TailFeathers
Stories about the landscapes, critters, and sounds of the American West and beyond. We like upland hunting, fly fishing, and music and try to engage with those who enjoy the same.
TailFeathers
Red Dirt Unplugged with Josh Crutchmer
Josh Crutchmer is the author of Red Dirt Unplugged, Singers, Songs and Stories Shining a Spotlight on Heartland Roots Music. It's Josh's 3rd book as the unofficially official historian of the Red Dirt music scene. When Josh isn't writing for Rolling Stone, or at his day job with the New York Times, he's deeply embedded in all things Red Dirt.
We chatted several weeks ago and covered just how fast the scene is evolving. Since recording this and finding time to edit it Cross Canadian Ragweed reunited at Mile 0 Fest. In our conversation we talk Wyatt Flores, Grunge, Emo Country, female musicians, under appreciated musicians, Idaho and more.
In an hour we barely scratched the surface, I look forward to following up with Josh down the road and seeing where pen and paper take him next.
I appreciate you taking a, an hour or two out of your day to chat.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:It'll be fun, I think.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. So, uh, you know, I'm super curious of I'm full disclosure. I'm two thirds of the way through the new, the new book. And I tore through the other ones, but yeah, read dirt and plugged. If you haven't read it, it's, uh, It's, it's amazing if you're into the red dirt or country, country music category, Josh is the, uh, I think by now we can call you the official historian of the red dirt genre, is that fair to say?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, I think it probably is at this point. It's probably silly to pretend otherwise.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:So you've got a day job, right? This isn't your, uh, you know, you work for the New York Times, that's kind of a big deal. How the heck did you get from a kid from Oklahoma writing stories about, uh, ragweed in college to working for the Times?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Well, I got, I, you know, I, by the time I was embarked upon a career in journalism, I kind of could tell that, The industry wasn't the, you know, meant that it always was for hundreds of years. And so I eventually just realized that I needed to be, um, someplace where I could be a journalist long term. So I bounced around the country in the 2000s and the 2010s, trying to get to the times. Um, I've spent a lot of that time doing art direction and design. Um, famously it was. In charge of how the uh, Cleveland plane dealer looked when the Cavaliers won the NBA championship among other things Anyway, I did that long enough that it caught the attention of the times and not long after getting to the times in 2017 I realized that I finally had the the means and the time to go back and properly start writing about red dirt and Americana and all this music that I've always thought should be shared with the world on a large scale. Now I get to do it.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And how do you find, like, how many shows did you make it to last year? I'm wondering how you find the time to balance all this.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Well, the good news is that, um, specific job at the New York Times can be done from anywhere. I can Climb into and climb into a tour bus. I can work from a green room, um, just because of the nature of it doesn't really require me to do anything more than know everything that's going on. Um, so that has been really fortunate for me. Um, meanwhile, um, most artists that I find myself. Writing about covering or just running in circles with they tend to not mind if I had ducked away into a green room to write Or to set up something for the time So I say I probably average somewhere between 100 and 125 shows a year that's probably being a little generous because they'll be entire weeks that I'll see multiple shows, but I think I think that's probably a good number to start with.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. And obviously the times doesn't sleep. So you're, you're, you know, anytime, uh, news is breaking, you're, you're on the clock kind of thing. Is that how that works?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I mean, a couple of Sundays ago, I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma at Kane's Ballroom, and Wyatt Flores and I were doing a co hosted event where, um, I was kind of interviewing him on stage, and he was gonna play some acoustic songs and give the story behind them. It was great fun, it was a blast, but, uh, that afternoon, while we're running down the show, I get a notification on my phone that Jimmy Carter died, and I had to go. Stop everything that I was doing on the day of a really big deal for me and for Wyatt, I had to just duck away into the green room and work with the times for several hours. And that's part of the, I signed up for that. I know that's coming. So, um, I'm prepared to do it anytime. I was just kind of thrown off that it happened on that particular day.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:It's Murphy's law, right? I
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Exactly.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:noticed you did mention, uh, you know, there was a kind of a brief quip about over time and bonding with one of the artists and unplugged about, you know, you guys kind of bonded about, uh, working long and odd hours and that sort of thing. And I totally get that
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah. And, um, I think most Most artists at this level, it's not, not 100 most artists at this level and certainly most members of their team understand that because they're all doing the same thing. So, um, it's kind of been easy to relate and for them to relate to me over the years. Um, because you know, their life on the road is on call 24, 7, 2. I think when somebody comes in to their world that does the same thing, I think they understand it.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:way back up just a minute here. If I, if I told you like. 12 months ago that Oklahoma State would finish at the bottom of the Big 12 and we'd be prepping for ragweed, turnpike, sold out stadium shows in the spring. Would you have seen that coming?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:No, I would not have seen that coming. I would have, uh, I would have thought it was far more likely that. Um, the football team would be in a bowl game than anything. And I mean, it's really been just about 11 or 12 months ago this week that. I talked to Cody Canada and put a story in Rolling Stone that said Ragweed will never reunite. So life comes at you fast.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. And you, uh, you mentioned, or there's a lot of, uh, at the time of this publishing in, in unplugged and I'm, I just wonder if you saw how fast things have, have evolved in the red dirt world that you kind of anticipate that at the time of the publishing of the book, things are probably going to even move beyond, you know, some of the interviews you've done and the reporting and, and whatnot. And how do you, how do you cope with that of, you know, Oop, I lost your audio here for a sec,
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:What the hell? All right, trying this again trying this again the entire reason that um, I Wrote Red Dirt Unplugged four years after writing Red Dirt was just because of how fast the scene was moving. Um, and everything was Changing and different and moving at a pace that I'd never really even considered and The day of recording this marks the one month anniversary since Red Dirt Unplugged came out and I feel like I've already missed a hundred things and that's, this is brand new. It's a new feeling in this genre to have it feel this vibrant and fast paced. Um, so, I'm glad, I'm certainly happy with Red Dirt Unplugged and I also, also like, I can already watch it in front of my eyes becoming a little bit obsolete. This is how, how fast the world is moving right now.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Is that just get the creative juices flowing for what's next? I know
