years old, I would say if you're insistent and you go to your church, there's someone willing to. I'm positive there's someone willing to. I think if I were asked for that opportunity myself, I would I would count it a great honor, but I'd also be very nervous about seeing someone through that initial stage, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity. So someone in your church will mentor you. You just reach out to those that you see that living godly lives and uh have a good relationship with Jesus, seek them out.

SPEAKER_01

All right, tell us about when in the the timeline you all met each other and how that all unfolded.

SPEAKER_00

So, my senior year of high school, William came to be the band director at the junior high of our school system. So he was my brother's band director when we met. And um we did not start dating until after I graduated. We we always try to make that clear. Um then after we started dating, or well, I went to OBU for my freshman year, and during my freshman year we got engaged, and then we got married after my freshman year at OBU, and I finished college. That was one of my mom's key um points that she made sure got across that I needed to finish school, even though I was getting married before I finished, and so I did.

SPEAKER_03

I think an important thing is I was I was um the middle school band director for her brother, and so I was in a new town, and Cindy's mother invited me to attend their local church. And I had been attending a much, much larger church and didn't really feel at home yet. So I started attending the smaller church and really enjoyed getting to know the people. It was a very rural country church, but everybody knew everybody. Um, even the greeter, a really tall man, made me look fairly short, and I'm over six feet tall, would hug you as you came in and kind of strange, but I enjoyed it. But um I think that's where I really got to know her family and get to spend time together. It was starting out at church.

A Trip To Russia Changes Everything

SPEAKER_00

But an interesting fact is that I had been called to missions when I was 14. So I was approaching any dating relationship thinking, is this a guy that's called to missions too? And if he's not, then probably shouldn't be interested in him. And so I did bring that up one day, and I um just told him, you know, if you're not called to missions, we probably need to stop dating. And I think he was about to break up with me.

SPEAKER_03

I was. I didn't feel like I should go somewhere I wasn't called. So initially it was like, well, I guess that ends that, even though there's this lovely young lady, I felt like I was not called to missions, so I wasn't gonna go.

SPEAKER_01

So let's let's unpack that for a second. Let's let's rewind to when Cindy, you were 14. Yes, and talk to me about your call to missions and how that came about in your life. And then let's let's talk through how y'all worked that through together in your your calling. I think that's really important for a lot of people to hear.

SPEAKER_00

So I was 14 at Falls Creek, and the pastor invited everyone to come forward and write the name of someone that they knew who needed to know the gospel, who needed to be shared with. And so people were going forward and they were writing names down, and God spoke to me in my heart, and he said, There are people whose names are not known that have never heard the gospel. And those are the ones that you need to share with. So it was the that just really impacted me, and I went forward and I dedicated my life to missions. And so I knew that I needed to go where people did not know the name of Jesus. And then after that, our my pastor at the time, Rodney, he was very encouraging and supportive to try to help me know about um missionaries. We started a thing where I would read uh missionary moments every Sunday morning. And so I was reading about these missionaries who were serving overseas and the different things they were doing. Um, sometimes it was a home missionary or a North American missionary, also. So I was seeing all the different opportunities in presenting these to the church.

SPEAKER_01

And I think You were you were reading those on a Sunday morning, like to the congregation.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

So it it was, it really was. And it gave me courage to get in front of people and to share things. So it was kind of because I'm I'm more of an introvert and I'm less likely to stand up and um make a big presentation or anything, but now I feel comfortable being able to do that, and I think that it was because of that opportunity that Rodney gave me. And um he they also had people come and they talked about volunteer mission trips and different opportunities like that. So when I was um 16 and 17 during the summers between my um sophomore and junior year, and then the summer between my junior and senior year in high school, I got to go on mission trips and I went to Eastern Europe, to Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, and that area, and I loved it. I was excited that that was um in my future, and I knew that that was where I was gonna, well, maybe not that area, but I knew that I was gonna end up overseas.

SPEAKER_03

And that leads into uh we met each other, we were dating, as we said, and uh and Cindy said that I probably couldn't, she couldn't continue dating me as long as what was your life plan at the time? I was a band director, and I just planned on teaching band. Now, if I could rewind back to my second time at Falls Creek, I felt God calling me to the ministry. I didn't know what that meant. That was very confusing. Um, then my Jonah story is I went and became a band director. So I am a band director. My life plan is to continue on. I'm enjoying myself. I love the students. Uh, high school and middle school students were just fabulous. But um, we had an evangelist come to the small church that we're talking about. And in the middle of him sharing, he pointed at me and said, You're going with me to Russia. And I thought, no, I'm not.

SPEAKER_01

He pointed at me.

