You will know your true self after this

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

I thank you for being here. Instead of being here, you could have engaged in distractions. You could have thought that you are suffering and that your sufferings are impossible to overcome. And so at least you can escape into your imagination. You can escape into distractions. You can scroll on your phone. You can gossip about other people. Anything, but to not feel the suffering which you have already wrongly concluded that it is insurmountable. You could have spent more time with that illusion. Instead, you came here and you said, I can see truth, I can hear it, I may not be fully trusting it yet, I may not fully see it yet, but I know I can only benefit from being exposed to it. And I came here to experience truth. Then no matter how painful it seems, no matter how much it turns my world upside down, I am here for it because whatever happens, I know that truth knows better than I have ever thought I did. I do not know better than truth. I can see that now. And that is all that is required for truth. Openness. Openness. Not striving, not achieving, not proving your value, not proving your worth, not sacrificing nothing. Openness. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

I have been reflecting on the idea of the ego, and I feel like a lot of the time we say that the ego is something to kill and to transcend, and that it's the false self. But um, it seems to me that it's sometimes necessary for functioning in the world. Um my question is is what is the role of the ego in our lives and can it serve a positive or necessary function? Um, is the goal to dissolve the ego completely, or can we use it for some purpose and to have some kind of relationship with it?

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Well, thank you for your question. Of course, once again, a fundamental one that we're all dealing with, right? Um we're looking at these things that we're holding on to and we say, are these needed? Uh, because it would be easier to just keep doing what we're doing. And it would be easier to say, oh, there, you know what, there actually is a use. It's not the one I thought of, it's not the one I've been holding on to these things for all my life. But if there is a use after all that I didn't know, then it turns out it was still a good thing that I was holding on to it. And this is uh once again, and I didn't even get that deep into it, but it already has the form of a conversation. It's already us interacting with these thoughts that are as they have been for our entire lives, have been justifying themselves, trying to justify themselves to us. If you notice your consciousness, that which you truly are, the awareness, the lights being on inside of you, that with which you do everything in your day, in your life, and in in every area and capacity of your being, that very core of isness, the is-ness of you, the I am feeling, although it's not a feeling, but you can you can sense you can see it, you can sense it, you can uh of course it's there. That I amness, that is-ness, it cannot perceive itself. Try to perceive your own being. Go inside of you, so to speak, and try to perceive your own existence. It's impossible. And I don't want to say it's impossible. I find it impossible. Let me let me put it that way, and everyone should decide for themselves. Yet we know that we exist. The I amness, the is-ness is there. So if we could cannot sense the being, because if we could sense it, we could explain it. We can say exactly what consciousness is, where it comes from, how it operates. We would just know because it is us. The way we know that it exists, even though we can't even define it or feel it or explain it to someone else, is the evidence of it. The evidence of my existence is that I can sense things. A sound happens, a vision happens, a movement happens, a a touch happens, anything happens, and I'm perceiving it. So the fact that I'm able to perceive sense perceptions, the fact that I'm able to make sense of them, and the and the fact that there are thoughts and emotions, and all of this is perceived, all of this is seen, all of this is experienced. But who's the one experiencing it? We only know ourselves by our thoughts, and not even by the thoughts themselves, but the fact that we are able to perceive thoughts, that we are able to like some thoughts and not like some thoughts, try to get away from some thoughts, have more of some emotion, have less of another emotion. This points to the fact that there is someone who is perceiving these things, who is experiencing these things. But who that is and what the nature of that is, what that feels like, what that is, how that is defined, we do not know. It's the it's the famous example, uh, although I'm using it in a different way, that when you uh walk on the beach and you find a watch, you know for a fact that it is, that that watch has a maker, that that watch didn't just uh appear there just like everything else. It comes from something. It it took its being, so to speak, its existence from someone else because someone else manufactured it, made it, put it together, thought of it in the first place, designed it. And so you know for a fact by the existence of the watch, you know for a fact it is proved to you that there is a watch maker. Now, that watch is our consciousness. We know for a fact that we are here, but what that consciousness is, how it where it came from, where it's going, in fact, and and what its true nature is, how it operates, we do not know. And what we do know of it, again, we only know due to uh external factors that we can perceive, that we can make sense of, that we can work with, that we can interact with. That's how we know that there is someone there to experience it, but who is the experiencer, we do not really know. And we don't need to know, and that's okay. Um, and I wanted to say all of this to be able to answer your question. This, presumably, still presumably, of course, because it this is not something that can really be proven. Presumably, this is why the false self appears. This is why the false self exists, because that awareness, that consciousness, that I am, that is-ness, does not know itself. It cannot perceive itself. And so it is saying, Am I this? Am I this? Am I this? I could be this, I could be that. And so when we see the evidence of ourselves in the world, when we see ourselves as an employee, when we see ourselves as the child of someone, the sister, the brother of someone, the friend of someone, the member of a certain society, this is the evidence of us. This is this is how we appear in the world. These are the functions, these are the roles. And this I am, this is-ness, this mere awareness and consciousness to which nothing is attached, which has no shape, no definition, no sense of itself, it has a sense of everything else that it comes in contact with, but it does not have a sense of itself. That one can be thinking itself into a certain shape, into a certain form. The form of a student, and then of course the form of a successful student and everything that comes along with that. The form of someone who has been deprived of something, the form of someone who has done a very, very great thing and has benefited multiple people in great ways. These are all forms and shapes that this formless and shapeless thing can uh give its existence to. It's like water, right? Whatever, or air, whatever vessel it's in. That's sort of the shape that it has. But is that its inherent native shape? Or is it shapeless or is it actually all shapes? That is the thing we cannot know, we cannot see. But we what we can see is uh when one identity falls away, one can go into another identity and another and another, or into multiple, as is the case. But what is the one that is going into identities? And um, as one identity falls away, does it stop existing? And is that why it goes into a new one? To keep existing? If so, what happens in the interim? Did it not exist in the interim? And if it did exist in the interim, why does it need an identity at all? Why does it need a shit to take a shape when it can be shapeless in all things? And so if you ask what the purpose or what the current function of the so-called ego, the identities, which is the same thing, those are synonyms. What's the function of the identities? It is to give form to the formless without knowing that the formless does not require a form. Like I said, air or water exists in every shape. It can go into any shape and every shape, but it doesn't need to. It never needed to. And so we can say, okay, now that I realize that I don't need to take a shape, um, and in fact it doesn't benefit me at all to take a shape, might there still be a use to these identities? Might there still be a point in engaging with them? And the the answer is uh both yes and no. And and I won't just leave it at that. I I will I will explain why it's yes or no. It's no in the sense that you don't need it. These identities are not needed for the true self. The true self. If it's not needed, it is not necessary. If it's not necessary, it is in fact not beneficial to engage in them for the true self. It depends on your vantage point. If you're always looking from the true self, as I think we should, as is our nature, as is um truly how we operate effortlessly in peace, without taking shape, that's when we're at peace. As soon as we take shape, all the demands of that and all the things that it excludes us, that it limits us. When we're in this shape, that shape is not conducive at all to achieving this thing. So we take another shape, and then another, and then another. And all the turmoil, all the striving, all the all the persevering, and all the all the pursuit and the struggle comes from that, right? And um the answer is also yes, the identities can be made use of. How? By realizing by and by recognizing what they truly are. They are shapes that water and air can assume to achieve a certain task. And that task, however, will always be a physical, logistical, uh, many times profane, profane, not in the sense of bad, but profane in the sense of lower than the divine, right? Um, there's the physical and then there's the non-physical, and everything comes from the non-physical, all physical comes from the non-physical. There is no physical without the non-physical. And so uh you want to improve the physical conditions of another human being, of a whole society, of animals, of the planet. Okay. So assume the shape of one who can do these things. Assume the shape of, I don't know, this the social worker, the doctor, the lawyer, the police uh person, the police officer, uh, the politician, the scientist, the monk, whatever it is that you think you need to assume, the shape and form of something, to improve something physically with physical means, that's your role. That's a role that you're assuming. If you identify with that role, it becomes an identity. And if it becomes an identity, the consciousness forgets itself. It it thinks it is a shape when it is, has no such responsibility, no such necessity to live. It it gives life to all shapes that it assumes, not the other way around. And so this is why it's a yes or no, right? If if you see identity as identity, as your true self, as your very being and your core, you're wrong. Because um uh air in a bottle is no different than air in your mouth and your lungs, right? It's both air, is not better or worse, um, existent or non-existent, depending on what it is in, what shape it is in, what container it's in. Uh, but if you take that shape, if you assume that role and responsibility for something, because you are well aware that you don't need it as the true self. But I mean, you are here, you are awareness, you are consciousness, um, and pure awareness, especially the formless, shapeless consciousness, especially is open and free to give itself to truth, to love, to justice, to reason. Reason is the guide of awareness, reason is the guide of consciousness, that formless, shapeless, all-pervading thing that exists in all things. I am me to me, and you and and you are I too. Inside of you, you say I. You don't say you. You are you to me, but to yourself, you are I. So in every single person, it's I, I, I, I, I, the I. It's never another. We're all pervaded by the same consciousness, by the same awareness, by this, by the same thing. It's like I always say, like rain and rain and rain, rain drops. The raindrop is the instance, one instance of rain. But it is not a part. It is fully water. There's nothing missing to it. It's fully water. But in terms of it being the rain, it is only a part of the rain, yet itself is fully the rain, also at the same time. Just in that same sense, you are fully awareness, you are fully consciousness, you are the thing itself. You are not lacking anything, you are not a little part of something that then is complete. You are full and complete in yourself, but you are not all of it. You are an instance of awareness, an instance of consciousness, an instance of that which gives you being and someone else being and someone else, and every flower and every bird, and every animal, and every uh living and non-living moving and unmoving object. All of them are pervaded by this. And so, to that which you truly are, a role is not needed, is not needed, but it is also not improper to it. It's also not something that can destroy it, right? So, this true self does not need to run from anything, it does not need to chase anything, but it says, okay, I am awareness, I am consciousness, I am in this body, and this body is a physical thing, and other people have physical bodies as well, just the same. And we live in a physical world. We step on a physical ground, we interact with physical objects. And when we're in that realm, objects can take damage, objects can be made more beautiful, they can be complete or incomplete, they can work, they can achieve something, or they can be broken, etc., etc. And I aim to repair things. I am someone who repairs, I am someone who heals, I am someone who is guided by my one and only guide, which is reason. And according to that reason, um I see pain when it is not necessary, and I wish to do something about it, not to make myself better, not to make myself proud, not to fulfill some dream, not to earn an award, not to fulfill my obligation, otherwise, I wasted my life, none of that. Just because it is reasonable to do so, if I have the resources and the wish to do so. And so I go do it. Now, when I go do that, technically I assume the role of a caregiver, uh, whether that be a doctor for a human or a veterinarian or or an or a volunteer for an animal, whatever it may be, right? There are multitudes of roles, but this is the intention. This is what's truly happening. So roles, of course, you can assume and use and achieve and fail at them and do all these things. And if you're guided by reason, that's all well and fine. Even your failures will be meaningful to you, so-called failures, right? But if you say, no, this is me, this is who I am. And if this is taken away from me, well, my life has ended. I am damaged, I am broken. And if more is given to me, I am proud of that. I am exalted by that, I am made happy by that, my life is given meaning by that. No, that's not right. And all suffering comes from thinking that one is their role. All suffering comes from identifying with one or multiple particular specific shapes by that which is shapeless. All suffering comes from that. Let's try to think of a single suffering that does not come from a role that we assume to be our true being, the the source and that which makes all our existence, all our activities possible. Somehow. Somehow, an activity of us is also the source of our entire being with which we do that activity. And this is what it means. Uh at least we're approaching it. This might not be everything, but this is what it means, know thyself, when the ancient Greeks say. Or this is what it means when the ancient Vedic texts in the East say, know that, by the knowing of which all things are known. Yourself. So I hope somewhere in there there's there's an answer uh to those questions, and we can of course discuss further.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Um yes, thank you for the response. Um so I guess to summarize, we have to like it's it's quote unquote okay to like uh like take on a role as long as you don't forget your true nature, which is like just the being. Um it's it's really interesting that we are all these humans with this like cosmic background. Um it's that that completely forbids everything, but we're we're also in bodies and we can assume roles and shape. It it also reminds me of the quote by St. Athenaeus, uh, which is

