Hate can smile too

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I want to thank you for being here and committed to letting go of everything that is making the thoughts heavy, the actions in life heavy, and getting rid of everything that is seeking a thrill, seeking an escape, a distraction from this perceived heaviness, to realize that in fact there is nothing heavy in reality, nothing heavy in experience and truth, and that everything that makes it seem so can be let go of by the help of philosophy, by the help of reason, by the help of truth and love. We need not know everything there is to know. In fact, we will never know. All we need to do is to open ourselves up to truth and to love, and everything will be known for us. Life takes care of life.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Today I wanted to talk about my confusion on honesty and um what I've come to uh a conclusion about it. I've realized that there's a difference, a big difference, between honesty and giving in to your desires. When I when I say the word desire, a lot of things might come into mind, a lot of things, a lot of obvious things, a lot of things like anger, a lot of things like a desire to be pleasured, or the desire to be distracted, or the desire, all of these desires, which is apparent, which is noticeable, but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the subtle ones that we think is or I think that I thought is just the right thing to do, the things that I wanted to do, but it wasn't. I was not looking at reality, I was looking at a fantasy. I was imagining I was imagining what would happen if I do that. What would happen if I do that? Not logistically. I was I was blinded by the possibility. I knew I knew that was not a guarantee, I knew that was not a surefire, but still I was like, oh, maybe this could happen. So I'm just going to do this without considering, without looking at reality, without acknowledging what is, without acknowledging what is certain, what is happening.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

And I and I acted.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I acted thinking it was honest. Thinking I was honest. Um thinking me doing that has brought good, doing that has brought. But then really quickly, reality slapped me in the face. And I thought I had no expectations, but the consequence made me realize oh, I was unaware because this is not what I wanted. So clearly I was unaware of something. I was unaware of something.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

I was blinded by something, and it was my desire, a subtle desire, a subtle desire to be right, a subtle desire to be brave.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

But it was not bravery, it was just um me acting without considering. That's not bravery to me. That's not bravery. These subtle desires uh now I have to really keep an eye out. Um, but once I've seen them, they're gone. Because it doesn't, you know, as you usually say, uh when it's once it's spotted, it has no power anymore. A lot of these were also led by hate. I sometimes forget that hate smiles too. Hate gets excited, hate gets happy. Hate hate can have positive feelings too. You can feel positive while being hate hate while being filled with hatred. Sometimes I forget that. And I miss um and I miss uh and I confuse that with being honest, being me, being true to myself. No, yeah, if I'm true to myself, then I would look at reality. And then consider and then discern. Not not look at a fantasy that I want to happen. And then do what I think will lead to that. Yeah, that that's um that's all I wanted to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

