For those still pursuing love outside themselves

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:01

I thank you once again for being here because it's so precious and it's so valuable that you would decide to spend your time here discussing ideas, being open and honest and devoted to truth and love, rather than thinking that you have to live with social anxiety for the rest of your life. Rather than chasing so-called the love of your life, even if you don't know who that is yet, but you're constantly chasing. Instead of trying to become a complete human being, because you're such a mess and you're so incomplete, and you're such a just a part and you're still looking for your better half. You could be judging other people, you could be gossiping about them, you could think that you can just not forgive someone and thereby hold them accountable and think that that's doing anything to anyone other than yourself. You could be doing all these things instead of being here engaged in the work of life.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Like when you said that love is of reason, I uh at first that made absolutely zero sense to me. So I thought about it for a little bit and I did some digging, and over the course of the past week, the past couple weeks, actually, um, I found some quotes from a couple people. One of them, which most of us are probably familiar with, I think I can safely assume, is Marcus Aurelius. And I have a quote from him, and the whole argument I'm gonna make here is uh about love in relation to the self, and then I'm gonna connect it back to peace at the end. Or not peace, joy, sorry, joy at the end. Um, so one quote from Marcus Aurelius said, the things ordained for you teach yourself to be at one with those, and the people who share them with you treat them with love with real love. And real was emphasized, it was in italics, and uh that made me even more curious, like even more confused, um, about what he meant by real love. And so I kind of did more digging and kind of looked through the stoic lens of what Marcus Aurelius thought love was, and it's often defined as this complete and utter like selflessness, um, but it's rational at the same time. And it remains unconditional, doesn't have any assumptions, uh conditions, or judgments in in this sense. It's harmonious of it's like a almost senseless because it's so like what's the word? Almost risky in terms of its how far it goes with its acceptance of fate and humanity, especially with its acceptance and temperance relating to bad things in the world. And it's often described as cultivating internal compassion and affection for others and oneself, being devoid of volatile attachment, emotional attachment, and passions. And I'm thinking uh uh this all made sense to me when I initially read it. Um I'm kind of reading through my notes right now, and there seems to be this idea of selflessness completely ridding a part of yourself in order to sort of tap into this quote unquote real love, if that's what we're calling it. Um I kind of had this idea that I wrote down that in order to love actually before we get to that, you said that in order to love anyone, you have to we have to love everyone, which I think is great, by the way. I think it's a little bit more specific. I don't want to say better, but it's just different than the common quote that everybody says that um you can't love anyone unless you love yourself first, or you gotta love yourself before you can love everyone else. Um then it's like I I think I went a step further, a step in a different direction, off of those two quotes, and said you can't know uh what love is until you see that you are love itself and that you are playing a game, essentially, that you are not. So it's a masquerade, a misalignment, seems like a waste of time, and it bears no fruit, essentially. And I want to get into Alan Watts, which is my second person here, in a quote he said. He said, the first thing that he says to himself is man get lost because he gives himself away. For the nature of love is self-abandonment, not clinging to oneself, getting rid of the ball, in the sense of passing a ball and basketball, getting rid of it constantly. And there is I when I first heard that, I was so confused because I'm like, what is he talking about with self-abandonment? It it just made no sense to me. It seemed it seemed unreasonable, actually. And I d I dug a little further and found another quote. I have a lot written down, but I'm trying to make this brief. I don't know if that's working or not, but he said, within the infinite multiplicity, multiplicity of choices you have, of playing that you weren't God, because the whole nature of the Godhead, according to this idea, is to play that he's not. So, in this sense, you're contradicting contradicting yourself, playing a masquerade in real life that you are not of the Godhead or of this impersonal sort of idea of God that exists as love. You're kind of ignoring that part of yourself, and uh and as a result, you live a life that's sort of contradictory, shallow, it doesn't feel right. And in the sense of kind of realizing this and going back towards it and seeing it, and realizing that you kind of have love itself in yourself, once you shed your ego and get rid of it, you can see that you can use it, this idea of love in this specific way, as a tool to get closer to returning to the truth or returning to whatever you want to call it. I know we like to call it God or the universe or whatever. It'll actually, I think, this is my idea, love can not only be seen as a reasonable thing, but it can be also used as a sort of tool to get you closer to truth, to get you closer to the other virtues, make you more tolerant of other people in the world in this kind of way. And I'm wondering if you kind of see what I mean here with this idea of love as a tool, um, through the lens of like a stoic idea of the acceptance of fate, and through the idea of what Alan Watts touched on through kind of shedding away the ego and stuff like that. So I'm kind of I just was curious as to what you thought about this, um, because initially I did disagree with the idea, or I was kind of rocky with the idea of love being of reason and not an emotion, but I think it's because real love to its furthest, greatest extent, is very reasonable and it often invokes joy, which can be seen as emotional. So it might cause it, cause the best kind of emotion in that sense. But love itself um ultimately is not of emotion, and I think I can agree with that at this point. Um, but that's kind of what I've been thinking, so I just wanted to hear your thoughts about that. I know I threw a lot out there, but if any of it made sense, then yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

Uh that's okay. And and do you realize what a wonderful thing you're doing by thinking about what is love and all the things it's connected to and the nature it is of and the things it allows us to do and the things it saves us from? And do you realize what a wonderful occupation this is?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, I uh what yeah. Like when when I first started digging into this, it's almost like you dig so far that you end up confusing yourself.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

But right, but just to be engaged in it, just to just to yeah uh follow the calling within you to figure these things out, right? What is truth? Yeah, what is beauty, what is justice, what is love um among all the things you could be doing with your time. What a wonderful thing you're doing, right? And uh we're all doing. And so let's recognize that first, right? Let's not give in to confusion because confusion is forgetting what a wonderful thing this is. Right? Confusion says there's something wrong. Um there's something expected of me. Uh there's clarity expected of me. But that expectation comes from yourself, which is not really you, it's the false self, it comes from the ego, right? The the ego is what expects, uh, has expectations on others, is therefore also disappointed in others and in the self. Who is disappointed with him? Right? You uh your true nature, that which you truly are, it doesn't get disappointed because it doesn't have expectations. And so truth is simple. That's the feature, the ultimate nature and feature of truth is simplicity. And so if we are to connect love to truth or to know what love is, it needs to be simple also. Nothing confused about and confusing about it, right? Simple, simple, simple. And so let's ask ourselves what is love not?

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

Does love expect?

SPEAKER_02 10:40

No, it doesn't. I think a lot of what people well I don't want to generalize here or assume or anything, but a lot of kind of what we see is these emotional attachments that are like volatile and they have expectations and certain standards that we want in another person in order for it to make sense, which which definitely is not of love. Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

So so let's go let but let's just listen to the intuit intuition, let's not go too deep into intellect, right? Intellect is truly a tool, the mind is a tool, it's wonderful, right? But we well when you get when you um are led by it purely, yeah, then then you get into those rabbit holes, right? So let's listen to the the intellect, the the intuit let's listen to the intuitive understanding of things, right? Just which comes up immediately because it's in your nature to discern these things. So does love expect I don't no, not necessarily, I don't think so. Discriminate no. Does love judge?