SPEAKER_05 22:00

um god became man so that man can become god or something like that and it's it it's like this loop of potentiality turning into actuality and back into potentiality and you you can see it everywhere it's like that cycle that repeats itself in in like plant seasons um and so on but yeah i i guess yeah that's just the cycle that happens and it's it's beautiful to see that um this formless can take on form but then it eventually goes back to the formless and yeah and it never really needs to take form when i say form it's not necessarily that the consciousness takes form as a human body that is not its form the human body is not its form right it's only the the so-called mental construct of a role that this consciousness fulfills in this world whether it's with a with a body or without right the body is not really the form the um you know this is my duty on this earth or this is what I do this is what I spend my time doing that's a role whatever that might be whatever name that has or doesn't have that's a role and so but yeah it's still uh exactly as you say it can go into that it can take that shape and how wonderful though as you also have said that it is able to take that shape without ever uh without ever forgetting that it is not the shape it can take any shape all shapes take its being from the shapeless thing yet it is not the shape itself meaning it can always come out of that and um either take another shape or never take a shape again whatever it wants to do it can do all of that and yeah it can physically manifest it can physically um affect things perhaps that uh are guided by reason that are improving objectively physical conditions of of itself or other people and and the whole world the universe the the space whatever whatever's out there another planet um and on all that or choose not to right and it's all fine um so you know you say that um we like this shapeless thing can turn into a ship it's um that ship reminds me is like an idea um like a concept so does that mean identities are also concepts and ideas that that's like a concept of a tree um and it can physically manifest into a tree in a physical realm but so can identities also be ideas that we become in a way or yeah interesting interesting way of thinking about it you're right i mean you have to first uh have a concept of what you're doing before you go do it and so in that sense you're right you you have the idea you give it life and then you also give it essentially physical life right if I say um I want to plant a tree just going with the tree example um and I and I get the seeds and I find the land and I have permission and I make all of that happen and I travel there and I make get all the resources that is needed to travel there and to and to dig into water and to plant things and to and to watch them grow and to protect them. These are all physical happenings that I am creating from an idea from a concept yeah it's true um and and this is this is the beautiful I don't want to call it power but but the ability that the non-physical has over the physical that the shapeless has over all shapes which then all activities take their being from yeah so that that's interesting um that means like so our true nature is the formless and we take form and that form can be any kind of idea like I guess like our lives are just ideas then or like like it's like being and then it lives in some kind of body and and then it goes um but but like you like your existence is almost you're living in an idea and you're able to perceive that and in others as well I'm not sure if we live in an idea because uh we we have an idea of existence but that existence exists independently of that idea that we have of it right and so yeah our our worldview the way we view things and and certainly the value judgments we put on those things those are ideas and we do live in the context of them we live in a worldview in that sense you're right but that which is able to make up a worldview that from which the worldview takes its existence conceptually and then also in in physical activity stemming from the worldview that one does not have a worldview the pure existence the consciousness the I am the isness that one doesn't have a worldview it doesn't have opinions it doesn't make value judgments it isn't sad or happy it isn't um it doesn't approve or disapprove of anything it but yet it is that from which all approval and disapproval takes its existence its being from without that being that existence of yours you can do nothing you can do nothing you cannot have a worldview without being without existing without the consciousness the awareness that you're doing it with you cannot thoughts cannot appear to you ideas cannot be pointed to emotions cannot arise and go away and because there's no one watching them there's no one observing any of that if if the being is not there you see what I mean everything comes out of it every single thing that you do every single thing that you think believe in or disbelieve agree with disagree with every single thing that comes from that very core isness this is why we have to use funny words like that isness the I am because it doesn't have a name it cannot perceive itself it it does not know what it is you do not know what or who you are yet you can clearly see that you which cannot be defined which does not know itself you can clearly see that there are ideas that there are concepts that can be believed in or not that can be argued over or you know what I'm gonna let that be you are doing everything you're doing physical and non-physical with that very core that very being that awareness that that isness that uh very obviously exists even though it cannot perceive itself I I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly so can consciousness perceive itself well you tell me you are consciousness you have consciousness however you want to say it what what is consciousness how shall we define it um being isness yeah but what is isness um um think of it this way when you observe everything in your life which you are doing right oh this idea came to me that's an observation of yours I didn't like that very much at all that's an observation um I'm thrilled by this that's an observation um I've been feeling sad for quite some time although I remember times that were where I didn't feel sad. That's an observation and um I wish I could achieve this in my life or I wish other people wouldn't behave like this. That's an observation. So all of these things are being observed in front of you they are in front of you right they're appearing in front of you whether it's an emotion, a thought, someone else's action, a memory, a wish, a dream, a desire, a letdown, a disagreement, a disappointment, a disillusionment anything you've ever experienced in your entire life and that's a good word right experienced meaning it came up in front of you all that is being seen all that is being observed experienced forgotten about remembered it's all here right who is the one seeing that who is the one who has been observing all of this who is that what is that can you observe that just like you're observing all these other things I I can observe that I have being but I don't know what that is how do you observe that you have being um I don't know there you go it gets difficult the closer to the true self you get the less of it you are you are seeing the less of it you are able to perceive and you might say um as we have been saying well I know exists but how do I know I exist? Well because uh I think therefore I am as Dekar said right I think I have a thought I'm I am the one perceiving that thought and you're absolutely correct but you're not the thought and so you you know of your existence by the effects of it right I the thought comes and I can see the thought so there's a seer there's an observer therefore I know I am yes but I'm not seeing the observer I'm seeing that which is observed and the fact that something is observable is proof that there is an observer but it is not the definition of an observer. It is not the observer seeing itself is the observer observing and therefore knowing that it exists. But uh when you try to look at yourself you know it's almost like imagine a world in which there are no mirrors right and you're trying to you're observing everything I I observe this room I can even observe my hands but I say they're my hands not me right and so okay so who is the one observing and it's almost like you're trying to go back and back and you can't see it. You can't see yourself that which um observes everything it doesn't seem to be able to observe itself and because of that very nature of the of the observer because it cannot observe itself it can think that some of the things that it is observing is it and this is like we said in the beginning this is the this is the false self this is the identities this is the so-called ego it's like oh maybe uh I'm a mother I certainly am a mother I have a child so therefore I'm a mother right so that's me so I'm a mother oh on top of that I am a patriot I love my country so that's something that that's another thing I am that's another part of me as people say that's a big part of me and uh I used to be a teacher for 40 years so that's another part of me and all these things. And so we construct something and we say that's me. But when uh someone else comes and speaks to us who knows that they're just the observer and none of the things observed they'll say uh that's a biological process you set in motion and have been taken care of for another human being so that's an activity it's not you uh the teacher that's that that's her job not you uh your patriotism is yet another activity not you your name is not you it's your name your age is not you it's your age it's the duration of time your your physical body has existed on earth that's not you you see and so this is how easy it is to think you are that which you are observing but by the very fact that you are observing it you can see that you are not it I observe other people because I I am not them right I obser or I observe objects in front of me because I'm not the objects but the looker the looker cannot see itself and uh all our suffering as we say all our suffering comes from the fact that we think we are again uh a father and uh so now when something happens to the child my very existence because I am fatherhood I am father so if what if something happens to my child my vi my own very existence is at danger if my child were to die I am to I am going to perish because then I'm no longer a father. Of course then the identity comes in that um uh I used to I used to be you know right I'm as I'm a I'm someone who has outlived their own child that's another identity uh I'm a cancer survivor that's another when you have cancer it's like uh that's your identity uh I'm I battle with cancer that's my identity when I've when the cancer is gone um and that identity must leave because I no longer have cancer I cannot identify as someone who's battling cancer. So now oh no so now I'm stressed out actually uh but it's easy now I can replace that with being a cancer survivor and I can keep going to my meetings and I keep I can and I can keep uh thinking of myself in that way and identifying introducing myself talking about it it's so very easy to identify with things that we are not. Now does that mean the cancer didn't happen does that mean uh I did not struggle physically for a very long time and I overcame multiple uh physical and non-physical challenges of course I did of course I did all of that happened all of that is real and it's uh wow amazing that a human being can overcome such challenges it's all true it's all real it's all amazing truly also in a very in many senses beautiful but it is not you that's all it is it's not you um I I have a question yes um is it is there like I mean I don't want to say danger but can one be misguided into thinking that they are awareness and identify with awareness yeah because awareness is also just something that's being observed when I say I am awareness it's not quite true actually of course I operate out of awareness awareness is yet again a direct proof evidence of my existence without existence there is no consciousness without uh existence there is no awareness of existence or of anything else so even that I am not because even that is being observed by whom the question still remains and now we really can't see anything now we're really in the in the dark so to speak because even awareness I am not wow yet I am the one who is seeing that even awareness I am not so the the proof the evidence of my existence does not go away I am only able to define less and less of that so-called am I am and that isness yet it exists I cannot talk this away I cannot talk this uh existence away and I can also not talk it into being and I can also not talk it up or talk it down it is it is and I am the one attach attaching all these things to it I am the awareness I am the one who does all these things I am the observer I am this and that it's a neat way of thinking about it and it's certainly probably closer to the truth of that unknowable simple isness I amness that experience of existence but it itself cannot be seen by itself this is the amazing beauty that we are in if you think about it even the knowledge the information of what one's self is not necessary is not required if it was required we would not exist right if existence required perfect knowledge and definition of what itself is and we don't have it then we wouldn't exist right now right here yet we do so look even that is not necessary and this is why we say uh you know identities are harmful and all suffering comes from identity but ultimately even if they were not harmful even if no suffering came from them they would not still be necessary they would still not be necessary and that's the amazingness and so of course but on top of all of that I want to cause a suffering I mean what is the point this is why we say reason is the guide reason tells you what is the point of you suffering and you say okay there is no point of me suffering you're right so I will let that go okay but I really really want to know who is the one who was suffering and who's the one who's not suffering. That too is not necessary other than the fact that it of course frees you from all the things that you thought you were and now you're not but the one who's being freed also didn't need to be freed. Just like it doesn't even need to know what it is and cannot know what it is. It also ultimately never needed to be freed it never was that it's the strange territory that we're in now where language doesn't make sense and ideas doesn't make sense and there seems to be a paradox when reality is clearly functioning within that so-called paradox is just another identity that we that it is not a paradox you know it's just it's just another identity that or or an idea a concept that we think of it as a paradox. Again this is only our vision our view of the world our world view but whatever reality is it clearly is and is working just fine despite all of us disagreeing about pretty much every single observable thing it says that's all fine that too is being observed by me and that too is not necessary and it cannot touch me for better or for worse um thank you for answering the questions yeah and thank you thank you for asking them this is literally the core right we we've gotten so deep into the core we don't even know where we are anymore and we don't even know what to say and and what to do anymore and that even in itself is the ultimate proof that we need not do anything or know anything or or be anything. So that's a beautiful beautiful thing to get to and this is what I'm focusing on these days right and this is what I'm this is why we're talking about this this is why I bring everything to that because if we can keep coming back to this remembrance to this knowing of unknowing to this unknowing of knowing then um what is everything to it nothing and everything just an activity it can choose or or uh abstain from and we'll just be guided by reason rather than fear on this side and ambition on the other side and pride on the other side and All that. And regret and shame on one side. Instead of all these things pushing and pulling us, we can say that too is being observed. That too is not necessary for me. Whatever that may be. So uh thank you once again for that uh amazing discussion. I will I will move you to the audience with uh gratitude once again. This is uh, as I just said, this is something to see, discover for yourself. You don't need anyone else or anything else to do this, explore for yourself and rest in that. And when we remember, we can keep coming back to this and we can keep resting in this no matter what the external situation is, no matter what um life is throwing at you, as they say. You can all you always have access to this because you are this, whatever that might be. So uh I will invite our next speaker here.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