By saying that that's all you wanted to talk about, you have talked about all. Because this is everything. Right? And I think you are seeing this, you call it subtle, but you even being able to discern the subtle thing means it's now obvious to you. And this is what we keep talking about. The subtle must become obvious, the complicated must become simple. Because once something is obvious and simple, there is no temptation towards it. When we say uh, you know, simple, simple physical example, if you're addicted to a substance or even to just a behavior, once the destructiveness of that, the unnecessity of that, the unreasonable nature of that, once that becomes obvious and simple, it has no power. Once we know exactly, this is what they, for example, talk about in addiction. This is why people say, uh, let's say, people who used to be addicted to alcohol, they understand now they cannot have a single sip of anything. How simple is this? But when the person who used to be addicted or is addicted to alcohol, when when they first start um to get off of it because they're saying, I'm literally dying. The doctor is telling me this is out of control, I'm penniless because of it. Everything, you know, I can clearly see this needs to stop. Uh, but it's so how can I do it? I don't even, I can't even imagine a life without the substance anymore. And it's completely taken. I don't know how I'm gonna do without this, right? And it feels so complicated and everything is so subtle, so easy to miss. But gradually you learn, um, you come off the addiction, you say, hmm, you know, I haven't had a single drink in eight months. If I can go eight months without a single drink, surely I can have one drink a week or every couple of weeks. If I have the discipline and the control to go eight months without a single drink, surely I can handle one or two drinks a week. And so to a lot of people, this happens. They say, ah, on my birthday, on my this or that. I can I can do that. I'm in control now. And and they come up with these complicated narratives. You know, I can have it then, I can have it then, and uh this will be fine. And then I can just counteract that with et cetera, et cetera. They come up with these intricate plans of how they can still um have the substance without supposedly any of the ill effects. And then they have that one or two drink, and maybe that goes okay for a few weeks, but they're thinking about it more and more, and before you know it, you're back to your full capacity, to your full drinking. And then eventually, if one can recover from that once again, which is never guaranteed, right? It seems they understand the simple fact, simple fact. I cannot have a drop of it anymore. There's no good in it whatsoever. It is not possible. What's simpler than that? Someone can say, well, what about this type of drink? How about this dosage? How about in these circumstances we come with these come elaborate scenarios and substances and and dosages in which it might be fine? Uh-uh. This is all complicated, this is all subtlety. Because it is easy to miss that if the substance itself is the problem, how could it ever be that I can still have the substance and I'll be somehow fine? This subtle this seems like a subtle thing, but it is actually the core of everything, right? This this was the problem to begin with. And so this simple fact finally becomes obvious, and this complicated, these complicated scenarios finally drop off, and simplicity remains. I cannot have a single drop. Don't even think about it. No need to think about it. There's no scenario in which I can have any of it in any way. Simple. And what you are seeing is the same thing. What you are seeing is thrill seeking. Because you are looking to get a thrill. And then, and when I say you, I mean all of us, of course, because this is an entirely human thing. We are looking for a thrill. We go into our imagination and we say, wouldn't that be exciting? Wouldn't that be amazing? If I did this brave act, wouldn't that be so edifying to so many people and such a good example? And uh I would also feel so much better about myself. Wouldn't that be great? Imagination all the time. And coming up with scenarios and making, trying to make that scenario happen. And just like you said, we call that bravery because we say, ooh, you know, yeah, this is a thrill to me, but also this could be seen as bravery. So that could be my passage into doing justifying this action, even though I'm not looking to be brave, I'm really looking to get a thrill. Or honesty, as you also said, right? Ooh, I'll just, I'll, I'll do this very honest thing. And technically it's gonna cost me money, it's gonna hurt me a little bit in those kinds of ways. But so-and-so will be there. And if I do that and stand up and be honest, then I will demonstrate my honesty to them, and that will actually gain me a thrill, among other things. And so we say, oh, it's just honesty. We're supposed to be honest, right? And brave and fair. And so I'll do all these things. But really, what we're trying to do is get a thrill. This is all thrill seeking. And so this is what the ego is interested in. The ego wants to do something special, something important. It wants to get a thrill. Uh, we hear all the time of people who jump from planes with parachutes or drive really fast or do all kinds of things for a thrill. And I'm not saying those things are necessarily wrong. If you do it with the intention of getting a thrill out of it, it is wrong. Anything is wrong. But if you if you're doing it for some other purpose, right, then uh it's not necessarily wrong. But what they always say, people who do do it as a thrill, um, they say, wow, that made me feel so alive. They even call themselves adrenaline junkies. They're not really adrenaline junkies, they're thrill junkies. And thrill junkies, we all are. We all are. There's no one in the world who does not have the capacity to feel a thrill and who was not at some point intoxicated by that. And in fact, most people spend most of their time chasing thrills. And they only wrap it into honesty, bravery, into uh being having a lot of integrity or being generous, benevolent, all these things. It's only a way to justify it to the reasonable part of the mind that says, look, uh, you're just getting high off of something. You're just an addict. There's nothing virtuous about this. And you know, in your calm moments, in your rational moments, you know that to live according to truth, to live according to stillness, peace, beauty is your true nature. And this thrill seeking is only a distraction, it is only junky behavior, it is a passing thing, it is a changing thing, it is an unstable thing. But beauty, peace, justice, uh uh there's nothing more stable than peace. That that is what uh defines peace, that is the nature of peace, stability. Change can happen within peace. But just as uh change is an unchanging thing in the fact that change is always there, peace can be uh can have change within it, and does have change with it. Peace is not afraid of anything, but it itself has a stability, a steadiness to it. So the rational mind knows this. But the ego says, look how alive this made you feel. Look at this. This is so special, this is so amazing. And so we have to justify it to the rational part of the mind, but we also need this throw. And so we come up with these things that you are observing that you have beautifully said, I think much better than I am, actually trying to put it right now, because um, this is the subtle thing about it. Yes, you are right. The thing that you're doing is an honest thing. You are telling the truth. And yes, the thing you are doing is a brave thing because it requires a lot of courage. You are right. But that is not your actual motive. You are only using bravery, you're only using honesty, you're only using uh fairness, um, whatever it is that you're using, to get a thrill. And deep inside one knows this. But it's subtle, as you said. This knowing is subtle. The thrill is so exciting and it's so moving everywhere, and it's and it's so colorful and uh so energetic. And this little tiny knowledge that is always there, that has no frills about it, it does not say, hey, look at me, look at me. No, it says I don't need anything, right? It's just it's just there, stable. That one is there, but that one in comparison to the moving around one seems so subtle because we are dazzled by thrills. That's what thrills are, they're dazzling. And so we are people who spend Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday looking for looking forward to a thrill that will happen on Saturday or Sunday. And even on Saturday, we wake up, 7 a.m. The thrill is still five hours away. So even then, we're not in the moment. For those five hours, we're still living in the future, and then the thrill comes, and thrills cannot last long. That's the whole point of a thrill. It's an explosion, it's it's amazing, it's dazzling, but it's like a firework show. It's only five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes, two hours, let's say, the biggest firework show in the world ever created. Let's say it was two hours, and so then it's 1 p.m. and the thrill is over. And then we go back into okay, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, friends. And to get through that non-thrilling reality, we go back into our imagination. Oh, isn't this going to be amazing? Wouldn't this be amazing? Could this not be amazing? Was this not amazing? And we're constantly looking to enhance, enhance the present moment because in comparison to the thrill, it's so calm, it's so still. Rather than see the stability in that, all we see is the lack of fireworks. We look at a beautiful valley, still, just a little bit swaying in the wind. And instead of sitting down on that and feeling the rock, the bedrock below that, we are looking at the sky and saying, nothing's happening. What a good venue this would be for a great fireworks show. But the fireworks show is not here. And so this is boring. And so, how can I enhance it? Ooh, I could a nice drink would be really good right now. Get a little bit of a buzz, or take some kind of substance and start to see colors. As if the full spectrum of colors are not already in front of you. Or they say, hmm, I I could invite a bunch of people. No fireworks still, but at least we'll have a lot of conversation, a lot of gossip, a lot of news, a lot of exciting things. Someone might be ill and we can uh pretend that we care for them so much and give them food and prepare them, give put a blanket around them and signal our um honesty or loving nature to other people, get a thrill from that. Thrills are everywhere for the thrill seeker. Thrills are everywhere. But we realize that thrill seeking, number one, is an unreal thing, and number two, outside of the thrill, which is 99.9% of the time, we are living in the past or in the future, wherever the thrill is or was or will be. And so this thrill seeking needs to stop. But the ego is the ultimate thrill seeker, it uses memory, imagination, judgment, and speculation and uh emotions, it chases emotions, all these things. And so what you are calling subtle is not so subtle now to you at all. You're seeing this different, these two different camps. There's no real separation, there are no categories as such, but we can think of it that way. Well, we're seeing the so-called side of the ego and the the you, what you really are, you know, the not ego. The ego is the not you, and the you is the not ego, I guess. And and we're seeing to what purpose imagination is used there and memory is used there, and expectations, judgments, opinions, beliefs, speculation. And as this is becoming more obvious, as you are also saying, this is why I loved what you said, because everything is in it, you are losing interest in all these things because they have become or are becoming at least obvious and simple to you. This is why you're losing interest in them. You don't you are not fighting them. You are not checking yourself into a clinic to get away from them. You are not paying for protection from them. You are not on the run. You did not change your identity, you did not get a new passport to run from these things. These things are still coming, they're in front of you every day, but you're seeing they cannot touch me. I could go grab them and make them uh attach myself to them, but I have no interest because what they are, what they do, has become obvious and simple to me. Nothing subtle and complicated about it anymore. And um I've seen you do this journey, right? You've been coming here a while, and you're constantly reporting these things, and you're showing these things, and you're living these things, and I hope everyone is seeing that here. And uh this is you will be the first one to say, I believe, that this is not a special thing that you're doing, that you are not so privileged or talented or skilled that only you can do this, or a few people can do this. But I think you will be the first to say that everyone and anyone can and should do this, that you would advise them to do it, you would recommend it. And so, what are we waiting for? When we are seeing these living examples, and by the way, Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, these people are living examples too in that sense, even though they're not alive. If all these people can do it, what makes you think that you can't do it? Oh, but that was Socrates. That was Jesus as literally the Son of God. No, here among us, people are doing it. The excuses are running out, the problems are fading away, and the perceived inability is breaking down. And so this is becoming inevitable. And it has already become inevitable for you. So thank you very much for sharing that here, for being a living example and also showing that one can do this without being a prophet, without being a monk, without being this or that, that anyone and everyone can do this. This message at some point will ring with people, even if we think we're still not able or deserving of this. Some people think they might be able, but they're not deserving of this somehow. We are all sinners, uh, in the sense that we thought about ourselves that way at some point. But all these people whom we look up and say, look, he can do it, she can do it, he has done it, she has done it. Those people were like us too. But now they all of a sudden they're not sinners. How did that happen? So thank you very much. This is uh extremely valuable.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

