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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Thank you for being here and for trusting truth and no longer wanting to be distracted from it and to try to understand, to know thyself, as our ancient Greek philosopher friends always advise us to do. And this is the place and the time to unravel, to see, to get away from false beliefs, and to drop all the rocks in our pockets that have been weighing us down and to finally become lighter. And lightness is peace. And peace is everything. Oh, and I guess before we get started, I see a few uh have noticed my little shirt here. Um I hope you can see it okay. I've I've I'll let you in on a little hobby of mine recently. My newest hobby was to sort of do this, uh design a few things and and put them on clothing. And so um to share that with with all of us, I've made a little shirt for accepting the universe as well. And so if you want one of them, you can get one of them. And um actually it'll be included with the subscription from now on. We'll get a free shirt um with the subscription, which I thought would be fun just as a little uh treat. And um, so that's the new announcement, I guess. The uh the subscription structure is changing quite a bit. I wanted to make it more accessible to people, so there are different um levels now, whichever suits you best. And um two out of the three levels include the shirt as a free gift. So I think that's uh pretty cool if we can uh share this together, and many of us can have one. As you know, it's not just a channel name, it's a bit of a phrase as well, right? It's about acceptance, it's about accepting everything, the way things are, the way reality is. And so I thought it's a neat little uh reminder as well. And yes, this absolutely uh retroactively applies to already existing subscribers. So if you're already a subscriber, you all you need to do is uh I'm gonna share the link. It's gonna be available soon. You can order it. Um, like I said, it's free. It's only shipping. Uh right now we don't have I can't ship outside of the US just yet. Um that's much more complicated. So for now it's uh US only. But uh we'll figure it out. And um you'll just have to check the link to see if shipping's now available or what the description says of what's going on. But yeah, I thought this would be a fun little thing. All right. I had a lot of fun uh making it. I think it's it looks kind of cool. It's uh fun. Okay. We have a few speakers now. I will invite the first one.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

My question, or maybe a point of confusion, would be around reason. And one of your book recommendations, Simone Wei, um, Waiting for God. Um, she's such an original thinker, and um a lot of what she writes, you know, you could think about one paragraph for you know a week. There's a lot of depth in her writing, and I may be interpreting some of it incorrectly, uh, so that could be an error on my my part, but she seems to me to be very cautious or not trusting around reason and focuses more on attention, and it's hard to sometimes uh understand her because sometimes in waiting for God, she's writing to a priest, these are just letters that she's written, but it almost seems like she feels reason can justify almost anything, and maybe the ego can be very tricky. And you you mentioned on a lot of your podcasts we're trying to see more thing more clearly, and as we see more clearly, it almost seems like the ego gets more tricky, and it's also probably see more clearly too, and getting trickier. So is is can reason have problems? I don't have a specific example, uh, but can reason have its own issues in itself, and should we be aware of something? Should we be on the lookout for something around reason? Um, because she seems to be cautious around it, maybe not trusting of it. And she seems to be more attached to attention. So that that's where I'm going with my question.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Well, thank you for the question. Beautiful. I I'm I'm grateful actually, in a way, that you are reading Simone Way. I think it's a beautiful thing to read, right? Among all the things there there are too many books that we'll we'll never be able to read. But if you are reading Simon Way, I think um you are in good hands. And I think it's a beautiful and I beautiful thing, and I recommend it, of course, to everyone. That's why it's in the reading recommendations. It's just a beautiful, beautiful work. And uh I want to ask you this is specifically to your question. Uh can attention exist without reason?

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Yes, I think so. Like you can be like aware your awareness can be there, and then you're using your reason to see clearly. Um yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Is is reason of the nature is it akin to awareness or unawareness? Which one does it gravitate to?

SPEAKER_05 6:37

Uh awareness.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Right. So these things are all the same nature. These this is a family. These these these people can't do without each other, right? So awareness, of course, awareness is always there. Everything, your your being, your existence is once again. Um, if it is not awareness itself, because we don't really know what the self is, right? It is once again, it certainly shares a nature with awareness. So whether the self is awareness or it it is through awareness, however, however it works, right? It it shares uh a being, it holds hands uh with awareness, the self does. And awareness holds hands with with reason, reason holds hands with attention. Um, these are all sometimes also concentration, right? And um this is all one family. On the opposing side, you have, and again, there's no opposition, there's no enemy, no such thing, just because we're intellectuals, right? We're intellectualizing right now, so we're thinking of concepts and so and to make them clearer and more digestible, we're sort of giving it these uh artificial categories just to be able to see things clearer, right? And so uh in that sense, on the other side, you have unawareness. Now, what's the family of unawareness, we would say? It certainly isn't attention, it's inattention, it's it's recklessness, right? It's ignorance is on the side of unawareness because when you're unaware, you are ignorant. You do not know. And you act out of unawareness, out of ignorance, uh recklessness, you could say. And um, distractions are on the side of unawareness because when we distract ourselves, we go unaware. Distraction is certainly not on the side of awareness, right? So you you can start to see these things, and this is what Simone Wei did. Simone Wei was not a so-called philosopher in the academic sense. If you had Simone Wei as a as a professor at a university, first of all, she would never do it. Uh, but you could give no grades, you could write nothing, you could, you could say nothing in a systematic way. We would say, you know, what is this? She would never give you the same answer twice. Right. So that's why she's often referred to as a mystic, right? As, for example, from older times, Rumi. A lot of people know Rumi. That's a mystic. And again, these are words, right? And words are very inaccurate, and these are these are words that are often overused and misused. Uh, mystic to a lot of people means supernatural, mystical, right? That's not what this is whatsoever. Uh, a mystic is someone who is looking for an intuitive experience of truth. Again, not in spirits or energies or things like that, not mystical like that. Um, mystic, as in this does not need studying. This does not need a bunch of learning. Uh, you certainly don't need to get a degree in this truth. They believe is accessible to everyone. And it is simple. Because if something is for everyone, it has to be simple, right? Because not everyone can um engage in complicated things. Complication is something that we do, uh, that we specialize in, that we have expertise in. So this is an exclusive, exclusive thing, right? But truth is not an exclusivity. Love is not exclusive. Truth is not exclusive, beauty is not exclusive, but these things are everyone's. So Simone Way is one of those people who says, Well, I'm not going to look for it in an esoteric religion or in an academic setting because these are exclusive settings. Right? And so that's why you find her writings also beautiful, because this kind of intuitive truth, uh, knowing and seeing is more often than not is also very poetic. Because it's not analytic analytical, it's not scholarly, so to speak. Um, so it's again on the side, if we're looking at sides, it's on the side of poetry, it's on the side of beauty. Um not that something analytical or scholarly or intellectual cannot be beautiful, of course it can be. But in terms of poetry, this is like that. And so, look, I I'm not sitting here trying to convince you of, or we're not having a debate, you're also not doing this, where we say, how can we prove that awareness and reason share the same nature? We're not doing this, right? I'm saying, I'm I'm asking you directly, is reason of the nature of awareness or unawareness? And you are intuitively saying awareness, of course. Did you read a book on the concept of awareness being akin to the concept of reason? Did you study this? Do you have a degree in this, right? Did you visit many uh talks? Did you read a lot of scientific papers about this?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

You didn't have to. This was inside of you already. And so this is a mystic, as they say, way of engaging with truth, meaning direct. Intuitive means direct. Intellectual is not direct. Intellectual is, you know, doing this and gathers data and analyzes it and synthesizes it, and then has to go prove it, and then someone can say something against it, and then we're gonna need to deal with that. And that's all fine. I'm not saying this is wrong, but it's just not direct. That's all. And Simone We is a direct person. Rumi is a direct uh Buddha, Jesus, Socrates, uh, even often, although Socrates does meander a lot. Um, these are direct people, right? So this is what it means to when you hear the word, oh, this person is a was a mystic. That's what that means. So we're deliberately not engaging. Many of us have studied, and many of us have studied philosophy, but we're deliberately not engaging in that way of um deliberating on these things because we're not looking for scientific proofs, we're looking for uh experiential signs, meaning this has to show up in my experience. It's nice to write a paper and it's nice to discuss these things and to analyze and to get different viewpoints, certainly, and sometimes if it's in a friendly way to debate about these things, but ultimately I have to know it. And know it not in the sense I have the degree, the proof to show it, I'm an expert in this, not knowing like that, knowing deep within me. When all the lights go out at night, the truth is split up. Right? What do I believe then? What do I know is happening to me then? And so if you are thinking about awareness and reason, this is a beautiful thing you're doing. So now your options are whether to engage with this intellectually or directly, intuitively. Whichever you like, whichever fits you best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

I I feel if the ego tries to hijack reason per se, what you've said many times is to ask to whom is speaking right now. And I think that's where reason to outpower like the ego, you if it's trying to be tricky, because it seems to get trickier and trickier uh as the more aware you are. But if you keep on asking to whom is speaking, reason should I it it seems to um clear things up each time to ask that question for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Say the last part again, I'd uh cut out a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 15:14