I'm at a little vest for words um because of your last conversation. And so like when you get to that point of like thinking that we're not even um awareness, like do I even have a question anymore?

SPEAKER_05 45:17

Right. Um Do I have do I have a problem anymore? Right? Do I have a worry or or a desire anymore, too? By the way, if you think of yourself as that, if you see the ultimate reality in that. So, which is also kind of beautiful, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

I uh wanted to talk about the question of the fortnight.

SPEAKER_05 45:39

Yes. Um, the question of the fortnight is what is the very best thing that you can do against ignorance in the world? And I want to say it one more time just because it's the first time we're mentioning it again. Uh, what is the very best thing that you can do against ignorance in the world?

SPEAKER_00 46:04

So when you said that the first time, uh what I thought was just focus on yourself. Um, so mind your own business. And um, there was a video that you posted about 10 months ago um that you titled People Can Change, but you cannot change them. And so, and one thing you mentioned was that if you do focus on yourself, um then other people will see the change in you, and that will lead them to want to change themselves. And I agree that that does sometimes happen, but um it sort of feels like a little bit of um a crutch on the way to like getting where you really need to be, and that's realizing you can't like changing others is not only not our responsibility, but it shouldn't even be like a secondary reason for like why we choose to do the work of life. Like we should choose to do the work of life for its own sake. Um, because if you're doing it to affect other people, then you run into um needing to be understood. Um and there has to be an outcome, otherwise, oh, I'm I'm you know doing the right thing, and these other people around me, like they're not seeing it, and then um they're not changing, and that's what I was expecting would happen. So I guess there's like an expectation, and there's an expectation of a certain outcome attached to doing the work of life, and it should just be done for for its own sake. Yeah, and and like the concern of of being understood. It's like a lot of people who have done the work of life have been misunderstood, and that always kind of um bothered me a little bit. Like um, like Socrates or Jesus, who would speak in parables? I always thought, like, why would you speak in parables when you know people are confused? Why would you not just speak plainly and so they can understand you if you're if you're if why you're doing what you're doing is to like change people's lives and like show them the truth, why would you speak in a confusing way? And if people are misunderstanding you, why would you not try to address like how they're misunderstanding you? But I guess peace is not being concerned about that.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

Um certainly, certainly, peace is uh needs to not be concerned about that. But uh, I think in Jesus's and and also in many ways Socrates's case, um, they're at the same time teachers, right? They're they're not just people who who just be they're teachers and uh and teacher just in the sense as we all are, right? When we talk to a friend and we make them see something that they didn't see before with kindness and with love and with reason, we are teachers too in that sense. Um, but when you are teaching, you have to be very, very careful not to touch the ego. If you say something that offends the ego, and the ego, the identities, right, are still very powerful over the person, then the ego will say, uh, this offends me. Let's go, we're going. And we'll take the person with them, right? But if you can sneak it past the ego, and behind the ego is the true self, if it if it lands in the true self without touching the ego, without offending the ego, then the truth can be perceived, then it can be accepted. And I believe that's why Jesus, for example, among many other people, was speaking in parables and because those who know it was able to reach the information, the truth in it, right? And it it was circumventing the people who look at the world out of nothing other than ego. And for those, the truths in that were hidden, they were non-offensive, they were nonsensical. And everything that doesn't make sense to us is just okay, we can dismiss. But if it's said directly, every single person for whom you are fighting for, you are destroying them. And you're destroying yourself. If he said that directly, and in some cases he has, and of course he did end up um dying because of offending people, right? So it ultimately even the parables were too offensive for the amount of and the the extreme unawareness, uh, ignorance, um, ego that was going on around him, right? But I I believe this is the attempt of uh people such as him to sneak truth past the ego so that it can it can reach the true self, and then the true self can let go of the ego because only the true self, the person themselves, can let go of the ego. You cannot take away ego from someone, you cannot take away identity from someone. They will leave you and they will shout at you and they will scream at you and they'll get angry and it will get even worse. And this is, of course, in connection with what you're talking about about trying to change people. You cannot change anyone. You can only change yourself because you're the one inside of you that that uh is behind the so-called ego uh that might be unreachable, right? And only you can reach yourself because you you are yourself. So if you do that work yourself, and um as a result, inevitably you see that you had peace in yourself all along, that the simplicity, this effortlessness uh was not only inside of you, but is you in uh in many ways, then everything becomes smoother, everything becomes literally frictionless, right? And my point in that video was um that kind of change within you is very noticeable to people, right? Because people are constantly observing the world for solutions for things to make them feel better and for things to make them see things clearer. And someone all of a sudden living their life with uh increased peace and effortlessness and an interest in the world and and just able to perceive and dwell in and rest in beauty so much more, they're gonna say, Hey, what are you doing? How is this working? Right. And so that was just my point that it uh potentially has that effect. But you're of course 100% correct in pointing out that even that, if it becomes an expectation, if it says, ah, I'm changing all these things myself, and of course I'm benefiting from that. But you know, half the time I'm looking over to the people that I secretly have an expectation of becoming better, only for selfish reasons, of course, because it we might say, okay, we're roommates. So if this person is more at peace, then uh I'm gonna benefit from that too. That too is an identity, that too is is an activity that we're identifying with, that we're putting expectations on, and that will ultimately work against us. It will ultimately create suffering again. And um it defeats the whole purpose of doing the so-called work of life, of becoming more aware of these things. So absolutely. And um, you're also right, even in calling it a crutch, because um, if it is an expectation, it is a crutch. This effect never goes away. Of course, as you work on yourself, other people might have the potential to take notice and then to become interested. And that way they will push the ego out of the way and say, hey, you're doing something that works. And I'm not gonna listen to this thing that tells me that no one has peace, because I can clearly see it in you. So they will push it aside at least for a moment, for you to tell them something. And that's your opportunity to sneak truth past the ego, right? But this opportunity should not be an expectation. It is not an achievement of yours if you get to do it, and it is not a failure of yours if the other person does not notice or does not care or does not is not receptive to what you are saying. It's just another identity if if that's what happens. But at the same time, I'm in favor of crutches, I have to say, because uh it happens so many times in our lives where we are too afraid, even though we're seeing the full picture, we're too afraid to go there. And so, but when you say just take a little bit of that, just take a little bit that you are a hundred percent sure of that will definitely improve your life in every way imaginable. Go do that, and then you still have the option of not doing the rest. But of course, the person gets a little bit of a taste of that will want more and more and more and more. And so in that way, I am uh I favor crutches, I think they're okay if used in a correct way, but you're absolutely right. There's always a danger of it becoming another expectation. But if one expectation uh helps us to let go of 10 other expectations, I call that a win, right? And and that might be exactly where a person is in their so-called journey, um, where there's the opportunity for them to switch to one expectation by letting go of 10 others. In my opinion, that's that's a good thing for where they are at. And eventually a person who works like this, a person who is advancing in this way, will see that too to have been an expectation and to say, okay, that that helped me. That helped me. I got I got rid of multiple other expectations with this, but this too is an expectation. And now I am ready to let go of that as well. Um, this is sort of what I experienced myself, what I observed in myself, and therefore, in limited quantities, I like to pass on these these little crutches that I that have been very, very helpful that I see working time and time and again. And as you have just said, every single person who uses those so uh so-called crutches um comes to a point where they where they recognize it for what it is and they drop even that. And um I think it's just beautiful. I think it's another strategy, just like a parable is a strategy. I think a crutch is a strategy as well. So yeah. But uh yeah, I appreciate you you you pointing that out because it's very, very important.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