Fast-Track To Southeast Asia

SPEAKER_03

He pointed at me in the middle of the service, uh, baffling. So at the end of the service, I'm trying my best to slip out as fast as I can. But he catches me and he said, You're going with me to Russia. And I said, No, I can't afford to do that. I'm a public school teacher in Oklahoma. So he said, Don't ever let money get uh in the way of God's call. So I wound up going to Russia, and in the middle of my trip to Russia, um, I remember praying over a young epileptic boy at a hospital. And in the middle of me trying to talk, God started talking to me. And excuse me, God, I'm actually trying to talk to you. Why are you interrupting me? Anyway, God said, You're coming back. And I didn't know what that meant at the time, but it uh it was confirmed just moments later in the van as we're riding. Someone behind me couldn't even see my face, said, You're coming back, aren't you? And it was amazing that she used such simple words that God spoke. Maybe God speaks to me in simple words because I'm a simple person, I don't know. But she used the same exact words God used with me right before. And uh both Cindy and I thought it was going to be to Eastern Europe. Um, we absolutely thought that's where God was doing things, but God changed that plan as things happened going on. But um, yeah, so that was my call to missions. And on the trip home is when I realized, wow, that girl I was dating, I might continue dating her. And uh, because I'm called to missions now too.

SPEAKER_01

So it was in the midst of you, you two had already had that conversation. Yes. That hey, this may not work out. Right. You had already had the trip to Russia planned. It was already on the calendar, and then the Lord just kind of used all that to work work in your lives and get everything worked out.

SPEAKER_03

I say that she kind of prayed me into missions. Uh I don't know if that was the case. Maybe that was just her advice from someone wise in her life saying, you know, make sure relationships right. But I felt like she prayed me into the mission field, and I'm grateful for it. But it returns back to the call, like I said, to ministry that I was unaware of what that meant. It was just a clearer um spelling out of what that call was.

SPEAKER_01

So now you both are on the same page. You're you're dating, you both have a call to missions. What was the process like from there going from okay, now we recognize this calling in our life, to we want to get appointed to go?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the funny thing is, is even before we were married, we were engaged, we contacted the IMB. We were like, well, IMB's a great way to go. What do we need to do to be able to go? And their answer was, well, you need to get married first, which we knew. We were in that process. And so we got married. Um, my senior year at OBU, there was a missionary that came to speak and he spoke about using music in ministry. And I thought, well, that's great. My husband's a band director. So afterwards I went up and I told him, my husband's a band director. We're both called to serve overseas, and what kind of opportunities might there be for us? And he got excited and he said, Oh, there's a school in Southeast Asia that needs a band director. And there's an opening, you would be perfect for it. You need to come serve there. And so I got excited and I went home and I told William there's a school that needs a band director in Southeast Asia. It would be great to be able to go, wouldn't it? And his response was, I'll tell my friends.

Orientation And First-Term Entry

SPEAKER_03

I didn't feel like that's where we were going. Remember? We said we're going to Eastern Europe, right? Yeah. Well, Southeast Asia wasn't on the agenda, and a band director overseas, I didn't see that in my future. But it seems like God always spoke to Cindy faster than he did me. So we wound up serving overseas first two years as a band director in Southeast Asia at an international school. So um praise God for the experience that I went through, even becoming a band director, though it seems almost in my history as a bit of a rebellion. Uh, God used it to get us an easy landing overseas first at an international school to be able to teach and uh teaching something I already knew how to do. So I walked in with knowledge and experience. Um the rest of our career hasn't always been that way, but the initial stage I felt pretty confident in how we were starting out.

SPEAKER_00

And while I was finishing up college, Williams started doing seminary to get some seminary credits under his belt. So we were prepared in that way also to be ready for ministry as well. And then after our first term, it was um what at the time was called an ISC term. So it was um just a two-year term. That was all we were committed to, and we kind of counted that as getting our feet wet. And then during that term, as it was coming to an end, we prayed about where to go and what to do next and moved on to another job after that.

SPEAKER_01

So, senior year of high school, how long from senior year of college, sorry, to getting to Southeast Asia was it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, thankfully, since William had his seminary credits, um, we started applying in October during my senior year. And by May, I graduated, June we were at orientation, August 1st, we were on the field. So it was less than a year to get there.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Very fast. It was exceptionally fast. And I think it is mainly just because we were preparing, we knew that we wanted to go overseas and we were accomplishing the steps that we needed to have done for whenever we were ready for the next step. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that time, what training, what did training look like with the IMB for your preparation to go over?

SPEAKER_03

Wow, it it covered everything. Um I still remember one of the things that stood out was a tax training, how to deal with your taxes overseas. Um, and the fun thing is if you decide to go with the IMB, they fill out your taxes for you. So you can pay attention during that training, but um, so what I said, there was one day of tax stuff, uh, but they taught about evangelism. They try try to use, uh, give us some tools to use to be able to share on the field. They uh had us doing research on our country, uh, the people we would go to. They wanted us to even get started doing some language learning, but that really came later on the field. Um, it was hard to find people that spoke our Southeast Lang, uh Southeast Asian language just locally. So it was it was much better when we got to the field.

SPEAKER_00

It was a seven-week um time period for the orientation. So we went to where they do the training, and we were there for those seven weeks. We got to know the other missionaries that were going out, and we all were together being trained, um, talking about culture and culture shock and the different things that we might face and how to do teaming well and how to deal with other people. So it was a lot poured into those seven weeks.