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, it does. It makes it easier. Like I don't feel like I have to like be anybody's Wikipedia editor right now. I feel like I can just capture the vibes and that's the fun part about writing and covering anyway. Um, because within a month, the history is going to be rewritten at least right now. I probably won't be that way forever. But, um, you know, there's no point there. There was no point last year. Really? And me bogging down in the details of why it Flores is life because of how fast it was moving and how different of a person he was. In October versus February and then in December versus October. And I like that because I don't have to worry about that. I can just write about cool stuff that I see and take everybody else on that ride too.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And is there anybody else covering the scene at the level you are? You know, I'm sure there's local newspapers, but you know, I, I'm not, I'm not in Oklahoma. I'm not in Texas. I'm, I'm not super aware, but, uh, anybody you want to get a shout out to, or are you kind of the guy right now?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Oh, look, there's a person out there that has been working on a book about the history of red dirt for a long time, Tanya little, and she's really close to having it done. And there's, there's folks like her out there that I think are just so important, probably in some ways more valuable to the scene than me, because they're still right in the middle of it. Um, but there's not just there's not just a ton of journalists really covering anything right now and so, um, you know red dirt's lost a ton of its Day to day coverage despite the fact that the artists are bigger than ever and probably there's more more stories to be told than ever and the good news is like that takes a lot of pressure off me because I don't feel like I could ever cover everything that Needs to be told right now and I can just focus on A handful of artists each year and try and do them really well. Um, and then write books that try and keep, keep pace with history as fast as possible. No,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:and backing up, like, and you cover it in the book, but I don't know that anybody has a, a great explanation. How the heck did we get here? You know, 2018 or 2019, I was super excited to see Turnpike at our little summer, you know, free concert in the park festival in Victor, Idaho. And uh, you know, they obviously went on hey, hiatus and the next thing, you know, literally their next shows are sold out canes and sold out. You know, Red Rocks and it's how in the heck did we get here in this short, a short amount of time for some of these guys? I know COVID's, uh, COVID happened and that accelerated the music scene in general, but
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think, I think if you just say COVID happened and red dirt got big, I think you, you just gloss over everything. I think, look, I think. Turnpike and in modern times, Ragweed, they had built a loyal fan base. Um, but nobody had ever really thought what it might look like if it was scaled up. Um, so I don't think that people were sitting around during COVID feeling like, Well, I'm not a Turnpike Troubadours fan today, but if they announced a concert tomorrow, I would buy a ticket. I don't think that was happening. I think, I think basically everybody that liked Turnpike during their break began obsessing over them. Um, and blogs and websites and social media. Added to that to the point that, you know, when they came back after nearly three years, it was, you know, it's Beatle mania thing. There were people, 70, 000 people trying to buy tickets to Cane's. Um, but I mean, I think it was, I think it was because they, they had cultivated a fan base that would just happen to be bigger than everybody realized. And then with Ragweed, It's hard to put into words now, but Ragweed, they played big shows. They sold out Lone Star Park in Grand Prairie, Texas in their heyday. That caused like a, that caused a backup on the freeway outside of it. And they've played the Houston Rodeo. They played big shows.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:for sure.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:they were constantly most associated with bars and clubs. So they had a massive following and then they get off the road. But people like Dierks Bentley and co Wetzel and Ray Wiley Hubbard just keep name dropping them to their fans and just building this like mythology around them that. Ended up having the the sort of the cachet that like like you would associate with oasis or somebody so um I mean it was happening I heard it from a journalism side during turnpikes come back because everybody would always say this is this is huge Now imagine if rag we did that and and I would think at the time yeah, it would probably be big but I you know, I just didn't realize that everything that I just had just Kind of wax poetic about would get thrown into this big blender and rag. We would come out of it larger than life like they have. Um, but that's what happened. And I think, I think COVID had a role in some of the younger artists that we're saying, I think Wyatt Flores, Jr. Carol, and probably. Probably Caitlyn and, and, and Southall too. I think they benefited from people sitting around for a year desperate for music because they got to be heard. People started seeking out anything that they liked and they found out that they really liked these folks. Um, so I think there, there was a, a role that, that break from the world played. Um. But I don't think you can explain either turnpike or ragweed through that. It was, it was just too big and it was too big and too much to just, to just be some sort of chance that they were, they had they had built something for a long time. And I think maybe both bands just didn't realize how big they built it till their tickets were on sale.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. And let's, uh, let's finally get to why, you know, you've, you've obviously become close with Wyatt and, you know, I don't know what planet he's from. I don't know what we did to deserve him, you know, 2025 is off to a rough start. And I think we're all extremely lucky to have, have him in our lives and is accessible of an artist as he is. I was just before we got on scrolling through his Tik TOK and, you know, you feel like you get to know the guy and he's all over the podcast scene. Like, what, what's the, what's the ceiling for that, that kid?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Well, I think it's, I think the, I think a ceiling is unlimited. I think he can be the biggest artist red dirt's ever seen. And I really mean that. I think, I think if he, I don't even know if it's a matter of he won't, here's what, let me, let me rephrase it. What I hope why it does. It's I hope that Wyatt keeps doing what he's doing without regards to the size of his fan base or his popularity. I hope he just lives his life and finds songs in it and shares them with the world wherever he's at. And I think if he does that, I think that that fan base is just going to grow exponentially. I don't think he has to do a thing. I don't think he has to change a thing about his approach, except realize that there's tens of thousands of people that want to see him now. And that number is going to be hundreds of thousands in a year and millions a year after that. And if he can shut that noise out and just go. You know, bounce around Oklahoma and go fishing and hang out with the friends he's got and turn those into songs and keep sharing that. I think everything else is going to take care of itself. He is, he is an artist that I don't think needs to build some sort of master plan to get to, you know, boon picking stadium or, or, uh, Madison square garden. I think, I think he just keeps doing exactly what he's doing. That's going to happen naturally. And that's. That's really rare. Like there's every artist that I've seen in music has a ceiling and it's just weird. I don't think he does. I think, I think he can, without changing his approach at all, um, reach a level that it's unheard of for red dirt, but, um, is something that you would most more closely associate with. a heavily mainstream major label country artist that has been that has a an entire machine behind them Gearing up for them to be at this level at this time and I think why I can just let it happen naturally