Sorry. Um to like you've mentioned to ask that question, whom is speaking. And I believe if you keep on asking that question, it doesn't allow the ego to hijack reason. Because I think sometimes you can you can justify anything with reason. Um but if you keep on asking that question, reason should stand higher than the ego or keep on clearing things up.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Um yeah yeah, absolutely. So two things you said, right? Uh when we constantly remind ourselves of the knowledge of the self, right? And when I say knowledge of the self, I again don't mean that we know exactly what we are, who we are. No, I actually the more we think about it, the more we don't, right? But we can know who we are by knowing who we are not, what we are not. So if I say knowledge of the self, it can be in that way as well. Um, so by constantly reminding ourselves of the knowledge of the self, we can every time come out of the grip of ego, as you note it. And this is a very valuable thing you're seeing. Of course. What this is everything. This is what people hope for. It's like, how can I remain, find peace, remain in peace? Find understanding, remain in understanding. This is how, this is the, I don't even want to call it a practice because it's again so intuitive and so automatic. As soon as it comes in, oh no, uh, what if I don't go to this event? What will I miss? Who's speaking right now? Has it become automatic for many of us? I hope, right? When when this thought comes in and a certain emotion comes up, just by the fact that a certain emotion comes up, not judging it on what emotion, oh, is this good or bad? Or no, just any emotion coming up automatically should trigger this question. And when I say should, I just mean it will. Once we're with this long enough, it will automatically. As soon as the thought comes in, everything is examined, everything is looked at automatically. And this looking at is very simple. It's just who's speaking right now. And um it's the as we know because we heard of we've been paying attention. Attention, we've heard the ego speak so many times, and the ego speaks of fear of loss. The ego speaks of reputation, the ego speaks of mine. This is mine. The ego speaks of loss, the ego speaks of uh profit, right? And so we've learned to recognize the tone of the false self. And so this is happening more automatically now. Um, but I also want to say reason is also just another word, right? We're not going to worship the word reason. We're not gonna write it, we're not gonna tattoo it, and then say this this is everything, reason is everything, because reason is just a word, and that word too is misused and overused. When you said um you can justify anything with reason, I actually want to show you that that you don't agree with that, because uh so many people have used the word reason synonymous with the word logic that this has become confused. With logic, you can justify everything because uh everything can become logical. When you study logic in one of our academic philosophical institutions, you often see you can use any sentence to fit into a logical structure. Meaning uh you can end up with nonsensical sentences such as, it is raining right now, therefore cats are real. You can it's just a structure, the words don't matter. You can put any words in there and it and it will technically be logical, logically sound. But reason does not work like that. Reason is not logic, these are not synonymous. Reason is the absence of emotion. To me, look, this is again not I'm not writing a book, I'm not telling other people what things are. To me, this is what it is, and I suggest it to you as I do everything else. To me, this is reason is the motivation that remains once emotion is taken out of the equation. Because this also, time and time again, we find is the difference between judgment and discernment. Both judgment and discernment call some things right and some things wrong. And with judgment, you can call anything you want right or wrong, because judgment comes out of emotion. Judgment is anger, resentment, hatred, desire. And so anything I feel that I lack and that I want, I'm gonna call good. But that's not based on reason. Is it really good? Or is it do I call it good? Do I judge it right or wrong based on if I want it or not? And what is my base, my wanting or not wanting based on? This judgment cannot tell you. Judgment is just gonna want what the emotions want, what the identities want, what the ego wants. Discernment is judgment minus emotion. When you discern something, it should not excite you, right or wrong. And it should not make you fearful, right or wrong. When you look at your life and you judge the uh the the prior 15 years of your existence, 15 years wrong, improper. You spent it in a way, you've lived in a way that is improper to a human being. If you can see that without fear, you're discerning this to be true. Reason is telling you this. And only so, so that you can change your ways. It's never too late. There's no such thing as too late. The ego speaks of time. How much longer? You're way past the deadline. Everything's too late now. This is ego talk. Reason has never told you that something is uh too late or too early in an emotional connection.

unknown 21:59

Same.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

You're worth less now because you've passed the deadline, or you haven't become yet. You have to wait. So discernment is simply that. I've I've spent my life, a lot of it, in an improper way to a human being, because the nature of a human being, and here we go again, discerning nature, what is the nature of a human being? It's awareness. It's attention, it's a reason. I've spent my life, so much of it, in unawareness, in inattention, in an unreasonable way. How can I change myself without how can I change my life without first discerning this? But judgment is not this. Judgment is I wasted most of my life and it's too late now, and my youth is gone, and I might as well uh never try again. That's judgment. Or it will say, because it is ego-driven and it does not ever admit defeat, because it doesn't operate on reason, it operates on ego, on thrill, on satisfaction, on desire. It will say, no, no, no, no, that was all fine, that's all good. I did nothing wrong, I never did anything wrong. And those who tell me that are my enemies, and I will overcome them, I will endure, and I will show them all. This is judgment, calling the same exact thing good or bad, depending on what is driving us. But discernment can look at that and say, yes, I am proud, yes, I am bitter, yes, I am resentful about this. Or again, I've did such a good job, so I'm proud about it. But I can put all of that aside with discernment, with reason, and see, was this right? Was this proper or improper? And again, so simple, so intuitive to know when we are judging, when we are being intuitive, when we are uh logically justifying an egoic action or uh reasonably discerning what is right or wrong, it's simply this. Is there any emotion in it? And again, as always, for those who love the emotions, who love to defend them, who are in the grips of emotion, who are guided by emotion, I understand you. I am not saying that emotions are bad. I have to say this every time, otherwise, it's not received. There's nothing bad about emotion. Emotions are not our enemy, emotions are not the opponent, emotions don't need to be suppressed or ignored or killed or fucked or anything. This is not what I'm saying. But when we're looking for a guide in our lives, what shall I do? This or that? To whom do we want to go to? To emotions or reason? This is all I'm saying. And so this is the this is always the simple remembrance, just like you said with the question of who is speaking. This is another simple thing. Another simple question, another simple reminder. Are there any emotions in this? If I'm making a decision, I only need to um inquire within is there emotion? Uh I would I kind of would like it to be the result to be that I say this is what I've been doing is proper. Because I love it. It's thrilling to me and it's it's really makes me feel alive. And it's so impressive also to people around me. So I hope, I hope I decide that I deem this to be proper. This only you can see, no one else can tell you this. And so if you see any of that, you can know that whatever is saying, the opposite should be done. Or you find, no, I am not excited by either either option or either whatever I'm trying to discern, I'm trying to reason. Uh, it's just that I'm seeing this is the right thing to do. And it doesn't excite me that that's the right thing to do, or it does not uh make me sad or whatever you want to, angry or whatever. And so, no, okay, so that clearly that's then reason speaking. So this is again the very, very simple, beautiful thing that we have available to us simply by being a human being. This is not learned, this is not taught, this is not purchased, this is not achieved. Maybe there is some training to this, uh, I'm not sure. But again, the ability to train and the ability to have this train training result in this is all already contained in the human being. This is not an external thing that needs to be procured. And so this is what Simone Wei is doing. Look, this whole time we have not once stepped into academic, I haven't mentioned a single uh word of jargon or a single name or a single theory or a single so-and-so says this, and therefore that, and none of that. This is all discerned, this is all known uh in the self, by the self, without any external uh not input, but without any external element that needs to be procured that we're not already born with. So this is the so-called mystic way of engaging with ideas, truth, uh, experience, the experience of life. And so I just heard you speak about reason in that way, and I just wanted to offer that to you that reason and logic are not the same.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Okay, and well, thank you for your question. Thank you for uh allowing us to speak about this and to unfold some things. And uh once again, very it's really great that you're reading Simone Way. And um I will also ask you the question of the Fortnite. You don't have to answer it. I'm just gonna ask it and then you can say, actually, I don't, I haven't thought about it. I'd rather not answer. I don't know what I'm saying. Um, so the question of the week or of the fortnight is are you perfect?

SPEAKER_05 28:37

Yes, because uh the true self is perfect in every way. As you explained beautifully uh many times, it you know, you can make it better, it can make it worse. It's it's perfect. Um, and I just have to keep on making sure I see that clearly. And uh I definitely it, you know, I didn't I didn't believe that before. Um now I do.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

So do you do you remember how you moved from that to this? How you used to think that you are an imperfect being because you're only human after all, right? The phrases are ready for us to believe this. And so uh, and then sort of somehow seeing that oh, interesting, I actually don't lack anything. I'm not an incomplete being. Uh, do you remember how that happened to you for you or um what your experience was?