Culture Shock And Classroom Ministry

SPEAKER_01

So let's dive into that two-year initial term for a second and talk about what entry looks like. You know, that's a that's a key factor in the missionary task entry. And there's probably a couple times we'll talk about that, but what was that first term like? Culture shock, normal life as a new missionary.

SPEAKER_03

Well, the two-year term was, like I said, kind of a soft landing in some ways because I was already a band director here in Oklahoma. Then moved to Southeast Asia, was a band director. So I had some um professional experience that made it easier. Now, living in a different country um is is different no matter what you do. We even had a soft landing going to an international school because we're using English to teach the students. So we are trying to study the local language, but we're not getting very far because every day we're using English with all the students, no matter what country they've come from. So a soft landing there, but even in the midst of it, you can have fun cultural experiences and culture stress, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, you can. So one day I um just needed something from home. And so we went to KFC because there were KFCs all over the country. And so we went to KFC, and I was gonna get chicken, I was gonna get mashed potatoes, and it was gonna be like home. And so I ordered my chicken, and then I wanted mashed potatoes, and I point to the sign because it's up behind the guy, and I don't know how to say it in the language of the country. So I was pointing to the sign, I was like, um, I want mashed potatoes. And he just kind of looks at me and nods, and I'm like, but you're supposed to push buttons on the machine. So I said, okay, I want, and I said the the word for potato because I had learned that. And then I was like, smashed. And so I was like using my hand trying to make the motion for mashed potatoes, which of course I'm sure they're powder or something. So they're he has no idea what I'm talking about. But he just keeps looking at me and nodding. And I'm like, mashed potatoes, I just want mashed potatoes. And I broke down in tears because I just needed something from home. I needed something normal. And that was my biggest time of culture shock, culture stress during that term. It was just that idea that I needed something from home and I couldn't have it, and I couldn't communicate. And the guy just kept looking at me and smiling and nodding, and he wouldn't push the buttons on their cash register so that he could order me my mashed potatoes. And I think I ended up with French fries. You did.

SPEAKER_03

You got French fries.

SPEAKER_00

I was so disappointed. I think I really did cry over that. She did.

SPEAKER_03

It's funny now, yeah, but it's very interesting. And when we're talking to students, even around campus, or people going out for the first time, one of our things is saying, you know, culture stress is real. And it may be something so trivial when you look back on it, and it's funny now, but it was not funny then. And uh there were actual tears over French fries versus mashed potatoes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Even though we were serving at an international school, it didn't mean that we weren't missionaries. We were still looking for ways to share the gospel. And William had an opportunity with his students one day to share um the gospel. And he threw that, um, it wasn't at the time, but later on he found out that two students two students accepted Christ because of his opportunity to share with them. So even though it seems like maybe that wasn't real mission work to some people, because we were at an international school, we were teaching a lot of missionary kids actually, and then some other students that were business people's kids. Um, but through that, we were still able to share the gospel, we were still able to be witnesses to the people that. We were among.

Recalling The Missionary Task

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And um, there was a struggle for us in those first two years as well. We couldn't speak the local language and we're going day after day to the school and teaching. But then it was very difficult to share the gospel with our neighbors. So I wanted to learn the language better. I wanted to do stuff. And then even personally, sometimes I didn't feel like I was a missionary. So I think in the midst of that, God was moving us towards something else, and God was um breaking our heart for the loss there. And I want to say about the students too, uh, the two that accepted Christ. One I found out about almost immediately. But the second, it was probably a year or a year later before I ever heard the story of them accepting Christ. And that leads me to more like in our work, sometimes we don't know the impact we've had, what's happened. So we have to leave those results to God. And uh that's been very difficult.

SPEAKER_00

But it was through all of that that we got to the mission field. You know, that the it was only a two-year commitment, but it got us to the country where we were. And out of that, transitioning into a new role, it was we we had our eyes set on Eastern Europe and Russia, and we just knew that was where we were going. And then when this opportunity came to go to Southeast Asia, like William said, we he wasn't even thinking that that was where God would be sending us. But through processes and a prayer, we were able to end up in Southeast Asia. And then whenever our two-year term was coming to an end, we were praying about what was next. And we were already aware of the opportunities, and we were able to pray over the job openings that were in that area, and it led us to serving there for the rest of our so far, the rest of our career that we've been there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we um we tried to open our hands up again in the world again at the end of that two-year commitment because we thought Eastern Europe was on the agenda, and we got led back to Southeast Asia in a different job.

SPEAKER_01

So, what what was that different job and transition from that two-year term to your next term?

Language School And Rural Move

SPEAKER_03

Right. So the next job was to work with an unreached people group. I just, we were in church one morning and we heard the pastor talking about a Paul sharing about not building on someone else's foundation and that those that had never heard would hear. And just felt a smack upside the head from God saying, then you need to look on those jobs you've been praying over. There's one that's just absolutely no one's working with them. It's an unreached, unengaged people group. So that led us to go. We came back to the United States, did a short turnaround, and then we became a different level with the IMB, and we returned to do language study first. And so we worked hard at one of those Southeast Asian languages with different things going on with it that were very difficult. Uh we struggled through that. But and even Cindy had a baby during the middle of uh language study, which was This was during your stateside? No, it was after we turned around and went back to start studying languages in Southeast Asia. Um we had our first child. So in the middle of language study.