And uh I would like to uh you can add whatever you want to add if there's something still, but I also want to ask you the question of the fortnight if you would like. I'll ask it. You don't have to respond. You can just say, I I don't I'm not ready to respond to that yet. But our question of the fortnight for the two weeks, a fortnight, or two weeks, is are you perfect?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

I I would like to answer that, but before that, I would um also w like to add that you said that very beautifully. Um I couldn't agree more. And this is just my my opinion. Um I I don't know this for a fact, but I think people the whether or not they do this, whatever I'm doing, um it's just I feel they want to or not. And like you said uh in your past videos, people choose to suffer. They choose they choose to do that, which is crazy. When I first heard that, I was like, what? But the more I look around, the more I observe, the more I realize that how true that is. How people bathe in it, how people soak themselves in it, like literally, how they extract joy from their suffering, from how they feel like.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Why would they do that, you think? Why do they choose suffering?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

I think I used to do that, but now that I I I've um I guess uh uh because I don't know how to put it, become aware, I forgot. I forgot, I used to do that. I don't know why I did it. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

We were just talking about it. I think I think there's a there's this like sense of it's a thrill, yeah. It's a thrill, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 26:09

There is there is no greater thrill than suffering. No greater thrill. It is the most special and important you can be. It is the most distinction you can achieve. And the ego loves distinction, importance, specialty. You hear all the time people saying, These are regular people. I'm not even talking about uh Holocaust survivors or anything like that. I'm talking about regular people who constantly you can hear them say, If you knew what I've been through. Or they'll say, You can't even imagine what I've been through. Imagine saying that to someone, like a regular human being, someone who grew up in your country, in your culture, in your general circumstances, say, You can't even imagine what I've been through. There's no greater thrill than to say that, to be able to say that in one's mind. Because what can I not imagine? What has happened to you as a human being in your human experience that I, as another human being, could not even imagine. No such thing. But it's more dramatic to say it that way. And drama, once again, is thrill. Every single thing that is dramatic is thrilling. Give me a single example. Anyone ever also listening to this recording, I'm always open to it. Email me. Is can you think of a single example that is dramatic, something that is dramatic, drama, that is not also thrilling? These two go hand in hand. So when people uh shed tears too, as they say, is they're making it more dramatic, they're making it more thrilling. We all say, ah, so much drama going on in my life. I'm so sick and tired of it. To be able to say, there's so much drama, so much, so many things going on in my life, I'm sick and tired of it. That is the thrill. This is the payoff for them. They're as the notification on their phone appears, before they look at it, they're half hoping it is a rude text from someone. They're half hoping for it. So that they can look at it and then immediately say, Oh, can you believe to the person they're with? Can you believe? Look at this text. Look at this email I just got from my boss. Can you believe they're asking me to do this? But last week when I stayed late, oh, that was that was not seen, that was not recognized. But now they're sending a group email praising this person for something much less important that they did. Can you believe this? This is suffering, right? This is our daily form of suffering. We don't always need to go to war and sickness and disease and all this. Is our daily suffering. And so they say, Oh, gossiping is, you know, actually a good thing because in society people bond by gossiping, by exchanging these. Natural does not mean good. Right? And so we say, Oh, it's okay that I gossip. Once again, trying to make something unreasonable, something thrilling, uh, conform to reason, at least on the surface level, we say, but it's healthy to do this, you know, it's a it's it's that's how society works. Are we not living in a society? So these this reasoning does not withstand one single why question, not a single one. But most people do not ask that why because the one who is being told this is also a thrill seeker. So yeah, you're you're right. I'm gonna live in society. Yeah, yeah, let's go ahead. Misery is the ultimate thrill. And uh of course, pain is real. But as we always say, pain is mandatory, uh, suffering is optional. Because uh, we can even, you know, sometimes I go places, restaurants, cafes, whatever, and just I I'm not looking to uh listen to the next table's conversation, but it just so happened that they're so loud. Thrill-seeking people, dramatic people, also happen to be loud people, if you've ever noticed, because loudness is drama as well as dramatic. And so you hear these conversations sometimes, you'd think that they would they have survived the Holocaust. Where where we whereas we actually read Holocaust survivors uh stories, such as Viktor Frankel, and he's less dramatic, he is less miserable in the Holocaust than these people are at a cafe on a Sunday in the richest country in the world. So, what is that? What is that? Why would anyone want that? Okay, the Holocaust is something that happens to you, it comes to it comes in your country, you cannot escape it. It comes to you, it happens, okay. But what is this going out of our way to take offense? Um see the other day, not the other day, this was months ago. Um the this this idea just came to me. This is again reception. This is again not imagination. I didn't go into imagination to think about this. I was just open, right? Not in my imagination. That's why it came to me. Simple, simple sentence. Uh anger is what we get to do when we are wronged. Anger is what we get to do when we are wronged. Isn't this what we do when we're thrill seekers? We are half hoping for someone to anger us, some someone to wrong us, so that we can get angry. So we're gonna say, how dare you, or some, or we can witness uh someone else being wronged, and then we can go stand up for them. This is yet another thrill. To observe wrongdoings and say, stop, I am here. How dare you, this and that. You go do you do this, I I'm calling you out for this behavior. This is not acceptable. This is a thrill. And so anger is something we get to do when we are wronged. So anger, hate, which you also talked about, misery, suffering, all of these things are opportunities for the thrill seeker. Opportunities, and so if someone is a thrill seeker and drama, which generally lives in misery and suffering, um is found, of course. The thrill seeker is going towards misery, towards suffering, towards drama because they're a thrill seeker. So, in this exact way, people choose to be miserable. In this exact way, misery is a choice. What can be anyway. And this is what we all do. This is not something hypothetical, this is not a theory, this is not, we're not talking about someone else, we're talking about all ourselves right here. Everyone has done this, is doing this, perhaps. And so, what we're trying to do here is to see this, how we are choosing misery every single day. We look out for it, we call it, we are excited when it comes our way. Does it take uh a PhD to see that this is unhealthy behavior? Oh, but it's natural behavior because everyone's doing it. This is yet another justification to the thrill seeker. It's