SPEAKER_03 11:53

No.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

Does love get angry?

SPEAKER_02 11:58

No, there's no anger, no.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

Does love ask you to prove anything to anyone, including yourself, and including to it?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

No, there's no proof. I think there's acceptance. I think acceptance would probably be better here.

SPEAKER_05 12:15

Does love as long as the author is prove it, yeah. Does love ever feel that it has been betrayed?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

No. I think it would like to, but I don't think it does, no.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

Does so-called romantic love do all of these things?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Do all does romantic love do all these things in the sense that's Does Romantic love expect? Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

It does not?

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I don't think so. If it does expect, it expects that two people that are engaged in it are of love itself. They're aligned in that sense. That would be like the only expectation I would think.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

So uh people in a romantic relationship do not expect support from the other person?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

They do, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:17

Do they um do they uh expect to be protected by the other person?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yes, there is like I don't want to term these things as like basic. I feel like that's a very wrong way to describe them, but the typical things like I guess being compassionate to each other. I'm I'm really having trouble understanding it.

SPEAKER_05 13:45

Uh yeah, in a romantic relationship these things are expected and many more, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:50

I think it's the romantic way that's kind of confusing me.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

Romantic as in what people think a love is what they seek in another human being. Right? Uh-huh. Uh girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, husband relationships. In these relationships, all of these things occur, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Or are they expected to occur for them to be ideal?

SPEAKER_05 14:18

Yeah, and they they take place. I mean, uh when you are in a romantic relationship, you fight for that person. First of all, you fight for their love, right? You fight to you fight to so-called attain uh a partner, a lover, whatever you want to call it. And then once you have them, you fight other things in their name. You protect them, you prove your love to them periodically, if not constantly, right? You make shows of love, meaning you say, This is my proof that I love for you. I did this for you. And the other person says is either satisfied or dissatisfied with that, whatever, but if they're satisfied, then they do something in return for you. Right? That's another feature of romantic love, the sacrifice. You sacrifice, I say. Uh in a relationship, you have to make sacrifices. You hear that all the time, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah, this this I'm not really agreeing with this. It seems like it's it's you're attaching yourself to the other person and having expectations of it. And we just kind of discussed that love itself doesn't have any kind of like expectations or anything like that.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

Exactly, and that's my point. Romantic love is not love.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Exactly. Okay, good. We're in agreement there. I can agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

What people call love, uh, when they when whenever people say love, they mean romantic love. So-called.

unknown 15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:52

So-called yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

But but romantic love is not love. That's what I'm saying. Um, and it's the same with so-called friendship love, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

Same exact thing, the expectations, the sacrifices, the proving, the fighting, the all that.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

Uh you you weren't there for me as a friend. Yeah, right. And so you don't love me, clearly, right? Yeah, right. Um, so so where were you on my birthday? Where were you on my graduation? Where were you when I really needed you? Where were you when I was crying? You know, and so and so you sacrificed your time uh and you do all these things. And so that's friendship look. Same with uh filial love, so-called family love. Right. Same thing. Yeah. When people say these are the types of love, you know, romantic friend family, there's love and then there's something else. There are no types of love.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Right, I agree.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

Yeah, I agree because as soon as you have types of love, you're discriminating.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 17:00

Because you can't love everyone like a lover, you can't love everyone like a friend, you can't you can't love everyone like family, because people who are not genetically related to you, you can't love as a family. People who are so-called bad people, thieves and robbers, and people who torture animals, you cannot love them as friends. And uh people you are not attracted to physically, you cannot love as lovers. So these are all discriminations, yeah, and exclusions and and judgments, because you're looking at the person and saying, I judge you good, so I will love you in one of the categories, or I judge you bad, and so you I I will I will withhold love from you. Yeah, and so we we get into this mode of being, which is clearly not love, and the opposite of love, or rather not only the opposite, but out when you are outside of love, you are within hate. Right?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

When you're discriminating, but hate is hate of discrimination, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:11

Yeah, when you're discriminating, when you are fighting, when you are proving and succeeding or failing, all these things, these are this is hate. And so when people love each other, they uh they're actually hating each other. And yeah, this is this is what I'm trying to point out to people who think Yeah, that's really bad. Right? And so that's bad, and so we're so far away from love that we're calling hate love. Uh, but it's also simple, simple, simple, right? It's so simple. Once you see the separation, once you see the stress, once you see the disturbance that so-called love brings, you ought to know that it is not love. It's so simple, it's so obvious, right? And so what then is love? And we don't want to define love, we don't want to give it a definition like any other old thing, right? But we certainly want to know what it is not, and so we just went through what it is not, and just by doing that, um you're already seeing how to be in love without even needing to define it, without even ever needing to know exactly what is it. I know all the things that it's not, I know it's not hate, I know it's not all these things that people suffer from. Uh and just by the way, this is another obvious thing. The most so-called loved people are the most hated people.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Right? Yeah. Whenever you get into a romantic relationship and the person fails to fight for you, prove you things, make you feel special, make you feel amazing, make you feel smart, uh, give you everything that you deserve and that you give them, by the way, right? It's only fair that you they give it to you. When they fail to do that, as soon as they fail to do that, they become the most hated person. Um I thought uh I thought you were this, but you turned out really to be this. And that's an example. You weren't there for me, right? And you weren't there for me, and and love is support. Love is to be in a supportive relationship. And so you failed to be there for me. So essentially, you stabbed me in the back. Right, yeah. You promised to be there for me and you and you failed. And so the most loved people turn into the most hated people, and so it doesn't get more obvious than any of these things, not even in combinations, pick anyone. It doesn't get more obvious that what we think is love commonly is in fact hate commonly. And so yeah, just to me, this is now me personal, uh, I always want to uh reduce something, synthesize something so that I can live by it.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

