All your wrongs have been wiped away

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

I thank you once again for being here. When instead of being here, you could have spent your time thinking that you are a sinner and that peace will be denied to you. You could have engaged in what ifs and hypotheticals and uh gossip and feeling that you are incomplete and in planning and scheming of how to become complete and that this is a cruel, unfair world. But instead of doing all of that, you came here to be reminded of truth and to not let go of this, to not give in to illusion, to not give in to fear, and to say I know now more and more every day, and I'm committed to finding out more and more of what I am not. And the more I find out what I am not, the more all those so-called vices and sins and mistakes and regrets and shame just naturally falls off of me. I don't have to do anything, in fact, I have to do less.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

So there's two monks walking in the forest, and they come across a river, and uh also with a woman that also wants to pass, but it's a great current, and she uh can go through. So the two monks um they vow that they never touch a woman for whatever reason, but uh the woman asks for help. So the older monk uh goes and grabs her and takes her along the uh river. And uh after that and they let her go, and so the younger monk uh go gets really angry and gets upset, and for hours and hours he keeps, you know, he gets really angry over time. And uh a few hours later he says to the older monk that how dare you touch a woman without to never uh touch someone else like that, or a woman, you know. And uh the older monk says to him, uh I have let go of that woman many hours ago, but you are still carrying her in your mind. So you know, I think that that story is really about like how how we hold on to things even though they have long gone uh in our minds, even if it didn't happen to us, it happened to someone else.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

You know, that that story, now that I hear it again, I had heard it before, but now that I hear it again, it really also, in addition to what you just said, it also speaks to me to the fact of how those people who are most religious, who are, whether it's through philosophy or through religion or to whatever, hold virtues in the highest regard, and they say, I am uh completely devoted to the virtues. I will never lie, I will never cheat, I will never lust again, I will never be jealous, envious, um, vengeful, anything like that. And they put that in the in their highest mission, so to speak. And so whether it's again because of religion to appease God or it's through philosophy to make oneself better, right? In fact, the best one can be, they hold true to those virtues. And of course the virtues are a good thing. Of course they are uh high. But what happens when we identify as the virtuous person, when we identify as the person who is working on themselves and who holds themselves to the highest standard, when we identify with the virtues, even they become a reason for us to become misaligned with the virtues. In other words, when I identify with the virtues as a virtuous person, I'm such an honest person, right? Every person that I see who is not honest, who I objectively see as a liar, you know, I just caught them lying or stealing or cheating or any of the virtues that I hold so dearly, what happens within me? I become judgmental. I say the virtues are of the highest order, honesty, among other things, are of the highest order, and I just saw this person lying. That means they are low. That means they're no good, they are not virtuous, they're not working on themselves, they are not holding themselves to a high standard, and I make all these judgments. And the irony of the matter is to be a judgmental person is not virtuous. The judgmental person is a resentful person. The judgmental person is also an envious person because there's always someone who's more virtuous than oneself. And the judgmental person is also necessarily uh an angry person because they see all these wrongdoings, all these vices, all these unvirtuous people around them. In fact, they govern the world, they rule the world, they go into the highest positions. How can this be? This is so unfair. And so we devote ourselves to the virtues to become a good person, and it makes us a bad person because we become angry, resentful, uh judgmental, um, envious, and we become hateful. And a person who is angry is a person who is not at peace. And after all, you want to become a good person to be at peace, right? Even people who don't do it through the virtues. Some people say, no, it's not the virtues, it's it's money, it's wealth, it's fame. All those people are only pursuing wealth and fame or whatever else they pursue to get to peace at the end, right? Everyone is striving, everyone is working on themselves, on their career, on their spirituality, on their this, or on their religion, on their connection with God, their relationship with whatever it is, only for the end result to be peace. Yet their pursuit of virtue, just like the monk story, leads the younger monk to be disappointed, to be judgmental, to be angered, to be resentful, to not at all have peace because the thoughts are going, we're supposed to be virtuous, we vow to do this, and now my master, the older person that the person that I look up to, the person who's supposed to teach me, is engaging in the exact opposite behavior that we vow to ourselves, our religion, our God. That's what that story is pointing out to me now, also. And the older monk. Yeah, yeah. You I I think you you knew what you were doing there. Um, and the older monk is pointing out, you know, I saw a human being who needed help. And I made sure he's not saying this, but I I I think if I understand the story, this is the mindset. Uh he said, Um, I will not let the virtues become an impediment to me doing the right thing, to me practicing justice and um to help others and to and to uh become a free person. Because if I had passed that woman, I would have said, well, that that was a person uh in need of help, and I refused help to a fellow human being because of my virtues, that's a conflict. That's a conflict. And the older monk didn't have let that happen. I'm sure, however, that he made sure that in himself he did not have lust, he did not um touch the woman in order to uh get that thrill in order to engage in vice. He said, okay, this is going to be a challenge. This might be difficult, but I will make sure in myself that my intention is right. I am not touching the woman to touch the woman. I am doing it to help a fellow human being. I'm sure he would have done the same thing if it was a man, a child, and perhaps even an animal. And so this is how virtue can become an impediment to us. Of course, it's not virtue itself that becomes an impediment. That I also want to make that very clear. It's not virtue itself, it's our identification with virtue. The virtues are there to help guide you through every situation in your life. They are not the God you worship, they are not the highest good itself. They are the bridge, the ladder, whatever you want to call it, to peace. And so we must not, just like with any other identity that stands in our way, there are higher identities and there are lower identities, yes, but identity is identity and it works the same way and it destroys the same way, and it's an impediment in the just the same way. That identity of us being a virtuous person, of us working in ourselves, that identity of being uh an explorer and the one who betters oneself is an identity that helped, very much so helped, transcend the lower identities. Right? The identity of uh needing to be the most successful person at the workplace, uh the most successful person in the family, the the kindest, most helpful, most good hearted, most caring person in the family or among the friends circle. It helped transcend all those smaller identities which keep people trapped. But there comes a point where that identity too must be laid aside. Otherwise it will become an impediment.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, yeah. It's uh it's uh it has many uh meanings. I think you describe them all pretty pretty well. Um the main reason I brought it is the younger monk who is disturbed uh by the events that occurred. And you know, that's the thing that's uh and I see it in myself as well that when something happens in my life, um, you know, one day and then weeks later I still think about them all the time. And it's it it brings guilt and um and what makes you think about it? Um probably I'm replaying the uh the event in my head over and over again. And what I could have done different in that situation. I could have said this, I could have done that.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

And and who is the one who is um making you think about that and putting such importance on that event, what it means, what it could have meant, what it why it happened, why it should have happened, and what could have come out of it. Who is the person that is thinking about all this and who is obsessing over this?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Um I I guess it it has to be the ego who who wanted to be who wants to be right, you know, he who wants to do uh who wants justice, but it's not for the sake of justice, it's for the sake of himself, you know. So that he doesn't he's so that he doesn't become a loser.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Because losing is not fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Losing is not virtuous, right? Not being wise is a failure. Um not acting correctly, not knowing what to do in every situation morally and ethically is a failure to this person. And when I say person, I don't mean the true you, of course. Uh a person is a persona. Person comes from the word persona, and persona uh I think comes from the Greek word that has something to do with mask. A persona is a mask, an identity. And you're absolutely right. There is that identity within uh, I would say everyone who is working on themselves is saying, I want to better myself, right? And in whatever way. There's so many people who also have lost hope and who are not trying, uh, and that too is an identity. But I think everyone who is on that so-called path towards peace and love and virtue has that identity or has had that identity at some point, where they're judging themselves and they're measuring themselves and they're examining, testing themselves by the situations and how they acted in them. And of course, there needs to be a part of us that says that knows right from wrong, that says what you just did was wrong. Or what you just thought even to do, you haven't done it yet, but the intention in you is wrong. Of course. But the narrative of what that means and where it puts you on the value scale, and what you could have done differently, what you should have done differently, and the shame and regret that comes out of that, or vice versa, also, oh, I acted 100% correctly in that situation, the pride that comes out of that is not you. It's the identity that needs to be right all the time, and when it's not, it it feels ashamed and it gets angry and resentful at itself, which is not possible, by the way. Whenever we say I was blah blah blah at myself, it's identity talking because there aren't more than one person in you, you are one individual. How can you hate yourself? Who is hating whom? How can you be proud of yourself? Who is proud of whom? How are there two people inside of you? And there truly are two people inside of you because of the identity. There's the real you and then the not you, the the self and the false self. So it's the false self who is ever disappointed, angry, proud, uh afraid of the true self. But is it the true self that's ever disappointed, or is it always the false self?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Um I I don't see how the true self can be disappointed in anything, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yet we keep thinking about events for weeks and months and years perhaps, in a way that we are disappointed in ourselves, in a way that we are ashamed of ourselves, in a way that we are proud of ourselves, in a way that we are we feel that we missed an opportunity there. All these things, if we know that the true self does not even know about disappointment, right? The concept of disappointment, the concept of shame and regret, uh does not exist for the true self. It literally does not know what it is. It's like going up to God and saying, Do you ever get disappointed in yourself? It'd be the silliest question if if God would speak like that. Uh God would not understand the question. And that's more of a knowing than to know what shame is, if you notice. We think we're so intellectual and we're so smart, and we have all these concepts of shame and guilt and disappointment and pride and success and failure. And the true self doesn't know about these things, and the ego will take that as reason to confirm itself. It will say, I know more. I have more concepts, I have more ideas. My arguments are more complicated, they're more varied, they're more deep. And so it seems like uh-huh, the ego knows better. The ego knows more, it has more knowledge. And so, of course, I'm I I am a seeker of knowledge, a seeker of wisdom, and knowledge and wisdom gets always confused, right? And so we look for more and more and more. Who can tell us more? Who can tell us more how we're wrong? And that's where attraction comes from, with all those so-called philosophers who uh always tell us that we're wrong in doing something, but never say how to do it better. They're very good at criticizing, they're very good at finding faults, so to speak, but they never replace it with anything. And they say, war is wrong, uh eating animals is wrong, and uh you know, judging is wrong, and and thinking you're superior is wrong, and being such a virtuous person is just an illusion and all these things. And and you say, Okay, so what is reality? What is truth? And they're silent. And that's exactly how the ego operates because those people operate out of ego. And so it's the nature of the ego to criticize, to to uh hurl shame, regret, anger, resentment, disappointment at others, including a true self, but never ever know a better way. Never ever present a true solution, never ever present something that just works right here, right now, not in the future. Not a promise, not a carrot, um, not a hope, but something that works right now and doesn't require the help of anyone else, it doesn't require time, it doesn't require studying, it doesn't require exercise, it doesn't require um loyalty, it requires nothing other than dedication, and as soon as you dedicate yourself, you have it right here, right now. The ego never ever presents anything like that. It's always thinking about the past and thinking about the future, what could have been, what should be, but never about right now. Isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