natural. Everyone does it. No one's perfect. And uh this can sound complicated, this can sound subtle. Let us bring it down to the simplicity to the obvious level. If you want to know, if despite the fact that what you are doing is also honest, also brave, also reasonable, also logical, also natural, if you are nevertheless a thrill seeker and if you are destroying yourself by doing that, if you want to know this in the moment, any moment, immediately and without a shadow of the doubt, look inside and say, Am I excited by this? Am I excited about the prospect of being doing something honest, something brave? Am I excited by it? If so, I'm a thrill seeker. Yes, I am also honest in this action in this particular way, but that is not the only motivation, and it is not even the main motivation. If there is even a tinge of excitement within you, you are doing perhaps the right thing for the wrong reason. And so, really, you're doing a wrong thing. This is how people do charity. We just talked about charity in the beginning, right? We we talked about our donations to the Donkey Rescue Sanctuary before we started the episode. And um, because I made a call and the and many of you donated to our donkey rescue sanctuary, which is a beautiful thing to do. But if as you were giving that donation, if you got a thrill from it, if you said, ooh, I am doing something charitable right now, I am doing something beautiful, I am helping to rescue donkeys. If there was, I'm not saying this was all of you, but there if there was any part of this in that, then you were thrill seeking. You were doing a right thing for the wrong reasons. Vice versa. Has it not so many times in your life happened where you gave some resources, some time, some attention to something? Because you you you this just makes sense. This this is a no-brainer. This is healthy, this is right, this is correct, this is proper. I have 10, I could give two. And you just did it without even thinking about it in any other way. You did not go a step further. Because do you not do this all the time? There, you are not thrill-seeking. So you know the difference. You do know that everyone knows the difference. This is another uh resistance, point of resistance, an excuse where we say, Oh, but but how do I do that? Not everyone can do that, not everyone can recognize these things. Everyone can and does recognize it. There are so many right and proper things we do that are boring to us, not thrilling, not exciting to us, but we do them anyway. Why do we do it then? Because it's right and proper, period. Not right and proper, and also so dramatic and exciting and thrilling. As soon as you feel within yourself, and only you can feel this within yourself, no one else can do this for you. If you watch for that, if you listen to that, you will see it every single time. And you will say, No, then I will not do the honest thing, I will not do the brave thing, because it is not really honest and brave. I'm ruining it. I am not right and proper myself, and so will I abstain from it. I will tell I would do the opposite what the thrill is telling me to do. And this is how we take thrill out of our lives. Because we want to do the charity. We are right, reasonable, proper, honest, beautiful people, our spirit, our nature. We want to do the charity. But there's also this inside of us that we have allowed the thrill. And so until the thrill is gone, the charity is not to be engaged with. We can tell ourselves, I'm not telling anyone to do this. For myself, I do it like this. I say, I don't get to do it then. This person that I am, not the so-called true self, but this person that I am, does not get to engage in charity because charity is a physical thing. It's not a logistical thing, it's not a spiritual uh true self thing anyway, right? Your true nature, that which you truly are, is interested in charity just because it's the natural, right, and proper thing to you. But it's nevertheless not something that touches the spirit. So until then, I'm not going to engage in this. And there will be this nature inside of us will keep calling, but you are made for charity. This is your nature. But the thrill is holding me back. It's not really holding me back. I'm deciding to let it be seen. I'm deciding for it to boil. I'm seeing it asking for things and crying for it, and I'm just not gonna give it until it exhausts itself, until it, until it passes out. And once it has done so, once it's all passed out and gone, say now I can go back to my charity. Because now, in fact, for the first time, it is charity. Before it was not charity, before it was an ego trip, before it was a thrill-seeking experience. And so this is what you've shown us today. This was in what you were saying. I was trying to uh bring it out this whole time by speaking about it. You know, sometimes it takes a while for the sort of the words to come for it, but this is really uh what I was seeing in it from the beginning as you were talking about it, and I really wanted everyone to see it and to make it obvious, right? It was already in what you're saying, and it was obvious to you and simple to you, and that's fantastic. That's beautiful for you. Uh, but I really wanted to make sure uh we can do as much as possible to bring it out for for it to become obvious and simple to everyone. If we do the right thing for the wrong reason, uh it's the wrong thing, right? And this is all in what you're saying, and yes, uh suffering, uh misery is the greatest thrill there ever was for humanity. There's no greater thrill than suffering to the ego. There's no greater thrill than misery. We look out for it, we want it, we love it. We love it until we realize that the one who's loving it is not us, that we're just identifying with that one. So thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Once again, I've uh I've got I've gone another practical lesson from you. Um is to starve that. I don't get to do that, I don't get to give in to my thrills. I've I I'm gonna be completely honest to everyone here. Don't uh if you're s if you see me as like this person who figured it out, this person who uh is uh engaging in this and have seen all of these things and know these things. Uh oh okay. They they probably live a different life than I do. No, absolutely not. I I have I'm nowhere close. I'm nowhere close to it. I'm I'm taking baby steps each day. Each day. Just a moment ago, I was thrill thinking. Just a moment ago, I was whining to my mom about my work, about my workplace. And then I acknowledged it, but I I I feel like a lot of a lot of people or may listen, let's not even talk about people. Me, my entire life, have thought that I can just think my way to doing. Oh, if I I if I think if I know what's right, if I know what's wrong, I can just do what's right and do what's wrong. No. Overthinking only take you to so far. Thinking, thinking is just thoughts. I I recently learned this, but um maybe it's wrong, maybe it's but uh currently I believe it, and currently it's a mindset that I uh truly agree in is that you do your way into thinking. None of these matter, none of this matter. But none of this matter to your true self. But I I just want everybody to know that I'm nowhere near what kind of image you have of me. I'm I'm a normal poor person, just like any every single one of you. And I'm just trying my hardest to do every single day, dedicate myself to do these things without with despite whatever I feel about it. Each day taking a a step a step. And maybe one day I can just run. Right, but till then I gotta build it. This person, this small person, this person of mine gotta build his way up. Well it it is obvious enough to him, but he's still fall. He still he still made mistakes. And yeah. And this this right. This thing that I'm talking about. Also c go with the uh question of a Fortnite. Am I perfect? No, I'm not. My true self might be. And in reality.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