SPEAKER_05 29:37

Well, before I had no idea about the true self. I probably mixed the ego and the true self, the false self all together all the time, which the false self is clearly not perfect. It has problems, you know, the ego likes to bring up everything. And so, you know, you for years, my whole I'm 53 years old for most of my my years. I thought there's no way I'm perfect. I I was thinking the the false self was the the true self, and I think you're very good at articulating things. Um I've read a lot of these type of books before, but I've never made these connections. So you're able to articulate it in a way um makes it easier to understand. Um so just recently watching your your podcast is when things started getting clearer for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

That's amazing, yeah. And I but look, all those things that you heard before that maybe didn't click, it was sort of it probably also helped, right? Because you're hearing these things. The most important thing is that we hear these things because we're never told these things. How can we know something without ever coming in contact with it? It it it is it is there as the true self is. The true self was always there, right? You didn't all of a sudden discover or achieve a true self, you just recognize what was there the whole time. So it was already there, but someone needs to point to it because we cannot see it ourselves. Even now, knowing of it, we cannot see the true self. We don't know what it is. We only know what it is not. It is not this judging thing, it is not this one that has so many opinions and beliefs and uh condemns other people and wants to feel good all the time and and needs to chase so-called good emotions. Otherwise, if it's if it has too many bad emotions, it's in a bad way. It's getting broken down, it needs healing. All these things we think are us. And no one says, you are not that, you are not this. No one ever told us this. And it comes again, you know, there's always a theme when we talk about things, right? It comes again from intellectualizing because even when we read the book about the true self, you can read the most ancient, beautiful uh words about this very thing, because this all comes from that. It's not like we invented any of this. And uh you'll still dismiss it as I have done. I come from the intellectual realm of things, right? I did not um grow up religious, not that being religious means uh not being intellectual either. Some of the most intellectual people are religious people because you can intellectualize anything. You can intellectualize anything. And so I come from that side was that everything needs to be scientific, everything needs to be proven scholarly, and it needs to be complicated. And maybe perhaps one day if I have an expertise in this, that's when I can uh be at peace or know something. But when you let go of the intellectualizing, um that's when these things are allowed to come in because before we're closed, before we're demanding things of truth. Truth doesn't work that way. It's like one of our friends, Viktor Frankel says, right? He went to the Holocaust and he says, um, you cannot ask life what the meaning of life is. Life asks you what the meaning of life is. So when we see truth, we say, What do you have for me? Come on, come prove yourself to me. Otherwise, I'm just gonna keep being miserable. Joke's on you. If you do not prove yourself to me, I'm just gonna punish you by continuing to be miserable. I'm not gonna allow you. This is what we say the truth. This is what we say to peace. As if they owe us something. Right? And we go around asking the whole world, asking life all the time, well, what's what's your meaning? Why should I engage in you? If you can't prove your meaning to me, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna uh stop living, I'm not gonna continue this life. As if it's so centric. Have we noticed that? Um, egocentric, as they say. And so we gotta turn that around. We have to say, uh, we have to provide the answers. I can't demand answers anymore from peace. I can't demand any proof from life. I need to come up with these things. And it's not a need as in like you're lacking something, go prove yourself, assemble something so that you can have a peaceful life. No, it's just the very act of looking, the very act of changing one's disposition from a demanding one to ah, I need to find these, I need to look. I cannot be spoon-fed. That very act, that very change in disposition and attitude is the whole thing. That is the thing itself. It is not that we do that, and then at the end there's a prize. The prize is peace, meaning, and happiness and all that. No, this is the very process. As soon as the disposition changes, uh, we're opening up. And as soon as we open up peace, meaning, uh, purpose, if you want to say, and uh even a certain amount of happiness, even though happiness is just an emotion and that doesn't matter really at the end of the day, all these things start coming in. And uh after that, it's just again a sort of disposition to remain open. Because one can also say, Oh, I've learned many things, I've seen many things, so I've had I have it now and I close it up. No, we need to remain open because the ego likes to close things up, put a ribbon around it, and say, this is done, this is finished, this is good, and now I can show it off to people. No, this is uh an ever-remaining openness. There is nothing to brag about here, there's nothing to show around. That's not the point. For the first time in our lives, that's not the point. The point is simply to have the experience, even if no one else is looking. And um, that experience is simply peace. That which was always there, but what that we could not recognize. Uh, and of course, technically we can always recognize it. There's no such thing, oh, you are unable to write. No, you're only unable to recognize us as long as you yourself um decide to have your hand in front of your eyes, essentially. And so uh thank you once again for that uh great answer as well, because this again, you are a living example. You are a living example. I always talk about living examples, and we think of living examples as Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, all these kind of people. No, it's all of us. And this was their message too. It's all of us. And so you are a living example. You are just like everyone else, everyone here. Um you're saying you used to identify with these things, you used to see no separation. I think you said a beautiful thing, which we don't talk about a lot. We all do this. We call the self many things. And as you said, the false self is included in that, the identities are included in that, thoughts, emotions, memories are included. We call all of that the self. And that's how it is possible that we can say, oh, one part of me thinks like this, another part of me wants this. The self has no parts. It's just we we made a collection of it, and so there are these conflicting things within it. And so we say, one part of me wants this, another wants this. And I remember that very well now, as soon as you said it, that I used to do that too. And I think that's a common uh that that is the issue, that is the thing, to see what you are not. And so that was a beautiful reminder. And um, sometimes we don't recognize everything that's been happening because we're not paying attention to progress anymore, to achievements, which is the which is right, of course. But then we remember something happens or something brings up a memory, and we say, wow, I would have totally reacted like this just a year ago, 10 years ago, whenever. And that's when you really see evidence of um how far you've come, as they say. And so that was a beautiful reminder. Uh, thank you so much. Thank you for the reading you're doing. Thanking, thank you for the thinking you're doing and the speaking you're doing, and thank you for your answer and questions and insights and everything. Very, very valuable. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

And um, so that being said, I will uh move you back to the audience again with great gratitude. That was amazing. Thank you for coming here and for sharing these things and for uh enriching this time and place uh in the way that you have done. And um I will invite our next speaker.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Yeah, um, I've I've been coming to these kinship talks for like about two months, and I thought it was best to sort of like you say push past the fear and actually speak up, and I just wanted to contribute. Um I really liked uh what you said in a previous one about the um like the trap we can fall in on this path, if we want to call it. Like, am I trying to become or am I recognizing what has always been? Like that's quite a really resonant sort of phrase for me because it really solidified like the difference between actually seeing these ideas and this distinction, like the previous said, and just forming another like mind construct and fall into and all the stuff that comes of that, and yeah. And I just want to say for myself, I think for me there there is like an element of like training for this because I have quite a loud mind that there's a lot of resistance, and I'm still not there yet, but I feel like the door is open, I guess, for like the first time, you know. So and I'm trying not to let that become like a a thing, if you know what I mean, as well. Like I'm just that's a phrase, but yeah, I um I don't really have anything specific. I just wanted to sort of share my experience of this. So yeah, it's it's quite sort of life-changing, really.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Well, that is both beautifully specific as well as beautifully universal, because you're saying something um uh very specific in our experience, actually, because look, if you'd meet a thousand people, how many people would say this, what you're saying? So it's actually very, very specific, right? You're narrowing down, you're you're seeing many, many things, uh, important things, and uh most people do not. And this is not a judgment, it's just a simple uh if there was a statistic, I'm sure it would show this. Um, that most people simply don't engage in this. And we were most one of those people, and and still are in many ways. But and I heard in what you said the idea of I'm still not there yet. This is part of the that other mindset. This is part of that mindset that was suffering, that was miserable. Right. So this is something I'm sure you'll see also, but I just want to point it out. As you are already here, I uh gracing us with this amazing insight and ideas and and conversation. I want to give something back and say, Okay, okay, you're not there yet. But what does that mean, not there yet? I I think what you are saying is your habits have not changed yet. There are thinking patterns that are still from the old mindset that are still going on, and you are recognizing that now and saying, this is not proper, this is not right. And so you're saying, um, I'm still getting, I'm still not there because this is still going on. But I want to tell you this those things are allowed to go on. Those things cannot harm you because you've lived a life until whenever that was pretty much completely consumed by these thinking patterns and these ways of going about things. And um so, but you're still here. You're still here. So even a life consumed by these things was not able to harm the so-called true self because you are still here, otherwise, you would have been damaged, broken, destroyed by now. So, if a life full of that cannot destroy you or even touch you, really, you're seeing now, how can these things that are still kind of happening, you're still not there yet, and you're still working on, how can that be a problem to you? You see what I mean? So, yes, yeah, this is something to think about. So, whenever that happens, don't see it as a personal failure. There's no need. Because what who's failing? What's failing? What's happening? What's the damage? What's the problem? I understand those um mental constructs, those ways of thinking are not proper and they're not healthy to the person, and they're just not wished for anymore. I understand that. And so in time they'll they'll go away then, right? But what's the problem, nevertheless? I understand they're not proper, but what's the problem to you? To you, there is no problem. Because you're here, you're untouchable. So the awareness is untouchable, nothing was able to destroy your awareness. Um, what we are only increasing is the awareness of awareness. The awareness of awareness, because these uh thought patterns, these mental things that distract you, that take you back into unawareness, into ignorance, they take you out of the awareness of awareness. And of course, uh a beautiful, enjoyable, full human life is a life that is aware. Of course. Imagine, you know, it's like uh playing a whole movie. This is in the old days, we don't do this anymore, right? Something is playing and you want to record it. Um, because you can't be there. And so this is like life playing, and you can't be there because you're unaware, but also no one's recording because unawareness. It's not being recorded. So this is what people say when uh life passed me by, when they say life passed me by. What does that mean? How can life pass you by? Because you're not you cannot step out of life. So, how did life pass you by? It passed you by because you didn't have your finger on the record button. Unawareness. This is what we call unawareness. But unaware of what? Unaware of awareness, right? Because the awareness is there, the true self is there. You did not make the true self, you did not invent it. It was not given to you either. It's just you are, you always have been. And so that's not gonna change, that's not gonna be damaged or be improved in any way. It's awareness of awareness. And um I'm gonna take a little short break here. As you know, we have uh 4th of July, so there are many fireworks going on. So Layla is a little freaking out, my dog, so I'm gonna let her inside so she can be with us.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

No problem.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Um, she's scared.

