Many of us feel pressure to be perfect during our job interviews and On to employment. I Wonder why. I know as a past executive recruiter, director of town acquisition, I've talked to a lot of people. I've never tried to find someone who's perfect. I just want people who have the right skills for the job. But why do we feel that pressure? Why do we get so nervous for a job interview or even once you hit submit on that resume that you've tried to polish? Well, Dr. Gregory Chasson is here to help. an esteemed psychologist, board certified cognitive behavioral therapist, researcher, educator, and internationally invited speaker. Through his rich and diverse experience, he has imparted transformational insights and strategies around the globe to help communities, and individuals like you address health challenges, such as perfectionism by using practical and feasible strategies. His brand new book, Flawed offers practical solutions about in the workplace. I love that book titled Flawed. Dr. Chaston,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453to the job interview experience.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453you talk about how perfectionism can be a double edged sword in the workplace. Can you elaborate a little bit on why some employers seem to see it as an asset while it can actually create some problems?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Absolutely, I do think it's a double edged sword in that there are lots of strong qualities that you want in a Perfectionistic employee that you want to leverage. There's no doubt about it. There's a reason that this is often used as a cavalier response to the question, what is your greatest weakness? And the reason is because there are positive features of perfectionism. People try to spin that response so that it sounds like a strength when they're being asked about a weakness, a bit of a clever,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453that in an interview before. No one's ever said that to me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Well, it's, I've heard it plenty of times. Yeah. It's sort of a cliche, tired response and you know, you're almost expecting it out the gate. And the truth is when you hear it as somebody that has some training or background in perfectionism, it actually makes you wince. Like I wince when I hear this because actually perfectionism can be quite a challenge. It can be quite paralyzing for people. So be careful with this particular strategy if the person knows a little bit about perfectionism, you could be shooting yourself in the foot a bit but it is a double edged sword. There are tremendously positive qualities that come with somebody that has perfectionistic tendencies. They tend to be very loyal. They tend to be very honest. They're some of the hardest working people you'll ever meet. They have a tremendously good attention to detail. Oh, and conscientiousness. My goodness, this is probably the strongest feature. And, you know, if you were to take those ingredients, most people, most employers would say, Give me that. That sounds amazing. The problem is that sometimes it's so intense, it becomes so problematic, that it becomes paralyzing. It stops people from moving forward. They get stuck in things like the process of doing tasks. They get stuck in procrastination, which is a really common feature. They become stuck on the rules instead of the principles, and they have trouble seeing the big picture. And I'm happy to elaborate on some of these, but my book goes through a lot of this, and I think the last chapter is something that people miss or the second to last chapter, the last two chapters, is when it extends outward and becomes moralistic, people can become a little bit self righteous, and I think that's what really creates a toxic culture in the work environment.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453well said and to help with the rest of our conversation. Is there a way to identify who's actually a perfectionist versus people who say, I'm a perfectionist because of a picture is crooked, then it bothers me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Mm,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453and I've seen this with OCD as well. People say, Oh, I'm OCD. It's like, well, I think that there's actually probably a deeper level to identifying that than maybe even liking your bathroom sink to be clean. Right?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453right.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453With perfectionism, how do we identify when people use it as kind of a vague weakness that they have that's, as you've showed and said is, is actually maybe a kind of a strength. People who like things to be good, but they don't actually struggle with it at that level versus your understanding of what a perfectionist actually is. What's the difference there?