audioAaronStiny11825536543:right. Kind of take the, the Zach Bryan trajectory and just transcend from, from, you know, his roots to mainstream, not just country, but just superstardom, right? I guess.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:No, I think that's it. And um, you know, I think there's I think there's some parts to, to Zach that I, that you can kind of see him struggling with right now about where music fits into his life and where his personal life belongs. I have a feeling that I think Wyatt's just a different person. I think that, um, I think Wyatt can a year from now, two years from now. I think he can just carry on like he is. And, um, he's surrounded himself with people that will help him tune out the noise from the rest of the world. And I think that's really cool. Um, I don't know. It's not because of what Zach is going through. It's just because he's a different person.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. And so I've, uh, I've kind of come to terms, I think, with the term emo country, and I saw you put a Rolling Stone article out today, and I feel like when I first saw that, it was maybe detrimental to Wyatt and Zach, and I think I saw an article where Uh, Godwin was, was thrown in there as well with him. But now, you know, I've, I think I've come full circle. How do you feel about that term? Is, is it, uh, is it detrimental to those guys? Is it, uh, is, I mean, I think it describes their music perfectly and there's nothing wrong with that. Just, I think the term emo in the music scene over the last 10, 20 years has always had kind of a stigma to it, but attaching it to some of these red dirt guys, does it, you know, how do you feel about that term and in the red dirt scene?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:It's been, it's been a while now. Um, but, um, let's see. And so the editor of Rolling Stone, the country vertical is a guy named Joe Hudak, and he's the one that puts all my stories in there and it's. It's been, it's, it's been, it's been a good bit, but, um, I was sitting around Nashville with him, um, and, um, my wife, and she just blurted out the phrase emo country, describing one of those guys, um, and now all these years later, like Joe has run with it, and he's just like, referring to emo country. Um, as though it's an accepted term of art, and I think the artists have come around with it. So, so now let's bring ourselves back up to 2025, present day. Um, today as we record this podcast, I put up a story this morning about, uh, Nolan Taylor. Um, the emo of emo country. And him and his team are texting me like emo country. That's great. I want to use that I I just think that I think it's I think it's become endearing. Um, It there was a long story of saying that but I had a an outsized role in the phrase catching on Just because of who I was around and who I was saying it in the presence of um but I think in like two or three years time, I think it's I think it is I think people have come around on it and I think part of it is That if you were called emo, if somebody was labeled emo country, say 2013, they were probably like 35 years old and trying to get a major label deal. Everybody, all these, everybody that's being tagged with that label now is brand new to country music and they're, they're just wearing it as a badge of honor. It's great.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think Rustin Kelly probably helped a little bit too when he started referring to his own music as dirt emo and just making that phrase cool. Uh, I think that all went hand in hand.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, I know, like growing up in California, I hear the term emo and I think of skinny jeans and eyeliner and sad music from Portland and whatnot. It took me a while to come to terms with that, but it does seem appropriate for what we got going on now. And I think that's why some of these guys are resonating so much, right? It's 2025, we're off to a poor start. And a lot of folks are struggling to hear, you know. People put that into music is probably pretty helpful right now.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, and I think, um, look, I don't think any of the artists that we're associating with that phrase would, um, would have thrived being an emo band 20 years ago, but I think the mindset was probably is very similar. Um, you know. Emo the the classic genre of emo was working through your feelings. I think that's what's happening with these guys, too They're just working through their feelings publicly and we kind of get to you know Hear it in a different way. It's manifesting itself as um over some of these old country melodies, but um I think lyrically there's probably less of a difference than we're giving a credit for and I think the mindset's exactly the same
audioAaronStiny11825536543:For sure. I, I came from the grunge scene. I was a pearl jam guy forever. And I always, I always had the mindset that any better invented emo, you know, black, it doesn't get much more, you know, the song black, it doesn't get much more emotional than that. And the lyrics and the harmonies and whatnot. So I think it can definitely transcend. Genres, right? And uh, what we're hearing now is just an extension of some of that
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:yeah, and I think um, I think there's maybe even the majority of New new ish country artists were probably not all that influenced by country music. Anyway, they, they probably grew up on emo and they probably grew up on, you know, hip hop and rock and stuff. That's not certainly not classic country and probably not nineties country either.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:sure.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:so I, I think, I think you're seeing, I think you're seeing that all play out. And I think it's, I think it's pretty, it's fascinating. It's fascinating for sure. Um, but I think that mindset is just. Probably not a lot different than what the mindset of, uh, you know, the biggest and best emo bands were 20 years ago.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah You know, I I listened to like uh Don't want to say good night by by Wyatt and I I like if that came out in the 90s like he'd be He'd be touring with the biggest grunge bands out there, right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:exactly.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And I know, I know, uh, Cody's got a huge grunge influence. I've heard Evan talk on podcasts about his uncle was a grunge musician and that was one of his big influences. And, you know, Coetzel seems like he could, he could front a grunge band in the 90s and not miss a beat kind of thing.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:And I wonder too, and I guess it's just something I never have explored. It's it's a, the concept is so new, but I do wonder if, um, ragweed made a lot of that cool in ways that it took years to manifest. Um, I think Brent Cobb's little, uh, little song a couple of years ago about how. Cody and Ryan Bingham and Hayes Carl were, um, everybody else wanted to be them, but nobody could commit. And I think, um, I think you look at those folks and, and how, um, how to sort of just raw their lyrics were and how feelings forward they were, was just so frowned upon in country music that it, it took, there was this long delay before they actually had an influence. But I think Ragweed very directly influenced Coe. I think Coe has said that. He said that to me in a story we did this summer. Um, And now Co's going out and playing in a, you know, amphitheaters and arenas and stadiums and in every single person in the crowd knows every single word and sings along. I think maybe there's been a hunger for this for a lot longer than we realized. And, um, it, it maybe was it now that I hear myself saying it out loud might've been a bigger, more deliberate process by accident than, uh, than we're giving it credit for.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And maybe beyond COVID, that's just why so many people have come into the genre is because they're, they've been a fan of this style of, of music writing with other genres. And now that's finally. You know, taking hold in country music. It's it's brought them over to the kind of the Americana Red Dirt scene, if you will.