So are you gonna continue to let that happen or or do you see through the trick of the ego?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Well uh these thoughts just appear out of nothing, you know, sometimes. I'm just um when I'm washing the dishes or taking a straw.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Are you are you responsible for your thoughts? Well it's a genuine question. Well no how do you feel? Do you feel responsible for your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Uh some of them. Some of them, I think. I think if if those thoughts are about, you know if I uh entertain a thought, then yes. So to speak. So if I keep thinking about it, then I'm then responsible.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

But you are not just responsible for the visitor, right? You're not responsible for who knocks at your door. You're responsible for letting them in or not.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, because you know, if uh thought appears and then I just notice it, yeah, okay, this is here now. Um come in, but uh you are welcome to leave anytime. So this is how I try to figure it out now to you know if I have a certain thought that uh I do not welcome, I cannot, you know, kick him out or eat out. So well, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

You cannot let it in though. What you can do is uh instead of hearing the knock at the door and immediately going to the door and opening the door to see who it is, you can look through the through the peephole. And you can see you can see, ah, who is it? I don't want this, I don't want this person, I don't want this visitor. So I'm not gonna open the door. So, in real terms, uh what that means is you can observe a thought. You can observe it. It's coming, it's gonna come, it's not in your control, as you already noticed, right? And it's saying, Wow, that thing you did eight months ago. Do you want to talk about that? And then you say, not no, not yes, you just don't talk about it. You don't talk to it. Don't communicate with that thought. As soon as you communicate with it, even if it is to say no, go away, you are communicating with it, right? You're feeding it. All you need to do really is see who it is and observe it. And it's coming. And okay, it might stay for a while and then it will leave. But it never touched you and you never communicated with it. In other words, you never took responsibility. Because you didn't have to. It's something that we do. We say, okay, this person has come to my door, this visitor's come to my door. I guess I need to feed them. I guess I need to clothe them. I guess I need to have a conversation with them. I guess I need to figure out its problems and listen to all its worries and anxieties and all its regrets and then try to help them. No, you don't have to do any of that. You are not responsible for this visitor. Coming and going and what they say to you and what they want from you, you are not responsible. And you can engage with it if you want to, because there are good visitors. There are good visitors, right? Um, when when a thought comes to you, wow, I could use the resources that I have in this and this and way, and it wouldn't even take too long, and I could really, really help this person out. I could carry that woman across the river. That's a thought. And then you can say, okay, uh, the true self within me, that which is guided by reason, that which is guided by justice and love and truth, recognizes this as a proper visitor. And so I will let that in. What's wrong with that? But I'm still not responsible of that thought coming, even if it's a so-called a proper thought, a logistical thought, a neutral thought, has nothing to do with emotion. I'm not responsible for its arrival either. I'm only responsible for the door. I'm the gatekeeper, so to speak. And so why not next time the thought comes in, hey, let's talk about this thing you did eight months ago, and I'm gonna talk about it negatively. You can already tell from the from the way that the that this visitor is phrasing the question, right? Why not say who's speaking? You know, ask the visitor, identify yourself. And when you ask yourself, who is speaking right now? Not literally out of your mouth necessarily, but in in your mind. When when that voice comes, that thought comes, that idea comes, whatever it is, that emotion comes, who's speaking right now? Is it me? Or is it the person of me, the persona, the identity, the false self? And look, just I mean, try it out. I'm not telling you what it's like, and maybe you will let us know, and maybe you're already doing this. When you simply ask yourself that question, you become aware of the separation, of the fact that you are not the visitor. And you become aware of the fact that you have no responsibility to anyone other than yourself. And that true self doesn't even look for you to be responsible for anything, by the way. To it doesn't give you approval or disapproval, it doesn't do any of that, right? It doesn't judge. So why not just become aware of that and to simply choose not to engage, to not open the door, and to open the door only to visitors who have something to offer who you've identified as who's speaking? Justice. Okay, come in. I'm uh my door is always open to justice. But my door is never ever open to emotion. It's never ever open to anger, hatred, resentment, jealousy, envy. It's never ever open to any of these and more. Ambition, greed, now with that awareness, how can anything ever happen to you?