SPEAKER_00

No, we had our first.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, we had our first child in the first term. I'm so sorry. That is right. During our first term, the two-year term we had our first child. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00

Which may have been why I was so emotional over mashed potatoes. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Could be. We may have been pregnant at the time. Yeah. So our second child was born during language, that is correct. And um, so to work with an unreached people group, to work anywhere, language is so vital. We dug in, and I think the first two years, even like I said, not being able to share the gospel with our neighbors, led us to be passionate about learning the language so that we could speak to people. I felt like we got the language fairly quickly. Unfair to Cindy having a baby during the midstup and watching another baby, but um, we did move on, and at the end of our language, we began trying to engage and reach an unreached and unengaged people group.

SPEAKER_00

So, for language study, we actually went to a language school as well. So they had a program set up where we were going five days a week, studying for four hours at the school, and then in the afternoons, we were supposed to go out and practice our language. So it was really our full-time job for that almost a year time. That was all that we were supposed to do. All that, well, we needed to be involved in church and we needed to be involved in the community, trying to get to know our neighbors, though. Practicing what we were learning at language school was to help make us ready for whenever we would move on. Because after being in the capital city and studying language, then we were going to move to a rural setting where we were not with other people that could speak English. And that was a challenge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so landing in the new location, a very, very rural setting. We were the only all-Caucasian family at the time in that city. And then just day after day trying to figure out what your day looks like now with an unengaged, unreached people group, you're going out and you're just sharing the gospel. You're getting to know the people, you're doing a lot of research to know about their history and traditions. And are there any bridges to the gospel? How can you relate to them? How can Jesus be attractive to them?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What? So let's talk about really quick. You you've moved to this rural, rural part of Southeast Asia to an unreached people group. Let's define that really quick and help people understand what it means for a group to be unreached, unengaged, unreached, and what it looks like to take the gospel to them.

Who Are The Unreached Here?

SPEAKER_03

So unreached is less than 2% professing to be Christian. Unengaged mean no one is working with them. And our specific people group, no one uh was sharing the gospel with them directly. No one was engaging that particular people group. Uh, it was a small people group of about a half a million people. Um what was their religious demographic? Uh many of them would claim to be Buddhist. However, uh when you get in deeper, you'll find they're animist more. They worship spirits and uh and had a fear of spirits. A fear of spirits, right? So we tried to use that as a bit of a bridge sharing the Holy Spirit is more powerful and good. So they feared spirits, uh, they tried to appease them with sacrifices and things. And so that was their background, uh a fear of the spiritual world.

SPEAKER_01

What was at the time the level of the number of believers, I guess, to your knowledge of the people, and how long was it before you shared the gospel and somebody came to Christ, or you even just ran into somebody who had known about Christ?

SPEAKER_03

To the best of my knowledge, there were probably between 100 and 150 believers out of the 500,000 in the world. And I think some of those would find themselves in other countries where they met Jesus. So I met the first person I ever met that was a believer inside that people group, had come in from another country to be trained. And I got to interview him for a little bit and just share. I was so excited to meet a believer from this people group. And I wanted to know how on earth did Jesus reach you with your background and all the things you've dealt with. And he started sharing, and he said, his sister had come to the United States of America and had accepted Christ here. And it was so funny. He said, I think she's in the Amazon, and I think he meant Arizona, but you know, because there's no Amazon in the United States. But she then took it upon herself to travel back to Southeast Asia and share the gospel with 30 of her family members. Wow. And I believe almost all of the 30 accepted Christ. So this man, an older man, was sharing with me. And here's another thing it's very odd to have a younger sibling share the gospel with this older sibling in Asia, and the older sibling even listened to them. He did, he heard and he believed. So he's the first of that people group we ever saw. And that was an encouragement to go on. And I love talking to the people and finding out what did you hear that changed your life? Um, how did Jesus make himself real to you? And it's different in every situation. Same with us in the United States.

Bridges To The Gospel

SPEAKER_01

We we have different things that obviously attracts us to the gospel, but um it's that's that's really good though, because we we had a guest speaker on campus recently and he spoke in one of our evangelism classes and talked a lot about we, with our formulaic attempts at evangelism, will try to answer a question that the people we are sharing with aren't even asking. Right. And so that's more or less what you're hinting on there is figuring out in what way will the gospel speak to these people? Because we know it will. Right. Scripture tells us it will, and the gospel is the power of God for salvation. So figuring out, using listening, right? Listening and using our ears to see, okay, where where are these bridges? So what and what did they say? How what was their answer?