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Agreed. 100%.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. Um, you know, part of me selfishly, it's, I get bummed when I have to go see some of these bands in an arena. Like that's not my favorite thing to hang out with 10 people. Do you miss and, and, you know, I'm here in Idaho, and when a band comes through, it's usually at, you know, the basketball stadium with 10, 000 people at Boise State. We don't, you know, so much. We've got, you know, we're lucky we've got a few of the supper clubs and whatnot that some bands still play. But, uh, I miss, you know, these bands being unknown and playing these small venues, and now it's all of a sudden I gotta go see them with 10, 000 of my best friends. Is that, is that the same? Do you, do you share that feeling? Do you, uh I'm happy for the bands, but selfishly for me, it's, it's, I missed the experience.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I did for a really long time, but, um, I don't know, I can't speak for everybody that felt that way, but, but when I was following ragweed around, uh, from bar to bar, I was. You know, there was always there was always a part of that experience that was why aren't these folks bigger? Um, why why is nobody taking notice of this really good music? Why is mainstream media ignoring us? And that was sort of a whole thing like that's um a large part of texas music, um, we'll say 95 to 2020 was built around the idea that they had good music there but nobody outside of texas had enough taste to realize it and Fine. That's, that's, that's really cool. But now that it's happening and catching on, I feel it. I guess I feel a little bit like this is what we asked for is what we wanted. So
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:do I think arenas sound great? No. Do I think it's really, really, really cool to see. 19, 000 people in an arena singing good Lord Lori back to turnpike. Absolutely. Do I think it's really cool to watch Shane Smith and the saints who I remember watching at the Mercury lounge in New York, like two years ago, play a stadium and have everybody get their. Phone lights out and start waving them back and forth. That's like, that's beyond anything that any of us ever thought was even possible. So yeah, of course I do miss, I'm nostalgic for these guys playing bars and clubs, but we're, from my perspective, we're getting now what I asked for for 20 years. So, um, I I'm on board with it and I'm really happy for them. And my biggest problem is what the experience now is. I think ticket prices are, are. out of hand, but I guess the trade off would have been like, what did the ceiling used to be? It used to be playing Billy Bob's where if you're not down front, you have a really bad view and it's incredibly crowded and you can't get around and you can't get a drink. Um, I think the ceiling now is way cooler. That's
audioAaronStiny11825536543:for sure. Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, the scene has just exploded so much. You broke the story about Reckless kind of being on their glide path to retirement, and obviously Robert Earl, who I see over your left shoulder there, kind of announced his retirement and has now, uh, Come out of retirement. Do you think it just, these guys are having so much fun and the scene's so cool right now. It's like, why stop now? Is that part of it or?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:100%. I think it, I think it absolutely is. Um, I think, I think the, the road wears you down and beats you down. And I think that was what happened to Reckless. And I think, I don't think Robert got beat down by the road. I think that Robert did it for decades and kind of reached a point where he just felt like there wasn't an upside to it anymore. I don't think he felt beat down as much as I think that he just done everything. And then there was, you know, there was a series of. horrible events in 2022 that kind of, um, forced his hand on retirement. But I've talked to Reckless for Rolling Stone and Robert for Rolling Stone since about them not actually retiring. And what, you know, Robert said to me basically was I'm a songwriter and playing song, my songs to people is. that I get this great joy from in life and why would I want to stop that? And reckless on the other hand, I think, um, I think they will take a break, but I think they've also realized that, um, you know, without the ability to get on stage and play to a room full of people that love their music, I think they feel like there's something missing too. Um, so I, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't begrudge any of them for wanting to do something else because it is. It is not an easy life at all. I just think that when the time actually comes to do something else, you just realize kind of who you are. And I think everyone's kind of realizing their, their songwriters and their entertainers and there's part of their life. They don't get back if they don't scratch that itch regularly.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, I know. Uh, that story came out and reckless put that to her out. And, uh, I know false tickets went on sale. It was just kind of a hometown show for those guys and they packed the house. And, and then, uh, you know, another album came out and, uh, for me, it was a sense of relief. It's like, okay, these guys are still going to be out there. Right. You know.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think what happens with reckless, I think reckless probably does take a break from the road after this year. I think that's probably a year or two at least, but I don't think they stopped being reckless. I think they get into the studio. I think they make another album. Um, I think they still do. BBR and a handful of other festivals without ever taking a break from those. Um, and I think eventually they'll hit the road and welcome welcome themselves and their fans back to A more substantial tour. I just think that we're talking years down the road before they get back to wanting to do it
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Funny story about that, uh, show, you know, whenever they play around here, Muzzy always opens and I don't know if you've seen them, you know, beyond BVR here out in Eastern Idaho, but anytime Muzzy's playing with Reckless, there's like, I don't know, 50 or so great haired old ladies who were there just for Muzzy.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Oh, i've seen this. Yes. I have watched this play out.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And he opens and they are so into it. And then those seats are empty for Reckless and it cracks me up every time.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Um, yeah, you know, the the big thing about um, what makes reckless kind of unique is When, when a brawn opens their mouth, you hear Idaho, like they are so they're so from Idaho and everything they say do and the way they act. Um, and they didn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't spend 25 years being from Idaho living in Austin and making, making Texans and fans of. a separate genre of the same music, fall in love with Idaho music too. Um, so now there's this, this whole mythology that surrounds them. Um, but like, they're just doing what Muzzy and Pinto were doing 50 years ago. They just did it in a different place.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:A plug for Motel Cowboy Show, you know, I live in Eastern Idaho. It's, we're kind of this little hamlet of, of red dirt music, largely because of Reckless and Muzzy and Pinto, but you know, people here love it. And we were fortunate enough, you know, Shane does his saints fest out here in Stanley, which is. That's amazing. If you've never, I know you've been to BBR, but if you've never seen Shane's Little Festival, he does in Stanley, he packs, packs that little town in the summertime and, and that's, that's an amazing place. And there's, you know, you cover it in, in Motel, but, uh, you know, my kind of introduction way back in the day, my dad was a huge Chris Wall fan.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Oh really?