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Superb question. They're often confused. Where do you draw the line? I would say the two ingredients that I look for, cognitive rigidity. How rigid is the individual with their thinking? Can they think outside the box? Can they adapt? Can they pivot? That's it. are they able to shift? And if they can't, that's usually a bit of a red flag that there's some problematic perfectionism going on. I would say that's probably the number one ingredient of perfectionism that separates it from something like high expectations. Really those are the two things we're talking about, perfectionism versus high expectations. High expectations are not rigid, you accommodate it, you adjust when needed. If the environment tells you that it's impossible, you make the shift, but people with perfectionism, they have a difficult time doing that. They get sort of stuck. It's like trying to turn the Titanic before it hits the iceberg. And the other ingredient is just the excessive nature of the expectations. So is the sales target unreasonable? Is the product deadline unreasonable? You combine those two ingredients, you can see where it can become pretty problematic, right? If somebody is really rigid about their thinking and their approach, and their expectations are rigid, you put those two things together and somebody is extremely unlikely to shift these unreasonable expectations. And so it's like essentially talking to a brick wall. Somebody is in a really difficult time Pivoting and adjusting, and it could get them into trouble. It sours the workplace around people as well. So I look for those two things. I look for cognitive rigidity, and I look for excessive unreasonable expectations. And when those two things are together, in particular, I think that's a pretty big red flag.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453as you're speaking, I'm getting more ideas of how perfectionism can impact a job search, and it's broadened just from hearing you speak. I think about resumes, which maybe perfectionism is a good quality there,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Letters. I also wonder, do you see overlap between, Paralysis by analysis,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Would you see a perfectionist maybe not applying to jobs because they're not seeing perfect fit for them? Could you dig into how that can hurt job seekers instead of help them?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Absolutely. In fact, in the book, I have an entire chapter on something called process paralysis, which is very similar to analysis by paralysis or, you know, the idea that people get stuck on the process doing optimal steps, the optimal order of steps, the perfect strategy, getting stuck on even getting started. Can be a paralyzing process and what you combine that with just getting stuck analyzing and you get those two things going and somebody might not even get off the bench to play the game, right? And that's exactly the problem that you see with job seekers, right? They'll be looking for the optimal or perfect job and they'll get stuck on that on trying to perfect the process. So you talk about a resume. I actually think the resume is a terrible place to look for perfectionists because we're all sort of wired or sort of brainwashed to think that the resume needs to be perfect? Any typo, any weird spacing,? Microsoft Word will give you a hard time and you'll sit there for hours trying to figure out how the formatting is working? Instead of applying for the job. But I think the resume is a place where people will do get critiqued for imperfections. And I, so I would suggest not looking at the resume for evidence of perfection. I think in that case, everyone would look like a perfectionist. References tend to be difficult to talk to you about this because You know, who's, who's gonna, like, come out and say, out the gate and say, Oh yeah, this person gets paralyzed by their perfectionism. In general, if there are clues from a reference, it's probably subtle. You know, that they tend to be focused on the details. Perhaps they might suggest something like they get emphatic about the process or that they're very interested in making sure that there's an efficiency to everything. I think people get stuck on efficiency quite a lot. You also brought up an interesting concept that I talk about in the book as well, which is this feeling called not just right feelings. Also called not just right experiences or NJRF or NJREs. You see it on the ground like in the trenches with things like I need to get this just right before I could submit it I need to get the margins just right. I need to make this sentence feel just right before I move on I think this probably happens in the job seeking Sector as well, right if you're looking for the perfect job, you might get stuck saying well, okay this hits 90 percent but it's not that extra 10 percent doesn't really sound like me or it doesn't feel like me Just right. And to me, that would be a mistake. you miss every shot you don't take says the famous Wayne Gretzky. I think this is a case where if you're fitting 90 percent and a gut reaction is it doesn't feel right is what's stopping you. I think you're making a mistake.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453I think we attribute that quote to Michael Scott now.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Oh, do we? Okay. Yeah. Michael Scott. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Can you think of examples of competing qualities perfectionism and something else where maybe they do help create a balance or maybe the opposite?