But look, there's no such thing. Uh this is what I this is when I point out. Uh, you're giving us the opportunity. I see this in the chat so many times as well. When we say my true self.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

If you are the true self, you're the true self. There's no such thing as my true self. My true self and my false self, and my this part of me and that part of me. Who? Who are we talking about? The true self thing is not an individuality. Right? There are so many ways to talk about this. Some people also say there is no self. To me, this is all the same realization. We we can call that the true self, we can call that there is no self, we can call we we can say whatever we want. There some people call it the soul, and then some people say there is a soul, there is no soul. This is this this is all words, these are all pointers. But as soon as we say my true self or my no-self, then we are still identifying with something. We are still believing in a mental construct. You were just talking about thoughts, right? This is also thoughts. Let me look at so many. Ah, so many. This I just remind uh was reminded of this. Some people also talk about the higher self. We hear this all the time, right? Uh so I was about to do this, but then uh my higher self spoke to me, or I listened to my higher self, and and then I knew better. No such thing. No such thing as a higher self, your higher self, your lower self, your true self, your no self, your this self, no such thing. This is all a mental construct. I mean, the thoughts are real, the construct is real, but it is not you. So to say my higher self, my true self, my false self, this is all we have to be careful about this because you can say true self, you can talk about the true self, you can talk about the no self. But these are just words, they're pointers. And so we have to intuit, we have to uh discern if we are speaking, if we are using these pointers in the right way or the wrong way, because pointers are not inherently right or wrong, good or bad. Uh, pointers are just pointers. What are they pointing to? The same pointer can be used to point at something else, the same wooden stick can point at this or this, right? And so when we say my true self, we are once again identifying with something. And I want to ask you this also. When you say uh I am advancing every day a little bit, I want to ask you this. When you um when you are a thrill seeker and you don't realize you're a thrill seeker, but then you realize that you have been thrill seeking. And then it you still continue to thrill seek, but eventually it becomes so obvious and so simple to you this information, this fact, and what it's doing uh in your life, that you drop it. Do you go do you go from being a thrill seeker to a non-thrill seeker? Or do you merely recognize your true nature, which you have been all along, which is not that of the thrill seeker? Which one is it?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

It's it's most definitely the latter when I realize that this is not me.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

So is this not irrefutable that you did not turn, you did not make yourself, you did not change yourself, you did not take some parts out and put some parts in and made yourself into a different thing. You merely recognized reality, you merely recognized truth. I was never this. I was never this. One can thrill seek without truly ever having been a thrill seeker, because that which you truly are, again, whatever that is, then the no-self, the true self, the whatever that is, and it whatever it isn't, this I am inside of you, this being, this awareness, that one can identify with things. Because that one, even though it has a universal background, even though it is the same thing looking out of billions of eyes, figuratively and and literally, that one is universal. That one is looking out of everyone's eyes, but the one that is looking out of your eyes can can get also identified with the things that it with the things that it is looking at, or the things that is looking out of when people identify with their bodies, when they say, This is me, then they are not recognizing in many ways that they are uh what they are looking out of is not them. That one truly, though, that is looking out of your eyes and my eyes and everyone else's eyes, and unborn eyes, was that one ever a thrill seeker? And if that one never was a thrill seeker, how can we say I became this? How can we say I became a better person? I became a person who no longer thrill seeks, I've freed myself, I've become better. How can we say this? Isn't it rather a recognition of what has always been the case, what will always be the case in many ways? And if this is a recognition rather than a making oneself, a becoming, then aren't all things allowed? Can't we look at other people who are thrill seeking and know that they are not thrill seekers? They don't need to stop thrill seeking for us to know that their so-called true self has nothing to do with thrills and thrill seeking. And so they never have to become anything for themselves or for us. And this is my question when I say are you perfect? Because whom are we talking about? Are we talking about the person, the person of you who complains to their mother still about their job? Is that you? Or are we talking about the one who is looking out of your eyes? Who's looking out of your eyes but is not the eyes? Who is hearing but is not the ears?

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Because I all of these things that you were pointing out are very obvious to me that they're not me. But I'm I'm confused because I decided to do these things. So is who's making those decisions?