I think what's nice um about what you do is if you're if you mention a crutch, you'll call it out as a crutch. So like when you were talking when you talked about ignorant people, um, you said don't get angry at them. Like you could pity them, but even that like is not you said it's a crutch on the way to yeah, getting to where yeah, you need to be, and just realizing that you two were like are ignorant and um no one wants to be ignorant. Um, but there's another expectation that I think sometimes comes with doing the work of life, um, is people will expect, oh, if I if I do the work of life, then it will be reflected in my life in good things coming to me. And so I will have a better life. Um, I will, I don't know, maybe my relationships will get better. Um, I'll be like everything I do in life will just flourish because I'm doing the work of life. And I think that's a dangerous expectation. And you see that in religion sometimes. People will um be challenged in their faith or they'll just leave their faith because they said, I was doing everything God told me to do, and look what happened to my life, all of these terrible things, and why do bad things happen to good people? And if you're you're doing the work of life because of, and you have this expectation of those kinds of returns, then um you're doing it for the wrong reason because you're not doing it just to do it, because it's worth doing in and of itself, um, regardless of of anything else that happens because of it. And sometimes doing the work of life leads to being so misunderstood that uh people kill you. Um and something I've I've like struggled with is this idea of clinging to life and putting things that um like facilitate life over doing what really matters, so pursuing like um the work of life. And so you've made video videos about this before where you say do the work of life first, like do the most important thing first, and then everything else can come after that. And I, even though I know that, that doesn't um it isn't reflected in how I actually live. I think all of these profane things are more like if you were to look at my life, it would look like, oh, she thinks all of these profane things are way more important than um doing the work of life. Um and I think I don't know why I value um those kind of things more than what I know is actually the most important thing.

SPEAKER_05 59:45

You know, that too is is a stage that I can I can clearly, and I don't even want to call it a stage as if there's a progressing and there's a chronology. I I don't want to do that, but it's language, it's limited, and I that's all I have to use. Uh all I want to say is I see that as not an unusual thing, not a wrong thing, not a weird thing, the place where you're at, so to speak, where you are looking at your life and you're saying, I know what the truth is, I know what the highest good is, and I can see it. But clearly I don't trust it enough yet, or I don't, I'm not committed enough to it yet, because I still all do all these things that reason time and time and again has shown me that it is these things are against it. Not that reason is hurt by it, not that truth is hurt by it, truth cannot be hurt. But if I am such an understander and a devotee of truth, then why am I still engaged in these things? And I want you to realize that this too is an identity, that this too is a mental construct that is making decisions for you and that is driving your life, and that this too is something to let go. Because this person, this person that you are, so to speak, this person that is looking at their own life and sorting certain beliefs and activities into the good pile and the bad pile and the I don't know yet pile, that too is something that's being observed by you, by the true self. Well, now when I say you, I don't mean the person. Before, when I said you, it was the person. Now I'm talking to the true self. That too is something you're observing. You're observing this person, you're almost looking down on yourself, which is not the true you, looking at your own life. I mean, look how many levels of illusion are in this, actually. How many levels of imagination are in this? There's the there's the observer, of course, as always with everything. And then there's this person who does not approve of this person that they used to be and is trying to be this person that they want to be. And uh, but in there, there's that person yet again that is this far into that and is having a challenge now and is going down a different path. Oh, and now they're coming back and they're going the right direction. Who's seeing all of this? Right? Who's observing all of this happening? The so-called person traveling in their chronology and on their journey, on their path, falling back, now advancing, now realizing they took a wrong turn, and now they have to backtrack. And maybe next time they can. This too is only an identity. The identity of the seeker, the identity of the worker of life, the identity of the one who knows truth but does not quite trust it yet. These are all identities. Can't you see that you're observing all of these things and that there was a time when you still existed before this person was traveling on this path who was facing this particular challenge, that person did not exist yet? You were you were fully in those things that you now deem as uh not conducive to truth, not right for you. You you were fully those things. You didn't even have an understanding of that there was a separation, that there was something else. So before this knower of the separation, you still were there. It's not like you didn't exist, and uh this person is constantly leaving things behind and changing. But you didn't change, you're the observer of that change. So uh, you know, in other words, this is again the true self identifying with something that it is not. You are not the one who knows truth but is falling short of it. You are not that one. That too is only a persona. The word person comes from the word persona, which means mask, which is an identity. It's only another role, it's only another form. That too you can and you will leave behind because now you're seeing it. You used to be the seeker. You used to be the seeker of seeking. You couldn't even seek yet, but you were seeking how to seek. Remember that? And so, and now you're the seeker, and and at some point you're also gonna see as you are now, I think, that you are not the seeker either. You are that which observes, always has been observing and always will be observing. And so uh in practical terms, every time this thought comes up of I did it again, I know that this is not conducive to truth. I I I know that this is not where reason wants me to be. What is natural to me, I know that, but I did it, did it once again. That's a thought. And that thought is allowed to come. That thought is allowed to come. You have permission to have this thought, and um it is not a failing of yours to have this thought. It is not and it is not a success if this thought comes up less than it used to. That's not a success either. The one that considers that to be a failure or a success is also something observed, is also just an identity. So don't believe that either. Okay? But again, in practical terms, the thought comes out, I've done it again. Observe it. As you are anyway. But become aware that you're observing it. And become aware that you are not that which you're observing. And just let it be. This is not me saying, okay, see it and then repress it. See it and then hit it. I'm not saying that either. I'm just saying be in touch with reality. See what is truly happening. In this moment, this thought is coming up and is bringing with it the emotion of shame, regret, guilt, whatever whatever maybe. And you can observe, uh-huh. As soon as I have a thought like that, that feeling comes in. That too is being observed. Um, but I was here before that thought. I was here before that feeling. And and who is the one now who feels worse? And who is the one who feels better when those thoughts and emotions are gone? Is that one me? Or is that too just being observed? The relief of that, the relief when the thought is gone. That too is a changing thing, no? Sometimes it is there, sometimes it is not. You are the one who's not changing, observing the change. So all you have to do is literally observe. Observe. You are the observer, you are not the seeker, you are not the achiever, you're not the failure, you're not the the one who's lacking, you're not the one who just uh improved themselves and it has proved that to themselves. And it was an amazing display. Wow. Ten years ago I would have never been able to do this. A year ago I couldn't have done this, and now I did it. I knew something right from wrong that I didn't know before. Amazing. That too is just an identity saying, uh proving itself to itself, boasting itself. It's not something you need to do. It's just something that's happening. It's just a thought, it's just an emotion. It is not you. And you can have these thoughts and emotions. It cannot touch you. Just like a failure of the seeker is not a failure to the self, an achievement of the seeker is also not an achievement to the self. You are full and complete, and you are, in fact, what all the seeking derives, its being, its existence, it's its energy, its activity. And this is objectively a good thing you're doing to see right from wrong and to choose to go with right and to observe that you're still in some areas going with the wrong and that you don't want to do that anymore. That's a good thing you're doing. It's not going to happen any other way. But you also need to realize that even that is just something, is just an activity. It's just something that you, the true self, is observing and it is doing that, these activities, to better, better its physical existence and to be more in touch also non-physically with the peace that is always with it, the reality that it is a part of. And it just wants to be more aware. You don't want to be unaware, you don't want to be unconscious, you don't want to be ignorant. These are all beautiful things. And this is your way to do it. This is how you are approaching it. And this is how genuinely you are getting more and more of that vision, not creating peace itself, but seeing it more. This is how you're seeing it more. And so, what if we just said this is all part of the the process, and this is exactly how all it needs to be? And that there is a period of things that we just need to go through that the mind's going to throw at us, the thoughts are going to come, the emotions are going to come. Because before they were unchallenged. And now they're being challenged by what? By truth, by reality, all these things. So isn't it then actually a beautiful thing? Isn't it a sign of so-called even to the identity? Isn't this a sign of progress and a sign of success? So even the identity should be happy with this. And then, of course, uh, one day, even that identity which is happy with that, will be let go of as well. But there's time for that, and we'll get to that, and there's no rush. And the one who's doing this already really has it. We can know this without fully trusting it yet. We can know this without fully trusting it yet. And so every time the thought comes up, you just say, I'm seeing it, it's here, I'm not denying it, I'm not repressing it, I'm not going to react. And as you know, every emotional reaction is an overreaction. Every time we say, Oh no, it's happened again, and and I wish it didn't, and what can I? This is all overreaction. None of it is needed. None of it is needed. And you see that every time, whether you underreact, react, or overreact, things are just as they are. They come about just as they do, and you don't need to do anything. And so why not just observe? It is happening, this is real, and you don't lift a finger one way or another. You don't repress it, you don't exalt it, you don't say, I want more, I want less. You don't do anything. You say, This is what's happening, this is observed, and this is all part of it. Not a single experience that I am able to have is outside of human experience, is outside of human nature. I am human, so everything I experience is human nature. Every so-called challenge, problem, whatever you want to call it, I have, everyone is dealing with. Everyone is, has, or will deal with the exact same thing, and the solutions are the same. And the solutions are the same. Human nature has the same nature, every human. So all the solutions are the same. And there's really on only one solution to everything at the core of it. It is it is this vision. If you know yourself, you know that by the knowing of which all things are known. And so these days I'm more shifting myself also, and this is what I'm telling everyone. As soon as I find something out, I I share it. And this is how I operate. I don't know everything, I hardly know anything. In fact, the more I'm learning, the less I know, which is which I now see is a good thing. I used to also look at Socrates and say, um, as you know, the the oracle in in Athens said that Socrates was the wisest man on earth was named Socrates. And so everyone came and told him, it's like the oracle said, You are the wisest man. And Socrates said, It is true, because I know that I know nothing. And I was like, What are you talking about? We're after wisdom here, we're after knowledge here, we're studying, we're reading, and we're discussing, we're journaling, and we're doing all these things. Isn't it to gain wisdom? Isn't it to know things? How can you say you know nothing? You clearly know so much, you've taught me so much. And I used to get annoyed with that as well, just like you were talking about with Jesus and Socrates and all that. It's the same experience. But now I'm beginning to understand what he's saying. As we were talking about in the first conversation here today, uh, the more you know yourself, the less you know. Because that which is observing everything cannot observe itself. That which can learn any piece of information in the world can never learn itself. And so the more we learn about the one thing that truly matters, truly, the less we know. Yet we are not at all fazed by that. We welcome it. We say, uh-huh, so this is what it was all about. I don't see it as a waste all these years of learning and trying to become, even though I didn't need to. I see that now. But that's what led me here. And I and it seems that's what led Socrates and Jesus there too. They, you know, people like that. The Buddha is a is an excellent example to this. The Buddha became an ascetic for many, many years. Who he he he did this like hardcore living in the forest, denouncing everything, eating his own excrement. Because they were saying, We need nothing, we don't need the world, everything is an illusion, and he lived like that. And and after years of doing that, he said, This is not it, this is not enlightenment, this is not wisdom. And this is what led him to so-called enlightening, awakening, whatever you want to call it. He had peace. If he had peace, he had everything. And so we can call that whatever we want from the outside, but all of that led him there. And so I think you're already drawing the connections here. Everything that is happening to you is what is bringing you to this. And so and you don't know what was necessary of that truly, and what was unnecessary of that truly. You have no idea. You might now say, okay, I've been doing so many unnecessary things in my life thinking that they were necessary, but you don't know if they were not somehow necessary in some other way. You have no idea, you don't even know who you are. You don't even know what you are. If you're lucky, you don't know what you are and who you are. If you're unlucky, you you have a very good idea of who you are, and you're out there defending it every single day. And so, true you seriously, we do not know what is good, what is what is bad in the in the non-physical sense, in this sense, and we do not know what is knowledge and what is to know and what is to not know. Um, yet everything is operating, everything is happening for us, and the whole world is serving us in so many ways that we uh don't even know how it works and why it works. Does that make a little bit of sense?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I've already been through um the process several times of having my worldview changed.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:46