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453I think what you're describing are the features of a productive quality worker, pursuing perfection isn't inherently bad. It's really the rigidity and the excessiveness of the expectations that are the problem. And I think the problem with perfectionists is that they're too extreme on one end. So I have a framework that I use called the Emphasis Framework. And I see it as a way of explaining and thinking about task prioritization. And I think it's a framework for understanding perfectionism in general. People with perfectionism tend to give up. Everything, what I call Emphasis A, which is 110%, they give it their all, they lean in and they leave nothing behind, right? And the problem is, is they do this for everything, not just the things that are important or important to them. And so there are other strategies. Emphasis B, on the other hand, is the get or done strategy, right? And I hear you a little bit talking about the get or done strategy, just be decisive, get or done. Move on, worry about the accountability later, or even just deal with it, right? But there's also even an emphasis C. Emphasis C is choosing not to do it at all. And there's a time and place for all three of these. Emphasis A really should be guided by your values. So if you could take one message home today, it is values, values, values. What is important to you, what is important to your organization, What is important to the other things in your life, like your marriage, your parenting, what's important to you. And of course, what's important to your spouse, for example, is also important to you, not because you care about what they care about, but because you care about your relationship with your wife, or your spouse. And so there's a time and place for all three of these. There's a time and place for emphasis A, like if you're studying for the LSAT, you're trying to go to law school or you're putting your resume together, that could be a plan A, or an emphasis A response. The emphasis B approach, however, is usually the best strategy for most things in life. There's no way to emphasis A everything. It's impossible. And then there's a time and place for emphasis C all the time. I don't open mail that I know is junk mail. I just don't even do it. I strategically decide it's not worth my energy. It's not valuable to me. Sorry for all the mass mailers out there, but I don't open your mail. And, I don't answer the customer service satisfaction survey at the end of the call. it's not important to me. And so you have strategically decided what to place your emphasis on. Perfectionism is all about over emphasizing a doing way too much effort for everything not discriminating what needs less effort and then it what happens is that you can't sustain that and it forces you to the emphasis c so instead of emphasis c being based on your values and what's strategic it's forced on you so the perfectionism has dictated your priorities not you or your values and so i really encourage people to use your values as a compass for what that, what needs those different delineations.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453That's fascinating. I've never thought of it framed that way, but I can see how even a perfectionist could train themselves to say will emphasis be work here? If so, I've learned to move that direction you have any stats on what percent of maybe the US or world population are truly? perfectionists
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453I don't have that data on me, although there is research It's very difficult to quantify, because we all fall somewhere on this spectrum. Where do you draw the line? And where you draw the line is then going to determine whether or not you have quote unquote Perfectionism. So I don't see it so categorically like that, which is probably why I don't have a good estimate for you.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Let's speak to that portion that are perfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453say that they are going to their job interview and they're going to be asked the strengths and weaknesses question. They actually are perfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Saying you're a perfectionist is not a strategic approach, it's just overuse, it's a cliche,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453are, my guess is, even if you truly are, if you have a certificate on the wall that says you are a certified perfectionist, it's still not the best response. How would you coach our perfectionist job seeker when they're asked about their weakness, and it is perfectionism, how do you navigate that conversation?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Very carefully. I think, that if someone on the other end knows exactly what that word means and what it entails, you need to be very careful about how you describe it. I do think it's, again, overused and tired, so I would maybe encourage you to think of another way of describing strategies or difficulties that come with perfectionism. And you can highlight a component of perfectionism without using that word and by being genuine and honest. So I always encourage people to be authentic in an interview, but you also want to be strategic about what you're saying. Like what authentic self you present you know, and I think if you were to describe yourself as someone who tends to struggle with knowing when to call it quits, for example, right? That you tend to have a difficult time knowing how to balance work and life or that you sometimes get overzealous and excited about something and have a hard time Moving on to the next thing, right? There are ways of framing it that I think sound a little less problematic and a little less cliched but I do think that it would be wise to take some time and think about how you want to craft that answer. The other thing you could do is pivot entirely and come up with a totally different domain of something that you struggle with because you know, it might be worthwhile to do. Come up with something that's not in this umbrella and, and work with that. And again, if you're truly perfectionistic, you might have a hard time pivoting, right? But if you have some time to prepare, it might be worth giving it a whirl.