Um with a few simple directives, right? What I don't want to have to have this conversation with myself every time where I go through the entire what is love, what is not love, and and all the experiences and all the evidence. Yeah. And uh so I want to find, you know, I want to find just that right angle where I can see it, see it. And to me, that angle, that method of being and remaining in love and to stay away from all else is to see love as a disposition, as a direction, as an intention of wishing. Wishing everyone well and and what's wishing everyone well uh or or just what is wishing well to wish well is this I wish that you know right from wrong, good from bad, awareness from unawareness, love from hate, and that you can always discern good from bad, true from wrong. And so this is the wish. This is to wish well, and what is more well than this? What's a bigger wish that one human being can wish for another? To me, there is no grander, bigger, uh in in any scale, shape, or form, uh a bigger, more valuable wish than this. And this wish I do not only wish my also special, amazing, one in a million romantic partner, or my best friend, or my father, or my mother. This wish I can and do and must extend to every single human being who has ever lived and will ever live. And I am able to do this now. And this is the this is the feature of love now. No, this is the nature of love, that no separation, um, no exclusion, no, this person is special and these people are not. No specialty, uh, no judgment. Because I don't need to judge. What am I judging? Who's good, who's bad, who's worth less or more of this wish. People who are of truth, of justice, of love, uh, they might not particularly be in need of this wish, but I can wish it to them. And those people who are liars, cheaters, deceivers, who don't know right from wrong, who are confused, conflicted, hateful people, well, them uh, of course I wish them this too. Who could benefit more from this wish than those people? But I don't need to judge to give this wish because I'm giving it to everyone. I don't need to know who you are. In fact, we cannot be in a romantic relationship with nine billion people or in a friendly relationship, or even those people who say, Well, we're all brothers and sisters, and they're right, but you need to know your brother and your sister to love them. You cannot love a brother that you don't know about, in the classical sense of family love, right? I know my family, and so I love them. And uh, by the way, even in that, like if the black sheep of the family, we don't love the black sheep of the family, right? Even there there's discrimination.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I've been there.

SPEAKER_05 24:54

Exactly. And um, but with this love as wishing well, love as an intention, love as just a simple direction, um, an attitude, if you will, this can extend to anyone and everyone without having to know them, without certainly without judging them, without uh estimating their worth or discerning their qualities. None of it. None of it. It's within me. And um anyone who is able to wish everyone well is someone who does not hate anyone, correct? How can you wish someone well in this this grandest, most amazing, beautiful wish? How can you extend this to someone whom you hate? You could not. So this is what it means to love anyone. You you cannot love anyone until you love everyone. This is how to love everyone, and this therefore is to love how to love anyone. Now, does this mean don't have any friends, don't care about your family, don't uh get married and start a family? Of course not. Of course not. Because to start a family, you need a another human being to do that with. And so just to be sure though, this is what we're doing here. We're not conquering love, we're not finding love and finally make ourselves complete and worthy of truth and peace and God and goodness and and and honesty and and all diversity. That's not what we're doing here by finding a so-called romantic partner. We're already that's where all goes wrong. Exactly. We're already full, complete people who are not only deserving, but are already within and able to be of love, truth, justice, everything you ever wanted, everything that is in your nature. It's already there. You're already able to have it, you already had it when you were born, and you certainly are uh allowed to have it, and you are worth having it. Someone else will not and cannot give you that worth or that permission or that ability, that capability, that potential. No one can give you that. That's what everyone's out there looking for. Someone to complete them, someone to make them worthy, someone to make them able to be at peace, to be complete, to be of truth, to know God, if that's what whatever the story is, right? And so all of these things we already have. And so when we when we uh make a friend, when we uh meet a family member, when we meet someone who could be our future uh uh partner, a spouse, whatever, we must be sure that we know that this person is not going to make us better or worse. This is just a person that we want to be, if we want to be, not need to be. Right there's a vast yeah, it's a subtle but very vast difference between needing someone and wanting someone.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:43

Everyone here who's listening, who's speaking, uh wants to be here. They don't need to be here. Whether they know it or not, they don't need to be here. And so everyone in a romantic relationship, uh, whether they know it or not, they don't need to be in it. Right? And if they don't want to be in it, then they should leave it. But people don't because they think they need it. Well, they should have no qualms with leaving it if they want, then right. Exactly. And if they don't want to leave it, if they like the person, well, then then just continue. Then then you but either way, you're there because you want to, not because you need to. And so this is what it means to uh not being able to love everyone until uh being able uh not being able to love anyone until being able to love everyone. And this is how to love everyone, and this is how to love anyone, any one particular person also. So simple, so simple. Once you know it, it's so simple. And uh complication comes from all the things that we put into it.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yep, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Yeah, and so there's no need for confusion. I know confusion happens, everyone's confused, but uh learning is unlearning. Learning is not complication, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:13

So we're all out there that might be what makes it complicated because you're holding on to past ideas and you're trying to digest new ones, and you end up confusing yourself and all that.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

Everyone is out there trying to learn what love is, what truth is, what justice is, by uh studying in the philosophy departments, by studying in the churches and the mosques and the this and that. But it's not an addition, it's a substr subtraction. You already know this as a child by not knowing it. No one's told you yet about romantic love about all this, let's say, right? Although that starts super early. Um whenever that time is, if there is such a time, though technically there is, you already know this by not knowing. You don't think of you don't even know maybe the word love. But you know, you know you're a full human being. You who the the idea that you're incomplete is put into your head afterwards. You're not born thinking, yeah, you're not born thinking you're incomplete and then spend your whole life trying to complete yourself. That's added on to you. That's exactly learning is unlearning, and learning at the same time is also remembering. Remember this that you knew that that you knew this as a child. Remember all the things that you did know, and now through all your learning forgot.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah, we really do have to spend a lot of time in that remembering. We have to constantly expose ourselves to it because after just you know being exposed to everything that's contrary for a long time, that's just our natural mode, you know. And we have to Yeah, it's constant re-exposure to what is just what we knew since the beginning before everything got twisted in a sense.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Exactly. And again, no ill will, right? All these people, uh, so-called society, your parents, the people around you, whoever that is, them telling you this was not with evil intention. They're not trying to mess you up, they're not trying to confuse you, they're only passing on what they think is best, right? They're also looking. They think they're incomplete, and there's such a thing as completion that can come through uh some sort of an achievement, whether that's a love sort of achievement or a career achievement or this or that or knowledge. Uh, that's why they're telling you that because they assume, since they know that they're incomplete, they assume that you are too. And so they're already trying to give you the best tools. You know, I've gotten so far in this experience, in this adventure, in this exploration. So I'm just I just want to give you all this so that you can build on it. No, actually, what you're giving me is baggage and confusion and and lies.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Um then the biggest mistake is is thinking that at the start, ever since the start, that you're incomplete.

SPEAKER_05 33:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

The w probably the worst thing you probably do for yourself.

SPEAKER_05 33:11

In anything. In in so-called love, in in in knowledge, in in uh peace, and truth and everything.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Um that immediately prompts external seeking for something to make you complete. Immediately, of course. You because you don't have it immediately.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

If you don't have it, you're gonna look it outside for for it outside of you, of course. It's super logical, super logical. Uh, but it's just wrong information. Logic based on long wrong information is still logic, but it's just it's gonna lead you to peril.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Misguided one.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

Um Yeah, and so and so we have to always remember that too. This is what prevents us from loving, also, in the true sense, when we think that, oh, society messed me up, and society tells us lies and they keep us caged in all these narratives, right? Society, uh, while it might be doing that objectively, that that can be debated, but the intention is not that. There's no such intention, there's no such narrative there. And so uh we must not fall into that either, because if we fall into that, how can we love the individuals that make up society? How can we wish them well when they don't wish us well at all, when they are only interested in keeping us down? Of course, I'm not gonna wish someone like that well, but that's not the case.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Of course, there's this uh idea that I've always had that blame has to go somewhere. I've always said that with because that's what I've observed with people, is they always want something to blame, and that's just already a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

That's gonna lead you to think less, at the very least, think less of the thing that you're blaming. And that's of course not good.