SPEAKER_04 45:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

It's the classic dog thing, thunder and fireworks, right? Yeah. So uh she's been scratching at the door for several nights.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

You're okay. You're okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

And um, see, this is the same thing we we should do with the ego, right? When these thoughts happen, the ego is crying, the thoughts are crying. They say, I have a problem, something terrible is going on. There are explosions outside. Can't you hear this? And uh, but I don't say, Oh no, you poor thing, you're in a bad way, you know. Uh I'll give you some medicine, I'll give you some food, I'll give you some alcohol, right? So many people go to that as well. No, I just I just let the dog in, and so she can uh feel a little better, but I'm not concerned about it, right? Because we know a higher truth. You know a higher truth than the thoughts that are still coming to you, you know a higher truth than the ego. It's the same thing. And so this is exactly what life presents to you. And if you're aware, you can see this, and even something as uh profane as this happening in your regular life can be an analogy to you and it can remind you of things, right? And so now she feels better. Now she's uh sitting there, not scratching at the door, not crying anymore. Um, and it's the same with the ego. The ego is not a problem to you when it comes crying to you, when it says, I have a problem, fix it, fix it. I'm I'm in a worse way, I'm terrible, I'm gonna die. You say, okay, come sit down, come come have a tea. But uh, I'm not gonna be concerned because I know better than the ego. Before we used to identify with the ego, so its problems were ours. We were very concerned about everything that it had to say. But that's gone now, right? But the ego is still there, it's still scratching at the door. And so every now and then we open the door, we let it in, we give it a couple pets, and then we send it away again. And um, that time that we had to spend like that is not a failure. It is not a burden. It is not a problem, it is not certainly not a catastrophe. It is nothing. It isn't it is nothing. It's neither good nor bad, it's just something that's happening. You know, your nails are growing, so you trim them. You don't think anything about it. You say, ah, these pesky things, again, I have to do this all the time. Or I wish they would grow longer, faster. You never think about it like that. You just see it's time to do your nails to clip them off, and so you go do that. But you could uh intellectualize that, you could get into it and say, is this a good thing or a bad thing? It has to be one of these two things. That's how the ego thinks. Is this good for me? Is this bad for me? It has to be one of these things. And so this is seeing that slowly, right? And um this is not the again point out, oh, look, you're doing this wrong. Not at all. It's just another suggestion, another pointer in your uh expanding vision, which was going to happen anyway. I just wanted to offer it to you, but um, this is inevitable anyway, right? But when we have heard it before, sometimes it's like, oh, and I heard it before. Then you it maybe accelerates it a little bit, right? And and that can be logistically, that can be a good thing because your life is getting uh your logistical daily life experience is getting raised maybe a little quicker. Nothing wrong with that. You didn't need it, you weren't lacking before. But um why not? It's sort of like get moving into a better neighborhood. Why not? Right? It's not necessary, but why not? And so it's beautiful what you're experiencing, what you're seeing, right? And this is happening, and it's happening in your experience. You remember because you have memory, which the ego used to use against you so so many times in so many ways. You know what it was like to totally identify with that and to totally be consumed by that. And then you started to see a separation. Wow, there's something in between these thoughts, this false self, this thought construct and myself. And now you're even seeing, wow, this whole time I thought I was bettering myself. I was working on myself, so I was getting better. Now you're seeing, wow, I was actually not working or making better anything. I was just recognizing what was already there. And so this is another recognition. This is you recognizing that you don't need to, yes, the thoughts are less and less, those mental constructs, those thought constructs are coming less and less. Um, but you are not getting better. You are only recognizing how it was always under the thought constructs. There was always this self, uh, certainly this peace, this vision. It was always there, it was just obscured. And so this is a very important idea that it is not a attainment, it is just a simple recognition of what already is. And uh I think every time we learn something of truth, it's like this, it's never an addition. I used to think like that as well, but I uh now I feel like well, I'm just being shown yet another thing that was always like that. So it's not like I gained something, I understood something, I made something where there was nothing before. No, it's a simple recognition. Wow, I always had this in my closet, I just didn't know or forgot. And so this is the beautiful thing that we are not becoming, that we are merely recognizing of what we already are. Right? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 51:45

Yeah, yes, it does, yeah. Yeah, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

And so that's the beautiful thing. And uh I'm glad you overcame your fears of this horrible thing. I know you risked so much to be here. This could have gone this could have gone so bad.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Yeah, if I may, I'd like to sort of say there's a there's an interesting sort of parallel because I've been pushing against other fears as well. Uh pushing against yeah. See, you know, this is a recognition, this is beautiful. I've been sort of just doing things in spite of fear, um, with like music, and like it's it's the exact same result, like nothing it didn't harm me, even perceived failure. It doesn't there's no harm. So yeah, uh um, yeah, thank you for uh thank you for your uh sort of addition and insights. It's uh it's great.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Yeah, thank you so much for appreciating this.

SPEAKER_04 52:44

And everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, once again, you are a living example, right? And I want you to recognize that too, not because you have to, but because it would be nice. Um that we are we are living these things. Right? This is not a theory, this is not something that happened in the past, other people did it, and so we can see that and think about it and talk about it. No, this is happening within all of us as soon as we let it. It's not a becoming worthy, it's not an achieving, it's not a you know, it's not a prize or anything. It's a letting, it's an allowing. As soon as we allow, we don't allow anything. This is the issue. We're closed off. And so as soon as we start allowing truth, truth is coming in. It's as one of our other mystic friends, uh, Meister Eckhart says, uh, God cannot wait to come in into you, but you must empty yourself.

unknown 53:48

Right?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

So God, truth, uh, love, these are synonymous things, in my opinion. And so as soon as you empty yourself, as soon as you make room, truth, love, God, whatever the word you like, it can't wait to come into you to fill you up, to replace these things. But if we remain full, this cannot happen. So thank you once again for your uh beautiful insights and what you've shared and everything, and just your presence here. Thank you so much. Uh, your this awareness, this recognition, as our friend uh Spinoza, yeah, I think it was Spinoza, said there's nothing more useful to an aware person than another aware person. And this is what I want this uh community to be, and this is what it already is. I'm just saying this is what we want uh to maintain it to be. Aware people. Just aware people being with each other. That's all there is to it. So that uh we are engaging in awareness rather than distraction, because so many friendships, so many groups, so many identities certainly are about forgetting, not about remembering. And so we say, uh, oh, I just broke up with someone, I had a hard day at work or this or that, whatever it is. And uh let's go do something. Let's go drink or let's go watch a movie, let's go hang out, let's do it. It's about forgetting. It's about using each other to escape something rather than to see something, to remember something. And uh that's what a true friend is, a true friend that makes you remember and does not make you forget.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

To be present as well, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah. I mean, that's awareness, presence. Again, these things are family, right? And so that's a beautiful thing to see. And when we have aware people together, this only uh is more conducive to openness because unaware people, closed-off people, will what what can they suggest to us? What will they say to us? They will say the world is a horrible place, it's a scary place, it's an evil place, and so you must protect yourself and don't trust anyone, right? And so, but uh an aware person will just say, Hey, wherever you're going, it will be truth. It'll be right for you, and truth has never harmed you. So even though it might be painful at the time, it might be challenging, it might even be feels like it's devastating, you would never have it any other way afterwards. Every time this happened to you where it felt painful, you see, well, I can't imagine if that hadn't happened, if I had continued in the in that way, and if that wasn't ripped away from me. And so nothing can happen to you, as you can see. Because if it could, it would have already happened. You already would have been destroyed, living uh so much of our of our lives in unawareness, right? And in all these things that are that we now see you are uh which just was just ignorance. And so this is a beautiful recognition. Thank you for being this living example, and thank you for speaking here. Thank you for not listening to fear anymore. And uh as long as you do that, it is inevitable, inevitable that you will gain that vision if there is anything to gain of peace, of love, of truth, of the self. Right. And so thank you so much. I will uh move you back to the audience for now. And uh thank you again for being here. Thank you again for speaking and sharing that. That's very, very valuable.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

And um, I will invite our next speaker. So I wanted to speak about uh thrill seeking and um how uh it made me examine um like the way I I live, I would say. Um because um I realized that's kind of what I'm doing uh of my days, trying to to fill my days, being entertained, um whether it be uh meeting with a friend or just consuming content uh online or spending leisure time on the computer. I'm examining examining it and I'm thinking it's like uh thrill-seeking, um and it's something I wanna change. Um but um also it arise the confusion a bit because I'm I'm thinking if there is no I I I wouldn't see my life without uh some fun, some laughing, some smiling, uh I mean um and so um if there is no thrill seeking to to to have to to be because I see how it can be sort of a poison to the soul. Uh and since it's all about intentions, how do you know you set your intentions right?