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453An example of this that I've seen is. You don't have to say you're a perfectionist, but you can say, I've really struggled in my career with not accepting other people's work because it doesn't align with what I would expect out of myself if I did it.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453You know,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453I'm not even saying that's a correct answer, I've seen that in people that are perfectionists where they want to take control of other people's work because it doesn't meet their standards of how. They would perform it for the weaknesses question. I think the best way to navigate that is to start with a weakness that isn't directly correlated to the job and talk about you're fixing it. Because everyone has weaknesses if you are mature enough to identify it, which is step one and then proactive enough to take steps and tell the interviewer how you're fixing it. Nobody's perfect. when you can show that you are identified this, you're humble enough to admit it, and you're actually working to fix it. People who fix their problems, those are the people I like. Those are the people that, continue to grow. Why do you think there's so much pressure and nervousness around job interviews, which are essentially a conversation, as I said in the opening, and pressure to perform without any mistakes. Why do you think we got here, in the job interview world?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453It's an excellent question. I think it's a series of different variables. Not the least of which is the culture that we're in. Sort of a toxic achievement culture. This expectation that you are, you know, this sterling person with no weaknesses. I've yet to meet anybody like that, but you tell me if you do. They just don't exist in my mind. But we tend to have this fantasy that they exist and that we need to be one of them. And this culture is pushed on us very early. And the perfectionism takes hold at that point, very early on. And some research on this has shown that perfectionism seems to be growing. over the generations. So this doesn't seem to be going in the right direction. And I think it speaks to what you're saying, is that there's this culture of getting extremely anxious about these interviews and coming across in a perfect way, which, ironically, in a self fulfilling prophecy kind of way, makes you more anxious and then you end up stumbling all over yourself during the interview. it's like the student who tries to be perfect on their essay and never turns it in. it's the same concept where the very fact that you're trying so hard is the actual reason that you're going to fail. And so I often tell people that the culture is self perpetuating and you don't have a ton of control over it. And it's a bit of an illusion, right? In reality, at the one to one level, people don't really expect that of you. And that in some ways can be relieving for people to understand and to hear. And then I go back to my framework. Right? I tell people to emphasis B the daylights out of it. Go into the interview, be authentic, be yourself, and emphasis B any preparation that you need to do. Right? it's a risk. It absolutely is a risk. Anything that you do. where you think it should be Emphasis A and you end up Emphasis B, or Emphasis C ing it, it's a risk. But I suggest that it's a risk that frees you from having to constantly be worrying about this.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453So, let's say a listener. Here's our conversation. they get the job
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Right. Congratulations.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453congratulations.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453we have your framework, the ABC, but do you have any other practical strategies they can employ once they start this new job to avoid getting bogged down by their perfectionism in a new role?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yeah, so I would suggest, and I talk about this in F. L. A. W. D., there are a series of chapters that go into different strategies, and I think it's good for the perfectionistic employee. Although it's written for the perfectionistic leader to work with a perfectionistic employee, I think you could reverse it and very easily glean information from it, as somebody who identifies as a perfectionist. So I talk about not getting bogged down on the process. the need for optimal steps, the need for optimal strategies, and how to work around that. Not getting stuck in seeking reassurance and overchecking and leaning on the people around you. Which can create a burden and a sort of toxic environment around you. You know, if you ask somebody to check over your email 40 times, they're going to get pretty tired of you, right? there are these social capital components that we need to think about in a work environment. Your anxiety might drive you to want to get help from people as a crutch, but that has a cost every time you do that. In the book, I also bring up this hyper focus on rules versus principles and values. people with perfectionism tend to stumble over this. They get stuck on rules, even when those rules are driven by principle, and by getting so stuck on the