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I'm I mean, yeah, I mean, my true self doesn't bother me ever.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Right. Because you are the true self, as we have been discussing uh last week and are continuing to discuss because it's totally related to the question of the fortnight. Peace is your natural condition. When you give up effort, when you stop striving, when you stop toiling, what do you fall back into effortlessly? Like when you stop, when you relax, what is the chair that you're relaxing into? It's called peace. Right? Otherwise, the disturbance, the effort would be effortless. When you relax, what do you relax into? When you stop hating, when you stop fighting someone or something, what do you come back to? Peace. Stillness, effortless tranquility. It's effortless. Does it take effort to be at peace? Not to get to peace. Everyone is everyone is striving and and exerting effort to get to peace, but those who truly are at peace, who are still and comfortable and and um are not exerting any kind of striving, ambition, effort towards something, but feel that they already have it. What effort do they expend? Nothing. And so that's why your true self does not require you to go and get something, you to go and prove something to someone or to yourself, to it, to truth, to justice, to love, to defend it, to attack something. It doesn't require anything of you. Because it is at rest, it is still, it is a true you. It it cannot be separate, it cannot abandon you, it cannot approve you, it cannot make you higher or lower. It's just it it's you. It takes no effort for you to be you. It takes no effort for someone whose nature is peace to be at peace. Naturally. You know, we we look at we look at how effortlessly birds seem to fly. Sometimes they don't even flop their wings at all and they're just flying. Uh and that's because it's it's the nature of a bird to fly. It is uh it is very comfortable to it. However, even a bird gets tired from flying at some point. But a human being never, ever gets tired of peace. And uh see, these are the distinctions. Every time a disturbance comes, every time a thought comes that is from the ego, from the false self, is pointing itself out to you, right? Is it it should every time disturbance comes, it's pointing out the still on the other hand. The peace. It's pointing it out. And so the more you see the difference, the more you jump back and forth. And it's okay to jump back and forth. Whenever you become unaware, realize, naturally, you will realize I've become unaware. You realizing that is coming back to awareness. And if you have to do that a thousand times a day, just do that. Because the more you do it, the the less you need to do it, because the more it's pointing at, it's pointed out to you, the more obvious it becomes what unawareness is, how one falls into it, and how what to do to not fall into it. It's it's pointed out, it becomes clearer and clearer and clearer each time. And uh it is disturbance, it is unawareness, it is the ego that asks for effort. And so to be to remain away from the ego and away from disturbance is actually an effortless thing to do. It we just need to drop those false beliefs that are coming from every angle at us to tell us that to become to be for peace and truth and justice, we must fight. We must fight for it, and we must fight against things. And if we ever uh overcome those enemies, if you ever if we ever defeat them, then we can be at peace. And that makes sense to us, right? There's a problem, it needs to be solved, okay, and then when it's solved, everything's gonna be okay. But that's not how peace operates. The problem we're trying to solve is taking place on the ground of peace. Without that ground, everything will fall, everything would fall into a void. And so you don't have to engage with the disturbances and the things that happen using the ground of peace. You just sit on the ground of peace. It's already what is giving you a foothold. It is already that which is holding you up and everything up, and so we just need to relax into it. It's not a reward to be gained. All our striving, all our ambition takes place on top of the ground of peace. But we don't look at the ground, we always look up what can I have. So I think the more you practice this, you're gonna see that. I mean, you're already seeing it. I don't even want to tell you that you are you that you don't have something that you want to have. You already have everything. That's sort of my point. But um just work on that. Just work on being the being the person who opens the door or does not open the door. And everything that comes to your door is necessarily not you. You are in the room of peace, everything is quiet, everything is just right, there's nothing wrong, there's no one trying to break in. That's you. And uh everything, so-called good or bad, that comes to you, that happens to you is a visitor at the door. And they cannot come in if you don't let them in, if you do not open the door. That's the one thing, the one thing they cannot do. They can convince you to open the door, they can, once they're in, they can totally take over, but that's the one thing they need you to do is to open the door for them. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah, of course, yes. Uh I'll try next time and uh and then and the next. Okay. Keep on trying.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah, and that's what it's all about, right? There's no such thing as a failure. You know, if if it happens again, you fall into unawareness, you let you let a visitor in that you really don't want to have let in. Um it's not a failure. It's not a failure. It just becomes more obvious. Uh-huh, this is what happens when I let the wrong visitor in. I see now. I just didn't know that before. Now I see it, now I know it. Okay, next time I won't let this person in. And if I do again, then that means it would it still wasn't clear enough to me, I guess. Right? And so there will be at some point where you say, okay, this time I can see it before it's happening, and I'm just not gonna let this visitor in. And so that's that's really all that we have to work on. We don't need anything else. We already are the room, we are the person who opens the door or does not open the door. And all we need to learn is our lack of responsibility. Not more stuff, but to let go of things, to let go of that so-called duty of having to deal with every single visitor that comes to the door. But anyway, uh, I think you had a second story.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Um, I want to let other people uh speak too, but I can share it if you can.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, no, that's okay. That's totally fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Um okay, I'll I will be brief. Um so it's very similar. Um it's also a monk again, probably. I don't remember where this is from. And he comes by a lake every day, and it's a big lake, so there's like two boats uh next to the uh the shore. So he grabs one boat and goes out in the middle because there is no disturbance there, right? So nothing can bother him. That's why he also goes out with the boat. And he closes his eyes and he starts meditating. And shortly after he knows who notices that an another boat has struck uh the his boat. Um, you know, and he doesn't open his eyes, he tries to um keep meditating, he thinks someone mistakenly hit him. So but then after a while it happens again and ten minutes later again and this happens like two more times, and then he come becomes very angry and shouts at at uh the direction of the strike. And he realizes that there was no one in the boat, it was just the current that was hitting the boat. And then he becomes uh disappointed in himself because he was angry at nobody, he was angry at himself, all he had to do was just to look. So that's that's the second story.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Isn't that amazing? And uh to me that story also shows how you know the thing is, and and this is what I have to thank uh Socrates for, he really shows you that even if there was a person sitting in the boat, it would have been an empty boat. Because uh a person who so-called on purpose would hit another person with a boat just because they don't care or whatever, it's easier. Uh I'll bump off of this guy and just keep going or whatever. That's called ignorance. And an ignorant person who doesn't know right from wrong, true from false, um kindness, kindness from from rudeness and all these things, respect from disrespect, that person is an emptiness. Ignorance is an unawareness, it's a not knowing, it's a not understanding. So even, you know, we get agitated with people who say, well, clearly they have sense perceptions, clearly they can see that the boat is willing to strike. Yes, but those sense perceptions are not going anywhere. That the vision of the collision, the the sights and the sound and the smells and everything are going to ignorance, they're not going to awareness. And so, truly, even if there's a person sitting on that boat and they're laughing and smiling at doing what they're doing, in actuality, they actually don't know on a higher level what they are doing and why they're doing it. They're confused, they're ignorant, they're misguided. And truly, in the truest sense, they do not know what they're doing. It's like Jesus said, forgive them, for they do not know what they do. Yes, there is a person, yes, their sense perceptions are working, they're not passed out, they're not in a coma, they're not sleeping, but truly they do not know what they're doing. And this is what we need to remind ourselves with every disturbance that uh so-called another person causes or an event in our life causes. It is always an empty boat. Right? That's what I get from that story, which uh I think is quite a beautiful story as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah. I'm grateful to share it, and thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for those stories, and thank you for uh everything you brought here. And uh this is a very valuable addition to the question of the Fortnite as an answer. You're absolutely right. I think those stories ultimately go back to disturbance, which is the opposite of peace, and they go back to effort, which is the opposite of effortlessness, and that effort in our minds, and thinking is the ultimate effort, if you think about it, right? Always when we're thinking, that's the ultimate effort. Even if your body is at rest, even if you're not doing anything, you're just sitting and you're thinking and overthinking, you get exhausted and you're disturbed and you're not at peace, and you could be in the most comfortable environment, you would feel like you're being tormented. And so that's what those stories really point out. And I see them shared a lot, and I don't think anyone ever talks about uh what seems to me now to be the true meaning after sort of understanding these these uh concepts of what peace truly is and what the opposite of effort truly is. So really thank you a lot. That that was amazing, and I Yeah, thank you too. Yeah, and I will move you back to the audience. That was very valuable. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I really appreciated that. And I and like I said, we hear those stories a lot, and I hope now it makes us think of something a little bit more than they used to. It that it they do for me now, anyway. And I will invite our next speaker.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Hi Atash.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Uh, hope you're well. Hello, hi, yes.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Yeah, so um so yeah, just to forewarn, this is not really a very well-considered thought, but I just wanted to like air it out loud, like you know, um, and to kind of yeah, like I say, it's not very well considered. I'm not too sure if I'm probing if there's even something coherent to my thoughts. I I kind of wanted to say it out loud and kind of see what you think about it. So I've been thinking on the nature of our innocence and its relationship with helplessness, and I've kind of been thinking around it in the sense that often in you know, our discussions here in the true nature of ourselves and our true self, you know, we often think about well, what about sin? What about guilt? And this need to be self-reliant as well. And so I was thinking kind of the opposites of these, you know, the you know, if you know, you know, again, I'm not from a religious background, I don't know much about original sin, but I really struggle to understand this idea that we're born into sin. It feels it feels to me that we're born into innocence, right? And we have this loss of innocence, and it seems to me that there's a coincidence with our status, you know, our declared state of innocence and what we need in terms of help of others, and so it feels to me like if we have this loss of innocence, it coincides with the need to be self-reliant. And um, like I said, I'm kind of intrigued around it because you know, for myself, my own personal journey, and in terms of my own you know, biography of this, you know, I definitely have this sense of always feeling like I'm in trouble, like I've done wrong. And I also very much struggle with asking for help from others. I always seem to put barriers in the way of asking for help. So it's led to me to think, is there something at you know, is there some sort of root cause at play with both of these um kind of um thoughts or you know um states of being? And yeah, I can say with and when it comes to innocence, it's it's interesting in that you know, we we with you know we will assume a child to be mostly innocent. You know, we can even put a you know, a child can commit quite an egregious crime, and you know, of course, the judicial the judicial system has this assumed innocence, but even when they're found guilty, that innocence remains, right? There's something about that status of a child that always you know that they seem to be quite impermeable to that status of innocence. But then something happens, right? Culturally, we've organized at some sort of threshold once beyond some point you have this loss of innocence, right? Your experience has kind of taken over. And it seems to coincide, right, with the age at which you can join the army or drive or have sex, there's something about it, you know, this idea that we have this loss of innocence. And so I've been wondering how much of our spiritual journey is actually rediscovering that we're always innocent, you know, that our true nature is actually we do have this innocence. And how do you then, if that is true, how do you reconcile that then with helplessness? You know, is is there also a false declaration in this need to be self-reliant? Like can you be overly self-reliant? Is that actually a you know this true nature of innocence that you do need to depend on others to some degree, not for your happiness, not for your joy, but you know, we live in a world of others, and you know there you inevitably we need to rely on people to put, you know, you know, we don't grow our own food, for example, right? We need to you know rely on people to some degree. Uh and yes, it's just that's kind of what my thoughts are at the moment. Like, what's this relationship between our true nature of innocence and the need to rely on others?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah, I think it's a great question, and and uh I I do think it at least points to the heart of everything. I think this is uh In a way, the question, if not itself, it is the question that leads to all questions, and it is the question that leads to all answers. I always say, you know, I want to, there are multiple things in there, and I want to start at the lowest point, so to speak, out of which everything comes, though, um, in terms of our false beliefs. This idea of original sin. It's not only a Christian thing, although it is, uh I think predominantly, and I don't even want to say it's a Christian thing, because uh originally it did not exist. I don't think um it comes from even before Jesus. So in a sense, it comes from from from the Old Testament, right? That you are born in a state that you need to be saved from. And Jesus, of course, that's why he's called the savior, because he's the one who came and uh showed that everyone is saved already. There is no such thing as being born that way. So people always, you know, everything in the Bible is taken literally by by so many people, right? So they say that Jesus came and died for our sins, right? That's that somehow Jesus was the sacrifice by God, the Lamb of God, right? And that his death is what saved us from sin. It is not so. It's his life saved us from sin by his teaching of saying you never had sin. You were created in the image of God. And I am your brother, we are all brothers and sisters. And so image means what? Image means likeness, and of course, not a physical likeness. Again, everyone taking that literally. Likeness in spirit, likeness in nature, meaning you were created in the essence, the spirit of God. You and God share the same spirit, the same nature, the same essence. And that nature is what? That nature is awareness. That nature is reason. And reason, when I when I say reason, I don't mean logical. I mean that which looks at truth, that which knows truth, and that which is guided towards truth by it. That's reason. And to discern, and the Bible also says a lot about discernment versus judgment. Discerman is to know right from wrong. And so that it is that nature, it is that essence which enables us to know, to find, and to remain with truth. That's the essence of God. And it's, of course, the awareness in the first place. God is awareness. Without the current running through you, the electricity, the whatever you want to call it, there is no perceiving, there is no being, there is no doing, there's nothing. Everything comes out of awareness. Everything comes out of the fundamental ground of being. Just like all trees, all flowers come out of the ground. They don't come out of uh rock and and wood and tables and things we've construct. They come out of the ground of being. And so everything we do, everything we, every existence comes out of the ground of being. It's almost like awareness is squeezed through different shapes of being, right? One's a bird, one's a fish, one's a flower, one's a human. But it's all comes out of the same ground of being. It all takes its existence from capital A awareness. I always say we are each one of us isn't an instance of awareness. We are the small A awareness that is an instance of the capital A awareness. It's sort of like a raindrop is an instance of rain. It's an instance of water. It is not partial, it is not incomplete, it is fully water. There's nothing about a raindrop that is different than the entire lake or all the whole rain. But it isn't, it is not all of it. It is an instance of it, meaning in in itself, in its nature, in its essence, it has the full and complete nature of water, but it is not all of water. And so, in that sense, I say we are the raindrops, we are instances of awareness. And this is what Jesus said in so many ways. He said, He said, Um, I will speak in parables and I will reveal what has been hidden since the foundation of the world. And this is what he revealed. And this is why uh so many people also, once again, mistakenly think of him as God, because uh in a sense, he did think he was God, because everything is God, every human is God, every every piece of anything, every atom is God, the whole universe is God, and then some perhaps. But so, in that sense, he was God, in that sense, he told everyone else that they were God. When he said uh when he thought of himself as God and everyone else as his brothers and sisters, you can infer what that means. He revealed that we are all instances of awareness, and we're all brothers and sisters in that, and uh there in that essence that of which we are an instance of, where's the sin in that? How can any instance of God be sinful? Every single wrongdoing of yours comes from identity, every single wrongdoing of yours, so-called, comes from that awareness, which is entirely pure and perfect and all that. Identifying with something and putting some sort of meaning to it. And the person it creates, the identity it creates, the ego, which is just unawareness, right? If we're an instance of awareness, the ego is the unawareness. It's it's the it's the uh lack of awareness. Uh it's the absence of awareness, is all that ego is, it doesn't have its own existence. It's the shadow of what it's it lives in the shadow of what casts the shadow. And so when we slip into that unawareness and we think we are something that we are not, that and only that is when we think we are sinful. Whenever we say um I have lied, the awareness didn't lie. The person, the identity, uh the husband, the father, the the boss, the the cook, the the pilot, the daughter, the son, whatever the identity is, that lied. And so we we don't see that, we don't look at ourselves, we look at our actions, we look at things that happen to us, and we construct an identity out of that. And then we create this persona, literally like out of clay, right? And we shape it a certain way, and it rains on it, and things happen to it, and things fall off of it, and so we think we are harmed. We put it back together, we put more than there was before, so now we think we are better. And we're doing all of this all day long, and we think that someone else's approval of the shape we've made makes the shape better. That means uh-huh we're going in the right direction. People disapprove of it, we think we're going in the wrong direction. And that's that's the difference between discernment and judgment, by the way. When people hold themselves or other people accountable in terms of their worth and their value and their purity, to made up human profane standards, as a result of which they become angry with those people, and the people they become angry with become ashamed and lesser and sinners, that's judgment. But the awareness, the pure, the essence of God, the spirit of which every every individual carries, when that spirit discerns truth from falsity, that's discernment. And how you can know experientially, every single time, without a doubt, if something is a discernment or a judgment, is whether there's emotion involved or not. Whenever you are seeing something, this is wrong. If anger comes with it, if resentment comes with it, or pride and ecstasy, whatever it is, comes with it, it is a judgment because it is motivated by a false belief that is giving a thrill. Anger is a thrill. It is a thrill to that which is not awareness because awareness doesn't have a thrill. It's steady being, it is the ground of being. It cannot help but exist. It cannot be better, it cannot be worse, it cannot be touched. That which rides the roller coaster, that which can become better and become worse and become better again, is not that. It's the absence of it. And that absence feels like it has its own existence. It feels better about itself and worse about itself and goes up and down. But that's the one making the judgment. It is the false self making the judgment. The judgment does not come out of awareness. Awareness does not know what judgment. Awareness is not no sin. Awareness has never made a saint out of someone.