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Yeah, that's a beautiful question. And this is uh this is exactly the point that we need to investigate, inquire about ourselves in order to finally stop being able stop thrill seeking. Or if thrill seeking turns out to be this great, amazing thing that makes life so much better, let's thrill seek even more than we used to. Right? And this is each person's own decision, which way they want to go. But this is the point in which we have to make that decision, in which the road splits a little bit. And so we simply want to decide which way we're going because we can't go both ways. And so there's the perception, there's the idea, and this is in my mind, and my opinion, this is the resistance of the mind that comes up when it says, Well, I I see that thrill seeking uh can be very destructive because thrill seeking is always thinking about the future, always looking forward, right? And so the present moment that's that's not it yet. It's not here yet. So we're constantly waiting, we're constantly anticipating, constantly expecting. And so I can see how that's not a good thing because I'm not living my life. I'm not in the present moment. I'm constantly looking forward, or if the thrill was in the past, I'm constantly looking, oh, how great that was. I wish that would happen again. How can I make that happen again? Can it happen again? Is it possible? Who can do this for me? So I can see that that's destructive. But if I don't do any thrill seeking, then am I ever gonna smile again? Am I ever gonna feel joy again? Am I ever gonna feel something that's exciting again? Or is life just gonna be this boring, bland, um, meaningless thing? This is the idea. And this is where the mind says, do not give up thrill seeking. You will become a gray, bland, disinterested, uncaring, unhappy, uh, totally numb person. And this is how the mind gets us to look, you've been you've been letting go of so many thrills. I mean, you gotta also slow down, right? So uh do a little bit of this again. And just like the alcoholic who has one sip of something, the next day they're back to two two full bottles. And this is how the thrill seekers, too. We say we let a little bit of thrill in because we deserve it, right? This is the funniest thing, and uh this I want you to hear because it's been pointed out to me as well. And I we we really have to pay attention to this. I think our friend Seneca pointed this out to me. We reward ourselves with the very thing that we're trying to get away from. We think we need to lose weight, so we diet, and then we say, You've been good dieting, losing so much weight, eating so much less of this food that is unhealthy for you. Here, reward yourself with a little bit of that same food. And this is a self-defeating thing, and it's the funniest thing that we knowingly do, and again, uh back to the person who maybe has a substance issue said, I've been not drinking, I've totally quit for nine months. I haven't had a single drop. How amazing. To celebrate, I will have just one little beer, just a light beer, no big deal. If I can handle no drinking, I can handle a little drinking. So the very thing that we're abstaining from that we cannot any longer touch becomes a reward to us. We're all thrill seekers, we're all engaging in this. And but then we see the harmful effects, and we say, uh, but surely, you know, we leave ourselves a little door, surely too much of anything is bad. And so, too much of no thrill seeking, too much of no constantly having expectations of other people and events to make us feel better. Surely too much of that cannot be good either. But I want to tell you, and I can only tell you, you have to see this for yourself, joy, the approval and the vision, and the experience of beauty, of peace, of wonder, all of these things have nothing to do with thrill seeking. And in fact, these things are covered up by thrill seeking. We are in a beautiful environment right now, we're within kinship, but the thrill seeker is thinking, oh, in three hours I'm gonna go out to eat, or I'm gonna go out with friends and I'm gonna do this, and this is gonna be a great time, and we're there. And the present moment, all the beauty that is in the present moment, because if beauty is everywhere, beauty is everywhere, the present beauty is covered up by the perceived, speculated, illusionary future possible potential beauty. And uh boy oh boy, if we get to that moment and it's not quite as we expected, quite as we demanded, quite as we imagined, even that moment that we've been looking forward to becomes pain and poison and misery. And it angers us, it disappoints us, it frustrates us. Beauty, joy is right here, right now, and if we cannot see it now, we can we will never be able to see it. Because a thrill is a fake joy, a thrill is a rush. Uh if you if you recognize every time we are thrilled, we are experiencing exception. Success. We're experiencing a large, unnatural amount of something. That's what a thrill is. Because if you notice, peace is not thrilling, even though peace is the ultimate goal to every thrill seeker. We only want thrills so that we can be a peace, so that we can have a joyous, fulfilled life. And we think we can force that or increase that or maximize that by accumulating a bunch of something, whether it's a substance or it's an experience, and we make it into an explosion and we're dazzled by that unnatural intensity for a moment or two. How long does the thrill last? And then we say, wow, that was thrilling. That made me feel alive. And as soon as it's over, we're looking forward to the next one. So we're leaving living only a moment or two, however long the thrill lasts. And even that is not really living. It's just nervous, excited, uh dazzlement. It's not really joy. It's not, it's certainly not contentment, it's certainly not comfortable. It's a rush. And because we we're so overwhelmed, something extraordinary is happening. We feel excited. And when we feel excited, we feel alive. And then we say, ah, this is what being alive is. This is what it is. And I and I wish I could always feel like this. And so we become junkies. As many thrills as we can get, we we try to cram in. But since they're so excessive, so extreme, no moment can really hold them for a long time. The true joy of human experience is peace. And peace is stillness, peace is contentment, peace is awareness, peace is living in the present moment, seeing the beauty that is right here, right now, that is very subtle, too subtle for a thrill seeker. Those cannot see it. And peace and contentment lasts forever. It is never overwhelming. Peace can be had 24-7. A thrill by its very nature needs to be extraordinary. And and the thrill seeker sees ordinary as something bad, but peace is ordinary. Peace is not an overwhelming rush and excitement, a momentary explosion. That is not what peace is. Peace is steady, everlasting, and always there. And so when we give up thrill seeking, not only do we not give up joy, that is the very first time that we will experience true joy. But again, all of this is talk, all of this is theory. I just want to give you pointers as they have been given to me. And so that you can then go experience it, observe it in your life. Whenever you are thrilled, be aware, don't go unconscious. Don't go unconscious like the drug addict. Don't go like right. Look at it. Observe it and see, is this really joy? Is this beauty? What is this? And vice versa. When you let go of a thrill just once, the expectation of it, the constant forward-looking, the constant yearning and desiring that makes us so discontent with the present moment, the people that we're with, or the place that we're in, or the time of day. When you let go of that just once, just to do it, just as an experiment, you will see the stillness that underlies all of this expecting and all this craving. And that stillness, that beauty, that contentment, that home, you can always have. It is always there. You're just not seeing it. And when I say you, I mean all of us. And so once again, not only does the absence of thrill seeking not damage joy, it in fact, for the first time in our lives, allows us to see the joy that is ever present and does not need to be accumulated, does not need to be earned, does not need to be put together. It is always there, ready for the taking. But we could not see it because we're constantly seeking. Seeking. To seek means to be discontent with how things are now and to look to change it. And as long as we are looking to change things, we are unhappy with things, with how things currently are. And as we know from our own experience, no thrill has ever been able to change this nature of ours, where we somehow we experienced the thrill, and then afterwards, we never needed a thrill again. Afterwards, we were content with how things are, and we could see the beauty, and everything was pleasant and joyful. And beauty is oh, beauty is everywhere. How wonderful. I never need anything again. No thrill has ever done this for us. And are we just not seeking the right thrill? Or are we just not experiencing a thrill that is thrilling enough? Is that the problem? Or is the problem the very nature of thrill seeking, which is seeking, which is always looking for what is not here? Thrill seeking is is looking for what is not here. And to give up thrill seeking is to finally give up looking for what is not here. And when you give up looking for what is not here, then and only then for the first time you can see what is here. And this you need to see for yourself if what is already here is not worthy of your attention, if what is already here is lacking and it's stupid and it's boring, or if there is an ever-present, amazing, graceful beauty to it and a joy to it, a silent joy, a steady joy, a sustainable joy, and a joy that is in fact not only sustainable, but sustained always. This only you can see, this only you can answer for yourself. But I want to at least suggest to you this idea that many people have experienced, believe in, and tell us about that thrill seeking has no impact in the negative way, or giving up thrill seeking has no impact in the negative way of your experience as a human being, fullness of life, joy, excitement, even it has no impact on that negatively. Quite the opposite, it uncovers so much more that we did not know was there.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Yeah, thank you for uh your insights. Um as you said, it's something to be lived, so I'm gonna try to uh expand my vision on that and try to um see it. And I don't know, maybe come back and give an update on that. Okay. Um I don't know if I have much time, but I wanted to ask some of more of a practical question. Yeah, good. You saw about uh journaling. Um I've been thinking to start, and it's not clear to me what I should write.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Uh well, perfect. Do you know of the Seneca Book Club?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

Yeah, uh I've been uh seeing it here.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

And have you have you been uh engaging with it? Have you been journaling on the Seneca Letters?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Uh not yet, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