SPEAKER_03

Um, in his case, uh, it was no real clear presentation of how his sister what she shared with him. But I think the fact that it came from a family member as opposed to someone coming from a different continent, someone coming from a different background. So it was real by the actual just sharing from a family member. And um, to your point, I think I was very arrogant when it went over and I had a formulaic way to share the gospel. And as I visited with different uh Christians to hear how they were sharing, and the the one that I heard that I thought did it best locally there, I was arrogantly saying how I shared the gospel. And he said, I tend to listen first. And that was so impactful. It was a it was a slap in the face, really, but it was so good. So I found myself more and more just hearing how people accepted Christ. What did they hear? What did they do? And just like in the United States and other countries, it is it's different for each individual, but to be able to hear in the midst of their background of Buddhism and animism what it took for them to hear the gospel. So I found myself interviewing people more and more, and just I would spend time with believers. I want to know how on earth did God reach you. Um, it's unfair to me that I was raised in a Christian family and I heard the gospel so many times, even though I felt like I didn't hear the gospel until that one particular opportunity. I did hear stories from God's word. God's word was open to me. So to be born into an animistic background and then to hear the gospel and to believe is just it seems like a bigger miracle than it was for me to believe, but it's all miraculous.

Finding People Of Peace

SPEAKER_00

A lot of times we've heard too that it takes hearing the gospel at least seven times before it really clicks for people. So there has to be a lot of seed sowing to see results. Just because people, it's it's so different from what they know. And it it takes time to to really share and for them to think through what are what this means for them because it is a big life change. It's um Buddhism a lot of times is very cultural, and they'll say that to be the people that they are, they have to be Buddhist. And so it really affects their mindset and view on the world to consider becoming a Christian.

SPEAKER_03

One of the first uh women we we got to see come to Jesus in our ministry, it still can't be based on just the first, I wasn't the first person to tell them about it. She was nearly 80 years old. And when I started sharing with her, she mentioned that someone shared with her at school when she was probably five or six years old about the creator God. She remembered it. She remembered it. She did not believe, but it was in her head, it was in her heart for 75 years. And it also makes me think, what was that missionary like? What how did they get to this part of Southeast Asia? Did they travel by elephant or what? How did they find their way to this person? Because roads wouldn't have been as common, cars wouldn't have been as common. And I just think of that. We built upon someone else's legacy. And there's nothing I've done that's led someone to Christ. It's the Holy Spirit, but even beyond that, it's the faithful that have gone before. And like she said earlier, it's it's a matter of hearing the gospel multiple times for some of them. There are those that hear it the first time and believe, though.

SPEAKER_01

So there's a lot in there that I want to unpack. Uh, because there's so many great things that our our listeners could hear and pick up. I want to talk for a second about person apiece. Would you for a second kind of define what per like person apiece model is? My question would be that family of 30 or that the the sister, the brother who believed, would would any of them fall into that category for your time of ministry there? If not, were you all able to find people of peace in your ministry in that time?

SPEAKER_03

Um, yes, we found people of peace. Uh no, I never met that man again. Okay. I was a one-time opportunity. It was incredible, it was encouraging. But later on, um, one particular instance, looking for people of peace. Um, I don't know, but they talked about it a lot. You know, we did training on it, looking for this person of peace. I was in one village one time. Looking back on, I see things better in hindsight than I do in actual live situations. But uh, we even went to one of the Buddhist temples. Someone said they knew this person, the lead abbot basically of the temple. And when I walked in to this person, this man, of course, um, he looked at me and pointed at me, said, I just had a vision that you were going to come share with me about God. And I said, Well, let's get started. But in my conversation with this monk who's proclaiming Buddhism to the people, um, he said over and over again, you know, come back to my village, tell people about Jesus, but don't do it once. Do it over and over again. They won't understand the first time you tell them. Keep coming back and telling me about Jesus. What an odd place to find a person of peace in a Buddhist temple.

Costs, Culture, And Persecution

SPEAKER_01

Did he believe? No. But he was adamant that you would go and share with his people. Continue coming back to his small village, yes.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. I'm in awe too. I I mean, I have no response to that. Do you have any idea for him? Right.

SPEAKER_01

What were his barriers? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03

I would honestly assume, as Cindy alluded to earlier, our our people would say that to be their people is to be Buddhist. And anything out of that is a big, big step for them. So I think that, and in addition to be the lead Buddhist monk in a temple, is just it's an absolute huge barrier for him to overcome. He would have been defrocked, he would have had to come out. I think that's still a God thing. I mean, God can make it happen, but uh he didn't choose. At least at that time, I have no clue what he's doing right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So what then does conversion look like? Is that legal, illegal? Is it legal to share? What does persecution look like in terms of, hey, I was a Buddhist, now I'm a believer. Does my family disown me? Does my job fire me? What does life look like?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it is, they do have freedom of religion in our country. So it is okay to proclaim the gospel, it's okay to um not be Buddhist, it's okay to be a Christian, but it is a very culture set mindset, even. Any of the events that happen at in the villages, a lot of times they happen at the temple. And so if the believers don't want to enter the temple to participate in the community events because they are related to a religious ceremony or something for Buddhism, then they're kind of looked down on because they're not participating in the village celebration. But it's a Buddhist celebration, so they don't want to participate. And so it creates some barriers. And I think that um a lot of the persecution is more of a cultural persecution, kind of a uh some people have said that the kids can no longer be a part of their family and kicked them out. Sometimes maybe a store owner won't want to, or a small shop owner won't want to sell candy or small items to the people that have become Christians. So a lot of it is more of a cultural person or a society persecution.