audioAaronStiny11825536543:He, so have you ever heard of K Pig Radio out of Santa Cruz, California? Yeah, so he was, uh, my dad was a KPIG subscriber, and he remember going to Tower Records in Sacramento, the original one was one of the last ones open, and, uh, he was buying, you know, Chris Wall cassettes, and, and being a kid, I, I secretly, you know, acted like I hated it, but I secretly liked it, because the guy could sing, and he was funny, right? And then I moved out here, and, uh, I got a job bartending over in Jackson for weddings, and there were, like, two bands that played weddings, either a funk band or a country band, and the country band always covered Chris, right? And, And, uh, I was like, Oh, I know this guy. And then, uh, I went to a reckless show out here and of course they covered some Chris songs and talked about his influence. It was kind of, you know, I was, I was the bread dirt kind of in Texas scene kind of got its talents and I didn't have to pretend not to like it anymore. Coming from the rock and roll grunge scene. It was like, all right. This is, this is for me.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, I think the other thing too was, I think the other thing that, that, that the both reckless and the motor cars did was being these being unabashedly these Idaho cowboys and hillbillies, but absolutely being rock and roll on stage. Um, I think that probably did a lot more for. Americana and red dirt across the country than they'll ever get credit for.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And you know, like we've got our little, little bubble here in Idaho and, you know, Cape Hig and Santa Cruz, and they've got their rebels and renegades fest out there there, what other pockets of red dirt exist in places you wouldn't expect that, you know, I'm, I'm super curious about this,
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:At the moment, at the moment, the biggest headlining show Wyatt has played has been Boston, Massachusetts. And that has blown all of our
audioAaronStiny11825536543:right.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:about that MGM music hall, um, which is just a gorgeous venue that seems like it's out of the future. It's, it's built to, it's built to resemble Fenway Park in a, in a way that is almost shocking. So that's one. Um, One of my favorite ones and one of the ones you probably guess I'll say will be Chicago because, um, Joe's on Wheat Street just became such a, uh, haven for red dirt over the years. That's a big one. Um, Asheville, North Carolina. Um,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:That, that checks out.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:and I think that, um, I think if you really want to stretch it out, the, the following that some of these guys get in places like Cologne, Germany and Copenhagen, Denmark would blow your mind if you went and saw them. Um, And that, that's certainly true of, of the Wyatts and his contemporaries like 49 Winchester and Charles Wesley, but it was true of Pinto too.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. You covered that in the book. He was way more popular in Europe
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:and Jimmy LaFave was the same way. So, um, the, the, the pockets never ceased to amaze me. The first time I went into a bar in New York City, and I wasn't the one that put Turnpike on the jukebox, I was just wanting to, like, call them and tell them, Hey, you're on the jukebox here. And they're like, Dude, it's like 2022. We're in every jukebox everywhere. But it still was wild. I mean,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:I left Idaho briefly. We took a little hiatus and moved back to California and tried to See if it would work raising the kid and work there and, uh, I'm a firefighter by trade and my first day on shift in, in California, uh, you know, the morning going off, we're cleaning rigs and we throw music on out in the bays. And the first song that popped on that, uh, a French Canadian engineer that was working for us was, was Turnpike. And I was just, I was like, this, this is where we're at
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:broken, contained, man.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. I couldn't believe it. It was, uh, it was pretty cool.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:mean, that really is what happened, though. I mean, um, Red Dirt, in particular, just kind of went feral, or it was like a rogue wig that just Banned out across the country and then it hit the nation's borders and it, and it lapped back on itself. And now we're all just kind of in the middle of it. But I just, the only thing that surprised me about it was how long it took. And then once it happened, how fast it happened.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Uh, so out here, we kind of blame Taylor Sheridan for ruining the last stand and the music scene, and I know you, you cover it a little bit in, uh, in, in a motel cowboy show about the person who picks the music and that's kind of accelerated a lot of folks's careers. Uh, is, are you aware, is Taylor a fan and does he have somebody else pick the music? I know he's Turnpike was literally on the finale of Yellowstone. I know the new show he's got out there features, um, it, I'm curious if
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I mean, every, every, everything, everything that they, that, that happens with his projects is signed off by him. So he, he is a fan. So I, I actually talked about this. Um, with Bingham for Rolling Stone back in October before his, uh, Great Western Fest and Ryan said to me, he said, um, this is really cool to look at now and see how, um, see the influence it's had on music, um, and the, the national conscience of. not just country music fandom, but music fandom in general, he said something I never thought of. He was like, when, when this whole thing started, I was like, what if they don't like it? What if they hear this and hate it? And then we've ruined everybody's lives. Um, and I never thought of it that way. So we ended up, we're on the right side of history. Um, But maybe it wasn't as straightforward as we thought it was going to be.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, you know we shit on Taylor out here because he ruined, it's more COVID than the show, but uh, he actually bought a, allegedly bought a house out here and people run into him at the bars and allegedly he's a very nice, nice guy and fits, fits right in out here, but uh, Yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those things, you know, you see the, the cars out here with California plates and the Yellowstone stickers and you just, you know, you moan and groan, but, uh, you know, he's, he seems like he's got some, uh, major responsibility and kind of this, all the factors that just exploded some of these artists, right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, it really did. And I mean, five years ago, you wouldn't have been able to walk around New York where I lived and see any influence of music. And now everybody's wearing cowboy hats and cowboy boots and country is really cool. And it seems like once a month and other country bars opening up here.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:No shit.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:so it's, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's wild to see as well. See him play out here and fucking big Apple, but it is, um, And you know, it's culture something else will catch everyone's eye in a few years But we're not we're not at the top of it yet. We're gonna it's gonna accelerate for a few more years yet.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Is there still like, if you're an up and coming artist, is, you know, obviously you've talked about Austin, Stillwater used to be the places, probably no longer the places. Is there still a place like people are moving to try and launch their careers as social media? Just what's that
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:oh god. Yes. Um, and right now it's tulsa tulsa I mean, it's absolutely What's happening in the music scene in tulsa right now is a while. It's like It's like, it's like you're speed running red dirt from the Mike McClure and Cody Canada era. But you're also speed running like this modern sort of social media influence. Uh on music and it's all happening and people are people are moving to Tulsa and going and Learning about the mercury lounge and then making tick tock after tick tock of it And I mean that place that place sells out everything instantly and canes is the same way canes has always been um this really Really cool historic place. But I mean, it was, you never thought of canes the same way you thought of like red rocks or the gorge, but now you, now you do now they put on a show, it sells out and they sells out cause it's canes. And, um, I never saw that. I never saw that coming from Tulsa. But it sure is. And the people that live there, um, and make music there full time have no intentional leaving. Um, you know, John Moreland's John Moreland's Tulsa through and through, um, Ken Pomeroy, I think she'll be there forever. I think, I think people are really, really comfortable there now, and it's only going to grow as a destination. That's not the only place. Um, but it's certainly the one that I think of now. Um, I think, I don't know what it would have been like to live in Austin in the 70s or 80s, but I, I think if you went, if you moved to Tulsa right now, you would get that same vibe.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And if, if I showed up at the mercury and Tulsa for a show and told people I was from out of state, is that pretty normal people coming in from all over