Okay, so there's the answer to your question. That's why I created that book club because it's uh not only a book club, it's not only uh that you read, but you write also. And uh you can see in uh we have it here, right here on Discord, we have a whole section for the Seneca Letters Book Club where myself and and other people share their own journal entries. And uh the way that you do it is that uh, you know, you get yourself the Seneca letters, whether it's a book or it's uh free online available. If uh you are subscribed to my newsletter, there's also a direct link to that free version that I like that I recommend. And all you do is you read a letter, and it's easy to read them. They're only many of them are just a few pages long, so it doesn't take very long, which is ideal. And Seneca is so good, he's uh in in always presenting uh an idea that is so relevant to everyone, right? It's not bound in time and his personal culture or anything like that. Uh, he always presents something because he's technically writing these letters to a friend, at least that's how they're written. And so he's always suggesting something. Look, my friend, I want you to see this. And uh essentially we are his friend when we are reading them, and he is our friend. And so he's suggesting something to you in each letter. And the way I recommend doing going about this is not writing in personal terms, meaning when you journal about the idea that you've just read, don't write it like my dear diary, today this happened, and blah, blah, blah. Take yourself out of it. Take all the eyes and me's and minds out of it and see what you can still say. Whatever remains of what you can still say will be of universal and timeless relevance. Because you took your time out of it, you took your person out of it, you took your location, you took all your so-called personal details out of it. So, what remains must be impersonal, meaning relevant to all, not just you or people who know you, but relevant to everyone. And so, if in one letter, again, he talks about pride, right? Then you can say, hmm, what do I think about pride? Or this amazing thing he just said about pride. I never thought about pride in this way before. So I'm gonna focus on that. This is a very interesting concept. I want to write more about, or something came to me as I was reading it, a realization came to me. Write about that realization. Or you read something about pride and you say, but, or kind of like thrill seeking today, but isn't thrill seeking also to a degree good? Like, isn't it joy? Write about that. And Seneca is saying, No, there's no good in thrill seeking. So I you disagree. So why do I disagree? What is it exactly? How can I explain this to myself? As Epicitas says, who better to convince you than you? And so discourse, discourse with yourself, but again, not talking to yourself and also not responding to Seneca, not saying, Dear Seneca, I heard you say this, and uh, don't summarize the letter or anything like that. The letters are just uh starting off point. They're suggesting something to you, they're giving you uh, in my opinion, a timeless and universal idea. And so write about that. Don't mention Seneca, don't mention your own name, don't mention your friend's name, don't mention what happened eight years ago to you on that one night. Don't don't do any of that. Just talk about the idea itself, be a transparent eyeball, right? Don't be a person, just be the awareness that is even behind the person and speak about the idea. What do you think about this concept? What do you uh take from these suggestions? Or what can you not see still, even though Seneca seems so convinced of this? Uh I I don't understand at all why he's saying that. Focus on that. And uh I only suggest this because I did this, right? You before the YouTube channel, before anything, I sat down, uh not every day, maybe but many days of the week. And I and I did this exact thing that I'm talking about, and I did it exactly with the Seneca letters, I did it with Epictetus, uh, I did it with this couple letters, and um all of the insights that are in those books, I was able to extract by doing it like that. Because reading is often not enough. You by by journaling about it, you make it your own. Seneca's great ideas and they can be very interesting, and you agree with some and disagree with some, but there will always be Seneca's ideas, even though they're not his ideas, like when we talk about how pride can be destructive. If Seneca says that, that doesn't mean it's Seneca's idea, it's everyone's idea. But we feel like, oh, you know, as Seneca says, and I believe this, blah, blah, blah. We'll forever keep talking like this about this beautiful idea. But when we journal about it and we say, look, even Seneca didn't see this, or look, I never saw this before. And then I took it, and then wow, something came to me, and then I journaled about that for half an hour or whatever. And I took it come somewhere completely different where the letter was going. Whatever, whatever happens is fine. Not only fine, that's exactly what needs to happen. And when you engage with these ideas like this, even the most ancient ideas will become fresh, and they will become, or at least you will feel like, wow, this is my idea too. I partake in this too. This is mine too. This is all of ours. But I have a personal connection to it. Personal as an uh individual, my way of looking at it, my specific uh perspective on it, which uh I would have never gained otherwise. I would have always looked from someone else's perspective onto it. And so this is the beauty of journaling if done in this in this way. And uh, once again, I only recommend it because I did it exactly like this, and it's been invaluable to me. Invaluable. I would have, I would not give it up for anything. And um you will surprise yourself. I mean, you're gonna want to start quoting yourself, right? Because you'll say, Wow, I I don't even feel like I wrote this. It's just, yeah, I I don't think I read this anywhere, and it certainly wasn't in the letter I just read. It just came to me and I had to write it down. But I I I don't feel like I could have ever come up with this. But again, I didn't take it from somewhere, so it must be from me. So wow, what an amazing thing. This is what the human mind can do if you let it, if you open it up just enough, right? And so this is a beautiful thing. This is what I uh recommend, highly, highly recommend, but not as in do this to get this result. It's just one friend speaking to another. I I just it changed my life, and so I suggest it to you because I want the very best for you. And so you can try then and see if it's um a joy to you and beneficial to you as well, or if it's not, that remains to be seen. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:52

Yeah, I surely want to try and see for myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

All right, and you can start anywhere, you don't have to think because it's still ongoing. We're at letter 105 right now, but uh they're all active, they're all ongoing. You can start at letter one, you can also go to letter 48, it doesn't matter. They're also not connected in the sense that one builds onto another. So it's so free. So free, so wonderful. Um, if there's a bit of resistance to start in the beginning, or if you don't quite, if you're not quite connecting with the first letter, go jump to any other letter. Look at the uh little headlines, what they're kind of about, supposed to be about. Maybe something appeals to you. If that's letter 80, then it's 80. If it's letter two, it's two. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:35

Okay. Okay, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:39

Thank you very much for bringing all this. And again, it's a good opportunity uh as I move you back to the audience to once again remind everyone who's listening um about the Seneca letters. I can only put it there, I can only offer it. I write, I send my entry to you in the newsletter every single week. And um and I post it here on Discord, rather, and I put it everywhere I can, and I talk about it as much as I can, I think. And uh I can only suggest it to you. It is you who then would have to go on and do it, actually. We can't do that for you. Uh it's as far as the practice goes for intellectuals such as ourselves, right? This is, I think, the way to go. It's a beautiful thing. It's at least a way, one of the proper beautiful ways. And so I think we have time for one more speaker, and I will um invite them.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

Pleasure to meet you, Atesh.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Hi, is it your first time speaking?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

Yes, it is. Okay, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so I guess I'll start then.

unknown 1:23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:58

Um a topic I wanted to bring to discussion was the pursuit of becoming someone you want to become, or achieving goals you want to achieve, let's say being a great artist, great writer, engineer perhaps, or from the aspect of it being quantifiable, having your art being in a museum selling X amount of books, creating or engineering something that's benefited an X amount of people. Um, you know, sometimes in the pursuit of of those things, of trying to become someone who is perhaps more virtuous than your current self, uh, sometimes the uncertainty of falling short can become very daunting. Um, so uh something I wanted to uh ask was how what do you think or how do you think someone should reconcile with that? Should we find solace in the very pursuit of the path itself? Or I know it might sound stupid, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. Should one just give up because the improbability of failure is very imminent, or at least seems to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

What is it? Uh, but then whatever, you know, a logistical issue happens, something happens, and we say, okay, enough of that. Uh so many people say, I don't have time for philosophy. It's one of the funniest sentences to me. Because uh philosophy translates directly to the love of wisdom. Who does not have time for the love of wisdom? What what are we living for? Right? If not um knowing the self, if not knowing what beauty is or to experience it, the love of wisdom I do not have time for.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:39

Instead, you know, I I don't have time for the love of wisdom because I still gotta clean the bathrooms, you know. Tomorrow guests are coming into my house. So we have time to clean the bathroom, but we don't have time for the love of wisdom. Amazing. And so this you already are not engaging in anymore. Right? You've put the love of wisdom first. You're talking about how can I get there? How can I become uh the virtuous person that I know is in my capacity, that I know I can do other others have done it, so maybe I can do it too. So you're you're already there, whatever you're you think you need to go. And uh, but on this, I want more clarification. If we are seeing this love of wisdom, if we are seeing that uh everything already is, and we rather than become something, we must merely recognize something in order to have a full, beautiful, joyous uh human experience. If this is seen, if we are reading and we are writing and we are discoursing as we are now, uh, in order to gain more of a vision of what peace really is, of what beauty really is, of what love is. really is or what truth really is. How can we fail in this? Like how is there a danger or even an imminent one, as you said, of failure? How is this possible?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:18

Um should I respond?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:21

Yes please.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:22

Yes. Um well I think the sense of eminent failure might be coming from having the wrong outlook on what it is that we're trying to become only deeming ourselves having become such things by external factors or qualifications rather than the very act of striving towards is what I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

But are you looking to dedicate yourself to virtue for example? Uh yes. So who can take virtue from you?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