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

Um like several times from things you've said that kind of sounded like parables. I didn't understand what you meant by things, and then it just took time and like it it just took time and like of doing pursuing like the work of life, and and then I just realized that like one day it would just I realize it made sense and that the way I see things had completely changed, and that's happened enough times now that uh I don't get as frustrated when I don't understand something. I say, Oh, here we go again. And I know this is gonna lead to um like I say so much peace, but like it feels like I'm more aligned with with truth. And so yeah, I don't I don't get I don't worry about it as much or get as frustrated, but I hadn't looked at my frustration with um I guess just not um prioritizing things the way that I think I should. I hadn't looked at that with the same um perspective, and so I appreciate you putting it in that light.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:58

Absolutely, and this is all you have to do, and and you are at the point of I think being able to do this because this is an openness to to say, wow, even that's being observed. And everything that is observable is not me. Everything that the observer observes is not the observer. And so, wow, even that is not me. Even the one who is um proud and disappointed, even that's not me. Even um about the most beautiful things in life, the highest good, as we say, even about even the work of life is just an idea, it's just a thought, it's something observed, it's an activity that the doer does, but is not the doer. And so, uh, but that used to be scary. If you if someone told you that earlier, that would have been very scary to you. And perhaps you're like, Well, what's the point of living or doing anything then? And that's scary, and and you just want to crawl under a rock rather than live like that, right? But now it's like, oh my God, uh, everything that happens to me is to my advancement in ways that I don't even know. And I am willing to know less and less and less and less until perhaps I completely dissolve. But whatever is going to happen, uh, it's it's in my nature and it's to my benefit ultimately, although even that word is a value judgment, right? And so this is where we're going. We'll we'll see where it where it goes, where it ends. But as I always say, each step is its own reward, right? It every time this happens, it's like, wow, just a yet another world opened up to me, or multiple worlds, and I see all this now, and there's so much more space now, so much more room to be, to just exist in, and so much more peace, even though it was always there. And every time this is happening, you wonder how many more times can this even happen? But then again, at some point, as you said, you're not even gonna worry about that. It's like I'm not the one doing it, I'm not the one really controlling it. I'm just the one who can be open to it. Or I can close myself off to it. But what am I closing myself off to? How can I close myself off to something that I don't even know about? Who is the one who wants to close off and to just forget about all this? Right? And is it my nature to be open or to be closed? That is also a question that can only be answered by by the true self, right? And so, but this is what's happening, and we're just letting it happen and we're and we're open and we're taking it uh as it comes, I think, and I hope. And that's just a good idea. Um again, truth has never hurt you. So why ever close up to truth, even though it seems like it's gonna turn my world upside down? If then that just means it needs to be turned upside down. So go ahead. It's like a doctor, right? You don't know what the doctor's gonna do to you, how all that works. But you say, do to me whatever you what whatever is best you know better, and I don't understand any of it. And so this is sort of how it goes. And so um, I appreciate that, what you said.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

I have uh one last thing to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

So something else that uh used to bother me was like the fact that Jesus didn't try to stay alive more, and so my thought was you were here to teach and you were teaching and having such an impact. And then again with the misunderstanding, like you why did you not try to clear things up? If you'd lived for longer, think of how much more you could have taught and benefited the world. Um, but Seneca talks about this too, that it's not how long your life is, it's the I guess the quality of it, but more like living it well. Um, and sometimes to live life well, well, in that the length of your life doesn't matter, and even having life, like that's not something to cling to. It's it's truth, it's just living um in accordance with truth. And when you look at yourself or like who am I when you ask that question, and then you start to just completely fade away. And like, who was I before I was a like this in this body? And it makes it a lot easier um to not cling to life in that way, and to live it the way that um it's best to live it, in my opinion. And yeah, so that's yeah, yeah, that's something that always used to really, really um confuse me, like how people could face death or like not care at all, like, oh, I'm gonna die, and that's that's totally fine, and not do something to like yeah, clear up misunderstandings or try to like preserve your life, because it's not life itself that is the value, it's it's the truth, it's truth that's the value.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:59

Right. Um now you see that this is how and this is why those kind of people did those kinds of things, and now you can see that. See, this is again something that's being observed. Uh, how you used to not at all be able to understand this, and in fact, felt so-called negative emotions towards it. And now you can see all of this. Again, who's the one observing that? You didn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

Like giving value to the life of great teachers, saying, Oh, their life was so valuable because of all of this wisdom that they passed on. Like, would their life be less valuable if that wisdom never got passed on to anybody? No, no, like and would they say, Oh, I guess I shouldn't live you know a wise life because no one else is going to know about it or benefit from it. No, they would have lived their life the same way, regardless of if other people were impacted by it or not.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:52

Yeah. And that's the thing, that's why we don't need to strive to become. This is what I always say, every single person that we meet, most the vast, vast majority of people, are striving not because reason tells them, truth tells them, and they see an opportunity to just do something great. No, it's they're striving to become. They think of themselves as incomplete, not worthy of even achieving anything yet. And so they try to become, and everything they do is to try to become someone. They literally said that I'm trying to become someone, I'm trying to make a name for myself. You already have a name. You already are someone. You already have your full being that you're ever going to get. And so we're so good, I always say we're so good at pursuing peace. But the one who has become an expert in pursuing peace does not know what to do with it when they do have it. Because it's a totally different skill set, so to speak. To pursue peace and to actually have peace are two completely different things. And it is, it turns out that it was the pursuing that that was keeping us from having peace because we had peace before we even started pursuing it. And so the pursuit is actually what keeps us blind to it because it's always there, like I say. But the pursuit inherently means, well, if I'm pursuing something, then it means I don't have it. I lack it, it's over there, and I need to get over there. But no, actually, uh Saint Francis says, What you are looking for, you are looking from. And so that's that. That's that. We're looking for peace or to become complete, and and we're looking out of completion, we're looking from completeness, trying to find completeness. We're looking from peace, trying to find peace. It's nonsensical, but we don't know that because we've identified with the becomer. We've identified with the one who is a lacking person, and we've identified with the one who, although they are lacking, they hope to stand to become complete one day. And as long as we're doing that, we're gonna suffer. And because we've convinced ourselves that we're well, we didn't convince ourselves, we've identified with that form, that incomplete form of someone who is lacking. And so, of course, that's what we think we are. But um that too is only perceived. That too um is a changing thing. It's a changing thing. Observed from a place of non-change, no change, nothing happening, no activity. It's funny, you know. It's uh i i if you if you didn't understand it, you would call it a paradox. But uh at the same time, it's the simplest, clearest thing at the same time.

unknown 1:26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:54

Um thank you for talking with me for so long.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:57

Of course. Yeah, thank you for talking. Um, because this is important, this is huge. And it's it's it's really also beautiful, just in a human sense, not not in anything else, but on a human level, it's beautiful to observe this change. Uh, because I've I've been observing it for a while, right? We've I've known you for a little bit, and so it's it's just beautiful to see um this happening in another human being as I observed it uh in myself and and in a few others. It's just a beautiful thing. And so um never forget that this is what you're doing, which you already know. Again, I'm just asking you to remember. And those are our true friends, whether it's Jesus, Socrates, or anyone here in this group. I always say a true friend is the one who makes us remember and not the one who makes us forget. But that's what most friendships uh are these days. It's it's um uh a distraction. We distract each other, we make each other feel good because we're running away from the thing that we can't really solve. And that is oppressing us. And so we are relieving each other by distracting each other. And that's what we call friendship often. And it's not an evil thing, it's not a bad thing. We don't know any better. So that's just what's happening, right? No value judgment on that either. But objectively, it is a cause of suffering. And so why not realize that the true friend is the one who remembers the true friend is the one who every now and then uh offends the ego, hopefully not too much that the other friend does not come back to it again, right? That's always the trick. That's the tight rope for all our friendships. Um, but also as Spinoza says, uh, there is no nothing more valuable to an aware person than another aware person. And this is what I like to think of this group as, right? Just a group of aware people who are the most helpful uh thing to themselves and to other people. Uh, but again, not out of a need, but just out of a want. Reason tells me to be closer to other reasonable people. If I have the choice between a reasonable person and an unreasonable person, I'm going to gravitate towards reasonable. There's nothing more obvious than that. And so that's why we're here. Nothing more and nothing less. And so I appreciate you being here. I appreciate seeing this. And I, and I uh on a again, on a human level, I enjoy seeing that. It's a nice thing, it's a beautiful thing. And um, so I thank you for being here. I'm just gonna move you to the audience. Um, and uh once again, of course, with great gratitude of you speaking here, and uh as everyone always does here, right? With great openness and kindness, which uh I do not take for granted, but it is easy to get used to, right? Everyone's coming here speaking so honestly and openly, and no one's getting offended, no one's fighting or arguing with each other because they're trying to prove something. No, it's just um a place to be, and that's beautiful. And with that said, I will uh invite our next speaker as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:17