rules that they're actually violating the underlying principle. Right? If somebody is getting super rigid about a co worker who's being late, they had a flat tire, they couldn't make it in on time, and the co worker comes in and says, Yup, you violated the handbook on being here on time. Well, that rule is probably designed to stop people from abusing And being too loosey goosey when they show up to work. But it wasn't designed for somebody that has a bonafide real good reason to be late to work. And so when someone comes in and dismisses the big picture of the principle, and gets stuck enforcing the rules this causes tremendous problems in the workplace. And so perfectionists tend to get stuck on these rules at the expense of the principle, and I try to Help people identify that and then give them some strategies for zooming out, asking themselves what is the principle of this, you know, as a strategy.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Can you share impactful insights from the book that you think can benefit job seekers, leaders, employers, employees alike?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453I think the bottom line of the book is around cognitive flexibility and really values. If you can think about those two messages to take from the book. I think this book could apply to almost any facet of life. You just can't write a book for every facet of life because no one will ever pick it up. It's not specific enough. But, in the workplace, it very much makes sense to be thinking about cognitive rigidity and values. And if you could focus on those two things, and then generalize them to other areas of your life, I think you'll be in a healthier place. Can you be flexible in the way that you're thinking about things? Can you pivot? Can you roll with the punch? you change your tactic? Stick with the strategy, but can you change your tactic? Or if the strategy needs changing, can you recognize that and change your strategy? And all of this is based on your values. You can value achievement, but if that's the only thing you value, you're going to be pretty miserable and the people around you are going to be pretty miserable. Can you create and grow other values in your life? You don't need to get rid of the achievement value, right? You just need to grow other values. You need to diversify your values. And if you could do that, then this achievement need becomes relatively less critical. Not less critical on an absolute level, but relatively speaking. You start to value other things in your life. You start to put energy toward that. And in that sense, you have other things to live for. You have an enriching set of things to be pursuing.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453One of the reasons I was so excited to bring Greg on is with the book Flawed, which again, doesn't just focus on perfectionism, but one of the things I've found important in my life, and I think will help readers is the blind spots we have, recognizing where we're overly rigid or the opposite of that, the balance of all of these things. And your approach and everything I've heard about the book so far has been fantastic. So I'm going to get a copy, I might beg you for one after the call, but where can listeners learn more from you and get a hold of the book?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yeah, thank you for asking. It's the best, probably the easiest way to go is to go to flawed book.com, which is a terrible URL, but my hope is that you'll remember it. Flawed book.com. I guess it's in the spirit of perfectionism, right? Flawed book.com. And you could go there, you could get a link to various places where the book is sold. There's an e-version there's a print version. There's an audio book depending on when you're listening. Summer 2024. And it's, I think it's a great resource for the leader working with perfectionists, and I think it's a great resource even for the person who identifies as somebody with perfectionism. I do gear it towards leaders, but I think it's very easy to flip the script. Think you would read it and really start to understand the areas that you've never considered might be influenced by perfectionism. I've had people read the book and say, Oh my God, I wish I had this 20 years ago.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453That's what I was thinking as well is for those of you, whenever you hear someone talk about something that is geared for leaders, but can be impactful, do it now. Don't wait, because this is a way to, avoid the things that held those leaders back as a future leader. This can help you, smooth the path towards where you want to go. And I've talked about this before on the show. Recognizing your strengths and weaknesses outside of the job interview, but recognizing those and then learning ways to make small improvements. Or even just recognizing them. A lot of times it's the first step because then you can start moving forward. introducing frameworks like the, A, B and C, things like that. It looks like Seth Godin has a recommendation on that. That's a pretty big deal.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yeah, that was quite the email that I got from him. It was, in a lot of ways it just really launched this book for me because I'm relatively new to this arena, and when Seth Godin gives you his endorsement and seems to like your book, it's very energizing, right? For just a moment, you kind of feel perfect, even though it's an illusion. So I have tremendous appreciation for Seth Godin and his thoughts. There are other people like Amy Ebbinson and Tom Curran and,, Jenny Wallace, who wrote Never Enough, like there are people who really have appreciated this book. I think it's because this is a part of the discourse now. You can't get away from it. I'm seeing it in the, New York Times and all over the place. I mean, perfectionism is everywhere, right? I have it coming out of my ears, and I don't think it's going away. I think it's getting worse. And I think that some of these people who have endorsed my book have Seeing how I can offer some clinically relevant evidence based approaches to helping people tackle this. it's not a cure all, but it's certainly, let's bring awareness and let's provide some solutions.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Did you read the audio book version