I uh would say that my own actions if I deem them to be unvirtuous.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:22

But have do your own actions are they separate from you? Are they some separate entity that has its own mind and uh they can just take the virtues away from you and you're left penniless and broken? Uh no I wouldn't think so. Can virtue be given to you? Um I would like to think that we are the ones that maybe perhaps produce it or have it we are the ones perhaps who will produce it you said Yeah I think the way I look at it at least is our own actions define us.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:13

So based on what I do if it is within alignment of what I deem to be virtuous then I then by action become virtuous.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:29

Ah interesting so you are in need of proving to yourself that you are virtuous by letting actions speak is that is that the idea I think that's mostly the criteria I've been judging myself on yes and and here we again hear I have been judging myself so there's the I and there's the you and the I is judging the you it appears so yes. How many people are you how many people are inside of you just one right so I want to tell you the one that is judging you is not you the one that is judging is a thought construct it's the thought construct that knows what virtue is and what vices let's say if you count um fairness as a virtue right and you uh accidentally treat someone unfairly then there's the thought construct there that knows uh-huh this goes against the rules of fairness of justice and uh that you perceive as a judgment because we are still identifying with thoughts look this is a thought construct this is not you there's only the one you right that's you and this one does not judge the true self does not judge the true self is just of an observing nature it's a seeing nature it does not think and then change its mind and then become a different thing and have several versions of itself oh this version of me was like this this one's like this this one's seeing that one the true self is not like that the true self is behind all of this the true self is one is what is observing the thoughts the emotions the opinions the beliefs and those opinions and beliefs can change and are changing constantly you used to not even know about the virtues then you used to not care about them then you used to care about them a little bit and now you say I am dedicated and perhaps in the future it'll be some other way but behind all of that who is there I would take that one to be the true self not the one that is coming and going and the changing beliefs this is how it is possible for people to say a part of me thinks this way but a part of me knows this is an opinion and this is an opinion and I'm identifying with these things and so I think the opinion of something I am meaning when I see some sort of a car and I say oh that's that's not a car that should be driven by a man that's a that car has a feminine look to me whatever that means okay some people think like this right and so that's an opinion clearly is right it's an opinion and it can be true it can be false it can be all those things but it is an opinion and the one who identifies with the opinion the true self the true self can identify with things if you identify with that opinion then you will think of yourself as the person who is judging that person for driving a car that they should not be driving or whatever or that they should be driving. So becoming a virtuous person recognizing the true self knowing thyself as the ancient Greeks say is not to change oneself but to recognize that the so-called self is just a bunch of opinions just a bunch of thoughts just a bunch of ideas not the true self the true self was the one identifying with them giving them meaning giving them um energy so to speak right approval and so this is what you need to see and this is what is evident when you say I am judging myself I am disappointed in myself I am proud of myself people who speak in this way and I'm not saying everyone who says this thinks that way language is just often indicative of how we think but we can say these things and not actually think that way. That's entirely potent in fact we do because to communicate we have to use this kind of language right but it is indicative and I think that's what's going on uh in this particular scenario here as well where you are identifying with the one who knows that unfairness injustice is not a virtue. And in my opinion this is a true belief but I want to uh show you the irrefutable thing which is that you are not your beliefs I understand you want to have that belief and you want to live your life according to that belief and I think that's a beautiful thing. But you are not the belief. So the belief is not is what asks for proof it says this is the belief actions speak louder than words that's another belief you're identifying with that belief too actions speak louder than words so this idea of what is virtue is combining with this idea of um that actions speak louder than words and from that results another idea and and we call that a thought construct a mental construct and then with that construct you are identifying so it feels like a personality right there because all these opinions all these beliefs all these memories all these ideas going on and when you identify with it that feels like a self it feels like ah this is who I am this is my personality I like this I see this I approve of this I disapprove of disapprove of this and uh I am still lacking in this these are all ideas opinions beliefs judgments but to know thyself as the ancient Greeks say is to be able to observe that and say uh this thing oh I see all the opinions all the beliefs all the ideas all the concepts that are contained in this and uh I think they're good oh this one is not so good I'll throw that away and uh otherwise that seems pretty good okay but you are not this you can work on this like I said you can become more virtuous or whatever you want to call it you can do that but please know that you are working on the role the personality the word personality comes from the word persona and the word persona means mask your personality is a role and there's nothing wrong with having roles the firefighter is a role the firefighter comes and put my puts my house out and saves my life so they decide to be that role as a career as a what they what they're going to do today and that's excellent that's beautiful unless we identify with the role if the firefighter goes home long after the job right the uniform's off where the kids are playing and a dinner dinner served and they're still thinking wow when I uh put out this fire I could have done this faster and this is not my standard I know better I've been taught better I have have all the training I have no excuse to act like this and this is incompetence and because they've identified with the firefighter role which objectively has not been carried out to its fullest potential perhaps now they feel like they are not living up to their fullest potential that they as a as a being as a simple existence they are not quite there where they need to be they are lesser now. And if next week they do something better than expected they say oh I am better now and the sense of self just keeps fluctuating like that depending on what we identify with because that what we can identify with that can and does change all the time and can be impacted and is impacted by external factors chance luck fate if you believe in it natural catastrophes other people's opinions other people's actions certainly all the time and so we feel that other people's beliefs our own beliefs other people's actions our own actions or random events in the world can make us better or can make us worse but what what they are making uh better or worse is not you it's whatever you've identified with the career the object the memory the role the idea of virtue someone can come like right now anyone anyone with a mouth this is the danger of identity this is the danger of identifying with things that we are not anyone with a mouth can come hurt you because you said you've dedicated yourself to virtue which for your personality is a good thing. But if you believe that you are dedicated to virtue that you will be better or worse that you should be judged on your virtuosity then you are going to be open to attack because I right now could say what is virtue to you and then you say well if there are multiple virtues uh in my opinion the chief virtue is justice to do what is right and then I said you don't know what's right or no no no that's not the chief you you've got it all wrong I want to tell you integrity is the chief virtue you don't even know the virtues look even in this little uh fake scenario in this thought experiment you feel a little bit of of offense you can imagine yourself in that scenario and even just uh visualizing that scenario if I really said that and really meant it you can see that you'd be offended and even just visualizing the offense is offending you a little bit just a little bit I'm not saying it's a problem but this is just to show you that you're identifying with this but it is not you you are the one who can act virtuously or not act virtuously and you happen to choose to do your best in the in the daily world to act virtuously as much as possible. You are that one the virtuous or unvirtuous or not quite virtuous enough actions that you do that you end up doing. You are not that those actions can be criticized those actions can be seen as lacking or as almost perfect what an amazing act if you feel better because someone sees your virtuosity even if it's the so-called self, yourself as you said, I want to prove this to myself who are you proving this to if you feel better when this is seen and appreciated a virtuous act or if you feel worse that you yourself or anyone else is seeing that you have not acted as virtuously as you could if you feel one way or another about it that is the giveaway sign 100% guaranteed you are identifying with something that you are not. You are identifying with thought concepts you're identifying with actions you're identifying with the idea that you need to actions prove intentions and you're identifying with the idea that your self-worth your being your existence can be judged by your actions again these can be correct beliefs I'm not saying anything about that because that would just be my opinion but what is not an opinion is that you are not your thoughts your actions without you they do not exist without them you do exist. You have existed before you ever did any virtuous act before you even knew of the word virtue before you ever decided to prove to yourself that you can be more virtuous you were still existing you were still there so you can and did exist before the concept of virtue but the concept of virtue for you cannot exist without you and so which one are you then right and so this is this I offer to you just as a suggestion as it has been pointed out to me I want to pass it on to you can observe that yourself and see if it makes any sense if it shows up in your experience if it adds anything to your understanding your vision of how things are and this you have to experiment with this you be scientific about this make experiments observe and um that's all there is to this is philosophy. This is the love of wisdom to go back to the beginning people do not have time for this they say what is more important to make time for than this to observe to see who am I who am I not what am I am I my actions my thoughts other people's opinions of me am I that when I go to work and I get a performance evaluation am I the performance evaluation? Is that me? If that's not me then why do I feel like I have become worse and I need to become better and I need to do this and then and then I get somewhere why do I think that so the examination of beliefs is philosophy and this we do not have time for I find that amazing and so I hope this uh are at least some things that you have heard now because once you've heard them they can they can be uh observed or um tested seen looked at right and I hope that will help uh this person who is who better become you know if you don't become you're worthless and I don't want to see you again here if you don't get better at virtue I don't want to see you again here okay yeah see this when someone else says it we say is mean this is a mean thing to say this is an unfair thing to say this is an improper thing to say this is a wrong thing to say but when this saying is happening inside of your head you approve of it you say yeah yeah you're so right I need to get better why because you yourself you think you yourself are saying this but it's not it's someone else it's a rude improper mean person saying this but you've identified with that person and that so-called person is the ego is the false self is the not you is an identity and so because it's your identity you think it is you saying this to yourself and that makes it right and proper it is not so just like I can have no right to say it this uh thought has no right to be made into a person by you and in fact to be identified by you as you it has no right is this a little clearer um yeah it's very insightful I have to say uh this idea I'm very new to which is that the identity the persona isn't actually the being it is but a mask you know so throughout the time you were talking I would catch myself asking if this is to be so then who am I you know which I find kind of uh funny and it's something I definitely have to further look into experiment be maybe scientific about it as you said um this is the this is the beginning of the end of the false self when you start to say wait who am I actually because look for all this time all you're thinking about how can I be more virtuous how can I do more of this how can I do less of this how can I overcome this how can I learn this how can I change this without ever asking when I say I who am I talking about right we spend our entire lives thinking about what is good for us what is bad for us and how to avoid one thing and how to get more of the other but we never go further back we always go outside but we never go further back and say wait a minute who is this one that I am working for so once the so-called journey stops going outside and starts turning around and comes back inside and goes deeper than before than where it started out from that's the beginning of the end and it's already the end actually in many ways and so uh a lot of people have a scary experience all of a sudden realize wait a minute I don't even know who I am what you know that that can be scary but again who's scared the the true self is what it is it it always was us now realizing that it was not what we thought it was is not scary to the true self it's scary to the one who was uh sucking energy this whole time from the true being right there's this non-being that is being identified as the being and that one is constantly being fed and approved of and given energy and now this one is scared because the one who actually has the resources is becoming suspicious and is saying should I really be feeding you which I thought was I and so but it doesn't have to be that way right because the truth has never harmed you as we always say and whatever comes out of this is exactly What is reality? And after all, you want to live in reality. You don't want to live in unreality because that's that's what we call delusional, right? People who live in unreality, which is not even possible. And so take it easy, okay? This is again the part of the mind, just like when you were talking about virtue, that is constantly asking, you know, how much longer, what to do next. Uh, what if this doesn't work out the way we thought? What do we do? Don't let don't allow that to come into this as well. Okay. The idea of who you are, which you can only really pursue by learning who you are not. You can never know who you are. Um, at least that's what I believe, and I don't want to say that like it's fact. Uh, examine that belief too. And maybe I'm wrong. But either way, I think it is a very helpful practice to look at all the things that you are not. Say, is am I this? Am I this? Am I this? And by reducing the things that you thought you were, you are inevitably getting closer to that which, um, not getting closer, you are already that what you are. But in terms of the vision of what you truly are, you're taking things out. You're making things simpler, right? And so only what is really you will remain, because that one cannot be taken out. You cannot take yourself out of your identity. You can only take those things out that you can do without. And if you can do without them, you are not them. And if you are not them, why identify with them? Why call them you? Okay. And uh there's no rush, there's no deadline, there's no pressure, there's no time wasted. Everything is conducive to this, everything is a part of this journey, if you want to call it that. It's not really a journey because there's no movement in it. But um again, no pressure, no deadline. Don't allow those ideas, don't identify with those ideas of how much longer and what do we do now. And all our whole life was a lie. We didn't know who we were. That these are all thoughts and ideas and concepts again, not needed. Okay. And we are here, right? This is what this place is for. Um, not only kinship, but this whole community is supposed to be uh a group of aware people who are also observing this, who are also seeing this. And so you can always be here, not as a requirement, not as a need, right? Not as, oh, without this people, without these people, I can maybe not accomplish this. No, no, not like that. Just uh people doing the same thing, right? Just like any hobby, if you like bicycling and you go join other bicyclists, that can be nice. But you don't need other people to ride your own bicycle. And so this is just a pleasure, it's just a joy, and it's full of pointers and suggestions. It's a great place for that. Uh, but that's all it is. And so you can always come back here and we can speak more about this, and you can share more of your insights and say, look, this happened recently, and I've been thinking about this, or I'm still very confused about this, or you know what? I have to say, I totally disagree with you on this, and I wanted to let you know why, because you are my friend, and uh I would like to rescue you from this ignorance that you're in. Um that's the that's one of the most beautiful forms of love, right? And so if we truly love each other, if we truly love our uh common, I mean, I mean our fellow human beings, uh then we we can also do that. Not a requirement, not expected, but it's a beautiful thing to do. And is that not also a virtuous thing to do? Right? So if we are chasing virtue, then this might be a part of it. And so that's a beautiful thing to interact like this. And I thank you very much for your uh fundamental question. This is the question. The question, right? All questions lead to this question. And so it's beautiful. And um thank you so much for bringing it here. I really appreciate it, especially as a first-time speaker. You did not listen to fear, you did not listen to shyness if there is any. Uh, but and you came anyway, and you benefited everyone. So thank you very much for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:26