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Is it the identified you have identified with the thought construct that makes that decision? You see what I mean? Um for example, it it is a thought construct that I don't know, uh French people eat snails. Okay, this is a thought. It can be a fact, it can be information, right? But it's a thought nonetheless. And then another thought is there are certain animals that you just don't eat. It's gross to eat certain animals. These two thoughts come together, and another thought is born that French people are doing something disgusting. So now we have a third thought. Two independent thoughts came together, created a third, and perhaps a fourth and a hundred more thoughts. And that is a construct, that is a cluster of thoughts that are drawing other thoughts to each other. Just like when planets are formed, right? The gravity, the hot mess of an initial planet, it's it gets bigger and it draws more little rocks to it, little objects to it. And the planet becomes bigger and bigger, right? Its gravity increases and it pulls more thoughts into it. That's a thought construct. And then we identify with that thought construct, and then we say, I think French people are disgusting. They eat snails, they do this, they do that. And then someone points out to us that they're just they're the same exact human being as you are, chemically and in every other way. And it is really culture that makes us eat one thing and not the other. We eat things that other people don't eat. We don't eat snails, but we eat this. And then the more we see differences, the more we see different thought constructs, so-called cultures and things like that. We see, wow, it is really kind of subjective. Like if I had grown up in France, I'd probably or I would have a much higher chance of eating snails. And that would not be gross to me at all. And something that is not gross to me now is gross to someone interesting. So, what does this mean? Whoever is is is this, this awareness, this consciousness, that one can be placed into anybody and is placed into anybody. There's no difference between the awareness, the consciousness, the whatever the spirit is in a French person, so-called whatever. That's not the only thing that makes them a person, but uh, that one is no different than me. I have different preferences, different opinions, different beliefs. So that's different. What is the same? What is the same? What cannot be any different? That's the same awareness. Whatever is looking out of their eyes is looking out of my eyes. So which one am I? Am I the thought cluster that was able to form because I live in this culture and this thought cluster could not have formed in this other culture? So am I this thought cluster, and this other person is this other thought cluster, and we're two different things? Or are we the space, the space in which different thought clusters form or can form? Which one are we? And this space within which this thought cluster exists, it is easy because the space cannot see itself. You cannot see yourself. Even when you look in a mirror, this is scientific now, this is just simple physical fact. Even when you're looking in a mirror, you're not looking at yourself. You're looking at the reflection of your face. You are not the reflection. So, truly, in the true sense, you are never looking at yourself, even physically. And this is what I'm talking about, is not physical. Try to see yourself. Turn around. Turn around from all these senses that are going outside. My vision is going out as seeing the wall in my room. I cannot turn my eyes around and see myself. I cannot hear myself. I'm hearing my voice, I'm not hearing myself. The senses don't go in, the senses go out. We have no ingoing senses. So try to see yourself. You cannot. And so this is why some people say there is no self. Some people say uh there is a true self, but this is the truth. No, no, this is the truth. Why, if if there is a thing or there is no thing, why can we not just say look at it and say, Here it is? What what's all this arguing for? It's because we cannot see ourselves, the the again, the true self or whatever it is. And so we try to estimate or we try to see what it is by seeing what it is not. And so that leads us to different conclusions. Fine. But the thoughts, the opinions, the beliefs are something that are seen. They are not inside, they are outside. Just like any other thing that I perceive, I perceive thoughts. And so, since I cannot see myself, but I can see other things, I am constantly looking at am I this or am I this? Am I this or am I that? This is how people come to say, I used to be this person, but now I am the person that knows that. I used to be a thrill seeker, but now I'm a peaceful, reasonable, calm person. How can you be different people? How can you be multiple people? We talked about this before when people say, one part of me thinks this, but this other part of me knows that that's not true. But then there's this other part of me who says that it might be true in this particular other way that I never thought. How many people are you? How many parts are you? When they say this part of me thinks this, this part of me thinks this, they are talking about thought constructs. There's a thought construct that advises this, thinks this, operates in this way, and then there's another one. And then because we're identifying with thoughts, we are saying this part of me is saying this, this part of me is saying this. Neither one of these ones are you, you are not your thoughts. And so the one who is trying to become, the one who is not at all perfect, but doing their best and getting better every day, and sometimes slipping up, but on the whole, really making good progress. That is the thought of progress. It is a cluster of information, of thoughts. I used to engage in this kind of behavior. True, it is true. You used to, okay. And now I engage in this kind of now. I see that this is true. So these are two thought constructs. And yes, it's great that you in your mind are going, are choosing this thought construct over this one. It's genuinely, objectively a healthier, truer, um, stable, more stable thought construct than this other one. So we let go of these beliefs, these opinions, and we go. But neither one of them are you. You are the one seeing the thought constructs, and you are even the one who's identifying with those thought constructs. But you can identify with whatever you want, you will never be it. And so when you say I am the one getting better, you are identifying with a thought construct that is objectively a better set of ideas, uh, opinions, beliefs, than another set. But you are neither this nor that set of thoughts. You're identifying with thoughts. Same with emotions. My whole life used to be pain. My whole life used to be disappointment and resentment. Now I am all love. Now I'm all kindness. Now I'm all acceptance. These are emotion clusters, which are also thoughts, of course. So this is a person who is identifying with their emotions. Is the self an emotion? Is the self a feeling? Is the self a mood? Or is it the one that perceives moods? Oh, I'm feeling a little grumpy today. And it's fine to say this in language, I am feeling grumpy. In fact, there's nothing wrong with it because I am feeling. It doesn't say I am grumpy in the sense that um I am grumpiness itself. We're not saying that, right? I am grumpy. Okay, but am I grumpiness? Am I that emotion? And so when we identify with thoughts and emotions, we can have parts. We can be a person and then be another person. And then we can be this kind of person to this person, but another kind of person to this group of people. I ask, how is this possible? This is identification with thoughts. But you can see these thoughts. And then you can ask yourself who's speaking? When I'm complaining, when I am of the opinion that I am oppressed by right now, by something, by a job, by a boss, by a friend. So-called friend. I thought they were my friend, but now they're doing this right. All we have to say, who's speaking? It's a thought cluster, it's a mental construct that says, This is friendship, this is this person, this is what they're doing, this goes against this, therefore, this, I must do this. I told them that, but they nevertheless did this. We're building a construct. And now I identify with that construct and I say, I am an abandoned person who used to be so kind and gentle to this friend, and we thought we had an agreement, but then they did this, and it's an I am that, I am this, you are not this. Yes, all of that happened, but you are not it. This is another subtlety. This is another thing that once it becomes simple and obvious, and it becomes obvious because it is simple, it becomes simple because it is obvious, then you can always see whether you're in the moment or out of the moment, uh, in the middle of complaining to your mother uh about work, you probably have seen. Wow, this is just a thought. This is just an identity. And you can see it as you're doing it, and you can even continue to do it, but you are seeing it, you're seeing the separation. You're seeing this is playing here, and this is me. And you can see, and of course, then you can also decide to stop. And so this is another thing that will be seen. I only started talking about this, even though we talked about so many beautiful things and we brought them to a conclusion. I almost wanted to just say, you know, think and say, maybe not today, but I think this is received. I think this can be heard. I think you certainly have the uh ears to hear it and the openness to receive it. And so please do. Please just yeah, I I thought we would just go for it. And so this is another thing that will be seen. It's inevitable. But again, are you worse off until you see this? This is always the question. Whenever we are having difficulty sleeping, or we are in a boring moment, and we say, Ugh, how much longer is this gonna am I gonna do it, be doing this? When am I gonna finally understand that? In that moment, can we say to ourselves, uh, certainly it is healthy and uh desirable to the person of me to recognize these things and to come out of them, to stop thrill seeking, to stop seeking misery? Of course, this will infinitely enhance my daily human experience. But is this a repair? Is this an upgrade? Is this a becoming or is this merely a recognition of what already is? And if it is a recognition that of what already is, then is the one being recognized is that One faulty or is that one perfect? Okay. This is the question. And this question must be asked, uh, or you know, I recommend it anyway. Nothing has to be in the moment, before the moment, after the moment, does not matter when. Am I trying to become, or am I trying to recognize what already is? And every single time I think I have improved myself, have I really improved myself, myself, or have I improved my seeing, my vision, my recognition of how things always were, always will be. This is what the question is trying to point out. And so this is just a uh hopefully a simple, obvious thing to recognize or to just just be open to and to just keep seeing in life. It doesn't have to be oh you either get it now or you don't, kind of thing. This needs to unfold, let it happen, right? And um infinite value in what you allowed us to unfold here, and not and what was already unfolded, uh brought to you, brought by you, unfolded here. Um, all this thrill seeking, all this activity of the ego, uh, which is the false self, the not you, right? How its activities are so different than the activities uh of the so-called true self, the the not ego, let's say. Words go away here, as you can see. Words do not help us much. They're they're always just pointers, but especially now they're it's getting cruder and cruder, right? But um this vision does not need words. We were only using words to communicate what we're already seeing or what we're trying to see and all this stuff, but um ultimately it's not the words, it's the seeing. And we can just um we can see this without needing to say it. But it's becoming more obvious, whatever it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Your um what you've talked about uh very beautiful. I just want to say that after listening to it something did became clearer to me. Uh I was confused because I here was my thought process. I thought that this the one deciding means that I am the decision. And clearly what you've said, like you're not your thoughts, these are just thought clusters. Uh even these actions that that has happened isn't me. And and and even these decisions uh maybe in the logistical world, uh there's a better, there's a worse. Uh but in reality right in this continuous uh time that we cannot adjust, that we cannot fix, that we cannot repair. Maybe a decision is just a happening, it's just reality. Maybe you're not responsible. And whatever ha whatever is happening to you, you deserve it. But I think maybe this decision making is not is also a bit em imagination, isn't it? Hearing you say all that I feel like this um belief of mine that you know oh I decide this. Um therefore it's it's my responsibility. Maybe in the logistical world it is my responsibility, but in reality it it's just something that happened. And I get and even the fact, even me getting is a privilege. It's a privilege to to have intention to have an intention to do good and that you do not need to do that. Reality still move on. Right? You cannot adjust it, you cannot fix it. Reality is just is whatever is happening is happening. And hearing you speak, I I I kind of clearly see that now. Maybe I'm I'm being confused again. I don't care. This is maybe I'm uh feeling thrilled, but yeah. It it's it's clear. It's clear.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Yeah, and I would I would uh have you read have you read Spinoza?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