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453of which one?
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453of Flawed?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453yes, I have.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453Did you have a cold?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453No, oh, did I read it myself? No.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453you narrate it?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453So it's a funny story. I decided to try it and I read the intro, which is three to five pages. I had my best bud edit some of it. He was a sound editor and it took so long. I said, nevermind, I'm not doing this. This is taking so much time and energy. I'm going to outsource this for all of the sound editors and the people who do this for a living. You have my utmost appreciation. I found it extremely difficult. So it's kudos to you. I decided not to do it, although I sounded pretty good, but I ended up going with a professional narrator who also happens to share my name, Greg, so I like him a lot and get a professional editor and I'm very happy so far with the result.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453We will link to flawedbook. com. Is there any other way for listeners to get in contact with you or follow and learn more from you?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yeah, great question. Thank you so much. Go to gregchasson. com. You can join my mailing list for tips and insights. I provide that bi weekly. I promise not to flood your box. There will also be some sneak peeks. I'm thinking about writing some other books. You can also come play with me on social media. I love it. Tag me. Say hello. Talk about my book. Let's get the Discourse on Perfectionism even more energized. And I'd say, I think those are probably the best ways to get a hold of me. I'm pretty open to emails, so shoot me an email. I like to hear from people.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024_100453you being here, but have a feeling that there are a number of listeners that have seen, or will see the title of this episode, the subject matter, and say, Finally, because this isn't something I've spent any time on, nor have I been qualified to do so. So, Thank you for digging in here. I think this is going to make an impact on me and I think it will for listeners too, so I'd encourage them to go get a copy. But in the meantime, can you leave us with some final words of wisdom and encouragement as we maybe do some self realization, take what you've shared here and try and better ourselves and find that better balance that you talk about,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100453Yeah, thank you. I think it's important to leave on a positive note because perfectionism, again, comes with all sorts of beautifully powerful traits, right? Conscientiousness, loyalty, honesty processing of details there are very few people perfectionists. This is not a witch hunt. I would never dream of getting rid of perfectionists in the workplace. These are some of your best workers. It's about how to change your environment, how to change your leadership style to maximize these positive qualities while minimizing some of the difficulties that come with perfectionism. It's not about. Rooting them out or excluding them. It's really not about that at all. I think you're doing yourself a huge disservice if you're trying to wean out or rule out any sort of perfectionist in your workplace. They're your strongest employees. And I think that that's a message to remember. If you're a perfectionist and you're worrying about this, don't forget, this is multi layered. You come in with tremendous strengths a lot of the time, and I would leverage those strengths, don't forget. That's what employers typically are looking for. And if you're really struggling to the point where you can't even apply, you get stuck and you're getting feedback from your employer already that this is not sustainable, go get some professional help. International OCD Foundation, IOCDF. org, you know, we didn't talk about this, but perfectionism often goes along with bona fide OCD. Obsessive compulsive disorder. The people that know how to treat this tend to also be the experts when it comes to OCD, such as myself. Go to the International OCD Foundation, or go to aBCT. com, Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, and go use their tools for finding a therapist. they have a database there. Type in your zip code. And I think the IOCDF even has a little checkbox for perfectionism. So if you're looking for someone specific, you can get the help that you need and leverage those strengths and minimize those limitations.