SPEAKER_04 54:58

Awareness is asked a question on that. Yeah. Can you have convictions to your discernment? Because for me, conviction, you know, if you if you really feel like you're in hold of truth, there should be a conviction around it. But then for me, convictions sometimes feel like they're very much of emotion. There's something fixed about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Um, you know, uh, I wouldn't say that there can't be truth and emotion, but the point is that if you strip it of emotion, or rather you just you just see the emotion and say, hey, if emotion wasn't there, would I still be convinced to do this? Would I still have the conviction to do it? And if I wouldn't, then I can be 100% sure that it's out of unawareness, it's a thrill-seeking, it's it has no substance to it, and it is not discernment. But if I take away the, let's say, the resentment that there is, or the pride that there is, and I discern there's still reason to do this, there's still reason to walk this path, and there's still reason to even die for this, then it must be motivated fundamentally by reason. And uh, but so many times in our lives, if not most of the time, whenever we make a judgment, whenever we call someone a sinner, uh we say, Oh, this is a promiscuous person, and and they've had uh they've been with so many people, and and that makes them worse. They're worthless. They're I mean, they're filthy, whatever people say, right, who judge other people like that. Take the emotion away from it. What's left? At most, it would be okay, that's not how I want to live. That's not how I want to live. But what business of mine is to even look at that, to even look at another person and to and to judge what is good or bad for them. At most, that's what would be left. And even that's not enough to judge someone. That's reason, more than reason enough to stop judging someone, to never look at anyone like that again, and to look it for yourself. If that's how you don't want to live, then don't live like that. It has nothing to do with anyone else. And it doesn't make oneself a sinner either, because we are not our bodies. That's one of the false associations, identifications we this this unawareness makes. Right? Awareness is sort of tricked into, if you will, lied into, and that's why Satan is the great deceiver. It's nothing other than ego, right? The great deceiver is the ego. Uh awareness is told to this is you. And uh everything that can harm the body harms you, and everything that's good for the body is good for you. And so reputation becomes something that is important to us because it can very much change the circumstances of the body, of the physical being. But we forget that no matter how well, quote unquote, or how poorly, so to speak, the body is treated, the physical circumstances become the non-physical, the spirit, the essence, that which without which everything else is impossible, is not touched by any of that. The awareness, the essence is not touched by that. And everything comes out of awareness. You could not use your body, you could not have any sense perceptions. Where do they go to? Every action, every thought takes place within awareness. Every opinion, every belief is in the space, in the in the valley of awareness. Without that, without that space, that place, nothing can take place. Awareness is where everything takes place. Without awareness, nothing happens. Nothing. Again, on an individual level, since we're an instance of awareness, that instance cannot do any of those things. But generally speaking, without capital A awareness, without the awareness out of which all instances of awareness come, without that, nothing happens on earth in the universe. Nothing, physical or non-physical. And so when you identify, and you being that nature, that essence, that awareness, identify with anything other than that, that's when sin even becomes possible. Before that, in the essence, in that complete perfection that needs nothing else, that does everything but needs nothing, in that, sin is not even a possibility. Sin comes in with anything after that. And uh the sinner identifies with sin. The sinner identifies with the sinner. Even the sinner, if you notice, is a persona, is an identity that is not possible without awareness. It's not possible, it does not exist outside of it, or without it, rather. And so everyone who calls themselves a sinner is identified with something that they are not. And everyone who calls other people a sinner is like what we talked about before. They identify with the virtues, with with the opposite of sin, with being godly, with with uh being more like Christ and less like those people. They're making judgments, they're making separations, they're making value statements, they're ranking worth as if all is not one. They're making a multiplicity out of singularity and then ranking that multiple that false multiplicity among it's it's a complete delusion. It does not exist in awareness. There's a singularity. And it's an illusion, a delusion to think that the singularity can be made into separate parts that have nothing to do with each other, and then they can be ranked, and there's a better and a worse, and a good and a bad. And that one, that one can just fall into these things, also. These are all these are all stories and narratives and expectations and concepts developed with the awareness, but out of the nature of awareness. They have nothing to do with awareness. And uh, I know this is you know, this could be seen as opinion and belief, but this is how I look at it, and this is what I see uh in the teaching. I keep talking about Jesus, but it's not just Jesus. I mean, Buddha is saying even more so the same thing. Um again, from the East, so to speak, we hear this much more, although the ancient Greeks talked about this too. Plotinus, right? Uh, the person due to whom there is now such a school of thought called Neoplatonism. Plotinus talked about the singularity all the time, uh, was a non-dualist himself. And um, and this is a person before Jesus, Plato, especially. These are Socrates, these are people before Jesus, and the traditions of the East, the so-called uh the Buddhism and the Hinduism, and all these uh Vedic texts that talk about the singularity, the non-dualism, everything is God, right? God isn't everything, everything is an instance of God. All these people are before Jesus, and so Jesus uh must have learned this, must have known this, and this is his message. This is this is him bringing that message into his particular culture because he comes from a culture that believes in an external God, in a God that has created the universe and has nothing to do with the universe, it's separate from the universe, and we just live there and we can't wait to die to go back to God. This is the culture we live in in the West. Uh, the the earth is ruled by Satan, everything is an illusion, everything is rotting, everything is sin. Uh, and when we when we die, our soul can finally get out of this wretched body and this wretched existence and finally go back to God in heaven. This is what we live. And uh, and yes, this is a worldwide thing, also. It's not just a Christian thing or anything like that. This is uh, this is this has always been the the sort of the two things that go on. One set of people always have believed, as far as we know, that God is everything and everywhere inside of you, outside of you, that there is no such thing as inside, outside, everything is one. And there have always been people who believed that there's a separation, that we are manifested into the body, and this whole thing is at best a test uh to see our worth for the afterlife. And other than that, this this earth is a is a disgusting place, and we don't only don't lie and cheat and deceive all the time because it's a test, right? Someone's potentially watching, and it will affect our afterlife and our eternal life. And this is what Jesus pointed out. He literally said, the kingdom of God is within you, the kingdom of God is here on earth. This is what he's saying. Does it get any more obvious than that? And so that was the teaching, and so this is how Jesus liberated from sin. Not by his own death, not as a sacrifice, not as a lamb, but as the Son of God, which was a brother to everyone. And this teaching liberated. It saved us from sin because it never existed. It liberated us from the delusion, the false belief of sin rather than sin itself. And this is what you see going on everywhere, all over the world. Like I said, the even our friends, the ancient Greeks, the Stoics, and others, they point to this all the time. You know, they they also say, uh, yes, there is a body and there's a so-called soul, whatever they call it, the demon, the spirit, but it is not an antagonism. It's all one. And uh the true self, that spirit that's perhaps sits within the body, there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing incomplete about it, there's nothing corrupt about it, there's nothing that can be corrupted about it. You could not corrupt that essence, that spirit, that that nature if you wanted to. You have no way of reaching it. And this is why, see, everything if you ask a question like that, you're gonna travel the world. Uh, this is why Socrates also said no one can harm another. One can only harm oneself. You cannot do an action and say something and make someone else a worse person. You can only make yourself a worse person, but even behind that person, there is the awareness that makes the person possible. The awareness is the ground of being on top of which a person may exist, a person may stand and become better or worse. But even behind that and below that, there is the awareness to where being and existence truly takes its being and existence from. And that true self behind the person, behind the persona, is uncorruptible. I always say you can neither tarnish nor polish truth. And it goes, it's the same for awareness, you can neither make it better nor make it worse. And you are that that is the true self.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