SPEAKER_03

They're ostracized more than anything. Um in small, small villages, um, well, like I said before, Buddhism is the cover. There's animism below it and spiritual.

SPEAKER_01

Can we just unpack all of that? Like what is what is Buddhism, at least in a general sense. We don't have to spend right an hour diving into it. What is Buddhism and animism and how it plays into the lives of this people group? Right?

Buddhism, Animism, And Generations

SPEAKER_03

Buddhism, um, they follow the teachings of Buddha. Um, it's very merit-based, karma-based. So uh without going very deep into it, they feel like they have to do good things to cover the bad things they've done in their lives. Um and is is that enough of uh Buddhism? I mean, it's it goes much deeper than that. I hate to, I'm not by any way trying to belittle their teachings, but it's very uh merit-based. So they're trying to do good things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I read I read a book a couple of years ago, and I I'll never forget one specific section in in the book where it was talking about merit and earning merit, and it talked about it in context of you are continuously losing merit. And so there's this idea that no matter what you do, you can never earn enough good merit because you have to be intentional to do that, whereas you're constantly losing merit if you're not gaining merit. Is that is that fair a fair thought process for I think so.

SPEAKER_03

Um there is a book and it's on the teachings of Buddha, and it's supposedly actual teachings of Buddha, and one particular phrase comes out of it is merit is merit and sin is sin, and merit cannot take away your sin. So that's even further than what you just said, right? There's no way to cover the sin that you've done, even by doing a lot of merit. So it becomes hopeless the more you know. In some cases, I've seen people study Buddhism more, and that's what's led them to Jesus. I don't know that I regularly pray that people study Buddhism more and get deeper into Buddhism, but I think there's a point when it doesn't work. And so then they they're seeking. And oftentimes the most religious people I've met in our country, it I feel like they're seekers and they're passionate about. And so I pray for them that that when they're seeking it, they will truly find the truth. So, yes, Buddhism is a karma and merit-based system, and there is no way out, is the best way I can describe what I've learned about Buddhism.

SPEAKER_00

But also because of the way that the culture is, it becomes more of a cultural Buddhism.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So it's this is what my parents have done, this is what I'm gonna do, and this is what my kids are gonna do. It's more of not knowing all of the teachings of Buddha, it's not knowing why they do what they do, it's just this is what we do because this is what we do.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And so it it does follow that. They but then to bring in the animism side of that, um, they will tie ribbons around trees, they'll um do all kinds of things, try they have spirit houses out in front of their house so that the spirits will live in that little house where they'll put a bottle of pop and some rice or something as an offering to the spirits to keep the spirits in the house so they don't come into the big house with the people. And so they're always trying to find a way to keep the spirits happy, which is the whole side of the animism thing, even though that doesn't necessarily link up with what Buddhism should teach.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And animism is a very broad catch-all. Uh many people use it in talking about ancestor worship and things like this, often the spiritual realm like that. In our particular case, what we saw was 20-something evil spirits or spirits that they tried to appease. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What is what are the generational differences with your the 80-year-old lady you talked to versus a 15 to 25-year-old Southeast Asian and how Buddhism, animism plays into it all.

Evangelism Shifts With Youth

SPEAKER_03

So the older generations, I think we could do a direct comparison with the United States of America. Many times what we have seen, but the older generations were very devout following religion. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a specific relationship, but they're very devout. The older generations in most of the places we've seen in Southeast Asia are still very devout. You come down to the younger generations, especially college age, they're exploring, and many of them become non-religious at all. They will, and when I interview them, they will say they don't believe in anything. Um, I am grateful to see at Oklahoma Baptist University, that's not the case amongst some of our university students, uh, the bulk of the university students running around campus. Um, but that's what I see is generationally the lessening of religion and devout Buddhism, too.

SPEAKER_01

Does that make evangelism easier or harder or just different?

SPEAKER_03

Totally different. In some ways, I feel harder. I felt like earlier when I saw someone seeking religious things that they were reaching out and there would be a way to reach them. When someone else says, I believe in nothing, um, that's a whole nother point for me to start from, I guess. And I just need to learn more of how to approach them, the new bridge that I need. Um, yeah. I I think the the religious people, there's a there's a bridge to start with. When they know Buddhism, I have a starting point. When they have nothing, it's a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_01

What is what is the deconstructing factor for the younger generation? I mean, maybe you don't know, maybe you haven't thought about that. Because I I had a conversation with with a friend last night, honestly, and he very clearly grew up in Christianity, walked away from faith. And there's this whole trend in the US. You can look up people's YouTube videos all the time, um, my deconstruction journey and how they walked away from faith. Or like, was it is there something that you can point to, whether it be the internet and global connectivity, or just they don't, they're sick and tired of watching their grandparents do X, Y, and Z and not getting anything from it. Like, can you point to anything?