Likewise, thank you very much. I appreciate the well-thought-out response. It's really insightful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:33

Thank you, thank you. And um, I will move you back to the audience uh with great gratitude. Once again, beautiful, you two are a living example. You are questioning, you are asking, you're examining uh within yourself mostly. And this again, to say it again and again, makes it inevitable that we will gain this vision of peace that which has always been there. I also want to give you the next uh question of the Fortnite. But before I do so, uh quick announcement. Uh, as with some other changes, such as the subscriptions and everything we talked about a little bit before. I am also um I've also decided, at least for now, to reduce the frequency of the kinship meetings, only to replace them with something else. So the kinship meetings, I'm thinking, will also move to a fortnightly schedule, if that's a word, uh, meaning they will happen now every two weeks rather than every week. And but that time I am replacing with a meeting similar to kinship, but it's not going to be recorded. It's not going to be made public. And I'm also going to be conducting it a bit differently. That is to say, I'm actually going to be conducting it in the true sense of the word a little less because I would like some other people whom we meet all the time here who have so many beautiful insights. I want to give them more of time to speak. And I want to maybe, you know, maybe someone comes up and asks a question, and I'm not the one responding to it. Maybe it's someone else. Um, or we do it together and we sort of bring two, three people into it, and we and we discuss an idea and we really think of think it through from different perspectives. And the perspective that we think is benefiting all of us is the right one, is the true one, is going to emerge anyway, you know. Sometimes uh, well, most of the time it's just really me offering a suggestion. And um, I don't know if that's always the best way to go about it. And selfishly also, I'm thinking, you know, if someone comes up here and they have a totally different perspective and it's actually more effective and it's quicker and it's clearer, then I can adopt that um perspective as well. Right? This is the most beautiful form of theft that we should all be engaging in. Um, as our friend Seneca says, everything that is said well is common property. Right? No such thing as copyright in the realm of universal and timeless ideas. And so I want to steal, I want to benefit. And um I also want to give room for other people to uh not only always be asking, but to be able to give and to say, look, I went to the same thing actually uh 10 months ago, last year, whatever, and I came to the kinship meeting and we talked to, and I developed it from there, and I've been journaling and I think and then I want to say this. And I haven't heard that said before, even in the accepting the universe uh space. And so uh that could be a very beautiful thing, and it could be a yet a different form of discoursing, right? There's journaling, there's reading, there's kinship, there's chatting here uh in text form. That that would be yet another form. And that one I want to make um for subscribers, right? So kinship is open for everyone, that's the free option. And uh then there is going to be the very similar kinship that is a a smaller group that is there people, people who have been maybe engaging with these things for longer, and we really concentrate uh on these things, and we have a a closer session, right? Smaller people, uh a little bit more intense, uh, not recorded again. That that can be important because sometimes maybe we don't say things because we know they're gonna live on on the internet or whatever. Uh not me, I don't, uh honestly, but uh it can be, I know it can be a barrier to speaking freely. And so I want to take that away as well. And to be able to do that is just gonna take some extra resources, but I think uh, and that's why it's in a subscription. But even that subscription is is quite low, I have to say. And um I think it will be very much worth it. And so I invite you, of course, all the these people that I'm speaking about, this is you. I'm speaking about you. And so I'd love to see you there. Otherwise, of course, kinship, like I said, is still there just every two weeks now. And it will also take off the load off me a little bit because uh editing these episodes, you know, two, two and a half hour long podcasts with video and sound and multiple participants, that uh takes me the better part of multiple days a week. And so when it's every week, that is really um consuming when we can have all the benefit of speaking even more when it's not recorded, because then I have even more time to do more of this. Um because editing is not really part of the philosophical uh activity that I consider most beneficial. Um so it'll help a little bit that like that too. So it will help spiritually, uh logistically, non-logistically, all these kinds of ways. I think it would be beautiful. Uh, at least it's something to try. It's an experiment at the very least. And so I think it will be beautiful and a whole new way to engage with these ideas and to engage with each other right here and to really build something that is uh greater than ourselves in many ways. And uh so, and yes, that's also where you'll find this meeting. That's where you'll find this shirt that uh you can get if you like it. Again, it's uh it's a free little gift, anyway. And things are changing. Change is good, change is beautiful, right? We're always moving ever closer to the vision of uh how things really are, at least we think so. And so we gotta act on that, and we and we want to move with that. And your new question of the week is quite an amazing one, I think, and it's it's a beautiful one. And uh it sort of builds on the previous one, I suppose. The new question of the week is of the Fortnite is if everything was exactly the way you want it to be, what would you do with your time? If everything was exactly the way you wanted it to be, what would you do with your time?