Hi um, I just wanted to say the two questions and answers before me were so amazing and brilliant. Like, seriously, wow. So thank you, all of you. So I wanted to ask you, please, if that is okay. Um, what is God source or delight? How can I connect with it a way that is permanent and meaningful and healthy, please?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:45

Well, uh, that's a question that each one of us have to answer. Why? Because I always say um we have to have a personal connection to timeless and universal ideas, and and certainly the the the idea of God, the concept of God is is it is that it's an idea, of course, because uh independent of the existence of reality, we have an idea of reality. And so that idea can be right or wrong, it can be um accurate or inaccurate, whatever, but uh there's an existence beyond that. And what you see that existence beyond that, that's that's up to you, and then has to satisfy you. And I mean satisfy in the truest sense, not as a feeling, not as an emotion, not as a passing thing, but your reason being satisfied, your reason saying, I approve of this. This makes sense to me. Uh, this shows up in my experience as a useful thing, an undeniable thing, a beautiful thing. And um what what I only always say is that um we can. So this is a beautiful thing that has been happening in human history that I remember reading about, and I recommend actually everyone read this because it is in the reading recommendations. It's called A History of God by uh Karen Armstrong, and she shows that throughout history, in all religions, there has been this period and group in every religion that attempted to define God and realized that God can be defined not by defining what God is, but by defining what God is not. What God is not. And the more you do that, you say, Ah, okay, well, I can clearly say this is not God, and this other thing is not God, and you keep going and going and going. And whatever is left at the end, by exclusion, you know what it is, but you don't know the thing itself. And this is very similar to our discussion today that has been going on about the self, about the true self, how we say the true self observes everything, um, all activity it sees, all activity it does. And um, it observes all change. But who is the one observing? What is its nature? What is its features? What is its identity, so to speak? How can we identify it? And we realize we can't. We can't know what it is, we can only know what it is not. And what it is not, we see as the identities, right? That's why we call the identities the ego, and the ego is just another word for it, the false self. There's the you and the not you. And when I go around thinking, um, I'm a 54-year-old former very successful architect, and these days I do this, and um people think of me like this and have a great reputation. Not as good as it used to be, but I'm trying to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the narrative goes on and on and on and on, and we think that's what we are. See, it's a perfect definition of what we are. Perfect definition. There are all kinds of details in it. There's a past and a current and a future. There's a narrative in it, and it's quite an exciting narrative, by the way. Used to be like this, and then I overcame this challenge, these challenges, and that allowed me to do this, and now I operate on this higher level and these amazing things and all that. And now I have great enemies, and I'm fighting, and I just achieved this, but I'm still coming short, coming up short here. This is a great narrative. It's a great exciting thing. But it is right, but it's just a construction, it's not real. It's a mental construct, it's something we've built up as a statue of ourselves, but it's not ourselves, and we keep worshiping it because, and we don't call it a worship, we just call it us, but that is truly what we're doing. This this true self is giving that statue being. It's making the statue, first of all. It is the maker of it. All energy, all activity comes from the true self without our existence, without the lights being on. If we didn't wake up this morning, everything we did after that would not have happened. And it's the exact same thing with the self and the false self. The false self isn't merely an activity of the of the true self. It is merely uh something that it did or perceived and is perceiving and experiencing. And so, to come back to your question, you know, what is God and what's a healthy relationship with it? Uh, I would only say that keep focusing on that which which God is not. And I want to tell you, God is all pervading, right? We can see that it is in everything. We can see that. We we see the evidence of that. We once again do not see uh the existence, the being of the things themselves. We just see that they exist, that they be. And therefore, we know that they have a being, that they have existence, but we don't see the thing itself. So, in that way, we can see that what we might call God in terms of just reality, existence, being, the creation, it clearly is here, the creation is here, so there's a creator, and um, but that all pervasive, that all being is not something changing. And so when we say I am now more in touch with God, more than I used to be, and oh no, I can feel that I am not being more and more in touch. In fact, it's receding a little bit today. But then the next morning we wake up and we say, No, no, I I'm in full contact with it, and it's beautiful and it's joyous, and it's it's it's making me feel alive, and I and I understand everything now. But then by noon we come down from that again, and it goes up and down and up and down and up and down. That isn't God, because God is not a changing, God is not a veining thing, God is not stronger now and weaker then. And since everything is pervaded by existence, everything is pervaded by being, everything is pervaded by reality, everything that is real is true, and everything that is true is real. And in that sense, I see God merely as a synonym, the word God, the word God as a synonym to the word truth, and vice versa. Truth is a synonym for the word God. And so if truth, if reality is always there and always fully there, and it is always you and always fully in you, because there's no such time of the day where you are less real or more real, more being, less being. So this God, this truth, this reality is your very nature. Even in the in the Bible, it says you are created in the image of God, in the image of truth. And what does image mean? Image means likeness to be like something. And of course, it's not a physical likeness, right? So it's it's a it's a likeness in what then? A likeness in spirit, a likeness in in the nature. So you share the same nature with truth, you and truth, you and reality, you and God have the same nature. That nature is not a changing thing, it is not a thing that can be stronger or weaker, worse, better, truer, less true. It cannot be any of that, and it has never asked you to become better, it has never asked you to prove something to it, it has never asked you, it has never required you to do a certain practice or to abstain from a certain practice, it has never asked you any of this. It has never asked you only when you feel elated, only when you feel joy and happy am I with you. And whenever you are sad and depressed or disillusioned or disappointed, I am far away from you. How? You are this nature, you are nothing other than this nature, you and you are part of it. You are it. Again, in other words, it becomes difficult to speak in this way, but you do not stand apart from the universe, you do not stand apart from reality, you are it, and so you cannot be less real, you cannot be more worthy. The thing of what you are trying to become worthy of by so-called making your relationship with God better is you. You are that truth, you are that reality, you are that being, that awareness, that observer that sees everything, experiences everything, but takes no color from it unless it thinks it is something that can take color. But even that ability to believe that, even the ability to become lost in an illusion, so to speak, takes its takes its existence, its being, its possibility from the true self, which in fact cannot be deluded, is not an illusion, is not unreal, is not weaker or stronger, is not more competent or incompetent, is not um something that can understand truth two hours a day and feel it five hours a day, but not the rest of the day. You are the very thing that has giving been giving existence to everything you've ever felt or experienced. You are the source of everything you have ever felt or experienced. And those feelings and thoughts and experiences, they come and go. But the one in which they are occurring, that one never comes and goes. That one never changes. That one is never better or worse, or weaker, or stronger, or or more joyous, or less, or more knowing, or less knowing. It is this you are the space in which all of this occurs, but you are not the occurrence, you are not the things happening in there. You are the space in which they occur. And that space is ageless. It has no nationality, it has no religion, it has no philosophy, uh, it does not believe in things and disbelieve in other things, or agree with some things and disagree with other things, love certain things and hate certain things. All of this is occurring inside of it. The loving and the hating and the believing and the disbelieving and the ignorance and the intelligence and every single thing that you have ever experienced, the joy, the sadness, it is happening within you, and it takes its activity, its happening, its existence, its being from you. Without you, there is no one to experience these things. And so when you so-called experience the state of being more or less in touch with God, that too is only something that you are experiencing, that you are seeing as the perfect seer. And so you do not need to worry about any activity, any proving yourself, any spiritual practice, any ceremony, any doing to become more or less worthy of yourself, to become more or less uh existent. Your existence asks nothing of you. You already have it, and it is full and complete, and it comes from that, and in fact, is the very thing that it comes from, which is also in itself full and complete. The fullness and completeness of you is not different than the fullness and completeness of everything else, of which once again you are a part of and instance of. And uh, that which is full and complete does not create things that are not full and complete to then make it part of its own being. However, you look at God, right? Whether you're Christian, Muslim, atheist, uh, or have your own ideas of reality, of existence, of truth, um God which makes everything and is everything does not create incomplete, lacking, broken things as part of itself. And um nothing that is incomplete and lacking can create something complete and not lacking. So you have the same nature of that which created you, which ultimately is you, because creator and creation is all one, it does not stand apart. Creation does not stand apart from the creator looking at it. And the creator does not create creation that is unlike itself. Something complete and perfect, creating something incomplete and lacking out of incompetence? No, certainly that wouldn't be it. On purpose. Why? There's no there's no reason. There's no reason for that. And so I just want to tell you, you know, uh just because I'm seeing these things also in myself and in all things, this striving and this achieving, but then oh no, I lost a little bit of it. Oh, but I regained it even more than I had before. Oh no, I lost everything I ever had now, and now I have to start from scratch. All this, all this is not necessary. Yet, yet, it is also not a danger. It is also not a danger to you. Because that which you are cannot be changed by it. You are the one observing the change. Now I am better, now I am worse. Ah, this person perhaps can make me better. Oh no, this person left. Oh, they're back again. The one who is observing all this changing is observing it from a point of what? Changelessness. Is observing something lacking or something being perfect from the point of what? Lack or perfection. Perfection. Right, is observing completeness or or incompleteness. How does it know about completeness or incompleteness? It's observing from a point where none of that um means anything. Even matters, yeah, yes, and it's just seeing it, it's just observing it, and nothing can touch it. I cannot touch you and make you better, I cannot touch you, attack you and make you worse. I cannot. It's impossible. You can think that. You can give it, you can give my action that meaning and think that you've been just been made better, or that you've just been attacked, and that you've just been uh something has been taken away from you. But that too is being observed. I used to have this, now I don't, because of this person, or vice versa. Before this was taken from me, I was there, but now a part of me was taken with it. No, I'm still here, I'm still full and complete. I don't have some part of me with missing that is now not able to perceive certain things or whatever. I still hear truth, I still hear it uh its call, I can still understand it, I can still know it, I am still um magnetized towards it, I'm still pulled to it. All of this is still happening. So, what has been taken away from me? Nothing. What can be given to me that to make this more complete, more better somehow? Nothing. So I want you to realize even behind the wish or the idea or the desire or the activity of getting closer to God, there is God. Even behind that, and you can see that, you can experience that every time when you feel less close to God, so to speak, you can experience that happening, and you can also experience that you're experiencing that from a point of non changing, non lacking, no desires, no goals, no regrets, no anything. All of the regrets and goals that that comes after this being, this knowing, this seeing, this observing. If it was behind the observing, You could not observe your regrets and your shames and your guilts and your desires and your wishes. It's in front of the observing. And it is also not in the observing because the observer cannot observe itself, as we've as as we've kind of been discussing and seeing in this whole meeting. The observer cannot observe himself. We cannot say, there are people who say the self is God. Everything is God, so the self is God. And then there are people who say, Well, certainly I am not God. There must have been a God who made me. All of this thinking is done by whom. But there's disagreement everywhere. But I want you to be able to observe that everyone who says, Yes, I am the observer and I am God, and everyone who says, Yeah, I'm observing things, I'm experiencing things, but I'm not God, they are both saying these things from the same place. From the same place. Yeah. From the same activity, from the same being, from the same existence, from the same nature. And we don't need to put a name to that nature. We don't need to say it's God or it's this or it's that or it's something apart from it. It's a human that, whatever. Whatever it is, whatever it is, it has never asked me for an activity. It has never asked me for a ceremony. It has never graced me with its presence and never punished me with its absence. It's always here. It's always here. Does that make some sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:56