SPEAKER_05 34:51

So yeah, that's that's a good thing to live by. And uh, you know, having said all this now, how could we possibly think of love as an emotion? You see what I mean? Yeah. Because um love is quite the opposite of that. In love, there is no anger, in love there is no fear, in love, there is no bitterness, resentment, uh, confusion, all these things. Um in love, there is also no pride, the so-called good emo emotion of pride. There's no pride. In love, there is no ecstasy.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

Uh in the world. It's almost like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah. I'm viewing it as like a almost like a state. I don't know if state is the right word, but it's kind of like a you're in like a like, I guess, a state of existence where you're just in a state of acceptance, almost like tranquility. And when you say wishing someone well, you're wishing that they are properly aligned in their because you say we're all equal in potential, which I also agree with, and everyone is properly aligned with with the truth, and you want to wish that for them, and sort of like in a detached manner, but I don't know if detached is the right word.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

But well, of course you detach because you don't even know them. Right. How can you be attached to something you don't care about? You know, and you don't care about it because you simply don't know of its existence. You don't know this person. I don't need to know though, for this wish. That's the point. And um, this is the thing. And so, of course, love is not an emotion. And love you you said it's a state. That's exactly what it is. I always say that. Yeah, that's what love is a state of being, and that state is peace.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yeah, that's right. That's I can see that. Yeah, that makes more sense.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

So, this is the so-called function of love. We do not we do not want to be within with love for its function, not at all. It's it's not a utility to us. But the the the function, the way that it fits into this universe, into everything, is that it allows us to be free. To to be in the state of love is be is to be in the state of peace, and peace is freedom. Freedom from what? From all the burdens, from the hate, from the anger, from the fear, from the bitterness, from the vengeance, from the fighting, from the proving, from all of that. It's to be love is to be free from all that. And the awareness, which is what you are, the attention, the the consciousness, whatever you want to call it, the the uh the the looker, the experiencer, right? Right uh, when that one is free through love, now it is free to do what? To be of truth, to be aligned with truth. Uh when you are not free, you are misaligned with truth because you're hating and you're and you're and you're deceiving and you're cheating and you're just frustrated and you're angry. And truth is none of these things. So you're out of alignment due to those things with truth. So love is the piece that makes you free to come back to alignment. Yeah, alignment and justice and and all that is truly good.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Yeah, they're all kind of up there together, aren't they?

SPEAKER_05 38:15

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I don't even like making lists and to think about it that way, but certainly when you um when you say what is the highest good? What is the highest good? Truth comes to mind, of course. Truth is truly good and wholly good. Justice. Yeah. Justice is truly good and wholly good. Love is truly good and wholly good. There's nothing bad about these things, not a single thing. Holly good. Um and so this is certainly the highest good to me. There might be more, who knows? But uh I feel like as long as you're with these things and you truly understand in the in the true sense, not in the knowledge sense, but in the in the in the being with uh in the being of the same nature, these things type of understanding. If you understand in that sense these things, uh you you I think you're okay. Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Yeah. Oh, I can see where I kind of like to not think of it as a tool. If anything, if if the tool is anything, it's probably just our attention and awareness to kind of get there and use those properties.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

You know, if anything, I w I I might say it's a method. Not that love is a method, but to me, the the wishing well is the method of love. And then love has the function, even though it's not about the function, of doing this, right? Of aligning, allowing ourselves to be aligned with truth once again. So I use the wishing well as both as a direction, as an intention, as a disposition, as well as a very concrete act. A very, very concrete act in every single thing I do every single day. You know, it it's very simple. You're at the grocery store and someone backs into you with a with a cart, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:11

I wish you well. You know what I mean? I mean, it's so it's it's that simple and it's that basic. I wish you well. I say, hey, uh, watch out. You know, there's such an inconsiderate, ignorant person. I I mean can you pay some attention? Show some respect to the people around you.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

I mean, are these all things that we hear every day?

SPEAKER_02 40:32

It's so much easier to do that than it is to do the former that you mentioned, right? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

Exactly. So instead of doing that, you can either do that or you can wish them up. Right. Because you've been ignorant, you've been so-called disrespectful, you've been inattentive, you've done all of these things. And so is is everyone sick and everyone's evil and everyone's a maniac, or are we just all we we are all just good people who make mistakes?

SPEAKER_04 41:03

Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:04

Yeah, and so um, and when I say good people, I don't mean, oh, there's such a good person. No, good as in just neutral. You mean like we just don't have it in us naturally. It comes from ignorance that we do these things. And so I wish that person well, and I also wish the all those people well who, you know, not to name any specific things, but who you know are not are are perhaps cruel to animals, uh cruel to children, uh, uh anything, uh deceive, cheat, lie, um, you know, take advantage of I mean, whatever it is, whatever it is. I I wish them well, of course I do. What would be better for me? Again, and we could this could be a whole different conversation of how you were talking about selflessness before. Uh to me, true selflessness is selfishness. Um, true selflessness is true selfishness, in the sense that what would be better for me as the well-wisher for all those so-called ignorant, evil, wrongdoing people, for my wish to come true for them, so that they finally understand what is good and what is right, so that they st finally stop doing wrong things, thinking they're right things, that they are finally able to tell truth from lies, that they're finally understand what awareness is and what unawareness is, what ignorance is and what it is not. These this is my well-wish, right? So what's for all the right reasons right now? Yeah, exactly. So, what would be better for me for all humans, onto which all of them I wish this, for my wish to come true for them.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

What would be better for me? I'm not even thinking about them, right? Of course it'd be great for them, uh obviously. Yeah, but without even thinking about that, what would be what would be better for me than for those people to um live according to my wish for that wish to come true? So that to me is a very selfish thing to do if you think about it. However, the truly selfish things in the in this sense are also the things that are best for everyone else, you and everyone else. It just happens to be that way. I'm not selfish to be selfless. No, I'm selfish to be selfish because I'm selfish, you know. But um when it's true selfishness, then it just ends up also being true selflessness.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:35

And and and uh true fake selflessness leads to true selfishness. When people say, Oh, I'm I'm a charitable person, right? And I and I and I do do good for other people. I don't care about myself. I do for no you're not. No, you're not. You're doing it for yourself because you wanna be a complete person, you wanna you wanna be a good person. You want to better yourself, you want to do all you want to achieve all, and you do and you think you can do that through all these things.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

That's the external dependency. Yep. That's literally the invert of the of the actual true self selfishness that you just described.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Exactly. So I would rather be truly selfish than be so-called selfless. Right?