SPEAKER_03

I I can't clearly point to it, but I would say yes, the globalization, the internet has definitely played a part. Where it could be a fabulous tool for us as believers, it seems to have numbed them. And they just don't believe anymore. And and that's fine when it comes to Buddhism because the more research I've done, I just don't see how it solves the problem anyway. That's obviously why I'm very grateful for Jesus Christ. There is a solution to my sin problem. But yes, I as far as I can tell, it comes along with the generation where internet has been prevalent. I don't see it as much in the 40, 50 year olds as I do in the 18, 25-year-olds. Yeah.

Storying And English Camps

SPEAKER_00

I I think some of it might to play into the whole idea of social media and what you're presenting to the world. You can present a veneer of what you want everybody to see on your social media accounts. And the pictures that you post and the words that you say, they it changes um it makes it where you don't have as much depth, maybe. So you don't really worry about what's inside. You're just worried about what everybody can see.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe I can see that. I don't have enough information to say why. Yeah, that that's not it does look like people are trying to put their best picture forward, I guess. I like your veneer idea.

SPEAKER_01

So, what have been, I guess, in 10 years where you all were doing um ministry with this unreached people group, what strategies, tools, tactics were beneficial for you guys? What things worked well, didn't work well, and how did you work through all that?

SPEAKER_03

Um, one of the neatest things that we eventually were trained in and used were was chronological Bible storying. Um I was I was raised in the United States of America. I'm not a big oral learner. I read and I write and things like that, but different generations are not so um well-versed. They don't read for fun like some of us do.

SPEAKER_00

The culture of our people grew up was not to read.

SPEAKER_03

Definitely. And and their own specific language did not have a written form. So it was spoken only. So they've lost any of that. They did use a trade language to read and write, but in they were not illiterate generally, but they were functionally illiterate. So when I was trained in Bible storying, number one, at the training, I was impacted as a Western believer to hear all of those stories one day. It took about an hour and a half to do 25 Bible stories back to back. But when those Bible stories were told back to back, the story of God's word just came to life for me as a Western believer and have be having been a Christian since I was 14 years old. So taking that, I would go to villages, uh, multiple different villages, and I would share Bible stories. I was most amazed in one particular instance, the television is the enemy, or the computer and the internet is the enemy of sometimes sharing the gospel. It interrupts what we're doing. I was sharing with one particular man who was bedridden and he had his TV on. The first time I shared with him, TV stayed on the entire time. So I got to share with his family, not him. The next time I came and I started with this is a true story from God's word. And as I started to share, the remote came up, TV went off, and he kind of scooched to the ed of his edge of his bed to listen. God's word is attractive. So um for me, it was Bible story was just telling God's word, making it it is attractive, but making it attractive too, sharing God's word in an exciting manner. So Bible storing was a breakthrough for me in doing ministry with this unreached people group.

SPEAKER_00

We also um did English camps because the schools and the community they want Their students to learn English. So at OBU, I minored in TESOL teaching English to speakers of other languages because I knew that that would be a tool that I could probably use on the mission field. And so that opened up opportunities for us to go into the public schools of elementaries or high school age students. And we were able to use Bible stories and we were able to share songs. We were able to share about Christmas because they want to know about American holidays. And so we were able to use that as a bridge to get into the school. And we would even tell the principals we're going to be sharing the gospel. And they were like, okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03

As long as you teach English.

Walking The Missionary Task Stages

SPEAKER_00

As long as we're teaching English, that's all that mattered. So we would make sure that all of our English teaching included gospel presentation. And that was a neat way for me to be involved in ministry was to be able to use those things that I had learned to be able to share with the students and um prepare English camps and things like that.

SPEAKER_03

And sharing the gospel with 900 to a thousand students at one shot is pretty awesome. Oftentimes we'd have smaller English camps with uh 100 or something like that. But yeah, English camps were a great seed sowing method.

SPEAKER_01

So let's let's talk for just a second about the missionary task and what that looks like. What are the the factors of it? Um, because we're we're talking about pieces of it, but maybe some people in our audience may not know what the missionary task is.

SPEAKER_00

So the first stage is entry, and that includes um learning the language, being able to communicate, and um finding entry into your people or into the area where you're working. And since we were working with an unreached people group, we um were trying to get into several different little villages, and so some of the English camps and things like that was getting our foot in the door, looking for people who were interested, trying to find opportunities to share. Um then you move on to evangelism and uh presentation, right? And so we were able to um share in different areas once we had gotten or once we knew that people were interested in hearing the gospel, we were able to share with them and then see if they wanted us to come back. And we started doing little um house church almost, but they wouldn't really be a church, there they weren't large groups by any means. It was three or four people in one location kind of house church situation. So then we needed to move on to discipleship. So the believers that we had gathered and were doing our little house churches with. Um since William was using Bible storing, he was able to teach those stories during our worship times and then challenge the believers that were there to share the stories. Then that's part of Bible storing is that you don't just listen to it, you also share it.