Beautiful. Absolutely. That yes, so beautiful, so valuable, and felt so good. I didn't get it until now, but now it it makes so much sense. And it feels so good too. Um you know what you said that we're like we are God and God never leaves us. That's I don't know. It's amazing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:21

You can never stand apart from God. Never. You can never for a second not be real, not be existence. And God is reality, God is existence, right? So you can you can never leave, you could not want to leave that and leave it, and you cannot be left by it. Because it would be the self leaving the self, it's not a thing. Yeah, and we are worthy, you know, like you are that you hope to be worthy of. You are that, you are that, right? You because you you cannot stand apart from it, you cannot stand apart from the one that is worth. You know, this is worth, and I'm somehow outside of it. No, all of existence is here. You can't leave it, even if you wanted to. And it as soon as it leaves, it takes you with it, wherever it would go. I don't know. Again, these are the things where language fails us, and it doesn't make any sense really to talk about it, right? But just realize that. I mean, every single person who disagrees, right? I say I believe this, you say I believe the opposite. Another says I believe neither of those things. Another one says I believe four things that you guys have never heard of. Whatever anyone does, they do it with belief. Whatever they apply their belief to, it is evidence that they have the capacity to believe, that they have the potential to believe, that they have that apparatus of belief, which they can then somehow perhaps choose to apply to this or that, or to withhold it from this and not this. Whatever that is, that comes after. That comes after. The potential, the ability, the apparatus of what we call belief is something we all have inside of us. We all have it. And we don't need to do anything to retain it, and it cannot be made, its capacity cannot be increased or decreased. And so when we say, oh, this person is closer to God, but I'm so far away, or I used to be closer, or I used to be further away, and now I'm closer. We're all saying that from that capacity, that ability which is full and complete and it is has been given to you with your birth and has never been made better or worse. And it's the same with thinking about God. We cannot be further or closer. There's also, like I said, no spiritual practice or anything, ceremony or anything, or pay anyone uh to get closer to that. It's not possible. I can like get closer to me, existence can like get closer to existence, being to being, reality to reality. And we do not stand apart from any of these things, which are all one. One. There's no multiplicity in our in the way we observe it, in the way we feel it in our existence. So uh just spend some time with that. This too is not required of you that you look at things this way. This is this is what I'm saying. And if it makes sense to you, it'll make sense to you, or it doesn't, right? And so naturally, once again, effortlessly, this will be something that is with you now, or that the vision of it rather, um, or it is not. That's up to you. But but dwell in that, you can you can um look at it, examine it, feel it out, um, and see what parts of it, if any of it, makes sense, and etc. And and and things will happen without you even wanting them or willing them to happen. It was just gonna happen. It's natural to you, effortless. Um, it's just about seeing in our lives what is God not, what is the self not? Is God the self reality, truth? Is it an emotion? Is it a feeling? Is it a thought? Is it a state we can come into and come out of? Is it is it a uh a mood? Is it a mood that we can be put into and pushed out of? Is that what God is? I don't think so. I would say no. Okay, I would say none of these things uh is God. God is not an emotion, not a mood, not a feeling, not an idea, not a stage, um, not a uh so-called uh concept that I can believe in or not believe in. Behind all of that, what is there behind all of that? And what is always there, that to me seems more like God than any of these changing things that come and go can be given and taken and all these things. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:29

Thank you so much. That that really touched something with him. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:34

Well, I appreciate you um, I appreciate you coming here, right? Because there's no so-called prize, right? No one's given anything here, certainly not materially. And um, but there are a lot of reasons to not come. So-called reasons, right? Oh, I'm not good at public speaking. Oh, I don't want to bother anyone, or um, you know, I can figure it out myself, or this is probably stupid, what I'm about to say. All these, again, mental constructs that come up in all of us, all of us. Not a single person does not have this. To say, even all these things are just observed. I can observe this fear, I can observe this discomfort, or I can observe this joy, blah, blah, blah. But it's observable to me. It is not me. But yet, still, once I let go of all of these observable things, this fear, this belief or disbelief, agreement or disagreement behind all of that, there's still reason that calls me, that I can clearly see without effort, without having to prove myself to it, without having to do anything. It is my nature. And that nature says, I want to do this activity, I want to ask this question, I want to do this or that, or not do this or that. And to follow that is to me the true human victory, if we're still even thinking in those terms as in victory and defeat and all that, right? But on a human level, this truly is uh a human victory, right? It's not on the battlefield, it's not here and there, it's inside. It's inside, it's non-physical. And so um I like seeing it again, once again, on a human level, it's a joyous occasion to see someone uh not listen to falsity, not listen to multiplicity, that which tells us we are all apart and we're all different and we're all in different camps and and we can be attacked and we can be dangerous to each other and uh and all these things. It's it's it's all one thing. When you zoom out one long enough, right, it's it's all one thing. And we say, this is not what's gonna lead my life anymore. What's gonna lead my life is the big picture, the zoomed up perspective, the the oneness that is really everywhere and in all things, and nothing separate in that sense. And so, yeah, and I and I thank you for being here. Thank you. And I will um put you back to the audience for now once again. Uh, thank you for being here, and I hope that you make use of it more. I mean, this is what I say to everyone: this is your resource. And not just the kinship meetings, like the whole Discord, right? Uh, every single thing that's happening here is a resource. And every week we come here together to do what? To play card games or to play a drinking game or to uh distract ourselves from the so-called problems that we're facing uh at other times? No, we're here to discuss, to exchange, experience, to give ourselves a clearer vision. Some person has a clearer vision on this, and another on this, and another on that, and another on that, and these people are exchanging. They're exchanging. And what one is capable of, the other one is two. They just don't know about this particular thing. So they're exchanging. So now two people are capable of two things, and three people of three things, and ten people of ten things, and so on and so forth. So this is what we're here to do, and this is your resource. Come here and use it. If you wish, also no obligation, right? No one here needs each other. But if you want it, come here and make use of it. Because when you're guided by reason, by truth, by awareness, by love, by justice, you cannot make use of something in a wrong way, in a bad way, in a damaging way. You cannot. And so you don't need to worry about anything. And I'm certainly not someone to take offense if you asked a question that was just not right or something that I cannot answer. I I'm not gonna say only ask me questions that I can have an answer to so I can look good in front of all these people. I've never said that. I loved uh seeing something that I didn't see before. I loved being wrong. Right? Because it's it's whenever we are so-called wrong, we are being freed of a false belief. What's better than that? And so um, I will take our next speaker here.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:29

It has been a very wonderful experience being here for the first time.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:36

Oh, I appreciate it. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:38

Yes. Um I actually had a question to ask.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:44

But then I wondered about it. My question was how does someone find peace in doing things that they do not wish or want to do? And when I thought about it, I was like, I want what I want to do. What difference shape the things that I want and not want to do? I wonder if that's like a kind of discrimination that I have still. Um I don't know, I feel like any activity has beauty that lies in it. And I shouldn't come to an activity with the intention of oh, I'm just I just want to be done with you. I just want to pass you by and go see something else, go do something else. And I feel like a part of living life is to approach everything with with honesty, with openness, so that you know, even if you don't enjoy it right now, to be able to enjoy it more and more as you look at it, examine it. And see it closer, I guess, to see what it is, it's it's not there, an activity is not harming you. Uh that's what I I think is what I think.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:25