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Yep. Yeah. I think that's what Alan Watts meant. I think that's what he meant by self-abandonment. It's abandoning the parts of yourself that are like that, that are usually aligned with the ego specifically. Not your true, true self. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

Self-abandonment is, you know, you might be beyond this, and that's what's confusing you. What most people think is the self is their age, their occupation, their nationality, their partner, who they know, who who they who they are liked by, and um, and their dreams and ambitions and worries and fears. That's what most people think they are. So when you abandon the self, this is what you're supposed to abandon.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:05

And what remains is the true self, which is just the well-wisher.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Right.

SPEAKER_05 45:12

Just the one who wishes well. That's it. And in that, in that well-wishing, there's no nationality, there's no age, there's no name, there's no career, there's no reputation, there's none of that.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Yeah. So we can't even necessarily argue that there's even a form of any kind in that sense. Right. In the true self. Like we don't like the only thing I could call it is it, quote unquote. I don't I don't know what it is, but it's there, certainly there. So exactly.

SPEAKER_05 45:46

And to be aware of this is just to be, just to be, to be. You know, people are whenever you're striving to be, you are actually not at all being, because it's that external thing again that I know you're aware of, but just to talk about it in this sense also, whenever you're striving, you are saying, I need something, otherwise you wouldn't be striving, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

And so all these people are are striving to become, to make something of themselves. Isn't that what everyone says? I need to make something, or I want to make something of myself. You already are.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:24

Um, so anything you're seeking or you're striving for necessarily must be that which has nothing to do with you. Otherwise, you couldn't strive for it. You would already be it, not only have it, but be it.

unknown 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

And so uh, and again, there's nothing wrong with having uh an objective in the physical world and to try to do something. Nothing wrong with that. Uh you can even, you can, you can colonize Mars, you can make this entire planet somehow run off of a new source of energy, whatever you want to achieve in this world, it's all fine, it's all great. Um, but don't identify with it. If you think that that mission of yours, this great thing that you're doing, which truly objectively is great if it is, um if you think that is you or that it's gonna make you a better person or a worse person, whatever, um, then you're identifying with something that you're not. And that is always peril.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

I like to call that the identity trap because I think about that all the time.

unknown 47:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

That's what I like to call it. But because it really is a trap. It's it's bad.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

Um and that which keeps us from seeing all of this are things like love, because uh we we think that when we give, we need to give love up, you know, or we need to give up all these things that we're trying to achieve, like uh a career, or do we want to change the world, we want to make it a better place, right? And so I'm supposed to give all that up, I'm supposed to give up society and live in the woods and on a mountain. No, it doesn't mean any of that. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means that if you identify with it, you have already defeated the purpose of you doing all these things.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 48:09

And so, what's the point of doing it then? So find the the real you and the real, thereby also automatically the real reason to do these things, the proper reason, the proper you and the proper reason that comes out of that, rather than the false you and the false reason to do all these so-called charity things and to do these good things and to look for love, you don't even know what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Right. Yeah, I I think in this sense, love is very mature, and I feel like it it takes a minute to sit down and kind of even though it's simple and it's the purest sense, it takes a minute because we're we're so entrapped in those other sets of like beliefs or ways of thinking, that that's what makes it seem difficult to realize what it is because of that shift over in thoughts and ways of thinking. And I think but well, I don't want to assume or judge, but I feel like most people get into trouble with this in relationships is because they simply just don't know what love is itself. Yeah. And that's what I was afraid of for myself. That's why I wanted to look into this before I, you know, you know, did anything with relationships or anything like that, of course.

SPEAKER_05 49:15

So we don't know what love is, we don't know what justice is, right? We don't know uh what the self is even. And so with that basis, how are you ever gonna do anything?

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yeah, this is a great worry for me. This is very concerning for me. It makes me uncomfortable, actually.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Why?

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Um that most people well I don't want to say most people because that feels like rude, but most people are like this in a sense. I wish most people were more aware of you know what the real self is and ego and it's a concern to you that other people are in this ignorance? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Yeah. Uh because they're not where I don't want to say they're not where they're supposed to be, but they're making the trouble for themselves. They're making more trouble for themselves than they need to, essentially.

SPEAKER_05 50:07

But are you responsible for other people's salvation?

SPEAKER_02 50:11

No, yeah, I guess not. So I guess in that sense, I'm troubling myself.

SPEAKER_05 50:15

Yeah. See, the trouble is inside of you, it's not coming from others. Because you're not responsible to save them. And in fact, you are not even able to save them. Have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:31

Have you noticed that you cannot save anyone? You cannot save your wife, you cannot save your children, you cannot save your parents, you cannot save your friends, you cannot save anyone. Have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Well, it's up to them. It's also inside of them then.

SPEAKER_05 50:45

Yeah. You cannot save anyone because you cannot force anyone to become better or worse.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

It's impossible to force someone against their own will to do what they whatever they choose to do, I think.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

Especially when it comes to this, you can force some you can bribe someone and force them to give you some sort of document or whatever. That's the physical profane world. But in the in the realm of ideas, you cannot force anyone to believe anything. I could give you$300 billion right now to tell me that at noon today to go by a window and to say, it is nighttime right now, and to actually believe it. I could make you say it, but I could not make you believe it. I I could not say, not only say that it is dark when it is daytime, but believe it also. There is nothing I can do, no bribe I can offer, or no stick, right? Nothing I can threaten you with to make you, to force you to believe. I can maybe somehow deceive you, but but I cannot downright say the the objective is that you will call night, day, and you will actually believe it. There is nothing I can do to force you to that. And so just in the same way, and that's such a simple thing in in uh in in relation to that, uh, just in the same way. How can you force someone to understand love? How can you force someone to be aligned with truth? How can you force someone to understand what what true selfishness is or any of these things, right? To to liberate them from false beliefs. There's nothing you can do about that. You can't even hardly liberate yourself from these things.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

I think there's an argument to where you could help guide them, though, kind of perhaps show them things. But ultimately, again, it's up to them. It's a suggestion. It's up to them.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

If they're close to that suggestion, it was not going to do anything. And if they're open to it, they more likely than not will some will get it from someone else also. Um No, yeah, I'm all for I mean, what am I doing here? I'm all for passing suggestions that I too find get from friends uh onto other people who are open to receive them. That's that's what we're doing here. But I would never for a second um argue with someone or try to force them. Not for a second, because it just doesn't work. That's what Yeah, I can hardly uh I I can't even save myself. The only thing I can do is to remain open to be a receiver, right? Um, but I cannot just just sit there and make myself free. I can't even do that for myself. All I can do is remain open to have my beliefs challenged. And then still something needs to come in and and something needs to happen, and I need to process that, be remain open to that and explore something. And then it is the thing itself, that which I am open to that is liberating me, not me.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 53:56

It was not me who, you know, if you gained any kind of insight from this conversation, it was not me who did that. It was the ideas that I merely communicated, which I got from somewhere else. I did not invent these things.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