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah. They expect that.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:they may treat you like a guest and people are friendly to your people aren't pissed off that you're coming in taking
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:no, that, that's, that, that's a cool thing. They have not gotten, they have not yet gotten to a point where they're mad at outsiders like Austin is. You can go, you can walk into the Mercury Arcanes and everyone is still just fascinated that you're there like you think highly that highly of us and then those aren't the only places those are just the bellwethers.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Then you learn about Venue Shrine and Vanguard, which is where Wyatt Flores played right before he got his. First cane show, um, or the colony, which now is owned by local musicians. Like you get there and all of a sudden, like you realize there's this whole network of, of bars that these musicians are just bouncing around too. And, um, have to imagine that there are parallels to some major scenes. Like Seattle three years before grunts just exploded was probably something akin to this,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. I know that's, that's my bucket.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah. Raleigh before whiskey town took off was probably something like this.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:I know that's my bucket list. I'm, I'm ashamed to say this. My mom's from Rogers County. She's from, uh, Chelsea, Oklahoma.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I know where Chelsea is.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:yeah, they're very proud of that. They're very proud to have a Will Rogers and that family tree and Clemens bad, and then some famous folks. And I've never set foot in Oklahoma. So I always worry about, you know, I'd love to, to show up in, in, in the context of, uh, some red dirt music, but I don't want to be that, uh, You know, the poser that shows up from, uh, out of state. So that's reassuring
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:fit right in. You'll be great.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:That's awesome. Uh, you know, you've talked about, we've, we've named dropped a bunch of artists who out there, would you say that maybe that's been around and, and, you know, the reason it's taken me so long to get through Red Dirt Unplugged is, is every time you mentioned a, an artist that I'm, you know, maybe not familiar with or super familiar with, I got to get on social media, listen to some music. So it. It's taken me a while to plug through, but like, is there anybody out there that you would say has been around and read Derrick Americana Country, Texas Country forever, that's just, for whatever reason, hasn't, hasn't taken off and you would say it's like criminally underrated? I've got one on, on my mind, but like, drop some names for us to, to, to go look into.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:If you ever have a chance to hear, um, Travis Linville play, if you ever have a chance to hear Mike Hostey show, if you ever have a chance to, um, expanding it beyond just Oklahoma, Texas, if you ever have a chance to hear somebody like Drew Cooper or, or hell, if you don't realize that Roger Klein and the Peacemakers are the refreshments, you got, you need to go remedy that. You just, um, they're not just making good music. They're influencing all the kids that are making music right now. Um, and yeah, that's, that's, um, that's always something that I try to do. Um, when I, when I write books or I write for Rolling Stones, I don't just want to be on the hot, young, cutting edge, trend setting artists. I want to make sure that, um, we're telling a complete story. And I mean, I think a big part of that are artists that are still playing to 300 capacity rooms who should probably be playing the 3000 capacity rooms or more. That's a big deal to me.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Slade Cleaves? Have you ever run across Slade?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I put Slade Wright in that category.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, he's to me, uh, he was a friend of an ex girlfriend's family. They turned me on to him from Maine and hey, you should look up our, uh, our family member down in Texas and oh my God, like as good of a songwriter and storyteller as there, there is out there.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah. And honestly, like before, for the last couple of years, I might've put Cody Canada and then departed in there. And certainly the Mike McClure band in there, like, just because those guys aren't with the red dirt bands that. Everybody wants him to be with didn't make them somebody you should ignore. And I think that's, that's a faded a little bit. And with Cody, it was probably fading even before the voice from Oklahoma and with McClure, you know, I think everything about him took several levels up when he got sober half a decade ago and wrote the looking up album and put out the. Great Divide Providence album. So I think, I think times were already changing. Um, but there was a good long while that I would have put them in the same group. Why wouldn't you want to hear these guys play? They're still writing these wonderful songs and they wrote some of your favorite Red Dirt songs of all time and you're not giving them a due. But, um, that has, that has softened considerably in the last Two or three years and it's probably non existent now with boys from Oklahoma living
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, you do a great job of telling McClure's and the great divide story and, and unplugged, and I think it's, it's relatable for a lot of us just struggling with demons. Right. And, uh. And it makes, it makes you want to support a guy like that, that, that much more.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, and um, It's just impossible to overstate then, you know, their influence on on modern music Like I don't there's no Wyatt Flores without them, but there's also there's also probably no ragweed without them and McClure produced Diamonds and Gasoline for Turnpike. He produced the very first Whiskey Myers album like McClure McClure is somebody who you got to put some respect on his name. And I think for a long time, folks weren't. I
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Do you think like mainstream country has taken notice of, of the red dirt scene and where, where it's gone? Is it, is it threatening to them? Are they trying to, are we going to see people try to, you know, try to get involved? Like, how do you see that whole relationship going
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:think,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:forward?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think the concept of Maine, like, do I think, do I think a bunch of like, do I think that the most mainstream record labels are going to go sign a bunch of red dirt acts? No, but why is Flores assigned to Island records? And that's. That's Chapel Rowan's label. That's Serena Carpenter's label. They're very cool people. I think, I think people are viewing Red Dirt as cool right now, and parts of mainstream that know how to tap into cool are certainly casting eyes on Red Dirt right now.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. I know, uh, a bunch of, uh, when I was working down in California, a bunch of my co workers all went to Golden Sky to see, uh, Luke Bryan and, and some of those guys, and they all came back to like, yeah, Luke was whatever, but do you know this Turnpike band that, that played the set before him? Holy shit, those guys were good.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:That's probably what I, that's probably honestly what I'm nostalgic for more than the bars and clubs was just, I like seeing people see a band like Turnpike or like Wyatt for the first time. Um, seeing Wyatt play Red Rocks for the first time opening for Turnpike last May was this out of body experience because Wyatt had caught on in popularity, but, um, but there were 10, 000 people at Red Rocks that were there to see Turnpike and they, Turnpike fans are in their 30s and Wyatt's fans are in their 20s. And Turnpike fans don't spend all day on TikTok usually. So they were giving, they were giving Wyatt the benefit of the doubt. Like, okay, you're opening for Turnpike. We know you're kind of your story. We're going to sit and listen to you. And he takes the stage and everyone's just sort of sitting, clapping politely. And by the end of his set, he plays for exactly an hour. And by the end of his set, he's got them all on their feet and they're singing along to his music back to him. And they're crying because they've invested themselves in their stories. Like I miss that. I miss people experiencing, getting to see people experience this for the first time, a lot more than I miss just playing in clubs alone,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. Yeah. I remember, I, you know, follow Stacy on, on Instinct and, and she, she's been singing Wyatt's praises for, for quite a while
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:especially with the Red Rocks and saw him