Can I just uh paraphrase something there just to see if I've understood you correctly? Yeah, um, like cast it in kind of my terms, because I always struggle a little bit sometimes with um how we treat the ego, we treat it a bit like a punching bag. I think sometimes we we have this term, the ego, from which all you know, wrongdoing can happen. Um, my thinking has also been actually you know, the nature of ego is probably has has a very innocent nature as well. You know, if we if we do subscribe to psychoanalysis, which is obviously where the whole ego idea has come from, it's the fact that you know there's a history to us, and at some point, you know, some wrongdoing, some you know, let's call it an original wound rather than a sin may have happened. And that defensive nature part of ourselves felt a need to respond in a defensive, wounded manner. And the the the tragedy is that part of ourselves hasn't let go, it hasn't healed, it hasn't, you know, it hasn't got to the reality that we've you know, we've that that that that that defensiveness isn't needed anymore. And so the way I think I have come to understand it is the fact that there's perhaps two parts to ourselves. There's the the innocent part, which is suffering, which we might want to call ego, and there's the innocent part which is non-suffering, which is our true self, it's our awareness, and the sin is to not is to not see the innocence behind our suffering.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

I mean, yeah, you can think of it that way, and and I always say we have to make our personal connection with truth, with timeless and universal ideas. And so uh that can be that. I I totally agree. I just don't want to ever call the ego a part or in any way connected to the true self, because um it is everything that you are not, the ego is a collection of everything that you are not, and so to say the ego is a part of us it can only be true in the sense if we identify with the ego, then you sort of make it a part, but it's not truly a part of you. The ego is everything that you are not, right? Everything that is added on to you as a person, even if it's by other people, right? Your parents come to the city.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

I agree. It's this it's the stickiness, that the thing that's identifying with it is the suffering of the ego. That's what makes us identify with its nature. It's the the its call sign, it's the suffering. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