Right? So it's the idea itself that whatever it did, if it did anything for you, that's what did it. It was not me, it was not my words, it was not the way I thought, it was not what anything. It was not anything that has anything to do with me. It just lives in us. We or rather we partake in it. We partake in truth, we partake in love, we partake in justice. We do not invent it, we do not make it better, we do not make it worse, we cannot defend it, we cannot save it, we cannot destroy it, we cannot attack it, we cannot do anything to it other than partake in it, which is not something we do to it. We just partake in it. Right. And that's all we can do. And so if you see even the people closest to you or not at all close to you, and you see an opportunity for introducing a suggestion, passing on a suggestion, uh of course, uh do it if you want to. You don't need to, but if you want to, of course, it'd be a great thing for you to do, but that's all you can do. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:13

And so do not at all allow fear or uh any other thing that the ego does to um somehow make you feel that way. Look at other people and be disappointed or be bitter or be disillusioned or be or even feel sorry for them. Who are you to pity someone, right? And that is what it is when we say, Oh, this person is so ignorant. We've judged them, we've pitied them, we've done already so many things, all these are vices, right? Right. So you must stay away from that. This is what you can do for yourself, this is what is important for you to do. And so that requires you to understand you cannot save anyone. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. Just like you were able to do it, everyone's able to do it. Because, like you mentioned earlier, we are all identical in potential, not in actuality, clearly, but in potentiality, we are identical.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 56:17

Yeah. And so it truly, yeah, whenever you remain open like this, whenever you practice acceptance and you just go with truth, justice, love, all these things, you cannot go wrong, and there will be no fear, there will be no anger, there will be no bitterness, there will be no resentment of any kind. And as I always say, the presence of anger or fear or resentment or any of these so-called uh emotions, which also happen to be vices at the same time, if you notice, um are perfect indicators that you are to whatever degree misaligned with truth. Which in turn only is the amazing uh opportunity to come back in alignment. You know, whenever there's fear and anger with you, it's like, oh, thank you so much. If you wouldn't point it out to me, I might have never known.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:16

You see, and realizing you're in that in the first place, and then otherwise you might never know. And so I am thankful to even uh anger, to even have my peace disturbed because that's already happening. You know, the anger is just an indicator, and I can go with that and I bec can become angry, and I can uh go into all these illusions that anger is a good thing and a necessary thing, and it's it's helping me beyond this just basic function of being alerting me, but that it does anything else for me. Uh-uh. Imagine all the things you can slip into. But um yeah, everything is there for a reason. And when I say for a reason, I'm not saying some like uh God has put it there and there's a plan. And I I don't even mean that, although you can believe that, but I'm just saying everything that exists came about due to necessity.

unknown 58:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Absolute necessity too. Just yeah, like nothing else is needed in that sense.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

Right. Right. If it wasn't needed, it would have never become real. That's right. Just like an evolution. If if an animal doesn't have a certain trait, it's because it was not necessary.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Yep, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 58:30

And if it does have it, that means it was necessary. I mean, that's why this thousands and millions of years of something happened, because there was a necessity.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 58:42

And so it is with everything, especially and these are just physical things. That's just that was just a physical example, especially with things like the ideas and and you know, justice, truth, love, all of these things are necessity itself.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Yep. There's no reason they've been around for forever, you know.

SPEAKER_05 59:02

Exactly. And so so it is with ignorance, and so it is with all the so-called bad things, right? Bad is just again a narrative. It's a human concept. Um but ignorance as the absence of awareness is the most necessary thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:20

Shadow as the absence of light is the most necessary thing. It must be. And there's nothing wrong with it, so to speak. In that true sense. And so, yeah, well, uh amazing conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, hey, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

I appreciate that. Yeah, sorry if I took too long, guys.

SPEAKER_05 59:39

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Every conversation takes as as long as once again is necessary. And this was necessary exactly the way it was, and and not only necessary, but we can be grateful for this. I'm so grateful for uh people such as yourself who are. I mean, again, you could be doing all these other things. You could be hating, you could be uh bitter, you can be expecting, you can be proving something to someone right now. No, rather rather you are here, uh, and of course, generally in your life, not just here, you're exploring these things of the most fundamental value and necessity. And not only that, you're actually doing it and you're remaining open and all these things are happening. And and this is what you're engaged in. And and as you know, around that, we call that the around here, we call that the work of life. Yes. And um, yep, you're you're choosing the work of life rather than all these other things that most people do most of the time. Yeah, um, and so that's so amazing. And so, and so thank you for bringing that here so that we were able to have this conversation and talk about these things.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Of course. Thank you guys for having me too. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:50

Absolutely. And uh so I will uh put you back to the audience for now. Um again with great gratitude. Thank you so much. That was that was amazing. And if we just did this a little bit all the time, can you imagine what an amazing life we would have and already have? It's the most beautiful thing. And um, I will invite our next speaker.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Hello. Hi I wanted to talk about something I'm struggling with. Yeah, good and it's social anxiety. And I feel like it's a big identity. Um and what I've identified with is how I appear to other people. Um like I'm I value myself how I appear to other people. Um sorry, one thing. No take your time. Oh yeah. Um since last week's discussion, um the first speaker um I think she was struggling with the way that the ego was getting her through identifying with being a virtuous person or a person at peace. And I think um this social anxiety is how the ego gets me. And for a long time I've been thinking that um this is like a special case and that I've yeah, I've come to realize recently that social situations are how the ego gets me. So it knows that it can make me scared and I think fear manifests um most often in social situations and in these situations I notice that my state of mind is linked to how I appear to other people.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:32