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, exactly. And after that show, she told the masses, like, if you don't know this guy, you better because he's, he's destined for, for big things, right? Uh, festival, you know, it seems like the country festivals still keep plugging right along. But you read these articles about festivals and other genres are just struggling. They're shutting down before they even go. They're taking people's money and not going back is, are you hearing about, you know, these, these country festivals struggling or are they in?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I actually wrote a piece about this for Rolling Stone last year. There were, there was a high profile cancellation of, um, a festival in Northern California that I'm
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Bay Area, right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:No Midland was going to headline it. Um, and then in October we had the Giddy Up Festival in Vegas get canceled and Turnpike was on that bill along with, um, some other really high profile artists that, um, I really like. Um, And I don't think it's as extreme as some other genres, but it's hitting country. And what I wrote in the tick I took in the article was just that, and it wasn't just me talking. This was, this was other artists and insiders. They were just basically saying, you have to focus on the experience as a whole and you can't just. You can't just call up CAA or William Morris and just say, give me 15 artists anymore. You have to curate a whole day and you have to curate an experience. Um, the, the, the festivals that I think aren't doing the best right now are the ones that are just haphazardly throwing artists together without any, without any rhyme or reason to what fans are going to hear. And so you end up hearing like this super. Mainstream artists followed by like, uh, this, this, this kid playing original music and follow that up with this, you know, the, uh, a folk rock band and the style of turnpike. And then for some reason, Nelly always shows up and any of those are fine in a vacuum, but who wants to go, I'm trying to figure out the type of person that would want to go listen to eight straight hours of that. Like you don't want to do that. And so the festivals that are doing that are going to survive are the ones that are. Actually trying to curate a real experience for fans and I think bourbon and beyond still does it I think born and raised is a great example too in oklahoma
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:on a smaller scale bbr, of course, we'll always do it but
audioAaronStiny11825536543:probably one of those two.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:jackalope is very very, you know that I know the folks at jackalope. I've been on the jackalope bill for several years And I know that when they go to put together their lineups, they're like, okay, this day has to all make sense. This day has to be, you know, a red dirt day or whatever. This day is all, um, southeastern musicians like 49 Winchester, you know, can we get, you know, the drive by truckers this day followed by whatever, whatever it is. They're always very, very, very focused on what fans hear from the start to finish on each day. And I think that's They're probably going to be okay because they do that. Um, your area of the country has, has it worse than just about anybody. And I, Buddy Braun and I, Buddy Braun and I went and did this research. There's something like in like a eight week span, there's something like 14 or 15 major festivals within like an eight hour radius in the Pacific Northwest. And then a step down from that, there's like. 50 more big events that you could classify as a festival, um, on just a smaller scale. And it's all happening like between like. Late June and the end of August. So it's, it's all together and
audioAaronStiny11825536543:two months where it doesn't snow here.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:it's, it's, it's one of the most, it's one of the more obvious and how did you not see this coming examples I've ever seen of oversaturating a market. And I think it's worse. I think it's worse than the Northwest and anywhere else in the country. But, um, I think you're seeing it happen in lots of places, um, that at some point. There will be more festivals than people have dollars to spend on festivals. And then what are you going to do? And that's where we're at,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. Especially as the price goes up and like you mentioned, the experience goes down, you know, a lot of friends went to the under the big sky the first year and we're not impressed with that experience up there. And luckily it sounds like they've kind of got it together year two and might survive those first year hiccups, but. You know, I, I noticed and I've been curious, uh, there's some festivals in Montana this year with, you know, a lot of the red dirt scene, but also you've got people like Modest Mouse and some of these other folks on there. I've wondered if that's, uh, are they trying to kind of mold these together or is that just a haphazard lineup thrown together?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think it's haphazard. I think it's I think it's I think festival directors Have a misguided notion of what a fan wants to experience I just don't think that that sort of a mix is a good long term plan and the reason is because If you put Modest Mouse on at a country festival, you're putting Modest Mouse on it, you know, the sun's still out, it's still really hot, they're going to do an abbreviated set, so what Modest Mouse fan is going to go to that? Um, because a Modest Mouse fan wants to see them headline, they want to see them play the last set, and they're not going to do that, they're going to, they're going to have somebody of a more country bent doing that, so, so what Modest Mouse fan is going to travel all the way to the middle of nowhere to see them play? And then, what do you cost yourself? By putting Modest Mouse on there. Well, there's probably somebody who, A, you could get for a lot less, um, if you're a festival director and B, um, who is going to fit in with the rest of the day that is going to appeal to the fans. So maybe you don't, so maybe there's not going to be like thousands of people that will fly out to Montana to see Not Modest Mouse play at 5 PM for 45 minutes. But. The people that are already there are going to appreciate you for doing that. And I think that's what festivals are missing right now, or just a true understanding of what folks want out of their day.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:And then are you seeing any folks like kind of seek out small obscure places, get away from, from some of that? Like I noticed this summer Boland played at the bone store in Eastern Idaho. It's the, it's a gas station sandwich shop at the end of a dirt road that nobody really knows about. And they do live music Friday nights. And all of a sudden Jason Boland and stragglers were there. And I have no idea how that came about, but I'm not complaining about it. But, uh, are we going to see more of that? Or is that just a one off? Weird thing. Are folks looking for smaller places to, for the nostalgic factor? Like, what's that all about?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:mean, look, I think, I think one of the most telling instances of festival fatigue on artists as is kind of playing out right in front of us as we record this episode. Um, you know, the music fest in steamboat was, was packed. It was sold out. It was great. And they're doing great. But there were a lot of artists that didn't go play there that are still booking right now, this week, tonight in the ski towns around there between there and Denver. And, um, you know, Silverado wasn't at steamboat, but they had some shows in Colorado, same for Robert Earl Keene. So Yeah, I think you're seeing, I think you're seeing a genre wide, um, reassessing of what feels good right now for some of these artists.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Where do you, you know, if, if people want to find red dirt music and new artists, you know, you've got a Spotify, you know, I listened to You know, the mainstream radio out here and, and, you know, some artists have made it on there. Some haven't, you know, you don't hear turnpike on mainstream country radio here. I don't know if you do other places, but like what, you know, where do you go to find new music? Obviously you're well connected and you go to shows, but if you're just looking for new music to, to get your, your claws into like, where do you go?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Well, I mean, look, I just had to keep an open mind. Um, and I'll start my search on social media, but I'm starting my search like asking the question, who do these artists that I like have opening for them? Because anymore, An artist worth their salt is only putting somebody on to open for them if they like them and they have good taste. And so I start my search there on tour schedules. Who are the opening acts I need to learn about? And that's how I learned. That's how I learned a year ago about Nolan Taylor and Evan Hohner because they were opening for Wyatt Flores. Um, and i've been doing that probably 10 years, but it's really accelerated in this, uh, Post COVID real where everything happens so fast. Uh, I start there. I, I start, my first thing I ask myself is who do the artists I like want playing in front of them. And that is. It has allowed me to hit about, uh, an 80 percent success rate at finding new music that I like, because I can, I can go find music that I don't like anywhere by just calling up a Spotify playlist and searching,