Yeah, absolutely. And and this is this is why it's so powerful, because we give it all the being, we give it existence. And once you do that, you know, it's all it's always this not a paradox, but it's always the this tight rope of seeing the suffering in other people and wanting to tell them that's not really you. It's an illusion in many ways. But to them it's real, and that truly does make it real. Their suffering is real, it is not an illusion. But where does it come from? And so someone who is so identified with the ego, who is so identified with the suffering and the so-called causes of suffering, to go and tell someone like that uh you it's just an illusion, it's not real, it's offensive to the ego. And since the ego has such a grip on this person, it will be offensive to them, they think. And so you'll never get through to that. Right. And so again, Jesus' teaching is all about the ego and everyone else's. Again, the ancient philosophers, Buddha, everyone, everyone who's ever sought truth earnestly and and has gotten to it has this realization. And it's so simple. It's always been there. This is not something for the intellect, this is not something for intelligence, this is not something for wealthy or this is not something that needs a lot of time or anything at all. This is the simplest thing. It's that you are not anything other than that which makes everything possible, which gives everything else life, and that which gives everything else life is complete. And all of our suffering comes from thinking we are harmed, thinking we are not yet complete, and all our desires come from a this can heal me, this can complete me. And this is why when you see all the things that you are not, and you truly understand that you are not, all worries in a general sense, and all desires in a general sense fall off of you. This is why ambition falls off of people. Because they see, I don't need this to complete, there's nothing to heal. It's fine. Everything is not only good, it's it's perfect. It is exactly what it is. It's reality, it's the ground of being. There's nothing to make better. I cannot reach that. Even though I am that, I nothing I do can reach it. You know, I cannot go out and reach back into myself and do something. And so this is why all those people who who hoard anything, whether it's knowledge or wealth or recognition or fame or anything, they realize it's not changing anything. The problems are still there. That which is good is still just as good. And nothing is changing. And so they think, of course, and this is where logic works against us, because we say, okay, well, it's logical to think that maybe I just haven't done it enough. I don't have enough wealth, I don't have enough security, I don't have enough fame, I don't have enough recognition, my reputation is not quite good enough. Um and so we decide it's the most logical thing to do to just do more of that. But it's this fundamental understanding of what we are and what we are not that we need to get right. If you fundamentally understand that you're lacking nothing and you need nothing, and in fact, even if you wanted to, you could not make anything better or worse about the true self, then naturally all of this becomes an unnecessary thing. And this does not mean, just like the monk story showed, that oh, you just let the it's just an illusion, it's just physical, it's it's nothing. It can't make you worse or better, it's nothing like that. No, it doesn't mean that you don't do that. You still do your helping, you still do what's right, uh, but not to make you a better being or not to complete you, but simply because it's in your nature. Why should a bird walk everywhere when its nature is to fly? And your nature as a human being is to be uh to have relations to others. This is what the greatest thing about humanity is the human can see relations in the future, people who are not even born yet, and they can see relations into the past, people who's who did not know that this person will ever exist, and relations to people who live now but whom they've never met. They're thousands of miles away. The human is the is the great relation seer. Sees the relation with God, sees the relation with the earth, with nature, with other galaxies, with other humans, certainly. And there is nothing more valuable to an aware human being than another aware human being. And in other words, there's nothing more valuable, more natural to a human being to help another human being in the true sense. In the true sense. Not help them advance in their career, um, although if that is part of justice, if that's part of what truth tells you to do, of course, that's fine as well. But not in the sense of I pity you uh and I'm much better and I'm stronger, and therefore I will I will take pity, I will give you charity, and so that's why I'm doing these things. No, that's out of ego. The same exact action, this is why we talk about intention so much, the same exact action can be of so-called vice, of ego, uh, or of virtue or of awareness of reason. It's the intention. If the intention is known, this this is what I do. It's my nature. Uh awareness, reason, justice, love, truth. These are things of my nature, not against my nature. And that's why I partake in them. It's natural to me. It makes sense to me. It is a joy in the truest and deepest sense to me. Not as a feeling, not as an emotion, but as a as a mode of being. It is joyous to me. And so uh it's a big question you ask, but I hope there are some parts in there that uh you can connect with and that you sort of uh give a better sense of this idea of sin and innocence and and self-reliance and all these things. We also have to j I one last thing, because I realize your your question at a part about self-reliance as well. The person that needs help is also not the true self. The person that needs help is also perceived by the true self, by the awareness. It comes after awareness. It is once again just a persona. And I don't want to say that it's just an identity. I don't want to say it's an illusion. We have a physical body, it's true. That's not an illusion, that's not an identity. The identity, the illusion is to think that one is the body. But no, it is well and truly uh correct that we have a body, a body belongs to us, and that body has absolutely certain needs. It's a physical uh phenomenon. And uh cells and atoms and all these things, and though all these things are regulated, they have laws, and there's no way to wish oneself out of that. And yes, that body occasionally needs help. That body occasionally can offer help. That body occasionally is completely overwhelmed. 100% true. It just doesn't make you, the true you, better or worse. And this is again that confusion where people feel shame uh for needing help, because they think, oh, to need help is a lack, it's uh incompleteness, it's a worthlessness or less worthless, it's a state of need rather than a state of having. But again, since the body is not the true self, uh, whatever the body lacks is not a failure of the true nature of the true self of awareness. It is just the physical absence of something that is needed. And there's no shame or pride that should be attached to that. And easier said than done, of course, we all have felt this and probably are feeling this. We would prefer not to need help. And there's nothing wrong with that because we are we are good people. We are the the being that sees relations in others, kin in others, and we don't want to bother others. Everyone has their own challenges, physical uh challenges, needs, and lacks that don't reflect on them, but nevertheless they spend their days dealing with them. And so we don't want to be a burden in that sense. Our mistake is to not realize a physical reality. And our mistake is to attach emotions to it, to say, hey, it's just physically impossible for me to lift a thousand-pound object, let's say. And it needs to be lifted. It's not an identity thing, it's not a um a false belief. This really does need to be done. And uh, why attach any emotion to the fact that this cannot be done by me alone? Why not just say, I need help? The body of me, right? This this uh person who needs to lift this object to do the certain thing, which yes, is ultimately guided by what is right and by justice and by love, whatever it is you're doing, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it for a good reason. Um yes, it is towards that end, but it's just a physical need. It's just a physical mathematical reality that this cannot be done in this way, but only in this other way. And so, will you be a part of this other way? Is what asking for help should be. Nothing more, nothing less. And one aware person asking another aware person for help is a completely unemotional affair. Right? Because the person asking for help knows of this physical simple reality and the separation from the true self and that it has nothing to do with being better or worse. And the person who's being asked for help knows this, and so they both are just saying, just nod towards reality. They nod towards truth, they see this needs to be done, and they just go and do it, and no one owes the other one anything, no one is better than anyone else. Um, no one is reliant on anyone else in that sense, and um there needs to be no guilt and shame or pride and joy, uh satisfaction, thrill in any of this. But again, to know that you need to know you need to go all the way back and and and to see what is the true self? Who am I helping? Who needs help? Is it the true me or or the body of me? That which I possess, not that which I am, is what needs help. And so just in everything else, when it comes to suffering, when it comes to uh pride and and the reputation and the ambition, for whom is this for if I had a really good career and made a lot of money and had the reputation of one as such also, for whom are these things? Is it for the awareness, for the existence out of which all of this comes and due to which all this is possible? Is it for that? Or is it for something that comes after that that I have decided for whatever reason uh I want to do that? It's for the one after that, for the persona, for the person, for the person of me, not for me. It's the person of me. It's a separate entity it comes after. So does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:03

Uh yeah, that's that's incredibly satisfying uh what you said there. And um yeah, you you're talking around this notion of incompleteness really kind of rang home with me, I've got to say. I think something as well I hadn't realized that that fits into this. So, you know, I'm sort of definitely struggles in asking for help, but I'll also overcommit helping others. I will go beyond the point of what I should be doing and trying to help other people and not help myself, obviously, in that process. And I really do think it's that kind of embarrassment or shame of having incompleteness. So I won't go to other people until I've got this satisfactory level of knowledge or or you know, I've done enough to prove myself before I can ask the others for help, and then I'll desperately help other people trying to fill that void of illusory incompleteness, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:53

It all comes from that, isn't that so amazing? We we have this false belief, and it clearly is false, right? That we are incomplete, and of course we're no different than anyone else, so everyone else is incomplete, and everyone is just constantly trying to make themselves complete and take pity on others who are also perhaps even less complete than themselves, and so they do do some charity for them and they help as much as they can. Uh, but ultimately no one is ever complete in this way of being, and so we're just constantly going around, feeling insecure, uh, angry also at the state of incompleteness. Like, I didn't ask to be born, right? So many teenagers say that I didn't ask to be born because they perceive it as something, you know, I'm suffering, I'm struggling, I'm confused. Confusion is also just a form of non-completeness. Because clarity is something complete. When you say, uh, I have all the puzzle pieces, it's clear to me that that's a completion. And again, we can be so confused in everything. But it doesn't change what you truly are. You being confused in how an internal combustion engine works does not mean that you are a confused being in your true self. It just means something that is happening after you, something that has nothing to do with you, you don't have a complete grasp of, which is human-made, even by the way. And so we have this false belief that that we are those things, that we are our confusions, that we are our unclarity, that we are that which needs help. Um, and we shame ourselves for this physical reality. And it's a very unscientific way of thinking about things, right? Because there are physical realities. And um even in a non-physical space, such as beliefs, it's a physical reality. When uh a false belief exists and it impacts your life, that too is a physical reality. It is not spiritual, it is not essential because that essence, that spirit or what you are, does not know of that incompletion. That incompletion comes after. It is a it is a made concept that doesn't exist inherently out of the on the ground being. So it that's why we always say always work on yourself, always focus on yourself rather, not necessarily work. But when you turn that focus back and you say, Who's speaking right now? For whom is this happening right now? Who is feeling this way right now? You can always realize the true you is unaffected. And the true you, like we said so many times now, is what everything else comes out of. Every false belief, every true belief, every action that is in accordance with justice, every action that is not in accordance with injustice, and is a very much an injust problematic. Sinful act. All of that comes after. And all of that is seen, it is observed. And by that very fact that it is observable, it is also uh provable that it is not you. You can see your hand because you are not your hand. You can see your thoughts because you are not your thoughts. You can feel your emotions because you are not them. That true sense of being, that fundamental core sense of being, without which everything would be off, all the lights would go off, nothing would be perceived anymore. That sense of being uh never feels incomplete. Never feels any different way. It has this constancy about it. Right? And so that's what you're truly. You are that constant, complete core out of which all this mess, all this sin comes and can be perceived, even. And all the false beliefs come out of it. And so to me, this is exactly because it's after you. The person that we've identified with that we have created, that person is incomplete. It's very much true. Or can be incomplete. And uh the the physical body, which is not an illusion, which is not an identity, which does exist, has its um sufficiencies and insufficiencies. It has its abilities and lack of abilities. But the one who judges that as good or bad is not the true self. The true self does not do that. The true self sees reality. It is very much in accordance and and um conscious of reality. But that which separates that which judges, that which puts things into compartments, and that which values things and and wants to resent some and takes pride in other all that is not the true self. It is not the core, it is something that comes after it. And and to answer your question specifically, or talking about your question specifically, that the concept of sin is also out there, it's not in here somewhere out there. And it doesn't need to exist. If no one had taught us about sin, which those people do exist, uh then we wouldn't know about it. Then not every single thought and action would not be colored by that. And this is why we always say we need to overcome culture. And that very much goes for not only the the culture of our religion, of our uh nation, of our family, but also our individual cultures we need to overcome. We have made these ceremonies and rules and laws and processions and uh and uh beliefs and procedures and all these things that that go along with um convention for ourselves that we need to let go of because they are after awareness and they're not serving anything uh and they are not of reason, not of truth, not of love, not of justice. They are against our nature, and this is why the Stoics say, among others, uh to live according to your nature. Because any living being that lives against its own nature is a being that is disturbed, a being that is conflicted, confused, resentful, and even tends to end its own life, by the way, because it does not see the purpose in it. It does not see the truth in it. But when you live according to your nature, you live uh an effortless life, a peaceful life, of course, what else? A life that makes sense, of course, what else? A life that is complete, why should it be lacking? Because it's in your nature. And the very fact that there is such a thing according to your nature and against your nature points at something. It points at the capital A awareness which pervades the entire universe, everything that exists in it. We did not make these, we did no one invented justice, yet we can think of it and we can act in accordance with it, and in very much not in accordance with it. Um but the harm is only to our peace ever. It is never to justice itself. If the entire world and whatever other beings there exist in the universe uh acted constantly and without fail against justice at all times, there would not be a single dent in justice. And again, vice versa, it cannot be polished or tarnished. It cannot be made better. If everyone acted according to justice at all times, justice would not become a greater thing. It would not become more just. And this is the amazing thing that everything points to. There are these there is this existence, this being, this truth that is independent from anything else that cannot be touched, it cannot be reached, yet it can be seen and it pervades everything. And when you live in accordance to it, somehow you live an effortless, frictionless life. And when you live against it, somehow everything is suffering and everything is hell and everything is toil. That's a that's an amazing experientially proven reality in our in all of our lives since the the dawn of human beings, and of course, well before and well after it. Right? Mm-hmm. Some things to think about there, I think. Always thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:53