So how do you know how you appear to other people? Um how I speak. But how do you know uh what your actions cause in other people? How many times has it happened to you where you gave someone a compliment or you you just said something out of a totally neutral or good nature, and they misunderstood it, and they thought your intention was different than what it was. Has that ever happened to you? Oh, I think so. Right. So you thought that what you said was gonna have a certain effect, and it had a totally different effect, right? And it was objectively not wrong of you to say or do this thing. It's just the other person either didn't hear it right or they were in their head about something else, and so they they misunderstood, either misheard or misunderstood what you said, and then they draw their own conclusions from that, and then their response does not match at all to reality, right? So what happened was they thought something to be real that in fact was an illusion. Okay, but every single thing that causes other people to react to what they do is their illusion of things. So it's a narrative, it's an interpretation. Even when they respond the way you expect, they're responding based on an illusion. Based on what they think what you did or said means. And what they think it means might be what you intended it to mean. But it's still based on interpretation, it's based on narration, it's based on their own past, it's based on their beliefs and opinions, right? And their information or lack of information. All these things. Go on within a human's mind. And you cannot at all know that. And when someone looks at you, they are not seeing you. No one is seeing you the way that you really are. Right? Because everyone is primed and has a worldview and is looking at things in a way. I'm not saying everyone's different, because of course there are commonalities. But when we look at another person, we well and truly only see an image, right? They are not us. It is not the same being, and it's not the same essence. It's not the exact same consciousness. And so we are not them. And so necessarily what we are seeing are images, interpretation. And images are illusions. Images are depictions of real things, not the thing itself, right? So everything is a depiction. Everything is an image. And in many ways, everything is an illusion. Illusion not as a not real, but again, that which references something real. Like the language, the words I speak, they're not unreal, but they're also not the thing itself. So in that way, they're an image, they're only surface level. And we can change that image for the so-called good or bad, right? We can push and pull. But it doesn't change reality. It doesn't change reality. You are exactly who you are. No matter what I think of you, good or bad. No matter what anyone else thinks of you, good or bad. I might sit here and praise you for things that you have never done, or for for your honesty, and let's say you're not honest. Or I make you sound more honest. You're a very honest person, but I make you sound more honest than you really are. Am I then changing you by saying, by telling the whole world, and everyone believes me even, that's not the issue. By telling the whole world that you've never ever told a lie. Do I make it true thereby? I don't. And so really, this is fact. This is what we all have to acknowledge. This is reality. If we don't acknowledge this, we're deluded people. The words and actions and opinions and beliefs of others cannot make us worse. They cannot make us worse. And they cannot make us better. In other words, they cannot do anything to us. If they cannot do good things, if they cannot do bad things, what can they do? Nothing. They can do nothing. So you are who you are, period. And so if you yourself, when you look at yourself and you discern yourself to be out of alignment with truth, not at peace, I am angry, I am hateful, I am deceitful, I am vengeful, I pity people, I take pride in things, I'm I have ambition, I'm greedy, whatever it is. You look at yourself and you see these things, then that's how it is. Right? If that's how it is, of course, we can be deluded about ourselves as well. But let's just put that aside for a moment. If you have truly the discernment to see, what I just did was greedy. Then you know that. And nothing's going to change that for the better or worse on the outside. What you then can do if you're someone who's working on themselves, if you're someone who wants to get rid of everything that stands between you and your peace, then you will simply, logically, go and do the necessary steps to banish greed, to do it as little as possible, right? Every time a little less. I'm not saying you have to be perfect and uh people stress themselves out by saying, okay, I'm never going to do anything greedy again. That's not necessarily how that works. But if you change your intention, if you see the peril, the damage that greed causes, that pride causes, that anger, hatred, um, fear causes, if you see these things, you're naturally, no matter how long it takes, maybe it takes a second, maybe it takes 10 years, I don't know. Um, no matter how long it takes, you will naturally lose interest in these things. Naturally. And you know, you might have to do some reading, some talking to friends, some some thinking, whatever you want to do to uh drop your false beliefs, which are causing these things, right? Ultimately that goes what that's what it goes back to. So look, you just focus on yourself. Uh what's the next step? That okay. What does reason tell me? What does what does logic tell me? What does truth tell me? What does love tell me? This okay, so I will go do that. And when through this process you have become a person who is of truth, of love, of justice, always says and does the right thing, um, is of the nature of doing the right thing, it will naturally occur to you in every situation, what's the right thing to do here? Well, of course, it is to tell the truth. It is to admit this, it is to tell someone this, it is to abstain from doing this, whatever it may be. If you're in alignment with truth, truth will tell you. Oh, and then someone else uh misinterprets this or doesn't see this, or they just don't like me because of my skin color or my background or what I said ten years ago. And so they knowingly or unknowingly tell others that I'm a dishonest person, that I don't know what truth is, that I don't know what justice is, that I don't know what love is. I'm such an unloving person that I'm an unloving person. Can that make me a worse person? Does them saying that, or even believing in it fullheartedly, does that change anything about reality? Am I gonna be any more or less honest or loving or whatever it is they're saying, because they are saying it or even believing it? No. I'm gonna be exactly for better or for worse, I am exactly that what I am. No more, no less. And so do you see that even for one second, thinking or caring about other people's opinions, what they say or what they do in so-called social situations, and to become anxious from that is simply um a misalignment with with reality. It has nothing to do with truth, and there's no need for it. And so if you see this, if you truly see this, you cannot unsee it. And it might not drop from you immediately, but um like I said, you will you will gradually move towards this, not only this knowledge, because you already have the knowledge, but the belief in it. Because you see it, you cannot help but see it. This is reality. I see it now. It was my false belief, it was an illusion that was veiling it, right? I wasn't seeing, but now that that's dropped, I can see it clear as day, of course. And so focus on yourself. Don't focus on others. Um, and don't focus on others for the proof of what you did for yourself either. If you have become more honest, or if you have become less honest, like I say, don't look for the proof of that in others. Because that's only an illusion. In the truest sense, it's an image of what you truly are, it's their image of who you are, and you have your image of what they are, but you you are the only one who's with you 24-7. If you stole something, or again, if you abstained from stealing something, you witnessed it, you were there, you know it. And isn't that enough? And in fact, more than enough? Other people's uh actions, opinions, beliefs do not change reality. And they cannot, impossible, they cannot make you a better or worse person. If you see this fact that the opinions and beliefs of other people cannot make you a better or worse person, what is left of social anxiety? So-called. That's just a term, by the way. That's just another image. That's just another narrative of what what you think is going on in your life right now. Don't even call it anything. Don't even call it anything.

unknown 1:16:00

Okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

I've noticed that it's become like a narrative. Yeah. To say I have social anxiety. It's like another story.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:11

You don't have social anxiety, okay? It's called fear. And we all have it. We all have it. We are all dealing with the exact same problems. You are not special in this sense. The ego loves to believe, oh, my struggles, no one's ever experienced this before, or so few people. And so there are no resources for me. The solutions for me have not been discovered yet. They have not been developed yet. If they are, there's no book. I can't Google it, I can't find it. It's not true. It's called fear. And fear is something every single person experiences. And the solution to fear is the same. It is to drop your um wrong beliefs, misguided beliefs, false beliefs. And you do that through reason, like we're doing right now. We're looking at reality the way it is, and we're saying, I am exactly who I am. And I might not even know who I am exactly, right? That's okay. But certainly reality knows what I really am. And so my opinion, my beliefs of myself cannot change me. Other people's uh opinions and beliefs cannot change me. They cannot make me better, they cannot make me worse. And so why focus on that rather than on reality? Um, if there's something I want to work on, then I'm just gonna go and work on it. And that's what's gonna make me better or worse. Nothing else. And yeah, uh it's just when you have the narrative of I'm uh have social anxiety, and uh whenever when I see this is another narrative, whenever I get into social situations, I become anxious and I tend to say the wrong things, and people um think lesser of me. This is a narrative. And uh narratives bring what? Expectations. And so if your narrative is that every time you get into a social situation, X happens, then you expect it to happen. And guess what? Since you are in control of sort of making that happen, your expectation will realize. It will become uh real if if if it has any say in it. You know, we don't have complete control over situations, but if we expect this, you know, it if I expect to uh mispronounce a word, I probably will, because I'm gonna be, oh, the word's coming, I'm about to use it, uh uh, and you know. And so I can make that happen. Not that mispronouncing anything is anything to be ashamed of or anything wrong with. I'm just saying if that's your expectation, it will happen. Um and so let go of the narrative. You know, you you're seeing reality for what it is, I hope, right? Uh reality is, I'll say it a million times, because it's it's beautiful this to talk the truth. The opinions and beliefs of others have no effect on what you truly are. No direct effect. You can believe them and you can go make it happen, but that's you doing it, not them. See what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:48