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:but, um, finding artists that I like and, and seeing who they want to play in front of them has been, has been, has been a boon.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Um, you've made a point in, in certainly Unplugged and Motel Cowboy Show, you call it out as well as some of the female up and coming artists and, and where we're at in kind of the red dirt scene. Are you satisfied with, with the trajectory they've, and the traction they've got? Are you frustrated by that? Is it, are we making some progress there? Because there are some fantastic female artists out there that some, some are finally getting the recognition they deserve, some yet to have. How do you feel about that right now?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I think there are, I don't know that they're getting the recognition they deserve yet, but I think there are enough people advocating for them now that it feels possible for the first time ever. When Kaylin Butts accepted that, um, Ameripolitan award about a year or so ago down in Austin and she used her entire acceptance speech to just. absolutely lay into the industry for not just putting her on at 1pm at a festival but we're putting taylor honeycutt and cad hasty and and brie bagwell and courtney and then just incredible talent after incredible talent on for Less money than the male counterparts would get and in a time slot that's miserable when she did that It made me feel like actual change was possible and I don't know how much of it we're seeing manifest itself yet Let's call it what it is The key western fest last year went with an all female main stage lineup and now they don't exist anymore And I don't think that's because of their lineup. I honestly think it's because People were just so over saturated with festivals at that time of year, but it still happened You still had you still had a festival that that tried to go out of their way to do something That was female forward and now that festival doesn't exist with that said I'm seeing more than ever from my side of the industry rising star female artists like Ken Pomeroy or or Caitlin Butts having folks with significant clout and pool in music want to work with them. Um, Ken Pomeroy is working with the same publicity firm that represents Turnpike and Tyler Childers and Sturgill Simpson. Um, and Caitlin is being finally billed at festivals and spots that are either headlining or direct support that she's, that she's long since deserved. So, so I think there is a real. movement in the industry for, um, a little bit better representation and equality for female singers, songwriters. We're just not quite there yet. I think we, I think we can't get there though. And this is the first time in my life I felt like we could get there.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. It's really cool to see that that trajectory and kind of picking up steam and people. supporting that, right?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:And, um, a couple of years ago, a good journalist friend of mine named Marissa Moss wrote a book about this exactly, about the, about how the hurdles just get higher and higher for female artists. And, um, She called it her country. And if anybody's out there listening to this, go check that book out. It's just wonderful. And it, it really opens your eyes to what a different path, um, most female artists face compared to males. And, um, I'm choosing to be optimistic. I do think that, um, I do think that the future may be brighter, um, in that area than it has been for quite some time.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Uh, Josh, I don't want to take up too much of your time. And my wife's a saint. She's wrangling a two year old upstairs in a house full of bird dogs right now. And she gave me an hour, hour and a half to kind of sneak down here and chat with you. But, uh, I'm just, I'm super interested, like, were you, were you musically inclined as a kid? How, how did you get obsessed with this, this genre, just music in general, and kind of become your, your wife?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Yeah, I mean, I was, I mean, like my, my parents tell us, my mom tells stories or she did tell stories of buying me at like age two, like there's a little Fisher price tape players, little plastic things. And I had me were like wearing out like five of them between like ages two and seven. Like I always did have an appreciation for music. In retrospect, I probably should have learned how to play, um, be and just become a musician. But by the time I realized that it was too late in life, I was in my twenties and realized that maybe I should have just learned all this. Um, so, um, you know, I lived as I lived life as an obsessive music fan, and it was only when I realized that I had a platform to share the music that I really like with the world that I, that I leaned all the way into it and just decided that, um, I was going to do everything I could to let people know about the music that I like as long as I can, but it has been in, it's been ingrained in me from day one.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:There's a mute there. Um, Um, and, and you, you know, you go to 100, 120 shows a year, is it all red dirt? Are you going to the heiress tour? Are you going to hip hop shows? Like what? Is there anything else that, uh,
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:All right, let's, let's see, let's see what I have gotten. I, I will, I will attend some of those types of shows every single year. Um, I, I definitely have tickets to Oasis this year.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:okay,
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:I, I will get to, I don't know, a dozen rockish shows or, or throw, I mean, if Pearl, when Pearl Jam's in town, I'm always there. Um, you know, um, I, I'll hit up my, my share of emo, uh, bands too. So it's not that I'm not necessarily, um, pigeonholing myself into one genre. Um, but. bulk of where I end up always turns out to be red dirt, Texas, Americana, something in that vein. That's where you find me most of the time.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Right. And, and what comes next? Or are you going to keep putting these books out as long as the red dirt genre exists and keeps on its trajectory? What do you, what do you got planned? What, uh, what grinds your gears right now?
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Um, Actually, just this week, I'm in the process of launching, um, a members only, uh, patrion at crutchmer. com just, um, kind of to give folks some like behind the scenes access to the people that I see and write about in my life. And, um, I think it would be absolutely silly for me to sit here and pretend like I don't intend to absolutely own the market on covering boys from Oklahoma in April. So all of a sudden you've taken up, you've, you've covered the next. Four to six months of my life without me even taking a breath. So I don't really see this slowing down anytime soon Um, my only real goal for 2025 is to keep expanding it and broadening and I want to write about artists I haven't written about yet. Um, I want to see shows I haven't seen yet and um Keep an open mind about it and hopefully keep sharing it with the world as long as somebody lets me.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Well, as, as a fan of the genre, you know, please keep sharing because it, it, you know, we don't, we, we get our fair amount of shows here, but not a ton. And with a two year old, I don't get to travel as much as I used to. So, uh, we kind of, I live vicariously through, uh, your writing, your, uh, your social media presence. It's, it's great to watch, uh, you Insta stories and whatnot. It's, it's awesome. It helps us out and, and include, I'll, I'll close this out if, uh, if you're back here in Idaho for BBR or Gordy's or something, I understand you like to fish, uh,
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:correct
audioAaronStiny11825536543:you, uh, I, that's, that, that was my career before the fire service working in the fishing industry. So, uh, you drop me an email, I'll, uh, I'll have a boat full of beer and we'll take you fishing out here in Idaho.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Let's go. I'm in. That sounds great. Actually.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. So, uh, I don't know if you have a point. plan for BBR in the next few years. You know, it's always a good time, but, uh, drop me an email if you're in this part of the world and we'll roll you down a river and drink some beer. And I could listen to a subject matter expert talk about their area of expertise all day, but I won't take any more of your time. And maybe down the road, we can catch up as things keep evolving.
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Hey man, this has been great. Thank you so much. This is
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah, no, it's, I think it's, uh, kind of indicative of the genre in general is it's, it's super accessible and I appreciate you, uh, taking the time for me. Like I said, just fledgling, trying to get my feet off the ground in the podcast world. So I really
audioJoshCrutchmer21825536543:Right. It's been great and good luck with it. And I'm glad I could help.
audioAaronStiny11825536543:Yeah. You have a, have a good rest of your week. We'll see you.