That was uh incredibly helpful and insightful.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

I appreciate it. And and that question, as as you yourself perhaps um to a fault of mine have experienced, this is a very long and deep thing. I mean, this is uh the question you asked touches on everything, right? And so we could sit here for 10 more hours and talk about it and we would not still be done. But yet again, at the same time, we were done even before we started talking about it, because we're only talking about something that already is all of ours and already exists. And so to meditate on this, to be with this truth, is all that we ever need to do. And we don't even need to do that. It's just if if we want peace, if we want to live according to our nature, then we would be well advised to constantly think about this. And one last thing about Jesus, he said, pray without ceasing. Right? We talked about this before. And this is praying to constantly refer back to, to to constantly think whom is this happening to? Who is speaking right now? And to bear in mind, this is what it is, to bear in mind the truth at all times is praying without ceasing. And this is another way he liberated people out of sin. Because if you constantly prayed, constantly meditate on this truth that you are what you truly are and everything else is not you, then you see that sin is also not you. And so then you're so-called liberated out of sin. But we're had did you ever have sin? Were you ever in the grips of sin? No. It was an illusion. And so this is the this is the sort of thing to always think about, in my opinion. And and and uh when it is thought about, when it is meditated upon, when it is uh with us, nothing can happen to us. That's the future of truth. When you're with truth, truth has never hurt you. So if you just don't leave the side of truth, nothing can ever hurt you. And I will take our next speaker.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:06

I hope you're doing great. I hope everybody's here is doing great. And uh yeah, I wanted to share something about the question of the week.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:15

So the question of the Fortnite still for this week, even though it's the last week of it, is it takes effort to become and remain disturbed. What is the opposite of effort and disturbance?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:30

It had me thinking that uh it's easy to realize through this question that our existence has uh so it became clear it has two spectrums, internal and external. Um and there are other layers uh to our internal uh uh spectrum of existence, um, which is uh it's something mentioned in the in the Quran, and um uh the question of Andrew inspired me to involve this because it makes total sense. Uh, it said that the soul is inspired, its wickedness and its righteousness, its rebellion or and its piety. So what we perceive as a separate entity within us as being the ego is actually like you say, our persona, and that depends on the external spectrum, and there our control is uh is very um limited. So our whole identity, uh since we come to existence, depends on external factors. We we don't decide uh where we're born, we we we don't decide our families, uh we don't even decide if our bodies will be healthy or will have a certain handicap, or but the amazing thing is that in in uh potential, uh we all have we all come with the same potential, with the same um uh inspiration of good and bad, which totally makes sense because we come here to make choices, and uh it makes sense for us to have within us uh the potentiality to uh be at whatever end of uh the spectrum, at whatever degree, and it it made me think that the whole point actually of our existence here is to reach that um balance uh which we say here being whole, so it is kind of to uh acknowledge that what we have control over completely is ourselves, and uh when we realize this, even when we make mistakes in uh unawareness, or if we realize that we have adopted a certain belief, but we come to realize that it reasonably that's not true, that's not truth, it's not what's right, we instantly uh let go of that, but we don't uh blame ourselves, we don't uh feel guilt, although we have the potentiality to feel guilt, and there's nothing wrong with that because even guilt is uh uh an indicator, so even the persona uh is a way for us to to exist, and we can choose uh whatever that persona uh can be like in this life, uh based on our true beliefs within ourselves, not based on uh who we identify uh what we identify ourselves with. And uh generally, when we reach this realization, we stop identifying ourselves with anything, and we we just acknowledge that we are this uh witness of reality and at the same time co-creator of reality. So, yeah, that's what I've been thinking, and uh I wanted to share that with you, and um uh because you know we tend to forget often that uh we tend to forget to acknowledge uh that uh yes we can control, but we don't have control over everything, and this uh takes this realization, this acknowledgement, which is available to us at any given moment in our days, uh no matter the circumstances, uh it lifts the it lifts the whole burden, and we can instantly reach that piece of okay, I accept myself, and I will try my best to uh stay within uh uh the spectrum that is under my control. And inevitably afterwards, we realize that uh even the things that are completely outside of our control tend to align with our internal state regardless of how chaotic it may seem uh to other people uh in the in the physical um realm in our day-to-day life, in our careers or our uh personal uh endeavors, relationships. Uh but it takes a while for us to see that, but the mere acceptance and belief uh lifts also the expectation of the outcome, and ironically, that's what happens when we stop um you know attaching ourselves even to the outcomes that are related to the uh efforts, seemingly the effort we do externally to, I don't know, to um um for example, invest uh uh time and uh physical effort to execute particular tasks. If we're coming from the space, the internal space, that whatever we're doing, we're doing with conviction and with full uh uh yeah, with full conviction, that's that's what what is actually right, we wouldn't feel that it an effort and such a disturbance to our life if we're going to do a particular task or engage in a uh in a particular uh pursuit, you know, we wouldn't regard it as uh such an effort or a burden. So and uh oppositely, uh, if we attach ourselves to outcomes and to things that are beyond our control, we feel disturbed, even if we're sitting still and we're not doing anything, we will feel disturbed. Add there, and thank you so much for uh doing this again, Atish. Thank you so much, everybody, for being here and cheers.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:41

Yeah, thank you so much for for saying all of that. And yeah, you're absolutely right. If we did not operate out of that space of incompleteness, out of that space of anything other than just to do it for because of our conviction, which in turn is guided by reason and what is just and and fair and love and truth, then it would not feel like an effort. It would be pretty much effortless. The body might be tired, right? And the mind might get exhausted, and of course, that's why we sleep. But every day we would get up and it would not feel like a struggle, it would not feel like suffering, it would not feel like a quest for completion. It would not be something we do for peace, but out of peace. There's a big difference between all this activity being for peace or being done out of peace, meaning we're we have peace. I'm already with peace. I'm just operating from that point. There's a big difference between that and to say I am outside of peace and all my operations are to get to peace. That's a very disturbed, uh incomplete, anxious state of existing. Whereas the other one, even though it might involve even more so-called work and even more so-called energy, it will feel like less effort. It will feel like uh it will feel like not suffering at all, and it will not be a quest for making us uh better or or more complete. It will just be to live according to our nature. This is right for me, and so I do it. I don't do it so that I get this or so that I finally get rid of this or anything like that. No, it's just it's what I do. This is my human experience. It's only gonna last so long, it's not forever. And so during that existence, you know, if I'm a bird, I fly, if I'm a human, I am guided by reason, and I do what is just and I do what is love and I do what is of truth. And it's it it really is as simple as that. Nature is always simple. It is not complicated for a bird to fly, it is effortless, it thinks a direction and it goes that way. It just happens for it. And it's the same with a human being. If you listen to truth, if you listen to love, if you listen to justice and nothing else, that's the important point. You know, a lot of people don't listen to truth and love and justice at all. But then there are also so many who do listen to them. But then there are other factors too. What about my reputation? What about my wealth? What about you know, I have children to take care of, what about that? And they listen to those things as well. But if we listen to truth, love, and justice, and nothing else, it is simple, it is clear, and every situation brings with it its own solution, or at least the next step that needs to be done. It always brings it with it. It is only our hypotheticals, our worrying, our our what if situations that we have, thoughts that we have going on in our head that make things seem so complicated and that we are so ill-equipped to deal with them. Of course, we're ill-equipped because it's an illusion. It's not even here yet. You're asking, what if I lose my house? Where will I live then? If you actually lost your house, it would become apparent where you then should be living. It would. If if you're if your source of some sort of resource dried up, uh you would know where to go next, or you would know what to try next, and try after that and after that and after however long it takes, but it will become apparent. It's only when we sit around and think, what if this so-called terrible thing, what would I do then? And that's when it seems so wow, I have no idea. It's so complicated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:49