Yeah, and that's an amazing see. This is this is a great, great thing to be engaged in, and you know this. Um, you're wondering what is it, or what is also the the proper way when I do need to make a decision. I mean, so many, so many decisions are taken from us just when we realize that this is actually not a problem. This is actually not something I need to change, right? Even though I might not immediately see it, as you said. Um, not only might there be utility in this, but there might be beauty in this and truth in this. And this is just how it needs to be, because reality is giving me this. It's happening, whether I like it or not, as they say. And so so many of our strivings, so many of our decisions, so many of our, oh, I need to fix this. When we realize there is nothing to fix, we don't need to do anything. So there's a huge increase in our vision and our understanding of peace in that, as you are expressing and I think also uh clearly experiencing. But then there are still those times where we do need to make a decision. I mean, objectively, objectively. And then the question becomes on what basis? On what basis? And this is really the question of all questions when it comes to the self. On what basis am I to look at the world? From what perspective would it be best for me to look at this world? And that's really the question. And the identities are all too ready to say, look at it from my perspective, from my perspective, from my perspective, and value the things I value. It's trying to provide you with an easy solution to your question. What should my basis be? What should my tools be? And I always say, um, how can we, you know, if we ask, how can we differentiate between judgment, between saying, oh, this is good and this is bad, and this is not how it should be, this is how it should be, but it doesn't seem possible. This is judgment. When we look at the world in value terms, and we assume necessarily that we know better, to say something is good, we need to know that it is good. To say something is bad, we need to know better. To say this person is incompetent, we need to be competent. Right? So every time we judge the world, every time we judge an event in the world, something that is happening clearly, as good or bad, as something that should or shouldn't, we are assuming that we know more, no more than what? Than reality. This is what the this is what the so-called ego loves to do, to know better than reality. It turns on the news and it says, ah, these stupid leaders of these nations, they don't even know what they're doing. This is so obvious, this is so clear. I know better. And then uh this this person who is driven by the ego, they break their leg after watching the news. And they say, This should not have happened. This is ridiculous, this is this is wrong, this is suffering. And in that case, okay, before they knew better than uh heads of state. Okay, fine, possible. Now, who do you know better than? When you say my leg broke, and that was not that is not a good thing, this is a bad thing. Whom do you know better than now in this situation? The only possible answer is better than reality, and to say, wow, I mean, realize that for a second. I know better than reality. Interesting. Or um, you know, this person doesn't want to be with me anymore, they don't want to be my friend anymore, they don't want to be my uh husband anymore, whatever. That's a bad thing now that I'm experiencing. Uh so once again, whom do I know better than reality? I know better than all events, I know better than that which causes all events. Interesting. And so this is obviously ridiculous, but this is what we're doing every single day. And I'm not accusing anyone, but we've all have done this, regardless of we're if we're still doing it or not. We always say we know better than reality. I deserve this, I do not deserve that. So, what shall we make this determination based on? And to me, the very simple, the very practiceable, even in the moment, in the heat of the moment, as they say, when all the emotions and the thoughts are coming and there's pressure and a decision needs to make, be made quick. What can I go into? What can I fall back on? What can I rely on right there, right then, to know if I am judging or if I am discerning. Judgment is is a wrong thing, it's it's a knowing better, but discerning is looking at truth, not looking at oneself, one's own opinions, one owns one's own beliefs, but to look at truth and to say, hmm, what is truth saying? What is truth pointing me at? And to make a decision based on that. And you can say, okay, well, uh, what if I think I'm looking at truth, but I'm actually not at all looking at truth? To me, the way to know in any moment and in every moment is this. If you are feeling any sort of way about it, if you say, Oh, I'm very much afraid, so I'm gonna make this decision. Or if you say, aha, there's a great opportunity here to um become proud of something. Or to uh feel really joyous, ecstasy, to feel ecstasy about this, to get a thrill from something. And so, hmm, I will go to that. I'm making my decision based on that. That's when you know you are wrong. Every single time, that's when you know you are wrong. And you can know this before you make the decision because you feel the ecstasy, the opportunity for ecstasy, the joy, the pride, or the fear and the resentment and the anger and the hatred before you make the decision. So if you say, if I do this, I can get back at this person, I can um get my satisfaction, my vengeance, because this person treated me horribly in the past, and this is my opportunity to do that. That basis right now that you're clearly standing on, wrong. It will let you down, it has let you down every single time you listen to it, every time before. But if you can say, Yeah, you know, it would be really a great thrill to confront this person right here, right now, with the information I have, and to expose them as a liar right here, right. Now. But this wouldn't be good at all because there's this person here in the room who would be very much disappointed by that, to see this person that they have held in such high regard to be belittle so much. And that ultimately would it's just not the right thing to do, even though it would give me a great thrill. Reason is telling me, wait, um, if you do it like this, um, truth will still be told. This person will still uh be exposed in a sense, uh, meaning they will be removed from their position of where they were deceiving and lying. But it's not going to be in any dramatic fashion. I mean, it's going to be slower and more considered, and it's going to be through the pauper channels and through the pauper steps rather than me right here informally getting a thrill out of it. That's when you know you are on the basis of reason, on the basis of truth. In other words, are emotions present? Yes. And they can be present. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you can see it and if you can put them aside, and there's still enough reason to do the thing or to abstain from doing it, then you know that you're doing it on the basis of reason because you put the emotions aside, right? Or there aren't even any emotions. So many things in our lives are just logistical. And we say, I'm I'm hungry now, and you know, I can I can feel it. Okay, it's probably a good idea to eat now because I'm not going to be able to eat in the next four hours. There's no emotion to that whatsoever. And so you know it's it's pure reason. And other things are pure emotion. There's no reason whatsoever. And then you can say, This is pure emotion. I have no reason to do this. So to me, this is the guiding, practiceable thing in each moment to say to to be able to discern judgment from discernment. This is that to me. So as you said, as you pointed out really well, every single decision in our lives either doesn't even need to be made, we were just pushed into it, thinking that we need to act, we need to fight something, we need to fight for or against something. And in fact, we don't need to do any of that. There's no such thing as an illusion. Or truly, there does need to be a decision made. And in that case, we can rely on this, what I've just been saying, to make that decision, to aid us in it, to guide us in it. And uh this covers every single situation that we face in our lives. One of one of these two things, one of these two situations. And so um that kind of made me uh think of this. I'm I'm not sure if you're looking for this lengthy talk on this, but it made me think of that. And I think it's always a good thing to talk about the difference between judgment and discernment and how we may do that, especially in the heat of the moment.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:18

Yes, totally. I uh I kind of got lost in just listening to um what you were saying there. It it was it was really neat. It was more than what I could have asked for, um, I guess to put it. Um it was really nice. And it also like addressed something that I don't know. Whenever you say some say something that is practical, practiceable, um I always am really grateful for it because it's very simple and I don't know, easy to understand, I guess. And I'm I'm just I'm just grateful, and you don't need to feel uh any sort of way about it.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:15

Yeah, and I I I appreciate that because um uh as you are correctly identifying, we need things that are practiceable. Theory is is good and is fine to talk about and it makes us see things, right? But what is all the theory for? The the theory is for when the situation comes, when we're actually tested, so to speak, for the lack of a better word. What can we rely on then and there to be guided by all this theory, which is supposedly coming from truth, right? So how can we how can we actually live that way? We always this channel started this way, this whole thing started this way. Philosophy as a way of life, not as something we discuss and disagree on and and uh debate uh like they do in uh academics often or on on Reddit, uh things like that. No, this is supposed to show up in your experiences, it's supposed to make a difference. I mean, isn't that the whole point? It's supposed to make a difference, um, and a positive one too. And so this is how it goes. And and um I do want to ask you the question of the fortnight. You don't have to answer it. Maybe you didn't think about it and you just don't want to answer it. That's fine. Um, but uh I'll ask it to you and then you can answer or not answer. So the question of the fortnight is what is the very best thing you can do against ignorance in the world?

SPEAKER_04 2:17:48

Um I I did read um about the question of the fortnight. Uh I don't know if you can tell, but I I've been listening to a lot of your YouTube videos and it helped me a lot. Um but yeah, I think the very best thing that um you can do against the ignorance of the world is to be fine with it, I guess is to not be troubled to not what what is the point of think about it? You can you know react to it as it comes up to in your life, but I feel like it is pointless to to think about the ignorance of the world and to I guess uh in a way beat yourself up about it. So I said, yeah, that that is my answer.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:52

I appreciate it. That's you that's yet a a different take. And uh I like this approach which showed up uh when you first started speaking to some about the realization that so many things don't even need any of our interference, any of our doing, any of our solving or fixing. And you're right, uh, I think with many things that is uh seen as ignorance in the world, and we need to change and and do something about it. A lot of the things are just it doesn't need you to do it. And it you can just instead of being troubled by it, you can just accept it for what it is, not accept it as in um tell yourself it's all fine and it's a good thing. No, whatever it is, it is. It exists and it is there, and I accept it in the sense that I see it. I do not run from it, I do not run to it. Um I see it and I know it, and I and and it exists, and I do not repress or or change anything, I accept it. And sometimes just seeing things for what they truly are tells us everything that we need to do or need not do. And it already takes so much away from the so-called to-do list, right? We all have to-do lists, not only in our daily lives or when we go to the grocery store, but to-do lists on uh find out what God is, find out how to attain peace, um, find out how to overcome every single unwanted emotion and thought. This is a to-do list, too. And then uh everyone who's ignorant, so to speak, either actively going against these things or just not understanding, realizing these things, they become our enemy. They say, this person is not even looking for peace, they're not even trying to understand anything, they're so ignorant. And that's a problem to me. Why? Why is that a problem to you? It's not a problem to you. If it is a problem at all, it is a problem to them, for them. And so I think you're absolutely right. Um, thank you. And uh I appreciate you coming here. I'm gonna just move you back to the audience real quick because we're uh running out of time. But I want to say uh thank you for being here. Welcome, first of all. This is your first time. You said that you are here. Welcome, what a beautiful thing. And I hope that you enjoyed it in the truest sense that you uh find that it has uh lived up, so to speak, to its name, which is kinship, right? That you feel that you are among kin here, um, not as an identity, not as a belonging, not as a group kind of thing, but just to say, wow, my nature is reason. My nature is awareness. And um I find that there's a lot of awareness and and reason going on here. Uh so if you can say that, that's uh that's a lovely thing to uh be a part of and to uh be able to see, because we're all looking for that, right? We're all looking for that place where my gosh, finally awareness and reason pervades rather than this unawareness and this treating each other in a reckless manner, right? And so uh welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you for speaking. And uh if you ever wish to do it again, you are very welcome again. This is uh, as I said before, this is a resource to all of us to come here and to speak, ask, disagree, uh, bring forward our confusions, whatever it may be, whatever it may be, there is no expectation either. And I think this week I'm gonna do something uh out of the ordinary by not answering my by not giving my answer to the question of the Fortnite this week simply because we've had so many great conversations. Um, I don't want to add to that. I just want to leave it for what it is because there has been a strong so-called theme here that we've been discussing this whole time. And I just want to leave it at that. And uh, we didn't even get to ask the question of the fortnight to um um a lot of our speakers here, and we were just occupied with something else, which is beautiful. You know, that reality goes a certain way. We do not, we do not try to push and pull the river of reality. It flows wherever it flows. And I feel like this week it didn't uh flow that much into the question of the Fortnite, which I a hundred percent not only accept, but welcome. It is so beautiful to be swept away, you to have a certain plan and then to be swept away by something else that is so beautiful. And I think that's what happened here this week. And so I'm just gonna leave it at that, and then we'll we'll talk more about the question of the Fortnite next week, and then I will also give my answer to it then. All your problems, all your desires, all your worries, entrust it to reality. Give it to reality, it knows what to do with it, it always has. Reality has never stuttered, reality has never been stuck, it always moves forward, and so uh this is why I'm telling you, it is crucial and at the same time not at all important that you come here and speak. And um, or listen if that's what you need to do, what you feel you need to do.