I yeah. I've been thinking recently that um whatever happens, it's my choice whether I view it as shameful or not. So in these social situations where I often feel a lot of shame, that's actually just because I think that's what's happening is shameful. And that's something that's in my control.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:22

100%. And uh, you know, in your control, in the sense that if you are also guided by truth and love, right? You wish everyone well, you don't have hate. If you're guided by these things, you know what justice is, what doing the right thing is, what fairness is, then you're just gonna be guided by these things. It's gonna come to you. You know, you are not responsible for knowing what the right thing to do is. Justice does that. Justice determines what the right thing to do is. You so you don't have to come up with that. If you look at it, if you give yourself to it, it will tell you. And so you're not even responsible for coming up with that. And uh it is uh to the utmost pleasure of a human being to do what love says to do, what truth says to do, what justice says to do. And so you're just gonna rejoice in that which you didn't even have to come up with. You just go partake in it, you just go do it. And so just focus on reality. You know, focus on yourself. Uh, you've never been able to change anyone, make anyone better or worse with your opinions and beliefs and even your words and actions. So, how do you expect anyone else to be able to do that? It's not gonna happen. They can't make you worse. You are exactly who you are. And you can change that. I'm not saying it can't change, but again, you can change that. No one else. And so the solution uh again ultimately is the same thing. You focus on yourself, don't focus on other people. And uh anyone who, by the way, even uh judges other people, they have way bigger problems. Way bigger problems. Because, okay, you're fine, you have social anxiety, but uh for me to think anything of you for having that is my problem. Because anyone who judges anyone, anyone who pities anyone, or anyone who is proud of anyone is making judgments. So I deem you good, I deem you bad, I deem you better, I deem you worse. Who are you to do this? Are you God? Who are you to do that? Someone has a bit of a complex there, I would say. Okay. And again, that's just something I'm saying. Does that make it true? No. If I see it, if I discern it that, okay, it may or may not be that way, but what does that have to do with me? That's for them to deal with, and for them to suffer under if they don't want to deal with it. Right? So no person who is aligned with truth, who is loving, who is just, who is fair, is ever going to judge you for having social anxiety or so-called social anxiety or anything you do while you have it, whatever that may be. Um, and anyone who does judge you is not even worthy of one single thought of yours. And again, they have way bigger problems for what they're judging you for. I mean, there's so many ways to look at it, but you know, again, stay with the core of it. The core is this is reality, this is truth. Um, the beliefs and opinions of other people cannot make you better or worse. They cannot touch you. Sometimes we wish they could touch us, but they can't. Okay. And by the way, someone who says who has social anxiety and comes here and has already spoken for what, second, third, fourth time, um is actively working on himself and has nothing to worry about. Just so you know that. There are people who um so-called are are very courageous people and very so-and-so, and they're so intelligent and they're so good and all that. And when it comes time to actually say something, when it comes time to say, hey, this is me, this is what I believe. Uh, they say, no, maybe I shouldn't say, you know, keep it to myself. I'm not so sure now. Or I don't want to be challenged in my views, I don't want to be challenged in my beliefs. Um, I finally figured something out that I can be uh really sure about, and I don't want that to go away. I'm afraid that uh if someone challenged that, it might actually make sense, and then I might actually have to do some work on myself. There's so many people like that. Even here in our little community, there, I I think there are a few people, at least, who um who think this way, who don't want to be challenged in their views, even if they would benefit from it, because who doesn't benefit from truth, even when truth tells you you're actually wrong in this belief? You say, okay, great. So now I know I've just benefited, I've just been improved by being wrong, so to speak. And so you coming here and you saying these things, and um you're dealing with it. You're dealing with it. Anything you deal with is going to be dealt with. Just so you know, there's no escape from that. So there's nothing to worry about. You keep your mind on yourself, you you focus on yourself, and you don't listen to anything or anyone other than truth and love and justice, and there is nothing that can happen to you that is bad, and there is nothing that cannot happen to you that is good. Okay? Yep. All right. I appreciate you uh of course, always. And I appreciate you coming here and talking about this because uh once again, uh this is something everyone deals with, and it's called fear. And so we all have to face this in in many different areas many times, but at some point it's just not gonna rule our life anymore. It's gonna be over with. And so uh thank you very much once again. I will move you back to the audience. Uh, thank you for being here. Thank you for bringing this up. Thank you for being open and honest and saying, hey, this is me and this is what I've got going on, and I but I'm not gonna let it rule me anymore. I'm gonna do something about this, right? And that's what you're doing. And uh we we have one more caller, but I'm a bit out of time. And I still owe you uh a new question of the fortnight. And so though so the one speaker that is still here, uh please put your request to speak in first thing next time, okay, so that I can also talk to you the first thing next time. And uh I apologize, but I think there is some merit in not having these meetings and and therefore the recordings also be too long. And um I will now go on to give us the next new question of the Fortnite. And The new question is this. It takes effort to become and to remain disturbed. What is the opposite of effort and disturbance? It takes effort to become and remain disturbed. What is the opposite of effort and disturbance? That's a new question. And I'm telling you, it's an amazing, very thought-provoking, and I think a very expansive question. And I take no credit for it because it came to me, as they say. So I didn't make it. It came to me. And I think it will be quite interesting to talk about and to live in for a little bit, right? That's the that that's the true value of these things. And so I will post a question and the question of the Fortnite uh text channel as well, where you are always welcome to give your answer to the current or any other past question of the Fortnite. Those those threads are still active. You can go weeks back all the way to the first question and answer that. And someone else will see that and maybe they'll say, or whatever. It's all active, it's all alive. No question, just because we're not dealing with it right now, loses its relevancy. These questions are selected in a way where we could just ask one of them for the rest of our lives, and we would keep learning from it. And so it's our privilege that we that we keep talking about new ones, but that doesn't mean that there are any old ones. And so I encourage you to always make use of everything that's here. All the questions of the Fortnite, past and present ones, the book club, the Seneca Letters channel, where you can put your journal entry in and read the ones of others. I always post mine first thing every week. And of course, everything else that we've got going on here. So once again, I thank you very much. And I will see you in one short week, and we will discuss our current question of the fortnight. And until then, don't forget what love is not. Don't forget what truth is not. And always remain aligned with reality, with what's really happening. And don't be so much in your head. Don't give any tolerance to imagination, to speculation, and to illusion, and certainly not to anger and hate and fear.