Right, right. Excuse me. I uh I don't mean to interrupt, but uh just a small notice on what you just said about the what if. And um the thing is when we reach this state of being, uh equally we become okay with people disagreeing with us, accepting that okay, if I believe this is right, uh what I used to do, and I have uh honestly reached this realization maybe uh like not so uh long ago, maybe like in the last year or a little over a year, I realized that no matter how sure I am of what I how I'm leading my life. I used to um I'm generally open for disagreement, and I really am interested in listening to different perspectives. So I was okay with uh my colleagues, uh people like uh with my family, my friends, to discuss uh whatever matter and to give my Honest opinion about how I'm, for example, handling a particular situation. What I noticed was that if people don't see what you mean, you can just suggest, but don't over-explain. Don't over-explain because people will start, even if uh I myself don't ask myself, what if this doesn't go through? How I do things is that I if I'm inspired to do something, I'll go ahead and plan it and I'll have fun doing it, and then I'll have fun during the execution, uh, no, regardless of how hard it may seem. Um, but the people I'm discussing such matters with tend to uh ask, okay, but what if this is not safe? What if you lose your, for example, uh apartment? What if you uh can't get a job, for example, but no, don't leave this job before you get a new job. Get a new job first and resign. What if you stay like broke or whatever? And I understand, and I you know, explicitly there at that point, acknowledge that the what what they're saying makes sense, but it and it is risky, but for me, I don't care. I don't care as long as I'm doing this uh from the right space, I trust that at that point when I re first of all, that's just the hypothesis, and things could go right. We don't have to assume all the time that things could go wrong, things could go wrong and things could go right equally, and we have to accept both outcomes. I for myself accept the outcome that things were will will not go according to plan, but I trust that at that particular point I would have known what gone wrong, I would have, I would know, uh sorry, I would know what would uh what had got gone wrong, and I would know what to do, because as long as I'm practicing being present, I know that the right thing will come to us instantly. For example, uh, I'd be for example having a chill day, no major tasks, uh, and I'm totally okay with it. And I know that uh if a particular task needs my attention, sending an email uh um or just uh going uh out to do a particular thing, paying a bill or whatever, it'll come to me at the most convenient time, and uh I know this by experience and I trust it, so I stopped uh over explaining. Uh I accepted that uh my the closest people to me uh would have different opinions, would maybe judge me, but uh I I accepted that, and I see that even the most difficult conversations dealing with the what-ifs of the people, not even with our what-ifs, could be fruitful. In my case, it helped me realize that uh uh that time and energy could be invested differently. Uh, I could be discussing another topic with that person that would be beneficial uh for both of us rather than uh uh engaging in this uh uh time-consuming, energy-draining uh mental loop that's uh that has no uh relation to reality whatsoever. And the irony is that they uh regard you as uh detached from reality, you don't really see reality, you're delusional.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:06

Yeah, they're the ones making making up illusions and making up unreal situations, hypotheticals, which is what that is. Uh, but the one who doesn't believe in hypotheticals is the one who is living an illusion. Yeah. In their minds, in their minds, that person's detached from reality, not the one who's making up what if scenarios, which are unreal by their nature. It's the funniest thing. And it it's it's also uh it's a great thing you you bring up, and I encourage everyone to try this to not engage with what if. Every time a sentence starts with what if, to not engage with it, whether it's coming from our own mind or from someone else. Uh even if you know the answer. This is what is so um pulling of what ifs. Oftentimes we think we know we have the answer. So when someone says a what if, say, uh, I know the perfect comeback to this. And that's what makes us engage with that what if. But a person that thinks in terms of what ifs will always have another what if. And so even if you have the perfect so-called comeback to their what if, they're just gonna pose another what if and it's never going to end. And it's the same internally with our own minds. We we uh think of a what if and we fall into engaging with it because we think, ah, I uh that I know the answer off. So okay, let me engage. And then we get to a point, rabbit hole, loophole, whatever, uh, where we're completely confused and we don't know, and we just and the anxiety comes in. So I always say, you know, apply the scientific method to your life. Test, experiment. And this is the perfect thing to experiment with because you can only do it one time. One time. This is not a commitment for the rest of your life or even more than a second. Live like this for one second. When a what if comes in, delay for one second, don't respond to it. How did that feel? If it felt fine, if it if it seemed right to you, do another second, another minute. Don't engage with this what if. Just cut that off one time. Or when someone comes to you and with a what if with a hypothetical, uh oh, you I know you study philosophy, but tell me what what would you what if? And even though you have the perfect thing to say, say I don't engage in hypotheticals. Just one time, just one time and see what comes out of it. It's the perfect experiment. If it goes well, do it one more time, even then don't commit for the rest of your life. Do it one more time. And say, okay, you know, this is going well, I'm gonna do it for the whole month. Just do it for a month. And then if it doesn't work, engage in hypotheticals even more so than before. It's the perfect experiment. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain. And I'm I'm glad you brought that up because uh this is the most practical insight we can give to another human being by saying, Hey, I I'm not gonna prove anything to you with again hypotheticals with theory. Practice this, try it just one single time. And if it's better than the alternative, why not do it one more time and and so on and so forth? So I appreciate you bringing that up. That's that's very important.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:38

Atish, just a small um thing to uh wrap this up because when you said try this just one time, and if it works or whatever, then try it one other time. You don't have to commit to do this forever to live this way uh forever, because and I really like this because it it uh made me it reminded me of the fact that uh nothing is guaranteed. Nothing, even the next moment, the next moment is not guaranteed. So if we approach life in with this way of uh thinking, with this belief, with this truth that nothing is guaranteed, uh, we tend to appreciate more, we tend to approach life with the sense of awe and wonder, like we mentioned in one of the previous kinship meetings, and this links also to that innocence that Andrew mentioned. Um it's uh it's uh it's like uh an instant shift in our way of being, and it helps us so much because we'll always be uh we'll always have a tendency to be misguided and to be unaware uh in our day-to-day life. And it's it's all there is, it's all we got. And uh I in my opinion, the uh the issue uh it dwells, the real issue dwells there that we tend to forget, that we tend to take uh our lives for granted, that uh it's like tomorrow is guaranteed, and you know, but it's not, it's not, and uh I'm glad to mention that it's uh as um it's an invaluable shift of uh thinking. And I'm glad we're mentioning it here today.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:42

Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much. I'm glad you brought that up again because I I I do intend to talk about speculate speculation as part of it too. You cannot have hypotheticals, you can have have what ifs without speculation, and speculation is always wrong. It's always wrong, even when we speculate correctly, meaning that which we for no good reason um speculated actually does come about. We were not right in saying that, because it doesn't come from reason. It doesn't come from awareness, it comes from illusion. And it's just happened to be chance, essentially, right? Just like the lottery. When you pick the correct lottery numbers, that doesn't mean you knew the numbers. It just means that you speculated and and you just randomly did something that, okay, turned out to be uh in accordance with reality, but that doesn't make you any more knowing through speculation. And that's the problem with speculation. It does not lead to anywhere. And I want to point out, you know, the in logistical terms, at at work, in science, certainly, of course, there is a need for hypothesizing, right? But this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about speculation in spirit. That which makes uh that which promises us truth. Because everyone asks, what ifs uh to get closer to truth? They speculate because they think that's what they need to do, because knowledge has ended, and so now the only way to move forward is through speculation. No. Truth does not operate like that. Truth is not going to ask you to imagine, to make up illusions, to to speculate, to work with incompleteness. Um that's just the the pull of the intellect that always wants more and more and more knowledge, and there's an end to that. Knowledge will take you great, great places. But there is a point where you can also go past truth, not above and beyond and somewhere better than truth, past truth. You know, it's almost like you travel a hundred miles and the destiny and truth is right there, but you think by covering even more ground somehow you will get to something truer and you go right past it. And so I'm not talking in logistical terms. There's there's sometimes great need. In in science, there are hypotheses, they're they're built on hypotheticals in so many ways, and and on speculation, rather. Um, but that's not what we're talking about. We always have to all also remind ourselves, just like the self and the the true self and the false self, we always have to remind ourselves the difference between the physical and the non-physical. In the non-physical and the realm of ideas where where truth dwells, there is no such thing as speculation. There's no such thing as something beyond it. And there is no need ever for illusion, for imagination, for making up things where there aren't any. That's that's a physical thing when we when there's a physical reality that we don't have insight into because we're just limited physical beings. And so we, to the best of our ability, make up the rest, guided by an educated guess. And that that's absolutely fine. That has its place 100%. But not in the non-physical realm, not where truth and the highest things, the highest good dwells. There it uh everything is given to you. There's no need for speculation, and speculation will bring you past truth. So this is what I want to point out also to people, and I'm I'm glad you brought it up. Um big for time reasons, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you back to the audience uh just because uh we're out of time, but I very, very appreciate, very much appreciate what you have said here and what you have reminded us again once of, and reminded me to remind even more other people uh in the future. I want to do this more often to talk about imagination and speculation, which is the same thing. You cannot speculate without imagination, you cannot imagine without speculating. And so uh that's a great place to end it of our with our weekly reminders. I do owe you still a new question of the fortnight. And as long as the previous question of the fortnight was, this new one is short. And it's a very simple sounding question, and I hope you give it some time in your week, in your days to exp to let it expand. The new question of the fortnight is what will be the signs that you have arrived? What will be the signs that you have finally arrived? Because we are again searching from a place of incompleteness, and we're saying, I'm doing all these things to arrive, to get somewhere. So I'm wondering from the perspective that we have of not yet having arrived, how will we know that we have arrived? What will be the signs that we will use to be able to know to say, uh-huh now I have arrived? What will that be like? What will that feel like? What will be the signs that you have arrived?