SPEAKER_03

I was amazed in Bible storing too, um, how simple questions led to such such deep conversations with new believers. So that was a constant, that was a part of our discipleship. Was we were just studying God's word directly through Bible story, and then with simple questions, drawing them out in discipleship.

SPEAKER_00

You have some of the simple questions.

SPEAKER_03

Um, what did you like from this story? What did you not? What did you learn about God? What did you learn about man? How are you gonna remember this story? There's only one answer you're gonna tell someone else. And uh then the next question was who are you gonna share with? So very, very simple questions, but the depth of conversation that happened in the midst of that was was our discipleship method, but it was also just it was encouraging me to hear what they got from a simple Bible story.

Dreams, Delays, And Dependence On God

SPEAKER_00

And then from discipleship, you start church formation and you move on to church leadership. We didn't ever really get that far in our ministry among our unreached people group. A lot of the believers were women, and um it was it remained small, so we never made it past getting to a real church formation kind of situation. And then um we reached a stage in our lives and our ministry where we had to move on. We moved on to a new role, and so that meant that we left that ministry, we left the believers that we had worked with and um continue to pray for them that they're staying strong in their faith and still following him. While we were there, we even had some teammates come along, and that was an encouragement to us because it is very hard to be in a rule setting to be anywhere on your own, kind of. And so to have different teammates come along during our ministry time there for those 10 years we were with the Unreach People Group, that was really encouraging to have that and see what came of that. We had volunteers on short-term mission trips come and work with us too, and that is always neat. And from one of those trips, even was where we got some of our teammates.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So let's let's wrap up. I think kind of this first term and what you all what you all did. What things have we not touched on yet that maybe stick out to you all from that first term? Highs, lows, just awesome stories of the Lord working.

SPEAKER_03

Final thoughts. Wow, so many things from that time with the Unreach People Group. Just seeing God work when, well, coming from the United States of America and my faith too, I had not seen people that had visions or dreams. And I definitely didn't pray for that to happen in my people immediately. I kept hearing of other people doing that in different places. But eventually, at some point, uh, the first instance, someone had a dream or vision without me praying for them to have it. God was in charge. And that just reminded me that that was a possibility. And then in other opportunities to witness to people, I realized, say, an 80-year-old man, I have a specific story, sharing the gospel with him is the first time he'd heard it and he was not ready to believe. And it was in the middle of me talking, and once again, that God stopped me and said, This is my job, not yours. And so we stopped and I said, Would you believe if if Jesus showed up and told you he was real, you know, or the Holy Spirit or God, however that was going to be manifested? And um, he said, sure, I would. So we prayed. And I prayed for him to have a dream or vision there with him. He did tell me I could stop praying at some point because I was going on a little long for him. But then at the end, uh we returned back two days later, and I said, Grandpa, did you did Jesus show up? And he said, Yes, he did. And I said, Well, are you ready to believe? And he said, No. So wow. I'm encouraged by the story, even though it's terrible. I'm encouraged. God showed up, God did his part. I did what I was supposed to do. I was trying to convince him to believe, but that wasn't my job. I had to stop and let the Holy Spirit do his job. And he did. God is faithful. Um, the man still did not believe, not at that time, at least. Um, so I'd like to think from that time I've learned to see God in different places than I had expected him before. And then also, it was very hard. So you don't talk about lows. Being isolated was rough. When people had come to visit, it was amazing. It was a long drive to get to where we were.

SPEAKER_00

And we weren't near any airports. No airports, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it was definitely a drive.

SPEAKER_00

It's like you could fly in, but then you still had to travel three hours by vehicle to get to us.

Isolation, Endurance, And Hope

SPEAKER_03

And but to go to an unreached people group and try to engage them for the first time. Starting from zero to one is a very hard thing to do. And it was often discouraging. But the little looking back on it, I have some very fond memories of the stories, the times, definitely the people. I absolutely love those people. I get to go back on occasion to this day and go back to those villages. I absolutely love that. But um, yeah, it was very difficult. So endure. There are countless stories of missionaries who have endured and seven years of no fruit, eight years of no fruit, and then they see some incredible things. Um, yeah, I'm not sure about the incredible things, but I've heard other people's stories that they don't get to hear. I've heard the fruit being uh delivered years later, and that person's gone. And then I hear people have believed and they tell a story of a previous missionary. So I have hope for those that have gone before.

SPEAKER_00

I think it just comes down to we need to be faithful, share the gospel, be involved, and we may not see it, but God is in control and God will use what we do just to proclaim the gospel.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you all for your time today, and we're gonna pick this up again here. Who knows? Pretty shortly, I assume. But thank you all. Thanks for listening to this episode. The Tom L's intermissions exist to equip the next generation of missionaries at Commandant University. Regardless of your major, you can come to OBU to get a world-class Christian education and get a question technical nature.