No, yeah, I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:52

Okay. I would I would recommend that to you because he talks a lot about um not so directly, but he talks a lot about emotions, what they really are, thoughts, what they really are. Um free will, that there's uh so his his idea or his the way he talks about free will is very interesting. He neither says there is nor there isn't, but it makes perfect sense. Um he says ideas have their own will, and you are not the idea. So when you partake in an idea, when you say, I believe in the idea of honesty, then the will to be honest comes from the idea, it's it does not come from you, and even the choice towards honesty is not so much your will, but the will of your nature, of that which you are, right? When we say uh humans are generally uh reasonable beings, right? Because as soon as something stops making sense to us, we stop that activity. And so even the decision to partake in an idea, the will of that, there is will, but it's not inside of you. It's inside of your nature, inside of ideas. And so when you partake in an idea, naturally you are also receive the motivation from that idea to act in accordance with that idea. Very interesting. I think you'd find it very interesting. It is on our reading list. I want to point out to everyone there is a reading recommendations list that is always accessible through the newsletter. There's a link in there, but also on the website it says reading recommendations. Quite an amazing person. Uh, his story is also very amazing. You can uh quickly Google that. I recommend it to everyone. His little life story, it doesn't take long to read, there isn't that much. Um so yeah, we have many friends who are always ready to point things out to us. These things are saved and recorded and ready for those who have the eyes to see and who have the ears to hear, for them to receive it. We must only become open. There's no need for us to invent virtue, truth, beauty, peace, love, all these things are already there. We only must empty ourselves of ourselves, of all these thought constructs, of all these um emotions that we identify with. There's nothing wrong with thoughts, there's nothing wrong with emotions, but to identify with them is to do something that is not in alignment with truth. You are not the thoughts. The thoughts are real, they're there, there can be helpful thoughts and all this beautiful things, interesting thoughts. But it's just that you are not them. So why identify with something that you are not? It's as simple as that. And so I thank you very much for everything you brought here, everything you allowed us to unfold here. And um I'm looking forward uh in a non-thrill-seeking way, just waiting and seeing of um how things go, because it's it's a human joy, it's a pleasure to see awareness generally in the world and in oneself and everywhere because it's all one anyway, and to see um where you might take it. Uh again, not that you are needing to take it anywhere and uh or that I need to see it, but it is a pleasure to be able to witness such things. It's it's beautiful, and it's all around us, it's not a special important thing where we need to, oh, I need to chase this to be able to witness this and to get the joy from it. No. If you look, you can see it everywhere, you can see it in yourself. And so many thanks. And uh, I'm sure we'll talk again and I'll I'll move you back to the audience for now, but um with great gratitude, as we have said, for everything you brought here, very, very valuable and um very grateful. I hope everyone is listening. There's a lot going on in the chat again. I wonder how one can type a whole novel in there and uh listen at the same time. But um some people just seem to have that capacity. That's all right. I'm not gonna be jealous, uh, I just wonder how it's possible. And um, I will invite our next speaker.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:23

I guess because for a long time I identified with my thoughts and emotions and my body. So I think now seeing separation, I can take myself out of it or not try not to identify with those things I know I'm not, but when you don't know the separation, of course you're going to do that. I don't think opening up and stuff like that has to be a struggle, it's how you view it. About your perspective on just I'm kind of like in my head a little bit, lost in my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:09

That's right. Take your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

I guess I'm just trying to say like it doesn't have to be scary or anything, it's only if you perceive it that way. I don't I don't want to perceive reality in a negative way. I did for a while, a long time, but I'm really happy now because I know all the things that I thought I was and not.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:30

I think uh Autumn, you already brought up a very important point there that it doesn't have to be difficult. This again, whatever we want to call it, so many people call this enlightenment, awakening, whatever it is. It's these dramatic names for something very, very simple. And um, I myself, because of I'm seeing all these accounts of people talking about, ooh, one night I had a vivid dream and everything was shown to me, or during the day I just had this ecstatic experience. In fact, there's a whole book I read called Ecstasy. It's written by someone, I think, in the 1950s, who was seeing a lot of experiences in which people were describing their so-called awakening, where they were somewhere and they were just overcame by uh a warm feeling in their bodies, and and all they could see was light and uh whatever, all these different kinds of experiences. And I was like, wow, this must be what it is like. This is the feeling, this is the experience I'm gonna look out for. And until I get that, I'm not going to be so-called awakened. I'm not going, I could never be um understanding, I could never be rid of my false beliefs until this experience shows up. That will be the sign. This will be the signal that I have attained something, reached something. It is not so. There can be pain, there can be discomfort, certainly, in realizing that wow, all these things I believed I I used to be, um I am actually not. That can be some of the scariest things. And um, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, and we're it's just another thought to think that we have to have this kind of experience to know that we are understanding something, that we are letting go of false beliefs, that we are um finally understanding what we are not, that these scales are finally falling from our eyes. It does not have to be a difficult experience, it does not have to be necessarily a uh a misery, and uh I almost gave up, and and then the skies opened up for me, and this uh and this understanding was finally given to me, some some say by God, some say by angels, uh a vision, uh whatever it is, right? None of this is necessary. These are just even more thoughts, expectations and illusions, imaginations, many times. Uh so Autumn, once again, I was saying before, we'll we'll talk another time, uh, if if you would like, but I I think you already made a great point there, as I was saying that none of this has to be difficult, it's just another expectation, it's just another idea, it's just another thought, uh, which is not necessary to truth, which is not necessary to understand and wisdom, as they say. None of this is needed. And that's a beautiful realization. We have this expectation of the skies need to part, and God needs to speak, and it's gonna feel a certain way, it's gonna be a certain way. How could we know that? How could us people who have never experienced what it what it is like expect a certain experience to show us, to signal to us, ah, this is it. It doesn't make any sense when we think about it. Yet we live our entire lives looking out for the signs of this. And we look at it in substances, we look for it in certain uh experiences, retreats, or reading a book, or whatever, whatever it is. People become baptized, change religions in order to, oh, if I do that, this will happen to me and it will become clear. It is not so. And so, once again, I think this is uh what we have come here to do and in fact uh accomplished if we're still looking for accomplishments, if we are still looking to satisfy that part of us that is looking for achievements and for progress and for moving forward and for becoming better, then you can count this as one of your achievements. Nothing wrong with that. But you will see, uh, I trust that eventually you will not even need achievements anymore. Or rather, you will recognize that you never needed them. That what you are is a complete full being. It cannot achieve anything or uh fail at anything. It is already a complete being that you did not have to do anything to make it so. And so thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for engaging for your attention and for your insights too. Especially once again, a thank you goes to the speakers, and that openness that you brought here to speak is already yours. And you achieved that once again, if we're looking for an achievement, even before you came on, because you had the intention. That was already yours, that was already reality, that already happened, no matter what happened after. No technical difficulty, nothing that can ever happen can take that away from you. And so please always see this as an opportunity, as a resource to you, as a service to you, where you can come and you can let go. Let go. You do not need to come here to let go. You can let go at any time, anywhere. But this is one of those places. This is one of those places where you can come and bring something and say, look, I just figured this out. I want to share this with you, I want to benefit you with this. Thank you. Or I'm confused about this. Um, can we maybe put our heads together and talk about this? Thank you. Or, uh, you know, I've listened to you a lot and I did a lot of thinking and I did this and that, and I just I can't, I disagree with this. And I wanted to tell you that because I want to rid you of your ignorance. Or if somehow I am the ignorant one, I want to be rid of my ignorance. What a beautiful thing. Either way, we're going to win, right? And so this is that place, this is that time where no matter what happens, it is to our advantage. There has never been a single person who came here, was damaged, and left. Never, ever. It's impossible. It's not possible to happen. I'm not saying this is a great feat that we achieve every time that we get out of here without being damaged. No, it cannot happen. It is impossible. Everything is to our benefit. But only if you bring it here. If you keep it to yourself, the benefit is yours, of course, or the confusion. If you keep that, the confusion is yours. Only when you share it does something happen potentially. And so this cannot be done for us. We need to do this ourselves. And this is what this place intends to be: an opportunity for you to come to speak and say, and I want to add this, or but I want to say this. Once again, this is what we did, and I invite you next week to come and to listen if you still need to listen, or speak if you're ready to speak, and um to give it to philosophy, or to give it to God, whatever word you like, to give it to the universe, and to have it be taken from you.